Ace 3000 The Last Modern Steam Design Never Built

[@asteamsavant9994]

The ACE 3000 was not the last modern steam locomotive design, that would be the 5AT. I recently recorded and released a discussion with Ross Rowland in which we discuss the ACE 3000. The ACE 3000 was far too complicated to develop from the onset. Also David Wardale hated the ACE 3000. He had no hand in developing the ACE 3000 specifically. He joined ACE on the condition that he would be allowed to leverage it's resources to develop more traditional looking and sounding super efficient locomotives for export to developing countries. The 2-10-0 locomotive Porta suggested at the onset was a triple expansion third generation locomotive that would have been more efficient and less expensive to build and maintain than the ACE 3000.

[@TheRailroadCrossing-SteamPower]

I am pinning this response to the top... GREAT INFORMATION!!!

[@davidhill3724]

Do you have that video posted somewhere i would love to watch it

[@asteamsavant9994]

@lroadCrossing-SteamPower All of the extra features of the ACE 3000 were added to fulfill the desires of the railroads and rail worker unions. The goal was to make it as operationally similar to a diesel as possible. The synchronous opposed duplex was added to reduce hammer blow as much as possible to minimize extra maintenance on the track. The closed condensing system was added to eliminate the need to reinstall water collection infrastructure. The forward comfort cabs and computer controlled automated firing system were added to appease rail unions because they would not tolerate traditional steam locomotive operating conditions. Computer controlled automated firing was also supposed to allow for remote coupling of units to appease the rail company's desire for operational flexibility. All of these features reduced the reliability and efficiency of the design compared to Porta's original proposal. Developing a successful locomotive with all of these experimental features was practically impossible for such a small R&D team.

[@Posttrip]

We just need a passionate Elon Musk type steam enthusiast to come along.

[@manga12]

@@TheRailroadCrossing-SteamPower if you really want to talk of it you need to talk to gary bensman of diversified rail, he worked alongside Mr. Livio Dante Porta there was also a proposed ace 4000 project talked about in the coalition for sustainable railroading, now mind you though ross roland did have a vested intrest he had money in coal but it would have been really something had it been developed, coal is dirty but and effecent engine could have cleaned up a lot of it, and we got 200 years of it they say but getting it is going to ruine the landscape of appalacia by flattopping mountains and ruining water supplies, but making a sellable machine they were aiming too big too fast, though the tests with 614 show the power of steam even in the most inhospitable weather the usa can dish up I met a guy that also helped out there beside just Gary Bensman, who told me mr porta was just as nice a person as he was an engine designer. those are Garys words

[@davidpresnell1734]

Coal is also a fossil fuel. I used to split coal chunks and find leaf impressions.

[@TheRailroadCrossing-SteamPower]

I did too as a kid. Good fun!

[@natehill8069]

The initial prototype needs to have a) condenser tender, b) MU-able electronic controls, c) opposed pistons to mitigate reciprocating loads on the track and increased thermal efficiency.

[@leestokes6761]

Correction on U.S. oil imports statement: thanks to fracking, the U.S. is energy independent. We, in fact, are net Exporters of both crude oil and natural gas (in the form of LNG).

[@TheRailroadCrossing-SteamPower]

Currently, yep...

[@natehill8069]

I remember reading about the ACE-3000 about 20+ years ago. Seems like this would be AWESOME for hauling coal.

[@peterd.9893]

One of my ultimate favorite unbuilt steam locomotives of all time! I love it to pieces! I actually made a wooden model of this locomotive, but unfortunately I hadn’t added details to it. still a cool train!

[@TheRailroadCrossing-SteamPower]

Very cool!

[@douglasengle2704]

