The Little Giants: Forney Locomotives

These little engines often get overlooked because of their more famous and well-known cousins, the American 4-4-0, or even the Big Boy. But Forneys were amazing little puffers, that really changed the way a locomotive could be engineered and were often the locomotive of choice for municipal transit and narrow gauge short lines! This is all about the Forney Locomotive!
#trains #steamlocomotive #steamtrain
Walt's Disneyland Railroad Documentary:
• Walt's Disneyland Rail...
VIDEO CREDIT:
Footage of Leviathan 4-4-0 number 63 is credited to Dynamo Productions:
• Leviathan 63 Test Runs...
Footage of Wiscasset, Waterville & Farmington Ry in summer is credited to South Coast Rail Videos:
• Restored railroad: Wis...
Footage of Wiscasset, Waterville & Farmington Ry in winter is credited to John Meixel:
• Video
Footage of Fullerton Station is credited to RichardsTrainsAndMore:
• Railfanning Fullerton ...
Footage of Durango & Silverton RR is credited to FJX2000 Productions:
• The High Line of the D...
MUSIC CREDIT:
Acoustic/Folk Instrumental by Hyde - Free Instrumentals / davidhydemusic
Creative Commons - Attribution 3.0 Unported- CC BY 3.0
Free Download / Stream: bit.ly/acousti....
Music promoted by Audio Library • Acoustic Folk Instrume...
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"Affirmations" by Scott Buckley:
• 'Affirmations' [Bitter...
SOURCES/REFERENCES:
"Catechism of the Locomotive" by Matthias N. Forney:
archive.org/de...
About the Forney locomotive:
www.forneymuse...
en.wikipedia.o...
About Matthias N. Forney:
en.wikipedia.o...
About Rogue River Valley Railway:
www.historicja...
About the Wiscasset, Waterville & Farmington Ry:
www.wwfry.org/...
About Manhatten's "El trains"
www.bloomberg....
About Chicago's "El trains"
www.discoverli...
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DISCLAIMER: I am not a University-educated historian, Alex the Historian was a nickname I got while working at Disneyland as a tour guide. After 6 years of using it as a stage name for my channel, it would be detrimental to the channel to suddenly change the name.

[@russellgxy2905]

I only just realized this but another part of the Forney's flexibility was because they could place their driving wheels entirely in front of the firebox. 4-4-0's couldn't do this because it would lead to horrible rocking and swaying at speeds, so the firebox was usually placed in between the driving axles, which naturally spread apart the driving wheels from each other. With a Forney you could place them as close as you physically could!

[@AlextheHistorian]

Very astute observation! I didn't even realize that either

[@danielboone3770]

Forneys are amazing indeed! Love this video! In fact I actually love Forney #6 starting at 6:35.

[@cadetkohr5508]

Forneys really just make you smile when you see them. They're such cute little locos yet they can give some Americans a run for their money! I think I've heard of 2-4-4T Forneys out-preforming a few Prairies.

[@merrimacksacoproductions4497]

That would not surprise me in the slightest, the weight distribution plays a big role there, too much weight is spread across a Prairie's leading and trailing trucks, it can make them rather light on their feet seeing as their already rather small to begin with. One of my local railroads, Conway Scenic, they used to have two steamers in their early years, a 0-6-0, 7470, and a 2-6-2, 108, and there's a 3% grade coming into No. Conway yard. As trains became more popular, 4 cars were used, and 108 would be notorious for slipping and stalling, not able to make it up the hill if the conditions weren't just right. Meanwhile here's good ol' 7470, capable of hoofin' a 5 car train up the 3% with no problem, you can imagine which of the two is still on the roster today.

[@raymondleggs5508]

I love small steam locomotives.

[@dermottmcsorley8641]

The WW&F is building a new Fornney

[@OfMiceAndTrains]

Well done thanks FRED GURLEY is my favorite engine also.

[@jbponzi1]

YAY!! Fred!!

[@nordisk1874]

I love how there’s a famous porters in her original configuration. Before she got buffers and side tanks!

[@donl1410]

Bend Oregon, here. Very informative, Thanks

[@ManWhoLovesTheMary]

Dang. There is SO much new information in this video. I can now look at train locomotives and distinguish certain unique differences...and, you know, appreciate them better! I love how beefy and yet fine-lined vintage trains (and structures in general, really) used to be. I'm not saying there aren't impressive and elegant structures today. Each time period creates statements that become timeless. But, O, those vintage trains. I'm so glad people have cared enough for us to experience them today. Because I have been blown away and inspired by old locomotives I've been privileged to experience within my lifetime....Disneyland included.

