TURN SMART - RESPECT THE SAFETY MARGIN

This video is a must-watch for any safety-minded ag aviation operator or pilot. Air Tractor’s former Chief Test Pilot Mike Rhodes and AeroShell Aerobatic Team member & veteran ag pilot Steve Gustafson offer an in-depth look at safe ag aircraft turns and maintaining a margin of safety. Also, hear from USAF Colonel Mike Mullane (Ret.), former NASA Space Shuttle astronaut, about the dangers of Normalization of Deviance and how it relates to the ag aviation industry.
0:00 - Turn Smart slideshow
0:35 - Intro: Kyle
1:10 - Turn Safety: Mike & Steve
7:52 - Flight Characteristics
9:17 - Four Left-Turning Tendencies
13:28 - Center of Gravity
15:01 - Smooth and Steady
17:01 - Turning Patterns
19:35 - Col. Mike Mullane
19:56 - Normalization of Deviance
26:52 - The Stall/Spin
30:45 - Stall/Spin Demonstration
33:57 - Seek Instruction
36:14 - Prevent Complacency
37:33 - Recap
39:50 - Outro slideshow

[@tbearracing]

As a military pilot that transitioned to ag flying, I have always felt that the importance of human factors in mishap prevention in the ag industry was woefully underrated. Mike, you did an awesome job putting this video together with the right people. Hopefully, the ag community will embrace this concept and expand their understanding of it. The military has been doing an outstanding job of this for a long time. Good model to follow.

[@Skinflaps_Meatslapper]

I know someone that fits your description, what part of the country are you flying in?

[@SR-gs8zo]

the military teaches round open wide turns, nut such idiocy as cramping anything not suitabel around tight pattern corners for nothing! itls house made! wame for the old idiotic spring actuated / connected tail wheels...those wheels lack support in directional stability and cause troubles all and everywhere, bht FAA compkied tjose and now this shit is built everywhere...lack of thinking rationally, lack of knowledge...means sticking to outdated dangerous standards in patternwork or equipment/ designs...just watch some channels on homebuilts, or landing gear repairs,..pattern work and what ever...itls ridiculous...it rather looks as if people leanr dangerous behaviour out of some useless tradition...why rectangular pattern with tight turns in Ga while the military always used round wide 180 degree pattern...hm? and there are many buds and discussions online about exactly this issue! bcs ths statistics "during spins/stalls" is a misleading title! it should be called during stalls and spins caused by dangerous pattern work according to "common practize" ...but how many vids do you find online about GA aircraft that were told to give way for some airliner(s) until they were basically driven out of their safe approach several tikes and then crashed bcs fuel was done...or pressed into dangerous tailwinds...or into tight turns....hm? google it! itls creepy! better avoid any bug airport, avoid any with strict tict patterwork thaz forces deadly turns on people...or how many fell out ofbtje sky bcs of ghe wake of a heli? or a jet? hmmm? the list is endless! and when i think about the avionics, basically like 50 yrs ago and still expensive but still inaccurate...and then the pilozs don,t possibly know they are actually too slow for that turn!

[@paulis7319]

As a retired banner pilot who has over 7000 hours in a Pawnee (PA-25), this is extremely important information! Low level aerobatics can be fun but also need to be done safely, with a large amount of aeronautical knowledge. 75 degree bank at 200 AGL? Perfectly safe when done correctly. One tiny mistake? Uhhh, well, your family and friends will miss you.

[@crawford323]

I can still hear my flight instructor saying during my Tail Dragger endorsement, “ The rudder got you into this mess and the rudder will get you out.” Now what he was saying was in reference to landings and the CG being aft of the main gear.

[@malcolmmarzo2461]

Excellent. Even we General Aviation pilots can learn a lot from pilots who operate in higher-risk environments.

[@riemer101]

Exactly!

[@moepow8160]

I'm not a pilot, but I've worked on just about every aircraft in US inventory and some NATO aircraft, so I love aviation I can understand exactly what these guys are talking about. After retirement I stated flying RC aircraft, some small, some large, and turbine jets as well. I know it's completely different then real aircraft, but real or RC all the same aerodynamic effects are the same... it's money we lose not our life when we crash. I've had beginning pilots fly RC planes and they said it was much harder at first because your not in the aircraft. Man, after watching this talk I can match the mistakes to some of the dumbest flight patterns I've flown. And friends, we watch eachother and you can see when a stall is going to happen. I can do a lot with a RC planes, and I've flown hundreds of different types, but you can hardly do anything when you have no airspace to recover in. Altitude is my friend. I have a lot of respect for dusters....

[@nuchbutter]

Hello, Air Tractor, Mike and Steve! Thanks for this video. I just completed my first season last year, starting off with an Ag Wagon, then a transition to a 402 for the last bit of it. This was an excellent refresher, especially for a retired Naval Aviator and Part 135 pilot who spent most of his time in helicopters. Down in Pensacola in 1988, we spent what I thought was an inordinate amount of time in T-34C Turbomentors doing stalls, aggravated stalls, approach-turn stalls, dirty stalls, spins, dirty spins, etc. When I finally got my wings, that's when I appreciated the training, but mostly during it - "Oh, man, he wants me to do another one! Can't we just go do some more barrel rolls?" Later, in the fleet, we emphasized energy management, and indeed every combat aircraft TTP manual, whether rotary or fixed-wing, contained volumes about this subject. We trained to this diligently. One of the technical procedures I remember from those days was to avoid a rolling pitch-up. So now when I'm at the end of the pass, I'll pitch up until my climb angle is set, release back-stick pressure, level off, and check airspeed and gauges. Then only once my SA light turns green will I begin my downwind turn. I know, it sounds agonizingly slow, but as all the Marines I got to fly with would tell me, "Slow is Smooth, and Smooth is Fast..." Pray for us out here in NW Kansas for more snow to end our drought, and get our wheat fields growing! Regards, Roddy Dill Atwood, KS

[@nuchbutter]

@@Shitt3r6968 Good Evening to You! Oh, boy, I had SOOOO much fun as a Naval Aviator, wish I could do it all again! I would also be honored to talk about it with you!

[@clodoaldodonato3029]

"Maintain coordinated flight at all times" Thank you from Brazil

[@jmwSeattle]

I’ve very recently meant an ex Skyhawk pilot who did 6 years of ag flying before entering Navy aviation flight school. In the Navy he was called upon to take other pilots up in a T-6 and demonstrate inverted spins to make believers out of them. He said it was violent and terrifying for them and convinced them it needed to be avoided at all cost. He didn’t even finish primary training. They put him straight into jet training when they found out what he could do. Your just wasting our gas they told him.

[@andreasschobel5860]

Lots of great lessons. Mike Mullane talking about the normalization of deviance was incredible.

