Accident Case Study: In Too Deep

Link to certificate, WINGS credit, and ASI transcript: bit.ly/ACSTooD...
Description: This Accident Case Study is a re-creation of an accident that occurred in suburban Chicago on November 26, 2011. The 207-hour non-instrument-rated private pilot took off from Marion, Indiana, in a Cirrus SR20, and was flying to DuPage Airport, near Chicago. On board were his two daughters, and the boyfriend of the younger daughter. The purpose of the flight was to bring the older daughter back to college and then return home to Indiana. All four occupants were killed when the aircraft plunged to the ground after nearly two hours of flight time.
To learn more, check out our VFR into IMC Safety Center at www.airsafetyin...
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[@Rama41]

From my 1964 pilot training class yearbook: "It's always better to be on the ground wishing you were up in the air than up in the air wishing you were on the ground."

[@edwardr5084]

amen

[@ecidadeII]

“Every takeoff is optional. The landing is mandatory.” - Ron Tressler (my first CFI)

[@touristguy87]

@@ecidadeII ...what if you pack the plane full of Tannerite and fire a gun into it mid-flight?

[@ecidadeII]

@@touristguy87 WTF does that have to do with takeoff & landings?

[@touristguy87]

@@ecidadeII if you need that explained to you, then please comfort us all and tell us that you're not a pilot

[@zyglo9826]

I remember a CFI telling me: “If you suddenly find yourself in IFR conditions, execute the maneuver that has saved thousands of lives-a 180 degree turn.”

[@zainy11]

at standard rate!

[@tenchan634]

@@justinatkinson3642 With no IFR clearance or IFR training? No, you turn around and fly VFR back home.

[@zainy11]

@@justinatkinson3642 If you're not IFR rated 99% you're going to death spiral to the scene of the crash

[@babe8866]

@@justinatkinson3642 my brother in christ, he means a pilot that’s not ifr rated

[@nedthemumbler9942]

Shit full throttle mf’rs

[@patriot9455]

The pilot was in a state of gradually encompassing panic. It is not just pilots who are at risk when they misjudge the conditions versus their abilities. I drove over the road trucks for 40 years. More than once I thought the weather was getting uncontrollable and suggested to the driver I was running with that we stop and wait for things to clear up. Usually, the last thing I heard was "I have a schedule to keep, you can wuss out, see ya later." More than once, I drove past the remains of their rig. They did not keep their schedule, and likely never would again. It is better to be in the truck stop, on the phone rescheduling, than being pulled out of the remains of a truck. Overconfidence and panic are killers at any altitude or any road.

[@pl7868]

Yeppers i started driving truck 1974 retired 2012 from driving over the road then drove tri-axle for 4 yrs in northern ontario working on bridges and you have never seen it all or if you are aware not learned something everyday , now i'm glad that's over lol , time to get a pilot lisc. i think :)

[@stap1er]

for truckers time is money right? Like they only get paid per mile. Even company drivers. If that's the case, there's an implicit motivation to take risks, especially if you really need the money.

[@pl7868]

@@stap1er most truckers are paid by the load,if it's 500 miles roundtrip your paid 500 miles an loading time ect.. hrs of service means you can only run about 500/600 miles per day anyway

[@stap1er]

@@pl7868 right, so if you're delayed, your next load will be delayed.. ultimately meaning the more delays (potentially out of your control like adverse weather), the fewer loads per year.

[@pl7868]

@@stap1er not really,most loads are 500 miles so if ur delayed just longer day,weather is rarely a factor,traffic is,long haul is mostly 1/2 trips a week thing,getting loaded is the real delay,same money

[@heathen2487]

Good grief. The pilot treated his situation like someone not sure which restaurant to choose.

[@Jbmc65]

Exactly, when I was listening to it I thought for sure he was going to ask for a heading to executive or put it into his GPS and go there. That was the safest fastest option. Who cares if you are stuck in an airport and can not get home. It’s better to be on the ground than wishing you were on the ground. It’s really scary to think that all these fatal crashes happen with pilots that have a lot more experience than I. I promised my wife I would never take a chance and do something I would regret. If it can not be done safely than I don’t want to do it.

[@millomweb]

How many tables has it got ? ;)

[@adotintheshark4848]

@@Jbmc65 It's better to be safe on the ground than to be forced into the ground.

[@adotintheshark4848]

heaven forbid he has to decide on the menu items.

[@gilvietor1918]

You would be surprised how many close calls guys have had, where they just weren't thinking clearly. Use it as an example to check yourself, it is amazing how we fool ourselves into dumbness.

[@emelody7849]

“I don’t want to get stuck there all day”. That sentence right there paints the mind frame of this pilot. He didn’t even comprehend that what he was doing was extremely dangerous. Up until the final minutes, he thought of it is an inconvenience rather than a life or death situation. In the end, that’s what got him killed. Rip.

[@quantumtacos]

Not at all. That was an excuse given by a pilot who didn't want to admit to ATC or his passengers that he used bad judgement and he's in over his head. He felt uncomfortable with the situation, and for good reason, but that was the one thing he was absolutely determined to not say. There is no room for people like that in aviation, and the pilot is not the only one at fault here. No one should have cleared him to fly solo in the first place.

[@fahadfaisal7855]

@@quantumtacos "...no one should have cleared him to fly solo in the first place." Once you have a PPL, you do not need anyone to 'clear you to fly Solo'! Quantomtacos did get this right: he just was not going to admit his IFR issues...he was in a solid IFR...and it was the SR-20 wonderful Autopilot that kept him and his unfortunate passengers alive as long as it did. I have a feeling it was the autopilot that somehow disconnected...and then there was no recovering from it. SR-20 is one heck of an airplane to fly for someone with just over 200 hours...even in VFR. In IFR, they were doomed once airborne. Sad ending...especially for his young passengers!

[@sludge8506]

@@quantumtacos Who did he need permission from to fly that day??? 🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️

[@williamstrachan]

They found a ticket for an Indianapolis Colts game in the wreckage. Just 1... seems like he might have been worried he'd miss it. He... did. This one is a real... one to ponder about for when making choices.

[@user-ej9jq2zf1y]

He was trapped in a mindset to get out of the overwhelming and deadly conditions to not get caught and grounded for a day or two...to the point he was so mentally fixated, he no longer was considering the risk he was taking was going to kill him and the other 3 that had trusted him as a pilot in command. Very sad!

[@zyrrhos]

"It's only at the end, when the horizon suddenly tilts, and the mind can't make sense of what the eyes are telling it, that we understand the true gravity of the situation." Great writing. Chilling.

[@lizettewanzer8650]

I, too, admired that, although the use of the phrase "true gravity" there was a bit of a bone-chilling pun :-( Just drove the point home all the more, though.

[@DrWhom]

Gravity is the only factor in all of this that is unchanging and fully predictable.

[@brianmontgomery9112]

I wonder if they know they’re flying at an angle or did he think he was level flying

[@nicholasbutler153]

If you're a passenger, how late into the flight do you start to think "Am I going to get out of this alive?"

[@whiskeybravo91]

right around the time you hear "I'm in training and I've let this get around me"

[@markstevenson1646]

B4 I get on the plane

[@dodoman6372]

@@whiskeybravo91 that’s about right. Yep

[@adotintheshark4848]

wishing you had a parachute.

[@LowWingFlyer]

@@adotintheshark4848 A parachute would not have saved them in this instance. By the time he realized he was in a dive he was too fast, too steep and too low.

[@noonedude101]

You know the moment that a pilot tries to avoid talking to approach, he's in deep and trying to cover it up.

[@itsmemckee2110]

I drive by the airport where this pilot took off from every day. My wife worked for his dad and it nearly killed this man to lose his son and grandkids. He has pretty much went downhill really bad.

[@carolynmiles9281]

The purpose of videos like this is to reduce the number of families that experience that pain.

[@alphacentauri1760]

I would never put my family members on my plane. The stakes are too high and I don’t need them to affect my judgment. I wouldn’t travel with all of my important family members either because I want to maintain designated survivors.

[@alphacentauri1760]

Think of it. A 200 hour pilot have the same chance of malfunction/bad weather to a 20,000 hour pilot. You don’t want to fly with your loved one with you being the PIC. You got to risk your life to work your skills up and it’s your instructor’s job to share the risk with you, but your family and friends getting involved is unnecessary.

[@EatPezzzz]

@@alphacentauri1760 but a 20,000 hour pilot has the experience to navigate through bad weather, keep flying with a malfunction, or maintain control of a completely malfunctioning plane and land the plane in a place where the landing will be survivable. This pilot was just unqualified to be flying with poor visibility. One of my instructors has 15,000 hours of flight time and has crashed (for lack of a better term.... Landed a plane that would no longer stay in the air on its own) 12 planes in his career. Walked away from all of them.

[@dragonflydreamer7658]

Has 15000 hrs and crashed 15 times ok maybe there is a problem with flying your all a bunch of crazy people anyway I do accident recovery and all of the rest of you will be in my body bag on the first crash. God Bless

[@kewkabe]

11:38 is really heartbreaking, where ATC tells him goodbye, you're on your own. Sounds like the pilot even knew what it meant. As a controller myself, his erratic course after he announced he was going to PWK showed he was in distress, and today no question I would consider it an emergency. In my early years in ATC I would have done the same as the controller here, "You're in charge of your aircraft and say you want to leave my airspace VFR? Not my problem, squawk 1200 frequency change approved." Videos like this though have made me more aware of the psychological situations private pilots may be facing, and I believe thanks to these I have helped pilots with similar indecisive attitudes help make the correct decision. Thanks, Air Safety Institute.

[@Debkghtulvkfjkjfxjjcj]

These atc’s did seem a little hard on the guy. Maybe bust his balls when he’s on the ground safely.

[@rogerwilco2]

@@Debkghtulvkfjkjfxjjcj They actually seemed helpful to me, trying to get him out of the situation, and clearly communicating between themselves that this was a guy on VRF in dangerous conditions. The pilot refused their help. He sounded really confused and indecisive, and in general just incoherent and unable to articulate his ideas and wishes.

[@megenberg8]

@@Debkghtulvkfjkjfxjjcj pilot was in babble mode early on. needs to declare an emergency - even though he may not be aware and/or accepting of the situation. atc should be trained to spot these guys and get help on the line asap. the pilot simply wasn't up to it. it's basic denial - and a definite EMERGENCY!

[@Debkghtulvkfjkjfxjjcj]

Lady Tate easy for the atc yo day on the ground. The atc wasn’t helpful, argumentative and compounded the situation. You’re wrong.

[@megenberg8]

@@Debkghtulvkfjkjfxjjcj what is 'yo'? and please let this answer your post: atc may not have been able to help him, as per technical/legal restraints. atc could have asked if he wanted to declare an emergency - that is true - but the pilot presented himself as having other ideas/solutions. someone else may have been more open to advisory considerations. again, the pilot was evidently incapacitated by extreme stress (or even shock) upon the realization of his predicament. he attempted to maintain control but must have feared his loss of same. another commenter noted that the pilot would probably 'not have taken advice from Chuck Yeager'. p.s. i've been reading this board for over an hour. during this time i've come close to crying aloud at least twice. i became near ill also, a couple of times. i laughed heartily at the amusing and bright commentary. this pilot sought to avoid exposing his incompetence at every cost. that is the thing.

[@davidreitter1390]

This is the video that, a year or two ago, did the most in convincing me to get an instrument rating, and having had it for a couple of months has already paid off.

[@WendelltheSongwriter]

That's the idea, David. Good on ya.

[@jackrillema7423]

Helps, but not the answer

[@daytonitalo]

That is a great decision you took. Now the next step is to keep practicing, be not only legal but also proficient. IFR can go rusty on you real quick.

