Putting all of my upgrades into all of my Mac Clones.

Thanks PCBWay.com - Today we're answering a question that no one has ever asked before - will two 90's Macintosh clones, based on the same architecture, actually be able to use exactly the same set of upgrades and accelerators? And if they are, will the perform exactly the same?
Well buckle up, because who knows what kinds of problems we'll run into!
More cloney goodness:
🍎 Rise and Fall of the Macintosh Clones by @Mac84: • The Rise and Fall of t...
🍎 @RMCRetro's Mac Clone video: • Why Apple allowed Offi...
Thank you PCBWay for sponsoring today's video! Check out PCB Way's new advanced PCBs! www.pcbway.com...
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💾 Support these retro computing shenanigans on Patreon! / actionretro
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#Macintosh #Clone #PowerComputing

[@3lectr1c]

Great video, but you had a missed chance here to call it a clone war. 😉

[@jameswyma9849]

lol I was just thinking that

[@BluefireGames99]

Begun, the clone wars have.

[@goeland4585]

It's not too late!

[@BilisNegra]

I don't think he actually missed anything. He had Clone Wars and Battle of the Clones to choose from, and he just picked the latter.

[@luigisfan101]

Wohoo I got them!! Thanks so much

[@paulmuaddib451]

Also, since you mentioned the 9500, here's an excellent video by an excellent channel, about it. m.kzbin.info/www/bejne/rnesoIp-lq15ipY

[@edittext]

Sounds like you might need some beefier power delivery. Those newer upgrades likely need significantly more power.

[@tobiwonkanogy2975]

i've had some caps pop on me with modern power supply trying to run a sempron . These are better built mind you

[@morecrappysketches]

This. I've had similar problems with a Powermac 7600 with a 1ghz G3 upgrade and a 9200 PCI. It just won't boot up at all. Black screen. Pretty sure it's power delivery.

[@SirSmilie]

I legit LOLed after the "many, many, hours later" cut to an exploded pile of parts. Been there!

[@dregenius]

I know right!!! That was hilarious and also very relatable lmao

[@nickwallette6201]

Every time I get a new-to-me computer, I disassemble everything, re-cap the PSU, replace fans, fully clean and re-lube the floppy and CD drives, clean, retro-bright, and repair any broken case plastic, sand and repaint any rusting metal... So, in many cases, it's literally more than a month after I get a computer before I even have everything ready to power on for the first time. I can't even count how many times I've sat down at my workbench, littered with parts, looking very much like that scene in the video, and thought.. "this place is a mess.. I can't even think with all this clutter." And I still have a few days to wait for some replacement caps, or a 3D-printed drive sled, or paint to cure. I know that's a little different from what happened here, but man.. that 11th hour of nursing a computer back to health can be exhausting. :-) It's super nice having working, (more or less) reliable, shiny and clean retro computers, so it's all worth it. But seeing that pile of parts made me want to offer our hero a warm cup of tea.

[@JessicaFEREM]

I like that you still have the cameras video in the background, it allows us to see what you're doing while seeing the video capture, as well as not feeling like a lazy direct capture.

[@lemagreengreen]

That bus speed just kills performance, on paper CPU and GPU should offer so much more performance

[@xerzy]

it's ok, you can send me the SuperMac if you don't want it yes I haven't watched the video yet why do you ask

[@Stryder_The_Nite_Owl]

15:30 - This card is a DOS/PC Compatibility card, with either a Pentium or Cyrix processor, for running MS DOS, Windows 3.1, and Windows 95 natively (without emulation).

[@john_ace]

It should be a P166. The ATI Mach64 is nice and there is a Sound Blaster compatible sound chip on the back of the card (i think). Orange Micro offered some 3d-enabled PC cards. The "OrangePC 660" was the holy grail of Mac/PC gaming in the 90s.

[@bamdadkhan]

i know this is not your priority, but what is the *lowest* mac os version that runs properly on those machines? can they be used with os 8 or even 7 with the upgrade card installed?