[@Jet-Pack]

Excellent video not just for agricultural pilots! Everyone who flies just a normal traffic pattern should be aware their stall margins and should regularly practice slow flight and stall recovery. The reason why airliners have such a good safety record is because they are regularly facing abnormal situations in a simulated environment. As private pilots we don't have to undergo these regular checks which can lead to repeating the same mistake 100 times until you no longer recognize it. Bring your A game every time, I like that phrase.

[@maxcorder2211]

Not only does this “normalization of deviance” apply to ag and all flying, it applies to virtually all areas of human life and behavior. From investing to driving after a few drinks. One night stands you get away with. And the bottom line is exactly like he explained; no matter how many times you do it, the risk remains exactly the same.

[@grimesmike]

The best video I have ever seen, all student pilots should be made to watch this completely thru and be tested on what they learned, It's a life saver!

[@jyellowhammer]

Here Here!

[@shaunroberts9361]

Dont have the airplane behind you. This was Outstanding. Really like this guy here. I definitely could listen to him for sure.

[@billb2176]

As a mechanical engineer from 'down under'(Australia) it's always excellent ot see dedication, skill and experience on show in the 'good ole ... ' that gets such flack at times. I can see why you've been chief pilot for so long - as they say, there are no bold pilots that endure to become old pilots. Nice combination of technical smarts and practical experience.

[@TheWilliamHoganExperience]

I'm a sailor. I want to learn to fly. The part about "wind aweness" really hit home. I also commuted in Los Angeles for years on a motorcycle, splitting lanes when cars were stopped or moving slowly during rush hour traffic. Without situational awareness, you crash. It's that simple. Motorcyle crashes are similar to plane crashes. People usually get hurt or they die. One of the most counter-intuitive things I learned riding through traffic and especially when splitting lanes, is to NOT look at the CARS surrounding and manuvering around me. Instead, focus on the SPACES BETWEEN CARS. Then, it's a matter of surfing and gliding and riding through those spaces. Flying looks a lot like riding a motorcyle to me in that regard - but in 3 dimensions. Like with motorcycles, certain mechanical failures can cause you to crash in aircraft, but the main root causes of GA accidents are on the pilot - in roughly this order: Lack of skill / current proficiency Recklessness / showing off / screwing around / trying to meet a schedule Complacency / lack of situational monitoring and awareness VFR into IMC Running out of gas A lot of the above are bundled into CFIT statistics from what I've seen. CFITing is like crashing your motorcycle into a telephone pole. There's no reason it should EVER happen. Telephone poles and the ground do not viciously jump out in front of motorcylists and pilots. Airplanes do not suddenly stall and spin for no reason. Motorcylists and pilots lose situational awareness slam themselves into immovable objects because of poor situational awareness, complacency, and/or reckless behavior. ALL of that is under the direct control of the pilot. All of it. The thing about riding motorcyles in heavy traffic is that the rider has zero control over the thousands of cars they'll interact with on their communte. Pilots have ATC looking over their shoulders and watching their backs, and mid-air colisions still happen all the time. Again - situational awareness. Mid airs should never happen. Pilots need to pay attention at all times to their environment. On a motorcycle the slightest lapse in attention or judgement can lead to an immediate, catastrophic loss of control. In that regard, aircraft are more forgiving,because most of the time you're surrounded by thousands of feet of air you have to travel through before you're gonna slam into anything. On a bike, you're never more than a fraction of a second away from slamming into something very hard and unforgiving. When I read about GA being 1.5 times more dangerous than riding a motorcyle on the street, I think the risk is acceptable, because I rode a motorcycle daily for over 4 years, and racked up thousands of hours over my lifetime on them, and never sustained any serious injuries. Most of the falls I had came early, and were totally my fault - being a reckless teenager and all. I'm a wiser older man now, and am looking forward to my flight training, and recreational sport flying. It looks like it's challenging, beautiful, and a heel of a lot of fun and safe - as long as you know and respect your own limits and those of your aircraft, and pay attention to the weather and your immediate environment.

[@JohnChuprun]

Thanks Air Tractor for putting this out there. Not an Ag Pilot, but these lessons are very important for any aviator. Steve and Mike seem like great guys.

[@pbjoutdoors6270]

As a new GA pilot this was very informative and well done. You guys make it look easy!

[@TTomky]

That was a wealth of information. You both are skilled beyond comprehension. Thank you. Trace

[@crawford323]

Wish Leland Snow could see what he gave birth to. Glad these training videos are being produced.

[@kristinedwards7604]

Rowdy, as his daughter I agree! He pushed to get the first "Turn Smart" video produced back in the 1990's. I'm sure he'd be proud of this one too.

[@crawford323]

@@kristinedwards7604 The only time I ever hitchhiked was by air. I caught a flight to mineral wells then on to Olney where I met up with one young Aggie engineer who had family in Aggieland. He sold me a 1947 Stinson 108-1 which I flew back to KCFD. I asked him for a check out and he said that he knew I was a tail Dragger pilot and that I would do fine and sent me on my way. There also was a brilliant A&I person who ran the FBO. He had a keen interest in photography. As this was my profession, I enjoyed his genius as well. I met One Armed Jack, the founder of the now famous One Armed Dove Hunt which as you know, was a hunt set up for Amputees. My trip to Olney was glorious. This was in the mid to late ‘90’s. I will have to peek at my log book to refresh my memory. I never met Mr. Snow but he has positively influenced my life. One of his mantra’s was concerning after crash fires. He said,” It takes three things to make a fire, fuel, oxygen and a source of ignition. You cannot do anything about oxygen but you have the ability to keep the fuel source away from the ignition source.” So he ran all of his fuel and oil lines, as best he could on opposite sides of the aircraft. I am building an aircraft now and I am following Mr. Snow’s guidance. Your father was a great man.

[@Skinflaps_Meatslapper]

@@kristinedwards7604 Hi there! We've met a time or two, hope you're doing well. I remember Wayne Handley in that video, it was a good one!

[@bernardanderson3758]

This is what I’m looking forward to getting more with my instructor and thank you Air Tractor for this and no one should ever say this will never happen to me

[@JasonRidesmoto]

Tailwheel pilot here but not ag pilot... this is a great video that I'll save and bring back routinely as a great reminder! Thank you!

[@TheJustinJ]

Stick and Rudder is an excellent book, albeit with dated terminology. Its a great resource for this topic.

[@jyellowhammer]

@@TheJustinJ I concur sir.

[@R182video]

Doing my primary training I specifically sought out a flight school that would allow me to do spins during my primary training. I still remember seeing the intersection of I-95 and I-40 rotating in my windshield. Great fun and I learned a lot doing this. My instructor kept telling me to ask myself what would I do that would make me bust my a$$ every time I strap a plane on. Works for everything.

