The History of Cursor Keys

[@rafaelrafaelrafael]

You missed the ADM-3A, which is the reason why vi(m) uses hjkl as cursor keys. That was so influential that many modern software still supports those (from memory: Gmail is a good example, where you can use j/k to go up and down your emails)

[@travcollier]

yep. Vi was 1976 IIRC I do prefer an inverted-T set of keys though.

[@thezipcreator]

I always wondered why vim supported those as cursor keys. TIL

[@travcollier]

Oh, FWIW, the trs80-102 cursor key layout actually matches vi (left,down,up,right)... Which is one of the most sensible one row ways of doing it IMO... Swapping down and up is arguably slightly more sensible, but close enough

[@thumbwarriordx]

There's something to be said about the basement wizard's deadlocked home row hotkey setups from those apps. The programmer ethos is very different from say a desktop artist's idea of how hotkeys should work. It's the difference between working all over your desk and locking your hands to the home row hell or high water.

[@Gravarty]

Also works on KZbin to jump forwards and backwards! But i always use the arrow keys, Up/Down also changes the volume.

[@hivetyrant7]

There's a fantastic book called "Shift Happens" that I highly recommend that goes into the history of the earliest typewriters to modern keyboards, it's fascinating even for people that don't care about keyboards.

[@busterbunny005]

"Shift Happens" omg that's hilarious

[@tjeerdtrekkie1030]

"its facinating even for people who don't care about keyboards". Kind of a dumb statement. Because nobody would even pick up a book about something they don't care about in the first place...

[@interruptingPreempt]

Oh, I saw that on kickstarter a couple months ago! I just checked back, and it's nice to see it hit 5x its goal. =)

[@hivetyrant7]

@@tjeerdtrekkie1030 Hence my comment telling people they might enjoy it or recommend it to people that wouldn't pick it up.

[@keyserxx]

Sold!

[@cooperschwartz318]

I feel like David can talk for 30 minutes about why all toothbrushes aren’t blue and I’d still watch the whole thing

[@gerald8573]

Seriously though: WHY aren't they???

[@compukiller2]

Don't forget Alec from Technology Connections. It's the same with him.

[@frankiecube-xo4mi]

😁

[@secretjazz93]

TRUTH!! He has a nice voice and very high production value, along with a real talent in documentary video making. I keep coming back to his older vids cuz they relax my mind and I also watch every new video too, of course 🎉 I remember I found it years ago because I wanted to know how to make 8-bit music and how 8-bit sound worked, the channel had a different name back then

[@SandyGarnelle]

... Most of them are, wdym :0

[@gormster]

What I love about the straight 4 bit is, there’s only twelve possible arrangements of those keys, and they managed to use *seven.* (There’s actually 24 but half of them have left and right the wrong way around.) The only ones missing are the interleaved ones (LURD, LDRU, ULRD and DLRU) and LUDR.

[@jeff__w]

Seems like they were operating with the implicit constraints of having the L and the R on the, well, left and right of each other, as you mentioned, and keeping the U and D paired together. So they really managed to miss "only" the LUDR. That’s a bit surprising because the L and U move the cursor back through the document while the D and R move it forward, so those keys might be paired “naturally” but I guess not.

[@I..cast..fireball]

LDRU is best straight 4

[@jonadabtheunsightly]

@@I..cast..fireball The most common straight-4 movement convention these days is hjkl, which is left-down-up-right (on a QWERTY keyboard; heaven help you if you play roguelike games on Dvorak). Although, except for vi and derivatives thereof, most of the software that uses hjkl for orthogonal movement also uses yubn for the diagonals, and at that point it's not a straight line any more.

[@glassvial]

You forgot to include the super rare TURD layout, it really didn't catch on, the layout stinks.

[@jonadabtheunsightly]

@@glassvial Top, Up, Right, Down?

[@pastarhythm2762]

12:13 Many traditional dungeon-crawler roguelikes also let you use eight-way keys to move around. Since these games are turn-based, moving diagonally is very important, and you'll do it all the time. It's cool to see that a lot of other classic games used that configuration as well!

[@stm7810]

why not juat 2 keys at once? I'm arthritic and find that easier. did people just not think about design? games could clearly handle 2 or more buttons at once.

[@Keelyn1984]

Many of the old dungeon crawlers were developed for arcade machines with an 8-direction arcade stick in mind. Back in the 80s and early 90s thats what the dev were used to think about.

[@stm7810]

@@Keelyn1984 at least it's not as bad as the first 3D controls like System shock or Deus Ex where you used look keys rather than the mouse.

[@Keelyn1984]

@@stm7810 Pretty sure Deus Ex used standard keyboard mouse controls since it was an Unreal Engine game. Or at least be capable of doing so. The worst games were the ones were you had to press Page Up and Page Down to look upwarts / downwarts. This felt so horrible...

[@stm7810]

@@Keelyn1984 When playing the original 2000 game I remember confusing controls.

[@lonelyshrimpart]

These types of niche topics are my absolute favourite bits of history, and I think that's part of what draws me to classic computers and computer history. Just so much of so many companies throwing whatever they could think of at the wall to see what stuck. It's so cool to dig into the hows and whys of little things we just accept as commonplace nowadays

[@daniel_kos]

IBM also made a ridiculously large 122 key layout with the Home key in the middle of the arrow keys, and *twenty four* function keys at the top of the keyboard instead of the usual 12. My local library had this layout on their public catalogue terminals and it was awesome! With all those keys it felt like being in control of something really important.

[@admirerofclassicalelectron2858]

It was used by the 5250 Twinax terminals for the AS/400 and later IBM i - strange but powerful machines. The user interface, the green screen, is based on function keys and their use is standardized (F1 help, F3 back, F12 cancel, ...). So 24 function keys are quite usable.

[@ShaunDreclin]

Interestingly enough windows still supports F13-F24, if you can find a keyboard with those buttons

[@moje12a]

​@@ShaunDreclin SHIFT+F1 --> F13 SHIFT+F2 --> F14 ... SHIFT+F12 --> F24

[@daniel_kos]

​@@ShaunDreclin Then that opens up a mystery, because I don't think IBM terminal keyboards could EVER physically be plugged into PCs. I once got my hands on a free IBM model M keyboard and thought I'd hit the jackpot... but although it had a DIN plug that seemingly looked like it could plug into an IBM PC, the pins were spaced out very differently to prevent this. Then I found that Unicomp sells a reproduction model of the IBM 122 key keyboard with a USB interface; so I bought one. But the exotic keys on the Unicomp don't generate unique keycodes either! Disappointingly, they've hard-coded all the "cool" keys more like macros to simulate other key combinations that would work with some obscure legacy Windows terminal emulation software. So instead of getting a unique keycode when you press F13, your PC just receives "Shift+F1" and so on.

[@11FHS11]

I actually use one of those keyboards on my PC under Windows 10, works just fine. The bigger issue is the ESC key rather than the arrow keys, and actually I kinda like the placement of the home key as a programmer.

[@soviut303]

I'm surprised you didn't mention the HJKL (left, down, up, right) configuration that VIM uses since it was a popular cursor configuration for remote terminals (that didn't have arrow keys). they actually gets a lot of use outside of VIM today as hotkeys for next/previous in a lot of web apps (gmail if you enable shortcuts, Trello, etc.) since the arrow keys are already being used for browser scrolling.

[@heto795]

Coincidentally or not, this same order is used for the on-screen arrows in dance games with four directions. The physical pads have a diamond configuration, of course.

[@soviut303]

@@chocolatezt That sounds incredibly tedious, hehe.

[@Aeduo]

@@chocolatezt It's nice having both available. In insert mode you don't always want to have to leave and reenter insert mode just to move the cursor.