[@leiac4046]

Amazing video! Best subject! Forneys are the BEST!

[@AARON-K4RNA]

I always learn something new from your videos. Thanks Alex

[@AlextheHistorian]

You're welcome!

[@swamppy4880]

The forneys are original was 2 ft narrow gauge,The W&W&F Ry,use forneys all the time. And the Maine narrow gauge museum has a couple of forneys are outside frame. They were used at Edaville railroad is in carver mass.

[@jusjetz]

The Little Engine that Could book version was based on those Foreneys except she’s a 4-2-4t Locomotive.

[@stevedegaetano8188]

Very nice Alex! Interestingly, while it doesn’t appear so, the Fred Gurley and the Ward Kimball are built to the exact same specifications. The Gurley, however, has that large fully-enclosed cab.

[@AlextheHistorian]

Thats strange I thought Kimballs boiler was 3 inches smaller in diameter, and the overall length was a foot or two shorter.

[@stevedegaetano8188]

They both even have the same Baldwin catalog number! The Kimball even had its smokebox door cast from the original Gurley pattern. When Preston made our drawings of the Kimball, we just started with the drawing of the Gurley that we already had.

[@Azure-Scenic-View-Railroad]

Thank you Alex, very helpful for me and my layout ideas.

[@ShackCoreContingency]

Alex, it finally caught traction. The difference between the engines C.K. Holiday and E.P. Ripley (4-4-0), and the 2-4-4(0) Forney engines. I get it now now.

[@mike.4277]

This is my second comment since my first one is gone for some reason. I said in my first comment, great excellent video 😎👍. Then said to search Honesdale,pa. It is the birthplace of the American Railroad. They have lots of history and a working replica of the Stourbridge Lion, the first ever made locomotive.

[@reenabearkitty]

I know almost next to nothing about trains. Thanks for the info 🙂

[@Sckadoo]

I've been playing a bunch of Railroads Online recently and have been itching for content. This really helped satisfy that itch lol

[@markrutlidge5427]

I've never heard of these, so thanks 👍👍

[@RailPreserver2K]

Might want to go down to Massachusetts and Maine respectively if you want to see more of them

[@DanielGomez-gw4kt]

Alex I love the forney steam locomotives, they're very interesting and one of the littlest steam locomotives in America

[@kupferbergbahn7952]

Very nice to see a full video about these fantastic little engines. Forneys are definitely my favorite steam locomotive too, I've actually designed my own for my model railroad.

[@a101a6]

Interesting note is the improved/offshoots of the Forney design. For example the Disneyland Forney's are technically no longer Forney's due to the addition the single pilot axle as the 2-4-4 is actually called a "Boston" type. There was a larger and more powerful design of the Forney called a "Super Forney" which was a 0-6-4. Also the early Forney designs by Matthias Forney were actually designed to run bunker first which is why we see examples of 0-4-4's with cowcatchers on the rear instead of the front.

[@RaeAnn_1202]

Alex, I thoroughly enjoyed this video! I learned a lot and the way it is written and edited made learning extra fun. Very well done. Thank you!

[@AlextheHistorian]

Thanks!

[@luislaplume8261]

The Forneys were mostly used for the elevated train lines of the cities of New York City, Brooklyn and Chicago and Sioux City.

[@AlextheHistorian]

Yes indeed, I mentioned that in the video

[@SAOS451316]

Good work once again! I liked the technical aspects of how these trains worked and why.

[@michelleluna4278]

Makes me want to get into railroading. I have the old model trains that belonged to a model my dad built in our basement when I was a teenager.

[@danielboone3770]

I love Forney #1911 starting at 1:08 too!

[@katiestoker8391]

These trains remind me of the tiny ones that where used in Wales for various jobs. They are so small you often think there is no way, but they do. I've ridden some of them, the views are amazing. They are sometimes referred to as the great little trains of Wales

[@royreynolds108]

The Maine 2-footers were inspired by the Festiniog Rwy. in Wales.

