Amazon says 'There's No Such Thing as Canon in Tolkien' | My Response

Reacting to the recent claims made by Amazon Studios in defense of their biggest lore breaking elements via an official promotional video after the release of the finale of the Rings of Power season 2 where it is clearly stated that "there's really no such thing as canon in Tolkien". I couldn't disagree more. Here are my thoughts.
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[@NerdCookies]

Thanks for watching! If you enjoyed the video be sure to leave a LIKE!

[@troffle]

fortheloveofgod please stop calling it "The Lord Of The Rings: The Rings Of Power" PLEASE.

[@Tar-Elenion]

Yes. What Tolkien wrote is canon. What Tolkien did not write is not canon.

[@thomasmuandersontheneousul4184]

@@troffle Also please stop putting out incredibly dishonest slanderous videos It was COREY who said no canon NOT Amazon this whole video is a lie and a complete mess

[@AmongRevenants]

Some franchises don't take canon too serious... Han didn't die in Tokyo. Wait, what? Some are bound to canon, like chains to a wall... Witches are not allowed to sing in a galaxy far far away. And others. Canon is an albatross around their neck... Iron man is now Dr Doom, and, Witches are allowed to sing in Westview, New Jersey!

[@troffle]

@@AmongRevenants canon is a foundation, not a chain. If you can't see that, you are lost.

[@SteveWFitch]

Corey Olsen, the so called "Tolkien Professor", traded his reputation for media access.

[@richardkersey4960]

I have never heard of this guy. I am 58, and I have been reading Tolkien since 11-12 and researched experts and any writings about his works. I've never even seen this guy.

[@grahamcox8054]

Total sellout, the guy’s insanely knowledgeable and versed in the legendarium. But he’s dead to me

[@dlxmarks]

I downloaded one episode of his podcast which turned out to be an agonizingly detailed reading of his spec script for _The Silmarillion_ including stage directions which I did not finish listening to. Then I found out he's the "Tolkien Professor" at Signum University, an online learning institute of which he is the founder and president. After that I lost interest in Corey Olsen.

[@AdastraRecordings]

I tried having a drink every time you said canon, now I'm pished.

[@lukesayers5850]

I don't say the c word. Since that judge let trump slide on his case. 😂

[@TillionTirrion]

Ultimately they (Amazon) may do as they see fit, and as an individual having read the books several times prior to any films, I can stop viewing what I consider to be an abomination altogether. I watched every episode of the first season solely due to the name of the show. Now that I am sure it bears no resemblance to what I love about the good professor’s work I no longer bother to view it.

[@theemissary1313]

Same here. After that first series, just no way to redeem it.

[@johnfolk1448]

After what Amazon did to The Wheel of Time, I didn't even watch one episode of RoP. I knew where it was going. Gratz on making it through a whole season. That must have been painful.

[@kineticstar]

I was there when the strength of Amazon's view of canon failed. Me: JEFF BEZOS! THROW IT INTO THE FIRE! WE MUST DESTROY IT! Bezos: No! Here's a prime day special commercial for nothing on your wish list!

[@misterangel8486]

Next Amazon will explain that there is no universe, just Amazon.🫠

[@KevinWebb]

Bezos is pretty sure it's all his sandbox.

[@HisameArtwork]

@@KevinWebb delulu is strong in these ppl. if musk was ever sane he's clearly off the rails now.

[@Face2East]

For an organization that started out selling and promoting the virtues of books, it would appear that no exec at Amazon has ever read any. 🤷‍♀

[@HeeBeeGeeBee392]

Amazon's attempts at gaslighting have become ridiculous.

[@beauhancock4922]

Why did Tolkien write the appendix to TLORs? Saying canon doesn't matter, which is what that idiot (whoever hired him as a Tolkien professor should lose their pension) just did, Is like saying directly that all anyone involved cares about is money. Canon is an enemy to what the industry calls "the edge." If we know the canon, we know what to expect and that will cause gaps in watching, particularly binge and obsessive watching. Put simply, they used one of the best pieces of fantasy literature to prove people will pay for garbage, even if to tear it apart. What's infuriating is that they should have had several professors, especially ones that would challenge that moron. If canon doesn't matter, then all you have is a setting and some events. To call that a story is mental gymnastics that are found being performed by only the most evil of creatures. The types who would ban books and who the hell knows, they're probably gonna start burning them because we've got digital versions now oooooo... Does no one remember when amazon tried to remove the term "oligarchical collectivism" from F*&King "1984" by ORWELL! Yeah, that did happen, it was a thing. Hope there is still proof. To me, It's not only wasteful but dangerous as well for corporations to pull this BS. Both things, but the 1984 thing literally makes me sick with anger. Sorry if I went overboard, I learned to read with Tolkien. Up until the 7th grade I could only read at the 3rd grade level. I read The Lord of The Rings in 2 semesters and at the end of the year my reading teacher placed my assessment at "post-college" level reading. So yeah, I've been a bit butthurt about it since they started deviating to, let's be honest here, facilitate the most action scenes (like a Michael Bay movie) and delete the dialogue that the story is built upon. What a colossal waste...