[@john_ace]

I had to deactivate (unsolder some resistors) the onboard L2 cache on my 9600 (very similar to the UMAX S900) to get my Sonnet 700MHz G4 upgrade to work (same CPU and module). The PPC ROM has a bug with speculative access which makes this feature problematic on certain machines. I had similar problems with several PPC-machines until i modified the 9600. The best machine for the 1GHz G4 would be a "Mach 5" 9600 in my opinion as it has the speculative access patch in ROM and no onboard cache. The CPU-socket of the Mach 5 9600 is a little modified and is said to deliver more power to the VRM on the CPU-card. Your fps in UT2003 seem a bit lacking. I have to test that on my rig, though. Unreal runs like a charm as does Quake III. I use an original Radeon and 768Mb Ram.

[@jeffwalther2023]

There's actually a jumper on the S900 board that you can use to disable the on-board 512KB cache. On many (most?) S900 boards the jumper header is not installed and there's just a couple of solder holes waiting for the jumper pins.

[@ericmackrodt9441]

I'm having some ship of Theseus vibe with those computers. With all of those upgrades, are they still the same computers?

[@3rdalbum]

Same motherboard, power supply, and case: and some of the same RAM. Still the same machine :)

[@JessicaFEREM]

This quickly devolved into a Druaga1 troubleshooting video

[@CommonSense-hy2sn]

Sean I never get tired of 1. Your tender hands 2. Minecraft on old Macs What imo is unfortunate is that most of the time, Minecraft (+ modern web) is the only thing you try on them and therefor imo your videos get samey and old, much like my comments. I feel that these really cool Macs and parts you have don't get explored much and aren't put to use to things that could have excelled in. e.g. UT2003 as it is over the minimum specs. Did you run it in OpenGL? even a Voodoo 3 should handle it at 30fps. Props for showing UT2003 with FPS stats, but Minecraft's still 50% of the games here. we need MOAR GAMES!! or fun G4 apps like video editors. if you use software that targets the Mac you showcase in addition to the modern age stuff then you'll get very varied build showcase videos. 601 stuff + Minecraft, 604 stuff + Minecraft, G3 suff + Minecraft etc. I'm not sure who you're reffering to at 10:05, but I've never said that you should outright stop doing Minecraft. If I upgrade my 486 to a Pentium, I'll for sure try Crysis on it but I'll also try games that are meant to run on a Pentium.

[@ActionRetro]

A number of people have asked about trying more period games hah. Thanks for this feedback!

[@fsfs555]

At this point it's kind of his schtick: upgrade an old Mac beyond a reasonable level, load Tiger or preferably Leopard on it, and play Minecraft. Kind of like how the bulk of LGR's videos involve loading WIn3.1 or 95 and playing DOOM or Wolfenstein on whatever piece of hardware he's just picked up. There's other stuff they could do (and new stuff would be welcome and refreshing) but by now it's kind of tradition. That being said, you can kind of see why people pick this up as a hobby and then lose interest: how many machines do you actually need to have around to play Minecraft or DOOM? No need for a collection; one machine would do fine. In fact, we can just download everything and emulate it all on a single new computer; time to throw these troublesome old things out or put them on eBay for a huge mark-up.

[@andrewtormo7662]

Are you sure the power supply is adequate for those upgrades in the Super Mac?

[@koztech]

Gotta love retro hardware. Even if bought fully working, the second you need it to work it decides to start acting up...IT NEVER FAILS! 😭

[@aaronkoch77]

Another benchmarking tool you might consider is Aleph One, the open source version of Marathon. I’ve gotten it running well on many low end machines.

[@tristansewell5986]

Your clones are very impressive. You must be very proud.

[@sjk5845]

Begun the clone war has

[@charlesjmouse]

I wonder... as it seems the 50Mhz bus of these machines is hobbling the upgrades is there any option to overclock that by fair means of foul? 50Mhz-66Mhz would seem reasonable to shoot for. But of course the more the better where a computer is bus bottlenecked. I wonder if you might be running in to power supply issues on the 'nicer' machine with the full-fat upgrades? Very nice to have both.

[@davidg5898]

You have a spare working Umax motherboard? Time to make a "reverse sleeper" -- put that thing in a modern PC case and confuse the hell out of everyone! Anyone complaining about your playing newer games just doesn't get what you do here. You take old Macs and push them to their limits with insane and arcane upgrades. Playing period correct games wouldn't be pushing them at all.

[@retropuffer2986]

I can't help but think of all the Power PC clones thrown out with people thinking they were just old Dos Boxes.