Thank You revisiting the January 1985 testing of the 614T through the Kanawha and New River Vally's. I was attending EE studies at WV Tech Montgomery WV along the CSX mainline where this testing was going on. I watched that steam locomotive get stopped in town when about 3°F on an upgrade with full load of coal cars behind it. I thought the dispatcher must be nuts, because a steam locomotive on start up was likely to throw out thick black smoke and some cinders when starting at max load through and this was a heavily populated town. On startup the 614T engineer, probably Ross Rowland, used the exhaust steam jet that shot steam up 100 feet in the air or more then in the cold 3°F temperature it exploded out into a thick white cloud against the crystal clear blue winter sky. The steam continued to expand across the valley sky and rise on its own accord up the 1000-foot deep valley. As the locomotive started to move it never put out black smoke. As it made its way through town the steam cloud expanded out covering the town. I called it the town humidifier. After the locomotive had passed I continued walking to class, probably late by that time, but I was in awe. I noticed the steam had spread out across the entire valley by the time it reached the top of the ridges. The taller ones being 1000-feet above the river. Although the 614T was reported to be testing for new technology with fluidized coal bed combustion technology being spoken along with this testing. It wasn't clear if the 614T was reconfigured with any of this new technology. I did hear few weeks into the testing the locomotive was full of leaks, but you'd never know it from the way it looked when performing! It would carry 30 full loads of coal cars up grade then pull 90 empty coal cars down grade. One time it pulled the Amtrak's Cardinal upgrade. I asked the conductor if the 614T was fully pulling the train and he excitedly said it was the Diesel was just providing headend power. Surprisingly there was no discussion from the ME department about this testing I was keeping an ear out for. Only the school news paper made a brief mention of it with no technical information basically just poking fun at using an old steal locomotive. No mention it was a front line passenger steal locomotive with a reported pull speed with passenger cars by Ross Rowland of 125 mph! I can attest to January 1985 being exceeding a cold one where in this video it is stated the temperature during testing got a low as -20°F. I was helping my friend John Carrier take his large Ford to Beckley on the weekend in this January. We got up early Saturday and the car would not start. I tried various ideas for probably 90 minutes, then we had to give up. During this time it had warmed up a bit. It was so cold I had to restrict the air coming into my month with scarf or my throat would close from the shock of the cold air. The car's battery was my main suspicion of being too low in charge. I decided during the week I'd take the batter out and bring it down to the school physical plant and ask them politely if they would charge it. They did. The next weekend we got the car to Beckley. On my walk back to my dorm I noticed the bank thermometer that had been off when I'd gone by earlier was now on and said -15°F and it had warmed up a fair bit since I'd walked by it earlier.

[@earlfreeman93]

Coal is fossil fuel; maybe if it had been made to run on bio-methan (refined sewer gas).

[@rodneycooperLMSCoach]

The video of 614 is quite dramatic and a wonderful piece of filming. Still watch it to this day.

[@SteamKing2160]

I got this interesting DVD from Mark I video called Winter Coal trains that goes into depth about the C&O 614's winter coal trains of January 1985. Llivio Dante Porta was the guy that built the La Argentina 4-8-0 and David Wardale's Red Devil had 43% more horsepower and reducing fuel consumption by 26%. David Wardale noted that if C&O 614 was regauged to 3 foot 6 inch like the red devil, then it would come out more powerful than the UP Big Boy (where that would be true or not leaves it to arithmetic work). First things it noted is that the ACE 3000 would end up being a 14.9% thermal efficient locomotive. It then noted that the ACE 3000 took inspiration from the N&W Jawn Henry turbine locomotive and that the N&W were prepared to buy 25 more until they found out that Baldwin-Lima-Hamilton jacked up the price tag forcing the N&W to buy even more diesels. ACE 3000 mockup schemes were in Burlington Northern, Chessie System, Appalachian Lines, etc. The ACE 3000 had a fluid bed gas producer firebox. C&O 614 hauled 3 tenders totalling 50 tons of coal and 70k gallons of water hauling coal trains and one day all the diesels froze up and C&O 614 was the only engine to run that day. The engine at the end of the month towed the Amtrak Cardinal heading towards Hagerstown. For Lima, if steam hadn't died during the 1950s, then they would develop the 6-8-6 locomotive. The cost of the ACE 3000 prototype was going to end up costing a total of $40M to $50M in 1985 dollars which today would be around $100.9M to $126.1M

[@UrMomsChauffer]

It would be 116-146 million in today's money

[@notknightbean]

If you want a modernized steam engine I’d look at something like the cab forward of the southern pacific or the y6b of the norfolk and western. You’d want a forward cab for train crew and you’d want to use computerized fireman, which would allow for a forward cab. YouMd also want to include cab controls so it can link up to diesel electrics or another steam engine. I say make it articulated to make it even more powerful and to increase steam usage, however a 484 or 2 8 2 locomotive could work.

[@TheRailroadCrossing-SteamPower]

Outside of articulated, those attributes were the principle design until they backed off and went to the 2nd gen design..