[@jeanco46]

Wouldn't it be better if the Vfr-rating was skipped altogether?

[@areza15143]

Great to hear. Just remember the IFR rating doesn’t make you bulletproof. Some of my worst IMC incidents were after I was rated. But congrats on getting that, it’s the hardest rating I think.

[@banjo2019]

I have actually watched and re-watched this case study more than once. It really affects me, maybe because I fit the profile of this pilot: a dad, around the same age, and a newer pilot who flies just because of a love of aviation (not for career). A few new things struck me when watching it a second or third time, after my completing more hours of flight lessons and gaining a better grasp of ATC skills. For one, it's obvious to me, now, that he was inexperienced and uncomfortable with ATC communication work. Maybe he had gotten used to flying out of untowered airports. Or maybe it was just the stress of the situation. Either way, he was not providing simple read-backs to ATC, did not call out to ATC using standardized and recommended phraseology, incorrectly thought an altitude restriction was for him when it was not, got confused even by ATC's attempt to clarify the altitude remarks, and generally seemed afraid or paralyzed by anxiety of just reaching out to these controllers to seek their help. It broke my heart when I realized this, because ATC was so, so close to literally saving his life. DuPage Tower actually gave him clearance to land even though it was IFR only, and even though the pilot did not request it. The other controllers were fully prepared to vector him in for landing. Although he had not declared an emergency (which he should have), all of the controllers were still responding to him with the urgency that gave him a real chance of surviving. They almost saved him. They tried. The other point that stands out to me is that I am not sure the pilot was really being honest with himself when he said, a couple times, that he "didn't want to get stuck there all day." Although he offered this as his reason for not wanting to land at DuPage and later Chicago Executive, I think the more likely scenario is that he was too embarrassed to tell ATC--especially with the kids listening in--that the low visibility, marginal VFR conditions were just downright scary for him to try and land in. Rather than saying that, he said he didn't want to be sitting around in DuPage or Chicago all day waiting for the weather to clear up. If he was a more seasoned pilot with instrument ratings, that would maybe make sense. We can never know for sure but I think the real truth is that he was afraid of safely landing at all. If I'm right about that, it underscores an important lesson to me and to all pilots: get ATC to help you, and remember that the embarrassment of doing so pales in comparison to what is really at stake. Had he told DuPage that he has trouble seeing the runway, he's scared, he's not sure what to do, and he's not instrument rated, DuPage could have still helped. Maybe vectoring him back carefully could have worked. Maybe, even though he's not IFR rated, he did know how to use ILS. There are all kinds of things that might have worked. Long comment here, any responses from more experienced pilots or controllers welcome. I've spent the time doing this in part because I feel a kinship with this dad. My heart breaks for the family. May they at least carry on with the knowledge that the tragic loss of these beautiful souls will not go in vain, because the rest of us will use this experience to learn, study, contemplate, and probably save lives.

[@Watchdog_McCoy_5.7x28]

I agree. The embarrassment of admitting he was not confident in landing safely is absolutely what caused him to say he didn't want to get in there and be stuck all day. Pride killed this family. Sadly, it happens more often than people realize, and not just in aviation.

[@sludge4125]

Great comment, banjo. Incompetence got him into his predicament, IMO, and pride kept him there. Very sad.

[@randomschmo5778]

You nailed it. Really just terribly sad.

[@sludge4125]

I nominate your post for Post of the Year.

[@jordanm5677]

100% truth

[@mboyer68]

He kept saying "I don't want to get stuck there all day" and sadly...he's stuck there for eternity. I feel terrible for the mother of his girls...damn.

[@jerrymarshall2095]

What a way to go,spinning ,vertigo in the soup then you see the earth,u know ur ass is grass.A plane crash,burning alive,and eaten by a shark.I hope Those aren't the bucket at the end of my list.

[@sciencewizard8805]

I think his not wanting to get stuck there is why he was in the air, but at this point I think he is feeling some fear, not afraid of inconvenience anymore. The fumbling on the radio; he sounds so uncertain. I think he's afraid he won't see the airport, or is afraid if he tries to turn to it he will lose control. But if he really was still worried about being stuck in the wrong airport that is really sad. But to me, I think he was worried about being stuck where he can't see/fly/land (as in, he's barely maintaining control, he has passengers behind him, and he's trying to get out of this without everyone realizing they almost died).

[@sciencewizard8805]

At the beginning of the clip, he asks if it's possible to land, but then asks about alternatives after losing sight of the airport. He says he's afraid of getting stuck here all day (his destination). He's not afraid of getting stuck at his destination, he's afraid of not being able to land, and being stuck in these clouds. But I think at this point he finally isn't worried about being stuck at the wrong place. At the end, he says "at this point I don't want to mess with the weather. I'm gonna get out, and I don't want to get stuck in here." he then Flys west, away from his destination, and his nearest alternates, to try to get away from the weather. So the lesson is don't ever get in the spot he was in at the start, and probably use the controllers info about the weather to decide where to go. It was odd, the guy got so confused he was thinking a lower cloud ceiling was better in part of the radio communication. As this seems simple to someone with zero flight hours, the stress was clearly high.

[@scottskinner577]

Thats deep

[@scottskinner577]

No disrespect to this pilot and his loved ones at all, but if the Bonanza is referred to as the "Doctor Killer", isnt it about time to consider referring to the Cirrus as something similar?

[@cindymcintyre6697]

40 years ago my instructor taught me well. I was instrument trained from day one. He said he wouldn't teach me if I wasn't willing to put the effort in. Put me under the hood my first time up. Wouldn't let me solo til I passed my instruments flight test. Flew me in milk many times. And as important, taught me to focus on flying when in the air. Thank you Clyde.

[@PilotDave85]

Now that's a smart instructor.

[@gerilynntarvin9402]

good for you and your instructor-it would have been better if my instructor had given me that same option, I lived in central Calif and at the time I didn't contemplate IFR option, although I did-illegally fly IFR with no issues I was comfortable in that environment. still bad idea.

[@dollyhadbraces9361]

@kingair001 ah airman's certificate , nice try

[@brandtbecker1810]

@kingair001 Can you go ahead and start at least TRAINING on instruments early on in the process? (In Cindy's case, testing might have been different in 1980.) As one getting ready to begin flight training, I think this is something I'll discuss at length with my instructor. VFR is fine but no pilot should ever be satisfied with having just that. Time and again these vids prove that it's necessary to have, at minimum, good working knowledge of instruments whether or not one has the "scrap of paper". Just my two cents' worth as a beginner (-:

[@turkey0165]

My father in the 40s in order to achieve a private pilots license Spin Recovery was required in order to get a private pilots license, today you don’t have to have that, That’s a big mistake!

[@RedRoo13]

One of my flight instructor's told me, "when encountering clouds, a VFR pilot's best friend is an immediate 180 degree turn, no exceptions"! When a pilot first encounters clouds, they are often thin and one can still see the ground and that leads inexperienced pilots to think they are in no danger of going into IFR conditions. The story told here plays out far too often.

[@jaysmith1408]

I got caught up in a building summer storm, turn around, and if you have to get somewhere, land and wait. We landed at Youngstown, the FBO was more than helpful. Waited an hour and change, storm passed, and we went home. Naturally, failures notwithstanding, watch those instruments. Otherwise you’ll end up in a spiral. Oh, and stop second guessing, if you want to land, land, and don’t be picky. (Oh, my truck is almost out of fuel, but the only stop around here is TA, but I don’t like their coffee, so I’ll press on. Oh darn, here’s a Pilot but they only have a Subway, I guess I’ll go back and see if the TA is still there. Runs out of fuel halfway to the Loves. What was that whole thing about needing fuel I mentioned an hour and forty miles ago again?) as usual I got on a tangent. If you are in too deep, land, and don’t be picky. Ask control where the closest field is that is clear. Like clear clear. And pick that one. If you want to get the hell out of dodge, once again, ask where the weather clears up, and fly there. And don’t be picky, and don’t keep changing your mind. Ain’t it interesting how you can have CRM issues without a first officer?

[@Holdit66]

I'm not a pilot, but I remember reading somewhere that the inpexperienced pilot will press on into bad weather and will see the more experienced pilot who has decided to turn back and who, on landing, will encounter the most experienced pilot...who decided not to take off in the first place.

[@davez6175]

The "I dont want to get stuck all day" sounds like an excuse for someone who is embarrassed, confused and a bit afraid. He was out of his element from the first transmission. Sad, RIP.

[@roasthunter]

Sad isn't it, I don't want to get stuck all day, instead he and his passengers all died.

[@topspot4834]

Exactly. You could tell he didn't want to look "stupid" or make his passengers nervous by admitting he had no clue what he was doing. Sad his own ego killed him and his daughters.

[@TheRuby13red]

That kinda talk he was doing is when the family takes a road trip and the driver is indecisive about what route to take and impatient with roadblocks! All over the place!!

[@thisisurcaptain]

In the end, he did look stupid.

[@jamesgreen9954]

You could here the indecisiveness and his consideration to land at each airport in his communications with the ATC at each but appeared to convince himself he could find better conditions and or make it to his destination. If this is ever the decision at hand I will always land. But first and foremost never fly VFR into IMC conditions at low altitude. Unfortunately this is the outcome way to often.

[@splitsandpens]

He was my hangar neighbor and related to my daughter by marriage. He always flew with his son but this time his daughter's boyfriend filled the seat. I was at the hangar shortly after he left. I could not believe he tried to fly that day. All he had to do was declare an emergency. Get it on the ground. Bust minimums. Land at O'Hare for cryin' out loud. Because 2 seconds after touchdown it's just a story of your worst screw up. A story. That's a better story than this one.

[@dedasdude]

splitsandpens might be his passengers were arguing with him, making him land near college. No one this stupid would have been given a licence.

[@souocara38able]

@@dedasdude if a pilot lets a passenger argue with him about piloting decisions, he is precisely that stupid

[@lembriggs1075]

souocara38able Very well said!

[@crooked-halo]

@@dedasdude How did this turn into such far-reaching speculation that "his passengers were arguing with him, making him land near college?" And then labeling/judging him as "stupid?" Geez - the idiotic judgment of KZbin armchair/Microsoft "pilots." Give this dead father and 3 young people some respect.

[@conqururfear]

I have 15,000 plus in a lear`` He had a death wish

[@burke615]

I used to love going up in my aunt's plane as a kid, and indeed she flew me to college my freshman year, so I feel a connection to these lost souls. Yes, I was often disappointed when we would get to the airport, she would see he current conditions or that the forecast had changed and scrub the flight. But her main concern was always being sure of her ability to get us back on the ground safely after the flight, for which stories like this make me eternally grateful.

[@mike_oe]

The DuPage Tower controller sure sounded helpful. Too bad the pilot didn't recognize his best friend at that point.

[@gdwnet]

all the controllers sounded helpful and tried to help him out but the pilot made his own decisions. If he'd landed at executive it would have been a different story.

[@zoli11]

I don't think they are allowed to do that. He is not allowed to fly into clouds so they cannot assign him anything. They can "recommend" a heading, which they offered, but he'd still be responsible to fly around clouds himself, and in any way, he told them that he goes west into better weather...

[@jayphilipwilliams]

You know the controller couldn't tell this guy what to do, right? He was his own boss. That's just what we need: more people in government controlling us. You make your own decisions and take responsibility for them. The controller tried to help, but knew they couldn't order this guy to do anything, even if they knew he was in over his head.

[@Wildcat5181]

ATC DuPage could have ordered to land. The PIC might be in control of the aircraft, but ATC controls the airspace.

