A Short History of Baptizing Short People / Ben Merkle / Grace Agenda

[@profjblue88]

This was excellent and helpful. Thank you! Can't wait for the 2020 conference videos to be posted.

[@colesmith3185]

This is very interesting and helpful! God bless

[@leviwilliams9601]

God gives faith and saves children. It's all over the bible. Baptism is regenerative and effectual, because of what God does in Baptism. Amen 💯

[@aceyfloyd647]

Are Dr. Merkle's notes for this session available? If so, where can I find them?

[@noeljbass]

"They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea." -1 Cor 10:2 God even baptized the babies amongst His people being saved out of Egypt.

[@ericcarlson9885]

@noelbass8315. Yeah, and then proceeded to kill every last one of them besides Joshua and Caleb! Not exactly what I would wish to baptize MY babies into! (Do YOU baptize your children “into Moses”?)

[@bigtobacco1098]

​@@ericcarlson9885I give my children the covenant sign

[@hanssvineklev648]

⁠@@bigtobacco1098. And what IS this so-called “covenant sign”? No mention of a sign of any kind in 1 Corinthians 7…even though the children of believers are clearly thought of as inside the covenant. There was no sacramental sign given to circumcision of the heart in the OT (and no covenant sign whatsoever for infant females). There is a sacramental sign for faith and repentance in the NT. Baptism. But baptism is never equated with physical circumcision. (Rather, a circumcision made without hands. A circumcision of the heart.) Indeed, baptism is never associated with the covenant in any specified way…other than its association with adult regeneration/faith/repentance. My kids are covered under the actual (invisible) sign of the New Covenant for children: being born to believing parents!

[@bigtobacco1098]

@@hanssvineklev648 circumcision OT

[@bigtobacco1098]

@@hanssvineklev648 baptism NT

[@georgeluke6382]

Would it be possible to get a resource list? Like the quotes from Hillel or the Talmud? Or a copy of the manuscript?

[@NewSaintAndrewsCollege]

Hi, George! We'll ask Dr. Merkle if he has one.

[@guessable]

@@NewSaintAndrewsCollege very interesting talk. Is it not inconsistent to baptize infants but not have them take Lord’s Supper?

[@bamabry]

@@guessable I know it has been a year, but no, it isn't inconsistent. Because 1 Cor. 11 tells us, "For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves.". Infants can't discern the body, so they can't take the Lord's Supper.

[@leviwilliams9601]

​@@guessable We don't withhold anything from young saints. They are Christians, so they get everything Christians get.

[@SpotterVideo]

