Adam Curtis on the fall of the Soviet Union's worrying parallels with modern Britain

[@adsyoffinch]

“The reason you feel bad is because you live in a shitty society, that’s not really discussed anymore…” It’s certainly something that should be, a lot of us who think we are depressed, anxious or just in bad mental health probably aren’t, we just live in a shit world where we are told that the problem is us. I’m taking that thinking into my daily life; I’m not sick, the world is just shit.

[@richsan4923]

David Smail wrote a series of books about this as a phycologist well worth looking up!

[@robertsolem9234]

It's very convenient for concentrations of power to have everyone taking "personal responsibility" for "their issues"; everyone is kept occupied with the demons in their head, rather than going out into the world and addressing the things that created these demons in the first place.

[@monkeydotbizness]

If you’re depressed and anxious and feeling alienated it’s likely you’re perceiving the world for the pile of shit that it generally is.

[@chingadapistolero]

I think that's probably a very healthy approach!

[@StoutProper]

Apparently it’s not so bad in Holland and Denmark, amongst other places

[@pipster1891]

We don't understand what the Russians went through 30 years ago but we still don't understand what the Russians went through in WW2. In Britain, it's like, oh we had the Blitz, weren't those doodlebugs terrible, weren't the king and queen marvellous and Churchill won the war. In Russia 28 million people died.

[@PauliusTautvydas]

Russians have started the war and got a bit of their own medicine.

[@StoutProper]

The British who lived and fought through the war did to a certain extent, Russians had the sympathy of that generation. The real problem is the Americans who don’t understand and don’t care. Russia’s feels threatened and the longer this goes on the more likely it is to end in nuclear war

[@PauliusTautvydas]

​@@StoutProper you fail to understand Russia so much, that your yapping about "Americans who don't understand" something seems like just some kind of bad satire. But then again, apologism of corrupt, falling empire is what some middle aged, ultraconservative Brits like you can do best. Can't go back to crying about your own misunderstood empire, eh?

[@StoutProper]

@@PauliusTautvydas I’m a 24 year old Irish Republican, so you’re way off the mark. Typical American, not a clue about anything or anyone outside their state.

[@PauliusTautvydas]

@@StoutProper yeah well, then you're one hell of a lost 24 year old British (I don't really care whether it's Ireland or Wales) Republican. Don't drink so much beer and maybe you won't buy that deep into imperialist propaganda. That'll be good both for your physical and psychological health.

[@aaronogden9900]

It's a parallel I noticed while reading about the final decades of the USSR. In the USSR older generations who prospered after WW2 where more pro communism than those born in the late 1960s and onwards who knew nothing but stagnation. In the UK people 31 or younger have only known working in an economy thats going nowhere.

[@olivercuenca4109]

Yeah, it's the distinction between upper case 'Conservatism' - i.e. the ideology, and lower case c 'conservatism', where even if the government claims to be left wing, it can still fall into the trap of becoming the Establishment if it hangs around long enough. In the USSR I suppose that stuff probably goes back to Stalin.

[@ascendedbro1828]

There was no stagnation lol. Stagnation is what happened after the collapse of USSR

[@themsmloveswar3985]

Well....that is the objective.....relentless wage repression.

[@ineshvaladolenc6559]

As odd as this sounds, people were more pro-communism under Lenin and Stalin, as vilified as they are in the contemporary Western media. It was the Khrushchevites and other revisionists, with their "de-Stalinisation" which took a working union and slowly ran it into the ground. Eventually as result of continuous renouncement of Stalin, an ideological vacuum occurred. People began to reject communism altogether. Coupled with economic stagnation, a cynicism gripped over the Soviet society. Eventually that culminated in the breakdown of the system, and replacement with a new, Western inspired capitalism and democracy... And it failed miserably, giving rise to the oligarchs, mostly older party functionaries who looted state assets and profited over the suffering of others. Both the fanatical Marxism and Bolshevism of the early 20th century, as well as starry eyed liberal idealism of the late 20th century failed Russia. This is why the current iteration of Russia is non-ideological. It is socially conservative as per old Russian tradition, and economically close to European style social democracy, except with more oligarchs but who are not allowed to interfere in politics as per the arrangement with Putin.

[@Muzikman127]

@@ascendedbro1828 no, after the collapse of the USSR there wasn't stagnation, there was rapid, brutal, massive decline, and destruction. That's much much worse than stagnation

[@stevea.b.9282]

I could listen to Adam Curtis all day. He affirms our fears and confusion, gives us reasons for why we feel this way instead of telling us to feel different, and re-focuses and clarifies the whole situation. Great interview Joe!

[@benfennell6842]

Listen to voices that challenge and reinforce your ideas: not just one. People who tell you exactly what you want to hear arent automatically better to be listening to: even if they are right.

[@casteretpollux]

Listen to Jeffrey Sachs too

[@blatherskite3009]

Many thanks to Adam Curtis for putting this series together. I'd been getting increasingly annoyed with the way the BBC (and other UK media) report every belch and hiccup that happens in US politics as if it's of worldwide importance, but doesn't give even a hundredth of that coverage to other major nations. Watching "TraumaZone," it was fascinating to compare what was unfolding on-screen with my own understanding, gleaned from the UK media, of the history of what happened in Russia during that period, and the motivations of the key players - and discovering how utterly deficient it was. Gorbachev, for example, I recall being portrayed as a great reformer, the man who took Russia out of Communism; a guy the West could do business with, and therefore a "good guy." And then there's "TraumaZone" telling me Gorbachev was in fact attempting to save Communism - the opposite of the image I'd been given. Yeltsin, I realised, was portrayed in Western media as nothing more than a drunkard. But watching "TraumaZone" I realised what a Trump/BoJo-like character he was, and that Russia had "gone there" with its own Trump long before the US had theirs, and the UK had their Britain-Trump. In fact, the whole series actually left me wondering whether Russia had been some experimental test-bed for all sorts of social experiments that have since been applied to the West, e.g. what happens if we let Capitalism run riot, completely unfettered? What happens if we make the people wary of democracy by showing them that democracy, as a system, can produce these crazy wildcard leaders? Anyway, a fascinating series and many thanks for the education it provided :)

[@alexcarter8807]

This post needs more upvotes. It's a bit tiring living in The Most Important Country(tm) and it's nice to see views from outside the US empire. Very good points about Gorby and Yeltsin.

[@kisfekete]

Adam Curtis is one of the few Westerners who actually understand how the Soviet bloc disintegrated. I'm saying this as a person who was on the wrong side of the Iron Curtain at that time.

[@jonnysupreme]

Debating which side is worse tbh 😆

[@earthman6700]

@@jonnysupreme We have the resources to provide a relatively modern lifestyle for almost everyone. A 'Community' Political system might be it. Rather than appealing to certain elements of society. Sounds a bit like communism...

[@aluisious]

@@jonnysupreme The Western side is the one that is doing the heavy lifting when it comes to destroying the world for future generations.

[@kisfekete]

​@@jonnysupreme Such relativism is the luxury of Western populations who either lived a rather sheltered existence in the past 40-50 years or were not even alive at the time. For the people there, at that place and at that time, there was no debate. Eastern Europe was the side worse off. Period. That's why the whole system collapsed completely, like a wet turd castle, and that is why it it could not be saved neither by the usual political reform-and-consolidate measures (like it happened in Hungary, or with Gorbachev) nor by military force (like in Romania, or the 1991 coup in the Soviet Union).

[@M20RUM]

& I agree - as someone who has travelled and witnessed the fallout from that.

[@DaboooogA]

Adam Curtis is an archive wizard, and arguably the most important filmmaker alive.

[@johndavies5985]

He's good but hold on, he's not that good. Oliver Stone and Ken Loach are better.

[@richardallan2767]

Certainly the best documentary maker,

[@adsyoffinch]

@@johndavies5985 they’re a different kind aren’t they? They tell stories that represent society, Curtis disembowels society and presents you with all the bloody, gory horror that boils away beneath the surface of the real world. Loach shows you a powerful representation, Curtis shows you the reality.

[@Elcore]

@@richardallan2767 Slow down - no one's managed to lethally shoot Werner Herzog yet, despite numerous attempts.