[@soviut303]

@@chocolatezt Your entire setup. How many keyboard forums are you on? ;)

[@soviut303]

@@chocolatezt I'm not just talking about the layers; I'm talking about a split keyboard that then requires another workaround for cursor keys, that then requires another workaround for that. I'm a software developer and can confidently say that if you're typing to the point that it becomes uncomfortable, you're typing too much (emacs and vim are not badges of honour).

[@misophoniq]

I grew up using a C64 for years! I have to admit that I didn't have any problems with their weird cursor-key system at all. And even when I come across an 8-bit Commodore today, I still am able to navigate using the cursor keys like if I was using a Commodore yesterday. I guess muscle-memory goes a long way if you have been using weird systems for long enough.

[@zipzett]

my thumb up, I have same feeling of my cord memory by playing musical instruments. Not everything works by brain memory only.

[@steve-marsh]

I can’t believe I’m watching a video about cursor keys for 20 odd minutes, but I am and I love it 🤷🏼‍♂️

[@tylerroberts1276]

Being born after the IBM model M keyboard meant that I only knew the Inverted T cursor keys. It wasn't until I discovered this channel and classic computers, did I finally see keys that aren't the standard arraingment. Hearing about where they became the norm, and where PC cursor keys were like prior to to keyboards like DEC's LK201 personally is a very fascinating video in my opinion. Thanks for the history lesson!

[@toomanyinterests]

Some newer keyboards have a different cursor key arrangement, we have a Microsoft "Natural Keyboard Elite" ergonomic keyboard that has the cursor keys in the diamond arrangement. For a time it was connected to our PC. I thought it was really cool until I wanted to play a maze game from a CD-Rom. With the diamond arrangement, as well as the steep angle of the keys, I couldn't find or press the keys without looking at them. We switched back to the normal keyboard.

[@sjoerdvanbavel6043]

Fun fact: there are 24 ways to arrange four keys on a single row. 12, if you are going to keep left on the left and right on the right. Finding examples of 7 out of the 12 possible ways is impressive.

[@nutbastard]

Technically there are only 24 ways of arranging them in any given geometry, not just a single row.

[@FTfilm]

Isnt it two? If i always have left on the left and right on the right i can only alterate up and down in the middle of them? Do i miss something here? EDIT: ah now i get it. keeping them together, not as fixed part of the layout but fixed pair, sry, you are right then.

[@JMcMillen]

While that may be true (4!=24), for practical purposes the left arrow key will always be left of the right arrow key. That only leaves 12 possible ways to arrange the keys.

[@jek__]

There are 19 ways to arrange 4 contiguous keys, with 24 arrangements each thats 456 different ways you could design arrow keys

[@kperry5000]

←→↑↓ ←→↓↑ ↑↓←→ ↓↑←→ ↑←→↓ ↓←→↑ ←↑↓→ ←↓↑→ ↑←↓→ ↓←↑→ ←↑→↓ ←↓→↑

[@tufif]

I spent a lot of years with the IBM numlock style cursor keys, and I always used my thumb for down instead of my middle finger which would stay on the up key. Even now, I still find myself continuing this habit on the inverted T keys, and even when playing games with WASD if I'm in an area where I don't need to jump I'll find my left thumb moving from the spacebar to the S key for down.

[@tomothywalker]

Yep. My first PC was a Compaq Portable, and I was 4 or 5, so about the only way I could reach all four keys was using 3 fingers and a thumb. As the inverted T arrived, I continued to tuck my thumb up under my fingers in something akin to a pen grip as that's how my brain was wired to hit down (I have "hitchhikers thumbs" so perhaps that made it easier for me?!?). Interestingly though, with the advent of WASD controls, I move my middle finger up and down to move forward/back, with my thumb is permanently hovering over space (I guess from typing induced muscle memory). The funny thing is, I'd never thought about it until watching this video, and assumed everybody just used their thumb to hit down on the "arrow keys".

[@rogink]

Can someone explain why we still have numlock? If you have separate cursor keys why bother to make 8 4 6 2 cursor keys? It's really annoying trying to type numbers only to find the cursor moving around the screen!

[@tufif]

@@rogink I used to work a job where I'd use Remote Desktop to connect to a system running Virtual Machines on it, and trying to keep numlock in synch between everything was a total mess!

[@natbarmore]

3:01 that’s not a horrible arrangement! All 4 keys in a row means you can plant your hand on them with a dedicated finger for each, and fly through any task that requires lots of cursoring! I still have the muscle memory for that and miss it, though I haven’t had a usable keyboard with that arrangement for at least 15 years. (I still have an ADB keyboard that I love in the closet, but haven’t had an ADB computer for a long time, and don’t care badly enough to rig up a connector.)

[@janekschleicher9661]

For vim users, that's still the default (and if your're used to it, even faster than switching for movements to the dedicated cursor keys). But tbh, I wouldn't like to play games with hjkl (for gamses ijkl or wasd makes much more sense).

[@BattleBladeWarrior]

Yea, I could actually see that form taking off quite well if that would have been the standard. Probably a litle easier on your hands posture too

[@crowth9639]

it's dogshit for videogames but i see how it can be useful for text editors

[@klaxoncow]

Another interesting "arrow keys" tid-bit: With DOOM, you use the arrow keys for movement and the mouse for turning and shooting. But most modern games opt for the "WASD" arrangement instead. This actually relates to John Romero - he's left handed. He's a South paw. So, for him, it's actually intuitive to have your right hand on the arrow keys and then the mouse to the left of the keyboard. Being a leftie, that's perfectly natural to him, so he used the arrow keys. But most people are right-handed. And if you're right-handed, this means that your left hand is crossing over the keyboard to reach the arrow keys, while your right-hand uses the mouse to the right of the keyboard. This can actually be a little cramped. So other developers moved to "WASD" as it's more natural - for right-handers, which is the majority - to have their left-hand on WASD - on the left of the keyboard - and the right-hand on the mouse. Your arms are not crossing over in an unnatural position, so it feels nicer. Although, the best games are clever and support "WASD" or arrow keys, to let the player choose, based on their left- or right-handedness. Or, you know, just always include a "configure keys" option in the menu, and let the user sort it out for themselves. p.s. comment edited: It was John Romero, not John Carmack. I recalled incorrectly, but it's changed to be "the right John" now.

[@Hydra360ci]

esdf is still better.... I mean hello... F has an indention on it, the keys are offset, and the pinky buttons are huge, for a reason.

[@fauzirahman3285]

@@Hydra360ci Some keyboards have tactile bump on the S key for gaming

[@krissam7791]

@@Hydra360ci reaching ctrl/shift/caps with your pinky while resting on esdf is awkward as hell though

[@rhysvanderwaerden5518]

All DOS games of the shareware era used arrow keys and Doom did not have modern FPS mouse controls (mouse Y was mapped to move forward/backwards). I don't think Doom needs any special reason to use the standard control scheme. Even quake 1 had mouse look disabled by default and used arrows to control IIRC.

[@CakePrincessCelestia]

I started playing games like Unreal and Half-Life with the cursor keys back then, but quickly switched over to the numpad, shoving my keyboard further to the left. Reason? More keys for stuff and the absolute freedom to place my mouse comfortably. I had some scripted keybinds on the Alphanumerics that resembled the weapons menu of Half-Life and Counter-Strike. Wanted to select the 4-2? Just hit R. 2-1? Hit 2. 3-3? Hit D. But after that I switched over to ESDF, but quickly went WASD instead, because it was easier for me to find that gap on the CANTERLOCK key than it was to find the bump on F quickly. And only then I realized what probably only a very few do know: Ultima fricken Underworld had WASD, well kinda, in Nineteen fricken Ninetytwo, even before Wolfenstein was out! It actually was SZXC with A and D being turn keys without moving forward and W being the faster running motion. And since it didn't have mouse look (but mouse control for the whole movement pattern within the 3D window which works quite well, I only played them that way), you basically played it WAXD mostly if you didn't just use the mouse which was more granular. That game was so well ahead of it's time and to be perfectly fair, if you missed it, it's still worth playing today. But if you really need at least some _filtered_ textures on your polygons and nice effects in fullscreen 3D, you can try Arx Fatalis (in Arx Libertatis engine) instead, it's a similarly great experience.

