Accelerationism & Capital with Nick Land

[@danielsacilotto3196]

Wonderful interview. Best part from Nick: "I can't accept the circle of the impossibility of escape, because I think obviously it is the opposite. I think it is the impossibility of stopping the escape. But the escape is not for us. It is from us. This is the phenomenon we are dealing with." "

[@jacobloving6765]

Daniel Sacilotto that just gave me a psychedelic trip.

[@markymark863]

Real question. How do you guys feel about this idea of transcending humanity with technology? I find it highly disturbing, undesirable, and quasi-religious.

[@markymark863]

@Gökhan Turhan My life has been hell myself, so I know a lot buddy, but your humanity is all you have. Without it, you are nothing. This idea is nihilistic, immoral, and Totalitarian. It's just not psychologically healthy. If you told a psychologist that you want to sacrifice your humanity so you dont have to feel anymore, they would think you needed serious help.

[@markymark863]

@Gökhan Turhan How can you not see how artificial and inhuman this is? And how it is exactly identical to religious salvation myths of eternal life? Btw, only the ultra wealthy will be able to afford this, so yes it will be a totalitarian society, the poor will be ruled by the ubermensch. Just try to see how dangerous this idea is. Think it through.

[@markymark863]

@Gökhan Turhan I'm thinking I don't want an immoral, inhuman, totalitarian future.

[@assemblyofsilence]

There’s a Taoist saying along these lines: “to be competent but appear incompetent is correct in principle”.

[@nicko8118]

3 mins in and we are at schizogenic lemurs

[@unconsciousabyss487]

Isn't that syzygytic lemurs?

[@nicko8118]

@@unconsciousabyss487 you say szygytic i say schizogenic let's call the whole thing off

[@unconsciousabyss487]

@@blktarhero3337 SYZYGYTIC

[@karlm7324]

what are they @@unconsciousabyss487

[@unconsciousabyss487]

@@karlm7324 hyperstition.abstractdynamics.org/archives/003933.html

[@black_eagle]

This guy sounds like a Lovecraft character who has had personal contact with Yog-Sothoth.

[@heffalump111]

which is why we all love him

[@sonder152]

Lol true

[@sonder152]

Capital reminds me of the Demon Choronzon. It is noise, excess, dispersion, destruction. The only way to defeat it is through Silence.

[@abraxasfraxinus7744]

3 3 3

[@FirstMatterCreative]

@@abraxasfraxinus7744synchronistic

[@saturnFIV3]

Do you gave any books recs that bridge the gap between political philosophy and occultism?

[@donniedewitt9878]

A gem of an interview. A Peak from the outside in

[@SororIenai]

Mindmelting new territory for me,but from what little I can grasp at the present moment-the section on time is invaluable.

[@sonofphilip8229]

St. Augustine talks about time is similarly insteresting ways in Confessions bk 11.

[@katori991]

Wow! I also thought about it while watching. Glad you mentioned it too

[@intergalacticsnail8688]

*_*iconic lip smack*_*

[@n1mbusmusic606]

A fave person says "this is what it looks like when a species prepares to depart for the stars, its a fire in a madhouse".

[@Linkolite]

Is that a Terence McKenna quote?

[@n1mbusmusic606]

@@Linkolite indeed

[@ethanfleisher1910]

Yup he's definitely got his own psychedelic twist to accelerationism. Only he wavered as to whether the transformation would be a psychic inversion into a kind of weirdly Jungian innerspace or an explosion into literal outerspace. He seemed to place cyberspace between these modes in a lot of his lectures.

[@n1mbusmusic606]

@@ethanfleisher1910 he like me became a ruthless space capitalist toward the end of his life See "emanation of wisdom" and "we are frustrated monkeys".

[@metaronin]

I will quote Ms De’Rosario now, if I may: ‘The five entities each correspond to a “Barker-twinning” or “Syzygy”, the pairings which make up 9 (1/8, 2/7, 3/6, 5/4, 9/0) and which together constitute the “Pentazygon” (“Five-twin”). The first three of these beings make up “the cycle of time”, whilst the other two are – in some sense – “outside” sequential time. The cycle the system describes, Trent points out, is “multi-levelled”; it is also, for instance, also a story about the journey from land to sea and back again.