[@annakissed3226]

Adam your question as to the way forward has been answered many, many times before. Its the answer to the paradox of the need for both individualality & belonging. It is antithesis of autocracy. Autocracy comes not just from the extreme right and the extreme left but also from the extreme middle Autocracy comes from desire for certainty, a need to know that their is an underlying structure, a science of understanding, a need to find the purest essence that explains everything, of testing people for their purity. To seeking the one, typically a man, who can like God (another human meme) lead us all What is the inverse of that? What is its antithesis? It starts with diversity but builds on that diversity by teaching everybody how to lead. Its in leadership that we gather people and resources around us and strike out to achieve a goal. But the point is that its not leaders & followers. Its only leaders, So take this now, what your doing right now, right here! Your taking leadership in this & I am lending you some resources & insight & it might be helping, but its up to you to decide if needs to be included or not - because YOU ARE THE LEADER and I'm too busy doing my own projects to have the time or tuits/spoons to put into this your project. The idea of everyone as leaders is as old as the hills. It stands at the core of consious raising movements. At the start of the black & base civil rights movements and the LGBTQIA+ movements and Of Age & disability rights movements. Its not new and there multiple courses in how to make these things happen over decades A really useful set of tools can be found in the re-evaluation co- counseling community But their are others all over the place and lots of people have been trained in them So a lot of the work has been done it just needs to be written large in our schools, along with how to do critical thinking. And changing our schools so that you do your classroom teaching from well produced videos dispatched to anyone via the Web but the homework & discussion of the ideas & the writing of papers in class with everybody else. You can even have the classes filled with pupils learning with each other but on different things at their own rates coming together in virtual classrooms where the students are people from across the country working together to solve that module. The point is this provides a sense of collectivness of us all coming together to sacrifice & learn together Whilst providing maximum diversity in what you choose to learn for your benefit.

[@jul7857]

I’ve been watching the Traumazone (all 7 episodes) all Sunday night long. I live in Russia all my life, I am 33, but I am still in such shock that I can’t sleep normally the second night. Can’t stop thinking about everything. Learning the history and listen to the elders opinions is one thing… but now I’ve got a feeling that I experienced all this horror and I'm just sad and endlessly hurt.

[@manucnbiaelmaturana2754]

Do you still live in Russia now?

[@rogink]

I'd be interested to learn what younger Russians like you learnt about the Soviet system. It seems that a lot of older Russians think back with nostalgia of those days, even if at the time, they enviously looked to the West for all its wonderful consumer goods. They crave the stability of a strong leader. Even if life was very dull, it was predictable. Were you told about the food shortages and queues for bread in the 80s? Or the political prisoners and the Gulag system? Of even Soviet foreign policy and its proxy wars in Africa?

[@ThickRedPaste]

@@rogink The Gulags were a Stalinist idea, not communism

[@rogink]

@@ThickRedPaste Who cares whose idea they were? They happened in the Soviet Union. Are you saying Russians shouldn't learn about their history under the Soviet system?

[@ThickRedPaste]

@@rogink No, I was saying that you can’t put the responsibility of millions of deaths on an ideology (unless we were talking about Nazi’s) it’s the people that execute and have biases that are to blame. Edit: And when you say “learning history” you probably don’t know what to point out. You can’t say that a biased and one sided report is history.

[@frojoswaggins]

Honestly some of the most optimistic analysis I've heard in a long time. The fact that nobody actually really has a clue about what is going on, means we can still do something about it, if we actually start thinking and working together.

[@malloc7108]

The bit 20 minutes in about collective responsibility and looking out for one another is surprisingly optimistic.

[@adamnouiguer3430]

@Bhodisatvas London Calling to the faraway towns Now war is declared and battle comes down London Calling to the underworld Come out of the cupboard, you boys and girls Etc Etc, I can't be bothered to write it all down.

[@HominisLupis]

Lol

[@Alison-LoveAndUnity]

The Green Party does and Corbyn did but hey our so called democracies ensure neither of those will ever be allowed near power.

[@drewzi2044]

No one ever had a clue about what was going on. That is the sobering lesson of the 20th century. They were just able to delude themselves more before mass media. The other lesson is that the more the modern nation state tries to hold to its role on the global stage, the more it becomes obvious that it is a technology that isnt suitable for a moden decentrailsied world and all it does now is causes havoc in people's lives.

[@joecrabtree395]

How on earth have I just discovered via this video that Adam Curtis has a new documentary out. This should be promoted EVERYWHERE! This may be the best thing the BBC releases this year...

[@Espacemtl]

My thought exactly!

[@miyojewoltsnasonth2159]

*From Wikipedia:* "In a departure from his usual style, Curtis opted not to use voiceovers or non-diegetic music. Curtis, in a piece in The Guardian, explained this choice was because the footage was 'so strong that I didn’t want to intrude pointlessly, but rather let viewers simply experience what was happening'." I was bored to tears. Am I the only one who *absolutely loves* Adam Curtis but *didn't give a rat's ass* about _TraumaZone?_ *What exactly does everybody actually like about **_TraumaZone?_*

[@walidb123]

The most important filmmaker Britain has had for many years

[@nodisalsi]

…who wasn't censored like Pater Watkins was. (RIP)

[@petrichor649]

And maybe the most interesting.

[@MrVas78]

He is but no one watches his stuff...that’s the problem. Too busy staring at immigration policies

[@david-spliso1928]

@@MrVas78 Illegal immigration by economic migrants. Seriously unfair on legal immigrants and refugees.

[@MrVas78]

@@david-spliso1928 home office problem, tax funded so it’s on them to sort out not for grifters to politicise based on bigotry

[@JosephusAurelius]

Adam “and then something strange happened” Curtis. Love his films especially Hypernormalisation.

[@notgarybrown]

I even read it in his voice 🤣

[@benday1218]

'but that was a fantasy, instead.....'

[@ennesshay5040]

From 2016 ~ the 1min 43sec ''The Coming War on China - a film by John Pilger - Official Trailer.'' Pause it at the 1.18 mark !!! Plus ( from Dec 2021 ) ''Shocking LBC Debate Shows New Cold War with China,'' the 14.37 video by Novara Media.

[@Elcore]

But they were all wrong.

[@bigeddiespaghetti5618]

“A new wave of intellectuals with optimistic outlooks arose”

[@artconsciousness]

Curtis is the Picasso of our troubled times. His work should be obligatory watching in schools but if they were it could very well cause a revolution. I have been watching Curtis documentaries for decades now, some of them I have seen several times and each time I watch them I still discover something new. That's how deep his work goes.

[@grahamberrie2462]

Great comment, totally agree

[@miyojewoltsnasonth2159]

*From Wikipedia:* "In a departure from his usual style, Curtis opted not to use voiceovers or non-diegetic music. Curtis, in a piece in The Guardian, explained this choice was because the footage was 'so strong that I didn’t want to intrude pointlessly, but rather let viewers simply experience what was happening'." I was bored to tears. Am I the only one who *absolutely loves* Adam Curtis but *didn't give a rat's ass* about _TraumaZone?_ *What exactly does everybody actually like about **_TraumaZone?_*

[@artconsciousness]

@@miyojewoltsnasonth2159 If someone doest get "TraumaZone" then they don't get it. May be later they will. Anyone who grew up in those turbulent time though will have not trouble getting it. This is history shown in a way it should be shown. From the perspective of the eyes of the people rather than through the eyes of the news media or professors of history.

[@CatnamedMittens]

That implies that people know of an alternative, which they don't.

[@jimbob-robob]

Picasso? Don't you mean Henri Cartier-Bresson or Don McCullin?

[@geordiedog1749]

I worked as a CBT in IAPTS for ten years and I can completely concur with what they are saying about well being and mental heath. It’s spot on. We were just papering over the cracks. One of the best summations of the current state of the world/country I’ve heard. Excellent

[@mbrierley144brierley3]

Corbyn offered an alternative but he scared those who own most of the assets so much, they had to destroy him

[@Ballardian]

Yep, Corbyn was the UK's last chance of having something resembling a humane government. It won't happen again.

[@joby19881]

I've just finished watching Traumazone and have been champing at the bit to hear from Adam Curtis about it. This is a brilliant interview, and like he said, makes me feel strangely optimistic in a way. I hope we can work out a better way forward.

[@StoutProper]

We’re going to need far better leaders than we’ve had for the past decade or so, and there’s no sign of them on the horizon. Things are going to get a lot worse before they get better

[@Bandanko]

from the power of nightmares to Bitter lake (notseen his last few yet) this man has single handedily taught me more than ANY person i have ever known

[@miyojewoltsnasonth2159]

Agreed. And interesting you stopped at _Bitter Lake._

[@miyojewoltsnasonth2159]

*From Wikipedia:* "In a departure from his usual style, Curtis opted not to use voiceovers or non-diegetic music. Curtis, in a piece in The Guardian, explained this choice was because the footage was 'so strong that I didn’t want to intrude pointlessly, but rather let viewers simply experience what was happening'." I was bored to tears. Am I the only one who *absolutely loves* Adam Curtis but *didn't give a rat's ass* about _TraumaZone?_ *What exactly does everybody actually like about **_TraumaZone?_*

[@lolcatjunior]

You should really watch his other series they are just as good or even better.

