The Tomb of King Richard III's Son?

[@caitlinallen8400]

I find it incredibly sad that this poor child's resting place is not known for sure. As a mother myself, the thought of a child's grave being lost and no longer honored makes me sorrowful. Keep up the good work, Antiquarian!

[@TerryC69]

Hi Allan! There is a certain melancholy quality to this story. This is a very human story. The idea of losing a child at so young an age must have been a heartbreaking nightmare for both his parents.

[@allanbarton]

It is unimaginable and for it to be there only child too - it must have been agonising.

[@greentree68]

@@allanbartondidn’t Richard III have two illegitimate children as well?

[@brettanymichellelawson-top5197]

​@allanbarton its prince Edward of middleham

[@katjack2780]

The account of Richard and Anne's grief at the death of their son and heir is later eerily echoed in the life of Henry Tudor, Richard's great enemy. As Henry VII, he too experienced the early death of his son and heir Arthur. How Henry and Elizabeth mourned while trying to support each other was also a very moving story.

[@michaelmullard4292]

As a sacristan of some 20 years, it makes me wonder how different the duties of a sacristan would have been in the Middle Ages. Wish I had eyes that could look back to those times and ears to hear the sounds of that chantry.

[@margheritatimeus3400]

It was an happy marriage (and Edward a really beloved child), a union based on affection started in childhood, as young Richard was sent to be grown up in Warwick's household, so he and Anne spend their childhood together. Convincing Edward IV to allow him to marry her, Richard got control of her many properties, but above all he saved her from being forced to retire in a nunery, as her sister and her brother-in-law (Richard's senior brother George Duke of Clarence) wanted, in order to absorbe also her half of Warwick's heritage. Richard is reported to be destroyed by grief by the loss of both his wife and his only legitimate son (he had also two illegitimate children, a boy and a girl, born before he married Anne...). Someone thinks that his grief lead him to face Henry Tudor at Bosworth Field in a sort of desperate mood, as a man that at that point had no hope for the future left. It's very sad that a man who was so attached to his family became famous above all through Shakespeare's version, in which he is portraited as an heartless schemer and even the cause of his own wife's death...

[@ludovica8221]

OOOh fabulous!! More like this please. There s nothing more fascinating and mysterious/intriguing than medieval tombs especially with effigies. I have been passionate about them since I was a small child

[@stepps511]

I am fascinated and grateful to you for this most interesting story of Prince Edward. Thank you, Allan, for the back story and the visit to both these wonderful churches.

[@rickynewport6339]

Another fascinating video. You make a convincing case that this was not the young Prince Edward's tomb. The deep grief of his parents is certainly understandable on purely personal grounds, but the death of the young prrince also had political implications. The loss of his heir and only legitimate child helped to destabilize Richard's rule and embolden his enemies.

[@brendonmcmorrow3886]

Very interesting. I just remembered that Anne Neville is buried in a largely hidden grave in Westminster Abbey. It is rather poignant that this family of three have ended up in burial places in different places in England.

[@allanbarton]

She is, in an unmarked grave right in front of the sedilia next to the high altar of the Abbey. He coffin was discovered in the 1860s when the new altar step of the Abbey was being laid. Very sad that none of them really had an adequate memorial.

[@brendonmcmorrow3886]

@@allanbarton Many thanks. I was lucky enough to stand on the Cosmati pavement yesterday (socks only) and now realise that I was pretty much on top of Anne's tomb. It doesn't help that the plaque recording her burial is in the ambulatory. The only justice I can conjure is that this often forgotten Queen Anne is buried close to another frequently forgotten Queen Anne, namely Anne of Cleves.

[@YorkistRaven]

@@brendonmcmorrow3886 I have been told by another Ricardian that Anne's tomb was lost; that there were a lot of people whose bones ended up mixed all up together. I said, is there no coffin, no plaque? If they do have her remains, she deserves to have a decent memorial and tomb. Some of us want to pay our respects.😪🙏

[@brendonmcmorrow3886]

@@YorkistRaven There is a plaque dating from the 1960s but it's easily missed.

[@YorkistRaven]

@@brendonmcmorrow3886 Yes, I have heard of the plaque...but if she has a coffin, (and I am very glad to hear it if she does) and her remains are still in it, she deserves something better as Queen.