[@louisrosner7902]

Awesome awesome video. I will remember this every time I make a base turn to final. So much that was applicable to any type of flying. Thank you again.

[@thomashammett6851]

Thank you. Good lessons learned without any risk to myself! I appreciate the instruction.

[@lucianobrito1276]

What a class! Thank you for the video and explanations, greetings from Brazil!

[@excellenceinanimation960]

Thanks for this! As a ag pilot wannabe I will remember this!

[@JoeCoolPilot]

Excellent information for the GA pilot. Thank you for producing and sharing.

[@doncarlson8391]

Excellent video and every pilot should watch this. Great explanation and graphics to illustrate what's occurring. Thanks for sharing your years of experience. I'll be sharing this too with my pilot friends.

[@tac-cobserver3788]

Awesome 🤙 Thanks for sharing, Air Tractor Stay healthy for all of us & Safety First! ✌😉

[@emmettjones5165]

I loved the footage of Steve demonstrating incorrect rudder inputs during turns in the T-6. He lost only 200 ft of altitude, but in Ag flying, who has 200 to recover? Great info about the asymmetrical thrust from prop under higher AOA, as well as the four forces causing adverse yaw. Steve could be my IP anytime....Great video for all GA pilots, and any eye-opening look at Ag.

[@rpilatti7229]

Perfect, thank you very much!!

[@sreed8570]

Its much like riding a motorcycle, as you need to have your attention way out in front of you to make proper corrections on time. Only once during my pilot training did I get into a bad situation like this. It was during a strong crosswind takeoff, I was a little slow getting on the rudder as when the wheels left the ground. You can bet my instructor and I both got a quick cardiac test that morning. Great video, this is something all pilots could benefit from.

[@emergencylowmaneuvering7350]

I practice tight 8's on my Honda Ligh Cruiser Honda Shadow. Tight turns make you a better ridr and flyer too. Im a CFi and MC rider..

[@tissuepaper9962]

also like a motorcycle, you're significantly more exposed and vulnerable than most of the traffic around you. Modern cars have automatic emergency braking, fully-independent all-wheel drive, and a ton of extra weight devoted to crumple zones, airbags, and really solid seats. Modern airliners could be used fully autonomously, if it were legal to operate them that way, and they have active protections against stalls and spins. Motorcycles and light aircraft have none of that, meaning your life is directly in your hands in every instant of operation.

[@daffidavit]

I read somewhere, maybe on a John and Martha King report on stall/spins, that most stall/spin fatalities for "general aviation" pilots occurred immediately after the engine(s) fail after take off. For example, a single engine pilot departs and climbs and the engine quits at, say 400 agl. It takes the average pilot approx. 4 seconds to react. While the airspeed is dissipating, he sees the ground coming up quickly, so he (she) pulls up and then- the classic stall spin. I believe this happens more so than the classic base-to-final skidding turn when in comes to general aviation. Great learning video from the pros btw.

[@TheJustinJ]

This is a far simpler issue than anyone want's to believe. *The wing stalls at its critical angle of attack.* At the critical angle of attack, airflow separates from the upper surface of the wing. This reduces lift substantially as the critical angle is exceeded. Any additional angle of attack will result is exponentially less lift and more drag beyond the critical angle. The critical angle of attack is ~ 15 degrees for most common airfoils. (Although Reynolds number, camber, and leading edge shape play a role in the exact angle of attack which the airflow will separate). It will usually happen around 15 degrees for normal airfoils found on most GA aircraft. (Sources: NACA and Eppler). The wing is mounted to the fuselage at a fixed angle of incidence. So is the Horizontal stabilizer. They are both fixed to the fuselage in relation to each other, having the same or small difference in their respective incidence angles. The elevator sets the wings angle of attack while airborne. The wings angle of attack cannot pitch up significantly without up-elevator deflection. (Although vertical gusts can momentarily increase the angle of attack). *UNLESS the aircraft is loaded with a center of gravity at or behind the Neutral point. In which case the aft mass centroid will overpower the horizontal stabilizers lift, depressing the tail, and causing a divergent pitch-up. (This is know as relaxed static stability and is a stability feature of the F-16 and Wright 1903 flyer). So now we have established that a stall requires trimming the wing to +15 degrees AoA. And this can only happen with up-elevator input applied from cruise or any normal level flight or climbing/descending or turning maneuver. *Except when going straight up. Where the aircraft can be brought to a stop and backed downward in a tail slide without deflecting the elevator substantially. (Which again takes elevator to pitch to that angle in the first place). So to reiterate, in order to stall the wing; The wing must pitch to its critical angle of attack. In order to reach that angle or attack, barring extreme vertical maneuvers, the elevator must be deflected to trim the wing to that angle. If you slow the aircraft down to its stall speed in level, horizontal flight. This is also the critical angle of attack. Notice the nose high attitude? Why is it holding this higher nose attitude in slow flight? Notice your stick position. You are easing back on the controls to transition into and maintain slow flight. If you ease the stick forward you will descend and pick up speed. To fly slow, it requires up-elevator, which requires aft-stick. You say "no I'm not! Look, hands free!" ~ Yes, but that's because you trimmed out your stick forces. Allowing the elevator to deflect upward due to the trim tab being deflection downward by the trim controls. This upward elevator deflection trims the aircraft to the slow speed, which is near stall; near its critical angle of attack. An airfoil generates lift due to meeting the airflow at an angle of attack. There is a close relationship to angle of attack, and lift coefficient. The lift-curve slope of any given airfoil is simply CL/a. That is increment of Lift coefficient over angle. It is nearly a straight line extending up to stall. If you want more lift at a given speed, you need more angle of attack. If you want to fly upside down, you need negative angle of attack. It cannot be done any other way. The theoretical CL/a is 2pi Radians, (1 Rad is 57.3 degrees) and stalling angle of attack of conventional airfoils is 15degrees. (0.2618 radians). This results in an approximate Lift coefficient of 1.645. (Right in the range of most conventional airfoils). The NACA 23012 as found on many notable aircraft, has a well tested and verified CLmax of 1.64. Lift coefficient is increased by increasing the angle of attack. And lift is simply lift coefficient multiplied by free-stream dynamic pressure (q), multiplied by wing area.(At 60mph, is 88ft/sec. Where q= 9.2033 m) An aircraft having a wing loading of 15lb/ft^2 will begin to fly at this speed at an angle of attack of 14.83 degrees: Nearly stalled. (Probably stalled with any disturbances). An aircraft on the ground in landing attitude is not typically stalled. Even though pilots call it a "full stall landing" this is not entire true. Most taildragger/conventional gear aircraft sit at a 10-11 degree deck angle. With another 2-3 degrees of wing incidence. This equates to less than 15 degrees. Therefore it meets the oncoming air below its critical angle of attack while taxiing, three-point landing, or beginning the takeoff roll. The airflow is still attached ~ It's simply not flying yet, because dynamic pressure is too low to generate sufficient lift to carry the weight of the aircraft at this low speed. But the wing is not stalled! This is knowable and provable by the fact you can hold the tail low to generate lift, allowing the airplane to get light on the wheels at a much lower speed than is required for liftoff. This technique is used for soft field takeoffs. So, therefore the wing is not stalled as it still generates lift due to angle of attack and "q" while moving slowly on the ground. It has not exceeded its critical angle of attack. And it cannot, because the landing gear geometry where the tailwheel keeps the wings attitude below the critical angle of attack. Only once airborne, with sufficient back-stick, or up-elevator trim, and maybe prop-wash contributing to tail effectiveness, can you stall the airplane. By rotating to an angle of attack slightly higher than the ground angle of attack after liftoff, then the wing will stall. This fundamental principal applies everywhere and at all times. The elevator stalls the wing because the elevator is what trims the wing to it's angle of attack. And the elevator is connected to the stick, which must be displaced aft to deflect the elevator. Therefore, by not pulling aft, you can prevent the wing from stalling. The extreme opposite case is stalls can happen at any airspeed and attitude. Including while diving straight down at Vne. A stall can be induced with an aft-deflection of the stick. This is how you initiate a snap roll. Pull, stall, rudder, snap. At an airspeed well above stall. This is evident at any airshow or aerobatic contest. Where snap-rolls and tumbles are entered at speed above the stall speed. Often at Va (maximum maneuvering) speed.