[@vilmarmoccelin]

The MSX computers had a crazy amount of cursor key styles too. And every one different from the other. My first computer was a Brazilian "Gradiente Expert MSX" and it's style was very good for gaming.

[@jwhite5008]

I feel Gradiente's up and down keys were too big, but on a lot of other MSX like the one I had they were slimmer with the same basic arrangement which was very useful both for games, menus and editing.

[@Unregistered.HyperCam.2]

I was actually hoping he'd bring up MSX computers, but this video would probably be twice as long in that case. You could dedicate an entire 10 minute video to MSX cursor keys.

[@albatelf]

Some MSX cursor keys were arranged like an iron cross, so it was basically like having a large joypad.

[@charliekahn4205]

I thought the compass style was the accepted standard for MSX machines

[@valrond]

Indeed The MSX cursor keys were usually great, and the main way of playing games. I had a joystick but I barely used it. In fact, for great precision games like Gradius/Nemesis playing with the cursors was the best way.

[@sebastianpolcyn6358]

I find the C64 layout to be actually surprisingly decent, possibly the best you can do with only two keys. As a kid, I couldn't get used to them until I figured out the thought behind the arrangement: By default, you progress along the screen, with the key off to the side moving the cursor sideways and the other vertically; hold shift for reverse. That's how I explained it to myself at least, and once that clicked, I could comfortably use the cursor keys without thinking, it felt completely intuitive and natural.

[@QOTSAPT]

You can do great things with 2 fingers.

[@deus_ex_machina_]

@@QOTSAPT That's what she said...

[@MarcoPon]

Various MSX machines had some funky cursor keys styles!

[@basvandersluis5662]

My thoughts exactly. Where the VG-8010 is probably the most funky one.

[@AristarcoPalacios]

As a keyb lover and mech keybs collector and maker, I am delighted with this episode. Thanks a lot, 8 bit Guy!!

[@charlesswansonii9319]

I really like the various MSX computers that used a modified Inverted "T" layout where the Left and Right Cursor keys were double size with the Up and Down Cursor keys sandwiched between them. Sony's HitBit F1XD in the MSX2 line is one that stands out to me in particular with this layout.

[@kintustis]

The apple key layout at 10:30 is still used today on medical equipment; GE ultrasound machines being the ones I'm personally most familiar with.

[@cURLybOi]

oh man, this post gave me ptsd :D i do some it management on the side and i run a network in a medical facility that uses these ge ultrasound. absolute massive beasts with crt, windows 98-something in the background and absolute pain to admin because of course contractors won't give you access to the settings :D

[@Blox117]

im confused, no one uses the cursor keys except left handed ppl

[@cURLybOi]

@@Blox117 for gaming, yes. for moving though ancient ui or spreadsheets, the WSAD is not the way :D

[@wendysremix]

The BTC 5100C keyboard also uses that arrow layout.

[@jayhill2193]

@@Blox117 when you're typing or working on a spreadsheet, you'll absolutely want to use the cursor keys if it means you can keep both hands on the keyboard. Also, if you grew up playing racing games on PC, you'll fondly remember them being used for lack of a wheel or joystick.

[@r0kus]

An innovation of the Amiga keyboard is that the cursor keys would also function as mouse movement keys. It was a two-hand operation, though, requiring that the Amiga key be held down while you used the cursor keys for mouse motion. It wasn't ever a major feature, but if your mouse died, you would not be dead in the water.

[@halfplushalfsqrt5]

Was it any better than trying to use a gamepad as a mouse? AT&T (and presumably Xerox/Olivetti) had the opposite feature, where a mouse could function as the basic four cursor keys.

[@RKingis]

If I remember correctly, in Windows you can use the numpad as a mouse, if you enabled in accessibility settings. You can even use the numbers when NumLock was turned on.

[@dreammfyre]

I used an Amiga for 5-6 years and never knew this lol

[@FindecanorNotGmail]

Or more commonly, you had a second joystick plugged in in the control port used for the mouse.

[@molybd3num823]

@@RKingis yup, have that enabled and i use it sometimes

[@UsagiElectric]

Whoa, very cool to the see Centurion on the list! It should be noted that the Centurion branded terminal is actually just an ADDS Regent 40, so even within ADDS own lineup, the cursor keys were all over the board.

[@kittyplasma]

Nice to see you here! Great work on the Centurion :)

[@MiddayDolomite]

I still have a BBC Microsystem tucked away somewhere and I was pleased to see this featured at 4:12. I remembered the cursor keys being in that arrangement, but also that its games often opted instead to use letter keys such as 'W', 'A', 'S' and 'D' making it easier - if left-handed - to control the on-screen action.

[@paul_boddie]

On the Acorn machines, it was usually Z, X, : and / for directional movement, or A, Z, < and > for those preferring the reversed configuration. Superior Software's Exile (also released for the C64 and Amiga by Audiogenic) was unusual in using Q, W, P and L, however. Generally, gaming controls gave each hand control of one of the axes.

[@Maxjk0]

Love this breakdown! Would have loved to see you include the MSX and NEC computer keyboard layouts. The PC98 is probably among the few alternatives that at least is useable, due to the size of the keys

[@Akira625]

You managed to make discussing the layout of arrow keys fascinating, maybe because it's something that we take for granted these days.

[@ergosteur]

It’s interesting watching this and seeing the whole journey to find the optimal layout of inverted T cursor keys, and nowadays we have laptop manufacturers and keyboard aesthetic enthusiasts going back to weird cursor key layouts or removing the cursor keys completely.

[@Jeff-cn9up]

The early Ultima games on the Commodore 64 opted to use a diamond pattern, the @ for up, the / for down, : for left, and ; for right. See 8:20 for the key layout if interested. It was a little awkward, but less so then the requirement of using a shift modifier button. These four keys were then more commonly used for these types of games on the C64 going forward. But others, like The Bard's Tale, opted for an inverted T, using I, J, K, and L.

[@VassilisPerantzakis]

Also, on the Amstrad (Shneider) CPC 6128 (1985), the cursors keys were of the inverted T type. The previous CPC models had a cross type arrangement with the copy key in the middle.

[@NikosKakouros]

I was going to comment on the CPC6128 also… my first computer… 😮

[@vapocalypse]

MSX was famous for their different cursor keys. I had a Gradiente MSSX 1.1, and the cursor keys were a rectangle, with diagonal lines dividing the 4 arrow keys.

[@CrazyBossDK]

Yes Most MSX computers i have seen its quite good, but the Spectravideo SVI 738 its a bit wierd but you get used to that too.

[@chouseification]

Yay, "new 8-Bit Guy" video is always a neat surprise! Hope things are going well in the new studio, etc. :D

[@jimfixespixels]

When the intro music fires up it makes me SOO happy.

[@jedtattum9996]

if you are left handed you use the arrow keys for movement in games

[@oguzhan001]

@@jimfixespixels 8bit Keys' intro is better but alas, he rarely uploads there.

[@mikesilva3868]

Agreed 😊

[@jimfixespixels]

@@oguzhan001 facts

[@Dwedit]

The Gateway Anykey keyboard (shipped with 1992-era PCs) had true diagonal arrow keys, which worked by quickly pressing Left/Right for a split second, then Up/Down. A space bar key was in the middle. They worked well with text editors, but not so well with Civilization (which only saw the first par of the keypress).