[@YorkistRaven]

Oh my goodness. I was super excited when I saw you posted a video on this Church! I quailed at the thought of entering St. Helen's, Sheriff Hutton, the first time I visited. Not only has it become the memorial site for the Prince (who is my 2nd cousin 18 times removed), some of my Neville kin are buried there. The cenotaph is not Prince Edward's, but it has become a devotional site to his memory, nevertheless. I was blessed to finally visit on a day the Church just 'happened' to be open. I was 'alone' there. When I saw the little monument, I broke down and sobbed. I lit three candles and I sat by the cenotaph and prayed the whole book of Psalms. I calmed down, and soon a feeling of the most tender peace came over me. It usually takes me 4 hours to pray the book of Psalms, and I ended up staying for that, and then then a few more hours exploring the outside. The reports of what the King did after hearing the tragic news at Nottingham castle tell that he and Queen Anne did go North, but she went straight to Middleham, and the King went first to York. Then he stayed a day or two with a friend, I believe it was Thomas Metcalfe, on the way to Middleham before finally arriving. We do not know what he was doing during this time. Perhaps matters of state, but I have to wonder if he was not having his Will changed. Also, a King cannot be in a state of overwhelming grief in public. He may have taken some time to grieve privately, before having to resume his public duties. I have visited St. Alkelda's Middleham. I got to be alone in that Church as well. It is haunted, but not by the young Prince. I tried to ignore what I felt, but I could not. It was not a horrible feeling but one of being watched, and a presence. I think perhaps a cleric. When I pray for Edward of Middleham I include his parents. Wherever the Prince Edward rests, I believe his soul is with G-d and the souls of King Richard and Queen Anne, who would have been there with him when he died, if they could have been. At the back of the cemetery at St. Helen's Church is a bench with gorgeous views. A trail starts there that goes to Sheriff Hutton castle. It is quite charming in May and June. The castle has a powerful, yet welcoming and peaceful vibe to it. I was grinning ear to ear when I walked under the Plantagenet and Neville crests over the gate. Many of my ancestors lived there, including big Daddy Ralph Neville, who is my 19th GGF. I stayed at Sheriff Hutton Castle 2 days and nights in May and again in June, both during full moons. It was unforgettable. Sweet Sheriff Hutton! My impression was not one of sorrow, but of many happy hours spent there, and and of lots children running about playing (back in the day). It is of my most beloved places in England. I pray those will not be the last times I see Sheriff Hutton and St. Helen's Church.

[@gonefishing167]

How special for you and how lovely to pray for the young boy. I’m indifferent those who believe that Richard snd Anne loved each other and must have been devastated by the demise of their only child. I know I have nothing to do with these things but I’d love it if Annes plaque in Westminster abbey was taken to Leicester to be with Richards tomb. Just a thought of mine. Bless you, hope you do get their again 🙏🙏🙏👵🇦🇺

[@yvonnejohnson1004]

I wish that Richard 111 was buried in York Cathedral. That’s where he’d wished to be buried. I know it’s against the law but he was the Glorious son of York, the last Plantagenet King. Having just watched where he was found in a Leicester car park I still feel he’s buried in the wrong place.

[@YorkistRaven]

@@yvonnejohnson1004 thank you kindly! Since York Minster rejected him, I feel they do not deserve him. Neither does Leicester cathedral; they defamed him from before he was buried there. At least his shrine is the only one; at the Minster, he would have been one of many. Where would they have placed his tomb? I have visited his shrine and thought it painfully plain, however! the energy there is awesomely intense. Bless

[@clark5242]

Thanks for the story. I felt like I was there.

