AIRBRAKES 101: 10 levels of TRAIN BRAKE understanding!

[@jackpeterson6540]

Engineer Ralph Harty had the distinction of two major derailments with the same train on the Brooten Line in the 70's. (Superior, WI to Glenwood, MN, 200 miles total..) I believe this was what encouraged the rail defect use on that line. They ran the rail detector over the Brooten Line (Moose Lake, MN to Brooten, MN portion of the line. 80 pound rail.) the rail from Moose Lake to Brooten averaged twenty-two defect to the mile. This was back in the 1970's. They ran out of replacement rail and bought rail from the BN that had been ripped up on a branch line. Rail profile was almost the same, with the exception it was a quarter of an inch higher. That, along with the line not having seen a tamper in years was not entirely a pleasure to ride over. With all the low rail joints, rocking back and forth latterly, and the mismatched rail you needed to wedge yourself between the seat and the wall. Going over the rail joint your teeth would chatter if you didn't sit slack-jawed. The Roadmaster didn't want three axle locomotives on it either. Although I did have six three-axle 3,000 HP locomotives once with one hundred empty grain cars to Glenwood. There was a ten MPH speed restriction over the Kettle River. When the green flag was called out by the conductor I was at a whistle post for a crossing. Every time I advanced the throttle a notch, you could feel the train lurch ahead. All six units were on line. I was only able to get throttle six of eight notches when I went over the crossing at forty mph, track speed. Not bad for 10 to 40 in 1,320 feet with 100 cars. With all this bad rail the speed on the Brooten Line was dropped from 35 to 10mph from Moose Lake to Brooten, about one hundred thirty five miles, with a whole slew of slow orders of 5mph. Twenty-eight of them at five mph. I would line the slow orders up on a clipboard I brought with and tear them off as I exited each one. Trains were usually 120 cars both ways at that time. It took two days to get to Glenwood and two days to get back. The halfway layover was Onamia, MN. Setting the train brakes in some of these slow orders going East with loaded grain hopper to maintain five mph was down right tempting fate to keep the train in one piece with sixteen thousand plus ton trains. This is where I became creative with applications. On the engines with 26L with maintaining features I would ride the hump from the six pound den-tent. (This first hump from the running position is called the six pound notch). I didn't look at it, I would use my index finger to tell where it was at. This would be about a eight to nine pound reduction with a 90 pound train line. After exhaust ended I would release it counting seconds in my mind (One - one thousandth, two - one thousandth, etc.) and then resetting to the same amount again. Doing this multiple times with wait times between applications and additional seconds of release depending on speed, train length and track conditions. Soo Line ore cars had the old air brake equipment, the newer grain cars had an accelerated release if a ten pound or more application was made. What the accelerated release did was dump air from the emergency portion of the car air reservoir into the train line to propagate a faster release. Doing this set, release, and the set with ten or more pound applications was real tricky with the accelerated release, but it could be done. This kept the train stretched, even through shallow sags. I did this for twenty-four years and never tore a train apart. I even stretch braked ore trains this way when there was a 100 car limit. On longer ore trains I used forty retainers in the SD position (SD - Slow Direct) on the head end. Soo Line at that time did not have any engines with dynamic braking. I image when cabooses were still used the hind end crew appreciated it. One trip with a Superior Engineer deadheading in the caboose from Dresser to Superior remarked to the Conductor why the slack wasn't running in or out anymore, his reply “The Fireman is running the Engine now”. I rode many a caboose and knew what it was like with different Engineers. The worst stop while a Brakeman on the GN back in the sixties, was at Cohasset, MN. We had two hundred fifty empty forty foot box cars going West, and the speed was about twelve to fifteen miles per hour when a piece of scrap metal laying between the rails parted the air hoses between the engines. I was in the cupola at the time. Stop was about instant with the brakes in emergency at the head end first with the slack running in before the train line dynamited on the caboose. The four total caboose end windows shattered (two on each end), the back door, which opened inward, tore the lock hasp off, and was open, the coal stove was ripped off the floor with stove pipe flying all over, the large batteries in the cabinet went through the interior wall and the caboose being of wood construction, all the dust in the cracks was airborne with viability down to about five feet. Luckily I was partly braced, but did end up in the seat in front of me, uninjured. On engines with 24rl or 6blc brake equipment using the feed valve or riding the release hump to maintain brake pipe pressure is what I used. Riding the release was not fully in release position choking off the air supply enough so as to maintain the brake pipe pressure at the pressure set during the application, this was the trickiest of procedures!!! The Soo 24rl valves didn't have the optional maintaining feature. (I believe these were repurposed off steam engines). On 26L Brake Valves when making applications it was actually referencing to a 100 cubic inch chamber in the brake valve itself. Sometimes you would get one that leaked down. That meant that the train line reduced also. I would watch for this during air tests. On long downgrades this was a problem. That's when you would use the feed valve. You would make the application, and when it equalized, you cut the brake valve out, moved the handle to running position, backed the feed valve off to match the current brake pipe pressure, then cut the valve back in. I don't think the railroad mechanical department thought too much of that procedure, although I did try dumping the air with the valve cut out and it did work on that one engine I tried it on. A 26L brake valve set for 90 psi train line equalizes at a 26 pound reduction, hence the name 26. Set for 75 psi it equalizes at about 21-22 psi reduction. 6Blc valves had a main reservoir pressure to the brake pipe position to the left of the running position. You had to be careful not to overcharge the brake pipe. If you did, brakes would stick on. This was a good way to have a accelerated release on the old air brake systems that didn't have the accelerated release built in. And NO, I never tore a train apart doing this during my twenty-four year career. Jack Peterson hogheaddotnet

[@Hyce777]

Cheers Jack, I'd love to get a beer with ya and hear these stories in person. You can tell you did the thing for real, and you're proud of it. Thanks for the comment, and the stories :D

[@77thTrombone]

That's a freaking novel, hoss! Not sure if it's adventure or horror, though. The first part had me groaning aloud, and the caboose part - Good Lord! Interesting driving with a sustained min service application. That's nominally a 10# drop to just set the shoes, as you say. Makes good sense, and somehow you came up with that as a fireman?!?! That's some savvy. Dynamic braking wouldn't have helped a bit unless you had DP in the back to mirror the lead DB. It might've saved some shoe wear. Gotta get to work now. I'll read the rest of your nail-biter later!

[@77thTrombone]

Ok: I read further: I _think_ 24 RLs are vintage 1920s, + or -, probably -. That whole operation is starting to sound like Johnny Cash's Cadillac. Seems like you made the best of it, which is great credit to you.

[@Hyce777]

@Metra 212 Productions it depends on the railroad and their feed valve settings. We run at 70 at the museum. Some passenger is not 110. Yes for most larger ops you are correct these days it's 90 and 110 but that's not a hard and fast rule.

Yea i do the same on my H.o gauge train 🤓

[@Tristan_S346]

I think your style of drawing it out, back of the napkin so to speak, lends itself well to getting people with no prior knowledge to understand what you’re talking about! It’s a great introduction to a very important concept, thank you so much for making these videos! 😁

[@tissuepaper9962]

These drawings are masterpieces compared to some of my professors, lmao. He's doing just fine, I agree.

[@DieselHeat1]

I really appreciate these videos Mark. I’m a heavy equipment mechanic and Diesel engine specialist, I’m used to knowing how things work, I’ve always wondered the smaller inner workings of steam locos and trains in general. Thank you sir. Keep up the good work!

[@Hyce777]

Very cool! I am glad that you enjoy these. I will probably be doing a diesel locomotive one soon enough :)

[@bobsmith2637]

While freight car control valves are not designed to partially release there are a couple ways to trick them into making a lighter brake application, or what feels like a less than minimum application across the train. 1. If you have a relatively short train and have made a moderate to heavy brake application, release it and then make the same application again right away. If you time it right everything will settle out with the car control valves in the lap position once again before the brake cylinders finished exhausting, leaving you with a lighter brake application. But this is quite tricky, it requires a lot of practice to get right, and does not work as well on long trains where the head end cars may have completely released well before those on the tail end. 2. If you want a very light brake application, take a minimum and let it set, release it, and then take a minimum again when the flow drops below 40 CFM. Making a very light brake pipe reduction before the train is fully charged will have the effect of setting the brakes on some cars and not on others. It is important to note that doing this will create 'stickers' (cars that won't release normally), so when you are done with this brake you will have to 'clean it up' by making a heavy brake application and letting it set completely before releasing it (you need at least a 10 PSI rise to reliably get rid of stickers). We have a number of grades in the 0.5% to 1.2% range where dynamic braking alone won't hold the train, but a full minimum application is too much. 3. This is a variation on 2, if you want a really light brake you can take a minimum and then release it before it finished exhausting, this deliberately creates stickers so once again you'll have to 'clean it up' once you no longer need the brake. In general these sort of strategies are called "Cycle Braking", and they take a fair amount of practice to get used to and get right. It is important to not abuse them, if you cycle brake too many times you can "pee away your air", and at worst you could reduce the brake pipe pressure to the the point where 'soaking it' will no longer propagate the emergency braking signal. You need at least 45 PSI in the brake pipe for this, and we are supposed to put it in emergency if the brake pipe gets down to 50, regardless of how we got to that unenviable position.