[@edgarguinartlopez8341]

Amazing material and explanations, thanks very much!

[@CFITOMAHAWK2]

My !995 Bush Pilots CFi taught me turnbacks 2 kinds. Teardrop and the most dangerous Hook Turn or Question Mark turn. If power we did only the Teardrop Turnback only. The Hook Turnback was done at 45 bank only and over the Vglide speed and if 2k feet away from were we wanted to finish it- otherwuse it will be too tight and dangerous as F. We used turnback training for GRM Turnbacks, Box Canyon Turnbacks and EFATO Turnbacks with partial or no power emergencies. Too tight Hook Turnbacks are too dangerous, if power is better to do the Teardrop Turnback.

[@SGTSnakeUSMC]

This is good info for us guys flying the smaller stuff too. Thanks!

[@user-bd5nh5eb4b]

Situational awareness! This translates into many , many fields if one has success in their forefront ❤! Lawyers, doctors , military leaders, politicians could all benefit from this discussion.

[@imbtmn9836]

Very insightful, thank you

[@MickYoung-do7ho]

The best training that prepared me for safe Ag flying was the formative learning years flying gliders. Wind direction, mechanical turbulence, meteorology, mechanical empathy, coordination and most of all energy management, are ingrained in the glider culture. Another area was years of racing dirt bike enduro's, in so far as to win you first have to get your machine and yourself through a long race in rough terrain, riding within your limits so as to avoid lost time/injury/broken bike from a crash is essential. I always marveled at fellow Ag pilots who could go from spray off to spray on with a

[@blackhawks81H]

I've been saying for years that at least something like 5-10 hours of glider work should be needed for regular pilots during training. Or bare minimum for the more advanced licenses/endorsements. I've known a few pilots, some good friends, who've died over the years in really stupid stall/spin accidents. Usually in the pattern. NONE of them had any glider experience. NONE of the pilots I know with glider experience have ever had a crash due to low speed maneuvering stalls. Not having that engine/power settings to worry about and just being able to 100 percent focus on lift/yaw/keeping it in the air with the controls alone, is an amazing lesson. Gliders take multiple things out of the equation and let you focus on the one thing that kills the most GA pilots.

[@mktwatcher]

Good Video, hopefully pilots will take to heart.

[@lordofnothing255]

What a fantastic video.

[@marceloaversa4409]

thanks a lot , im sharing these material with new glider tow pilots ho was always trying to improve the performance of his job sometimes trying ti make very short landings making very low turns at low altitudes .

[@EstebanFacio]

great vid! thanks

[@bernardanderson3758]

Love to see more

[@ildarmingazov2304]

Hello there! I grab this video for learn more about aviation terms and aspects how to fly. Good wishes from Kazakhstan! Thanks no end!

[@davesobey3773]

We always said in the air force Familiarity breeds complacency.👍

[@Rurik8118]

Great visuals to convey the message - thank you for sharing (:

[@zafiris2382]

I fly a cessna 188 agwagon ....as a scale model. Although i am an rc modeller i found the video very educational. I always remember the words of my Mentor "Beware , think ahead , at any time you can stall " Greetings from Greece, Fly Safe.

[@tbas8741]

so many people don't know even pilots with 10,000 hours that a plane can stall While in a Vertical Dive even at max speed. they think stall means slow when its not.

[@EllipsisAircraft]

Aerobatic pilots perform this as a vertical diving snap-roll of many variations. By pulling-back on the stick (the stall lever, per Langweische in "Stick and Rudder"). Pulling back pitches the wing to higher angle of attack. At a certain angle, it will stall. So don't pitch to that angle unless You want to stall, snap-roll, spin.

[@sameeralazawee7524]

Thank you

[@FlightSim2703]

Perfect, awesome aspects each pilot need to follow, not only for his own safety also for the others 😊🥰👍👍👍 thanks for sharing pilots 🥰👍

[@nohamchoi4887]

These guys are so badass 🔥🔥🔥

[@rustyclam238]

This was an excellent video. I flew for 11 years in the 80s, and I wish I knew this information back then. This should be mandatory instruction for new pilots. I saw the Challenger blow up. I think it was due to cold weather, and ice forming on the seals. I never did think it was a good idea to lunch In cold weather.

[@fjb4932]

Haste makes waste. They didn't want to wait for better temps / postpone launch. Thought they were in a safe temp zone to launch . . . ☆

[@EllipsisAircraft]

Seals had issues by design. It was known and they had those problems before and got lucky. Same with the tiles on Columbia. That exact issue had happened a decade before when the crew knew it was a problem, and they got really, unbelievably, lucky.

[@donallan6396]

Great information for GA pilots and in particular the issue of the so called Impossible Turn, the 180 degree turn back to a departure runway when you experience an engine failure. This turn invariably becomes a steep turn which leads usually to a stall/spin . If you ever practiced these manouvers like we do in Canada , believe me you would be wary of doing it in an emergency.

[@RobotoForgoto]

Darn good video!