[@Linkolite]

Right off the bat asking the significance of the number 5… I love this dude

[@Andrialfos]

What is radically interesting in the discussion between the transition from Roman to Arabic/Hindu numerals and how an alphanumeric Kabbalistic system uses the old and ancient in the outbreak of modernity. Thinking about modern AI and in particular the introduction of LLMs makes me think that another radical change had happened. Indeed, to some extent in an LLM we pass an input (tokenized properly by a word tokenizer). That input which is broken up into tokens is going to "pass" from a so-called embedding layer. What this embedding layer does is to give a representation of the word into "space" in the form of a vector. Although, this is not exactly alphanumeric Kabbalah. A word is still converted not to a single numeral but a vector of numerals, and this is not done in a way that a specific rule is applied to induce this word representation in "space". The process is more alchemical in a sense that a specific rule cannot be devised. The LLM uses more or less probabilistic pattern matching to bring similar patterns to be close in "space" according to their alchemically induced embedding. I am wondering what would Nick think about that. That somehow there is a shift from the "static" (in form, not in meaning) alphanumeric Kabbalistic systems to the more alchemical and dynamic devices that LLMs are using.

[@Mom-ii5jn]

That's numberwang!

[@walkergoff3127]

Lol Land’s five should be obvious: Kant, Nietzsche, Deleuze, Guattari, Bataille.

[@ManyDog]

Replace Nietzsche with h.p. Lovecraft

[@ares1670]

​@@ManyDogWith Zero H.P.

[@suicidalbomber8048]

I would put Heidegger there too.

[@katepriest346]

Did Land really reference an Elon Musk quote from a Joe Rogan episode?

[@joeessig3550]

The guy was internet before internet, he keeps up well.

[@captainradio5894]

Lol nothing strange about that tbh

[@gershengel4049]

We have a discord server now, feel free to join: discord.com/invite/5KdBdEj

[@duffdingelmeyer7101]

No surprise to hear him hanging on fraudster Elon's words as if they're anything but marketing.

[@RobWalker1]

Great that you had Nick on

[@togo7022]

"is there something going on with this five thing" why is he so funny 💀 😂

[@farzanamughal5933]

are you a woman

[@Bigglesworthicus]

How many Syzygytic Lemurs does it take to change a lightbulb?

[@ouldonaunt3262]

you should have asked Land how he explains the concept of an arrow of time, and the intelligibility of the universe. why human beings can make intelligible and differentiate the direction of causality, in a forward and reverse direction. land seems to be utilising an idea of time, by using the angel of history as a metaphor, in contrast.

[@ffff-qw7sp]

if you're interested in this the answer lies within deleuzian conception of strata and his idea of the passive synthesis of the present. For him the passing present is constituted at the level of physical substance which has an internal movement of organization or mapping from the particular towards the general, and this constitutes the arrow of time. The strata are these quasi transcendental systems which guarantee this type of mapping.

[@nikcherb4946]

@@ffff-qw7sp can you elaborate on this? 'particular to general' sounds like entropy which is a pretty common materialistic way of looking at time

[@ffff-qw7sp]

@@nikcherb4946 deleuze explicitly associates it with entropy in difference and Repetition. He basically makes the claim that The scientific notion of entropy is an empirical representation of a transcendental structure of time. And this gets into some really weird interesting non linear stuff in Deleuze. Because for you to have entropic processes: movement from Particular to the general, you need to be Sandwiched between strata. But strata are defined by reversibility of process. To stratify matter means to produce stable structures which are not subject to irreversible change. To quickly do a metaphor, the strata position themselves as the riverbed for the river which they condition. Or rather it's the idealist conception of the strata that positions them as an unchanging riverbed, the matterialist conception of the strata is that they are eddies in the river, negative feedback loops that seek to keep a system in equilibrium. So the paradox here is that you only have entropy where there is stratification, but the process of entropy is actually an inadequate empirical representation of a transcendental principle conditioning the formation of strata

[@sham6563]

This slept on

[@heffalump111]

best philosopher ever

[@reinarforeman6518]

Calm down

[@Mischwesen_official]

@@reinarforeman6518 I guess u lack of euphoria in your life that’s why u judge it in others

[@blktarhero3337]

Who was it that conceptualized the 6 classic characteristics of money, and where can I read on the full theory?