[@lindasolis7117]

Aw sweet- thanks so much, Alex! Love these trains and all the footage from Disneyalnd 😍

[@ID2956]

Wunderful video ❤ Thank you!

[@NorseNerdleMeister]

Alex, my ON30 Forney has been a little temperamental as I’ve been using it for my layouts 3 coach passenger train. It was running inconsistently and stalling. My layout is not 100% level, so I thought the Forney was just not suited to it and almost gave up. I decided to try and pull my 9 car freight train with it and wow, it works flawlessly! The little giant seems to thrive under more weight and it’s amazing that Bachmann was able to translate that realism into actual operation!

[@pedenharley6266]

Alex! Fabulous video!! Thank you for this!

[@VirginiaRican]

Wow, for passenger count, that's like the same as a dream liner

[@jetsons101]

Alex, very informative and detailed video. Thanks for all the time you spend on research, editing and writing the script. Overall, a very enjoyable watch.....

[@AlextheHistorian]

Thank you!

[@jetsons101]

@@AlextheHistorian Sorry about the short comment but I'm rebuilding a doorway.....

[@AlextheHistorian]

Thats alright Mike, I dont hold expectations to commentators!

[@TheTransportationFanfromCA]

0:51 that one of my favorite engines Sierra 28, ps very good video Alex.

[@johnmeixel9928]

Thanks for using my videos in yours!

[@AlextheHistorian]

You took really amazing footage!

[@toshibavoodoo]

Awesome!! Great video

[@AlextheHistorian]

Thank you!

[@NorseNerdleMeister]

Such a well-done and detailed vid. It’s so cool to hear the both the history and technics of this engine. The ingenuity of the design was amazing! Dang, now I want one for my train layout 😁

[@AlextheHistorian]

Lol I probably would have made a good car salesman

[@luislaplume8261]

@@AlextheHistorian Believe it or not, my late father's father was a Dodge Motor Car salesman in the 1920s in Havana,Cuba. He was bi lingual as am I.

[@CiscoRoo]

Very interesting and informative!

[@AlextheHistorian]

Thanks!

[@dp92492]

Always love learning new information about the history of railroading. Thanks for the great vid!

[@VestedUTuber]

"Big Boy is the largest steam locomotive ever built" Jawn Henry: "What am I, chopped liver?"

[@johnkuzma7066]

Don't need to be nitpickiy but Tractive effort isn't at all related to the weight on the drivers, it only relates to the cylinder bore, stroke and wheel diameter as well as boiler pressure. Adhesion and weight distribution are the only things that the number of drivers changes. So more wheels means you can have more Tractive effort without slipping but doesn't give you any more power.

[@AlextheHistorian]

I'm trying to explain things in a way that newbies can understand. If they want the nuanced information they can do research from there.

[@stevedegaetano8188]

True. The formula is available online. It’s pretty straightforward and weight isn’t a variable.

[@daveshockwave8098]

The 0-4-4s, and 2-4-4s are really cool, then the DSP&P came and there were the 2-6-6s, and 2-8-6s

[@Uptownloki47]

Great video. Forneys are definitely locomotives that many people sleep on. Could you potentially do a video on the Disney World railroad next?

[@AlextheHistorian]

Unfortunately I won't be making any videos of the Disney World Railroad.

[@pinchy08]

I don’t know why, but he doesn’t like Disney World in Florida as much as Disneyland in California.

[@royreynolds108]

@@pinchy08 The first 2 locos for Disneyland were built new. The castings even have Disneyland on them. The locos for DisneyWorld are rebuilt plantation engines.

[@pinchy08]

Actually the Disney World locomotives once hauled sugar cane in Mexico. 2 4-6-0s, 1 2-6-0, and 1 4-4-0. Even though a 5th locomotive was purchased, it was deemed in rough shape to restore. However its smokestack was salvaged and used on 4-4-0 #4.

[@josephpiskac2781]

The Civil War Union Military Railroad is interesting.

[@jetsons101]

Alex, the research you do for your videos is so encompassing. I love vintage steam, but this vid filled in some gaps for me. Thanks for the time and hard work you put into your videos.

[@AlextheHistorian]

You're welcome!

[@NewEnglandFoamer]

As a forney myself I can confirm we have some advantages

[@chiparooo]

Very interesting history! Well done. Thanks for sharing!

[@raphaelmarquez9650]

These Forney Locomotives have more design appeal than modern trains, so I hope they make electric-powered variants of these models to make environmentally friendly trains without sacrificing their look factor.