[@RKingis]

Interesting how they had the old style function keys on the left & the new 4x3 grouping on the top.

[@HarvardHeinous]

Yeah, was hoping he'd mention that one too.

[@mikewallace3030]

I had the same Gateway keyboard. Certain games worked really well with the diagonals but others not so much. It was the keyboard I learned on, so switching to the inverted T later on needed a lot of new muscle memory.

[@EddieSheffield]

One of my favorite keyboards was the Focus FK-5001. It also had diagonal keys, and the center key, rather than being home, was a "Turbo" key that was a high-speed key repeat. And it had a built-in calculator in conjunction with the numpad. That thing was huge, clicky, crazy, and I loved it!

[@newmonengineering]

After watching I just think it's fascinating how many of these computers I got to play with growing up. My Dad loved computers and programming, he loves math. He would often buy computers used from friends whom upgraded. We had a ton of different computers at home to play with. Litterally stacks of them. I played with most models mentioned at one point or another. I think his passion for technology rubber off because computers is how I make money now. Programming is a passion that is just fascinating to me and has launched me into the field and payed well at the same time. This was a trip through my teenage years. From Texis interment through apple, and IBM with everything in between like commodore, Sinclair, Atari etc. Thanks for the memories.

[@kilianhekhuis]

I've seen, back in the day, people play using the IBM configuration with their thumb on the 2/down key. I also missed the MSX cursor keys, which had an arrangement like the IBM, but in a square fashion (and were also often played by using the thumb on the down key).

[@larsprins3200]

The DEC VT100 terminal was introduced in 1978. Four cursor keys in a straight configuration, like the VT105 you showed. It was heavily used in cross-development and I was still working with them in the 90s! They were the typical choice for connecting to the serial port of a target computer in a VME rack, for instance.

[@pemmican518]

14:19, the 4 key has 'Beg' on it. I wondered if that was an arcane programming term (like the program is begging for input), but then realized it probably stands for 'Begin.' Very informative video!

[@rogink]

Yeah but what does Attn mean?

[@milesdavis2353]

Attention

[@AutPen38]

BEG moves the cursor to the Beginning, End moves it to the End. I'm not sure why it has a Home button as well as Beg. I should have paid more Attn.

[@cuteswan]

It's always good to look back and remember how much time & effort it can take to make things more intuitive and convenient.

[@AMPProf]

Yep build it Get Ouchie Rebuild it

[@thaernejem7317]

Fascinating how you collected all of these different types of keyboards layouts and even get them ready to run to demonstrate the variety of the keys and the user’s comfortability of use. Thank you 😊

[@raven4k998]

he knows everything about computer features you never think twice about today

[@thaernejem7317]

@@raven4k998 i bit he does!

[@caeserromero3013]

Some old DOS driving games used the greater than and less than keys < > for left and right steering. I still play Geoff Crammond's F1 Grand Prix from 1991 (via DOSBOX) which uses < > for left and right and the A key for accelerate and Z for brake :)

[@AutPen38]

It was very common in days of yore for games to only use 4 buttons, plus one for fire/jump and it made ergonomic sense to use both hands for directions. e.g. left hand does up and down, right hand does left and right. In a bit of a chicken and egg situation, games started getting more complicated, with more buttons to press, around the same time that cursor keys became more commonplace and in the "standard configuration" (leaving the left hand free for actions like firing, jumping, picking up objects). As an old skool kind of guy, I preferred the old games that used no more than 5 keys but still used both hands.

[@caeserromero3013]

@@AutPen38 Me too. All the original old DOS games used to use the arrow keys. I seem to remember even later games like Wolfenstein 3D and Doom used the arrow keys. WASD was a more recent key configuration for things like Medal of honour and Call of duty. I think the main difference between the new shooters and the old dos ones is that aiming. You used to aim by moving your body, so just the arrow keys to move and the ctrl key to shoot, but COD type games have separate control for the weapons, so you move the person with WASD and move the sights of the weapon with the mouse, so a totally different dynamic. And some games even use the mouse to move the person too. I think when riding the horse etc in Assassins Creed, you press W to move forward but the mouse to steer right/left. I really struggled with that at first :)

[@ivo215]

The MSX seems to be missing. Although the MSX was not a single computer, but rather a standard shared over multiple manufacturers. My school back in the eighties had a Philips MSX1 VG-8020, with very characteristic cursor keys arranged in a large square.

[@craigb7992]

In 1983 ATARI with the ill-fated 1200XL (in-market for 4 months) added 4 extra function keys F1-F4 which in normal mode were the same layout of the main keyboard (Up, Down, Left, Right), plus SHIFT and CTRL functions. Later in Fall '83 the cost reduced 800XL and 600XL were released for Xmas but dropped extra keys. However, functions were kept in the XL/XE OS. I found in an ATARI magazine of the time (Analog, Antic, or Compute!) an article how to add the function keys back by adding four buttons. I recently posted my 600XL internals pictures and how to wire the keyboard matrix to get them to work. I have a git-hub page under craigb-spinner that shows my 'Atari XL/XE function keys' article along with Arcade Spinner, Trackball, and Dual joystick boxes for the Retro game of MAME. I don't really remember using the cursor functions but using the special CTRL function to speed-up number calcs.

[@-taz-]

I started on an XT clone that was a joint venture between Toshiba, Xerox, and Microsoft using an 88-key Xerox keyboard (and a made in Japan MS RJ-11 mouse that connected to the keyboard). I always have my thumb on the down arrow, plus I can always reach home, pgup, etc. fast. Being trained to edit text and draw PrtintMaster graphics at such a young age was always a benefit to me to the point where I can still easily outpace my long time vi expert coworkers. The inverted T was always just a total waste of space to me.

[@forbiddenera]

Maybe also because I started on a C128, explained as he mentioned in the video

[@HeisenbergFam]

Its crazy how arrows were the traditional movement on keyboard and then WASD became more popular

[@sodadrinker89]

WASD became a thing because of Counter Strike.

[@Gideon_Judges6]

That might explain why I never like WASD. I was fine with the arrow keys.

[@AmartharDrakestone]

@@sodadrinker89 Nope. CS might be the game that came default with this scheme (which I don't even know if it did), but the first Quake was the game that popularized it.

[@wChris_]

This is number 11

[@nathanlamaire]

​@@sodadrinker89 *Quake player

[@Jimbaloidatron]

It's amazing how that muscle memory laid down in younger years sticks around deep inside the brain; I'd spent hours coding on the Atari 800XL back then and so when I picked up the retro bug all these years later, it was effortless and I hadn't given it a thought, not till this video!

[@AutPen38]

I grew up with the rubber-keyed ZX Spectrum and had no problem playing emulated games with various configurations of keys (often A and Z for up and down, O and P for left and right) but it was really weird when I tried typing some BASIC, as I've got so used to modern cursor keys that it was very weird to be reminded that the Speccy didn't have any! (You had to press SHIFT and 5 for left, for example). It felt so weird that - with the emulator I tried, the cursor keys on my PC keyboard did nothing at all! I don't know how I ever programmed anything in the '80s without them.

[@JeracotIII]

After decades of playing DDR, the LDUR arrangement is cemented as my 4-in-line default

[@DarkArachnid666]

Interesting. I've always thought that you had to play DDR with your feet.

[@jlitagibfonseca]

Very nice to see a so interesting video about a so trivial thing such as cursor keys in a keyboard. 8 Bit Guy is really the guy!

[@GianmarioScotti]

A bit surprising you didn't mention the MSX computers, as their keyboards had a big emphasis on including the kursor keys in a diamond arrangement - and the SVI 318 (almost MSX) even had a joystick-cursor key hybrid.