[@Hyce777]

Cheers Bob, this is a brilliant comment. I've done #1 several times when we've had a particularly leaky train (gotta love historic equipment in the winter) but never had the chance to try the others. I also didn't 100% understand how it worked. Cheers for the explanation, and the other examples.

[@lexx555]

As a Driver (Engineer) here in Australia I found your explanation fascinating for the different terminology you use there. Apart from the obvious metric measurements of air instead of imperial, we use different terms for what is essentially the same equipment. We use all three methods of braking here you described. All three are referred to as cheating but completely necessary on certain trains.

[@Hyce777]

@@lexx555 the little terminology differences are some of my favorite things... We do the same things, speak the same language, but it feels all wrong... Lol!

[@lexx555]

@@Hyce777 I know! Its even more strange considering that most of the locomotive components and wagon (freight car) braking equipment we use is from the USA (GE, EMD, Wabtec etc). By the way great video mate.

[@pacificcoastpiper3949]

@@Hyce777 what’s your favourite locomotive that you have run IRL

[@DavidVanmeterDutch]

The engineering, complexity and intelligence of rail design and use is hard to comprehend. The deeper you look, the deeper it gets. Thank you for all of these videos! Any topic involved in railroads is a great idea for content like this!!

[@slowpoke96Z28]

It's all refining over decades and decades of learned lessons. Lessons usually learned the hard way (damage to either property or people).

[@burlingtoniowarailfanhomeo8368]

It's nice to see another narrow gauge railroader tell people how all of these things work as a teenager who volunteers at a narrow gauge railroad this is very helpful for me learning stuff that I don't know especially when I get to become a fireman or an engineer because I'm only 6 years away from getting my degree and if you're wondering what the narrow gauge railroad is it's Midwest Central railroad

[@jonhunt5408]

Finally. Someone who can explain how exactly the air system applies the brakes through a single hose by a reduction of pressure without springs. Tyvm.

[@paulw.woodring7304]

I'm not going to go through nearly 300 comments to see what all was mentioned. I was a CSX engineer for eight years nearly 14 years ago and went through engine school in 2000 when it was in Cumberland, MD. Air brakes and air brake theory at that time was an entire WEEK of the month of classroom instruction. That is how important this is. He didn't even get into the difference between passenger brakes and freight brakes. Passenger air allows for a gradual release of the air, while freight air is either applied or fully released. Then there is "blended" braking used by Amtrak and commuter authorities on modern locomotives, which combines air and dynamic braking. I never used it, so I can't explain it, but it's essentially single-handle braking that seamlessly uses both air and dynamic brakes in the optimal combination for conditions. Another aspect of air brakes and how they work is the difference between the flow rates of normal or "service" air flow and emergency air flow. The brake valves on the cars are designed to know how fast the air is flowing past them and use that to decide when to apply the emergency brakes. Service air flows at about 400 ft./sec. and emergency air flows at about 900 ft./sec. (Which means on a 10,000 ft. train there would be over a 10 second delay between the front and the rear cars in putting the consist into emergency, which could cause a derailment. One reason why "The Big Hole" is something not to be used carelessly. Modern End of Train devices can be triggered to dump their air valve, so most engineers are taught to do that at the same time they hit the "Oh, Sh*t" handle.) So, say the conductor is adding a cut of cars to a train and turning the air into the cars and moves the angle cock a little too fast and the air from the cars already in the train starts flowing faster than normal into the new cars, the brakes might think they are supposed to go into emergency and dump. Common rookie conductor mistake. Also, the small air reservoirs on each car are divided into two sections, a service air and an emergency air section, which is how the emergency air gets applied to the brakes throughout the train so fast. Everything is charged from the main brake pipe hose. Freight air is 90 psi, passenger air is 110 psi, switching air is 80 psi, and ground air (which is a very important thing when it comes to brake tests) is 70 psi. The reason that ground air and switching air are lower is so when the cars are added to a train they will match the "gradient" of the air brake profile of the rest of the train. Most trains of any length do not maintain 90 psi over their entire length. CSX rules allowed for a 15 lb. difference in pressure between the front and rear to pass an air brake test, meaning you could pass the test with a reading of 75 psi on the rear with a full release on the head end. Bear in mind that this is also affected by things like outside air temperature. The colder the weather, the harder it is to maintain train line pressure over the length of a long train. I don't know how the Class Is are able to operate 15,000 ft. trains in January in the North, especially if there isn't a DPU either in the middle or on the rear of the train to add air pressure? I had enough trouble sometimes with trains under 10,000 ft. in Winter. Some mainline excursion steam locomotives do use 26L freight brakes. I know for sure that Nickel Plate 765 does and the Ohio Central steam locomotives that ran regular excursion service (1293 and 6325) did. I believe N&W 611 might also. I've been told that UP 844 and 4014 use older types of steam locomotive brakes. Most tourist railroads use freight air and not passenger air setups, so no gradual release.

[@Hyce777]

Man, the amount of brilliant comments coming in lately on this video from folks like yourself is fantastic. Great info in here, some of which i knew, some of which i didn't. Appreciate your insight and adds! Yeah, there's a reason real airbrake classes are so long. Hopefully with your knowledge you agree that this was an OK first look for folks who don't know it at all! Haha.

[@paulw.woodring7304]

@@Hyce777 Yeah, most fans really don't care about the detail. I put together a program on railroad operating practices for fans at what I thought was a basic level and it pretty much was a snoozer. So, your attempt is probably about right for most fans. The most important things any engineer has to know are 1) the grades of whatever territory they are operating over, and 2) how to safely stop whatever size and weight of train they are operating. The thing that surprised me most about becoming an engineer was how different the reality of operating is from what a fan thinks it is. And that is too long an explanation for here.

[@fiddlyphuk6414]

I never even thought of air temperature and the resulting effect on air density as being another bug-a-boo in train brake operation. Thanks for the real-world info.

[@paulw.woodring7304]

@@fiddlyphuk6414 Not only that, but when you compress air you heat it and wring the moisture out of it as it cools back down. Which is why the pipes from the compressor to the main reservoir curve around - to cool the newly compressed air. It's also why there are "spitter" valves on the air systems of locomotives, to continuously drain the moisture from the tanks. Some railroads, like CSX, also use air dryers that kind of look like small air compressors on the train line to further dry out the air before it goes back through the train. Moisture in the air line can freeze the brake line in the winter and either cause damage or prevent the brakes from working properly. In the "old days" a lot of conductors used to carry gas dryer with them, which is alcohol-based, and separates out water when poured into the brake line at a hose, but it also will ruin rubber brake hoses and gaskets over time, so the company doesn't want them to do that.

[@timprussell]

Before DPU became common I know the Canadian class 1s had compressor cars to help maintain the pressure in winter. I've never seen a good description of how they would work but I assume it would been limited to how much air it could add to the system all at once and have a valve similar to what was on the cars with the difference being when the air pipe was being charged or held it would try to hold pressure. A reduction would stop the maintaining process until a release/charge was sensed. Anyone have info on those?

[@SlaggyJoe]

I watched your first "10 levels" video and have to say this one was equally informative. Thank you for making this, I learned a significant amount.

[@TrainShortsCH]

Thank you for this Video, I learned quite a few things.

[@stephenrich3029]

Feel like I’m getting trained for an actual job by listening to Hyce.

[@TheOneTrueDragonKing]

These 101 videos will be superb in helping me in my future job as train crew for the UP. We all start as brakemen in the train crew trade, so this primer will be highly useful for that.

[@ericaasen4512]

This is incredibly informative and explained perfectly. Thank you for this video and btw, the drawings were spot on.

[@coniow]

Thank you for posting this. I know nothing about train braking systems, so am the "Target Audience" 🙂 The thing that gets me is how you get a feel for how much brake force to use: With a passenger train, it my be full of people, or nearly empty: That must make a significant difference? Then the freight train that goes on for ever. . . . .

[@Hyce777]

If you've got a fully loaded passenger train in the narrow gauge world (40-50 people per car adds up to something that's a decent portion of the car's weight), you do notice the load. I doubt that's the case in standard gauge with much heavier cars. All about proportions. As far as braking - you typically have a rough idea of what you need, and then make adjustments. "Going down a 2% grade starting soon, I've got this much train, OK start with a 10 PSI reduction and edit from there" kind of thing.

[@ajaxengineco]

The fact we made it through this video without the name 'Westinghouse' being said is quite fantastic to me!