[@tomatobros]

gforce 9200? uhmm what, thats a radeon.

[@jeffwalther2023]

IIRC, Sonnet never got the later G4 upgrades (700, 800, & 1000 MHz) to be compatible with the S900/J700. Although, a commenter further down says he got it working by disabling the S900's onboard cache. That is worth trying. There is a 512KB motherboard (L2) cache soldered to the S900 board, just as there is on the PM9500. This is a difference between the PowerWave and the S900. There is a jumper on the S900 board which, when installed, disables the motherboard cache. On many (most?) S900 boards the jumper header is not installed, so one must locate the holes and solder in the jumper header yourself. Failing that, the best bet for the S900 is PowerLogix's 1 GHz G3 PPC750GX, which has 1 MB of cache that runs at the full speed of the CPU. That's what I use in mine. The other potential issue is PCI card placement, which is dicey on the S900. The lower four slots are behind a PCI-PCI bridge, which, in effect, converts what is normally PCI slot C1 into four more PCI slots. Apple's initialization firmware in Open Firmware is extremely buggy and does not initialize PCI cards in the lower four slots properly in many cases, resulting in a black screen freeze after bong. This is similar to the problems with multi-function cards in the PM6400 and PM6500. I could write a multipage treatise on the topic.... trag @68kmla & tinkerdifferent

[@wmssak]

Is that a DOS compatibility card? Looks similar to my Sunblade’s SunPCi

[@johnathanpearson3203]

What about benchmarks? Could you transcode a video on it slow Vs fast?

[@Angelgreat]

Put the spare S900 motherboard in a 90s ATX case.

[@eDoc2020]

I don't know what would be better, that or a modern rGb Gamerz case.

[@Angelgreat]

BTW, UMAX and Power Computing's keyboards and mice are just rebranded AppleDesign Keyboard and Apple Desktop Mouse II just with their logos on them.

[@elihulee5367]

Yes my week ends on a good note with awesome retro Macintosh clone shenanigans!

[@MidnightThunderYT]

I can't connect to the server. I just get 'Can't resolve hostname' error. (Running MC 1.2.5 and its unblocked in the firewall)

[@DavidStahlOLDHAPPyMACs]

Very interesting Sean I like the Power Computing clone better my self its just plan amazing that we can push these older computers to Limits that the designers never could have imaged

[@tennickjestzajety69]

12:50 GeForce 9200? 🤔

[@edised71]

My first Mac was a Motorola StarMax, with a 180 Mhz 603e chip...1997, I think it came stock with Mac Os 7.5.3 installed...

[@soknightsam]

Up next... Order 66

[@fsfs555]

Too bad that 1G G4 was uncooperative in the UMAX. Maybe a lesser card or one from a different vendor (there were a handful of early non-Sonnet G4 upgrades out there including ZIF-socketed slot adapters). Also keep in mind the SuperMac (and other clones with the DEC PCI-PCI bridge chip onboard such as the 5-slot StarMax 5000) can be super fussy about certain PCI cards being used in certain slots, a known issue even when they were new. If you have problems, try to mix-and-match until they work. Generally high-bandwidth cards (video, disk controllers, 100Mb Ethernet) are recommended to go in the top 3 while lesser cards (USB, audio) usually play nice in the lower slots. Also don't use any multi-function cards with bridge chips on them (such as the Sonnet Tempo Trio) in the lower 3 slots or there's a good chance they'll get weird.

[@brendanhoffmann8402]

I remember when these came out in the mid 90s, I was on a Mac IIsi until 1997! So naturally I coveted these most of all! My family was too poor to buy another Mac at that stage though so in 1997 we got our first IBM PC clone. PS... I just got a 2nd hand Mac! A 2011 Mac mini, i5 2.3Ghz, 8Gb ram and 512Gb SSD. It sucks that it can only run High Sierra. I tried using the hacked version of Catalina but it had heaps of bugs and wouldn't update anything once it was installed. I just tried to download geekbench 5... $14.99... what a rip off!