[@theory_underground]

curious to hear an answer to this

[@gamer46653]

The greeks

[@gerardlabeouf6075]

0:16 hermitix question 3:55 your definition of accelerationism going from Justin Murphy's interview : "Accelerationism is fundamentally For tech's trajectory from cybernetics and it's a positive feedback process it's an all consuming loop or recursion which subsequently consumes everything into it" is that correct? 5:15 in what sense do you see the capital of accelerationism as different from the kind of classical almost deification of marx's capital? (as in capital becomes very quickly an overarching thing with a capital T which ultimately can consume and subsumes everything into it, and once you have that framework nothing is actually able to escape this god like structure of capital) 9:00 john cussans(from the "bataille, land, fisher, zombies" episode) said "back in the 90's there was a split between nick land and Mark fisher where they both applied cybernetics and thermodynamics to freud's beyond the pleasure principle" (applying inhuman and artificial processes to more classical and anthropomorphic frameworks ) . Do you think any world or any possibility beyond capital for the human is entirely naive and nostalgic? 11:12 what happens to the human in your vision of your future? 14:00 do you think the humanist party's resistance will be strong enough to stabilize itself as something post capital? 23:30 So is Exit from capital a transcendental error? 25:50 is the impossibility of escape a form of determinism which is separate to the one of general :"do we have free will" debates? 28:56 if there metaphysical confusion then what is the correct view? 30:28 The ways that time is placed for you is waves of time that drag us towards an event instead of having the event happening and we can't play out words without places to go? 35:30 Have you left out entirely Heidegger's reading of time there? 38:40 can you utilize accountancy and math in general as a kind of metric for accelerationism? 39:40 With that there is some connection with the ccru and the numogram stuff;do you think there is a kind of kantian (phenomenal, noumenal) connection between the accountancy of accelerationism and your interest in things such as the qabbalah (hermetic qabbalah)? 45:10 is accelerationism inherently a theory of time? 45:40 so is this strange numerical system birthed alongside the thing (the unameable capitalism)? 46:40 so one could read the birth of 0 qabbalah and capitalism as the birth of this sort of decimal labyrinth? i (@Gerardlabeouf) have no idea if nick land was talking about kabbalah qabbalah or cabala I (@Gerardlabeouf) would tend towards saying it is probably qabbalah because of its numerology use, To my (@Gerardlabeouf) knowledge there is no numerology use in cabala nor kabbalah (but prove me (@Gerardlabeouf) wrong) 47:53 are you happy to talk about the numogram in relation to this? (the numogram as a device in relation to this) 49:53 Is there anything else that you are thinking of that you would want to bring up in relation to accelerationism or philosophy 50:30 are you still working on the bitcoin book? 51:00 Since Absolute kantian time physically (in a way) within the world, successive blocks of Time, what comes from this? ((@Gerardlabeouf) supposedly talking about the blockchain of bit coin being analogous to absolute kantian time ) 53:15 Is your task with the bitcoin book to refine philosophy in a world that now has absolute time? or is it to utilize the blockchain as a new means towards time in relation to accelerationism? 54:50 What stage are you at?, what problem is being tackled? 57:35 In relation to a book that talked about money as symbolic , and the author also mentions that contemporarily, this symbolic viewof money as an actual value has been removed, and doesn't bitcoin completely brings this back (because you legitimately have the value) 59:30 Do you agree with Elon musk saying "if humanity becomes nothing but a bootloader for Ai that would not be so bad"? 1:00:20 Do you see any similarities between techno-economic singularity and nietzsche's vision of the ubermensch?

[@christopherthompson4037]

Does anyone know where Land is grabbing Mao's take on Capital? (Mushrooms popping up in a Forrest)

[@tresojos]

Somewhere in the first 10 mins

[@luisescalante9841]

Ok now, interview Reza Negarestani

[@billytitus1519]

Yes

[@txoricin]

No.

