AD&D - New Player Guide - Thief & Assassin

We discuss the Thief and the Assassin with tips on how to play them, handle them as a DM, and a few cool tricks most folks had no idea on. Don't worry, we cover backstab!
#DnD #Classic_DM #Pathfinder2e
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[@AyebeeMk2]

good balanced view of the assassin, check the dms guide for notes on using thief skills! Also they get to use many more weapon types than thieves. also the assassination / spy mission can be used as the adventure itself. I prefer the spying / disguising side of the abilities now. A note about thieves cant, this language can be used by thieves to tell who they are dealing with, a fellow thief or ...... this information may or may not be shared with the rest of the party!

[@htchkss]

You looked at the magic user and illusionist attack table when you were talking about the rogue assasin @9:15. I had to go back to 5:39 and look at the correct table. It still say 16 so you are still correct, but new players (like myself) might be confused by that.

[@Classic_DM]

Great catch!!!!!

[@donavanb1534]

I think most people forget that thieves get surprise too! In many games, thieves get screwed out of this one ability that even the fighter gets to roll for with atleast a 16% chance of success in even the heaviest of armor. Also, I only think that HiS should only be rolled for if you have to be in Line of Sight of the creature you sneak upon. I mean, why hide in the darkness when you are literally out of view.

[@hallacar]

Yes, Fallout 1 and 2 were great in that you could hide stuff on someone as part of the pick pocket skill. I had never thought of that in terms of AD&D, but can see how it would be very useful. Side note, I went to college with one of the guys who helped make those two games. We used to play MUD's together on the school's big old clunky VAX system using telnet to access a game out of Purdue. I have only ever played one assassin and that was in a Lankhmar campaign. We avoided evil alignments in our normal gaming group. This video has given me a lot of good ideas. Kudos.

[@Classic_DM]

Glad you're enjoying these videos. I think the nostalgia is more powerful than the information and certainly more than the low production value of the videos ;) That's cool you went to college with those guys. Fallout 2 is such a riot and it's a shame that it was never remade in 3D. Microsoft now owns Zenimax who owns the license. A 3D makeover of the core game would be incredible.

[@hallacar]

@@Classic_DM Your videos showed up when I was listening to some other AD&D stuff and I like it more than most of the others because it is true to first edition. I have been listening to them in the background at work. Tomorrow will be one of the spellcaster videos. There is definite nostalgia, but every now and then I can get a group together for a while until we have a divorce, change in job or pandemic that throws the player base off. If I knew anything about producing a video on KZbin I would like to do module reviews with all the stories from experiences I had as a DM or player or the crazy stuff my friends did. The guy I knew from Fallout was Robert Hertenstein III. He was an odd duck but a great guy.

[@wanderinghistorian]

I think if I ran another classic AD&D game I would do an either/or on Find/Remove Traps. It feels like double dipping to me to make them tell you how they find the trap, roll what is often a very small percentage chance AND figure out the trap on their own. My method would be 1) Thief always finds the trap if they are careful and explain how they find it / 2) If thief fails to find it (i.e. blunders into it) they get a throw of their percentile dice to spot it just in the nick of time. Same with disarm. If a thief can explain to me how they are able to physically disarm or avoid the pit trap, for example, then they automatically succeed if it makes sense. If what they explain is insufficient or a mistake, they can throw a disarm check to see if their roguish skills save them. The reason I think making them do both is wrong is the same reason I think making a player give me a convincing lie to the guards AND rolling a Charisma check is unfair. When a fighter makes an attack, you don't make the fighter explain HOW they are able to hit the creature. If the attack roll is successful, he hits and does damage.

[@Classic_DM]

I like this idea. I change the rules in AD&D constantly to be more fun. :)

[@wanderinghistorian]

@@Classic_DM Glad I could give you back something! Same here. It's the only way to run, really. We are constantly improving. :)

[@domosmojo3367]

I got some new books for this addition, they are so cool! The first class I played was the assassin, because I thought they looked cool

[@davidleonard8547]

I've always loved thieves and assassins. Dark alleys. Shadows. Stealth. Shady bars filled with shadier characters. What's not to love? I've always thought they were the most essential character classes--sorry Sir Paladin. Without them, the party would be whittled down by traps before they can meet the big bad. Also, there is no party stealth without them. There's a door at the end of the hall. I open it. It's locked. I turn around and go home. Without the thief or assassin the fighter has to bash it in, alerting every monster to the party's presence. The assassin is much trickier. If you have one in the party, the players are not going to have a lot of paladin friends. I can live with that.... :-)

[@wanderinghistorian]

Please don't forget to do an episode on how you do Ability Score generation, I'm really curious!

[@Classic_DM]

Got it on my list for this weekend!

[@CaptCook999]

I highly recommend that you do not let characters roll for most things like hide in shadows or move silently. It would be much better to roll that as the DM so that they have no idea if they succeed or not. That twig that snaps just as they sneak up on someone could give it away but they may not know that they have been heard. It could be as much a surprise to them when the bad guy moves just as they attack having heard the thief sneak up on them.