[@gonefishing167]

Thank you Allen, it had been a hope of mine since the age of 11 ( long story) to visit Middleham Castle. Hoped to make it in 2003 but, sadly, no. I did get the opportunity a few years back. Didn’t realise how difficult it was to get there. I was told they were filming something there and Dame Judi Dench was in it. ( they then filmed in the Viking museum in York. Never seen anything though). I made it though thanks to the efforts of the marvellous people st my B&B. It was marvellous , everything I wanted. I love York snd the first time we went ( hubby was here then), it was so special. They had a mock trial set up in Monks Bar. Jaqueline Rey’s book had been released . Wonderful. Thank you Allen and forgive me raving on but - childhood wishes are so special if you get to do them. Poor young boy. He’s somewhere and he’s still special 🙏🙏🙏👵🇦🇺

[@Punnery]

Good points! The son of a king would have warranted top-quality materials (unless maybe it was done by sympathetic Yorkists after 1485); a nobleman's son, perhaps not quite so top quality. And I think you're right: the evidence of the clothing and hair styles suggests an earlier decade. I seem to remember a portrait of Henry V with that hair style.

[@adriansmith6993]

Such a fascinating story. You sure know how to put together your stories. I totally enjoy the history! ❤

[@sweptashore]

The evidence does point to the tomb being that of Ralph or John Neville. I know the story wouldn't be quite as glamourous, but it would be nice if the church at Sheriff Hutton updated their cards -- it's still quite interesting. Both churches are lovely -- to be stood in surroundings of such age always touches the soul, I think.

[@allanbarton]

Without question, from an art historical point of view (my specialism) it cannot be as late as the 1480's, it is evidently from the first half of the fifteenth century. It extraordinary how many people still consider it to be Edward's tomb.

[@sweptashore]

@@allanbarton To be fair, even Wikipedia (that unassailable source 😉) agrees with your assessment.

[@allanbarton]

@@sweptashore does it - must be right then. I know there are still some who are think it is Edward, I read all the articles in the Ricardian about this - the debate was heated!

[@jefferycsm]

Allan, you give illuminating and interesting lessons about history! Thanks from America!

[@allanbarton]

My pleasure Jeffrey, thanks for saying so.

[@eliotreader8220]

@@allanbarton A very interesting video about the son of Richard the third. I noticed that he was dressed in plate armour in the picture that you showed of him.

[@tonyharpur8383]

Another excellent, thought-provoking provoking video, Allan!

[@carrie4696]

The heady days of the coronation were exciting but I’m very glad to be back to normal. This is one of my favourites already. And one of my very favourite parts of the world. Lovely old forest.

[@allanbarton]

Yes, me too. I enjoyed the coronation stuff and it was a real deep dive - but this is my bread and butter stuff. It is a lovely part of the world.

[@jenniferstone2975]

You’re an outstanding presenter! I really enjoy your videos. They are packed with interesting facts, a complete tale from start to finish. Thank you!

[@marthavanbeek-putters]

Bedankt

[@allanbarton]

Thank you very much Martha.

[@davisd_ambly4067]

Such a joy to hear your erudite thoughts. I am grateful for this channel!

[@churchcrawling]

Great video, Allan. I know the church well and have been meaning to visit again myself when I find the time. Your informative video serves as a good refresher, thank you! The quality of the alabaster rather reminds me of a tissue that has gone through the a machine in the pocket of a pair of trousers.

[@dianetheisen8664]

Thank you for this fascinating Story of a young Prince.👑

[@snoozieq4584]

I hope that you are feeling better, Dr. Barton. Thank you for taking the time to post this lovely video!

[@allanbarton]

I am very well now thank you and with lots of content to come.

[@snoozieq4584]

@@allanbarton 🥰🥰🤗🤗😘😘

[@Ayslhyn]

Really intriguing video. Thank you for making these I really look forward to seeing a new one pop up.

[@pixbychris3182]

Another fascinating video. Many thanks

[@TyrSkyFatherOfTheGods]

Welcome back, Allan! How delightful to see a church from the north of England! I'll be interested in comparing the features and themes with those of your Norfolk stomping ground.

[@allanbarton]

I'm getting out and about at the moment which is wonderful - I'm recently back from a week in Somerset and the churches there are different again.

[@Ionabrodie69]

We have an immense amount of Churches of note and Castles.. the North was a powerful place in early and Middle Ages.. .😊🇬🇧

[@happycommuter3523]

So interesting-love this! The surrounding countryside looks so beautiful and peaceful.

[@amymahers2957]

So interesting! I appreciate the points you make to back your standing. Your videos are always educational, well photographed and sends one to the history books for more info. Well done and thank you!