[@ronparker5589]

That's why the seat is called PIC - 'Pilot In Command'.

[@jimsteele9975]

The best lesson my instructor (WWll pilot)ever taught me was by his actions, not his words...... I was just tying up a 150 after my third solo flight.....his wife called me into the office and asked me to take her car, drive to a neighboring town 30 miles away, to pick up her husband....he had decided that the weather was deteriorating too rapidly for him to continue in the very basic Aeronica Champion he was ferrying back from Texas....he was fatigued and there were towering CN clouds building between him and home......he put it down while he still could. I never asked him why..... it was obvious.....he was using the experience and judgement that had gotten him through a war and thousands of hours of flight........ I was 19 at the time....I am now 80, no longer fly due to loss of medical, but during the past 60 years I have amassed almost 6, 000 hours in the three small Cessnas I have owned......I have a Commercial License, Instrument Rating, Multi-Land and Sea......had I not learned that lesson, I might never have made it for I was a typical teen......ie....not real smart!

[@banjo2019]

Thanks for this comment. It’s powerful.

[@ChrisCoombes]

There should be a code phrase pilots can say to ATC that means ‘I’m in deep trouble but don’t want to scare my passengers’.

[@rjai4890]

I believe “I’m in training and I’ve let this get around me” was his attempt at that…

[@edwardrichardson5567]

Pan-Pan..

[@gnarthdarkanen7464]

NOTHING would've been wrong to just admit, "No, sir. I'm not fully IFR Certified, so I'd like a VFR landing as reasonably close to here as I can get it." ...AND then (where this guy f*cked up ROYAL... When ATC responds with "Executive is closest to you, with a ceiling at 1500, and VFR landing..." ...NONE of the "I don't like that." or "I don't need to get stuck there." or anything... ...THE ONLY CORRECT ANSWER is "Thank you, sir. Can I get a vector toward approach, and I'll just divert." There... 30-seconds worth of screwing around TOPS... and "crisis averted"... simple... easy... CLEAN... and everybody GETS TO LIVE!!! No need for PAN-PAN... or "MAYDAY"... No need for dramatics or theatrical hooey... No meandering all over the damn map and countryside... ...AND for the Passengers??? The Passengers will be more frightened for bouncing their asses all over your little bitty plane in a BIG UGLY SEA OF GREY... winds buffetting them blindly up and down and all around while you're grimacing out over the controls like it's going to help you see any further than the blur of the prop'... Do you REALLY think they're as blind as you seem to think they're stupid??? They CAN TELL when they're watching you posture and squint that you CAN'T SEE A DAMN THING... That's frightening on its own. You won't save anything by trying to omit the danger they're in. THEY CAN'T SEE SHIT EITHER... SO... cut it short... ADMIT you don't know what the hell you're doing and get ALL YOUR ASSES back down on the ground in one piece... The Passengers (daughters or otherwise) will be MUCH HAPPIER for the trip ending well, and you can THEN puff your chest out and grin, "Ain't nothin' the old man can't handle. That's what ATC's are for, kiddo's..." Trust me... in the moments between stumbling out of the plane to kiss the tarmac and hearing that sentiment, YOU WILL BE ZEUS AGAIN... Daughters are funny like that (read "Kids are resilient and forgiving!") ;o)

[@christopheradam6967]

Imagine if passengers on a commercial flight could see and hear the pilots, the captain would make decisions that would not frighten or alarm the passengers, not to mention lose face as a captain not in control of the situation. It’s an unfortunate circumstance of a general aviation open cockpit layout.

[@DrWhom]

I'd like some vectors to the nearest VFR airstrip

[@ericbraun4652]

The most important advice for a private pilot: "Never fly because you have to. Fly because you can."

[@emjaybruski9149]

Exactly. Set personal minimums, study the weather, and remember there is always another day to fly.

[@Landrew0]

Light planes aren't more dangerous, private pilots are.

[@DanFrederiksen]

I hold it to be self evident that all should have instrument capability. VFR is simply too limiting to be reasonable considering how inexpensive digital instruments can be today. Synthetic vision could be minimum requirement. ADS-B too

[@ericbraun4652]

@@DanFrederiksen Training is required too, of course. "Get on the instruments!" is such a common admonition as the inner ear convinces us so indisputably of what's really (not) going on.

[@bishop51807]

@ 60000hrs? People with that much flight time are hard to come by. Remember pre-covid There was a pilot shortage. Also, the guy was not instrument rated, which is a big no in IMC. Ex: Kobe's helicopter pilot wasn't instrument rated, and crashed in the same conditions.

[@jomomma8754]

Straight up I'd be like, "I'm filed VFR, I'm not rated IFR, and I need radar vectors to your field." I'll be damned if I die.

[@MrFg1980]

Yeah, no luxury of pride at that point...

[@wu-wei2229]

Jo Momma Ditto!

[@paracelsus9510]

LIKE BEARING RANGE AND ALTIMETER ALREADY?

[@paracelsus9510]

"oh I'm embarrassed, time to die." I don't think like that, I'm like PAN PAN PAN I dropped my lighter how am I going to smoke this cigar?

[@747-pilot]

I'm not going to "monday morning quarterback" this guy. Yes, some of what you guys have said might be true, but we can't get into his mind and don't know what exactly happened. And yes, his decision making was very poor, but we don't know if it was because of embarrassment, arrogance, pride or any such thing. While I can't be sure, my most likely take from listening to the conversation was, that he probably got panicked and nervous about a variety of things, and then that lead to a CHAIN of poor decisions, leading to him ultimately getting SPATIALLY DISORIENTED in the clouds, at which point NOTHING could have saved him, due to him being a low-time pilot with virtually no IFR time, which means he did not have the necessary experience to recover from that situation! First off, he might have have felt guilty for getting himself and his daughters in this predicament, leading to the chain of bizarre actions he took! His statement to controllers about "not wanting to mess with the weather and get out of the poor weather" is very telling! He was panicked and just wanted to "get outta there" without realizing that he does not know how far or where the "poor weather" extends to!! This is, of course, the worst decision he could have made, and most likely led to the tragedy! His best course of action, as others on here have suggested, would have been to ask for guidance to the nearest airport and get that plane down RIGHT AWAY! Spatial disorientation, as most of you know, is deadly and the person is generally unaware that its happening to them. This is exactly what was determined to be the cause of the JFK Jr. crash as well! There have even been crashes where experienced airline pilots have gotten spatially disoriented!! It is very hard to ignore what the brain is telling you through your physical senses, even though that information might be false. It takes good discipline, training and experience to be able to ignore that and follow the instruments!

[@chriswilliams2652]

As a father of two beautiful daughters, this breaks my heart. Knowing the trust those sweet souls had in their daddy to keep them safe and he took such a risk, I just can't fathom. Risk your own life on the belief you have in your own skills but for God sake don't take risks with people that depend upon you to keep them safe because they don't know enough about flying to know they are NOT safe. Just so very sad.

[@alexs3187]

You’re never really just risking your own life though. There’s always a chance you can kill someone on the ground.

[@golfswingbodymechanicsinte2854]

Pilot, don't be a hero, don't be a fool with my life. Really tragic and 100% preventable.

[@BogWraith1]

Well said Chris, I couldn't agree with you more!

[@QuaxC42]

Thats the reason why I fly myself most .

[@dannicatzer305]

Yeah, I'd love to fly myself but under no circumstances would I fly my children anywhere even if I had 10,000 hours under my belt and was the worlds greatest pilot.. Plane had a parachute too but apparently he was either too close to the ground to make it effective or it deployed itself as he crashed..

[@maxtanicfilms]

Pride is a dangerous thing when your flying airplanes. As pilots we must humble ourselves to our capabilities.

[@DonLafontaine62]

No kidding! He WAY overdid it. Put his family at risk...

[@davidmccullar3226]

N.b Nhb

[@madwax4771]

Sovereignty Soldier - Ha ha

[@kirubeltesfaye2933]

That’s good !!!

[@texNoz]

I don't think most VFR pilots really get just how difficult flying in the soup really is. It's hard. It's really hard. My instrument instructor used to take me up, put me under the foggles and do aerobatics until my lunch was in my throat and then say "your plane". It wasn't until I was really in IMC layers that I fully understood and learned to fly instruments. Your brain starts trying to reference cloud layers to horizons and if you have the leans at all, you'll think your instruments are just dead wrong. Your brain will physically try to fight your efforts by shutting down your motor coordination. Simple tasks like pushing buttons and turning knobs in the right direction can become very difficult. I'm not trying to be an armchair quarterback on this guys poor decisions as he and his passengers have already paid that price in full, but I greatly dislike the term IFR "training" when it really should be IFR "conditioning". the mechanics of it really isn't that hard. Conditioning your brain to ignore spacial disorientation takes a lot of time and practice. My advice to every VFR pilot out there is to keep a pair of foggles handy and if you find yourself in the soup, put em on and standard rate yourself back whence you came. Looking outside will get you a severe case of dead very quickly. Now comes my rant.... I still don't understand how anyone with such a modern cockpit could possibly get into that situation. Complex coupled AP, GNSS, auto wing leveling, ADS, XM weather, PARACHUTES. By pushing buttons the damn thing will almost land itself on any of the published approaches at just about any airport in the world, all while showing you the terrain, obstacles, flight box directors and a Bitchin' Betty to boot. Hell, even yaw damping is becoming the norm in experimentals. METARS, NOTAMS and ATIS used to scream off a freakin dot-matrix printer at the speed of smell in the FBO surrounded by cranky old pilots drinking black coffee, wanting to head out. Modern pilots would suck shit if they had to fly with Loran-C, RNAV triangulation, paper approach plates, paper maps while having an old E6B slide computer tucked under their leg and a red pen light between their teeth. When I see things like this, I almost feel like technology and incompetence are on the same line going up a slope chart..... but i guess it's always been that way. If there's a hole in the ground to be made, someone will find a way. :/

[@Stewbob112]

TheTextralian this was really helpful to read. I’m considering getting my PPL. Flying just looks so damn fun to me. I’ve probably watched 60+ hours of aviation videos and case study videos within the last week. I keep watching these and seeing that most people meet an unfortunate end after not being fully IFR “conditioned.” It’s very sad. I keep thinking that it has to be super important to get trained for IFR, and I just don’t see why anyone would A. Not do it, and B. Go out in horrible conditions. It just seems too damn important. Any advice for someone looking into aviation and trying to be the safest pilot I can be?