[@Hyce777]

Was trying to give an overall context, and not muddy things of brands... westinghouse, new york airbrake, wabco, wabtec... lol

[@Robotechnology101]

Except that it was Westinghouse who first invented the concept of the train airbrake. Not sure where there is a problem with that. Yes maybe there are other companies now that have since improved upon his original designs but the functionality of the design still originates with him.

[@Hyce777]

@@Robotechnology101 That's fair, I certainly could have mentioned them in that context, but I was trying to just keep it to a functional base-level overview. Certainly would've been a good nod, but I don't think necessary.

[@williamclarke4510]

This is the same man who had Westinghouse Electric.He was a rival of Edison.There is an interesting DVD about Westinghouse.

[@kellingc]

I like what you did with the steam, and I like what you did here. I can now play on train sim and understand better what I'm doing.

[@656hookemhorns]

Very informative, I never knew the air brakes on a train was that complicated even with 2 lifelong railroad men in the family. I am a trucker and honestly believe that we have the simpler, more reliable and better air brake system.

[@Hyce777]

Certainly so! It's a lot easier to have a better system when you're talking a trailer or a few vs. several hundred, haha. Cheers :)

[@nicholaswhitfield9341]

The basic trouble with train air brakes is railcars need to be able to roll when not hooked up to air, so they can't just have a "brakes are ALWAYS applied without air pressure" system.

[@LanilMarasinghe]

This is very informative. Actually I was curious how train breaks works while playing Train Simulator. Thanks

[@Pa168777]

Very well explained! I Agree, these videos should be required training for both Conductors and Engineers just coming into service. Great job!

[@haxorouse3265]

one nice thing about vacuum though is that, if you have no vacuum, all your brakes are on, if you have no air, and no charge in the Aux res'... then you have no brakes and you've got a runaway

[@LMR78]

Great just great video! Im loving these types of videos!

[@KarolOfGutovo]

regarding L8... I thought it was just reservoir pressure pushing the brake shoe towards the wheel and pipe pressure+ small spring pushing it away, so that at equal pressures it doesn't apply and when imbalance comes in it gets pushed in.

[@Zeroni82]

airbrake here are indirect passive safety with pushing spring on piston ,so you get to 5 bar to brake even and release brake, if pressure is lost in system spring works and you are braking hard... also you can increase pressure to use smooth -low to hard brake -from 5 up to 10 bar. advantage you dont need to pump air reservoir

[@johnstokes2246]

I have ridden the Coumbres and Toultec several times. A fun trip including a buffet lunch. Try it, you will have a blast.

[@Hyce777]

It's the one to do!

[@BandanRRChannel]

That was a great video, and I learned a lot! A couple other comments, one of which might be for air brakes 102: 1. On the Sumpter Valley, the brake stand is 19 is a bit different regarding the independent. To bail off the independent, you set the handle to lap (or maybe running? I've been out of the cab for a bit), and then press down. This bails off the locomotive brakes while keeping the automatic set up. It's kind of the opposite of the "engine hold" you described; we had a separate valve for engine brakes. 2. I recall reading that the brake cylinder is smaller than the reservoir on the cars, about 2.5 times smaller, so a reduction in the brake pipe results in a larger application than shown on the gauge. Example: 5lb reduction in pipe and reservoir->squeezes into cylinder and is further compressed by size-> 12.5lbs on brakes. Again, a little rusty on that, but it makes sense with P1V1 = P2V2. 3. For air brakes 102: can you do some research on Electronically Controlled Pneumatic Brakes (ECP)? Where there's an electric signal line run to each car so they all apply brakes at the same time instead of going at the rate of air flow, which on long trains takes a while. That time delay is also why distributed power can help with braking, since the air "signal" comes from multiple locations at once. Loved the video, excited for the next one!

[@Hyce777]

Cheers! Yeah, sounds like the 19 has the more modern 26 style independent to press down to bail. I can't remember the exact variety of 6ET that is but it's one of the more modern styles. 2. You're totally right, that was "glossed over" by me saying "it's not the exact amount based on volume" it felt like getting in that much detail would confuse those who don't know anything about this stuff. For sure a 102 topic. 3. I learned a bit about those at BNSF! Very cool, very weird... Certainly worth talking about! Good idea. I actually haven't thought about those in years. More research to go. Thanks for the comment!

[@jsunflyguy]

I run commuter trains with ECP. We have two 36pt MU jumpers (which should give away which railroad it is). The signal goes through these jumpers and actuates an applied magnet valve in each car. The carsbare connected via brake pipe but will make their own reduction as well as lowering the brake pipe pressure locally. The diesels actually have a shorter stopping distance than our electric trains. The added benefit is we also have a 'hold' position which means we can keep the brake cylinders applied and recharge the brake pipe for a quick release a departure time. The train can be converted to a pneumatic system, we had to do this when we borrowed non-ecp cars. Unfortunately for all the modernity, the brakes were still non-selflapping.

[@CR3271]

Great recap! The only thing I would state differently was at 10:00... A 10psi reduction does not put 10psi in the brake cylinder. The reservoir and cylinder are sized such that the pressure added to the cylinder is ~2.5x the pipe/reservoir reduction. So 10psi reduction = ~25psi applied. Once your pipe pressure drops to 64-65psi (on a 90psi system) the pipe, the reservoirs, and the cylinders are all at the same pressure. It's physically impossible to put any more air into the cylinders. If you need more brakes at that point, you've got a potential runaway train.

[@Hyce777]

Oh really? Huh, I guess that's right because you can't get the expansion if it's already at that pressure, huh. Interesting, I hadn't thought about that before. Thanks for the comment! Here I was thinking that the exact pressure being higher in the BC's was not worth a specific mention for the sake of an overview...

[@advorak8529]

@@Hyce777 Same thing with “cannot get a higher pressure than the steam pressure - of course you can get a higher (or lower) pressure if you use differently sized cylinders for the steam and air side. The drawback of course is that you need 2 separate cylinders for air and steam, which means larger and more mass, instead of a single cylinder with one side steam compressing the air and when the steam is released, a spring pushes the cylinder back to allow new air in through check valves. And a trivial way to have a comparing valve and cylinder setup would be the brake air pipe pushing on the release side of the braking cylinder while the reservoir presses on the brake side, possibly with some spring or similar to make sure the brake is released when both sides are at equilibrium. If you want to work with pressure change rate, one idea is a cylinder that is connected on both ends to the brake pipe, one normally, one via a small hole that takes some time to equalise. If the pressure in the brake pipe drops fast, the small orifice side will have a higher pressure and push a piston in the cylinder away, and when the pipe is re-pressurised, the opposite is true. Add a system that gently pushes the cylinder back to the centre and presto. If you detect a rapid pressure drop, use the piston to, say, change a 3 way valve from connecting the brake pipe to brake cylinder release side to isolating the brake pipe and vent the release side to open air. Undo once the pressure drop becomes slower or the pressure actually rises. No idea if they do that that way, but it probably is a simple, mechanical way to do it without much “cleverness” needed.

[@brianargo4595]

Can we get a short video on how auto disconnecting gladhands with? Coming from a diesel tech/tractor trailer mechanic, the gladhands we use would absolutely not automatically separate without damage.

[@themidnightbanshee5927]

I've always wondered how this and that worked here are my answers Also I'm quite fond of designing things if it's simple machine parts I can easily model them in Catia And another thing vacum isn't stronger than pressure as you do have limited amount of air you can displace, but for pressure well you can just stack it on till the pipes burst

[@Hyce777]

Precisely :)

[@DieselHeat1]

Yup, once you hit about 30 inch pounds of vacuum that’s about it. A full vacuum is all you can do

[@CMDRSweeper]

Well you could use a vacuum and get even more force out of it, however for that you have to increase the atmospheric pressure that you relate the vacuum to. In practice if you were using vacuum, you would have to encase the vacuum parts with a pressurized system, it would work, but at that point it is better to go with pressure :D

[@kleetus92]

@@CMDRSweeper Actually, no. In a vacuum system if you want more application force, you make the diagram bigger. Vacuum isn't measured in inch pounds... it's inches of mercury in a column... and this gets to the next major problem with vacuum... it's not constant. At sea level, atmospheric pressure is 14.7 PSI. The further in elevation you go, the less pressure you have. (this is why it takes longer to cook food in colorado than it does in miami... the water might be boiling, but instead of it being 212 degrees in the pot to boil the water, it's only like 186 in colorado because the pressure is less and the water boils easier. Fun fact you can boil water at room temperature if you put it in a vacuum chamber.) This is the difference between PSI and PSIG. A gauge that reads vacuum to some pressure level is (like a vacuum boost gauge in a car) is at zero, is really saying 14.7 psi at normal... if you took it into outer space, it would read 30 inch of mercury... Ok, going off the beam here... So you have a train with vacuum brakes that starts at sea level, you have maximum braking force when you call for brake application. As you go up in elevation, the brake effectiveness gets less and less... because your atmospheric pressure becomes less and less. reservoir

[@Rio_Grande_Foamer]

Maybe do a video on whistle signals? Idk, love your videos though, keep up the great work!