[@jogowing5993]

Thank you! I was reviewing for my PPL today and struggling to visualize the left turning tendencies. This made that very clear. I don't really know what you meant about the A/B line, etc., but everything else was very well explained. I especially liked the advice, "rudder hardest to push is the correct one to push" to break a spin. That is something that makes sense. Thank you!

[@Skinflaps_Meatslapper]

The AB line is something specific to ag flying. The GPS used to set up a pattern for us to follow is started by clicking a button to mark a spot on the field (A), then clicking again (B) to draw a straight line between the two points (AB). On a square or rectangular field, the AB line is usually on the downwind edge of the field, with A being the point where you cross into the field and B at the point where you leave the field, so your first pass along the edge dictates the parallel passes from that point forward. If you use a racetrack pattern, you'll also mark C, which will be on the other edge of the field. This tell the GPS that your field is so many passes wide, and it calculates where the center is. So the order goes first pass, last pass, and then center pass. After that, it's the second pass and the pass after center, and that pattern repeats in what looks like a racetrack from above until you reach the end. All stuff that's not relevant to GA, but maybe that helps explain some of the things you didn't catch.

[@EllipsisAircraft]

"Step on the heavy rudder" Look up the IAC articles by Eric Mueller. And Gene Beggs who verified the technique in many aircraft. Search Beggs-Mueller spin recovery technique.

[@markroush7182]

Now that was a video worth watching and though I'm an aviation enthusiast I'm unfortunately not a pilot.

[@DavesTurningShop]

Great video and advice. This trickles down to so many things in out life. I wish more pilots would train in departure issues and how to recover. We see a lot of crashes from stall spin in GA that, I think, could be prevented with the mindset you guys talked about and training.

[@EllipsisAircraft]

Feet on the floor, limit base-to-final bank angle to 20 degrees. If overshoot, maintain same bank until intercepting the extended runway centerline again, from outside the turn. Do not increase bank angle. Do not hurry the turn (or ever turn) with rudder.

[@dfinlen]

Not a pilot but just watched an hour long video cause KZbin algorithm be strong. Maybe I'll learn how to fly one day.

[@306champion]

I'm not a pilot but I have flown planes so I do understand some of this. I used to contract a great pilot to spray post emergent sprays on my wheat crops and this was awesome to watch. I am going back to before GPS when we stood at a fence line to mark out for the pilot. One day a neighbor asked me to mark out for him, okay I thought. I have no idea what plane it was but the tank was behind the cockpit. This bloke would have his wheels touching the crop and I would end up flat on the deck. Then when he came up to the trees he would YAW the plane and slide the wing around the tree trunk. I often wonder how long this bloke lived. A very bold pilot, I doubt he became an old pilot.

[@rainhart458]

There is a pod cast, hosted by a former RAF tornado pilot. Called “Fast Jet Performance”. In which he tells a story of how he became accustomed to skirting around a issue with his jet, not wanting to retract its landing gear after take off. And on a particular day, low hanging clouds rolled in. Which minimised the height which he could complete his rollercoaster manoeuvre…

[@charlesdurham6793]

These guys are sounding just like my dad did. He was flying ag for about 40 years

[@user-uh2lm2ik1g]

Excelente Instructivo para principiantes y veteranos. Sería interesante poder escuchar este video en Español, dado qué hay una cantidad de demanda de estas maravillosas aeronaves en Latinoamérica. Gracias Air Tractor.

[@gogogeedus]

Thanks fellows, very interesting stuff,What is your opinion on stepping on the ball?

[@whathasxgottodowithit3919.]

Stick with these words of wisdom, and it will keep you safe

[@davidhames319]

The elevator definitely becomes more sensitive The farther back the CG is and less sensitive the further forward it is.

[@EllipsisAircraft]

Truth.

[@HarvestTexas]

Not a pilot just a lifelong aviation buff, but this was very interesting and educational for me. In S. Texas as a kid I enjoyed watching Pawnees, Ag-Cats, Thrush Commanders up to today's 502's and 802's. Great knowing the science/physics that happens in the turns taking into account the load, speed, etc...

[@rosswilson5214]

Absolutely love the advice and I would like to receive the training recommended in the video. I would appreciate doing training with Steve in the T-6. Does Steve give Aerobatic and Ag training. If so please send me his contact details for next time when I am in the States. Great presentation.

[@paulrichards2365]

When I was training, I had what I would kindly describe as a psychotic or at least a suicidal instructor. He was of his rocker, abusing me non-stop for no real reason at all. With his constant harassment, I overshot on Base at about 500 feet. Up till then he didn't shut up, now at this most dangerous point he said NOTHING. I did a slow 180 descending turn, then in line with R11 did a sharp 90 descending turn for a good landing. Low speed and low altitude. I reported him to CASA. Maybe the only thing that saved me, is due to my inexperience at the time, I wasn't using rudder.

[@planespeaking]

Every pilot should watch this not just ag pilots. I bet similar number of GA accidents are low & slow accidents on landing approach

[@emergencylowmaneuvering7350]

A Turnaround is when you TURNAROUND SOMETHING. Like a TURNAROUND A FIELD, an Aiirport or an object on ground GRM. On Turnbacks you dont Turnaround anything, you Turnback to the nearest point on GRM or a field or another runway. Which is a different, quicker and steeper done maneuver. Many call those 2 different maneuvers as the same. They are not. And that is where most pilot errors happen. By thiinking about one maneuver (A milder bank, easier and safer to do Turnaround") and then have to change to a required STEEPER Turnback and they overshoot, pull and steep the turn and stall. Happens a lot

[@malcolmwichmann8359]

Wings level sir

[@jyellowhammer]

Most excellent presentation and what is said and demonstrated on here is the gospel. Follow procedure. Checklists are written in blood. No truer words spoken.

[@Phantom-nn6uq]

"Trust me" favorite crutch word.

[@race-all]

I'm not a pilot but have flown solo in an ultralight once in a breeze. I decided it wasn't for me. lol. I did not realize AG flying was that dangerous. I've been wanting to try bi planes though. Seen a couple in the fields flying. Good heads up for me but I'm not going to be doing AG work. Just recreational flying. I hope. Great video guys.

[@EllipsisAircraft]

Do it! You can fly Solo in a general aviation aircraft in as little as 8-12 hours and about $2,000. And after that, be allowed to fly cross country alone. With approval and signature of Your instructor each time.

[@gruberjohann800]

Have done a dozen stall-spin preventions during PPL lessons but could not understand your flight demonstration of doing wrong and correct.