[@JesterEric]

He is probably not very knowledgeable about MSX

[@mikebroich1487]

How about the “WordStar Diamond”? Trivia: Since the Franklin 1200 (the Apple II plus clone) was basically purpose-built to run WordStar on it’s included CPM card, the numbers pad could be switched to cursor control and when in this mode, pressing the arrow keys on it actually sent the Control-E, Control-S, Control-D, and Control-Z key codes to move the cursor around in WordStar.

[@eris4734]

i've actually switched to direction keys all in a row for certain games because it's often very useful to be able to switch between up and down extremely quickly (to the point my middle finger would sometimes slip trying to move between up and down). I actually use another ordering of the directions: left, up, down, right, because that seemed like it would be an intuitive switch from inverted T. In retrospect, left-up-right-down or left-down-right-up might have been a bit better, but it felt weird to alternate the vertical and horizontal buttons like that. It took a little while to get used to, but not as long as you might expect, like a couple of weeks before I was mostly able to play as well as usual. It's also felt more comfortable to not be moving my middle finger around so much, and more confident in my ability to hit the right buttons.

[@davidellsworth4203]

I'm one of the very few people who do not prefer the inverted-T layout. Since 1991, I've been using a Northgate OmniKey Ultra, which belongs in the category you noted at 13:26 in this video, with a cursor pad modeled after the way the numeric keypad works when NumLock is off (though there was also an inverted-T version). I use the numpad often to enter numbers, so it's great being able to use both that and the cursor pad in my preferred layout without having to toggle NumLock. But it does mean that no modern keyboard suits my needs, and I've had to keep buying OmniKey Ultras off eBay when too many keys get sticky/bouncy for repair to be practical. (Sadly I couldn't make the switch to an Avant Stellar, because while it was based on the Northgate OmniKey Ultra2, it only had an inverted-T model.) I have learned how to be more kind to my fourth OmniKey though, so it might actually last much longer than my previous three. (My first was the original Ultra, and starting in 1995, I've had an Ultra2 with n-key rollover; at this point, the Ultra no longer works, and two of the Ultra2 need repair - I'm using the third Ultra2.) Now while I can certainly understand why people prefer inverted-T, it is much more unfortunate that function keys being on top became the standard. Function keys on the left, with F11 F12 on the top row, is much better and allows function keys to be easily used by touch. I think function keys on top being the standard has actually resulted in far less software even using function keys at all in their default bindings, which is sad.

[@Jammet]

The Amstrads also had decent inverted T cursor keys. They never get a mention, but also are really fascinating home computers of the era.

[@faenethlorhalien]

I remember in the 90s the standard for gaming was to NumLock off the numpad, and use the numlock cursor keys for games. And in the 2000s, it was to use the cursor keys for games, with the keys in the 6-key block above it, along with shift, right ctrl, return and backspace for other game functionalities. I didn't use WASD until the 2010s.

[@belstar1128]

Yea i played a lot of pc games in the late 90s but in 2001 i took a break from pc gaming. and i came back in 2008 but i kept trying to use cursor keys but games moved to wasd .also modern games require a mouse wheel and that is annoying for laptop gamers and hand held pc's. and wasd is annoying in my region since we use the azerty layout so i prefer the cursor keys. but most games let you redefine the controls.

[@daylightanimation]

I still don't use WASD in games... more comfortable with standard arrows.... luckily most of them allow you to change controls the way you want to

[@Bukki13]

I’m a simple man. I see an 8-Bit Guy video, I click. wait a minute mice weren’t really a thing in the 8-bit era

[@az.floral]

i think enter is the precursor of the left click (see what i did there)

[@araigumakiruno]

15 minute video about cursor keys???? by 8bit guy????? i clicked faster no questions

[@DailyCorvid]

1.41M simple men say they agree 100% :) *_Legitimately my favourite channel on KZbin, and I subscribe to a TON of them!_*

[@linklovezelda]

You're a simple man, you copy the same comment that's on every video instead of being creative and coming up with your own 😂

[@JohnArnoldUK]

Once again I am in awe and admiration for your extreme nerdery. Keep it coming man.

[@danbert8]

Our 1992 Gateway 2000 PC had a nice IBM clone keyboard that had a full set of 8 direction keys (with diagonals like a numpad) next to the numpad and the center was a duplicate space key. This was really convenient for gaming as the spacebar was generally the fire key so you could play a lot of games with just one hand freeing up the other one for the mouse for games that supported that. It also had a second set of F keys on the left side of the keyboard and onboard programmable macros. This was awesome for games as I could have a quick 24 hotkeys.

[@BADC0FFEE]

The coolest cursor keys are the ones in the hitbit mezzo MSX and other similar machines, the mezzo not only has a + shaped cursor key configuration but there's even a little "joystick" that attaches in the middle

[@ClassicGameSessions]

Fascinating to see the history and comparison of cursor keys on the 8-bit systems of the era. Can't overstate how key they've been to gaming (no pun intended)!

[@taeber]

Great topic and glad y'all went with the inverted-T for the X16. I'm slightly annoyed with most laptops keyboard's design choices around cursor keys, including Apples. Most are shrinking them to get them to fit or leaving the left and right full height while smashing the up and down keys together. Also, I'm unsure if someone else already commented, but VIM and other applications use hjkl for cursor movements because of the ADM-3A layout.

[@scythal]

I have an ASUS laptop and all of its cursor keys are half-height (compared to usual keys)! It was a little disappointing at first but thankfully I got the hang of WASD, haha

[@whette_fahrtz]

The half-height keys on laptops aren't so bad if they're all the same size, and the layout is still an inverted-T. The worst was on the butterfly era Macbook Pros with half-height up-down arrows, but full size left and right. Every hardware designer thinks they need to try and make their mark solving the difficult problem of "unique arrow key arrangement", but no one asked, and the inverted-T is physiologically the best fit for almost everyone.

[@scythal]

@@whette_fahrtz In my case the half-height arrow keys (which makes the already-small normal keys seem massive) on my laptop makes it far harder to press as my fingers have to be uncomfortably close to each other... Not great for long-term use!

[@te0b0]

Hello, The 8-bit guy I have been watching your videos ever since "The I-Book Guy" on several old KZbin accounts. Your content is like no other, in a good way! I could watch your videos on days on end! In fact, I have. I had no interest in computers, be it Commodore, Tandy, Apple, Texas Instruments, Sinclair and your other videos; speech synthesizers, 108 bizarre media types, the plug-and-play games, the I-phone 2G. I just want to thank you for all your years on KZbin! Please don't stop making videos of any type. Thank you so much for your service, David! Edit: I forgot to mention the Commodore history series too!

[@jeremybarker7577]

The story about DEC and the inverted-T layout on the LK201 keyboard which appeared in 1982 is interesting. I was an engineer at DEC from 1978 to 1992 and this my recollection of it. It wasn't the first time DEC used the layout (as far as I can tell that was on the VT71-T typesetting terminal that dates from 1976) but it had used several different layouts for cursor keys on its video terminals. The first was the VT05 (1971) which has 4 keys in a 2x2 square layout with up and down on the top row and left and right on the bottom row (IBM used the same layout on its 3270 series terminals). The later VT5x series (1975) had a vertical row of 4 keys which top to bottom were up, down left and right. Following on from that the VT100 series (1978) had a horizontal row of 4 keys which left to right were up, down, left and right. Although an internal standard for terminal keyboards had been produced in January 1980 it didn't standardise the cursor keys. In late 1980 development work was starting on several personal computers and a decision was made to have a common keyboard for all of them. It was seen that text editing tasks from word processing equipment would see the heaviest use of the cursor keys and much research and testing was carried out (I think it was done in the word processing group) on cursor key layouts. Many of the tests involved having people perform various timed text editing tasks with different cursor key layouts. Those tests showed that down and right was the most frequently used sequence and that the inverted-T layout was the most efficient and that is why it was adopted for the keyboard.