[@NoobixCube]

Every time I get a new computer, no matter how powerful it is, or how inappropriate, I play through Prince of Persia. It gets more and more hilarious as the years go on. Normally that means playing it in Dosbox under Windows, but most recently, I played it in SheepShaver on my shiny new M1 Air. I figured since this was my first Apple computer since my Apple IIc (which I ironically first had in the year 2000... Family nonsense happened...), I'd play an Apple version. Long story short, I don't fault you for running modern games on these older machines. The anachronism is its own kind of hilarity. Also, back when I were a lad in the 90s, I was a PC gamer. I'd cheer at getting 5 fps out of a game from a PC Gamer cover disc that had no business running on my PC.

[@okeeblow]

"S900 and J700 machines have a PCI bridge chip controlling all PCI slots except the first two, which use the 'normal' Apple chip. As a result, only cards that are PCI 2.1 compliant can be installed in slots 3-6 (3-4 for J700)."

[@edised71]

I have been enjoying some of your crazy videos, it reminds me of my first years of following the mac world. I see you are a bit of a musician and I am surprised that you don't do any content about vintage music production on Classic Mac OS that could be fun... Keep up the nice work!

[@robsidle5200]

That case reminds me very much of my childhood Micron Pentium II. Back single captive thumb screw, front panel release clips, front hard drive vertical cage, external drive bay that comes out all the same. That machine took so much abuse!

[@destroyer6470]

I finally have some G4 macs running mac os 9, whats the first software you recommend?

[@3rdalbum]

The first software I installed on mine was Escape Velocity (Override), and I never got onto playing anything else! Partly because I got engrossed in the game, partly because I had a baby and I haven't touched the computer since May!

[@orestes1984]

In spite of everything the Power Mac 9000 series towers were still some of my favorite Macs. People prefer the desktops over the towers when it came to macs but one of the machines that I always wanted to own was a 9600/200 MP. I guess I'd own one some day if I came across one, but they're actually going up in price now to the point where I couldn't justify it.

[@eliasjachniuk4427]

i love pushing old harware limits, but i wasnt around to play a lot of the older games, so seeing something i know, like minecraft, running on them gives me a lot more context, so please, dont stop testing it!

[@jimian2007]

The UMAX company still exists in Taiwan today, although it now manufactures memory (DDR) instead of a whole computer...

[@nickwallette6201]

* unceremonious pile of computer parts * "I have encountered... _issues!_ " hahaha! I assume you waited until after you were done hurling profanities to press record. LOL 🙃

[@aa-au]

I believe that's a DOS compatibility card with a Pentium 166 processor on it? You will also need a breakout cable (4 way I think) to drive a joystick and some video. That's as far as I remember. If I'm right, do I win a prize? Just kidding...

[@selzzaW]

I know it's not ideal, but you could probably throw a Voodoo card in the UMAX and have a slightly better graphics card. Probably not capable of Minecraft, but better than the card it came with for at least era-appropriate games.

[@CircuitBored]

I've done a lot of troubleshooting on the S900 so wanted to share my thoughts. When installing certain G3 and most G4 upgrades you must reinstall the RAM sticks in a different configuration. Instead of matching the DIMMs in A1 and B1 as you have shown in this video, you must pair them physically instead i.e. A1 matches A2, A3 matches A4, etcetera. This is related to how memory is addressed differently by the CPU upgrades. There are multiple issues with the S900's PCI platform. In broad strokes: The first two PCI slots on the S900's logic board are regular PCI slots with one controller each. The bottom four slots are controlled by a single controller. This is where many issues arise with compatibility with PCI cards and CPU upgrades. If a PCI card uses more than one PCI channel it is almost definitely going to cause trouble if placed in one of the lower slots. Combination USB/Firewire cards are notoriously buggy on these machines, as are SCSI cards and certain fast ethernet cards. Many configurations of certain cards work perfectly fine but many cards won't work when installed alongside another for no apparent reason. The S900 just randomly hates some PCI cards. It is highly recommened to always place your GPU in the top slot. The CUDA reset on the S900 is not reliable. It is advisable to hit the button multiple times when installing any new cards. There are also issues with the CPU slots themselves. The pins inside the connector are prone to bending as they take the entire weight of the CPU card. This renders the connection unreliable and leads to unpredictable and strange behaviour. My S900 became much more reliable when I installed a fanless G3 in place of the original 225MHz card, which had a heavy heatsink on it. The connectors are also prone to oxidation and deoxit may not cut it due to its comparitively poor dissipation. WD-40's contact cleaner is highly effective in hard-to-reach spots. If you have calipers, check the thickness of your G4 card compared to the other cards that work. If your G4 card is a different thickness then that could be contributing to a bad connection too. Clean all the contacts on all the connectors twice. These boards' connectors oxidise badly, even the ram slots and the PRAM battery holder. Sadly this oxidation is not easy to see due to its similar colour to the metal underneath. Finally, it's possible that your board has bad caps. There are almost fifty electrolytics caps on this machine and it is 25 years old. The likelihood of cap failure on these boards is high simply due to how many there are. Apologies for the wall of text - I hope you find some of this useful!