[@ronaldpiper4812]

I love this channel. What is the jerk. It is fast but is moving

[@BassandoForte]

The Vacuum on Vacuum brakes are used to keep the breaks off - not on... This way you have an automatic fail-safe as if any air gets into the system the brakes snap on - Any split in the Vacuum across the train will hold the brakes on automatically....👍

[@Hyce777]

ah, neat. Didn't know that about the vacuum brakes

[@ajaxengineco]

Expect for the old Eames vacuum brake, the old-fashioned 'simple' type. Works backwards - no vacuum = brake off. Caused a major disaster at Armagh, 1889, and, less famously, a collision at Carlisle in 1890 - the brakes in the Carlisle incident were able to be switched between simple and automatic vacuum. The driver became mixed up and released it when he thought he was putting it on.

[@srfurley]

@@Hyce777 Vacuum brakes are actually applied by air pressure, the pressure of the atmosphere. The locomotive draws air out of the train air pipe which also draws it out of the vacuum brake cylinders, both below and above the piston. When air is allowed back into the pipe it also goes into the brake cylinders but only below the pistons, a valve closes preventing the air getting above the pistons. The pressure of the air below the pistons causes the pistons to rise in the cylinders thus applying the brakes. The vacuum above the pistons is retained, thus meaning that the brake cannot be exhausted by repeated applications and releases. Another advantage is that no air pump is required. Also, unlike early air brakes graduated release of the vacuum brake was possible; it was not necessary to completely release the brake before it could be re-applied. The main disadvantages are that it is slower to act, and the brake cylinders are very large and heavy. Vacuum brakes require more frequent adjustment than air brakes.

[@patricksheary2219]

Excellent so many thanks for sharing your expert knowledge. I’m really enjoying your videos-recently discovered them. You’ve got an eager student!

[@Hyce777]

Cheers Patrick!

[@cmrs521]

Yes.. i needed this also I'll prolly post my questions on this vid once I finish watching

[@Gerry15]

There is an interesting point on the "they aren't like trucks brakes" it's absolutely true, but in case of a damage on one of the tubes between the truck and the trailer there is a device that makes the system act kinda like the train system with a single pipe always in pressure except when you're braking. (It's called "Servodeviatore modulato" in Italian, I don't find anywhere how it is called in English, I'm sorry) I'll explain what it does but first I'll briefly explain truck braking and various safety features for people that don't know it. Ok, basically if you have watched the video like the independent brake of the train the truck uses a tank of compressed air to brake with positive pressure, for safety you have at least three separate circuit, one for the anterior axle, one for the posterior and one for hand brake and trailer. The brake pedal is basically as two separate self-lapping commands, one for the anterior and one for the posterior axle, granting that if one line would break the other one would work. (It's not important for our story but for added safety the hand brake is applied without pressure and is the added pressure that releases it, so it could always be applied and if its line broke it would simply auto apply) Then we reach the trailer, the trailer basically has a tank of air that is filled with a pipe always in pressure from the truck and another pipe that with positive pressure commands how much brake to apply. To grant the safety of the trailer if it ever lost the connection from the truck if the pipe that should always be in pressure would loose it, the trailer would apply the automatic brake. But what if the trailer would stay attached to the truck but only the other pipe would break? At that point the trailer, since that pipe uses positive pressure to command a brake usage, wouldn't be able to tell if the line was broken or if simply wasn't supposed to use the brakes, making the stop of the truck with only his brakes a lot harder. The "Servodeviatore modulato" comes to the rescue, basically it is on board of the truck and it's connected to a braking line of an axle and the braking command going to the trailer, if the braking command it's broken it would dump air in the atmosphere and so the device would detect a lower pressure in it and dump in atmosphere the air going to the pipe always in pressure to stop the trailer. But in some way it is even more similar than this, because this would only apply full brakes to the trailer whenever you'll apply any brake to the truck, but in fact the "Servodeviatore modulato" doesn't sump completely the pipe in atmosphere, it limits its pressure according to how much brake is applied, granting a variable braking force, using only one pipe line, normally in pressure and with lower pressure to apply brakes. I hope whoever read all of this liked it.

[@Hyce777]

Thanks for the comment, makes sense to me :)

[@Gerry15]

@@Hyce777 I love your videos hyce, I'm happy you liked this small detail on truck brakes

[@redwingdetroit9671]

Shoot this is good stuff ive got to go back a few times to take it in..excellent presentation. Hope you can explain how throttles are co ordinated when more than one locomotive. Subbing

[@GeorgeGeorge-yb2sz]

It would have been much better if you elaborated on the 26C brake valve system. It is a more modern system with many features that the earlier valves didn't have. The methods of using all of the braking systems on a train would also be interesting. On long grades the dynamic brake is used in conjunction with the air brakes to maintain the speed on a down grade by setting the air to hold the train and controlling the speed with the dynamic brake. I would think a discussion about controlling a train with brakes would be more interesting than an explanation of a out of date braking system, but maybe that is just me? The napkin method was confusing for me and I passed my air brakes section of the SP simulator school with an A+ when I promoted to engineer.

[@Hyce777]

That's all fair, most of my viewership knows I know and run the antiquated stuff- so, I explained what I knew best, and what seemed most interesting to my viewers. I think train handling in general could be a whole separate topic, and could get into some of the things you mentioned. Thanks for the comment.

[@urvhalt]

Regarding the airpump: you can have different pressures by using different piston-areas. There is actually such a standard component used in the industry, to raise pressure.

[@Hyce777]

Yup, goofed on that one. They just did it that way for steam engines to keep the flow high enough.

[@urvhalt]

.. P=F/A the force f is common for both cylinders in the pump. If A is kept different, P gets different.

[@Hyce777]

@@urvhalt Yup, duh, basic physics, right? Yeah, I let my "field knowledge" get in the way of my engineering brain on that one. Thanks for the comment!

[@tiarnelouise]

Could you make a video on Trains that run ECP air brakes and have the westinghouse Triple Valve?

[@paulbowler2760]

What you did not mention, nor explain, is that the reduction in air pressure in the train pipe can only travel along the train pipe , from the locomotive back along the train, at the speed of sound, which is 1100 ft/sec. This means that if your train is a mile long - quite common these days, it will be 5 seconds after the engineer moves the handle that the brakes on the rear car begin to operate! I understand that trials were held with an additional electrical control system, whereby when the engineer moved the handle an electrical signal was sent to every car in the train simultaneously, and all the brakes were applied at the same time. This resulted in better - faster - braking and elimination of bunching and stretching. Has this been incorporated in PTC?

[@PaulCyclist]

When describing the types of “levels”, is this a reference just to partition your 101 discussion or is that actually what the Railroad industry has standardized on to describe what you showed for these different types?

[@Hyce777]

Absolutely made up by me to categorize things.

[@Ididerus]

Makes sense not to have spring breaks. Raill cars need to move when unhooked and trailers do not

[@cannadineboxill-harris2983]