[@paul_boddie]

Thanks for the interesting story! I imagine that this work contributed to the DEC Rainbow having the same general keyboard layout as the VT220, instead of copying the IBM PC, and thus itself influencing the later IBM PC layouts.

[@litigioussociety4249]

I'm surprised you didn't mention WASD once in this video. Those are the intuitive letters to choose for a D-pad, and for some odd reason many keyboards would not allow you to input two cursors at once and another key, such as up, right, and zero on the number pad to jump and run or shoot. However, the software would allow W, D, and the zero to be pressed together.

[@kruksog]

Its interesting to see the older layouts of the cursor keys. I always wondered why vim used the layout it does, but this video makes it pretty clear it's a historical relic (which would have been my guess, but it's neat to know.)

[@MarcusTheDorkus]

Specifically the keyboard that it was designed for had the arrows marked on HJKL.

[@toshibasony9222]

Seeing the Centurion in an 8-Bit Guy video is for me the most amazing crossover I've seen in years! And even more so now, when I am coming here right after the new Usagi Electric video :)

[@yorgle]

Hellorld!

[@ropersonline]

My only complaint is that that machine isn't really "the Centurion", just a Centurion-branded ADDS OEM glass terminal. The Centurion was one of those computers that generally didn't use display adapters (at least not by default) and used serial terminals for I/O. The console provided the screen and keyboard, but the TTY was not the computer.

[@toshibasony9222]

Yes, it's true. Would be more correct to say that ADDS used the layout, just like he did for other terminals in the video.

[@stevenvallarsa1765]

Once in a while you can remember things from the dark recesses of one's mind. About 20 years ago I was playing with on online Commodore 64 emulator after not touching a C64 in over ten years, where I typed up a one line PRINT statement… and my fingers automatically went to SHIFT-2 to type the double quotations marks. I was dumbstruck at how I got back into the zone like that. I'm surprised you didn't mention the mini-inverted-T arrow key layouts that have been on Apple's laptops for a while now. Simply brilliant.

[@AutPen38]

On the ZX Spectrum, the most common thing a games-playing kid would type was LOAD "", and you could do it all in less than a second with just the thumb and index finger of your right hand. (Pressing J made the word LOAD pop up). When I tried using an emulator it felt very weird trying to do speech marks with a shift button on the right hand side and the P key.

[@thinkingahead6750]

An enjoyable wander through life. I remember my father taking me to see a man at his works whose main job was designing keyboards. Not for computers, they were still on paper tape input and output, but for typesetting machines. An amazing and enthralling visit.

[@RyeOnHam]

My wife and I always use the curser keys but my kids both use the "ASDW" which is standard for a lot of games. I find that I have to shift the keyboard to the left when gaming, but that's what I do. Even weirder to me, my cousin uses his mouse in his left hand. I'm in my 50's and he's even older.

[@awmperry]

Ah yes, the olden days of cursor key movement, key-bound vertical look, and fire bound to LCtrl. I’ve got a vague memory of Duke 3D defaulting to that in its early shareware days, but I wonder if maybe that wasn’t among the last big games to use it?

[@May-or-May-not]

It's so fascinating to see things we take for granted as being standardized. Obviously they had to test things out before they found the best arrangement, but it's super interesting to see all the options they went through.

[@tsm688]

I don't think it was rocket science which arrangement was better. Almost anything is better than the inline four. But things like ease of manufacture, space, and needing to not obviously rip off a competitor, got in the way. He didn't mention it in the vid, but nearly all the worst offenders belong to integrated keyboard units. They didn't actually have space for an inverted T in those and just crammed them wherever.

[@Boodlums]

@@tsm688 Apple eventually came up with a way to get an inverted-T in the space of inline keys: they made them half height!

[@DutchDaddy]

Nice video again! I really missed the MSX computers though! I feel they don't get enough love 😢

[@charon1701]

Yeah I too waited for them to get mentioned

[@mrpetit2]

Yes MSX computers had quite a few strange/wacky cursor key layouts. Usually styled towards games, like diamond and inverse diamond layout. But I think MSX never got popular in the USA and is thus mostly overlooked by american youtubers

[@jwhite5008]

100% Agreed. I would take classical MSX layout over the inverted T any day.

[@CaptainCaveman1170]

@@jwhite5008 Are you sure that isn't just nostalgia talking? I absolutely love many of the MSX designs, but for ergonomics and productivity, the inverted T configuration just fits the hand the best.

[@jwhite5008]

@@CaptainCaveman1170 I'm not quite sure since i don't have the keyboard anymore. When I went from MSX keyboard to DOS one the latter felt uncomfortable. Maybe it was habit, maybe the way I tend to place my fingers, but I still think MSX felt more intuitive.

[@CarlosOsuna1970]

There's basically two things I think you forgot to mention about the inverted T. Firstly the most important one is that it wasn't really popularized by the IBM Model M on any sort of PC, but rather it's use on the IBM RT PC. IBM had previously experimented with different variations of the Model F they finally got the IBM 4704 F77 which turned out to be the basis for the Model M on the RT PC which was later lent to the IBM PC AT and later on to the PS/2. Secondly, even though the RT wasn't that successful, it forced SUN to move from it's Type 4 keyboard which was PC-esque, to the Type 5 which is the biggest keyboards I've ever used. Silicon Graphics stuck with a Model M type, which was the reason Apple went forward with that same design for it's extended Keyboard ADB keyboard. Even NeXT on 1989 offered a similar keyboard, albeit without all the function keys which looks remarkable similar to the Mode M. So why did the Model M modeled the UNIX world? Well you said it yourself. Most workstations were trying to extend the VT220 which had the 8 region design (9 if you consider the lonely Esc key on the left side). The PS/2 was really a confirmation that the RT was right and everyone needed 12 function keys and a separate block for the inverted T and the cursor control (Begin End, Pg Up Pg Down) thing. For me the 101 keyboard has always been the RT keyboard and it was on the RS/6000 that I got to use it extensively. Ironically, the big RS/6000 were accessed using a terminal and the one of choice was the elegant ASCII Display Station IBM 3151 which had a Model M. www.computinghistory.org.uk/det/4805/IBM-RS-6000-Model-550L/

[@dumfrog]

All MSX computers (1983) had dedicated cursor keys that were very useful for text editing and even for gaming ! I had a Sony HB-501 and I wouldn't have figure, as a young teenager, that not all computers had such an equipment.

[@owlstead]

There is also the weird setup of the Philips VG8235. That was a pretty good arrangement, but I would not have a clue how to call that. Nowadays the keys feel a bit crappy to me, but hey, that computer is old and I've played many a game using those without a joystick. They were also pretty good for editing basic & text.

[@matguy1000]

videos like this are so great cuz we don't know we wanted to know until the info is presented. I find it surprisingly intriguing. most of us have weird random questions that keep us up at night and we're not sure where to look to get all the info we could want in an entertaining way. that's where david comes in :)

[@TheExileFox]

the guy is living under a rock though. Any non-gaming laptop that is built after 2015 is almost guaranteed to have stepped back to a worse arrangement of the arrow keys, where up and down is overlapping. This should not be a thing on devices that are 14 inch and up. You can thank Apple for this since Dell and HP just copied that idea and then everybody else followed along with it blindly.

[@burtonrodman]

I can't believe there no examples in this era of a "wide cross" layout with the up and down stacked vertically close together and the left/right separated on either side... this seems to be common on "compact" laptop keyboards today (Microsoft Surface) with the up/down together the height of a single row -- though I hate it with a passion ;) Thanks for the history lesson!