[@gfarrell80]

Century of Self, Hypernormalization, and Can't Get You Out of My Head are IMHO his best.

[@voltydequa845]

As you can see from some comments, the admirers are limited to just admiring. Have a talk, on concrete topics, and you'll see that cognitive quality does not correspond to the quality of admiration.

[@djd8305]

I'm paraphrasing, but 'We don't realise what it was like for millions of Russians thirty years ago.' is a fantastic start to this video!

[@octavianpopescu4776]

As an Eastern European, I would also add "And both the West and the Russians don't realise what it was like for us." What I mean by that is that our Eastern European experience is closer to countries like those in Africa and Russia was a version of what the Western empires were for Africans and Indians and other people. I'll never forget the Kenyan ambassador to the UN talk about his country and telling Russia what's what... He understood what was happening, because his country lived through what we lived in the East.

[@KW-hk2jd]

Exactly. Boo hoo Russia - a lot of other countries have gone through Much worse so suck it.

[@djd8305]

@@octavianpopescu4776 I agree. Russian Communism was a destructive force. On top of Russia being ruled with an iron fist before Lenin and his gang took over, I read a comment somewhere that Russia was the worst country in which to try Communism as it was a rural/agrarian society not urban/industrial. So from the start the Communist Party had it wrong.

[@djd8305]

@@KW-hk2jd No. I meant that it was a bad thing. I've travelled a lot - including traveling through Iran in 2019, and one sure thing is sure. That People aren't the problem, it's Governments that cause the trouble. Yep people make up governments, but they don't decide to be oppressed.

[@KW-hk2jd]

@@djd8305 I was agreeing with Octavian Popescu, not you. The reason oppressive governments stand for so long is that they maintain a core of true believers, along with a corrupt elite. That's the sad truth.

[@kendrickpi]

Three things are needed: 1. Proportional representation; 2. Land Value Taxation, replacing local business tax and personal income tax; 3. A revised Beveridge settlement to fight todays giant evils. These things I know, these things I desire for the UK.

[@erisu69]

Incredible insight from Adam Curtis as usual. His observation about society's current obsession with individual trauma is absolutely spot on.

[@utubeape]

it really works well in cultures who have been traumatised by Christianity

[@adams8847]

great observer, a true observer mind as john le carre would have said!!! good shit

[@al1sa920]

I live in Russia and I started realizing the existence of such problem when State Duma proposed requirement for students who get budget-funded education to work in remote places for 3-5 years. Also government is highly encouraging doctors to work in small villages (and the name of this program is a reverence to a book named "A Young Doctor's Notebook" by Bulgakov). My parents were working like this because such practice was wildly used in the Soviet Union (it was also very encouraging since such jobs paid very well) and I fully understand the importance of such practice. However I was raised in the society where radical individualism is the main thing and while I'm aware that society is more important than single individual, I can't imagine myself doing this. I decided for myself to enjoy freedom and then eventually get to the point when I will work towards society and not only for my own benefit

[@animarriott]

Adam Curtis has almost the clarity of Orwell. So important, and remarkably uplifting, despite our apalling state of affairs.

[@dh1380]

That is high praise indeed 🙌

[@Wackaz]

Only Orwell was a liar and a moron and Curtis is neither of those things.

[@the1andonlytitch]

To be fair things weren't great during Orwell's time

[@MrSimeonk]

Orwell also became disillusioned with Marxist Communism while recognising Western capitalism was equally flawed.

[@richsan4923]

@@MrSimeonk he also worked in the security services!

[@Google_Does_Evil_Now]

Liz Truss is an ex-Shell executive. Shell have recently become one of the largest energy suppliers in the UK. They have a shocking contract created with them and the government where they can increase bills by 400% even though the costs of getting British gas and British oil out of the ground has NOT increased. It's our gas and oil, from our land. They are just extracting it for us. Why aren't we ONLY paying them an extraction fee? Why aren't the Tories going after the executives from these exploitative businesses as hard as they go after the working people of Britain? Oh look, the Tory government are also executives of these same rip-off companies with exploitative contracts! They are stealing from us in so many ways.

[@acolli777]

They keep blaming the energy crisis on the war in Ukraine but don't even consider passing a "wartime act" to do as u have suggested: make the energy companies sell OUR gas to us at a fair profit not at exorbitant rip off prices

[@richsan4923]

You answer your own question. The Tories are representatives of a faction of the British capitalist class.

[@pipster1891]

I don't think it's right to say nobody has any idea of an alternative. Plenty of people do. We're just not allowed to implement any of it. Curtis's idea that it just needs one person to offer something different and run with it and the world will change is nonsense; there's a whole massive system out there designed to stop that.

[@danger.snakes]

Ironically he falls prey to the same radical individualism he (rightfully) despises. He, on the one side of things, extols the virtue of mass movements, but then suggests all it takes is one man with the right idea. Well, maybe if that man was Karl Marx, but short of that, who's to say? And how many of those are left?

[@StoutProper]

Agree with both of you. I think things will have to get a lot worse before things change, and at the moment it looks like they are going to get a lot worse. Unfortunately I expect we will be dragged into a war to stop things having to change too much, and all the young people who would drive any change will be killed instead.

[@sichambers9011]

Agreed. The institutions of the UK prevent real democratic participation. It's elite that have no idea beyond filling their own pockets and protecting their privilege

[@StoutProper]

@@sichambers9011 and to the end they’ve decided to shadow ban your comment

[@OrwellsHousecat]

👍🏽

[@jt.124]

Trauma zone is an amazing and insightful series. Also I’ve listened to this interview multiple times. Curtis makes some amazing comparisons I have never thought about.

[@zachthornton8337]

Fantastic interview. Adam has some great insights into the malaise plaguing Britain. I was born in 1991 and the first 25 years of my life it really felt like nothing existed. Nothing to believe in. Nothing to fight for. It was great just pursuing what you want as an individual, as Adam says, until our system began breaking down with inequality accelerating. Whereas, now every day feels like living through history. Such a strange but unnerving feeling.

[@Domdeone1]

Each of us is out in the words alone

[@Destro7000]

"inequality accelerating" fucking lol. Equality is communism. Inequality is the natural state of humans that elevates them out of poverty.

[@JosephusAurelius]

8:35 Curtis completely summarises the current state of British politics. Incredible

[@ChrisKeziahHyde]

I'd say 5:31 is pretty accurate

[@SOMEHANDSOME]

it is basically a russian folk saying I grew up with - `make things much worse rapidly, and then return everything to how things were before`. /paraphrasing/ bang - you`re a hero, not the tyrant you were yesterday. amazingly enough, formula worked, until /relatively/recently, when magic trick was exposed.

[@drdavid1963]

@@ChrisKeziahHyde No one knows the alternative and everyone is completely beaten down by 12 years of austerity, the failed experiment of democracy in Brexit, 2 years of Covid and now inflation and the cost-of-living crisis. What's surreal is many of those same people will simply vote the Tories in again. It's what has been accepted as the new normality but, I think things haven't been normal for about 15 years and everyone's forgotten. I know he touched on individualism but for me, it's the lack of engagement in collective life which is really damaging long term. Covid hasn't helped. But I think Curtis is right in identifying the need for an alternative. Otherwise, things will get worse and we'll end up like Russia before too long.

[@drdavid1963]

@@ChrisKeziahHyde Watch this about new book called How Economists Invented Austerity and Paved the Way To Fascism - kzbin.info/www/bejne/pZepg2SjeZeIha8

[@drdavid1963]

@Paul Fournet It's not so much what I experienced but the ideological policy of austerity itself

[@person.X.]

I reckon Adam Curtis's analysis of our current situation is the most honest and thoughtful I have yet heard. He seems a very open minded guy. One of those people who is able to look at the world and attempt to see what is really going on as opposed to trying to impose his own self serving dogma. A very harsh judgement on the Dartford marshes though 🤣. One of my favourite places in the UK and I don't see it as full of knuckle dragging racists, not least because there are very few people living there. Lots of people in Dartford itself and the surrounding urban areas but in my experience they are a pretty good natured bunch and half of them are immigrants anyway.