[@maxbootstrap7397]

@@Stewbob112 : Yeah, move out west where haze is rare and clear skies are common. I took my first 2 or 3 lessons back east and said "screw this" and took no more lessons. During those 2 or 3 lessons I told the CFI next to me that "no way is this VFR ... I can't see far enough, plus everything on the ground looks pretty much the same so I never know where I am". His reply was "if we followed the VFR rules strictly around here, we could never train students". Yeah, no kidding. That was the end of flying for me. A few months later I moved out west and flying was *TOTALLY* different. And I do mean *TOTALLY* different. Once I got at altitude I could see 200 miles in every direction, not 200 meters. Sure, there were clouds here and there ... as well as lakes, rivers, mountains and all sorts of other identifiable objects. But you can see the clouds, even rainstorms with lightning flashing when you are still 10, 20, 50 miles away from them. Which means, you can fly around storms just as you can fly around mountains. All of a sudden flying got a million times easier ... and a billion times more fun. If you fly because that's your job, then you need to be competent and comfortable flying in IMC, especially if you live "back east" (which means everywhere east of central Colorado or New Mexico to me). If you fly because you love to fly ... well, as far as I'm concerned flying is not fun unless you can see beautiful scenery from above. Which means, no point in flying in IMC conditions. Yes, if you fly long distances you will eventually encounter situations where you can't find an easy way around bad weather (having started in good weather, as always). And in those cases you land and wait it out. And there are endless places to land, so that's not a danger. What is a danger is trying to sneak through little bits of IMC because you think probably there is more VMC "just around the bend" so to speak. Screw that. Land somewhere, get a nice meal, get a good night sleep in a motel in the very rare case where good weather doesn't appear before dusk. Out in good weather country this doesn't happen often enough to severely impact your life or your wallet. But crashing your airplane does. If you have a modern airplane with modern "glass cockpit" avionics including GPS, autopilot, 3D synthetic vision, moving maps, ADS-B out, ADS-B in and such ... in theory a pilot can sneak through little bits of IMC without much risk *IF* he takes advantage of all his instrumentation *AND* is absolutely immune to trusting his senses more than his instruments in IMC conditions. Frankly, I think there should be an intermediate rating between VFR and IFR for pilots who *HAVE* all this advanced instrumentation and occasionally might benefit by flying for short periods through IMC. For example, let's say you leave from an airport in good solid VFR conditions and your target airport is in good solid VFR conditions, and the best and safest way to get from A to B is to climb through a thousand feet of clouds to get to clear blue VFR skies above that cloud layer. A pilot with this kind of IMC training and practice *and instrumentation* can safely tell the autopilot in his airplane to fly towards a specific heading at a given altitude (above the clouds) ... and the airplane will do that. If by small chance his autopilot fails, a pilot with this intermediate IMC rating would be able to glue his eyes to the attitude display and 3D synthetic vision on his display and fly the airplane back into VFR, or to the closest airport or airstrip. What such a pilot would not be trained for is quite a bit, including: IFR takeoffs, IFR departures, IFR routing, IFR approach and IFR landings. The reason being, he does none of that. He flies in VFR virtually all the time, with the exception of skirting marginal conditions for a short period of time. The reason this works fairly well is that he has two ways to fly fairly safely in IMC. First, his autopilot can take him where he wants to go, and second, if all else fails, he can fly the airplane via visual reference to his advanced instrumentation. Unless his entire collection of instruments fail, he can essentially fly in simulated VFR conditions by looking at his 3D synthetic vision display, which shows terrain (with warnings when headed towards terrain that is higher than the airplane altitude) and shows other aircraft (via ADS-B out+in), and shows airports and airstrips nearby. Unfortunately, it doesn't appear the FAA has any interest in offering this intermediate rating. But at least VFR pilots who have this advanced instrumentation have ways to get themselves out of marginal or bad situations they should never have gotten into in the first place (and must spank themselves thoroughly for doing so when on the ground). Some pilots (almost all of whom has IFR ratings of course) will object to what I say here and say having all this advanced instrumentation is dangerous because it lures VFR pilots into IMC conditions "because they think they can escape with their lives". While this will obviously be true in a few cases (with people who are inherently irresponsible in the first place), far more VFR pilots will be able to save their butts in cases where they legitimately got caught in IMC while trying to be prudent. In my opinion, this should rarely happen "out west" due to the different nature of weather conditions. However, from what I remember of flying "back east", the whole prospect of flying VFR seems like russian roulette. The best advice is "don't push it" and "don't be stupid". The second best advice is "get great modern instrumentation in your airplane". The third best advice is get IMC training. You can probably convince an CFI to give you lots and lots of training and practice flying through IMC conditions. Hell, you can probably tell him you intend to get an IFR, but want to first get twice the normal amount of instruction flying in IMC conditions *before* you move on to all that other complex ATC-instruction-following stuff that is necessary to get an IFR rating. I don't see any reason a VFR pilot cannot become a better IMC pilot than most IFR pilots via lots of training and practice in IMC with a CFI sitting beside you. And there is nothing illegal in doing so. Then ... just in case you ever get trapped ... you are just as safe as any IFR pilot ... as long as you can find an airport with VFR conditions down low to land at. And since the vast majority of airports and airstrips have no ATC, you will always have a boatload of airports and airstrips to land at... assuming any have VFR conditions. And if you can't find any? Well, you definitely flew on a day that you should not have flown, and must spank yourself viciously after you land. But land safely you will, because you will contact ATC at the nearest big airport with long runways, confess what a moron you are, and let ATC fly you down to the runway. That shouldn't be very difficult either, because you have GPS and 3D synthetic vision to let you see where you are and where you are doing. Plus you have ATC to help you, or at least keep other airplanes out of your way. In my case, I intend to never get anywhere near IMC conditions. But if the impossible happens, I have all that modern instrumentation to help me extract my butt from disaster. One more thing. Anyone who is not good at situation awareness or staying rational in dangerous situations should stay at least 25 miles away from the nearest IMC. Or just don't be a pilot in the first place, because seriously, only people with rational minds and good situational awareness and natively good decision making behavior should pilot an airplane... even in VFR.

[@carlzimmerman8700]

Thank you for this post, I have watched so many of these videos of VFR into IFR and just couldn't understand how someone in a modern plane with all this gear could just lose it from flying into clouds. Your explanation is the best I have ever heard about the problems with IFR.

[@irn2flying]

I've got 40 years of flying under my belt now, and earn a living as an international pilot. But, that almost didn't happen. At 30 hours total time 1.2 hours of instrument training, I had a weather system move in unexpectedly while trying to complete my second 100 miles leg over a long range of 3500 foothills in CA. Long story short, I got into the soup, and got vertigo while trying to triangulate my position on a map, to make sure I was clear of the hills while IFR... Somehow I was able to ignore my brain screaming at me that I was in a bank, when I was straight and level, and vise versa. Almost died yanking and banking...Scared the crap out of myself. It's hard to describe how disorienting it is, and how all but some basic reactions remain when you're that scared. RIP.

[@phillippasteur3904]

That's right! I forgot that Cirruses have chutes! Unbelievabe!

[@billb.2673]

ATC: Are you IFR qualified? Pilot: I’m in IFR training. Really all you need to know.

[@windsofmarchjourneyperrytr2823]

I think they should have told him to come down.

[@michaelbee2165]

@@windsofmarchjourneyperrytr2823 He chose not to, more than once.

[@lizettewanzer8650]

"I'm in IFR training." So in other words, the answer to ATC's question was a resounding NO, I'm not IFR qualified." Just say so!

[@TraconWizard]

@@windsofmarchjourneyperrytr2823 not their job, his. He's PIC.

[@rchn1315]

Softening language you hear all the time now, along with participation trophies. Physics does not care about your feelings or perceived competency. This outcome was practically guaranteed, unfortunately for those directly and indirectly affected by this pilot's decisions.

[@mattpope1746]

With the recent attention from the Kobe Bryant incident, I’ve watched several of these VFR to IMC videos. They have convinced me that, if there’s any doubt at all, stay on the ground. These types of videos will save lives

[@t.w.3]

Good call. During my training back in the 90's my instructors always told me: "If there's doubt, there is NO doubt." This with regards to anything related to aviation (probably elsewhere also).

[@touristguy87]

"They have convinced me that, if there’s any doubt at all, stay on the ground" ...why would anyone have any doubt about getting into a light aircraft with a pilot who is barely qualified? You have to understand something about people who die in accidents. They were stupid! Seriously either stupid or very unlucky or a combination thereof. Fatally so.

[@dondajulah4168]

@@touristguy87 That is a very foolish and unfair statement, especially in this instance when you are talking about a daughter flying with her dad who she probably looked up to her entire life and saw as larger than life. You might want to work on developing some empathy and compassion. It might not seem worth it at the moment, but it pays off down the road. As for the Kobe Bryant incident, the pilot there was highly qualified so so much for your theory on what causes people to die in accidents.

[@touristguy87]

@@dondajulah4168 go away, hater of truth and reality

[@dondajulah4168]

@@touristguy87 You might want to seek counseling dude. And I'm not going anywhere, so guess you're just going to have to deal with it or block me (probably would not be your first, LOL).

[@vermin1970]

Wow, I kept saying to myself "For God's sake, make a decision and land somewhere"

[@Sebastopolmark]

I TOTALLY agree. That is painful to listen to. Such a needless end of life.

[@dm_grant]

It's a perfect example of why aeronautical decision making is so important.

[@bryandelmonte2513]

Yes. Very painful. I'll tell you - I've been looking at learning to fly... I've been watching videos... and the idea of flying with friends or family any kind of distance at all and not being IFR rated scares the crap out of me. Except for a tooling excursion around the airport... I've watched now too many of these videos where things start ok... and then turn to crap quickly. Or things are VFR and then poof - things turn to crap - it's IMC - and there is all this scrambling. I can't imagine ever taking off at all EVER in anything that comes close to IMC conditions anywhere along my journey... every video on KZbin is either "OMG I thought we were dead..." or "and the plane crashes into the dirt"... I mean seriously - it scares the crap out of me going up, not having IFR, it turns to crap, you're screwed... in the soup... have no idea how to navigate.. have no idea what to do... disoriented... and boom - you kill everyone onboard including yourself... And it all seems so needless too... if you take the time to get IFR rated... this wouldn't have happened... I mean it's not like the Cirrus doesn't have the capability... if he had even some modicum of IFR facility - he'd have been able to fly fine... I watch and listen to this guy and I'm like "man - what the hell is the matter with you. You need that bird on the ground like it was yesterday. Quit dicking around and land the plane." Of course... he never does. Flight Chops calls this "get there itus"... I don't know if that's something everybody says... but it sure seems to be the #1 cause of getting people killed...

[@vermin1970]

You shouldn't let this put you off flying. I agree, take the time, get experienced and learn IFR before you take your family up. The reason most videos that show up on KZbin end badly is because the majority of flights that go without incident would be boring to watch all day. :-)

[@vermin1970]

^^ this

[@joannescholl7216]

My heart breaks for the lives lost in this tragic accident. God bless them all. The older I get the more aware and grateful I have become of what a great VFR private pilot my Dad was, not because he had exceptional flying skills but because he had great judgement. It was 1962 and our family was planning to fly from California to his hometown in Arkansas. We would arrive at San Carlos airport, bags packed (literally supermarket paper bags to keep the weight down) and then would have to turn around and go home because of the weather conditions between San Carlos, California and Elko, Nevada our first stop. We finally were able to take off on our third attempt to depart California and all went well, we had a wonderful trip. God bless you Dad and thank you for not having "Get-there-itis."

[@steveo1kinevo]

You can learn a lot from watching videos like this. Very poor decision making on the part of this pilot. Thanks for making these types of videos.

[@nickmanning5455]

+steveo1kinevo my boy stevo. lurking in the ASI videos. They are a great resource. When's the next video coming out man? I really enjoy your videos. What kind of content is on the near horizon ?

[@zachbarker5354]

steveo1kinevo hey watch ur vids all the time keep it up! ;)

[@bobbypaluga4346]

steveo1kinevo Amen, no plan, indecision, .clearly in over his head and unfamiliar with the area. Apparently he didn't even have a map of electronic navigation tools. Very sad, the man took on more than he was capable of, the passengers had no choice. I've got family stories if overconfidence and inexperience with a little keeping up with the Jones's tossed in. Equals three dead, pilot (uncle) and two sons, wife survived, as terrible suffering at Brooks Army Hospital Burn Unit. His carelessness and failure to plan, maybe even showing off, had a terrible result.