I wanted to know why don’t dig a tunnel and do an extension for the main line Train so they extend the new abandoned underground stations. Why couldn’t they use the part D78 Stock train doors on the sides and also restructure the front face of the A60 and A62 stock that includes the class 313, class 314 and class 315 remix and make them all together and also redesign them an overhead line and also make them into six cars per units and also having three Accessible Toilets on that six cars per units A60 and A62 stock trains and also convert the A60 and A62 stock trains into a Scania N112, Volvo TD102KF, Volvo B10M, Gardner 6LXC, Gardner 6LXB and Gardner 8LXB Diesel Engines and also put the Loud 7-Speed Voith Gearboxes even Loud 8-Speed Leyland Hydra cyclic Gearboxes in the A60 and A62 stock, class 313, class 314, and class 315 and also modernise the A60 and A62 stock and make it into an 11 car per unit so it could have fewer doors, more tables, computers and mobile phone chargers? A Stock Train and also having 8 DisaAccessiblelets on those A stock trains. why couldn’t we refurbish and modernise the waterloo and city line Triple-Track train tunnel and make it bigger and extend it to bank station, making it into a Triple-Track Railway Line so those 4 European countries such as Germany, Italy, Poland And Sweden to convert the waterloo and city line Triple-Track Train tunnel into a High-Speed train? The Third Euro tunnel Triple-Track Train line to make it 11 times better for passengers so they could go from A to B. then put the modernised 11 car per unit A Stock and put them on a bigger modernised waterloo and city line Triple-Track train tunnel so it could go to bank station to those 4 European countries such as Germany, Italy, Poland And Sweden. The modernised refurbished 11 cars per unit A stock could be a High Speed The Third Triple-Track Euro Tunnel Train So it is promising and 37 times a lot more possible to do this kind of project that is OK for London Germany, Italy, Poland And Sweden. Oh by the way, could they also tunnel the Triple-Track Railway Line so it will stop from Buckinghamshire, Hertfordshire and Essex so that the Passengers will go to Germany, Italy, Poland and Sweden and also extend the Triple-Track Railway Line from Bank to Buckinghamshire, Hertfordshire and Essex Stations so that more people from there could go to Germany, Italy, Poland And Sweden Easily. Why couldn't they extend the Piccadilly line and also build a brand-new underground train station so it could go even further right up to Clapton, Wood Street and also make another brand new tunnel train station in Chingford and could they extend the DLR? All of the classes 150, 155, 154, 117, 114, 105, and 106, will be replaced by all of the Scania N112, Volvo TD102KF, Volvo B10M, Gardner 6LXB, Gardner 6LXC and Gardner 8LXB Diesel Six carriages three accessible toilets are air conditioning trains including Highams Park for extended roots which is the Piccadilly line and the DLR trains. Could you also convert all of the 1973 stock trains into an air-conditioned maximum speed 78 km/hours (48 MPH) re-refurbished and make it into a 8 cars per unit if that will be alright, and also extend all of the Piccadilly train stations to create more space for all of the extended 8 car per unit 1973 stock air condition trains and can you also build another Mayflower and Tornado Steam Locomotive Companies and they can order Every 17 Octagon and Hexagon shape LNER diagram unique minor no.13 and unique small no.11 Boilers from those Countries such as Greece, Italy, Poland, and Sweden, can they make Mayflower and Tornado Steam Locomotive speeds by up to 117MPH so you can try and test it on the Original Mainline so it will be much more safer for the Passengers to enjoy the 117MPH speed Limit only for HS2 and Channel Tunnel mainline services, if they needed 16 Carriages Per units can they use those class 55’s, class 44’s, class 40’s and class 43HST Diesel Locomotive’s right at the Back of those 16 Carriages Per Units so they can take over at the Back to let those Mayflower and Tornado Steam Locomotive’s have a rest for those fascinating Journeys Please!!!!!! oh, can you make all of those Coal Boxes’ 16 Tonnes for all of the 117MPH Mayflower and Tornado Steam Locomotive’s so the Companies will Understand us, passengers!! so please make sure that the Builders can do as they are Told!! And please do something about these very important Professional ideas Please Prime Minister of England, Prime Minister of Sweden, Prime Minister of Germany, Prime Minister of Italy, Prime Minister of Poland and that Includes the Mayor of London.

[@jaysonlima7196]

So Rio Grande's signal for passing control of the brakes (2 shorts and a long) is the same as a fog signal for a vessel aground, interesting lol

[@Jared_Smith_99]

Also with vacuum brakes, higher altitudes would mess with the system as you are loosing atmospheric pressure

[@Jared_Smith_99]

At least I think

[@Hyce777]

Would reduce the maximum working "pressure" you'd get, I'd wager, but I am not sure.

[@jimmydesouza4375]

Why does automatic air work that way instead of using springs? Spring breaks have the exact same function only you don’t have to rely on extra air piping. What is the advantage?

[@cacanovotny]

Great video as the previous 10 levels, but I have to disagee with your description that by the compressor yu can get only the same air pressure (ignoring losses). Perhaps such setup makes no sense in practice, or is simply never used, but you can have compressor where the driving piston has larger diameter than the driven piston, therefore giving you pressure advantage at the cost of flow rate.

[@Hyce777]

That's fair - I never really applied my P1V1T2 = P2V2T1 equations to these compressors :P. I imagine you -could- in the right world, but in practice you can't on any steam locomotive I've been around, despite that setup being part of it. You usually only get as good as -maybe- 20 PSI less than steam pressure. Usually it's more like 30-40 PSI different.

[@kleetus92]

@@Hyce777 I think *think* this has more to do with the maximum pressure they really want in the main reservoir more than anything else... because locomotives with 200, 250, 300 PSI boiler pressures never had main reservoirs mover 150-160... What Jan said is correct, if then driven piston has half the surface area of the drive piston, you can get 2x the drive pressure... Case in point, we have a Haskel Pump on our SCBA cascade system on our rescue truck and with only 2-300 PSI on the air bottles, I can still charge tanks to 5000 PSI. It's slower than molasses in january, but it does work.

[@Hyce777]

@@kleetus92 Makes sense. I think I was conflating my experience with 346/20 (which have similar sized air piston to steam piston) only being able to make ~110-120 PSI MR when 491 with 175 PSI can hit ~140-150 despite the compound pump. Thanks for the discussion folks!

[@kielcarson6776]

Why do some locomotives allow you to cut the brakes in for freight or passenger service and whats the difference?

[@OldIronVideo]

Funny I'm watching this because the railroad I plan on working for only has steam breaks on 2 engines and the other 2 dont even have breaks at all! Neither do the coaches

[@cheryldawdy5962]

Avro Lancaster special brakes that doesn't catch on fire but uses compressor to provide pressure to the brakes works in a similar way to a bicycle car truck even train aircraft's uses brakes to slow down to stop safely in a similar way

[@kahu9546]

this is very helpful

[@marcdenton2996]

Actually, I like your sketches.

[@ronaldpiper4812]

So like trucks and loss or air used to let off brakes. All safety related.

[@frankhellman6879]

I can see the fog clearly now. 😶 😆

[@tlheart]

so simple stated, on trains, no air no stop. If all the air is released from the cars reservoir, then no brakes again, as there is nothing pushing against the brake piston. So hand brakes must still be used to hold cars in place not hooked into an air supply. Unlike trucks, where the springs put the brakes on, no air, solid brakes, no need for a separate brake control, when parked.

[@SternLX]

Yup, need Air to hold the brakes off the drums/disc's on an Air brake equipped Truck. No Air? You're not going anywhere. :)

[@Hyce777]

Yup! So, if you couple up to a cut of cars that have sat "off air" for a while, they will roll free if no handbrakes are tied.

[@geoffcrumblin9850]

Funny that anyone would find this topic interesting. I worked at Westinghouse Brake in Sydney, inventing, designing and modifying train braking systems.

[@Hyce777]

Plenty do! It's an interesting thing. Doesn't seem interesting when it's just work, though, right?

[@ninjadoge2006]

up next on 10 levels of understanding what is a train?

[@Hyce777]

Most likely Diesel locomotives :)

[@FerrousEquusEng]

Hyce, I think I have the visuals you're looking for, or at least, I'm in the process of creating them for another project. What's the best way to get a hold of you? I'm on the RO! Discord server (same user name) as well as here.

[@Hyce777]

I am "The Hyceler(tm)" on the RO! discord, feel free to shoot me a dm!

[@ronaldpiper4812]

If I am correct if you go and hand crank every car on or off also? Sounds like lots of friction to me. Lol

[@coloradostrong]

I will have to see if Hobo Shoestring concurs.

[@Hyce777]

I've seen his name a few times! I need to go check out his channel apparently.

[@JeffPeterson-u1y]

How do the air hoses connect and disconnect

[@CristiNeagu]

22:11 Got a bit excited there, didn't you? 😂

[@Hyce777]

me and paint.net sometimes don't get along. lol!

[@DarrylWMurphy]

That would refer to as a brake chamber , slack Adjuster

[@namelessone3339]

How do freight cars go over the hump when they pull apart?

[@Hyce777]

No air on them.

[@The_Evil_Monkey_93]

What about Locomotives and passenger cars that have modern ABS disc braking systems.

[@Hyce777]

Great question. I have no idea how those work. I'll see what I can dig up.

[@blackflagqwerty]

Can you do one on dynamic braking?

[@Hyce777]

Check the 10 levels of diesel locomotive video that just came out yesterday. It's a very brief overlook at dynamic braking in level 5, but for operational sake most of what you need to know.

[@_eisenbrecher_]

7:37 but why is it not like a semi truck? what is the advantage of this system? is it just another "because it's always been like this" thing? because you said yourself, that if the train stood for a long time, there would not be any pressure in the pipes, which means it wouldn't be able to brake. so in my eyes the semi truck cofiguration with the springs would be safer, right?

[@NBSV1]

Back in the olden days you might not need all the brakes on all the cars. Especially if a few of them had problems and leaked a lot of air. Plus with how many cars they may have keeping all the air to all the cars might be difficult even when working right. And, with all the switching the cars may go through having the brakes lock down anytime the car is disconnected could cause problems. But, the modern systems are different and a little closer to big truck brakes.