Old Covenant Baptism vs. New Covenant Baptism (water vs. Spirit) Water baptism was a part of the Old Covenant system of ritual washing. The Old Covenant priests had to wash before beginning their service in the temple. (Ex. 30:17-30) When Christ was water baptized by His cousin John in the Jordan River, He was under the Old Covenant system. He also only ate certain foods, and wore certain clothes, as prescribed by the 613 Old Covenant laws. Christ was water baptized by John and then the Holy Spirit came from heaven. The order is reversed in the New Covenant. A person receives the Holy Spirit upon conversion, and then believers often declare their conversion to their friends and family through a water baptism ceremony. Which baptism makes you a member of Christ’s Church? The New Covenant conversion process is described below. (Born-again) Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, (A person must “hear” the Gospel, and “believe” the Gospel, and will then be “sealed” with the Holy Spirit.) Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. (See Jer. 31:34 for the New Covenant promise, and 1 John 2:27 for the fulfillment) ============ Which baptism is a part of the salvation process, based on what the Bible says? What did Peter say below? Acts 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. Acts 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. Based on Luke 3:16, and John 1:33, and Acts 11:15-16, the most important thing about the word "baptize" in the New Testament has nothing to do with water. The Holy Spirit is the master teacher promised to New Covenant believers in Jeremiah 31:34, and John 14:26, and is found fulfilled in Ephesians 1:13, and 1 John 2:27. Unfortunately, many modern Christians see water when they read the word "baptize" in the text. Based on the above, what is the one baptism of our faith found in the passage below? How many times is the word "Spirit" found in the passage, and how many times is the word "water" found in the passage? Eph 4:1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, Eph 4:2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; Eph 4:3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, (See 1 Cor. 12:13) “baptize” KJV Mat_3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: Mar_1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost. Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (Water or Holy Spirit?, See Eph. 1-13.) Luk_3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire: Joh_1:26 John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not; Joh_1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost. 1Co_1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. (See Eph. 4:1-5) Heb 9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation. (Old Covenant ----> New Covenant) How many people have been saved by the Old Covenant water baptism of John the Baptist? Who did John the Baptist say is the greatest Baptist that ever lived in Luke 3:16? What kind of New Covenant baptism comes from Christ? Hebrews 9:10 Old Covenant vs. New Covenant (CSB) They are physical regulations and only deal with food, drink, and various washings imposed until the time of the new order. (ESV) but deal only with food and drink and various washings, regulations for the body imposed until the time of reformation. (ESV+) but deal only with R5food and drink and R6various washings, regulations for the body imposed until the time of reformation. (Geneva) Which only stood in meates and drinkes, and diuers washings, and carnal rites, which were inioyned, vntill the time of reformation. (GW) These gifts and sacrifices were meant to be food, drink, and items used in various purification ceremonies. These ceremonies were required for the body until God would establish a new way of doing things. (KJV) Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation. (KJV+) Which stood onlyG3440 inG1909 meatsG1033 andG2532 drinks,G4188 andG2532 diversG1313 washings,G909 andG2532 carnalG4561 ordinances,G1345 imposedG1945 on them untilG3360 the timeG2540 of reformation.G1357 (NKJV) concerned only with foods and drinks, various washings, and fleshly ordinances imposed until the time of reformation. (NLT) For that old system deals only with food and drink and various cleansing ceremonies-physical regulations that were in effect only until a better system could be established. (YLT) only in victuals, and drinks, and different baptisms, and fleshly ordinances-till the time of reformation imposed upon them . ======================================================================================================= New Covenant Whole Gospel: Let us now share the Old Testament Gospel found below with the whole world. On the road to Emmaus He said the Old Testament is about Him. He is the very Word of God in John 1:1, 14. Awaken Church to this truth. Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by husband unto them, saith the LORD: Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. Is the most important genealogy in the Bible found in Matthew 1:1 (Gal. 3:16)? Is God's Son the ultimate fulfillment of Israel (John 1:49)? Why has the modern Church done a pitiful job of sharing the Gospel with modern Orthodox Jews? Why would someone tell them they are God's chosen people and then fail to share the Gospel with them? Who is the seed of the woman promised in Genesis 3:15? Who is the "son" in Psalm 2? Who is the "suffering servant" of Isaiah 53? Who would fulfill the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34? Who would fulfill the timeline of Daniel chapter 9 before the second temple was destroyed? Why have we not heard this simple Old Testament Gospel preached on Christian television in the United States on a regular basis? Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, man-made Bible doctrines fall apart. Let us now learn to preach the whole Gospel until He comes back. The King of Israel is risen from the dead! (John 1:49, Acts 2:36) We are not come to Mount Sinai in Hebrews 12:18. We are come instead to the New Covenant church of Mount Zion and the blood in Hebrews 12:22-24. 1Jn 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. 1Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. 1Jn 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us. Watch the KZbin videos “The New Covenant” by David Wilkerson, or Bob George, and David H.J. Gay.

[@thereisnopandemic]

I really thought this was about Baptizing Dwarfs or Midgets, I would think it’s no different from baptizing regular sized persons.

[@dallaswalter3047]

Yup I'm leaning pretty hard TR right about now

[@evangellyfishlife8479]

Do you have any source material for Proselyte baptism?

[@Iffmeister]

Actually there is one mistake. Proselytes were baptized as entire families and the practice continues to this day.

[@evangellyfishlife8479]

Do you have any source material for the things you’re saying, source material actual documents prior to the time of Christ that teach Proselyte baptism, Or are you talking about something written much later that would be based upon tradition or the Jewish counter reformation? I know Jay Adams says in his book on baptism that proselyte baptism is a myth and that he could not find any source material for the idea prior to Christ.

[@evangellyfishlife8479]

Hello

[@Iffmeister]

@@evangellyfishlife8479 Jewish Proselyte Baptism and It's Relation to Christian Baptism by Glen W. Mell

[@Iffmeister]

Judaism in the First Century of the Christian Era - G.F. Moore

[@Iffmeister]

The first one mentions Hillel

[@Iffmeister]

Jewish Proselyte Baptism and the Baptism of John - H.H. Rowley

[@HannahClapham]

Good talk with a couple of exceptions: 1. I thought his assertion concerning babies being self-evidently part of NT households was pretty much indefensible. Every mention but one (Lydia, I think) includes actions infants cannot do: listening to the word, responding in faith and repentance. 2. His other assertion that a change in the spiritual status of infants wouldn’t have been met with silence. And why not? Did you really have a lot of believers answering back to Jesus, “You can’t do THAT!?” Did they really respond with, “Even though the people of God will now be a people united by faith rather than ethnicity, SURELY that cannot mean that inclusion in the covenant will be awarded on the basis of faith, right?” Silence would have been the order of the day. Saying otherwise is a silly notion, which he clearly hasn’t thought through enough.