[@ZealothPL]

I don't think he meant that they are knuckle draggers, but that the people living there have been suffering destitution and austerity for decades, so it's no wonder they threw in a wrench into gears of a system that is crushing them

[@dogmatictales]

The dartford marshes thing was a joke

[@krayon_eater]

*wooosh*

[@mral4381]

Facebook created an algorithm to detect "racism". It discovered that immigrants in the UK very vastly more prone to it than any of the indigenous inhabitants. Hard times ahead for all, guaranteed.

[@Dreyno]

The difference is that Britain does have the potatoes. But the people who sowed and harvested them are being told they can’t have any potatoes because the people at the top want more potatoes than they could ever eat and the government are helping them to keep them.

[@telesamgram1318]

Adam is so apocalyptic in his films and in contrast so reassuring in this interview it makes this something to admire. Hope he's back to tell us what is wrong with the BBC and preferably being more specific than he is here. Thank you Joe!

[@dirkkoopman174]

For what it's worth, I offer this observation: During the 1980s, in Norfolk, there was a strong and healthy cadre of volunteers from all ages and walks of life for all sorts of useful organisations like St John's Ambulance as well as youth organisations like Scouting etc. By the 1990s, "working people" started to drop out at an alarming rate, to the extent that the volunteers that remained, were either retired or had sufficient money to devote the necessary spare time. And the reason those "working people" gave? Not enough money to pay the bills; we're working double shifts or second jobs; our partners have to work work as well; so we need to expensive child care (which frequently subsumed up 80+% of the extra wages earned). People because too busy working and/or too tired to volunteer. They most definitely had "no spare time". But, should they have thought that they did have some spare time then rather than volunteer, they would try a get a paying job to fill it. Until people can work for a truly living wage, one that allows people to rest and have some quality leisure time, Britain will continue to elect grandiloquent people like Boris to make "grand gestures" like Brexit "happen" to the further detriment of the people living in the UK. Good luck with sorting that out.

[@normskilight]

Adam Curtis is one the of these people who I wish was wrong. Through his films (that I've got a lot out of over the years) he paints a picture of humans (by their increasingly convoluted methods) being generally pretty sh**ty to eachother. But he's not wrong, the almost unchecked concentration of power and wealth is the the result of our current reward systems. It's these systems that need to change. And while you'd be a brave person to claim you have a solution ready to go, what increasingly encourages me is that sentiment is changing. I now feel I have more and more in common with more and more of my fellow humans from everywhere on the planet than ever, from the guy in the office I'd previously clash with on everything, to the protesters I've never met in Iran. And even in spite of the censorship and control from those who benefit from the current system, I see more compatriots wherever I look. And that's the start of something better, I'm optimistic.

[@rossleeson8626]

I can’t help but be cynical about Iran. The stuff on the news has always been happening. I feel like we’re being conditioned for some good old democratic altruism.

[@geroffmilan3328]

@@rossleeson8626 things definitely look different in Iran this time. The last couple of times there has been major strife, they have been able to pit people against each other: those with water against those without, for example. And they went for brutal crackdowns after only 2 weeks. This time there appear to be no sides to divide & conquer, and it seems they realise that shooting or beating schoolgirls isn't a particularly viable reaction to the death of a very young woman in custody. Certainty is for the ignorant, but change is possible...

[@joby19881]

Very well put!

[@richardc861]

I agree but feel algorithms are growing stronger by the day and to the detriment of society. Reality is being distorted at such a level now that I find it hard to know what truth is.

[@kevinjohnbetts]

@@richardc861 I think what you mean is that discerning facts from within the welter of opinion that we are bombarded with is increasingly difficult. Thirty years ago there were only a few perspectives on anything and it wasn't hard to work out what was actually happening. Now we have social media, KZbin channels, blogs, and the 'old' media all chasing smaller demographics. Each outlet spins the facts in order to appeal to its target audience meaning that everything you read, see, or hear, is subjective. Going in search of 'The Truth' involves being prepared to get uncomfortable. In my experience most people don't want to do that. They want to keep their beliefs simple and easy to convey. Even Curtis falls into that trap when he talks about 'The Climate Change Movement' because there isn't one. He's inadvertently following the narrative of the small groups who deny anthropogenic global warming and frame it as 'us against them'. Sorry that got away from me slightly. Brevity was never my strong suit. 😎

[@Mirandorl]

This honestly left me scratching my head. Adam points out that in Russia, the oligarchs at least just _happened upon_ a way to make chaos work for them. They didn't choose the chaos, communism made the choice for them. But in the UK and the US, as Adam says, we keep seeing the same thing. A series of choices that benefit the most wealthy, and harm the poorest. Am I the only one seeing this? If you hold wealth and power, and you keep making the same "mistake" again, and again, and again; and that "mistake" gives you more wealth and power whilst always stripping it from others ... Is it really a David Icke fever dream to suggest the hypothesis that this just might be by design? Is this meant as an exercise for the listener to complete the sentence? I can understand when the markets do it. That's what they are designed to do. But when it constantly ends up enshrined as public policy, deliberate action certainly does not seem a far fetched conclusion.

[@thedualtransition6070]

Before the collapse of communism, through the 1960s and 1970s increasingly kleptocratic, corrupt elements took shape within the communist party. Once Gorbachev set the collapse train in progress these elements grabbed the opportunity. Gaidar, a member of the communist nomenklatura, explicitly stated that he did shock therapy to make a return to communism impossible. In 1993, they destroyed democracy in Russia to stop the parliament from putting a stop to the chaos that facilitated the looting. At the same time the Western financiers both facilitated and took part in the looting. The chaos did not just "happen", Adam sees the images on the wall but doesn't investigate who produced the images and why. All surface analysis and no real political economy. He seems to be very insightful, but in reality his analysis is very superficial in many ways.

[@Voltan]

its almost like we live in a _kleptocracy..._

[@thegreatdream8427]

This is the fundamental nature of capitalism. The current economic system is and has for hundreds of years been essentially a wealthy class, containing both the business owners and the politicians, working together to maintain their control and siphon wealth from everyone else. The market is rigged in their favor by the government. A truly free market wouldn't do that, but there actually has never been a truly free market - even back when propaganda claims the economy was laissez faire, it wasn't - it was just more *blatantly* rigged in favor of the rich. The problem here is the continued survival of states whose sole purpose is and has always been to protect the rich from the poor. A democratic revolution from the bottom up, where people reject the idea of "representatives" in some faraway capital and instead govern themselves locally by direct democracy in a series of federated levels via instantly recallable delegates who have no power to make decisions without ratification by referendum, may be what we need to revitalize the world. Consider the example of democratic confederalism in the autonomous cities of northeast Syria, which operate on similar lines - or more generally look into the history of anarchist thought, particularly the strain known as mutualism, which I think is the most reasonable direction to go from where we are, as it doesn't require a radical break from the market system but only a series of specific reforms that ultimately boil down to ending the wealthy class's centuries-old rigging in their favor, and gradually dismantling the state in favor of more and more local autonomy, returning control over people's lives to the people themselves. Kevin Carson's book "Studies in Mutualist Political Economy" is very eye opening, both in its explanation of how the economy really works, and could be reworked, and in its description of the history of the current system - the *extremely corrupt* history. It's mainly focused on America after it reaches the 20th century, but I expect similar things happened in Britain.

[@nd15music73]

You're right except for you also miss that 'the oligarchs' were a part of the western system and the elites of the u.s were running russia in the 90s and 'the russian oligarchs' was coordinated with the u.s.a. a good video on this is on youtube titled 'Who Were The Oligarchs Who Plundered Russia?' by Keith Woods.

[@nickthurn6449]

We are seeing a lot of populists harnessing the anger of ordinary people and turning it against the tried and tested solutions seen in much of northern Europe. Inequality isn't really the problem - no one cares when everyone has "enough" but a few are obscenely wealthy - it's when Mr & Mrs Average are suddenly having their livelihoods sucked dry by employers with the connivance of government that people lose hope. In a sane world there would be no billionaires - no one needs or can even spend that sort of money but it does but a lot of protection and influence.