[@allanbarton]

Thanks Amy, that is just what I hope it does, whet people's appetite for more. I'm glad you enjoyed it.

[@annettewillis2797]

How fascinating, mysterious and enlightening Allan. It is also quite a melancholy tale of a young life lost and a tomb that seems to have wandered over time. That it survives also seems miraculous to me. It was a time of great turmoil and great grief too. Many thanks Allan. Always enlightening!

[@christinewells-leddon9287]

Superb, as always. As others have noted, there is a pathos to the story that is heartbreaking (even at this late remove)

[@Jo_Lori]

Thank you very much. I always enjoy your content. When my financial situation is better, I will subscribe to your magazine!

[@allanbarton]

Thank you very much! Glad you're enjoying my channel!

[@nancycrayton2738]

Thank you for these posts. They are fascinating!

[@christinesuccop1812]

Once again very interesting. Thanks.

[@TuckerSP2011]

Very interesting subject. I was enthralled with the discovery of Richard III's remains under the car park and watched a few documentaries and read a book about it. So interesting. It was a very sad account of how bereaved Prince Edward's parents were. The whole period of time seems so tinged with sadness and loss.

[@barkingmad50]

Bb

[@D1331D]

He now lays in the middle of St. Martin's, Leicester. Why did they have to put him in the middle of the small cathedral? He was only King of England from 26 June 1483 until his death on 22 August 1485.

[@Wosiewose]

@@D1331D My guess is that they placed him there because he is such a well-known historical figure, and the tomb will have many visitors.

[@D1331D]

@@Wosiewose I understand what you're saying but there is still doubt about his Nephews in the tower so is he guilty? Leicester is my home city so Richard III and the battle of Bosworth is what I grew up with.

[@Wosiewose]

@@D1331D I would love to visit you sometime! It would be so fun to buy you a cup of tea and learn about your experiences growing up in such a history-filled place! :)

[@dianespears6057]

Excellent as always. These are so very interesting and so thorough. Thank you.

[@davidmclaughlin2796]

That's a good video Barton. I love your film work the way you dig into the history, thank you. David

[@terryhutchings7701]

Just an American here trying to escape my country’s own turbulent time right now in 2024, by watching British history. I only know what I read in American history books, but did I read or hear somewhere that the Tudors are not really the rightful heirs to the throne and Richard’s brother Edward was only a half brother. Rumor, fact or just rubbish?? Respect to all here. Thanks for sharing. Fascinating.

[@nadiabrook7871]

Thanks for yet another VERY INTERESTING video, Allan!! 👍❤💗

[@martinwarner1178]

Lovely video. I muse plenty about the life of Richard III. Last true king of England, as some say, including me. Always enjoy your work. Thank you. Peace be unto you.

[@nancytestani1470]

Losing a child often happened ..in medieval, all through the centuries…

[@simenonhonore]

Informative and well argued - many thanks for this video.

[@johnwhitehead4446]

Another excellent video about a monument I have known since my earliest years. I agree with your argument - and that of Routh and Knowles - about its date. Watching your video made me wonder if it is actually a tomb but rather a cenotaph for an adult who died at Sheriff Hutton and whose heart or other internal organs were once buried beneath it before burial elsewhere. The reconstructed cenotaph of Queen Eleanor at Lincoln comes to mind. That might account for it not being of the highest quality - although it does look to have been exposed to the weather for a while, and that would destroy the finer detail of the carving in alabaster. Could it even be Ralph the first Earl of Westmorland and hence the cap of maintenance indicating his rank? He died in 1425, and the small Sheriff Hutton tomb chest is very similar to that of Robert Waterton at Methley, and who also died in 1425. Is it known where Earl Ralph died?

[@YorkistRaven]

This is very interesting! Ralph, 1st Earl of Westmorland is buried at Staindrop Church near Raby Castle. His tomb is a famous one. His effigy is flanked by both of his wives! I have thought for a long time that the 'tomb' was a cenotaph. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ralph_Neville,_1st_Earl_of_Westmorland

[@johnwhitehead4446]

@@YorkistRaven The Staindrop tomb of the Earl and his Countesses has of course been moved. Originally it was in the middle of the chancel but is now at the west end of the church.