[@bobbypaluga4346]

steveo1kinevo Yes thank you, I've learned a great deal in what not to do as well as what you should do. The series is excellent, you all do a great job. It's truly sad that with so little experience a gentleman would attempt to risk his life as well as his passengers young lives. What could have given this man so much confidence based on so little training and so few hours in the cockpit? Turning back embarrassing? Maybe in his case, fellow pilots out of the suburban airport where I trained and now fly would not look at this situation and the need to get out of this area and head back home as embarrassing. Rest In Peace folks, life is fragile. Wouldn't this aircraft be equipped with a parachute?

[@cmack864]

So true! I try to watch any I can to learn from the mistakes of others

[@josephbrooks9409]

Flying around south Florida one sunny afternoon, my friend (the PIC) and I encountered several thunderstorms in the area around our return destination. Once the few rain drops began a bit more frequent, while still fully VFR, we said "Nope, time to 180". Landed at an alternate and discovered a great little "greasy spoon" at the FBO with a superb cheeseburger platter! An hour and a half later, we were wheels down at our intended under sunny Florida VFR once again. ALWAYS better to be safe and sometimes, God will send you pleasant little surprises like a cheeseburger in Melbourne, FL (If I remember correctly...this was around 1986).

[@bogota909]

Amen

[@dfw_motorrad1329]

Ah, Florida thunderstorms. I remember those. It'll go from clear skies and 90 degrees to seeming like you're underwater with the amount of rain falling, then back to clear skies, 90 degrees, 90% humidity. All in the span of 20 minutes. And seemingly at the same exact time every single day. Right around 2-3 PM in Orlando where I was.

[@jaimhaas5170]

I love happy stories like this....life is far too fragile to gamble.

[@ejcheli]

Hell yea man! A lot of people I know think I'm too cautious (or perhaps a wuss even) but I refuse to even fly if the weather looks like it will be bad. I fly for fun, so if it ain't sunny and clear, I stay on the ground. Its not worth it!

[@cmartin_ok]

Great story... shouldn't you always have a "plan B" and maybe a "plan C" in case of weather issues (and other potential problems) ? RIP to the 4 who lost their lives in this needless crash

[@tadeuszlufik]

It appears as though he was more worried about incriminating himself for getting into a bad situation that he was too apprehensive to ask for help and at the same time, unaware how dire the consequences were that began to mount with his continued flight into IMC. This should be a lesson to everyone that when you start to feel the way this pilot did, that you simply ask for help. If you dont learn your lesson, you will become the lesson.

[@markjennings2315]

Anyone watching this for education, please always remember to ask for help if you are caught out by weather or systems failures. ATC are there to help you and keep you safe. ATC have helped me many times with vectors, radar talk downs and even steering me around CB's when I lost my primary gyro instrument when IFR. The controllers go home feeling they have made a difference and you and your passengers go home safe!!

[@davidelfezouaty9668]

Watching these series was exactly why I went from private to instrument training. Every pilot should go for their IFR rating. It will literally save your life.

[@bertjilk3456]

It’s so refreshing to see someone still knows how to use ‘literally’ correctly.

[@DrWhom]

Strangely, in a lot of accidents were pilots got caught in meteorological instrument conditions, they were actually instrument rated. So another factor is suddenly getting caught up in tricky situations that you do not have a whole lot of experience with.

[@TheMarioMen1]

One time I was flying the ILS down to mins into San Antonio at night in a T-6, that was when I realized how bad the leans could get. Felt like I was in a constant right bank because the strobes would reflect off the clouds and disorientate everything. Turned them off and glued my eyeballs to the instruments til breaking out right at 200’

[@dannycreech4177]

Damn that sounds scary, probably all alone too huh?

[@jsugar72]

I used to fly a little 172 steam gauge with a decent bendex/garman autopilot and this airport right next to where the plane i flew was hangered , would let me practice the ILS approach it was great. Definitely a learning curve I I didn't always capture the glide slope and keeping the needle where it needs to be takes some practice cause often times you might find yourself to low or high at the markers, but so fun when you can do it.

[@networth8754]

My father was an over confident VFR pilot flying in IFR conditions one day and was lucky to get the plane on the ground. My mother never flew with him again. A good decision on her part.

[@lisaadams6753]

Yes, there should be a warning in all airports-- ladies and kids do not get into an airplane with a narcissist!!!!!

[@SqueakerAlpha]

when I had a fairly new license my instructor always said if you have to keep a schedule you should fly commercial or take a bus. The airport I used regularly had pilots in small planes sleeping on the floor because of weather.

[@antiNuetron]

I wish my instructor told me that. I had to learn the hard way. Since then I've seen that even the airlines can't always keep schedules.

[@srmj71]

Each time i see this video... It becomes more and more obvious that this pilot represents everything that a good pilot should not be. He was completely unprepared for the situation he found himself in. I know it's easy to talk about someone who can't talk back, but I find myself stunned at the lack of preparation and the insane chances he took with family on the plane.i really wish he would've had a chance to learn from this insane flight.

[@freqeist]

im not a pilot and I dont fly but these videos are interesting and definitely an eye opener.

[@django1364]

same here, lately I have been having lots of thought about flying, even called a Local Flight school to inquire about a discovery flight.

[@woodsplitter3274]

I agree. I like the rational and logical conclusions.

[@MACcopsnK__Coronado]

Same here

[@sylvesterbrock1905]

Haven’t flown since 1953. Newly wed, expecting. Did a roll in a PT-13 and While inverted my seat belt gave a little. Open cockpit, like a PT 17 only different engine. Thought it had failed and me without a parachute. (Cost ten bucks whether needed or not). Scared me a lot. Well, I grabbed a handhold, finished the roll, and put it back on terra fir a. The thought that I might leave a pregnant widow was too much. I just hung up my jacket and enjoyed another 67 years. Sadly the last 20 without my beloved.

[@django1364]

@Southy cool, how was it?

[@samborlon]

This was a clear case of pressure to save face in front of the daughter's boyfriend. Very unfortunate.

[@jefsel881]

I flew a similar course with similar weather in a VFR aircraft. As the ceiling started coming down I looked for an escape route. I was at 1000 ft agl in skud. Knowing that turning around was my only other option. I tried to beat the weather but got delayed and now I was in it. It’s videos like this that hammer home the importance of judgements and consequences. I saw an opening just to my left and headed there. I landed at Morris, Ill. Once on the ground I talked with someone at the small office there. Meanwhile the weather moved in and raining. The people there allowed me to park in their EAA chapter hanger out of the rain.They got me a ride to a local hotel about two miles away. The next morning was beautiful, sunny with a blue sky. I called in sick to work and took my time flying home about an hour away….. in beautiful weather. Having an IFR equipped aircraft with auto pilot is a temptation I do not want. Can’t imagine the families grief and a funeral was probably on a sunny clear day. The risk and desicions this fellow made are so out of balence with the outcome.

[@banjo2019]

Well said.

[@RRRRobbbb]

I wonder what the last few seconds of your life are like when you realize you and two of your kids are about to die because of your own bad decisions.

[@zyrrhos]

Sadly, it's rather common, isn't it? I think the public in general became aware of this when JFK Jr died. And you know their family members probably go up with them reluctantly, only half-trusting their "I know what I'm doing" protestations.

[@aaaht3810]

@@zyrrhos I was thinking about JFK Jr. as well.

[@NihongoGuy]

Ego kills.

[@denslowburhans9260]

Resignation.

[@touristguy87]

....it's only a bad decision when you die. If he had survived, he would have just chalked it up to his own genius and skill.

[@MrFg1980]

3:31 says it all: I just flew over your field, I didn't realize I was going that fast. ...can't keep up to the airplane...

[@davidmotter5140]

Like i said more money then brains

[@albertpatterson3675]

Just found this channel and it only reinforces my lifelong fear of flying. In 1949 when I was six years old, I saw a stunt pilot fly straight into the ground not 100 yards in front of me. His engine literally broke lose from the airframe. His name was Billy Fischer from Decorah, Iowa, a 23 year old World War II pilot. It happened in Jackson, Miss. I'm 77 years old and I think about it all the time, especially when I hear a plane overhead. Something that traumatic stays with you forever.

[@mrivucu]

There are pictures online of this exact event from the Detroit free press it happened at the Jackson Mississippi Air show April 26 1949

[@Deadfoot-Dan]

Imagine surviving the war and dying this way.

[@TheAirplaneDriver]

His ground track is a good representation of his thought process....all over the place with no idea where to go or what to do. But, the really scary part is that this pilot could not acknowledge even to himself (let alone ATC) that he had an issue and needed help. That attitude has no place in the cockpit.

[@peterstecroix7984]

Hi I am a retired commercial pilot with over 30+ years of experience. This is very sad . But I have always believed that all pilot licences private or commercial should be instrument rated . With yearly recurrent training. Being instrument trained and always current has saved me many times on IFR and even VFR flights.

[@buckmurdock2500]

Unfortunately, that concept doesn't ring true. If you look at the Nall Report data, the majority of VFR into IMC accidents happen with an instrument rated pilot on board. Just holding the rating is one thing, being current and qualified is totally different. Requiring instrument rated pilots to be annually current is a non-starter, AOPA will vehemently oppose such a requirement.

[@user-ip7rt8mg7w]

My life's motto! My instructor told me if I wasn't going to become IR that he was not gonna to train me. That was 37 years ago. I don't fly anymore I enjoyed it for almost 30 years. Seeing how many people have lost their lives to this incipid way of being behind the yoke frustrates me to this day. It seems like it's still the biggest issue at hand. It should be a law. IR Planes with IR trained pilots would cut down on this crap immensely. Thanks Bruce I.

[@keith2964]

This is an example of ignorance,bad judgment and experience. Sad. It's hard to imagine but can be related to the way people drive cars nowadays.

[@gbigsangle3044]

Wow, this guy was a case study for how not to fly. He violated IMC as a VFR pilot....then got hardheaded about flying around in the clouds. He eventually managed to get disoriented and killed everyone. What a total tragedy....

[@drizler]

Somewhat similar to Kennedy in 2000

[@Diax1324]

I don't get it. How do you get disoriented when your instruments clearly display your attitude and heading? How was he navigating at all? I really don't understand, even with disorientation, how this happens. Your attitude indicator says your pointing at the ground. Un-do that. Are these guys really just that stupid?

[@speedomars]

@@Diax1324 Without training and discipline...a pilot can panic in solid IMC (loss of horizon) and ignore or not believe what the instruments say.

[@Diax1324]

@@speedomars ...Jesus christ. If your vacuum goes without visual, you're pretty much fucked anyways. May as well rely on your equipment. Man. Thats insane.

[@ducky8075]

@@Diax1324 Search up spatial disorientation.

[@depj1000]

I am not a pilot but my Grandfather was and I flew with him a lot. He was returning home from somewhere and he was headed into a bad thunderstorm between him and home. He found an airport and landed and had my Grandmother drive there and pick him up. He later went back and got the plane when there was better conditions. He said that the attitude if I have to get there is the worst thing that a pilot can get into. We lost a couple friends in the Flying farmers here in Colorado due to the same situation. Its sad that people just cant learn a little patients. Tomorrow is another day.

[@depj1000]

Another note about my grandfather was if it was too windy he would not fly. if the windsock was sticking straight out he wouldnt go. it had to be a nice day out to fly. He ended flying with over 4000 hours in both a Piper Tri Pacer and a Comanche.

[@iwaswrongabouteveryhthing]

he was smart

[@dudley5658]

I’m betting his daughters and the boyfriend were more aware of gravity of the situation than he was.

[@TehNetherlands]

I'm pretty sure he was aware of gravity.

[@alexs3187]

@@TehNetherlands he was in denial.

[@MrTubeWizard]

@@TehNetherlands He was certainly aware when his plane was falling out of the sky

[@danielwanner8708]

@@TehNetherlands Not at all

[@dannicatzer305]

@@TehNetherlands He was perhaps not wanting to scare everyone in the plane so pretended to be calm..