[@matthewdyer4752]

Adam is excellent at explaining in simple terms the complexities of the systems that govern us. The systems that we don't learn about in school

[@miyojewoltsnasonth2159]

*From Wikipedia:* "In a departure from his usual style, Curtis opted not to use voiceovers or non-diegetic music. Curtis, in a piece in The Guardian, explained this choice was because the footage was 'so strong that I didn’t want to intrude pointlessly, but rather let viewers simply experience what was happening'." I was bored to tears. Am I the only one who *absolutely loves* Adam Curtis but *didn't give a rat's ass* about _TraumaZone?_ *What exactly does everybody actually like about **_TraumaZone?_*

[@DV-dt9sq]

I haven't seen this documentary yet, but you are right about learning about the system in schools. And, of course there is a reason for that...people on power do't want citizens to know it, because they might want to change it. It reminds me of the catholic church who forbid people from reading a bible. It was forbidden...the church was the only one who would tell them what was written in it...the church (priests) were the the only ones who could tell you what god wants. Total control of information.

[@JelloTypeR]

⁠@@DV-dt9sqexactly. That why there was such slow progress and the church controlled the information. Until Gutenberg when books became more widely available to the people. The progress graph resembles a hockey stick.

[@HeathcliffBlair]

Excellent interview. Thanks. Human ennuis is incredibly difficult to pin down. Modern tech communication has given people just enough information for them to realise that established societal systems don't really work and never really have. Unfortunately it's also given them too many diverse channels to express their dissatisfaction, and some of those channels are corrupt and corrupting. Tricky to say the least. Atomised individuals within atomised groups within atomised societies. BTW That Russian computer researched "stacked heels" strategy reminds me of the old Monty Python bit where a mega-corporation programmes a computer to solve the meaning of life. It returns with "People aren't wearing enough hats". 😀

[@miyojewoltsnasonth2159]

*From Wikipedia:* "In a departure from his usual style, Curtis opted not to use voiceovers or non-diegetic music. Curtis, in a piece in The Guardian, explained this choice was because the footage was 'so strong that I didn’t want to intrude pointlessly, but rather let viewers simply experience what was happening'." I was bored to tears. Am I the only one who *absolutely loves* Adam Curtis but *didn't give a rat's ass* about _TraumaZone?_ *What exactly does everybody actually like about **_TraumaZone?_*

[@benclarke4470]

@@miyojewoltsnasonth2159 I think it speaks to some more than others. I allowed myself to be taken in by what I was seeing and actually, I think I learnt more from the video narration about the fall than I could have ever learnt from books. For me, the silent documentary made me realise a sense of commonality with others around the world that our societies are desperate to suppress. It didn't need narration, we spend our lives being told what to think, this was about just ingesting raw material and making our own interpretations.

[@TheSeanj87]

“Not just the right , but the Liberals and the Left are celebrating a ‘return to calm’ which is mad’ Um……No? The left isn’t celebrating it at all, have I lost my mind? Can anyone else help me out here?

[@funbarsolaris2822]

You're right, it's the liberals not the left, Curtis (as much as I like and respect him) often conflates the two. Is it just me or is the inspiring new model for society exactly what Corbyn was proposing? Hasn't he been proved right in the most extraordinary way?

[@TheSeanj87]

@@funbarsolaris2822 I agree

[@maxhaughton1964]

You have reached the entropic end-state of curtisism - Curtis usually exists like a sage old orangutan in the tree above the monkeys on the ground. He has genuine prescience fairly frequently but rarely in the specifics of people and real (day-to-day vote winning) movements.

[@raymondanderson3624]

He talks as if the West had absolutely nothing to do with the collapse of the Soviet Union.

[@brentoneccles]

@@funbarsolaris2822 Corbyn’s programme is certainly the only hope for saving Capitalism from itself.

[@smon4164]

I was captivated by "Century of the Self" and everything else Adam Curtis has done. He's so eloquent in inviting you to put your foot down on the break and take a look at what's actually going on, from an outside perspective.

[@paid14]

And them soundtracks tho

[@miyojewoltsnasonth2159]

*From Wikipedia:* "In a departure from his usual style, Curtis opted not to use voiceovers or non-diegetic music. Curtis, in a piece in The Guardian, explained this choice was because the footage was 'so strong that I didn’t want to intrude pointlessly, but rather let viewers simply experience what was happening'." I was bored to tears. Am I the only one who *absolutely loves* Adam Curtis but *didn't give a rat's ass* about _TraumaZone?_ *What exactly does everybody actually like about **_TraumaZone?_*

[@smon4164]

@@paid14 The soundtracks are haunting, they fit the mood perfectly.

[@smon4164]

@@miyojewoltsnasonth2159 I have not see TraumaZone, but century of the self and his stuff he did with Charlie Brooker on screen-wipe are next level, they quite frankly put him in a higher level than any 'mainstream' documentary filmmaker. It's too bad that the ones who are indoctrinated into the manufacturing of consent are the ones who are most likely to never find the time to self educate themselves about it by watching such documentaries.

[@peterrenn6341]

@@miyojewoltsnasonth2159 I agree Traumazone is a bit of a shock after the usual Curtis formula of eye-candy visuals and calm, compelling voice over but I love his work so I stuck with it - and after a while I 'got' what he was doing. As he says he was trying to replicate the experience, so yes, it's bleak, and horrific, and tedious and frightening and yes, it's hard to watch, but that's exactly the point. He's big on the idea that individualism (and by extension what he calls "oh dearism")means that if people aren't entertained or appealed to directly then they don't give a rat's ass. I came away from the full 7 hours humbled and with more sympathy for the people who went through (and are still going through) this horror. I don't feel better about myself but that's not what I watched it for. Not trying to change your mind, just trying to answer your question :-)

[@imbritish]

You used the perfect interview format for Adam Curtis

[@internetbynight4255]

"politics is never really about reality, what politics is about is telling you a story that makes sense of the reality you are living through it at the moment it may be in a way a strange fantasy but is sort of makes sense of what you're living through it at the moment. The story they are telling us at the moment do not makes sense of reality, what they actually do is they make it weirder and worser" gonna sample this line

[@Sankara-Setu-Mutanda-75]

Yes! I love Adam Curtis and his thoroughness. Makes life worth living. Thank you

[@ozmer]

Fantastic interview! Adam Curtis is incredibly insightful on societal wide problems. One quibble is that the city video footage is too interesting and I found myself repeatedly having to go back because I wasn't paying attention to the audio.

[@robertsolem9234]

Lol, that's like me actually watching Curtis' films -- I'm either watching the footage or I'm listening to the narrative T_T.

[@dietmarspriesterbach6]

One of the best reports I have heard for a long time. I also found a possible explanation for so many East Germans suddenly liking there old system!

[@aluisious]

East Germans liking the old system is pretty simple. 1) No unemployment 2) No homelessness 3) Free education 4) Affordable health care Happiness is mostly about reducing misery, not this fairy tale of "you too could be rich and powerful and good looking!"

[@themsmloveswar3985]

The East Germans told me that the police ran the DDR but the propaganda media ran the West. Being bullied produced a backlash. Pervasive lying is far more effective in preventing it, due to psychological damage.

[@oliverlaw02]

Russia got potentially inexhaustible oil, gas, mineral resources and is self-sufficient in agriculture produce and Britain has what? There's no comparison.

[@chadimirputin2282]

Britain has an abundance of plebs.

[@joshuacampbell1625]

And yet despite that, the living standards of Russians have been less then Britons throughout modern history. Also we're not in the middle ages anymore, and the world economy is based on alot more then just food and natural resources.

[@person.X.]

A small island that has been rich and stable for generations vs a continental sized country with all its advantages that has as its main claim to fame the ability to relentlessly over centuries treat its own people like shit and ruin their lives. Never has a nation squandered its potential like Russia has.

[@awordabout...3061]

Russia has the classic resource problem - she has relied on extraction for so long that the Russian industrial sector now can do almost nothing else. We've seen that as foreign firms have pulled out, they're unable even to produce railway bearings to keep their rail stock rolling, and they're burning huge amounts of gas because the complex tasks of managing and operating gas extraction simply isn't in their wheelhouse. Britain, putting aside the North Sea Oil, doesn't have much in the way of commercially viable natural resources since we've decided not to mine (which makes sense if mined metal from elsewhere is much cheaper) and yet is a very wealthy country, even if it is very unevenly distributed.

[@themsmloveswar3985]

Britain has Peppa pig world according to Boris Johnson.