[@Classic_DM]

Great point!

[@sonic-bb]

just wanna say, a thief doesnt necessarily have to be a shady person. Swashbukler, pirate (doesnt have to be bad), fencers, ninja, spies, even a bard type character in novels all contributed to the idea of a thief. None of those archetypes (except the pirate maybe) necessarily have to be shady street thug. also the hide in shadows is def not like those other games lol. having to make 2 rolls with low odds on succeeding is def not comparable

[@ChuckBarchuk]

Love these videos. Had a question: A level 11 Assassin would have a Move Silently of 70% and a Hide in Shadows of 56%. Add in a bonus of 5% for having a 17 dexterity you would have a MS of 75% and a HS of 61%. All your thief skills seem to be higher. Are you using different thief tables to determine your scores? Just curious. Thanks.

[@Classic_DM]

Great catch! Looking back, there are two mistakes going on here. First he was level 10 originally, and with his Dexterity bonus I added that to the level 10 thief values. The first mistake is Assassins actually function 2 levels LOWER than, so he would have been 62% MS + 5% = 67%. (As if he was level 8 thief) He leveled up over the course of the adventure of G1, but I never corrected his values. Your values are correct. Nicely done :) PHB Page 9 "Tertiary functions of assassins are the same as thieves. They have all abilities and functions of thieves; but, except for back stabbing, assassins perform thieving at two levels below their assassin level, i.e. a 3rd level assassin has the thieving abilities of a 1st level thief, a 4th level assassin the abilities of a 2nd level thief, etc."

[@ChuckBarchuk]

@@Classic_DM No worries. I just wanted to make sure you weren't using some modified thieving tables as many people seem to house rule those because of how low the chance for success is. I'm really enjoying your series as I just found your channel. Great work my friend. I also noticed is that your characters are all human? Is that on purpose on I assume?

[@ObatongoSensei]

I started playing with AD&D 2nd Edition, but still the thief was my second favorite class after the fighter. Lots of cool and versatile abilities and, despite the lack of brute force in combat, it still could place some opportunity nasty attacks here and there, just not full frontal. I find that these peculiarities have been lost in the later editions, where the rogue has become more a melee dps type of character, rather than the silent, invisible explorer/salvager type. Also, its old poor combat abilities are not a thing in the latest editions, which is bad, since combat should not be their thing at all. Assassination, on the other end...

[@sonic-bb]

Idk. I'm glad they made the thief better in combat now a days. First edition thieves were bad at their own skills and almost useless in combat. Both were dependent on what ur DM allowed of course. But a DM that was "by the book" or just straight up hated thief, the thief was pretty much useless in those campaigns

[@ObatongoSensei]

​@@sonic-bb That was because they had a fixed progression of skill percentages. In 2nd edition, they had points to assign, which allowed a thief to kinda "specialize" by maxing out rapidly just 2 or 3 skills at the start and leave the rest for later. High Dex, the right race and a cleverly chosen kit would add up to further enhance the chosen skills, which ended up making for some pretty efficient characters. They were still not meant to fight though, especially in melee. Too frail and squishy for that. But the occasional backstab could still hurt a lot. At range they could fare fine, especially using cover and concealment. A fighter/thief was a different thing, though. It was the medieval/fantasy version of a special forces soldier.

[@johncartwright6759]

Assassins do not get the back stab ability unless you house rule that they can. Also remember that they preform as a thief 2 levels below there assassin level.

[@Classic_DM]

Good catch on the thieving levels! Awesome. We always read backstab differently. What do you think? Do you read this as no? It seems inclusive language "Assassins attack on the same combat tables as thieves do, including backstabbing." PHB p29 "They have all abilities and functions of thieves; but, except for back stabbing, assassins perform thieving at two levels below their assassin level, i.e. a 3rd level assassin has the thieving abilities of a 1st level thief, a 4th level assassin the abilities of a 2nd level thief, etc." PHB p29 Our group always read that as, yes they have backstab and attack on the same combat table as Thieves, but their thieving abilities are 2 levels lower.

[@donavanb6545]

Actually, Assassins can choose to either: A) Attack Normally B) Backstab at Assassin Level(explains reason why it exempts it for thieving ability) or C) Use the Assassination Table Right above the prime functions of the Assassin it explicitly states, "The Assassin decides which attack mode he or she will use: assassination, back stabbing, or normal melee combat" -Pg 29 of 1e PHB

[@Cyberpuppy63]

@@donavanb6545 One of the key ideas that average players forget, is that AD&D has fairly potent information type spells. Chances are, you may end simply getting your head blown off by a high enough enemy spell caster. It's not a "free ride" in well-run campaigns - Clergy and Wizards will generally seek to exterminate all assassins. Or maybe you'll be turned into a fawning Slave, for the next 500 years.

[@Classic_DM]

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