[@glengrieve544]

Great content and beautifully presented

[@allanbarton]

Thanks very much, glad you enjoyed it!

[@marthavanbeek-putters]

I read the book the discovery of Richard’s III lost burial place and the clues it holds written by Philippa Langley and Michael Jones. This story is also very interesting. Thank you so much! Martha

[@educanassa100]

Great story,Allan

[@jldisme]

Very interesting. I agree with your theory.

[@EllenCFarmGirl]

Fantastic, Thank You!❤

[@allanbarton]

Glad you liked it Ellen - hope all is well.

[@EllenCFarmGirl]

@@allanbarton doing well, busy with summer activities!

[@tomhirons7475]

again great content.

[@tarasubramaniam6191]

One of the best books ( of detectioj) is "Daughter of Time" by Josephine Tey... Traces the life of Richard 111 which takes many knocks at Shakes peare's play with Richard Crookback!

[@celiaparker6166]

I think it's generally agreed now that this isn't prince Edward. As far as I know no-one has ever investigated whether he was buried at Middleham as Rous states. Our ancestors were quite unembarrassed about opening royal coffins to have a look, so you would expect someone to have looked in the crypt at some stage. Perhaps the identification of the Sheriff Hutton tomb meant no-one thought it worthwhile. I do wonder whether Middleham, for all its short-lived collegiate status, would have been a sufficiently high status burial place for a prince of Wales. When Arthur Tudor died in 1502 at Ludlow he was not buried in the parish church but taken to the nearest cathedral, Worcester, where his ancestor King John was buried. York Minster would have been an obvious resting-place for Edward but there is no mention in the city records, which you would expect. Durham, also associated with the Nevilles would be a possibility or even one of the great monasteries- Jervaulx is not very far from Middleham.

[@allanbarton]

That is indeed the case regarding this debate - it astonishes me that people ever thought it was, but it is a good back story to introduce Edward's story to a wider audience. It is very curious indeed, I do think he is probably in Middleham, though we will never know for certain. Richard laid the foundation ground works for the collegiate establishment but hadn't got round to constructing a grander setting for it. My suspicion is that had Richard survived Bosworth he would have lavishly rebuilt Middleham church for the college, or made provision for it after his death. Of course history intervened before he could manage it.

[@YorkistRaven]

@@allanbarton The King had many plans for England that were far ahead of his time. His laws prove he was probably the most liberal King of England. He was pious; he had a chantry of 100 priests planned for York Minster. It would have been the largest in Europe. Surely he would have made his son a nice tomb, if he had not been betrayed at Bosworth. Some Ricardians think that the King wanted to be buried in Middleham.

[@Ionabrodie69]

@@YorkistRavenThis Ricardian does.. at the very least he should have been re interred in Yorkshire certainly NOT in Leicester the scene of his defeat by the traitors who betrayed him. 😡🇬🇧

[@YorkistRaven]

I can only think of one positive to Edward of Middleham's grave not being located: no one will dig him up, put his bones in a cardboard box, then do scientific analysis for however many years while his remains sit on a shelf in a university and are not in hallowed ground....which is what they did to his Father.

[@YorkistRaven]

@@Ionabrodie69 to be honest I also wanted him to be buried in York minster. After the Minster refused him, I changed my mind. How ungrateful of them; King Richard donated generously to the Minster during his life. He had parts of it built! Another Ricardian pointed out a couple of good reasons to me for his burial at Leicester Cathedral. First, and most convincing to me: he is near his retinue, some of whom still lie under the soil of Bosworth. Second, his is the only shrine in the Cathedral. Therefore, it is his. If he'd been interred at the Minster, his tomb would be one of many.

[@Sylvia-Storm]

I was wondering why the son of a king would have such a poor quality effigy, but you explained it in your last sentences. I suppose it was paid for by Richard’s followers after his death, so there wouldn’t have been so much money available. Although as you also said it looks too early.

[@Amarixdfro]

Can you make a video of every british monarch and what crown they were crowned with?

[@frippp66]

that was fascinating thank you

[@HighWealder]

The Nevilles continue to be large landowners in Sussex. When will the Norman yoke be lifted?

[@dennisthompson2350]

Most interesting. I was under the impression that he was buried somewhere in York Minister.