[@jeffreycharles5035]

Cool video and even snuck a little disneyland history in there!

[@AlextheHistorian]

Had to! Lol

[@underthebus5801]

Thank you for explaining the 4-4-0 wheel configuration in simple terms. You are articulate and all your videos are a pleasure to watch and informative. I’ve sub and look forward to future presentations.

[@AlextheHistorian]

Thanks!

[@newobanproductions999]

While the 0-4-4T was a dependable configuration in the US, the same couldn't be said for the UK who found only _one_ use of it. To the British, the 0-4-4T only found usage as a suburban tank engine with examples dating back to the 1870s. These were mainly built exclusively as side tanks (much like the engine at 4:20, which is a USATC S100 0-6-0T built during WWII for use in Europe, which last I heard that two Yugoslavian-built copies are still being used today in Bosnia) and sometimes even a heavier front bufferbeam as a way of putting the most weight on the driving wheels. British 0-4-4Ts were used on suburban trains and many had pretty long lives, many even lasting into the 1960s under British Railways. Today, six 0-4-4Ts are preserved (1x CR 439, 1x SE&CR H, 2x LSWR M7s, 1x Met E and 1x LSWR O2) with a brand new NER O (LNER G5) under construction. 0-4-4Ts were also used on the 1ft 11.5in gauge Ffestiniog Railway in Wales but as "Single Fairlies" (or "Mason Bogie" in the US, but the Brits would say otherwise because "we created it").

[@AlextheHistorian]

When you say they were used as a "suburban" tank engine, I'm not sure what you mean by that...was it used the same way as a light rail system through suburban neighborhoods and towns?

[@newobanproductions999]

@@AlextheHistorian In UK circles, "suburban" refers to commuter or branch line passenger work. These workings require a powerful locomotive with good acceleration. Engines like the Adams Radial (an 4-4-2T), the Terrier (the famous 0-6-0T like class member Stepney) and Gresley N2 (an 0-6-2T) were built for this role.

[@royreynolds108]

@@AlextheHistorian Suburban service is commuter service. The Illinois Central operated suburban service or commuter service in Chicago. That line was electrified and is still in use. I photographed one of the IC suburban engines in North Peoria, IL in 1966 at Vonachins Junction Restaurant. It had been built by Rogers Locomotive Works.

[@Transit_Biker]

Awesome video! Gotta make one on the geared locomotives at some point!

[@raymondleggs5508]

Amusement park sized locomotives.

[@Emerald-764]

I love this video, you did a great job

[@AlextheHistorian]

Thank you!

[@Emerald-764]

@@AlextheHistorian you're welcome. Forneys are some of my favorite locomotives and I volunteer at a museum that has a few

[@Zebrails]

"Thumbs Up" 480 Mastodon... Now I want a Forney. I have two O-4-4 aftershave decanters. Not the same as an electric I can put on rails and power up... I'm not sure I could safely still use the liquid contents of these as power scents, if I have any sense to add my own two cents... John

[@RailPreserver2K]

By the way Alex do you think you could do a video covering the Glover machine works out of Marietta Georgia? They built steam locomotives for a very brief time and I think only six or seven of them still exist. I know the plant in Marietta survived until 1995 and when they went to go tear it down they went in and salvaged as many blueprints, Patterns, parts and machines as they could as well as apparently two or three locomotives that were still inside the plant after 90 years

[@NW-gi1cp]

Imagine a video about the n&w 1218

[@fiercetrains4052]

You know the ward kimbell was preivously owned by cedar point right? It's name while working for the CP&LE was "Maud L."

[@AlextheHistorian]

Yes in my video about the history of the Disneyland Railroad I go into detail about all 5 engines.

[@nicolaiholm7458]

Thank you for yet another good video I learned a lot of new things from it

[@AlextheHistorian]

Thanks Nicolai!

[@DC4260Productions]

4:26 - That locomotive is not a Porter, but rather a USATC 'S100' class (still a good video regardless). If memory serves, the S100s were built during World War 2, with most of them being exported to Europe and Asia. At least one is still preserved in the US, at that's Granite Rock number 10.

[@pinchy08]

Do you have any other upcoming videos discussing other steam locomotives by wheel arrangement? Do the 4-4-0 next.