[@Zyo117]

Me, knowing how truck air brakes work and learning how train air brakes work: "What the FUCK"

[@wkd0]

Question for a Q&a will the walking get faster?? im constantly holding the shift and end up getting the steam menu up. i would prefer the walk be what the run speed is and the run speed to be actually alot fast as it is as maps huge and helps when deleting trees i did duct tape it at one point ha 😅

[@Hyce777]

We've done the walk to run speed change twice already... :P

[@wkd0]

@@Hyce777 no way well atm the run needs to be what the walk is then i think perfect because if the walk speed was the run speed how’d anything get done would have taken you years 😅 wait what year are you living in 😂 but yes still very slow can not use that walk constantly on the run and getting finger fatigue. Cant wait for the teleport option or one to find my train lost it a few times Fun thing to try place the vary gradient on top of your train and watch it fly 😂😂🤣 man its so fun the higher the gradient the further it flys i love things like that but would like to see where train is gone. Atm my hud has vanished so i have no idea if my train is out of fuel when just looking at it until i press F on it or if my breaks are on the carts i have reported these tho in community section for a fix. Hope your days been as fun 🤩

[@Hyce777]

@@wkd0 there's a hotkey to turn the hud on and off. by default it's X. Take a look.

[@wkd0]

@@Hyce777 when do i press x and is it just on its own or do i press fn too? As that moves the track

[@Hyce777]

@@wkd0 yeah that's the issue. Stupid default keybinds by us, that we still need to fix. I'd recommend re binding the HUD turn off.

[@pwhnckexstflajizdryvombqug9042]

When you apply the train brakes does it also apply the brake shoes on the locomotive, and if you have just a locomotive with no rolling stock, which brakes do what, and is the independent brake just as powerful as the train brake in that situation.

[@Hyce777]

For many kinds of airbrake, applying the train brakes does apply the locomotive. If you have no rolling stock, it will act the same. In that case, the independent brake is much better because you can apply it much more quickly. If you have a whole train, you have to make slow, small changes to make sure things are smooth - but with just an engine it's easier to make faster movements.

[@SpaceSoups]

I just did a physics investigation on brakes!

[@Hyce777]

Oh?

[@JamesPattersonGeepfan]

7:50, I mean..... some of us have spring applied brakes but uh...... we're what you'd call "unique" lol

[@Hyce777]

Get outta here with your cog railroad. Also, we need to do a video like this, with your cog railroad. Maybe get a basic "this is how it works kinda" and some images and then you can do the details. Unless you feel like being the paint-lad

[@JamesPattersonGeepfan]

@@Hyce777 We could, let me see what I can put together.

[@drbuttblast2387]

So if you pulled the handle to put it to 50% brake and then released it (on modern trains) does it start recharging the moment you release it?

[@RyanBreaker]

These videos should probably be required training material for everyone coming into operations at railroad museums, they're very well done at building a basic understanding of how the systems actually work in a way I haven't been able to find yet outside of being on the trains themselves.

[@JamesSmith-mv9fp]

WORLDWIDE TRAIN BRAKE SYSTEMS First principles of any railway train brake system is that it must be "Fail Safe". In other words if something goes wrong, such as the trains couplings break, both parts of the train MUST still be able to make an emergency stop. So must automatically apply on ALL vehicles, to bring both parts to a safe halt. Virtually all train brake systems world wide fall into two categories namely Vacuum or Air brake. Although many steam locomotives also had steam brakes for use SOLELY on the locomotive. (Used when a locomotive is moving by itself). BASIC VACUUM BRAKE SYSTEM. With Vacuum brakes the air is removed from the train brake pipe, by an ejector (sucking pump) to RELEASE the brakes. If the train breaks in two, then the pipe between those vehicles breaks and atmospheric air naturally rushes into the pipe, destroying the vacuum and automatically applying the brakes on all vehicles. In normal use the driver can graduate slowly the amount of air allowed into the pipe, to bring the train to a controlled and gentle halt. BASIC AIR BRAKE SYSTEM Basically a reversed vacuum system, whereby Pressurised air is needed to RELEASE the brakes, & provided by an air pump. If the train breaks in two then obviously the pressurised air rushes out, so applying the brakes on all vehicles. In normal use the driver can graduate the release of the air pressure slowly, so all the brake blocks on all vehicles begin gently rubbing on the wheels to bring the train to a nice smooth and gentle halt. LIMITATIONS OF THE SYSTEMS ABOVE. The Downside of both the Vacuum & Air brake systems as explained above. Is that in normal use, the Vacuum or Air pressure is controlled from the brake handle in the locomotive cab. So it takes time for the vacuum or air pressure to change, as the effect of this change has to pass along the whole of the train from front to rear. This slows down a trains ability to stop quickly. As a result of the DOWNSIDE of the above systems, certain alternatives are possible. The British Great Western Railway for example used a higher level of vacuum than the other railways of Britain, so allowing a somewhat quicker reaction by the trains brakes to the drivers use of the brake handle, and in addition "rapid reaction" release valves on each passenger vehicle. (This was not applied on freight vehicles). With Air Brakes, which were NOT common in Britain or Spain/Portugal in the steam era, a Major change came with the arrival of Diesel & Electric locomotives. A Dual pipe system was introduced, where you have in addition to the "Brake Pipe", a second pipe known as the "Main reservoir pipe". This allows the Air brake system to be used as previously described using the brake pipe. But the addition of the 2nd "Main Reservoir" pipe allows pressurised air cylinders on each vehicle to be constantly kept charged with air pressure. When the air brake is used in normal use, by releasing air pressure to slow a train down for a sharp curve for example. Then when the brake is released, it can recharge direct from the air reservoir tanks, so as not to waste time waiting for the brakes too release as with the single brake pipe system. Railways in Britain can be extremely busy with trains every couple of minutes, so the dual pipe system is very beneficial, in reducing delays to trains. The modern Air brake system, can be taken yet further, if you also have an electrical supply along the whole of the train. Such as with Multiple Unit (Diesel or Electric) type passenger trains, which are common all over Europe. In this case the air pressure valves on each vehicle are all controlled by an electric relay so that ALL vehicles in the train begin braking simultaneously, and do not have to wait for the air pressure change to feed slowly along the trains brake pipe. This type of electric Air brake is known as EPB (Electro-Pneumatic Brake) in Britain. An example of the EPB brakes use (first introduced in Britain in 1951), is that I was able to stop a 12 car electric train (3x 4CEP/BEP units), around 800ft long and weighing roughly 450 tons +31 tons of passengers, from 60mph in its own length of 800ft. Using a normal instant full brake application (Not Emergency application). For ANY train this is extremely rapid deceleration. Even though this was a commuter express with a Restaurant car, the train was brought to a smooth halt, and not a drop of tea was spilt in the catering vehicle. Indeed having driven trains in many parts of the World, I have never found any other brake system anywhere in the world capable of such rapid deceleration, not even Metro type trains !!! Bake Mania 😝

[@Hyce777]

Brilliant, brilliant, comment. Cheers for the info!

[@computertechnician4896]

Thank you for the reply on UK trains.

[@computertechnician4896]

The old UK Basic Vacuum Brake system When you connect your engine to a train thats brakes are already applied using the vacuum system. The engine then pulls the same vacuum in the system and all the brakes will come off. (except the guards hand brake) The guard will check he is getting the correct vacuum at his end of the train. If correct then the vacuum is destroyed and the guard will then walk the length of the train to confirm all brakes have gone on fully. If the engine is unable to pull the vacuum, the train must be taken out of service. The train can still be moved by first walking the train and pulling a cord connected to every brake cylinder. This will equalise the air pressure / vacuum in each cylinder. This would also be done to change from an British Great Western Railway engine 25" mercury system to a standard 21" system.

[@JamesSmith-mv9fp]

@@ryanknox3522 The train airbrake system in Britain is today, a two pipe system, with a Main Reservoir pipe in addition to a Brake pipe. This allows rapid recharging of the brake pipe by the main reservoir pipe, (especially helpful on passenger trains). Because a pressurised air supply is held in air tanks on all vehicles. When air pressure is released from the Brake pipe when the driver uses the brake handle in the locomotive, the falling air pressure begins to apply brake blocks to the wheels, retarding the train. When the brake handle is released, air flows from the vehicle reservoir cylinders back into the Brake pipe, releasing the brakes far more quickly than using a single pipe system as found in the USA & Europe. There is also an even more sophisticated air brake system available from 1951 on electric passenger trains, where electric wires along the train are used to control the Brake pipe, reservoirs & main reservoir pipe automatically to apply and release the brakes simultaneously on all vehicles, therefore dramatically reducing braking distance. This system was known as the Electro Pneumatic Brake (EPB). More modern attempts to replace parts of the air pipe system with more electronics, and replace brake blocks with disc brakes, have unfortunately led to retrograde steps in actual braking performance, especially in adverse weather conditions. The most notorious being the BR 1980's "3 Step brake" (an electronically controlled air brake with a lack of versatility of the air pressure required), which should have been banned, as dangerous. So I have never found anything as good as the EPB brake for stopping passenger trains. Freight is a totally different issue, as braking becomes a lot harder & requires more skill, especially when you have two 45 tonne wagons full of commercial explosives included in the train !!!!

[@CA.papaBear]

Fun Fact: The reason why all Class A trucks have airbrake systems in place are because of how successful it was to slow down heavy trains of any size.