[@-taz-]

Wasn't that in the original MS Ergo keyboard (Elite)? If so, I had that, and I really liked it because it shrunk down the inverted T keys, letting me put my mouse closer to my keyboard. It was perfect for me since I use NumLk/keypad cursor keys instead of inverted T. And then the later MS ergo keyboards that reinstated the inverted T always bugged me.

[@CaptainCaveman1170]

I hate those tiny half-keys too, but I understand why they do it (it preserves the nice rectangular shape of the keyboard). But, the more recent trend is far, far worse in my opinion. They are now making the up/down keys full size...but shoving the "up" key right around where your finger expects the shift key to be. I absolutely hate it, and it's a deal breaker for me. But I doubt Gen Z cares, which means the keyboard layout that I prefer is going away soon (and already is becoming harder to find on low/end or "casual" laptops).

[@SUCRA]

Oh man, this settled something that comes back again and again to me. I played Formula One GP from MicroProse for DOS when I was a kid. The standard key layout was: A forward, Z backward, < left and > right, instead of the regular cursor keys. Looking at some early keyboard layouts this makes sense because these keys are close to where they were in opposing side layouts.

[@AutPen38]

Indeed. For the older games (in the 8-bit era especially) it was perfectly normal to use both your hands for directional controls, with your left hand doing left/right or up/down and your right hand doing the other axis. It never occurred to me as a kid that left-right-down-up could all be done with one hand if four keys were placed in a t-shape, allowing the free hand to press 2 or 3 other buttons (for jump, fire, pick up etc). The old games were so much simpler. Many of my favourites were just left, right, and fire, so a 4-direction cursor key configuration wasn't even needed.

[@RevNoch]

I miss my old Gateway Anykey keyboard from the 90's. It had a dedicated 8 way cursor button set instead of the inverted T. Loved that thing.

[@Peter_S_]

The Apple ][ with an Autostart ROM had cursor keys of a sort but they were not labeled. If you hit ESC then I, J, K, & M turned into Up, Left, Right, and Down respectively until you pressed another key like SpaceBar to cancel that mode. ESC and A, B, C, & D also moved the cursor to A-advance, B-backspace, C-go down, or D-go up but you needed to hit ESC prior to each individual move.

[@hyperboloidofonesheet1036]

I got used to resting my thumb on the M key on the Apple as a kid; I still use my thumb for down arrow on inverted-T cursor keys. I don't do that for WASD keys though, and its why I resisted switching to using WASD keys in games. It wasn't until I started playing games that required keyboard movement and mouse aiming that I finally switched.

[@charliekahn4205]

I was not aware that the Apple ][ used a modal input by default. That's pretty cool.

[@1944GPW]

Thanks for that! I was hard pressed to recall the ]['s up / down cursoring/editing, though I used to do it all the time.

[@kc9scott]

I don’t have an Apple II set up and running to test, but I’m pretty sure those Esc cursor movement keys were specific to Applesoft BASIC. I doubt it would have worked in Pascal, or in most apps that were written in machine-language.

[@Peter_S_]

@@kc9scott Nope. ESC keys were in the F8 monitor ROM since 1977. I remember using ESC-D from the monitor in 1978 when Applesoft was on cassette. Look at the disassembly of the F8 ROM and you'll see that it has nothing to do with Applesoft. It was specific to the RDCHAR routine at $FD35 which was called by the GETLN routine at $FD6A. The original F8 ROM had A-advance, B-backspace, C-go down, D-go up, E-clear to EOL, F-clear to EOF, and @-cls. The Autostart ROM added the modal IJKM bit. Every program which used GETLN or RDCHAR included ESC key support.

[@marasmusine]

The ZX Spectrum, like the Timex 1000 in the video, had cursor keys in a row on the 5 6 7 8 keys. You just got used to playing games like that, you needed both hands though. You would use your right ring finger to press the fire button on the 0 key. The Sinclair joystick interface was mapped to those keys.

[@tendrosstoodross2976]

Sinclair right hand joystick port was mapped to 6789 and 0 not the cursor keys.

[@AutPen38]

Due to my lack of joystick and my love of Psion's 'Match Point', I trained myself to use 5 keys in a row on the rubber keyboard. It seems mad to think of it now, but - as a kid - I could play a two-player game with a friend with four hands pressing all the number keys on the top row of the little keyboard. I would use 1-5 and my friend used 6-0. As I recall, if you held down a couple of keys, some of your opponent's keypresses would be ignored, which meant it was quite easy to serve an ace! After learning the "5 in a row" alignment, I often used that configuration for other games that allowed keys to be redefined. I often used QWERT for left-right-down-up and fire. Is my mind playing tricks, or was that also the default layout for early games by Ultimate Play The Game? I feel like Atic Atak might have used that configuration.

[@TimHollingworth]

I'm amazed that David can make a 16 minute video about curser keys. And make it super interesting!

[@ReZerO100]

my dad had two Minolta PCW1's for his office, they came with an interesting keyboard the arrow keys were very close to the inverted T, had a nice extra bit of raised plastic between the arrow keys so it was easier to feel which button you were pressing from the ridge, he really did like those as he could type directly to the attached printer if he wanted to, made cheque creation a lot easier, kept one around in his office until the early 2000's as nothing beat it for cheque templates

[@jonrutherford6852]

As a viewer with significant hearing impairment, I want to send you a big Thank You! for the superb captioning. Accurate captions are so rare as to be almost non-existent (and this applies not only to KZbin but to motion-picture and broadcast giants). Much appreciated -- wish this quality could become the norm -- perhaps with penalties for failure to comply.

[@freezingcathedral]

penalties for not making entertainment the way certain people want... we really are reaching 1930s again, aren't we?

[@KarlHamilton]

Bil Herd has said that he got the C128 keyboard design from the Digital terminal as that was what they were using at Commodore, so it's not a coincidence, it's by design :)

[@player1_fanatic]

Fun fact, I still use original IBM-PC layout for cursor keys even today, since my first home computer I started with was IBM PC-XT with same layout. And all modern PCs still support it as long as I turn off NumLock key. As extra bonus Pg Up/Down and Home/End are all on convenient places, and as long as I pick up any keyboard or laptop with numpad I can use the same layout I learned over 35 years ago, as a kid.

[@-taz-]

Same! This is the most important keyboard fact, by far, if you ask me.

[@widicamdotnet]

Me three! Started on an (outdated at the time) Amstrad PC1512 that had a keyboard similar to the Model F. Now nearly 30 years later, I still revert to using the numpad arrows whenever and wherever they're available, especially for text editing and coding. When I'm using my partner's ThinkPad, we're always fighting over whether NumLock should be on or off :-)

[@anon_y_mousse]

In case you're curious, the arrow keys in a straight line configuration can be arranged in 24 different ways.

[@_tereur34]

actually less because no manufacturer would put the right key on the left of the left key

[@anon_y_mousse]

@@_tereur34 That's why I said can be, not are. In fact some manufacturers used the same layouts, as he mentions in the video. But it would be interesting if the most popular one had a backwards configuration that everyone got used to. Can you imagine the kind of world we'd be living in if that happened.

[@dottedrhino]

The VIC/C64 configuration worked perfectly for me! Very easy.

[@bluedragon219123]

I remember always wanting, and still do, a Numpad on any laptop I bought/buy because the original PC port of Final Fantasy VII used the Numpad exclusively for movement and actions and any other keys on the keyboard, including the arrow keys, aren't used. The new/Steam port changed this but I still like having a Numpad especially when working with numbers. :)

[@sonic2000gr]

For me at least the TI-99 cursor keys were easy to use, you just held FCTN with your right hand and use them with your left. The fact that UP/DOWN arrows worked to get into edit mode for a line in BASIC was a great shortcut. On the other hand moving the cursor around in a line and using delete / insert was a real nightmare.