[@AlextheHistorian]

Definitely!

[@jeremyjohnson457]

2-6-6-2 and tank engine 2-6-6-2t 1905 design was rated for 9% grades. Most surviving of the type, the tourist railroads have a hard time keeping weight behind the locomotives.

[@jeremiahintercityrail10]

3:31 water sat in a tank never heard of those

[@aidenayers2486]

3:58 I wonder if the mine trains from big thunder mountain would be Forneys. This is what I imagine it to look like.

[@AlextheHistorian]

The ones from Big Thunder are Porter style saddle tank engines.

[@microbusss]

the original WW&F ran from 1895 to 1933 & the new one started in 1989 the Santa Fe in the SF&D RR was dropped on September 30, 1974 when their sponsorship ended

[@AlextheHistorian]

When it comes to the history of the WW&F Ry, the history is a bit more nuanced then that. The Wiscasset, Waterville and Farmington Railway was formed in 1907 and was a running company until 1940 when the company went dormant...but technically it never abandoned, so in 1985 they were able to get the company back on its feet and continue running it as the WW&F Ry. This information is available on the museum's website, a link for it is provided in the description of the video. And yes you're correct, the Santa Fe company dropped its sponsorship in 1974, though I'm sure that was just a fun fact you were adding in, and not necessarily correcting.

[@microbusss]

@@AlextheHistorian I hope the WW&F makes the track longer in the future too ;-)

[@damianstellabott3613]

Forney had a descendent who worked at Disneyland in the 90s. He pronounced his name For-nay.

[@ReggieArford]

"Porter" is not a description of a variety of locomotive. It's the name of a company that built locomotives. They usually built small 0-4-0 industrial locomotives.

[@AlextheHistorian]

I understand, but the 0-4-0 became synonymous with the phrase "Porter Style". It's the same reason today why people call facial tissues "Kleenex" even if that's not the brand they are specifically referencing.

[@DanielGomez-gw4kt]

Alex I know there were Narrow Gauge forney steam locomotives, but have there been any standard gauge forney steam locomotives. That ran on standard gauge track ?

[@AlextheHistorian]

Yes, in fact most of the photographs of Forneys that I showed in this video were all standard gauge Forneys. Even the elevated railway Forneys were standard gauge. And the Rogue River Valley Railway also used standard gauge Forneys. There were far more standard guage Forneys manufactured, than there were narrow gauge.

[@luislaplume8261]

@@AlextheHistorian True! The El stations in NYC and in Brooklyn which the was it's own city had narrow platforms to fit in the streets.

[@docjc1842]

Not to be that girl but if a machine could be cute this one is! Nice video!

[@robnewman6101]

If you didn't know, the 1860s were the darkest decade during the 19th Century.

[@Orlandov12]

The locomotive at 5:55 is not a forney- it is a mason bogie, the difference is the mason bogies had driving wheels on an articulated frame, hence why the firebox is so far behind the power truck. I believe the only mason bogie still in operation today is at greenfield village.

[@AlextheHistorian]

But Forney's also had a firebox far behind the driving wheels. I don't see the difference

[@Orlandov12]

@@AlextheHistorian the difference is the forney locomotives driving wheels are in a rigid frame, the mason bogie's are not, the driving wheels are on a power truck and can swivel to negotiate tighter turns. The mason bogie is similar to a fairlie locomotive. I brought up the far back firebox placement because it allows the power truck to swivel in front of it.

[@AlextheHistorian]

Oh ok, I see.

[@OldIronVideo]

Fred and ward where built to the same blue prints so i think they are the same size

[@clivesurman3285]

Hi Alex. I have a couple of suggestions for you regarding the Queen Mary. . What is the best way to contact you please?

[@AlextheHistorian]

Hello Clive, email is best: [e-mail]

[@clivesurman3285]

Thanks Alex. I sent u a test message so hopefully u receive it. 🙂

[@willsen8908]

Fun fact the 4-8-8-4 big boy is not actually the biggest steam locomotive, and neither is the C&O 2-6-6-6 Allegheny

[@therailfanman2078]

The WW&F No. 9 is there only currently operating locomotive, but they are building another 2-4-4T, No. 11. They also have No. 8 but that one is currently not operating. She really needs a new paint job

[@treavy1]

And Edavilll railroad in wareham Massachusetts s who also run them for cranberry harvest