[@greyfox78569]

No it because brake fluid boils with the extreme heat needed to slow anything with a weight above 20,000 pounds. Air just expands and applies more force in an air brake system.

[@jasonwakewich121]

​@greyfox79007 if you are heating up the air in the break chambers enough for it to expand your vehicle is probably on fire at that point.....

[@HrLBolle]

@@katokagome4670 apart from the amount lost if a leak occurs, the break-cylinders on the rear wheels are also equipped with a spring, strong enough to very quickly overcome the atmospheric pressure and apply the breaks automatic in case of total air-system failure

[@HrLBolle]

the break-cylinders on the rear wheels are also equipped with a spring, strong enough to very quickly overcome the atmospheric pressure and apply the breaks automatic in case of total air-system failure. at least were I work in Germany

[@HrLBolle]

@@katokagome4670 yeah boiling the breaks is bad... ahhh nope bad doesn't cover the whole affair. and in this case I refer to any and all ways to damage a break system to the point of inoperability: # Glazing the pads # leak of any kind # busted caliper you name it and there's gonna be at least 500 cars on the road at any given time that have this specific defect.

[@Gigaguenther]

excellent explanation! i watched 44 minutes about a topic that will never be of any use to me in my life and i loved it. your simple drawings surprisingly work very well to get your points across

[@markfrench8892]

As a retired railroader I think your tutorial on air brakes was great. Strangely enough I was just going through an old Western House catalog on pre 1900s air brakes.And my favorite expression for putting a train into emergency is Wipe the Clock. 😁

[@Hyce777]

Wipe the clock! I've only heard that once or twice. We usually say dynamite or big hole 'round my way. I appreciate the feedback, cheers :) hope you are enjoying retirement!

[@kiwitrainguy]

That sounds similar to the procedure of "Wiping The Dial" which was for the driver/engineer to drain the entire contents of the brake system out completely (while standing sill of course) and recharging with new air. This is to get ride of any water/dampness/condensation that accumulates in the system over time (after about a coupe of hours).

[@deritter5005]

I am a train driver in Switzerland. We know brakes and the techniques like the automatic brake too. I think you explained the brakes perfectly. Good job!

[@Hyce777]

Cheers!

[@O.Burger]

As a train driver in Europe I'm glad to get al the way to level 10 with out hearing to much new things. Somethings are slightly different, like level 8 with the valves looking for the speed of the reduction. I don't think they are used here. But I'm only a passenger train driver not freight, and they are at max 700 meteres long so not that we realy need those. And those truck like brakes with the spring we actualy have those here in some loco's and trainsets, but they replace the handbrake. But a great video, a bit long, but verry good and I like the art style with the paint drawings. It has a charm about it

[@Hyce777]

Cheers! Yeah, this video was intended for folks with less than that understanding so it's good you didn't learn more. Maybe down the road in a future more in-depth video :)

[@rayposo1104]

UIC distributors with emergency valves actually exist in Europe, but my gathering is that they are very very rarely used. So far I've only seen them on a few autoracks specifically designed for passenger trains ("Autozug" "Autoslaap" or whatever they're called locally), when they sense a sharp reduction in the brake pipe they keep dumping air until it gets empty enough... a real PITA when doing shunting moves with those (plus they're LOUD)

[@d46512]

The greatest possible pressure difference in a vacuum pipe is 14.7 psi i.e. one atmosphere. The diameter must be larger to deliver the same power as a 90 psi system.

[@DonkenAndToivolaRR]

I miss level 11: How an automatic brake of simple concept (or from the early days, the ones with simple comparision between reservoir and train pipe) can be exhausted by multiple applications of brakes without appropriate re-charging in between applications. And how the brakes can fail if left in lap due to slowly discharging the train pipe and brake reservoirs over time without brake application.

[@Hyce777]

It's about the volume of air required, and the fact that steam air compressors were not the most efficient beasts around, and as well the charge rate for the reservoirs is pretty slow. From empty, it takes about 5 minutes to completely charge a small train even - so, if you use enough air setting, releasing, setting, releasing, etc. - you can lose sufficient capacity in the reservoirs fast enough that you're using much more than the air compressor can keep up with, and either you lose braking power from the reservoirs being empty or you lose braking power because your main reservoir cannot keep up with demand, which leads to the same. It takes a lot to get there though, and this is controlled by the book of Air Brake and Train Handling rules. There's a rule with non-self lapping brake valves that you can't have more than 5 PSI / minute leak (different by RR rules as well, I believe 5 is the maximum though) to mitigate any other failures. If you've got a big enough leak at the right spot in your brake pipe, you can't charge the rest of the train.

[@jackpeterson6540]

@@Hyce777 +Brakes according to the FRA are required to remain set for five minutes. Most when set out I've seen them still set a week later. The problem with the brake pipe pressure dropping below the equalization pressure is that an emergency application is no longer available. Emergency applications provide for 20% higher brake cylinder pressure. Jack Peterson hogheaddotnet

[@VintageJunior]

Absolutely loving this new series. Keep it up Hyce, you're the man.

[@tissuepaper9962]

The periodic recaps are *key* to what makes these videos so good. Makes it really easy to get back into the video after a distraction.

[@jackpeterson6540]

My experiences with HIGH FRICTION COMPOSITION BRAKE SHOES. I recall the GN testing high friction brakes shoes when I was a GN Brakeman 1960-68. The tests were around Bethel, MN that's about 35 miles North of Mpls. On the GN line from Superior, WI to Minneapolis, MN. I wasn't on the crew but heard that they were testing by going different speeds and even dynamiting the air. Trouble was that testing was being done mid-day in a August heat wave! I haven't seen any testing being done in cold weather that is experienced in Northern States. Ya, coldest as a Brakeman -48f in Cass Lake, MN, and coupling air hose's. You'd grab the near hose with two hands and bend it up into a u-shape. Then grab the far air hose and bend it up waiting for the near air hose to slowly, slowly try to straighten out, guiding the glad hands to a connection. Then I rode the tail end (100 cars) two and a half miles to a joint and walked to the engine. I know about cold weather. The first year as a Fireman I started on the old DSS&A line Superior, WI to Ewen, MI. We were picking up a car of lumber on the Connersville Spur, that's just east of Thomason Siding. We had a GE U30c, an 800 and was picking the car up with the lite engine. We approached the car and the engine was plowing a large snow pile higher than the coupler. Don Beasley stopped me just short of the car and had me pull away so he could clear the snow away from the couple itself. If you were to try and couple with all that snow you had the chance of blocking the lock block from falling in place. If that happened you would have to remove the knuckle to clear the lock block. I pulled away about a good half car length and stopped. I reached for my coffee bottle and then Don was screaming at me over the radio, the engine was backing up and would crush him if he hadn't seen it to his side vision. That was really scary. SCARY. It was downhill there but I never had a GP 7 or 9 do that. My first impression was that the composition shoe polished the wheel surface so much and the shoe being cold would not provide enough friction to hold. I later found that this was only a small part of the problem in cold weather. Cast Iron shoes leave a lot rougher surface on the wheel and the shoes wear a lot faster. What happens on the road is the shoes get hot when used and trailing thru snow or blowing snow it melts on the shoe and gives it a coating of ice. The next time the brakes are used that ice layer needs to be broken thru. Cast Iron shoes leaving a rougher surface breaks thru faster even with lite applications. (6 pound notch reduction) not so with the composition shoes. I found that in snow conditions a twelve to fifteen pound reduction was the least I felt comfortable with to break through that ice layer. I worked a 3pm switch engine at Rices Point Yard in Duluth, MN. There was a lot of snow and blowing snow. When I inspected the engine going to work, the brakes told a story. With the repeated application and releases of the brakes, there was a three quarter inch layer of compacted snow/ice on the working surface of the brake shoes. All twelve wheels. ICE BRAKES??? I left the independent brake on full and took a full service reduction on the automatic to increase the cylinder pressure even more to wear the ice away. After that I carried a magnet that I would put on the side of the independent brake handle on engines with composition shoes so the brakes would never fully release in those working conditions. My last trip as a brakeman on the GN was a real eye opener concerning composition shoes. I was on a taconite train. The lead engines speedometer was off, really off. 32 was about 48 or more. Engineer was from Kelly Lake and I believe unfamiliar working out of Superior as I had never seen or worked with him. Up with empty's, pull thru the loading tipple and return to Allouez Ore Yard unloading shed. Four or five car units with solid drawbars between them and rotary couplers on each end. Usually two hundred fifteen cars. Loading tipple would;d tell you how much was loaded, usually fifteen or sixteen thousand tons, plus you needed to add the weight of the taconite cars. It's starts downhill at Cloquet, MN all the way to Boylston Jct. I don't have a timecard but it's about twenty-five miles. Speed limit on taconite was thirty mph. Going thru Dewey speed was close to an actual speed of 45+ mph. The conductor called and said we had cars on the ground. Engineer started an application. Conductor dumped the air. Leaving Dewey there is a slightly increase downgrade. Speed increased to fifty mph with the train in emergency. The next station is Boylston Jct.. The signal was double red as the Passenger Train headed to Mpls/St. Paul was approaching Boylston Jct. and so were we, except our train wasn't going to stop short of Boylston. This is going to be close. The passenger train made it. The signal changed for us less than an engine length from the signal. When we stopped we had three engines and five taconite cars beyond the junction switch. Less the two minutes from either spearing or head-on collision with the passenger train. I walked the entire taconite train and found four leading axles on four widely separated locations on the ground South of the South rail. The train went very close to, or did go five miles with the train in emergency. The taconite cars had roller bearing axles and composition brake shoes. I had another experience with excess speed with 100 empty freight cars, but with cast iron shoes this time. Speed was forty seconds a mile. That's whole n other story, and ore trains too. I had some fun and games with trains, ones with cast iron brake shoes and forty foot box cars filled with grain that is. Leaving Glenwood, MN the first stop for us was at Brooten, MN. That's where we needed to line a switch entering the Brooten Line to Superior, WI. Track speed was 40mph. By the mile board at 40. A lite application kicking off the head end brakes to keep everything stretched. Then seeing how fast I could go over the main street crossing and still stop for the junction switch. At the road crossing increase to a full service reduction and stop in about 700 feet for the switch. After many trips, well, at 26 I put the lead wheel of the engine on the points. That was the end of that shit. There is the saying “Stop short, NO Guts. Run by, POOR JUDGEMENT”. I found that slowing for the head man to get the switch without stopping was actually faster. Same with the hind-end lining the switch back. On many a 200 mile trip the first stop was at the yarding track in Superior. Jack Peterson hogheaddotnet