[@allanbarton]

The only evidence we have is from Rous, there is a prince buried in York, William of Hatfield the infant son of Edward III who has a very fine effigy in the north choir aisle of the Minster.

[@YorkistRaven]

@@allanbarton William of Hatfield, a brother to The Black Prince, John of Gaunt, Edmund of Langley etc. Poor little fellow.

[@dennisthompson2350]

@@allanbarton Thank you for the information

[@KellyfromMemphisDD214]

I wonder if they knew back then how low quality of the alabaster would deteriorate after so many years…that’s probably not something worthy of a prince.

[@carolburns8667]

Excellent 👏🏻🙏🏻🇨🇦

[@stephenburns3678]

Thank you

[@truefairytale164]

Can you please make a video on the Scottish coronation procession???? I've heard it's on 5 July.... ❤❤❤

[@ludovica8221]

I didnt even know such a thing was occurring.. wow!

[@redredwine1277]

I have book collections of the royal/monarchy’s. I enjoyed watching, very entertaining. THANK YOU 🌷 👌🏽

[@mn4169]

interesting, thank you

[@allanbarton]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@Anubis81]

So jealous of these beautiful village gothic churches. On the continent where I live most of our churches are baroque and the few gothic or romanesque were deemed barbaric and baroquized. These english churches look basically the same as they did when built. Nothing against baroque architecture but sometimes it can be a bit too much.

[@ludovica8221]

Alas many English churches have been heavily Victorianized (Neo Gothic) which is good in some places and disastrous in others

[@1258-Eckhart]

The baroque was the architectural expression of the counter-reformation which needed to re-evangelise mainly Germany. In England, it was officially banned (because "papist"). Thus, English cathedrals retain their gothic splendour (the notable exception being St. Paul's).

[@jldrake3424]

Another like and comment from me. I have 3 accounts so I give you three likes and comments. Your content is great, and you deserve more subscribers.

[@allanbarton]

Wow, thanks very much! Glad you're enjoying my channel 😊

[@leoroverman4541]

This is a clue as to why I don't believe in the murder of the Princes in the tower was down to Richard. Henry Tyder had far more grounds to dispose of them. Question? If Richard was instrumental in the rehabilitation of Clarence, his Brother- why would he dispose of his child?

[@annlindsaywright3169]

I agree with you. The tomb is not intricate enough and I feel it would not have been made of alabaster.

[@lilitharam44]

Does the child's head, on the monument, resting on a dog mean anything? Is it an indicator of one of the families over another. Either way, it's incredibly sweet and sad. A little boy and his dog.

[@Oldsmobile69]

It's so neat that someitmes the answer is "no".

[@RP-mm9ie]

Thanks

[@jeaninnesnyder7446]

A real simple way to tell if that was Edward would be to look for the York rose

[@bevinboulder5039]

You convinced me. 😉

[@angierucinski5694]

Surely the King of England would have had his son's tomb effigy carved from something more prestigious than local alabaster, especially so low grade?

[@allanbarton]

Indeed.

[@connoroleary591]

Perhaps it was as well for the child to die, rather than be murdered by Henry Tudor.

[@johnbeal1405]

I am sure that you are right Allan. Sadly this is not Edward's tomb.

[@vanillasuncherries]

John Neville 👍🏻

[@theoldar]

I lived in California for several years. There, anything built before 1910 is considered historically old.

[@ludovica8221]

LOL..... There are cars older than that

[@kaloarepo288]

Finally found out how to pronounce Middleham" correctly - I thought it was "middle ham". You never know with English pronunciations! I also found out recently that "Beauchamp" was pronounced "beacham."!!!

[@stefanwild326]

[@susanheath5467]

I thought kids stayed with mum till they were 7?

[@h.calvert3165]

Potentially a much better burial for his son, than that which he allowed for his elder brother's sons. 😠

[@paperroses7615]

Is there remains inside? DNA test please instead of ASSUMING who's inside?

[@allanbarton]

No nothing inside, people in this period were generally buried in vaults beneath monuments not in the monument itself and this one has been moved around a lot. We don't actually know it's original location.

[@emmafre-haack1746]

Thanks, very well done. But, sorry, just my Opinion…who needs a King?