[@TheSulross]

a death match where the victor gets a sticker - this is the riveting content that KZbin was made for! All that's missing are the imposter Macs, at the beginning, saying in an artificial Mac computer voice, "We who are about to die salute you! Hail Caesar!"

[@wdd6864]

Did you do a ram check with the original processor? Sometime it could be an issue with comparability. Because in a weird thing I am thinking all the data passes through the ram before getting to the CPU.

[@WillOnSomething]

To be fair, the Umax's case design isn't any more unique than the PowerComputing. Dell used the same exact BTX case in the late 90s for it's Dimension and XPS models.

[@jaimeduncan6167]

Back in the 90s the power computing machines become some kisiera of a legend. Súper popular for many reasons.

[@KnuckleHunkybuck]

It's not silly to play modern games on legacy machines. It demonstrates that those are machines that were never built with a "ceiling"; they will take on any processing problem that is brought to them. They obviously shouldn't do it terribly well, but the fact that they do it at all is a testament to their engineering.

[@TheBasementChannel]

You could have called it clone wars, but I have a vague recollection that term is already used.

[@Vlamat67]

Test Quake ½ game, Final Cut, Photoshop, Logic on OSx....

[@MK-of7qw]

The Attack of the Clones era. Ahh yes. I remember trying to add an ethernet card into a mac clone back in the day for a user. It was a headache and we went all throught the area trying to find a PCI card that would work in a macintosh.

[@TheDc1984dc]

Play what you want on what you want. It's silly for retro gamers to complain about what you do with your Macs.

[@SilverstreakFolf]

I cant help but notice that you dont have a geekbench license I can share mine if you want it although you can still buy older versions today

[@redleader6442]

How ironic. The older computer takes the newer G4 while the newer one is trapped at a maximum G3.

[@fluffycritter]

Question: Since you've used CC BY-SA assets in this video, does this mean that this video is itself also under the CC BY-SA license?

[@stevesmusic1862]

I think its great you use Minecraft on these clones, its a great benchmark!

[@vasya_cat]

I ran Minecraft on my Eee PC 2g surf and got 3 fps

[@pentiummmx2294]

just have the umax be vanilla and have mac os 8 on it. that's my suggestion

[@paulmuaddib451]

You know it's an excellent channel when you like the video 30 seconds in.

[@timsenecal1727]

i am curious what versions of open firmware the two machines are using

[@destroyer6470]

Begun the clone war has.-Master Yoda

[@David_Phantom]

I wonder if Linux could run on the PowerComputing.

[@michaelperugini4199]

I want that AOPEN bubble wrap please!!!!!!!!

[@ironhead2008]

The issues with the Supermac smell like PSU issues to me.

[@JoeSteele]

Did you drop the GB ethernet into the PowerWave?

[@FireStriker_]

did you ever get around to fixing the umax psu?

[@TalesofWeirdStuff]

A bunch of people have mentioned power as a possible problem. I think motherboard firmware is another likely candidate. Is seems like something isn't getting initialized properly or cache issues.

[@jeffwalther2023]

Both motherboards have exactly the same ROM/firmware. $77D.28F2

[@ToTheGAMES]

Brand new weebly wobbly desk. :)

[@nochnkunschtdingdo9017]

Could it be that the card is an 3d accelerator?

[@3rdalbum]

Wait. Surely Unreal Tournament shouldn't be running quite so slowly on a 1GHz G4? I've run it much better on a G3 iMac.

[@davidg5898]

The bus speed of the iMac is higher. That makes a world of difference for video card performance.

[@masonthedunce3711]

it sounds like you just made that up and i did

[@memsom]

My 9500 came stock with a 604e base 180MHz dual processor card and I believe it would work in these models. You don’t need a special slot to get dual processors. Not that MacOS can do anything useful with dual processor configuration anyway. For that you need BeOS.