[@MrToradragon]

Or, if the routs were not that long, tender locomotive could perhaps do the job. But I do not know how popular those were in the USA, on the other side of the Atlantic however, Europe had seen several mainline tender locomotives e.g. Czechoslovak classes 464 or 477. As well mechanical stokers were a thing here and those perhaps could be, in some modern version, controlled by computer.

[@matthewpowell2429]

That one design with the two tenders is an inspiration for my own locomotive design.

[@petermostyneccleston2884]

In Britain, Oliver Bullied designed and built the Leader. This was a steam locomotive, with a drivers cab at each end, but the fireman in the middle. There was only one built, which looks like a modern diesel locomotive. But was scrapped in the end.

[@anthonyxuereb792]

They should have known better after seeing what the internal combustion engine can do.

[@ronalddevine9587]

I've often wondered what happened to the ACE 3000. Thanks for the info. Bring out a modernized NIAGARA.

[@PatrioticCoservativeAmerican]

They need to take the design, and add present day technology to it. They should start a donation site, so people can donate. When they reach their goal they can start building it. The time is more than right, because the price of oil, and diesel is through the roof right now. When they get it done, if they come across any errors, they can fix them.

[@TheRailroadCrossing-SteamPower]

yeah, I definitely think funding would be there to develop the idea today. Especially if modern pollutant scrubbing techniques are incorporated.

[@PatrioticCoservativeAmerican]

@@TheRailroadCrossing-SteamPower Yeah, and as time goes on they could make more powerful designs.

[@gwaithwyr]

Wardale's book "The Red Devil" is well worth reading. Porta's triple compound 2-10-0 should have been built. The ACE 3000 idea lost sight of the steam locomotive's great advantages: its simplicity and ability to tolerate railroad conditions. Never mind. The steam loco will be back, probably burning biomass. Nobody

[@marmion150]

They were fighting the wrong battle. An engine that burns coal to boil a liquid, create a vapour, which then drives a piston, can never be as efficient as the engine that injects fuel directly into the cylinders. During the years when steam and diesel were built side by side, steam's great advantage was low capital cost. You could get 3 or 4 steamers for the price of one diesel. Once you introduce the complexities of divided drive, compounds, condenser etc that advantage is lost. The Porta and Wardale engines referred to succeeded because they improved on existing designs without departing too much from them.

[@TheRailroadCrossing-SteamPower]

So you feel the idea was over thought out. Which actually is a common thing among engineers

[@davidgrisez]

I suspect there is another big factor that would have killed the idea of a modern steam locomotive burning coal in the 1980s even if coal was cheap and oil expensive. This other factor is the pollution released from burning coal. There is the soot, the ash, the sulfur dioxide emissions and other emissions. Also a steam locomotive does not the space for all the pollution control equipment that is used in a coal burning power plant.

[@James_Knott]

The mid 80s is also when concerns were being raised about burning coal in general. Coal is a very dirty fuel, which created a lot of pollution. A lot of work went into scrubbing the exhaust of steam driven power stations and various industries. This was even before we got into climate change issues of releasing all the CO2 into the atmosphere, something coal does a lot!

[@TheRailroadCrossing-SteamPower]

Yes, I remember that.. Also, I think it was the 2000's that Minnesota built that super scrubbing recycling plant?? I think that's the most modern atmosphere tech going right now. Im sure it's been improved upon since as well. Point being.. I think coal can be adequately scrubbed nowadays, whereas not so much in the 80's.

[@johnemmert9012]

Given the public and even administrative pressures to abandon most uses of fossil fuels since 2008, I doubt that building a steam locomotive solves the root problem centered around oil consumption. Rather, it simply transfers the problem to another source.

[@TheRailroadCrossing-SteamPower]

Maybe so... Kicks the can down the road a lot further than oil IMO... But your point is taken and legitimate. Regardless, the Railroads need to be coming up with something right now, otherwise they'll once again get caught with their britches down like they did just prior to WWII.

[@khadijagwen]

A big problem is water use. Water would need to be efficiently reclaimed so you were not stopping all the time to get more water. I think this is doable.