[@Hyce777]

I love reading these stories of yours Jack! Would be great to do an episode of just you telling train stories :)

[@gordonhunter3769]

Much appreciate your lucid explanation. As a brakeman working as holiday relief one summer (CPR) I must have had to do some learning but have to thank you for correcting a misunderstanding of the brake system I've carried all these years. (How many years? Well, just a few years earlier I shoveled coal at least once on a tired yard engine in shunting service and thanks to KZbin now also have a much clearer understanding of how injectors work).

[@mesenteria]

Not only does condensate (AKA 'water') not compress, it also freezes. Frozen brake valves even partway down a consist, spell disaster.

[@Hyce777]

Good point!

[@Katya5cat]

For 37 years I worked as a truck mechanic and I made a career change in '08. From then on I worked as a millwright in a steel mill. There I worked on overhead cranes. On weekends we had the responsibility for derailed trains so we were witnessing much of what you've described. Those poor guys driving locomotives were fired for derails. They would normally get the job back but wow. Through the years there I noticed that the brakes on trains were essentially bigger versions of truck systems. That is probably an oversimplified description of what I saw. I never was able to talk to someone knowledgeable about the train brakes on a mechanics level. The RTO (remote train operator) operators were always new and couldn't give much info. Your video has shined a light on some of the things I had been trying to put together about the systems. Like I said about working on trucks I didn't really look into it much but the FMVSS manual for trucks also covered rail cars and locomotives. Thanks for your video it's answered a few questions that I've had on the subject.

[@blockstacker5614]

George Westinghouse was a genius

[@PowerTrain611]

Interesting story about the accidental dump save. I have done something similar on a 24RL on a GE 23 tonner. The engine had just come back from a big overhaul of the electrical system and just had the 24RL put in, prior it was 6BL or something similar. I was coming down the hill and was making a small 8-10 pound reduction, going in small hits because the hill is a gradual decline. That day we found out the dump bump had been ground down so low, you can't even feel the difference from the service position. Realizing it had dumped, I immediately put it into lap and managed to save the MR and only dumped about 30 pounds from the BP. Moved it to release, and after a small jolt and a short stop, kept going.

[@Hyce777]

I'm not the only one! Haha. I've dealt with "modified" bumps before... never fun. I wish I knew more about 24RL, it seems neat. I've never really interfaced with it.

[@PowerTrain611]

@@Hyce777 It's a lot of fun. I love the non-self lapping stands, you have so much more control. It takes a decent amount of skill to master charging the trainline without overcharging, but it's super rewarding. It's not all that different to work with than the 6 other than pressure maintaining... unless you work in the mechanical department!

[@Hyce777]

@@PowerTrain611 Lol! good to know. I just recall our machinists at BNSF needing to get the SD9 in the picture to pass an air test to tow it out for sale and no one knew 24RL... quite complex on the mechanical end, good to know operationally it's not too different :D

[@slave288]

Great video and well explained, but I need to correct one thing. You said that in steam locos your main pressure could never be more than your boiler pressure. This isn't guaranteed true. It is very common and easy to build a compressor that has a larger steam cylinder which can apply more force and torque to a smaller sized air cylinder which would then be able to have higher air pressure that it compresses causing equal force back against the lower pressure steam cylinder. It's all about sizing ratios.

[@Hyce777]

Yup, goofed that explanation up. Thanks :)

[@slowpoke96Z28]

It's so awesome how you break these down into 10 different levels. It let's people "tap out" after a certain point if they choose/need to.

[@MrDrury27]

more like brake these down eh

[@Skasaha_]

I think you've answered one of the mysteries of my childhood. I lived along a preserved railway and a tiny 0-4-0 I often rode behind (and sometimes in) had a tiny diesel engine on a bracket they'd added to the back of the cab. It never occurred to me all this time, but now I realise it was actually an air compressor for the brake lines. I don't know why they'd need it but I have a few guesses- original equipment was too weak, incompatible for some reason, or needing repair perhaps.

[@Mister_Brown]

or it was an ancient engine with no air brake equipment fitted or vacuum brakes

[@blackoak4978]

Anyone who thinks that this is long video should consider that airbrakes in trucks(at least) is a level of licensing all on it's own

[@tynishajohnson13]

Excellent explanation. I am taking up Air Brakes in class now (locomotive engineer training program). This helped so much.

[@kBIT01]

So you can use a cross compound pump to make air at higher pressure than the steam. You just need a larger steam piston than an air piston. Pressure is force/area after all. Air over hydraulic pumps use this principal to get pretty crazy pressures from 100 psi air.

[@WilliamHBaird-eq2hp]

A very good and simple to understand for an air brake application

[@thewarderman1840]

watching these videos makes me want to revisit the strasburg railroad museum just to see all these on the different trains.

[@10923476jack]

Really enjoying the series. I'd like to see how they would release if there's enough information on that topic. Also as a side note, i can hear quite a bit of popping from time to time in the audio

[@Hyce777]

Aware of the popping.... Ugh. And yeah, there's more detail but we didn't get into it in this video.

[@rails-n-things]

@@Hyce777 Hi there. Friend from the museum I volunteer at sent me this video and I plan on going over this in depth as I am always looking to learn. Ping me if you want help with the audio. Either we can work on preventing in the first place, or removing it post-production.

[@Threelinkdave]

In the UK we have an additional pipe. The train pipe is red and the resevoir pipe is yellow. The resevoir pipe keeps each cars resevoir toped up which gives a quicker release time. ONn the HIGH sPEED TRAin, with a service speed of 125 MPH and it was found that it took too long for the train pipe to dump air. This problem was solved with an electrical actuator in the rear loo. The HST has a loco at each end of 7 to 9 passenger coache. When the driver moves the brake handle an electrical sihnal is sent to the rear loco so a brake valve follos the lead loco and the air is exhausting from the train pipe from both ends to give a shorter stoping distance

[@B-and-O-Operator-Fairmont]

Thanks for posting this tutorial. I may go work for a tourist road after I retire from my "real" job, and they run F7 and GP9 diesels with 24RL stands (one switcher has 6 air, but it probably will never run again). I have had a good understanding for years HOW automatic air worked, but this really enlightened me WHY it works. Perhaps sometime you could discuss engines with pressure maintaining? The aforementioned road has one 1950 vintage F7 that lacks both dynamic brakes and pressure maintaining; the engineer has to work the air like it is steam engine days!

[@Hyce777]

Glad you enjoyed it! Yeah, pressure maintaining would be a good topic. I'd need to read up on it myself, never had the pleasure of really getting to run anything with it, haha. I've always thought of retiring to the tourist ops myself :)

[@bobsmith2637]

@@Hyce777 if you do, it's also worth noting that it is possible to trick those older brake valves into pressure maintaining by using the regulating or feed valve, this unapproved technique is of course referred to as "feed valve braking". It can also come in handy on the 26 or 30 systems if pressure maintaining fails (usually from a leak somewhere on the equalizing reservoir piping) and the brake valve does not have both freight and passenger settings (switching to passenger usually makes it work again). Electronic brake valves won't let you change the settings or feed valve pressure while the train is moving, but I've never seen pressure maintaining fail on any of them.