[@EllipsisAircraft]

From my experience (PPL, Tailwheel, Some inverted time in Citabria and Pitts). Look out at the horizon, and do not let the nose yaw. Use the rudder to keep it dead perfectly straight. Then stall. (Slow down, wings level, pull back on the big stall lever). Keeping nose perfectly straight. It will probably not drop a wing an will bob and dip the nose in a "falling leaf" maneuver. Allow any yaw at all, and it will diverge into an incipient, then full spin a second or two later.

[@crawford323]

31k hours! my word!

[@EllipsisAircraft]

My check ride was with a former airshow and ag pilot who "stopped counting after 30k" and two engine out landings on roads...😮

[@coreyandnathanielchartier3749]

I think this is a great video, with some excellent observations and insight. I am surprised by one thing: I thought that pilots in commercial ag planes had to be trained in aerobatics, as they essentially perform airshow manoeuvers as part of the job. I live about a half mile away from a small airport with intensive ag activity, and the turbine guy banks over my house at about 75 degrees low enough that I can almost count the bugs on the windscreen. Free airshow about once a week.

[@Skinflaps_Meatslapper]

No, none of that is necessary, all you need to have is a CPL and an applicator's license issued by the state you're flying in for dealing with the chemicals.

[@rmp5s]

Would have liked to have seen an animation of the different types of turns. Race track, fast whatever...I have no idea what he was talking about...lol

[@TheJustinJ]

An excellent discussion about the left-yawing tendencies of a clockwise turning tractor propeller. But No mention of Elevator control position? The ONLY way an airplane stalls, is by exceeding the wing critical angle of attack. The only way to exceed the critical angle of attack of the wing, is up-elevator deflection. The only way the elevator is deflected up is with aft-stick. To perform a stall, one must get the stick back to point the wing exceeds its critical angle of attack, the aft-stick position that generates a stall is consistent for any given CG location. To prevent an inadvertent stall, one must simply refrain from pulling aft-stick. Thats It.

[@lembriggs1075]

You have much to learn here grasshopper.

[@jonnybbaby5150]

Ummm... ABSOLUTELY NOT!!! Someone needs to study "Bernoulli's Principal of Flight"... SIMPLY PUT

[@jonnybbaby5150]

Lift is not created by "A-O-A"... And "Angle of Attack" IS NOT even the EASIEST way to induce a "stall" if ANY type... Needless to say the ONLY WAY TO MAKE AN AIRFOIL STALL IS TO INDUCE TO HIGH OF A FORWARD-PRESSURE ANGLE OF ATTACK...

[@jonnybbaby5150]

Unless I've been doing it ALL DIFFERENTLY than EVERYONE ELSE for working on 25 years. If I'm wrong, PLEASE point me in the CORRECT DIRECTION because I'm evidently lost. Thanks to everyone... Stay safe out here and remember..... "It's not the flight that hurts, IT'S THE ABRUPT STOP AT THE END!" 🖖

[@TheJustinJ]

^ The above replies are the reason 10s of thousands of pilots are no longer with us. This is far simpler of an issue than anyone want's to believe. *The wing stalls at its critical angle of attack.* At the critical angle of attack, airflow separates from the upper surface of the wing. This reduces lift substantially as the critical angle is exceeded. Any additional angle of attack will result is exponentially less lift and more drag beyond the critical angle. The critical angle of attack is ~ 15 degrees for most common airfoils. (Although Reynolds number, camber, and leading edge shape play a role in the exact angle of attack which the airflow will separate). It will usually happen around 15 degrees for normal airfoils found on most GA aircraft. (Sources: NACA and Eppler). The wing is mounted to the fuselage at a fixed angle of incidence. So is the Horizontal stabilizer. They are both fixed to the fuselage in relation to each other, having the same or small difference in their respective incidence angles. The elevator sets the wings angle of attack while airborne. The wings angle of attack cannot pitch up significantly without up-elevator deflection. (Although vertical gusts can momentarily increase the angle of attack). *UNLESS the aircraft is loaded with a center of gravity at or behind the Neutral point. In which case the aft mass centroid will overpower the horizontal stabilizers lift, depressing the tail, and causing a divergent pitch-up. (This is know as relaxed static stability and is a stability feature of the F-16 and Wright 1903 flyer). So now we have established that a stall requires trimming the wing to +15 degrees AoA. And this can only happen with up-elevator input applied from cruise or any normal level flight or climbing/descending or turning maneuver. *Except when going straight up. Where the aircraft can be brought to a stop and backed downward in a tail slide without deflecting the elevator substantially. (Which again takes elevator to pitch to that angle in the first place). So to reiterate, in order to stall the wing; The wing must pitch to its critical angle of attack. In order to reach that angle or attack, barring extreme vertical maneuvers, the elevator must be deflected to trim the wing to that angle. If you slow the aircraft down to its stall speed in level, horizontal flight. This is also the critical angle of attack. Notice the nose high attitude? Why is it holding this higher nose attitude in slow flight? Notice your stick position. You are easing back on the controls to transition into and maintain slow flight. If you ease the stick forward you will descend and pick up speed. To fly slow, it requires up-elevator, which requires aft-stick. You say "no I'm not! Look, hands free!" ~ Yes, but that's because you trimmed out your stick forces. Allowing the elevator to deflect upward due to the trim tab being deflection downward by the trim controls. This upward elevator deflection trims the aircraft to the slow speed, which is near stall; near its critical angle of attack. An airfoil generates lift due to meeting the airflow at an angle of attack. There is a close relationship to angle of attack, and lift coefficient. The lift-curve slope of any given airfoil is simply CL/a. That is increment of Lift coefficient over angle. It is nearly a straight line extending up to stall. If you want more lift at a given speed, you need more angle of attack. If you want to fly upside down, you need negative angle of attack. It cannot be done any other way. The theoretical CL/a is 2pi Radians, (1 Rad is 57.3 degrees) and stalling angle of attack of conventional airfoils is 15degrees. (0.2618 radians). This results in an approximate Lift coefficient of 1.645. (Right in the range of most conventional airfoils). The NACA 23012 as found on many notable aircraft, has a well tested and verified CLmax of 1.64. Lift coefficient is increased by increasing the angle of attack. And lift is simply lift coefficient multiplied by free-stream dynamic pressure (q), multiplied by wing area.(At 60mph, is 88ft/sec. Where q= 9.2033 m) An aircraft having a wing loading of 15lb/ft^2 will begin to fly at this speed at an angle of attack of 14.83 degrees: Nearly stalled. (Probably stalled with any disturbances). An aircraft on the ground in landing attitude is not typically stalled. Even though pilots call it a "full stall landing" this is not entire true. Most taildragger/conventional gear aircraft sit at a 10-11 degree deck angle. With another 2-3 degrees of wing incidence. This equates to less than 15 degrees. Therefore it meets the oncoming air below its critical angle of attack while taxiing, three-point landing, or beginning the takeoff roll. The airflow is still attached ~ It's simply not flying yet, because dynamic pressure is too low to generate sufficient lift to carry the weight of the aircraft at this low speed. But the wing is not stalled! This is knowable and provable by the fact you can hold the tail low to generate lift, allowing the airplane to get light on the wheels at a much lower speed than is required for liftoff. This technique is used for soft field takeoffs. So, therefore the wing is not stalled as it still generates lift due to angle of attack and "q" while moving slowly on the ground. It has not exceeded its critical angle of attack. And it cannot, because the landing gear geometry where the tailwheel keeps the wings attitude below the critical angle of attack. Only once airborne, with sufficient back-stick, or up-elevator trim, and maybe prop-wash contributing to tail effectiveness, can you stall the airplane. By rotating to an angle of attack slightly higher than the ground angle of attack after liftoff, then the wing will stall. This fundamental principal applies everywhere and at all times. The elevator stalls the wing because the elevator is what trims the wing to it's angle of attack. And the elevator is connected to the stick, which must be displaced aft to deflect the elevator. Therefore, by not pulling aft, you can prevent the wing from stalling. The extreme opposite case is stalls can happen at any airspeed and attitude. Including while diving straight down at Vne. A stall can be induced with an aft-deflection of the stick. This is how you initiate a snap roll. Pull, stall, rudder, snap. At an airspeed well above stall. This is evident at any airshow or aerobatic contest. Where snap-rolls and tumbles are entered at speed above the stall speed. Often at Va (maximum maneuvering) speed.