[@mkshffr4936]

Svineklev: Jesus would likely have already ascended before the question of the application of the sign of the covenant came up. It would have been a question that the Apostles and elders of the church would address. It is incomprehensible to me that such a radical change would have been universally assumed by Jewish believers.

[@brycemitchell6343]

Interesting, unless an infant is deaf, they definately can hear the word. Both faith (Philippians 1:29) and repentance (2 Timothy 2:25) are gifts from God. Seeing as salvation is for "you and your children" I think it is reasonable to believe that God would grant faith and repentence to the infants of Christians if you petitioned Him for it.

[@ridgetheh2obuffalo246]

@@brycemitchell6343 amen to that. I am not a Lutheran, but I totally agree, and it is absurd to say God couldn't do such a thing.

[@samueljimenez7420]

I’ve been baptist my whole life and am now leaning paedo like 55% to 45%. Part of the reasons is these arguments. 1. Your first point doesn’t take into account that circumcision also was a sign of faith by the adult believers and yet, the baby was circumcised too. They could not process faith. I’m not fully convinced cause I’m sure there’s a baptist out there that may have an answer to this. 2. There are a few accounts in the earl church history where challenges arise to the continuity of Jewish tradition. Again, he mentioned circumcision is debated for gentiles in the early church. Whether gentile Christians had to abstain from eating certain foods. Whether gentile Christians should do as the Judaizers. It is actually very believable from his point to ask the question, if it was meant to end WHY is there silence on it.

[@ericcarlson9885]

@@samueljimenez7420 I don’t know that it’s clear that circumcision in the OT was a “sign of faith” for anyone other than Abraham. Sarah was clearly included in the Covenant, her name was changed and she bore Isaac, the child of the promise. (And yet WITHOUT any ritual sign.) Ishmael was circumcised and yet WAS NOT part of the Covenant. All of Abraham’s servants (and probably a good number of his extended family) were circumcised without any stipulation that they be of faith. (The Schechemites-in Genesis 34-were circumcised… without being asked to convert to Abraham’s faith.) Circumcision was seen as obedience to the Covenant. A Covenant of physical blessings and curses (a land, a people, political stability, economic and agricultural success). To this day, Jews consider their children to be in the Covenant AT BIRTH. I’m not aware of any biblical verses that promise to transmit faith to our progeny. We are exhorted to hand convictions on best we can. The hearts of parents can be turned toward their children, and the hearts of children toward their parents. But no promises are ever made. Not that I am aware of. Personally, I really don’t like certain types of arguments from silence. Catholics absolutely LOVE to claim that there was no recorded pushback against purgatory or Marian devotion or the invocation of the saints or the sacrifice of the Mass. Do YOU plan to accept all those things just because there was no recorded controversy concerning them? (There was also no recorded mention of them before around 250 AD.)

[@berglen100]

Your funny, classic first Adam. God and his name is I AM! When you point to another as an authority in your world, you are transferring the power that belongs to God to an idol. Now, if you call for anything with the name of God, and his name is I AM, and you say I AM . . are you not your own maker? God is, for I AM! I kill and I make alive, I wound and I heal. I create the light and I form the darkness and besides me there is no other God. Whatever I want, I must assume the full responsibility for it. If I want to conjure health and the doctors tell me I cannot overcome my illness and I believe them, I have made my choice and must accept the responsibility for it. But if I dare to assume health, God is proclaiming it, for he has no name other than I AM! This is the grand revelation found in the third chapter, the 14th verse, of Exodus. “Go and tell them `I AM has sent me to you.’ “Whatever you declare, is; for God’s name is any form of the verb to be, whether it is I AM, I was, or I will be.

[@nkbc5819]

Sounds very Roman Catholic

[@leviwilliams9601]

And....

[@fivestar1836]

baby sprinklers, tsss

[@leviwilliams9601]

Is that an argument?