[@JDoucette]

ESDX and IJKM were great for gaming. I used these as defaults for controls for my own games for a long time even after moving onto other hardware.

[@carlosgd]

missing mentions: - the already quoted in the comments about the MSX constellation and its 1000's combinations of cursor keys (msx is rare in US and 8bg tends to "forget" non-US systems frequently) - the original amstrad CPC is another example of "crossed" cursor keys, with the "copy" key in the center of the 4 CK's and an odd placement in top of the numpad. PCW also uses a similar arrangement, crammed into the numpad. changed later in the 6128 in favor of inverted T arrangement (crammed with the "function" keys in a numpad layout) - the modern tendency to use WASD for "cursor" keys, to use with the left hand for movement, and combine with mouse with the right hand for view and rotation, most predominantly in games.... and its ultimate tradeoff of, decades later, start selling again PC keyboards that are not "extended" ones, but cruched ones, which some of them not only does not have "numpads", even some of them dont have inverted T cursor keys! - in many games in 8bit systems (essentially in the zx spectrum, but also in others) using OPQA, or some other combination like AZNM, for ortogonal movement. nice recap video. :)

[@vaclavmuller]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrow_keys#QAOP_keys

[@WacKEDmaN]

you missed the Amstrad CPC... it has its own area for cursors in a + arrangement ..with a copy key in the middle...it also has split cursors something you dont see on many computers

[@davidnash9343]

I was waiting for them to come up too. The CPC 664 had massive angled cursor keys in a pleasing blue

[@gschizas]

Don't forget, the original 3 CPC models had 3 different key arrangements,with 6128 and the plus models going for the inverted T.

[@jasejj]

Too high up on the layout though which made them annoying to use.

[@Zero_Gravitas]

The CPC6128 had an inverted T, also.

[@eto6197]

The cursor keys on the 464 and (especially) the 664 were an eye catcher but a pain to use. I was so happy that the 6128 (which I bought) used the inverted T configuration with the COPY key being accessed with the other hand.

[@Poliwager]

I grew up playing games on both an Apple Extended Keyboard and a PowerBook with the sideways arrow keys, and from an early age I understood that the inverted-T keyboard configuration made more sense. Great video!

[@TexasCat99]

The Commodore VIC/64 Cursor keys actually worked great. Of course, as stated they were not used in games since we used joysticks. I don't recall ever having issues with the VIC/64 keys. When I went to the C=128, I was looking forward to the 4 dedicated keys. But... I rarely used them in the end. Being at the top made it a pain to use. So I kept doing the VIC/64 keys until I went to the Amigas... of course the A500/2000/3000 inverted T worked great.

[@paulguk]

It's a shame you didn't discuss modern laptops. I think there's an annoying trend there recently where manufacturers are designing keys to be visually pleasing rather than tactile. A lot more use full size left and right cursor keys, but half size up and down. As a developer it drives me crazy as I use the cursor keys a lot, and my fingers struggle to find where they are without having to look if I can't differentiate between them because they're all the same shape rather than the traditional inverted T. I wish more people would mention the keyboard layout when reviewing laptops. It's the single most annoying issue that can make an otherwise great laptop almost useless to me 😢

[@drstefankrank]

I refuse to buy any new laptop just because their current keyboards are all horrible. No spaces between F-keys and the sleep button right next to the F12. Thanks for that. I currently place a Lenovo traveller keyboard on top of my HP laptop to get at least an almost alright keyboard. I want the layout and feel from the IBM T23 back, just maybe the windows key included.

[@GrandDawggy]

This is a bad idea but I have heated up a paper clip and used it to mark a key with a small dot and after I'd touch the lighter to the key to smooth out the lip. I did this on a call center keyboard and the guy next to me asked what I was doing and when I told him, he asked if I'd do his next lol Edit: in school I used to swap the N and M key on keyboards and sometimes I'd come back to the same computer only for it to not have been fixed meaning anyone who used it properly had a bad time lol

[@huge_balls]

I was literally about to comment the same thing!! Someone should make a part 2 discussing modern keyboard design and yes I notice this in modern laptops everywhere.

[@johncelticbhoy1030]

my main gripe with keyboards is when a key is inserted between the shift key and the Z key on the left hand side. For anyone who learned to type on a typewriter it is a constant nuisance. I thought that was a toshiba laptop problem only, but I see in this video (11:50) that it started with the original IBM PC keyboard.

[@Anuclano]

This is a good trend. Looks like the MSX configuration, except the up and down keys are too small. I would like to buy such laptop (never seen one). On MSX you could press two buttons at the same time to move cursor diagonally, even in text editor. If you had two opposite buttons pressed at a time and released one, the other would activate. The author it seems intentionally skipped MSX so to make IBM PC/Wintel look good.

[@drxym]

My first computer, a ZX Spectrum defaulted to using a 5678 arrangement. The editor used shift keys and these numbers and so did games. But then games appeared and it was more common to have QA (up/down) and OP(left/right) controls, with one hand for each. I assume when you have no mouse this is fine. But then when the mouse appeared they switched to the ASDW arrangement because a) most people are right handed, and b) the cursor keys are in the worst place for right handed people.

[@ahmad-murery]

Maybe you want to check MSX machines, they mostly have a square/diamond layout and some of them are really weird

[@owlstead]

Yeah, I learned to love the square arrangement on my VG8235, although I currently would prefer the inverted T, or the Mod + JKLI on my current UHK.

[@DanielMReck]

Interesting that evolution toward the eventual standard took so long. As a lefty growing up on a Compaq luggable, my preferred setup is left hand on the mouse or CTRL/ALT and right hand on the numpad for cursor control, using every adjacent key for additional controls. The numpad is also great for fine mouse cursor control using the MouseKeys feature, with 5 as the click key and slash, star, and asterisk selecting the mouse button. To this day, my media player controls are CTRL+ALT+numpad combos. 8/2 are start/stop. 4/6 are previous/next. 7/9 are rewind/fast forward. 5 is track info. 1 is jump-to selection. 3 is media library. -/+ are volume. Slash, star, minus, plus, zero, dot, and enter have all picked up other functions depending on what I'm using.

[@Wadethewallaby2001]

Back in the day when I used to play Lego, Star Wars, Indiana, Jones, etc. I use the error keys for a very long time until they new arrangement WSND style. I had to learn that. The first official game that I use WSND was Gary’s mod but before that I didn’t know how to. Most of the games I played was Aero keys. Now I always use the WSND.

[@cosmefulanito5933]

MSX got things right from the start. A computer forever forgotten by this channel.

[@joshwilliams7692]

I like the idea of using shift to access the up and down arrows. It's really an ingenious idea as it cuts down the number of keys required on the keyboard. They could have taken this idea a bit further. We really only need 7 keys to support up to 128 virtual keys when used in a chord. It would be great for portable devices especially.

[@goldenappel]

I've a weird fascination with old keyboards, especially ones with mystery keys that don't exist on modern systems, so this was right up my street. I recently bought a TheC64 full-size model and muscle memory from 30+ years ago kicked in when using Shift + 2 cursor keys.

[@josuelservin]

My favorite mystery key in this episode has to be the "Beg" on the AT&T Unix system at 14:18

[@ForgottenMachines]

1:40 I instantly recognize that shot as the AT&T UNIX PC...great use vintage technology footage here! Do you have one of these hidden away somewhere??? Ah, you show the full machine in context at 14:16...looks like you shot these just 2 weeks ago at VCF East...nice work!

[@clayz1]

Works for me. You can easily move 4-direction game characters around and never miss a beat. I was aware of it too, wondering why they chose this for the Fujitsu keyboard. The right choice. Thanks for the upload.