[@davidcircuity6473]

Great program! I'm a novice pilot but I have a question: Compared to a 'racetrack' pattern, why not fly a safer helicaltrack' pattern? In a helicaltrack pattern the pilot makes continuous left turns like a racetrack; however in a helicaltrack pattern the pilot first flies the field sides as track AB & CD (as first pass and second pass), then the computer divides the field in half for track EF (midway between AB & CD). For the third pass, the pilot flies track EF. Now to form the helixtrack to finish the field, on the fourth pass, the pilot flies the track -C'-D' (inside and adjacent to track CD) and on the fifth pass the pilot flies track +E'+F' (outside and adjacent to track EF). The 4th and 5th pass define the turning radius which remains constant for the balance of the helicaltrack. The helicaltrack offers the advantage of all turns being the same radius and having the same "base leg distance" for the entire field and not requiring a back-to-back track pattern to finish the field. Bonus: To optimize spray/flight time on large fields, multiple helicaltrack patterns (spray zone areas) could be placed adjacent to each together and flown so that one helicaltrack pattern if finished before the next is started. The bonus multiple helicaltrack pattern approach optimizes flight time by minimizing (within safe tolerances) the "base leg distance" between spray passes. To me this approach would be both more economical and far safer. What are your thoughts?

[@Skinflaps_Meatslapper]

Our GPS units only account for A, B, and C points, D/E/F are redundant as they're simply pass numbers once you define boundaries. A racetrack pattern already accomplishes the same thing you're outlining, except the order goes a bit different. You start on the AB (swath 1), then go to the opposite edge for C (let's say there's 10 passes, so this would be swath 10), then you go to swath 2, 7, 3, 8, 4, 9. The GPS automatically calculates where that center swatch is going to be so you end up finishing the field with the same distance between all swaths. The pattern you choose makes little difference in turn rate if you have a very small field, i.e. racetrack on a 10 pass field is not going to be much different between a back to back (1,2,3,4, etc.) pattern, your turns won't be round, you'll still have to turn away from the pass to give yourself some room to make the turn back toward the field. On really large fields, a racetrack might mean that you turn toward the pass and then fly straight for a while until you get close enough to turn into the pass. If a good turn diameter for the load you're hauling is something like a quarter mile, then a half mile wide field fits that perfectly with a racetrack. If it's a mile wide, then your turn is going to be slow and huge, and you'll probably end up just turning a little tighter to start heading toward your next pass instead. If the field is a quarter mile wide, you're going to have to turn away from your pass to give yourself room to make that quarter mile turn. Now, if the field is really really huge, sometimes it's faster to just do a back to back because all of that unproductive straight and level flying to the next pass a mile away using a racetrack is going to waste more time. We have a lot of pattern options to choose from, probably more than what most of us ever actually use. Tossing out more patterns to learn can sometimes complicate matters more than the minor advantage they may offer. There are probably three patterns that get used all the time, and the rest are solutions waiting for a problem, they might offer an advantage but ultimately probably not. Back to back, racetrack, and reverse racetrack are the only patterns necessary, while other patterns like quicktrack is a variation on a racetrack and squeeze is a weird one that may or may not be something that helps. Skip is more useful for helis and their really tight turns, but if you have really calm wind conditions, a plane might make use of them to avoid flying into spray still left in the air.

[@nytom4info]

Fly the plane!!!!!!

[@lynwoodjones]

🙏🙏

[@TommieB1]

Ask him if he knows John Dowd jr. from Manhattan Kansas. From my hometown in New York

[@matthewwagner47]

That's when the plane wants to follow the natural turn of the aircraft and just corkscrews into the ground.

[@samkayak8712]

'As the hopper empties, the CG moves aft, and the elevator effectiveness is reduced'. (Video at approx 41:03) Is this the case? I thought that an aft CG increases pitch sensitivity? Can anyone help me with this?

[@SR-gs8zo]

one should mention that most of those deadly turns were done in the rectangular tradfick pattern over some airport, bcs everyone teaches this idiocy! make wide turns and keep the speed up according to bank angle! and never try to turn around after takeoff when the engine stalls...but rather learn to fly from places where you have free landi g possibilities straight from the field! too many runways niwadays are lcated within urban or industrially used areas, so the formerly small hedges and trees aeound the field and all the wide meadows around are now tall trees and overbuilt facilities...look for a safe place to fly....it.s the fault of the decelopment planning! who lets trees frow tall around an airfield straight within landing and takeoff direction? who gets oermission to build anything within that line if flight ? it originally was mostly farmland, open and no wires, not to speak about those endless wire and steel post landscapes nowadays....better look fir a safe and open place to fly...developement is not the issue, but lack of planning...airfields are dlowed down after they dut triangular layout down to crosses or even just one lane, thereby crosswind landings and takeoffs are niwadays the bug peoblem, causing accidents, same hies for rectangular pattern over airports, means tight turns, means high accident rates....and most accidents actually happen in the first flights with the newly aquired bird!

[@user-lq7hf1ww3k]

Teardrop Turns are safer. Unless at least 2,000 feet away from the place to end the Turnback. Beter Teardrop, not Hook or ? Turnback.