[@blairhakamies4132]

Adam Curtis is TOP WORLD REFERENCE. He deserves ALREADY the Nobel Prize related with so much he made in terms of literature. 🏆

[@miyojewoltsnasonth2159]

*From Wikipedia:* "In a departure from his usual style, Curtis opted not to use voiceovers or non-diegetic music. Curtis, in a piece in The Guardian, explained this choice was because the footage was 'so strong that I didn’t want to intrude pointlessly, but rather let viewers simply experience what was happening'." I was bored to tears. Am I the only one who *absolutely loves* Adam Curtis but *didn't give a rat's ass* about _TraumaZone?_ *What exactly does everybody actually like about **_TraumaZone?_*

[@blairhakamies4132]

@@miyojewoltsnasonth2159 each person understand it in different ways. Keep on being a source of inspiration for a better world. 🌹

[@BigBoiiLeem]

That very cogent bit about seven minutes in about Britain coming to the end of something really stuck with me, his depth of knowledge about that time period is incredible

[@martycrow]

Adam Curtis is one of the most important post-Cold War interpreters of where we are and why we are here, I urge everyone to explore his works. The catalogue is substantial but even if you limit it to the last 20 years or so, the 21st Century, it will be rewarding beyond your expectations - if you keep an open mind. Curtis has had a similar effect on me as Zinoviev's Yawning Heights (1980) which was an absurdist critique of Soviet Communism. Curtis is unbound by ideologies of orthodox Left or Right. He observes, unmasks and interrogates. And points to our complicity in the bullshit.

[@nightw4tchman]

He's a breath of fresh air is Adam Curtis. Great to hear from him again on an up to date issue.

[@futurenow2037]

The way is open... Adam Curtis documentaries over the decades are an essential archive of alternate and contrasting perspectives that demonstrate why we are where we are today. After listening to this intriguing discussion I propose however, that some people do have alternative ideas to the dying system we see before us. One new, very small, contributor of which is within this new novel, The Future Now, many themes and issues chime with the topics raised here, and in other films by Adam Curtis. It is available on PreOrder now and in paperback from 5th dec and the backdrop is indeed the UK of 2050 during its next incarnation, after a drastic systematic shift brought on by social upheaval, Adam and anyone watching may find the system design interesting perhaps even the plot and personal journey of the main character.... thanks Politics Joe and Adam Curtis 👍✊

[@bigburd875]

Adam Curtis is one of the most insightful filmmakers I've ever hear

[@stephanguitar9778]

I used to work with a Russian who told me that back in the 70s - 90s, everyone had a job, could see the doctor, have somewhere to live but just got by. By the year 2000 he said , either you have black money or no money. I see this happening in the UKs rentier economy given another innings of the Tories.

[@earthman6700]

I've asked a number of older Eastern Europeans what is different from the old Soviet days to now. I've always had the response, 'Everyone had a job and a roof over their heads'. It was something of some importance to all of them. What I see in the US and the UK does not show us as particularly advanced, despite the wealth of the Countries.

[@srpacific]

I don’t think this is a uniquely tory problem. You’ll find that the same system exists no matter what party is in power - this is exactly what Curtis is saying in this interview

[@StoutProper]

Loads of Brits have got black money. They wouldn’t be any to get by otherwise.

[@daniles]

Yes, everybody in USSR had a place to live but you had to stand in line for an apartment for decades. Because you couldn't buy an apartment. It was forbidden. Yes, everybody had a job but it was really little paid. There was a phrase "You pretend to pay us, we pretend to work". You could see a doctor but the treatment prescribed was often awful and with no competence. Most of the people in USSR had black money or just stole something at work to sell it or to use it at home. And the most important thing that inherited from soviet times is that many people still want the state to give everything to them. And of course, no politics at all, like in soviet times. It's the state that is in politics. That's why Putin still has the power over them. He's their Big Brother. I lived both in USSR's 80s and Russia's 90s and 2000s.

[@GreenTeaViewer]

Wake up. It's not about the Tories or the other party. This is the end game of the financial system post-ww2 collapsing throughout the West. There is nothing left for the 1% to plunder.

[@jamesstockwin2802]

Most brilliant discourse I’ve listened to for quite some time, thank you for uploading 😊

[@thomaschad18]

who on the left is welcoming the return to austerity?

[@geoffreynolds8835]

Exactly. I didn't want Brexit or the Tory system of downgrading "Ordinary people" and feeding the super rich.

[@your-mom-irl]

Stürmer

[@saaversteen]

i didn't hear a single person cheering on austerity 2.0 imposed by the moneyed. what i did hear is some relief that their pensions haven't quite been flushed down the shitter yet by the moneyed.

[@maxgrieve]

Yeah, 'the left' is doing a LOT of heavy lifting here. Have to assume it's shorthand for 'Labour'. If anything, I think the left would be inclined to point out Corbyn's Labour were proposing changes to the economic orthodoxy, which Starmer/Reeves have since backed away from. I like Curtis, but any proposal that 'the left' might welcome austerity or be complicit in mapping the straight road from post-2010 Osbornomics to current crises - with no lessons learned or alternatives offered - is for the birds.

[@TheSeanj87]

Yeah I don’t know what Curtis on about how. What does he think the Left is

[@gwcstudio]

Curtis seems behind the scenes and, when he tries to explain it, it feels like he has pulled aside the mirror and revealed all the broken gears that make the world work. He clarifies things while linking them together, which makes everything seem bigger and more complicated.

[@Cillixn]

The video of driving on the snowy road at the beginning, is that part of Traumazone, or is it from something separate?

[@Google_Does_Evil_Now]

Has he got an aversion to calling out corruption? Osborne created the exit of 2nd home landlords, often couples who each had their own flat but moved in together and rented the other one out. Or parents died and left it to their kids, who rented it out. And those who followed the BBC morning TV show, on every morning for a decade or more, encouraging everybody to go to auctions buy houses, do them up and rent them or sell them. Osborne change the rules to encourage foreign investors to buy thousands of British homes and to make it difficult for small people to continue renting out a second home. This has led to an extreme shortage of property to rent in London. Increased unaffordability. Increased overcrowding. This was a deliberate plan by Osborne. At the same time there's been a huge number of high-rise apartment blocks being built asking for high rents. Can you see how these align with each other? And we have massive investors buying up ordinary British housing as long term lets to require higher rents. Can you see how these are aligning nicely for the rich? It's simple maths. We can see the plan. Please call it out. Liz Truss, ex-Shell executive, and Kwasi Kwarteng, banker, deliberately stated policies in order to cause huge pressure on the pound and force the Bank of England to raise interest rates. When the bank didn't raise them enough he piled even more pressure on. The interest rate rises will help to make two million people homeless. These people will be evicted from their homes and forced to rent at high rents. These two million homes will come into the market at a time and ordinary people will not be able to get mortgages to buy them. So they will be brought up by rich investors and then rented out to people who can no longer afford to buy. The "everyone renting, everyone paying us half of their money every month" plan is blatant. Please call it out. Other countries put measures in place to stop this. They have rent controls. I have limits on the number of properties investors can buy. They help ordinary people to build or buy their own homes at COST price. "Rent To Own" Scheme Ireland will build homes for families and charge them rent. When the family has paid back the cost of the building through rent then the home is given to them. This helps to control the private market, putting them off exploding people. The complete opposite to the UK.

[@mattylamb9194]

Didn't Ireland have massively increasing house prices in the noughties? Even higher than in the UK? (and that's saying something)

[@MrCalls1]

In many way a great interview and an insightful man. But. He completely merges the ‘liberals’ and ‘the left’ both exist within labour, and the liberal wing is certainly ascendant at present, but I 100% agree it doesnt have a clear idea on what a future more functional system would look like. However no matter how incomplete some may say I would argue the left certainly has a great many snapshots of what the next system could be that generates an era of stability and growth. National ownership of some utilities and trains. Cooperative ownership of other utilities and essential services. The removal of private provision within public services - NHS. Direct state investment in industry while taking a share in the profits. A national investment bank. Universal basic services. Base Food and job guarantees and maybe even a universal basic income. Political reform towards PR and ranked choice voting, and devolution of powers to the nations of the UK and the regions of England. There are ideas. However just as in the Soviet Union they are smothered because they uproot present power holders.

[@hectorox749]

Please run for office. I'd vote for you!

[@gordonhenderson1965]

@@hectorox749 Are you saying we need a Gorbachev? I've yet to see how voting in someone you agree with is changing anything much. You only have to look at the voting results of the last decade where seemingly unelectable people are consistently getting half the voting results.

[@StoutProper]

Radical ideas like this inevitably involve shifting power away from the the present establishment. Power is only ever taken and never given, and usually via the barrel of a gun.