[@TheRailroadCrossing-SteamPower]

Likely Aux tender.. and water scoops at speed

[@martindoyle831]

Just have to build a new style steam turbine. Instead of everything large size. Do like the turbo liners that used multiple smaller engines. And put them in power packs. So u can swap packs and maintain the turbines off the loco and install complete working sets. Setup either a large boiler or multiple medium ones and like a ship. Id say multiple smaller boilers powering multiple tubines powering multiple eletric motors and used eletric traction. Eletrical traction would allow for similar parts to current in use and similar knowledge. Id say u would also need a way to burn the coal as a dust not chunks so u could use it similarily to oil. So u need crushing system and air blower to fire the coal burner. If u go 3 boilers powering 6 turbines and 6 motors u could easily make a 6000 or more hp unit now size is an issue. It would be similar in configuration to the UP turbines in outter form..

[@TheRailroadCrossing-SteamPower]

Interesting ideas

[@JackSmith-fj6sn]

The 5AT is indeed the last modern steam locomotive design. L.D.Porta related that going from 1940 steam to ACE3000 was like asking 3 women to make a baby in 3 months . You can't just bypass all these complex details and put it "in the road".

[@nicholasspisak7600]

If I were to build a 2nd generation steam locomotive I would expand the BERKSHIRE type into a 2-8-6 similar to the lima A1 with 63 inch drivers 250 PSI elesco feedwater heater and 145 foot square firebox and be numbered no 2 and classed A2

[@jamessneed8789]

They should have built the prototype.

[@TheRailroadCrossing-SteamPower]

Agreed

[@howardcapito1124]

Ross Rowland's hype about his ACE 3000 stays with us today. In the 1980's, given extant diesel-electric rail locomotive technology, on paper the ACE 3000 might have worked. The subsequent quantum leap in locomotive technology would have killed the ACE 3000 before it left the erecting shops.

[@ManiacRacing]

"A very efficient coal burning diesel locomotive" ?

[@pmsteamrailroading]

I sure wish Ross Rowland had not painted 614 that stupid green color.

[@191895]

Let us not forget: water treatment is mandantory to prevent scale build up; a large infrastructure must be maintained to supply water (troughs anyone?) like NYC. Lets not forget ash disposal and the comparatively low starting tractive effort compared to a diesel electric. Most high pressure boilers require a fireman which would kill any flexibility in the operation. Tier4?? Really?

[@bobbysenterprises3220]

2020 In 2020, the United States became a net exporter of petroleum for the first time since at least 1949.1 In 2022, total petroleum exports were about 9.52 million barrels per day (b/d) and total petroleum imports were about 8.33 million b/d, making the United States an annual net total petroleum exporter for the third year in a row.

[@TheRailroadCrossing-SteamPower]

Yes, but the timeframe in discussion is the early 1980's, not 2020 and beyond. Also, along with greenhouse emissions, a majority of fossil fuels are expected to be running seriously short within the next 3 decades. So there is a need today to develop alternative energy now.

[@am74343]

We haven't even begun to utilize all the potential of different configurations... A pantograph powered electric locomotive could send the electricity through heating coils to a boiler which produces steam. Or even a natural gas powered boiler could make steam. There are literally dozens of ways to power a locomotive, but our design engineers are too stuck in the mud to break the mold and do something completely new.

[@physiocrat7143]

For a really large and powerful steam locomotive, five driving axles is the maximum practicable. After that, rhe Garret type is the logical next step if more power is needed. The other principles are to keep it simple and use components and sub systems that are known to work reliably.

[@martinanschutz7410]

I think the problem was ACE made a plan for a locomotive. Then they see, it is Not what the railways want and made a new plan . They losing time for i believe 7 plans and in the end the time was gone for a modern coal burning locomotive . Some Times i think Something Like the UP 80, a coal burning Gas Turbine could be a way to, but ACE want to build a Steam loco.

[@themanformerlyknownascomme777]

among all the "what if" locomotives out there, this one is the most painful, with it's potential to have steam actually doing revenue work in my lifetime. oh man, it drives me crazy. The only thing I personally would do to the design is I would turn it into a steam motor driven design like the planned B&O W1 (technically making it into a 2-2-2-2-2-2 or a 2-2-2-2-2-0 with that ACE 6000) and using a quadruple steam expansion design for maximum efficiency.

[@johnarnehansen9574]

I heard that there were plans of reviving the firerube-Boilered steam turbine locomotives over a couple of years ago! For once, I have yet to see one.

[@jpoppinga8417]

If we were to bring back external combustion it would need to be a steam electric. This has been tried before and they had several working examples. But at the time diesel fuel was cheap and they never pursued it further

[@TheRailroadCrossing-SteamPower]

probably a place to start for sure,

[@Posttrip]

So glad you made this! So good to know there was some effort made to, at least, try to show what is possible. The exciting part is that technology and new capabilities just expand exponentially. We just need an Elon Musk Tyler to come along with deep pockets and a passion for steam!