[@emergencylowmaneuvering7350]

Just practice the 2 main kinds of Turnbacks. Do on GRM first at 1k agl. The Teardrop Turnback and the Hook Turnback shaped. Many cant, and crash doing pilot errors on them on GRM , EFATO and Box Cannyon Turnbacks. 3 places to use them right.

[@jogowing5993]

Can you explain this a little more? GRM = ground reference maneuver? EFATO=?? I'm working on my PPL, and I'm not familiar with these terms yet.

[@dannyCOTW]

@@jogowing5993 engine failure after takeoff. Better yet, land straight ahead. You can always make a situation worse, and an unstabilized approach will do that no problem.

[@emergencylowmaneuvering7350]

@@jogowing5993 Do turnbacks after a flyover point on ground first (GRM Turnbacks). Then the EFATO ones.

[@emergencylowmaneuvering7350]

EFATO means Engine Fail After Take Off. Turnbacks are needed if you have the altitude to do them. Do power on first, then power off last from almost TPA.

[@EllipsisAircraft]

"Impossible turns" are not recommended in any aircraft, except sailplanes above 200agl. Or light single general aviation from standard pattern altitude. All others should land straight ahead on remaining runway, or if beyond the runway or higher altitude above 200' its best to land in a field or on road within 30-45 degrees of runway heading. Maybe 90 degrees is possible if above 400 feet. Depending on wing loading and speed available. Power loss at Yx will result in exceptionally rapid stall. From Vy you have 1 second to react and reduce deck angle below horizontal.

[@douggrant4329]

One of the blue page comments at the end said never use more than 10 degrees of flaps in any turn. Why? What is the danger of using more flaps?

[@tomcoryell]

Stalling the inside wing.

[@Skinflaps_Meatslapper]

If you're turning so hard that you need more than that, you're being too aggressive in your turns. Additional flaps also cause additional adverse yaw to counteract, given that all air tractors have flaperons, and when they're hanging down the aileron input gets really stiff. With full flaps it's easy to run out of rudder effectiveness in a turn as a result. All little factors by themselves, but all of them combined can contribute to one big problem.

[@jamesfrancom8100]

is there a glossary for all your ag slang? 'cause as a newcomer it is a new language.

[@christopherpeters5916]

Franco Turbo.

[@gaxsunruskia7839]

I can't believe they remade turn smart. These modern remakes are getting out of control.

[@99kevin99]

Nice ! "Risk has no memory..." So Lessons are ALWAYS "Lessons Documented". NOT "Lessons Learned!" Learning can never be validated because it only occurs between the ear-holes.

[@Arturo-lapaz]

good point, passing on the lesson will alert others about a risk not being aware of, but it should be followed up with a demonstration at a safe altitude to sink in. One ear in, out the other . CFIIG here, Crucial when landing gliders off field in little recognizable wind conditions, there is no go around , and the attempt to correct with a steep bank is fatal, lost more than a friend that way . Lesson : when making an off field landing choose a field early , where low altitude turns are not required, with added speed, at least half the estimated head wind speed, erring on the high side. Better to run safely on the ground off the end than upside down at the beginning of the ' field '

[@FritzWeinrebe]

The title of this video, "Auto Captions edit", does not make any sense? Otherwise excellent video.

[@erickborling1302]

Accelerated stalls

[@outwiththem]

Turnaround Maneuver OR Tunrback Maneuver? Different maneuvers referred as the same here.. On the Turnback you dont Turaround anything. The Turnaround is when you Turnaround the airport or field to be sprayed etc. What gives?

[@ctkpone2009]

Good video except for the DAMN ads every 3min. 3 ads just during the Col.part. REALLY....

[@DirkLarien]

14:50 WRONG when you move COG aft your elevator effectivness / authority is not reduced but increased. Thus making plane less stable and more maneuverable.

[@Skinflaps_Meatslapper]

In most any plane that's true, but Air Tractors fly weird as hell in certain conditions.

[@DirkLarien]

@@Skinflaps_Meatslapper That i can accept, however the explanation i cannot. And if i think about it. It actually makes lot more sense this way. Pilot is used to certain control response and eventually flies by a muscle memory. As the plane gets lighter and COG moves back -> getting more maneuverable, if he does not adjust force he applies to controls progressively there is a chance he might over correct and that might be the actual cause. Likely candidate is excessive rudder input. Or stalling one of the wings with ailerons when slow.

[@charlesproctor8250]

If CG is your pivot point of roll, pitch and yaw, the distance from CG to elevator is the fulcrum then moving CG aft decreases your fulcrum. Shortening the “lever” requires more force applied to do work. Hence decreases elevator effectiveness… No?

[@DirkLarien]

​ @Charles Proctor You are forgetting the most important thing. Center of lift needs to be taken into consideration. It is actually relation between COG and COL that is cause of all these various plane behaviors. CG is the pivot but imagine the plane is suspended in the air not from COG but from COL ;-). Normally in conventional plane your COG is in front of your COL. This causes the plane to want to constantly push down. But we have a tail which is counteracting this force. And if you were not have a tail to push down and therefore lifting your heavy nose. Your flying machine would just dive and fall. It could fly without the tail like flying wing designs but those two points COG and COL would have to overlap. Same would happen with our conventional plane. If were to move COG back, close to COL. All of a sudden tail would not need to generate any downward force. Now if you were to move your COG aft still. The rotational forces would invert. Your wing would want to pull you up around your pivot COG and that tail might not have enough authority to do anything about it. Or it could swing the other way violently. It would be statically unstable. Maneuverable but unstable. And any disturbing airflow would magnify the instability. That is why combat planes might want to be unstable but have to be controlled by computer a Fly by wire. We simply cannot keep up with the need for constant tiny corrections needed to fly unstable plane. It is actually more efficient way to fly aerodynamically speaking. Since with conventional stable planes of our general aviation planes are wasting energy by pushing down on the tail in order to stay leveled. Canard design is actually lot better in this regard since both wing surfaces are used to produce lift upwards. But that i digress. Hopefully it was understandable. If not paper airplanes can actually be used as good testing ground :-) cheers

[@EllipsisAircraft]

^ Aerodynamic Center (Center of Lift for a plain wing). Is the fulcrum. CofG can be ahead of it or behind it. If forward, the mass must be "lifted" against G-forces by download on tail. (Back-stick pressure or trim). As CofG travels aft to AC then there is no leverage needed. As it travels farther yet behind AC then it "assists" the tail down-load meaning forward-stick is needed to prevent divergence into a pitch-up. (The fixed portion of Horizontal stabilizer resists this). The point of no return for zero pitch stability is known as the Neutral point. And it is farther aft the larger the tail.

[@murdockpt]

Whats AGH!!!!?