[@gordonhenderson1965]

In case you haven’t noticed, the liberals and their supposed lack of progressive ideas, such as you interpret this, is not even remotely on the same planet as the issues Adam Curtis is bringing up. I’m not gonna waste my breath here though

[@theredraven]

" the next system could be that generates an era of stability and growth. National ownership of some utilities and trains." Why does the government playing trainsets make for stability or growth though? Plenty of poor dysfunctional countries have had state owned railways just as much as rich stable ones have.

[@Ford-Prefect]

It's always great to hear Adam Curtis talk about collectivism and individualism. You did an amazing job expanding the conversation. Top marks.

[@dfgdfg_]

21:50 "It's also possibly true that the reason you feel bad is because you live in a shitty society."

[@terryhand]

Trauma Zone was outstanding. This was by far one of the best interviews I have seen on this channel. Adam Curtis is raising issues here that most commentators are far too entrenched in their positions on either the left or the right to even see. I do wish I could be as optimistic on China and Iran, but perhaps time will prove me wrong.

[@adamsharpe9452]

Amazing interview. Few people are as captivating as Adam Curtis.

[@trevfindley]

Best interview I've listened to in a long while. Well done to all involved. Love AC's films, can't wait to watch the latest series.

[@dorsetengineering]

It’s brilliant, isn’t it…. Have you watched Bitter Lake?

[@tybes99]

What a fantastic video and incredible commentary from Adam Curtis on so many culturally relevant topics. His understanding for the modern world and the old world is exactly what's needed in politics to push this country forward

[@youarehere.]

13:29 the claim that Gorbachev said “ok we’ll have computers, and that will rescue communism” is the most reductive assessment of Gorbachev ever committed to the public domain. Curtis speaks with an all-knowing and definitive authority about extremely contentious matters. Curtis’s interpretation of people and events are presented as uncomplicated fact. Curtis places himself outside and above the journalistic practice he describes when in fact he is a practitioner of that very practice.

[@FreemonSandlewould]

He walks right up to the subject then misses it entirely. That's Adam Curtis for you.

[@geoffmilner]

​@@hamc9477He's got no solutions.

[@geoffmilner]

@@hamc9477 Certainly not if you are making programmes about a subject. Russell Brand has the same pointless style, criticising while alluding to some kind of utopia that should be achievable, but never explaining what it is or how to get there. Curtis just rambles on about the public and elites being confused that there isn't an overarching plan, but there should be one. He said in Bitter Lake that Afghanistan was at the centre of the world and yet he never mentioned it. Clearly he's nowhere on domestic or international geo politics. All he's got is remaining in the EU and climate change as his guiding principles No different to David Attenborough.

[@geoffmilner]

@@hamc9477 I agree, so many of these think tanks, institutions, NGOs, charities etc are appointed and operate in the background without oversight that we never even see their influence on decisions that are being made. They are parasitic in nature, all surviving on taxpayers money, or even worse, money from industry and other foundations, who want special favours. The regulatory capture of the MHRA is a prime example as it is 80% funded by the pharmaceutical industry by way of the Gates foundation. The govt then funds the dangerous poisons ad infinitum. Mainstream Curtis would never get into the root causes of a problem like that unless he upsets the BBC commissions he's been dining out on for decades. The BBC and media are an essential part of how the corruption is carried out by keeping the public controlled and onboard with all of the false narratives.

[@2x94Z]

@@geoffmilner you know Marx, Kropotkin, Bakunin, Bookchin etc didn't have concrete plans either? It's not like do this, this and this, and tada, proletarian revolution. And it's not up to them or documentary directors to make them, it's the people involved.

[@ethan5719]

Some amazingly interesting topics raised; I have for a long time believed that change in the modern day needs not just a societal or cultural change, but a change to human nature and the way we have been raised in this society in whole.

[@craigmorrow2939]

Another brilliant interview by a brilliant filmmaker. I'm so glad he's spoken about his documentary because I missed hearing his own words in the actual film itself

[@sprkraida]

Throughout TrauZone I coud hear his narration, born in my mind, but oh so real. His voice is very peculiar. I love it

[@craigmorrow2939]

@@sprkraida "What Yeltsin failed to realise...."

[@ItsMeBenson]

Curtis is a marvellous journalist and this was a fascinating interview

[@davidguiney1746]

His comment at the end about how liberals didn't approach Brexiteers and Trumpsters is so on the spot. Even before those things happened you had Clinton and her deplorables comment. No attempt of dialog, just finger pointing

[@benqurayza7872]

Good point. I see that here in the US. My fellow liberals don't want to understand how their revolutionary cultural nostrums threaten working class people. Yet, in the meantime, conservative plutocrats are busy undermining our social insurance systems.

[@attheprecipice1090]

It's not just Britain, the "collective west" is heading for a Soviet style collapse. Dmitry Orlov analysed these similarities in his 2008 book "Reinventing collapse - Soviet example, American prospects"

[@mickyfrazer786]

It's not that they don't have an alternative it is that they don't want to impose something fairer as they fear they will lose out on power or wealth or both

[@MrCalls1]

Ok. Towards the end of the interview I’m becoming rather annoyed. There are and we’re people that talked to trump voters and brexit voters. Both Jeremy Corbyn in the uk and Bernie Samders in America campaigned in the deindustrialised north England , and Midwest America. They pulled in huge amounts of people in the 2017 election and the primaries. But they were ultimately outvoted within the party by the establishment that was understandably scared of the party and parry structure changing.

[@oneoflokis]

👍💯

[@MrSmoore77]

Yep me too he's got some interesting things to say but he skims over alot of stuff or outright dismisses it based solely on his opinion.. the idea we all created this individualistic society together is way off the mark .

[@gordonhenderson1965]

@@MrSmoore77 I think his point is not that we created it but we allowed it to be created, and that is exactly what we are doing, allowing for fantasy issues to dominate our attention while men behind the curtain put everything into the meat grinder.

[@MrSmoore77]

@@gordonhenderson1965fair point. I'd still disagree though, the move to an individualist mindset has been the result of modern capitalism .the loss of industry and the solidarity that came with shared purpose and the sale of council housing were major factors in the UK , combined with the last 40 years of political and economic forces all pushing in that direction . I suppose in terms of the middle class upwards he's more accurate, the same applies to him stating that we are all now in a scary place and it's not fun anymore , for millions of us it's been like that for decades of poverty precarious housing and employment etc . The statement that no-one had any better ideas is also oddly daft considering that Corbyn was offering a vastly different policy program to the mainstream for a few years very recently . I agree with alot of his points but his idea that we are all collectively drifting as a society rather than being directed by very powerful interests is strange

[@gordonhenderson1965]

@@MrSmoore77 all valid points. I’m Canadian middle class and was telling someone that the thing we’ve been missing in our psyche is the preservation fear that many have had front and center their whole life. We’re practically in utopia for all things considered against the benchmarks through the world. So when we discuss the drifting versus directed, there’s no doubt the direction is the real problem because the drifting is pretty much just the inability of the common citizen to really do anything about it.

[@andymcdonald8922]

That was really enjoyable. Never really heard of adam curtis, but seems to have a pretty decent analysis of the current situation we find ourselves in and a hopeful glimpse into the future

[@garysantana7906]

if you dont know his work, you should 100% check out his past documentaries, i would start with 'century of the self'

[@geroffmilan3328]

@@garysantana7906 century of the self is an amazing work imho - must-watch.

[@the1andonlytitch]

I will also point you towards Hypernormalisation which goes through a lot of what he is saying today

[@StoutProper]

You’ve just opened up a rabbit hole for yourself, prepare to be amazed

[@AreMullets4AustraliansOnly]

Pinning Trussanomics on Liz Truss is one major reason why the tide isn’t turning. Liz Truss didn’t do anything more than fulfil the expressed wishes of the people who put her in power, the UK oligarchy. The system is the problem, not an individual. They created her, from the beginning of her political interest, they elected her, she did their bidding, and we all saw in clear terms what that caused, and NO ONE in politics or media seemed to say “well it’s obvious that wealthy people do exactly the opposite to what the British public need, they preserve their own interest”, instead a term was coined and Liz Truss was ousted, end of story. Fucking bizarre, and we all know why it’s happened. Hegemony.

[@jeancampbell4341]

South African, Michael Tellinger, is a scientist, explorer an author. He is the founder of the UBUNTU Liberation movement and has developed the 'One Small Town' concept. It is worth exploring.

[@Esther-Pesta]

Adam Curtis is such an important historian. Thanks for this great interview 🙏🏻

[@cerdic6305]

He’s not a historian, he’s a filmmaker

[@marmadukesandwich]

He's no historian. His films sound and look good but they have no weight to them. It's all extremely shallow and it shouldn't be taken for truth or real history. At least he's never claimed as such, he calls himself a story-teller.