[@vishmonster]

Maybe.

[@tdqpmusic]

Yes (2)

[@scriabinismydog2439]

Yes (3)

[@informationsuperkhan]

I understand what his assertions are, but each time I think we’re getting close to a justification for them he just recurses ten times until we’re all the way at the bottom where it just becomes “a metaphysically confused question to ask.” It’s probably just outside of the limit of my ability to make sense of it, and Nick Land has been incredibly interesting to me before, but I gotta say it feels a little like charlatanry. I don’t think to wonder about determinism is to fundamentally misunderstand time lol.

[@jsquire5pa]

Welcome to continental philosophy

[@unclesteeze1026]

IMO he was saying that to pit those two positions (determinism and free will) against each other as two opposing theories was to fudamentally misunderstand. because those positions both lie under the same way of understanding time. Which Land thinks is wrong. The idea being that time is linear and sequential. To believe in determinism OR free will is to believe that time is sequential and linear. Hence the metaphysical aspect of the confusion. His view on time doesnt encorporate those views into it

[@billytitus1519]

I think you are wrong and right. Not a Landian guy per se. Final causality and efficient causality are not mere accomplishes - he did not say “opposing” or “opposing theories” - they are not merely complicit but two ways of looking at the same thing. Causality is always final, and it is therefore always efficient. Does that make sense? Finality is necessarily efficient, as efficient as can be, because it is final. Pondering determinism and free will is similarly illogical and a neoplasm. Free will can only be born from determinism and are the same. Misunderstanding that means you misunderstand time; it is always causal, it is always efficient in the finality of its causality because even the temporality in which causality is housed will be causally determined. And the trajectory cannot be altered once originally instigated. Hence one could be said to misunderstand time if you misunderstand this.

[@expedition346]

@billytitus1519 haha first time ive seen someone typo “pleonasm” as “neoplasm” anyway, all this talk about “time” and “causality” or whatever is linguistic idealism. please exorcise it

[@heressomestuffifound]

34:30 What? I mean results follow actions… I’m missing something here because this seems abstract to the point of absurdity. Someone help me understand what’s being said here about time?

[@tinyf666]

no you're not missing anything you're just making the same metaphysical mistake he is describing time isn't something generating from time

[@rafi429]

Great philosopher

[@supermaxito1473]

Zero proofs, zero doubts

[@katori991]

Zero proves* Thats the only thing wich tells the truth

[@expedition346]

proofs*. its the noun

[@intergalacticsnail8688]

puts video on 2x playback speed: _a c c e l e r a t e_

[@5hiranai]

lel

[@CruderQuotient1]

Can anyone explain the Lemurs to me? Thanks

[@ImagoCanis]

he defined capital as anything done efficiently enough to produce surplus, but there’s nothing in any marxian/anti-calitalist ideology that defines capital that way. he could’ve just done what deleuze/guattari did and say that the marxian tradition of socialism/communism is in most cases industrial, and that industrial society itself is a totality that can’t be held accountable. land really just did experienced ego-death a bunch and tried to make his neurological troubleshooting into philosophy

[@moscamuerta]

Very important insight

[@benedictharrison2819]

but why does capital's definition have to be linked to everything Marx said. Postmodern philosophers have famously disagreed with Marx's terminology and definitions. Baudrillard contended with Marx's 3 values and added a 4th, whilst many other philosopher's have edited or conflicted with Marx

[@ImagoCanis]

@@benedictharrison2819 you replied a year later and i still can tell you didn't watch enough of the vid to know what i was commenting on. why did you do that?

[@soulfuzz368]

@@ImagoCanisyou just described how all philosophy is created.

[@dangerousideas5356]

@@benedictharrison2819 if you're advocating for unfettered capitalism, then you should definitely contend with what is commonly thought of as the most rigorous critique of capital. one does that by sharing definitions of things, otherwise you'll just argue passed it and miss back and forth.

[@CAVEDATA]

The only escape is reckoning with identification.