[@wallacegrommet9343]

I'm only a sailor, but one lengthy experience in bright fog without good radar took all the bravado out of me

[@eracer1111]

I've been in very dense sea fog WITH a good radar. It was still unnerving. At least I could slow down. Pilots don't have that luxury.

[@benphillips1454]

Lived in both the Rockies and Appalachian mountains. Driving in bad fog is disorienting enough. I couldn't imagine piloting in it.

[@carolynmiles9281]

I consider myself lucky that I had an instructor that would play the what if game on almost every lesson after I had about 20 hours. Things like "What would you do if your control cable broke? Rudder, elevator, or ailerons.". Answer: Rudder, keep turns slow to avoid excessive uncoordinated banks. Elevator, use the trim and power settings for climbs or descents. if trim fails move seat back or forward to change CG. Ailerons: opening a door increases drag on that side causing a bank to begin, When you reach the desired bank, close the door and the plane will stay at that bank. When you need to level off, open the other door till level. This only works on small single engine aircraft. If in a twin engine plane, offsetting the power on the engines will also work. In case I found myself in the situation which this pilot did, he would put an IFR training hood on me and have me close my eyes. He would then go through a series of turns, climbs, and descents then have me open my eyes but keep my head down. Then he would say an altitude and heading he wanted and I had to achieve them without looking outside. It taught me to trust the instruments more than my feelings about what the plane was doing. Far removed from IFR training, but if you mess up and get caught blind, you can at least maintain control of the aircraft and follow ATC instructions to get you out of trouble.

[@aeromagnumtv1581]

Same here. Hated it at the time, but now.👍👍👍

[@matthewstein1280]

Not a pilot, just a LONG time aviation fan, and have been in little 2 seaters since we owned an Aeronca Champ when I was about 7. It seems to me if the weather is so bad that you cannot see anything out the window anyway then by God that artificial horizon, altimeter, compass, and airspeed indicator have to become your eyes, IFR or not. With the exceptions where the instruments are lying to you (Air France 447) you have to have and use good information and use that damned radio. The radio equals other people's brains and info, and again, with some exceptions, you can usually count on the person at the other end of the radio to give you the best info and advice they can when you ask for it. Flying over a populated area means you are not an island and you are not alone. Hell, ground controllers have walked non-pilots through landing aircraft they've never been in before, much less flown so all options are on the table. VERY talented and experienced jet fighter pilots ask for help when they need it, and there is no reason not to do so. Leave the ego on the tarmac and get the job done.

[@jackrillema7423]

Put the nose down and go straight ahead

[@sidviscous5959]

sounds like a paranoid flight instructor

[@jackrillema7423]

Primary instructors gave forced landings when recovering from a forced landing

[@patfarra627]

Very first part of Navy flight is VFR. After you get to jets you spend lots of time under the bag until you get instrument rated

[@davidwheatcroft2797]

I have experienced a very similar situation. After my Navex scrubbed again and again, I flew thru my first cloud, intent on completing my mission. Then a bigger one; fine. In the third one, things went sideways - speed increasing; altimeter unwinding. Pulling back just made things worse. Terrifying; wanting to quit, but nobody to help, then the calm words of my instructor coming back, "Its not difficult. Power back to idle to reduce the rate of descent. Roll wings level using the Artificial Horizon. Pull hard. Pray! " Zooming back up, the little bird high in the blue. Trimming as the speed bled off. ALIVE! Facing your death changes you. I was 19. CAVU skies to all aviators!

[@davedennis6042]

Everything this pilot was trying to avoid came true. His daughter did not get to college, he got stuck far away from home and he didn't get back home. Make your plans and stick with them.

[@geoffreybradford]

Plus, he didn't have to pay for any possible wedding between daughter and the boyfriend who was onboard. So, there's that.

[@alphasportstv]

Problem is he DID stick to his plans despite common sense, that's what killed him and his family.

[@thegteam4349]

I’m not a pilot, but I love these videos. If I saw “marginal VRF” at my destination I would interpret that as “no fly”. Especially if my kids and someone else’s kid was on board???? My God, I just don’t get it. So damn sad.

[@rykehuss3435]

Marginal VFR? Yeah I'm good gonna take the train or something. Marginal VFR means marginal chance at not dying.

[@2Tool4School]

Or get instrument rated / some serious instrument training at the very least. Pilots who never bother to do this are like people who never learn to swim driving speedboats, except worse because they put their passengers at risk too.

[@DillonGauthier]

@@rykehuss3435 To me, having never been behind a yoke, marginal VFR means marginal IFR, in which case if I were not IFR rated, I wouldn't assume I could wing it.

[@davidmalone9022]

Couldn't have said it better. As soon as this started and we hear the weather conditions, my first thought, knowing how it ended, was, "You idiot." And as you said, especially with your two daughters and a boyfriend. And, it's only a 3.5 hour drive to Du Page from Marion. The other thing I can't believe is that a CFI talked to him about it and apparently didn't advise against going.

[@thegteam4349]

@@davidmalone9022 I agree David, when I was young and single I did a lot of stupid stuff. Stuff that I look back on and realize I’m very lucky to be alive. When I got married, well….I still did stupid stuff, lol. But when I became a father, everything changed. I now had an obligation to be there for my son, and I couldn’t imagine him living with that sort of pain, especially because his dad was just being stupid and reckless, lol. I guess we live and learn don’t we?

[@dlb300zx]

He's in trouble when he first called Dupage.. Sounds confused from 1st transmit

[@LegendaryKev]

I'm with you there - a pilot just has to have the guts to call it off right away if things don't look right. I don't think passengers mind when a pilot is careful. The old wisdom has stuck with me over the years: Safety depends far more on a pilot's judgement than his/her skill. If there's an accident waiting out there, just don't show up.

[@Dr.TJ_Eckleburg]

Yep from the first second he opened his mouth he sounded like he was confused and totally unsure of himself.

[@aeromagnumtv1581]

@über alles rennen I felt the controller did speak in simple terms. He was actually very clear, concise and patient.

[@n721sw]

I don't think he had an IFR rating or much knowledge of it. @über alles rennen

[@DirtNerds]

he should never had been that close to dupage he should have landed well before he got in IMC conditions. It is never worth taking chances with others lives

[@blancolirio]

His fate was sealed by 1:56 in this video....200 hour Cirrus pilot , Thanksgiving weekend, launching in known MVFR conditions. Thanks for posting AOPA!

[@prodrift101]

blancolirio I don’t understand how he could lose control of the aircraft and spiral out. Couldn’t he see his vsi screaming at him or his airspeed climbing...I just don’t get it

[@ronparker5589]

Situational awareness. Loss of concentration on the job at hand. Failure to act when the ego is trying its best to distract you to your death. I watched a skydiver spiral into the ground as we were boarding a King Air for a jump. When we landed, we all asked about the guy. They said EMS brought him back a couple times and asked him what went wrong. He said he was pissed off because he had missed a point in a formation - and that's all he could think about as he flew his fabric wing directly into the ground. They couldn't bring him back the third time.

[@prodrift101]

Excellent point and a good reason not to be egotistical with ATC when flying

[@josephbrooks9409]

That slow spiral and loss of control is very common...part of IFR training is trusting your instruments instead of kinesthetic sense (aka, "seat of the pants") which can deceive you when no visual cues and inner ears provide no useful/false information. I've trained under the hood where the artificial horizon was gently banked in one direction but I could swear I was leaning another.

[@AndrewWatson975]

@@ronparker5589 like he would actually remeber what happend during ems trying to revive him. Cool story

[@redrocket4853]

I've been flying for 27 years, have over 2600 hours logged and IfR certified for 25 of those years, I've had over 300 hours logged "in the soup" some of those hours were 2-3 hour flights hand flying a C-182 in the soup with only a Loran, no iPad, no moving map displays, it's exhausting, I still follow the "personal minimums" I set for myself that my examiner suggested, 1500 feet and 3 miles , ILS or no ILS , if it's forecasted to be any lower than that I scrub the flight, and that's why I'm still here to post this.

[@nonnobissolum]

Pretty sure they were being polite when they titled this scenario "In Too Deep" instead of the more accurate "In Way Over Your Head and Unwilling to Admit It." Pilots like him are a menace to airspace, to say nothing of the tragedy the befalls their passengers.

[@toddlavigne6441]

this guy did not have the right personality to fly planes.....more concerned about his family obligations well that didn't work out too well LOL

[@applesugar2051]

That’s what Kobe said

[@Ramiiam]

Tragic. Must have been awful in that cabin with three people depending on him, and knowing how badly he screwed up. If he only he had fessed up and declared an emergency, those controllers would have done everything short of flying the plane for him. But he kept sending them mixed signals, pretending that he was in control of the situation. That autopilot could at least have kept the wings level while he worked out a plan with ATC.

[@LuccaValsamis]

Ramiiam No need for an emergency. Just focus on flying rather than worrying about geting stuck at an airport. Telling the truth to the ATC is also a great choice

[@jennydiazvigneault5548]

ATC did a good job, the pilot just kept changing things up despite their help.

[@sarowie]

+Lucca_V declaring an emergency has one benefit: The pilot would force him self to make landing "as safe and soon as possible" to his top primary mission and ATC would keep an eye on him. It´s better to discuss what went wrong later then to be unable to do that.

[@ronparker5589]

Mixed signals precisely. All from mixed thinking. He wasn't flying the plane. He was trying to get somewhere.

[@wadesworld6250]

@@LuccaValsamis A VFR pilot in IMC is an absolute emergency. There are countless stories of pilot deaths due to reluctance to declare an emergency and thinking they can "handle it." Declare the emergency, get maximum help and get down.

[@6yjjk]

Training for his IR and this is what passes for radio work? My God.

[@RepoManInIndy]

I’m about to start my training for my private pilots license. I meant to start it last spring but decided to put it off. I took an interest in aviation, at first because I was interested in aviation accidents. I was and still am intrigued about the way an air accident can shape the future safety of air travel. I went up for my first time with a friend of mine about 7 months ago. He’s a skilled pilot and I was amazed with his professionalism when controlling an airplane.. it was something to envy for sure. I feel like my hours and hours of researching crashes like this is something anyone who is looking to get their PPL should do.. in the air, you don’t always get the chance to learn from your mistakes.

[@cathleenrocco4804]

Sully Sullenberger said that the reason he was able to land in the Hudson is that he was constantly reading accident reports and envisioning weird situations that could happen and what the right response would be. You'll probably be an excellent pilot.

[@RepoManInIndy]

@@cathleenrocco4804 thus far I have been described as a natural.. i love it. When the throttle goes in most if the world is left behind you, when your wheels leave the ground, nothing else matters.

[@RepoManInIndy]

@@cathleenrocco4804 I can't remember who said it but one of the best quotes I've ever heard is "we must learn from the mistakes of others because we will never live long enough to make them all ourselves"

[@22vx]

As a non-pilot, even I can tell he was utterly unprepared to make any reasonable decision.

[@ianardoh6955]

Something I learned when I was training. “I’d rather be down here (on the ground) wishing I was up there than up there wishing I was down here” poignant words to be remembered. IMC is a must for pilots who want to fly A to B when weather is likely to be marginal VFR.

[@touristguy87]

...that implies that IMC is a guarantee that you won't die in IFR conditions.

[@ianardoh6955]

That’s a ridiculous statement. Common sense prevails at all times. Those words are simply something you might say when conditions deteriorate when on ground or in the sky. IMC is important in my view if you intend distance flying VFR in nothing other than CAVOK conditions for the journey.