[@bobrobertson9547]

👏. Brilliant. Sums up exactly how people really feel. I want a full political reform. I want a flattening down, not a levelling up.

[@joannewalker4232]

Bloody wonderful, I watched his 7 part series Traumazone on Russia yesterday. So glad I listened to this, he just manages to tap into the zeitgeist and get to the marrow of what is happening and I'm so thankful for his optimism at the end, I feel it too, all is not lost. ❤

[@harrywilliams439]

What an absolute masterpiece. I enjoyed every second of that. I will share with video with all my friends and family. People just need to widen their views and understand the danger we are in right now

[@sbaumgartner9848]

Adam Curtis is an amazing journalist and filmmaker. I didn't realize he also produced The Century of the Self series. Thank you Adam! And thank you PoliticsJoe for this video.

[@piccalillipit9211]

*I LIVE IN BULGARIA NOW* we dont have individualism here - no one is told they are "special" or "unique" - your value is your worth to the society you live in... Its a MUCH nicer way to live. Your neighbour's health and wellbeing is YOUR responsibility, the neighbourhood kids are YOUR responsibility. And when you are too ill to walk your dog your neighbour will do it 4 times a day without a seconds thought

[@marionreynolds7080]

Confucius said to his emperor - ‘if you want to remain in charge you have to spread the goodies around’.

[@StoutProper]

The impression I get of the elites are grabbing as much as they can now because they know there’s a big economic crash coming

[@ruthmccabe3527]

Yep - they forgot the panem, and have just left us with the circenses. And what a right old bloody circus it is...

[@marcus_electric]

I need to rewatch Can't Get You Out Of My Head too.. amazing filmmaking

[@50_Pence]

The reality is that I'm paying double for something because of the incompetent people in government and the richest are getting richer because of it

[@spenjames1861]

The greatest socio-political Documentary maker... full stop! Traumazone has completely changed my view of modern Russia. Well done to all involved.👍👍👍

[@robpallot5058]

"Being in the woods with friends = exciting Being alone in the woods = scary"

[@CallousCarter]

I read the book Red Plenty which gives a semi-fictional but well researched account of what went wrong with the Soviet Planning model over the decades and the way the party apparatchiks behave in that reminds me so much of how the average PMC public sector person behaves in the UK.

[@ac4486]

Paraphrasing him - "No-one here, not the government or the opposition has any idea about what other system would work" The opposition DID have some good analysis and solutions but they got cancelled by centrists and conservatives.

[@ac4486]

But then correctly goes on to talk about in the current incarnation Labour offering NOTHING. They'll win, simply because they're not the other lot, not because they have anything about them. As far as the Labour Party is concerned, 2017 should be the starting point if it is in the business of making the world a better place. But shhhh we dont speak of 2017 - it never happened!

[@joshuacampbell1625]

Just to be clear, nationalising everything is not how you solve every problem in modern Britain. There are industries that should absolutely be state owned, and then there are industries that need to be competitive to be viable

[@ac4486]

@@joshuacampbell1625 impossible to tell if you agreeing or disagreeing with my point

[@joshuacampbell1625]

@@ac4486 my point is that those in labour who are more centrist might not embrace certain solution because they in fact cause more long term problems. For example Corbyn was often calling to nationalise or subsidise alot of industries, especially in the run up to the 2019 election. While some, like transportation, arguably should be nationalised, the nationalisation of other industries has the potential to impact the long term competitiveness of the national economy. Basically, don't confuse pragmatism for centrism. Certain solutions are practical, even if they work on paper

[@oneoflokis]

👍👍💯

[@jackduxbury1632]

Primo “Content” - Thank you Joe 🙏

[@GloriousSonOfYork]

why "content" in quotation marks?

[@JDMPhil87]

Adam is right to the extent that “the genie can’t be put back into the box” but only to the extent it’s a recognition that modern individualism is hedonistic and ideological. If you can reeducate people to understand the true nature of social reality, and what it means to be human in a political society you can fix politics. People just need to stop being afraid of C.

[@InnuendoXP]

Sadly, as long as there's money to be made, I think the combined business & media landscapes will prevent any sufficiently aligned movement of counter-perception to coalesce & the best you'll be able to do is some occasional fringe commune.

[@WinstonSmith22]

I've watched Adam Curtis's films for over twenty years, and I have to say that I'm astonished by his conclusions here? To believe that introspection prevents collective action is an inverted perception in my experience. He mentions the current preoccupation with personal trauma as though it has been manufactured by some external source. It hasn't. Both as individuals and as a society we are reaping the results of war industrial disintegration and splintered values. The very real trauma of the second world war and its effect on the population is still being uncovered. We only recognised PTSD as a real reaction to the horror of war in the late seventies, and early eighties. Before that point soldiers were called cowards and many of them were shot for desertion. That cruel and insane treatment was normalised throughout our society. We treated children who grew up in poverty and violence as though they had bad characters when they showed distress. Our world has been insane, for a very long time. That kind of brutalisation in childhood causes real dissociation and anger even criminal behaviour. But this is a normal human response to inhuman treatment. We are not going to fix this history of poor attachment, cruelty and trauma overnight, but trying to help those who have been injured profoundly by it, will not only build a movement of real justice and a desire for vital access to opportunity and meaning, in my experience it is the only thing that can.

[@colinsavill3459]

Have to say I thought Traumazone suffered by not having Curtis voiceover.

[@Strykehjerne]

Wonderfully pertinent and thought provoking.. and very accurate regarding what the UK looks like from abroad, to someone who used to feel at home in a way, there..

[@marionreynolds7080]

Why doesn’t Adam refer at all to the amount of American interference in Russia during the Yeltsin years or indeed the American coup of 2014 in Ukraine. Has Russia intervene in the West to any significant extent. I think not.

[@acolli777]

Umm Brexit?!

[@CunningOfReason]

BBC. He is an agent for the rich.

[@roywilkinson2078]

The phrase "Putin invaded Ukraine" pumped out by the Western MSM and repeated in this interview is blatantly misleading and your comment points to what that phrase misses out, which is everything that happened leading up to the point where the Russian Federation invaded Ukraine. A few highlights that you're probably aware of being; NATO expansion eastwards, the rejection of all Russian attempts to join NATO and the EU, the nurturing of Ukrainian neo-nazi political and para-military forces, the Maidan Coup orchestrated by Victoria Nuland, the deliberate undermining of Minsk 1 and 2, the wilful blindness to the deliberate killing of majority ethnically Russian Donbass civilians by the Ukrainian military for 8 years, the constant warnings from the Russian Federation that Ukraine as a NATO member with nuclear missile sites was completely unacceptable, the Donbass people declaring themselves as independent republics that directly asked for military help from the Russian Federation... I could go on listing more details, but the point is the current western MSM and political class never mention anything that I have outlined. They just say "... and then, for no reason at all, Evil Putin decided it was time to kill as many Ukrainians as possible."

[@jimweights8908]

It’s a pleasure to listen to adam Curtis. A true philosopher

[@slartybartfast1]

Fantastic talk with Adam, Adam's perception of the modern world is a gift to us all.

[@claudew7763]

Man this channel is so good...!

[@BlackTearDrop]

I recommend anyone who liked the ideas explored in this about systems and how no one can imagine anything next read up on Mark Fisher (K-Punk) and his writing on Hauntology and Capitalist Realism. He sadly passed away but I feel like now, more than ever, those concepts need to be brought up and discussed.

[@robertsolem9234]

@@fvefve12 You won't regret it -- Mark Fisher was brilliant. Fisher's Capitalist Realism should be considered a companion piece to this interview.

[@matthewcoombs3282]

I highly recommend Mark Fisher's work "K- Punk" and "Capitalist Realism". He completely outlines our current cultural cul-de-sac so well.

[@gungiginga6969]

6:15 this reminds me of the concept of the loss of revolutionary imagination in Capitalist Realism. The idea of capitalism as the only allowed and functional system has made it impossible for most people to imagine an actually different society, most people have forgotten that societies can exist beyond capital, government and private property

[@lau_dhondt]

Fantastic interview. Much love for Adam Curtis

[@colinmcnamara344]

This was fascinating, I was waiting for them to mention Fukayama or Mark Fishers work, as it felt very applicable

[@StuMas]

12:41 Adam's stories are far more political and contrived than any politician's yarn. However, unlike Adam, politicians dutifully declare their biases and don't pretend to be neutral.