[@TheRailroadCrossing-SteamPower]

Well it has to be something that not only saves cost on fuel type..but also infrastructure requirements have to be kept reasonable as well. No easy task.

[@Posttrip]

@@TheRailroadCrossing-SteamPower Agreed.

[@nicholasspisak7600]

If we're to build a second generation steam locomotive I would build a 2-8-6 steam locomotive and name it through Berlin type it would be similar designed of the lima A1 BERKSHIRE I would build it with 63.5 inch drivers 250 psi and 28.5*30 cylinders elesco feedwater heater lowered headlight 145 ft2 firebox and number it no 2 class A2.😊L

[@MustangsTrainsMowers]

In current day could a modern design steam locomotive be paired with an engine that captures braking energy to help pull the train when it’s not braking or going down a hill. This 2nd engine would not have an engine on it.

[@Dallen9]

It's going to be either a fifth, sixth, or seventh generation locomotive Depending how you want to shake the dice if your talking modern steam. Third generation or fourth generation was the death nail and because of the nature of how steam locomotives were build you can argue about how each new innovation added to a steam locomotive made it a generational leap.... In all seriousness though the Ace 3000 if made to work would of been like a 5th or 6th gen steam locomotive but maybe a third generation turbine locomotive. But that's only if it used a turbine at all.

[@TheRailroadCrossing-SteamPower]

Interesting train of thought

[@Dallen9]

@@TheRailroadCrossing-SteamPower So much happened in the development of steam it's kind of ridiculous to think ACE 3000 was the "third generation" when so much technological development happened over a span of 200 years. they had to be referring to a technology they wanted to develop as a third generation of said technology other wise calling the ACE 3000 design a third generation is just hog wash.

[@GermanShepherd1983]

Would this engine have utilized water more efficiently too? I always figured there had to be a way to reclaim water after it exited the cylinders.

[@MrStevesTrains]

Interesting, who knew?

[@Andrew-se9be]

A minor nitpick of an otherwise good video, the usa is a net exporter of oil.

[@TheRailroadCrossing-SteamPower]

True today... Not in 1985. Thank you for the compliment.

[@pigpilot7275]

1:30 Fossil fuels nearing an end? Sorry, I don't see it. Town where I live (population 25,000) is building 2 new gas stations. Fear mongering...

[@TheRailroadCrossing-SteamPower]

Well, that's your opinion. Nothing wrong with that.

[@kennethlacewell1517]

I might have worked. The trickiest part would have been to automate firing and water level. Firemen had to anticipate what the engineer would do, it would be very tough to computerize that. Today it's all a moot point. With global warming, all fossil fuels have no future. Railroads have been putting off electrification for 100 years. Think about it. Some of the biggest electrification projects were just before the diesel. Electric trains are the ultimate carbon neutral transportation. And no batteries. Railroads need to bite the bullet and get it done.

[@pigpilot7275]

Is it the coming ice age, global warming, or climate change? I can't remember. Seems like it had something to do with the sun.

[@TheRailroadCrossing-SteamPower]

While I agree alternative energy and fuels need to be developed.. Im not a believer that electrifying the lines is the answer. The cost alone is prohibitive with the needed infrastructure to go with.

[@gregrowe1168]

So not even a prototype was built? Even the others mentioned at least made it that far and proved their concept unsuccessful. It’s interesting that a model was produced for a locomotive that never existed in real life though.

[@TheRailroadCrossing-SteamPower]

So long as you have specs, one can model just about anything, no?

[@PaulfromChicago]

Thanks! CGW Texas T1?

[@TheRailroadCrossing-SteamPower]

To make sure I got you... That is Chicago and Western, yes? And thank you! You got it! I have the Red Devil posting first in the AM that's done already... So your video will be vid two tomorrow at 3 PM Pacific time!

[@PaulfromChicago]

@@TheRailroadCrossing-SteamPower Chicago Great Western? No worries if it takes a while to research it. I'm not going anywhere. And neither is this railroad. A few decades too late for that. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_Great_Western_Railway

[@TheRailroadCrossing-SteamPower]

@@PaulfromChicago I was close! I have everything that I need now on reference material and such. Smaller railroad names Im not the best with. See ya tomorrow! Thanks again!