[@expedition346]

>(rightly) identifies “free will vs determinism” as metaphysics >introduces his own metaphysical concept of time anyway

[@buni2196]

Ontology doesn't equal meta-physics, he is specifically talking about taking time from the perspective of physics and heideggerian ontology

[@nopasaran191]

I can’t tell if the picture is a gopher or a squid or an alien

[@hammerain93]

Kant is a compatibilist as far as I can tell. If Nick shares Kant's view of transcendent time, doesn't that just make him a compatibilist also? If not: does Nick's position on free-will/determinism have a name?

[@ancapistan]

kant is an epistemic compatibilist since freedom and determinism are both grounded in the pure ideas of reason and forms of intuition respectively; but hes a noumenal realist or libertarian about freedom re: grace, gods will, providence, etc.

[@unclesteeze1026]

his position on free-will/determinisim might be error-theory

[@AhemLd]

Nietzsch

[@hb8213]

humanity will win 😤

[@Mischwesen_official]

life wins

[@avoidbeing]

the 5 syzygetic lemurs: uttunul (9:0): 'eternal,' 'utter,' 'null': flatline, void, eternity as no-time, linked to hell and old myths. mur mur (1:8): French 'mer,' 'mermaid': sea beasts, deep ocean time, scared of oddubb, ancient serpent. oddubb (2:7): 'duplicity,' Macbeth’s witches’ incantations: amphibious, double-agent, dislikes katak’s dryness. djynxx (3:6): 'jink,' 'jinx,' Moroccan Djinn: changeling, erratic movement, tied to myths of child abduction. katak (5:4): 'attack,' 'kataklysm': desert, heat, werewolf vibes, disaster bringer, hates mur mur.

[@nicklandable]

Is Nick Land's bitcoin book ever going to come out ? (do excuse stupid question should it be available)

[@Urdatorn]

He put it up for free online, easy to find.

[@nicklandable]

@@Urdatorn Many thanks.

[@Urdatorn]

@@nicklandable Wow, just saw your avatar is the demon Thotsakan from Thai khon drama, which I love! Are you Thai?

[@padankirk5062]

Am I the only one who doesnt think hes absolutely insane lmao? Maybe im too gen Z.

[@danielk3919]

He really isn't, the methhead meme is just that a meme, if you listen to his section on time you can see just how coherent his thoughts are. People just like to bring this up to dismiss anything he says because they don't like his politics. If you want a good critique against him listen to what Ray Brassier and Mark Fisher said about his writings, they actually bring up valuable points without bringing up "haha meth made him stoopid"

[@tlayudah8tr]

Nah he does sound insane lmfao looking at his Twitter and shit bro’s just kinda off it

[@gindphace]

@3:05 who is the great philosopher Land mentions?

[@waahaah861]

He isn't mentioning anyone, I don't know much about CCRU literature but the things he's mention are "lemurs". They trancend our conditions and move through time differently idk.

[@woddlyoats]

Deleuze

[@tresojos]

​@@waahaah861 which theory or framework is this concept of lemurs from?

[@tresojos]

Deleuze?

[@albioninexile6610]

​@@tresojos CCRU, p.33 Lemurian Time Wars

[@bielpr2009]

16:00

[@oo88oo]

Black markets are proof of the persistence/essentalism of capitalism. Capitalsm IS human agency.

[@dontbothertoreply9755]

The human action to be more precise.

[@richidpraah]

Markets aren't exclusive to capitalism - nor is agency lol

[@9393Technate]

@@richidpraah TRUUUUUUUUUUUUuu

[@expedition346]

@oo88oo you are quite retarded and ignorant of much of human history

[@togo7022]

why is nick land so hilarious? lmaoooo

[@KingLightDividing]

Kabbitalism

[@annikafrankenstein]

The Lemurs?!?!

[@sui5193]

Nick "you know" Land

[@greenglasful]

what's the difference between the value of owning a bitcoin and the value of owning a bar of gold, under your bathtub...?

[@mattd8725]

Thieves can steal your bitcoin remotely instead of having to tear up your plumbing to get at your gold. Gold is also less harmful to the environment since while it takes more effort to get more from the environment as time goes on it doesn't have exponentially expanding energy requirements to mine. Projects like Bitcoin are prototype paperclip maximizers.