[@amirpourghoureiyan1637]

Maybe try flashing the PowerComputing BIOS to the Umax? Backing up both would also allow for an archive to be available online

[@Angelgreat]

THE S900 HAS BEEN REVIVED!

[@geoffsmith673]

Ah, the Umax, I inherited this at just the right time. Nightmare running Cubase. Great, once I changed to Logic (Emagic version).

[@BennBirch]

Thank you for listening to us and doing the UT/Minecraft payoff. You totally redeemed yourself. Too bad that the Umax wasn't playing nice it would have been really interesting to see the shootout.

[@succuvamp_anna]

I bet anything you need that proprietary upgrade card to use that CPU, wonder if anyone has one that could be reverse engineered. Probably wouldn't happen because of how rare the machine it's for is and how much more rare the CPU card is.

[@Toby_Q]

Wow. Again, I respect the hours/days you put into this. Nice job. Sure hope I can find a nice Power Computing system someday!

[@elgigante2001]

Hmm I wonder if the SuperMac can handle the Sonnet card, but requires that it be that dual Cpu setup you mentioned. It's sad that the dual cpu hardware for the SuperMac is near impossible to find nowadays.

[@Shiunbird]

You should try halo!!

[@dontcallmebrodie]

I brought a power computing tower like that to college for my freshman year.

[@dontcallmebrodie]

And a huge trinitron monitor...took up half my dorm room. I don't think the furniture in dorms today could handle that weight.

[@ryanzmuda3167]

Bios or firmware upgrade

[@KabelkowyJoe]

21:00 Solved problem of colors. Reason is wrong LVDS data format VESA (US) vs JEIDA (Japain). Now i must solve why KZbin removes my comment. As usual. Attempt nr 2. [Video signal transmission between motherboard and Tcon via LVDS. VESA and JEIDA standard] on [e-learning electronique] channel precisely at 8:00 mark. Don't know what problem is precisely but just that it's not broken only misconfigured.

[@KabelkowyJoe]

Im guessing - DVI carry not only video signal but separate line for monitor identification, configuration and ability to for example put it into speep mode. It is also present on VGA monitors, there is digital link, possibly it's handled by ROM on board, and ROM (at least on PC's) is mapped into BIOS address space for VGA so any graphic card can be accessed in same way without need to know anything about vendor, drivers etc. Then driver switches into "accelerated mode" handlind requests and sending data it's own unique way. Possibly BIOS on this odd Mac is bit different dosn't know about that VESA, JEIDA configuration and graphic card is by default set to standard used in Japain? This is why in default mode, on OS that doesn't support your graphics you see colors misconfigured.

[@KabelkowyJoe]

Hope it stay tbhis time, maybe KZbin knows im writing awfully long comments

[@bad_collector]

that's a Pentium card

[@brianterrill9587]

Resource allocation.

[@roycenimchuk8425]

I think the Umax will win

[@xPLAYnOfficial]

This is for the best. I'm hoping you can find the dual CPU card(s) for the other machine.

[@bobfromsoireegames4309]

Clones are.. unnatural

[@aegonthedragon7303]

The Clone Wars.

[@h8pewou]

Great video! I still prefer the S900 though. :)

[@richardestes6499]

Dang. I was leaning towards team UMAX. The asthetics and form factor remind me of the Dell Dimension towers from the Pentium 2 & 3 era.

[@fsfs555]

They're similar to the old Dell Dimension towers (and some Micron Millennia models, among others) because they're basically the same case with a different front panel. Makes getting spare case parts easy though (except for the front, of course).

[@richardestes6499]

@@fsfs555 kinda almost makes it too easy to do a mockup of what an Apple-Dell partnership would look like.

[@mildslope4204]

10:07 "A number of you commented that MineCraft on old Macs is silly and that I *should* stick to period games" Uhhh.. No one said that? IRC we said that you should do period games *aswell* , whats wrong with variation? Are we still going to get that UT99 before and after? Minecraft still manages to be half of the benchmarks.

[@lucyinchat]

"Clone Wars"

[@daverhoads22]

Nice low key optical drive swap at the end ;)

[@ActionRetro]

Hahaha nice catch!

[@d3adman404]

12:50 Geforce????