[@rykehuss3435]

Marginal VFR means marginal chance at not dying if youre flying VFR in those conditions

[@QemeH]

11:37 - The hesitation in the voice of ATC. He knows he only has half of the picture, but is sooo close to saying: "Come on, Buddy! Make a decision and execute the plan. Nobody ever found a solution in staying up there. At least let us give you flight following! Please!"

[@BadWebDiver]

Yeah, I really love how the ATC for Du Prez (sp?) is super helpful. He deserved a commendation for the way he handled this. I hope this incident didn't burn him out.

[@jahnkaplank8626]

"Field is IFR, say your intentions" is the tower telling you to ask for SPECIAL VFR into the airspace, since the TOWER cannot legally ISSUE you special VFR clearance. You have to ask for it. It's a liability thing... Here's my advice: Never fly your loved ones until you can fly in both VFR AND IFR. Ger your instrument rating BEFORE you go blazing around the country/marginal weather. If you're in a VFR plane, but you are IFR qualified, you have a MUCH BETTER chance of surviving marginal weather because of your ability to read, understand, and follow what your instruments tell you, even if it's not certified IFR instruments. When you're a VFR only pilot in marginal VFR or IFR, you are already in an emergency situation... Treat it as such. Those Cirrus planes have great instruments. If you're in the soup and declare an emergency, and know how to use those instruments, you can manage that emergency even if you break rules about VFR vs IFR flight. You are in an emergency! Do whatever it takes to get out of it. Use ALL resources available, including flight following and vectors by approach. You don't have to land just because you're getting vectors; approach control can vector you to safe conditions and let you go after that. Use the resources; it's there for that purpose.

[@tom31ditz]

@Kaplank I wonder if this pilot, and some others, even know what resources are available?

[@toddlavigne6441]

why did this guy not fly using his instruments when in the clouds. How can you fly visually, when there's nothing to see? Not a pilot but it seems common sense. Use your speed, altitude and attitude indicators and follow the advice of ATC they'll save your ass in this type of situation.

[@toddlavigne6441]

yes, I mean driving on a dark highway at night I turn my lights on a follow the lines painted on the road. Of coarse this not a perfect analogy, but close enough. This pilot fucked and was somewhat incompetent.

[@jbizzle1966]

He was probably trying to use his ipad to find out where he was and lookup the airport chart for info. He slowly drifted to where the hsi no longer showed the horizon. He didn't know how to pull out of it.

[@ethanlau468]

@@toddlavigne6441 When you first learn to fly pilots learn to fly VFR, a lot of VFR is trusting your senses and looking outside for level flight, turns, etc. However, when you enter a cloud or IMC conditions those senses will now deceive you without proper training. Every pilot understands how the instruments work but when you have been taught for 60 hours how to fly with your senses and suddenly the senses start working against you it's inevitable that you screw up without proper training. Imagine flying straight and level but your mind and every sense in your body say you're in a turn, who do you trust then? www.askacfi.com/29639/why-is-flying-with-reference-to-instrument-difficult.htm

[@dirtcurt1]

My mechanic/pilot friend has a great saying, “when it absolutely positively has to get there overnight, DRIVE IT”.

[@kondor99999]

I solo’ed at age 15 (but haven’t flown in years) and I can tell you these lessons apply to pretty much any endeavor that involves planning, and danger.

[@davidholubetz1014]

Wow this was a great video. Hard to watch on a number of levels, one of which is that I can see myself doing what he did. Just under 200 hours, flown the Cirrus, not wanting to admit you screwed up, worried about getting trapped at an airport you won't be able to fly out of until the weather clears. It's easy to criticize the guy but what he did is fairly common. Sometimes you get lucky and sometimes you don't. I've accidentally flown into instrument meteorogical conditions (IMC). You can climb above to see better but then you are operating under instrument flight rules (IFR). You can descend below but you have to watch for terrain, obstructions and other low traffic. Best thing is to note your heading and execute a 180 degree turn. If you do this within a few minutes of losing visual contact with the ground you should be back in the green within a few minutes. Of course weather can be pretty dynamic and you may find that you are buried in the clouds. Best thing in this case (if you can't regain VFR quickly) is to let air trafffic control (ATC) know that your flight conditions have deteriorated to IMC and that you need a heading to clear skies. They will give you a heading. Ask for flight following immediately and they will make sure that you do not run into any other aircraft that are on IFR plans or that are seen on radar. ATC can also give you a heading to an airport and hand you off to the tower at that field. It's easy to get flustered in the cockpit when things start to go against you. If you in trouble, just tell ATC you need help. Tell them you want a heading, a tower frequency and the local conditions read out loud to you. They'll do it. I put a bit of blame on the ATC guys who were working this guy - in one case they tell him that the current ATIS is Victor, but our pilot doesn't have the mental resources at the time to look up the frequency for that airport's ATIS, tune it in, listen to it and make a rational decision. They should have gotten the clue by now that this pilot was overwhelmed. Number one job is to fly the airplane. Protocal and airspace restrictions and license qualifications all take a back seat to flying the airplane. If you have to just pick a heading, keep your power up, climb if you're low and get your shit together. If you break some rule you can argue it out later. But if you crash and burn it is nothing but a total failure. So great that pilots (especially novices like myself) have the resource of KZbin to learn what to do and what not to do.

[@gwag8410]

From just an observer, it seems as though he let his pride get in the way...

[@johndonaldson3619]

Not pride - stupidity

[@mauricedavis8261]

Exactly, poor decision, confusing communications, constant indecision, wow...R.I.P.🙏

[@putinski666]

@@johndonaldson3619 those 2 things coincide often

[@johndonaldson3619]

@@putinski666 agreed

[@annsheridan12]

As in all history “ pride commeth before the fall “

[@jennydiazvigneault5548]

"I dont want to get in there and get stuck all day". Might be better than dying.

[@RedArrow73]

This has the ring of ironclad conditions laid down by his Wife.

[@maxbootstrap7397]

I took my first four hours of private pilot flight training "back east" (a long time ago, before GPS and glass cockpits). Fortunately for me, I was able to control and fly the airplane easily enough. That wasn't my problem. The problems were otherwise. First, pretty much everything on the ground looked too much the same as everything else. Rarely could I see any "landmark" or anything on the ground that I could identify as something specific (that I could find on the paper charts). Also, every flight the haze was so thick that I couldn't see very far. Every flight I said to the CFI, "this isn't even close to VFR, we shouldn't be flying today". And every flight the CFI would reply with something equivalent to, "If we strictly adhered to the rules it would never be VFR and nobody would fly". After my 4th lesson I unilaterally said to myself, *"Screw this, I refuse to fly like this ... and in fact I have no interest in flying if this is what flying is!".* Fortunately for me, a few months later I moved "out west" where typical visibility at altitude was 100 to 200 miles, not 1 or 2 miles at best --- on a so-called "clear" day! Needless to say, I finished my training in short order and enjoyed flying all over the place on nice, clear VFR days... which were abundant to say the least. When I watch youtube videos like this one ... and there are many ... I am reminded of flying "back east". Obviously every pilot has his own mix of goals for being a pilot, and for each flight. In my case, I love the boonies (the more extreme the boonies the better), and a big part of that is actually *seeing those boonies CLEARLY.* Also, I got into landing in crazy short little spots in the middle of nowhere, and enjoying modest "great outdoors adventures" in the vicinity of where I landed. But I never had any interest in flying in marginal conditions ... and in fact I totally hate marginal conditions. Why would I want to go "sight-see" in anything but awesome weather? I totally understand that other pilots have other goals. But just for the record, there was no force in the universe that could make me complete my training "back east" or fly for fun "back east". Sure, not everywhere back east is equally bad, and I'm sure that once in a while even the seriously bad places get relatively nice clear days. Nonetheless, I do find it strange that the density of pilots seems to be the same or higher "back east". Blows my mind. I will add this. With GPS and glass cockpits with moving maps, synthetic vision, terrain warning, autopilots and ADS-B out + ADS-B in ... the conditions that even a VFR pilot can fly in relatively safely (if trapped by bad weather) is massively expanded. Even a VFR pilot can always know precisely where he is, precisely how high above the ground, what terrain (and airstrips) are nearby, and so much more. And so, a VFR pilot (in such a new or well-equipped airplane) can save his own bacon much easier than decades ago ... even without any ATC help at all. But ... even if I was taking my training in such an improved airplane ... I'm sure I would have made the same decision. I still say *SCREW THIS* to bad weather. Unfortunately, not every pilot does that ... or can do that. Which is okay, I suppose. To each his own. But even with all those wonderful gizmos I have now (just in case), I plan to stay in the clear. Much more fun. :-)

[@foxtrot312]

Me too high desert antelope valley calif the best! But X wind landings gave a little challenge

[@markg4459]

Absolutely agree. I learned to fly out west and once made a trip out east. It was technically VFR but visibility was poor in the smog and haze. I hated it. Have never been back and would never have learned to fly -- or continued flying in that environment.

[@uncajim1]

At any time he had the option of slowing down and deploying the parachute. This on top of all the other options of declaring emergency, no go, returning home shortly after takeoff, to name just a few. His tunnel vision and pride were a much higher priority than the lives of his family. Thank you AOPA for presenting us with these life saving lessons. We all become better pilots after studying these videos. You have found a way to tastefully turn senseless tragedy into countless lives saved within the pilot community.

[@Darkvirgo88xx]

I'm guessing he didn't want to deploy the chute because it would have totaled the plane and it wasn't his. I wish he would have listened and landed on 20R when Dupaige was going to let him sneak in.

[@medwaystudios]

@@Darkvirgo88xx Looking at the photos he did deploy it or it just came out on impact.

[@poisonouslead85]

@@medwaystudios He probably deployed it too late. By the time he came out of the clouds he was moving quickly in a deep descent and under 1000'. I've heard of CAPS working as low as 700' but the plane was more or less level during that deployment.

[@williamrunsatlanta9491]

Man this guys indecision gave me anxiety just listening to it

[@ACElectrode]

Wow, this was hard to watch. I almost wonder if he was all there or having a panic attack. Seemed like it was his first day in an airplane! Such a tragedy.

[@Xxfireman024xX]

I’ve never seen such indecisiveness

[@BeemerTwelve]

Are this actual ATC recordings? The guy doesn't seem to know his way around. *"Are you available? No wait, I think I'll pass, mmm, although come to think of it..."* For the love of God, that's already going wrong even if you were driving to McDonald's.

[@Mike-01234]

Yes that is Ray Harris the man who is the Pilot he owns a Chrysler Car dealership baffles me how someone who obvious has the money but choose to fly without proper training. He is embarrassed that he has gotten himself into trouble makes some really mad mistakes. I would bet he got a weather briefing but not before he took off maybe they reported broken clouds he thought he could do it VFR.

[@airmuseum]

I have seen this syndrome for years. I call it the doctor/lawyer factor. Assertive personalities, with enough money to buy high performance aircraft, but not enough time, or maybe humility, to learn and practice the skills to fly competently. They end up killing innocent, trusting people and themselves. Get there itis is usually present.

[@carolmccarthy7371]

John Wilkinson I

[@WendelltheSongwriter]

I think one has to consider the "150-Hour Syndrome" as well: Having enough experience to think you have a lot of experience. But yes, with that much time in a high-performance aircraft, I think we can all expect more professional comms.

[@rogerwilco2]

@@airmuseum He did not sound assertive at all. Confused, indecisive, unable to articulate his ideas and wishes, and incoherent. Not at all the doctor/lawyer type.