[@scooterspencer9077]

He sounds like Ron jonson....oddly

[@gerardlabeouf6075]

Stewie griffin got that big brain

[@andreacvecic]

6 philosophers in a room should incoate a symposion?

[@Portekberm]

Please try to again 😁😁😁😁

[@alexanderfuchs8742]

this what happens to a mfer if they abandon schopenhauer in favor of nietzsche

[@mattd8725]

"Uhm it's really difficult uhm paranoia uh um mushrooms, mushroom, mushroom." I wonder why he isn't a well-known media figure whose interviews have millions of views on youtube.

[@misterkefir]

I don't know why, but it's even funnier when I read it then when I hear him say it.. Hilarious.

[@gamer46653]

This is definitely not the reason he isn't a media figure

[@woddlyoats]

Oh fuck is that a ccru reference

[@nickcove]

Nick sounds like cigarettes

[@tresojos]

You want to put him in your mouth?

[@naushadahmed8090]

maybe that's why Miyazaki was saying "anime was a mistake".

[@jumbolumohi7679]

Why is it that they talk SO long about trying to extinguish all capital? Who wants to do that? Isn’t the point of socialism to create a system in which the capital is controlled by the laborers who generate it?

[@doublenegation7870]

@@aaa4455 capital isn't money. The fk you speaking for Marxists if you have no clue what Marxism is?

[@ryan.1990]

Got an ad for anti-viral handwash being used by two wholesome lesbians. Peak dystopia advertising.

[@tresojos]

Please share

[@huntertony56]

Wtf is going on but I love it

[@XanarchistBlogspot]

The content is interesting but if you want to hold the listener's interest you need to turn down the gain so it isn't clipping all the time which is really annoying.

[@user-gn6wz9fe1c]

is he high or incapable of coherent expression lmao.

[@Matt77125]

hes overdosed on blackpills

[@tellurianapostle]

@@Matt77125 and anphetamines

[@misterkefir]

Probably both. He can write pretty well though.

[@woddlyoats]

Nick land is a multi contextual thinker than can view multiple view points at once.

[@expedition346]

@woddlyoats cope. ride land so hard

[@andy845]

30:00

[@erichruyalves]

land sounds like stewie griffin

[@julesdudes853]

dam i guess agricultural farmers in feudal europe must've been capitalist since they did a self-perpetuating activity. whoop-de-doo! fucking amazing how his whole worldview comes from misunderstanding what capital is and turning it into this cosmic eternal entity

[@cyber5659]

Well they where, issue is that there existed these "carbon control rods" in Lands term to keep Capital in check. These are your traditions, mathematics without Zero, Feudal arrangements and so on. The arrival of Zero is the technocapital singularity that captures Earth and causes the control rods to be pulled out leading to the Capital meltdown and ever expanding intensity of the positive feedback loop which Capitalism and modernity depends upon. Pre-modernity saw Capital being soaked up by humans and monkey business, post-singularity see Capital escaping and pushing new limits with humanity unable to controll it.

[@cyber5659]

Without Zero you can't have accounting and modern business, it's the leap that allows for the feedback loop to go into overdrive and push ahead.

[@thotlinemiami6627]

Brainlet

[@KingLightDividing]

Read Deleuze and Guattari and you will understand where he is coming from.

[@matthiuskoenig3378]

I mean feudal European agricultural farmers considered themselves owners of capital (spelled capitale back then) since the 12th century. and they were very much seeking profits.

[@kataliyun226]

TRANSCRIPT!

[@BillyBob-xo6fc]

You could literally just give all the companies to the workers though and then it's done.

[@Linkolite]

No because then you’ve traded power from a few historical lineages and conventional power structures to an entire mob of idiots. I’m not sure how that is any better.

[@expedition346]

that isnt merely how socialism is to be done

[@expedition346]

blatant idealist (anthropomorphizing, determinist) garbage..”positive feedback loop” is a mere description without predictive value…a mere model that purports to have considered every data point…

[@dantean]

Worst opening to an interview in the entire history of recorded time.

[@johnnybourgeois13]

O sweet divine Jayziz. Bored out my brain by 5 minutes.

[@poopistbaby]

big word make my brain sad :(