[@Arykperry]

I wish ATC would have pointed out that being stuck all day is better than being dead all day

[@raajashtaputre2803]

I was thinking the same - sometimes ATC folks should just tell pilots in stress clearly "look you should reconsider your decision and get on the ground as soon as you can. And we will try to help you get there" instead of saying "Ok.... if that's what you wanna do". People lack good decision making under normal conditions, let along under stress. ATC wasn't wrong but seems like he just washed his hands off and let the pilot continue to his inevitable demise.

[@xxxxxxxxxxxx_xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

@@raajashtaputre2803 That sounds nice on the surface, but its not their job. If ATC were to start making suggestions to pilots, you would see a lot of accidents CAUSED by ATC. Better for them to trust the pilot knows what's best for his aircraft rather than second-guess him. You can't fly an aircraft from your desk on the ground.

[@raajashtaputre2803]

@@xxxxxxxxxxxx_xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx I understand, it's a tricky situation. But could be a last effort to save a totally stress pilot who is about to kill himself. And I'm sure there are legalities involved as well.

[@VxMAX]

About a month ago, took off in CAVOK conditions over the airport I regularly fly. 20 minutes into the flight, I began encountering the first signs of IMC. I was with a passenger on a tour flight around the area. Executed a 180, came back to land, all was fine. 15 minutes after I shut down, visibility dropped to 1.5 SM, ceilings 500 and gusts picked up also. Like many other pilots here, the 180 choice return to safety needs little to no explanation as to why it’s so effective.

[@briansmobile1]

Man, this was SO well done! What a tragic outcome in the balance between risk & reward.

[@PilotPlater]

Hi Brian :)

[@danielbrown1724]

Imagine being on a commercial flight and the Captain gets on the intercom and says "guys bear with me here, I'm still in Aviation School" 😆

[@lizettewanzer8650]

No kidding. Terrible morass of issues this guy got himself into...and cost so many lives.

[@pacificeric36]

Many men already know, he didn't want to look bad in front of his daughter's and the boyfriend. Instead he killed everyone including himself.

[@Onemorechance12]

You think he took the plane down intentionally? (Not challenging you, just curious)

[@diegoc604]

@@Onemorechance12 That's not what he/she said. Because he didn't want to look bad in front of them, he was not able to make the right decisions, leading to the accident.

[@TheBeingReal]

Pride. Get-thereitis.

[@ScribeLines]

I'm a "chicken sh*t" type of pilot :) I have pulled a 180 more times than I care to remember. And that was while I was IFR rated and current in an Aztec! As the old saying goes, it is far better to be on the ground wishing that you were flying than the other way around. :) 1. YXE to YQL - a return to YXE - approach to mins with full power to maintain the glideslope (yeah right, "light" rime icing in cloud! ) 2. YXE to YQL - a diversion to YYN (Swift Current, SK) - hmm, that dust storm doesn't look all that attractive at the moment 3. YQT to YQR - um, no, not going to have enough gas for that one with the upper winds being a "tad" stronger than forecast 4. YQR to YQL - gave up on scud running in the middle of the night with a light show ahead of me ... good thing as a major hailstorm was just a few miles in front of me 5. Humboldt, SK to Cutbank, MT - um, no, that is way to low with no ground in sight; let's go have a coffee in YQL and see how things look in a bit :) These are just a few that I can recall, but as they preach in this very informative and worthwhile series ... if in doubt, turn around and wait it out and have a coffee or three :) .... worked for me :)

[@Mr_Spock512]

It's better to be a "chicken sh*t" type of pilot than to be a land dart.

[@airgliderz]

No you make decisive safe decisions about flying to minimize risk. That's expert piloting.

[@fullytrapped.]

@@airgliderz extremely well said. Expert piloting.

[@firefoxussr31]

James, you are an ALIVE, chicken-shit pilot with excellent SRM. I salute you.

[@playgroundchooser]

Cut Bank's weather is super deceiving... wind can kick up from 10 to 50 in the blink of an eye in time like that. You absolutely did the right thing!

[@danstewart2770]

If that was the actual comms (his real voice), it seems pretty clear he was not on top of his situation. There should be an ATC code word or phrase issued to pilots that conveys a message to the effect of, *_"Sir, based on what I'm hearing, you need to check yourself right now and reassess your situational awareness."_* Not intended to be rude or critical, or cause panic, just an outside objective observation that may wake up a pilot in times of confusion and negligence.

[@mercdragons]

This is the real ATC conversation. They are easy to obtain. You are correct ATC when hearing something like this should take control and say we can get you down let us help. Getting down safely is more important you can get back home when it safe.

[@foxtrotnine2504]

at 11:23 i think is the most absurd part. He was in the air panicking in poor weather conditions, and ATC was offering to guide him to the closest VFR airport. That VFR airport was a life saver, and yet he rejected the offer with his daughters in the plane? un real.

[@vladbcom]

WHY would you get in the air with your loved ones on board with such heavy cloud conditions and without IFR training!??!?

[@HerveBoisde]

+It is I When he said "I think I let it get around me" that said it all. And yet it seemed like he knew he was unprepared but still opted to go his own way. Weird.

[@victordasilva5255]

It is I ego bigger than his brain

[@MrMowky]

Avoid Chicago traffic. Save time. Not feel controlled by weather. These aren't good reasons, but they were his.

[@terrencebradley5417]

250 hours? That's just about the point where you start to really learn how to fly.

[@smokysantana]

Terrence Bradley I was taught about requesting a special vfr clearance in in ground school by my instructor and knew to request it even before I got my license. Strange that this guy with way more hours than I have didn’t know that.

[@crfdln]

No....not enough. I'd say 1,000 hrs.

[@IronKing79]

A good friend of mine killed his wife and himself, ( the 6 mo. bay survived) while trying to make a VFR into IMC descent, he had no experience, but a bold attitude. I told him, don't fly anyone you love until you have at least 250 hours and a hell of a flight review. He did not listen.

[@naughtysauce4323]

Imagine how terrified his passengers must have been listening to him being soo indecisive

[@james-p]

"Oh, the weather will clear up by the time I get there." Famous last words. I mean, damn, I'm not a pilot, but I know weather predictions are a dark art at best; weather's _always_ changing. It must have been a bit frustrating for the ATC guys trying to help him. I feel sorry for the kids. After seeing the weather, he could have just thrown them in the car and driven that route in maybe 4 hours. It's a long schlep for sure, but it seems to me that VFR flying is something to be enjoyed when you can, not done when you need to.

[@windsofmarchjourneyperrytr2823]

Maybe they should make OTR experience on a motorcycle a prerequisite? You'll learn quick how much you're at the mercy of weather.

[@realtoast7036]

You can hear the ATC personnel's concern in their voice. They did a good job looking after the guy. I'm wondering how much natural sense of courtesy plays in their decision to not really rattle the pilot's cage and tell him pointedly their concerns.

[@lenkapenka6976]

The professionalism of ATC was highly impressive...

[@pmsteamrailroading]

From my perspective, this is simple. If the pilots not instrument rated, take a cab.

[@1krr]

Dude, just listen to ATC. Get vectors to a field you can land at, get on the ground, and rent a freakin' car!

[@sntslilhlpr6601]

@@eseven2547 The perception of them being like cops is exactly why so many are afraid to ask them for help. But that perception is wrong. They are not the sky police. They are there to help you and it is solely up to the pilot to admit to himself he is in over his head, confess it to ATC, and let them help you.

[@megenberg8]

@@eseven2547 they should be able to, actually! the pilot was not capable of asking for help or declaring - so many crashes every day in ga - atc must see so much of everything! maybe too many people flying and too few qualified pilots.

[@homefront3162]

Or a Hearst

[@aesma2522]

The pilot is his own cop, and he could have landed at that first airport even if not qualified, just declare an emergency and the controller will help you land. Yes, there are consequences afterwards, but nothing compared to killing yourself and family. In fact there might not even be consequences (aside from paperwork), VFR into IMC is a good reason to declare you have a big problem and need to land.

[@ronhenderson9258]

@@eseven2547 I know this is old, but the answer is yes and no. They can make suggestions, even declare an emergency on the pilot's behalf, but they can't order or force the pilot to follow vectors and land; in fact a VFR pilot only has to talk to ATC if they wish to enter controlled airspace. Once the Pilot informed ATC that he was leaving the area to escape the weather, then he was free to continue on his own accord.

[@datopperharlee2628]

He's too hesitant and indecisive. That's a contributing factor

[@ps2hacker]

I love listening to the stories of the old WW2 vets, pilots particularly. I recall one story of a pilot who found that beautiful weather that GB is so famous for had returned while he was on patrol, and with darkness coming fast, fuel running low, all the airfields were completely socked in and the tower could hear him, so he knew he was close, but they were advising him to climb and bail. Well he wasn't that ready to let go of that airplane, and gets an idea, he asks the controller to go out on the field with a flare gun, and shoot a flare straight up in the air, which he does. And there it was, big, bright, flare comes up through the clouds, so he tucks into a turn around that flare, and followed that all the way down to the field, and landed safely.

[@ps2hacker]

***** I'm sure the guy with the flare gun could hear where the plane was pretty well. One of the vets, a MOH winner, in fact, was recanting a story involving a fellow soldier, PVT Sergent Major, that was his actual given name, not his rank, he was a private. How could you ever forget a name like that?

[@georgiascott8153]

They are almost all gone; even if one was young when they fought in World War II, they are at least 90+ now. God bless them one and all, heroes. Cherish those stories Yasenia.

[@georgiascott8153]

Great Story!!

[@edadan]

I remember flying VFR from Atlanta to Hilton Head many years ago. I could see, as I approached South Carolina, that the entire coast was overcast. I immediately did a 180 and went back home. There was zero temptation to look for a hole in the clouds so I could land at Hilton Head Island. Quite the contrary, I remember feeling a little bit of fear when I saw all those clouds. In any case, I'm really sorry for this man's family. He was trying to do something good for his kids and things just got out of hand for him. God bless his family.

[@redwatch1100]

Did you ever get IFR qualified?

[@edadan]

@@redwatch1100 - I took the written and passed and had almost enough hours of actual and simulated IMC to take the flight test...but never did. My original flight instructor took a job with an airline and I just didn't click with his replacement. I guess I lost interest and stopped flying. That's been about 25 years ago now.

[@touristguy87]

"He was trying to do something good for his kids and things just got out of hand for him" ...no...he was trying to do one thing good for his kids and ignored the bad things that he was doing with them. Every year there's a story of a guy who has a nice job, nice home and a wife and 3 kids who loses his job and waxes his whole family because he doesn't want them to live poor.

[@lizettewanzer8650]

That "little bit of fear" most likely saved your ass...and your family and friends a lifetime of grief. Good for you on listening to that inner "uh-oh" voice.

[@bertjilk3456]

Hearing this reminded me of one of my gliding instructors when I was at school. Overconfident and proud. He ended up a broken hole in the ground too. Aviation and egos are not a good mix.

[@wf4919]

Guy needed to call uncle....and admit he was in over his head. He pussyfooted around getting solid help.....there is a point where getting in trouble on the ground is better than the alternative. Probably never had been in any situation close to that......its a great feeling getting our license and maybe your own plane....but get an instrument rating to really know what you are doing and to save you life someday. I think the instrument ticket is by far the most important training you can get. One of my Roommates in college did the exact same thing (tho IFR on top...when VFR rated).....the only thing that saved his life was he owned up to it got help and luckily had just learned how to tune in an ILS (in preparation for up coming IFR training) and had to shoot the approach to near minimums at night. Did a report and got a slap on the wrist.....

[@toddlavigne6441]

can't the ATC just guide you into and airport, follow their heading, watch your speed and attitude and should you have a pretty good chance of landing safely?