[@LaineyBug2020]

It still floors me when studios look at something that has a passionate fanbase and think the best way to make the most money would be to make that thing but change it in the most stupid ways until it's basically something different. Like, just make the something different. You don't need to con an existing fan base because that never works. You just piss people off.

[@megatronjenkins2473]

Gorram right. It's like Amazon spent a billion dollars on a beloved ip, just to turn it into a Middle-Earth-themed toilet.

[@HisameArtwork]

that a corp would be greedy and soulless I'm not surprised anymore, but that ppl would consume this and enjoy it and defend it is still shocking to me. at least Disney warped products to be more "palatable and accessible". They turned Pocahontas' terrible story into a light hearted romance with some colonial drama in the back. With amazon they're turning something nice and good into something horrible...for who? The ROP fans are so weird.

[@megatronjenkins2473]

@@HisameArtwork there are fans? I call bullshtako unless you give me proof!!!

[@Tar-Elenion]

Olsen in that same video: _"That same passage where he talks about his many names he says "To the East, I go not."_ _When we look at that quote in context, he's talking to a dude from Gondor, and the people of Gondor. the call Mordor "the East"._ _He meant: "Don't expect me to go throw down with, you know, the Dark Lord at the gates of Barad-dur.""_ In "That same passage" the "dude" is Faramir. And it is Faramir relating to Frodo and Sam what Gandalf has said to him: "‘Mithrandir we called him in elf-fashion,’ said Faramir, ‘and he was content. Many are my names in many countries, he said. Mithrandir among the Elves, Tharkûn to the Dwarves; Olórin I was in my youth in the West that is forgotten, in the South Incánus, in the North Gandalf; to the East I go not.’" LotR, Window on the West The self-declared "Tolkien Professor" claims that it means that Gandalf will not go to Mordor to personally fight Sauron. The self-declared "Tolkien Professor" is saying this in defense of A-RoP having *Gandalf in *Rhun. But lets see what another professor has to say about this. That professor being one Professor Tolkien: "The date of Gandalf’s arrival is uncertain. He came from beyond the Sea, apparently at about the same time as the first signs were noted of the re-arising of ‘the Shadow’: the reappearance and spread of evil things. But he is seldom mentioned in any annals or records during the second millennium of the Third Age. Probably he wandered long (in various guises), engaged not in deeds and events but in exploring the hearts of Elves and Men who had been and might still be expected to be opposed to Sauron. His own statement (or a version of it, and in any case not fully understood) is preserved that his name in youth was Olórin in the West, but he was called Mithrandir by the Elves (Grey Wanderer), Tharkûn by the Dwarves (said to mean ‘Staff-man’), Incánus in the South, and Gandalf in the North, but ‘to the East I go not’. ‘The West’ here plainly means the Far West beyond the Sea, not part of Middle-earth; the name Olórin is of High-Elven form. ‘The North’ must refer to the North-western regions of Middle-earth, in which most of the inhabitants or speaking-peoples were and remained uncorrupted by Morgoth or Sauron. In those regions resistance would be strongest to the evils left behind by the Enemy, or to Sauron his servant, if he should reappear. The bounds of this region were naturally vague; its eastern frontier was roughly the River Carnen to its junction with Celduin (the River Running), and so to Núrnen, and thence south to the ancient confines of South Gondor. (It did not originally exclude Mordor, which was occupied by Sauron, although outside his original realms ‘in the East’, as a deliberate threat to the West and the Númenóreans.) ‘The North’ thus includes all this great area: roughly West to East from the Gulf of Lune to Núrnen, and North and South from Carn Dûm to the southern bounds of ancient Gondor between it and Near Harad. Beyond Núrnen Gandalf had never gone." Unfinished Tales, The Istari, a pre- 2nd edition of Lord of the Rings note "It is very unclear what was meant by ‘in the South’. Gandalf disclaimed ever visiting ‘the East’, but actually he appears to have confined his journeys and guardianship to the western lands, inhabited by Elves and peoples in general hostile to Sauron. At any rate it seems unlikely that he ever journeyed or stayed long enough in the Harad (or Far Harad!) to have there acquired a special name in any of the alien languages of those little known regions. The South should thus mean Gondor (at its widest those lands under the suzerainty of Gondor at the height of its power). At the time of this Tale, however, we find Gandalf always called Mithrandir in Gondor (by men of rank or Númenórean origin, as Denethor, Faramir, etc.). This is Sindarin, and given as the name used by the Elves; but men of rank in Gondor knew and used this language. The ‘popular’ name in the Westron or Common Speech was evidently one meaning ‘Greymantle’, but having been devised long before was now in an archaic form. This is maybe represented by the Greyhame used by Éomer in Rohan." Unfinished Tales, The Istari, 1967 note Professor Tolkien, contra Corey Olsen, writes that the meaning of "to the East I go not" is literal. Gandalf did not go in to Rhun. Why does this self-declared "Tolkien Professor" continue, repeatedly, to make false claims about what Tolkien said, wrote, meant or intended... *'Do you want to be true to what you think Tolkien was imagining...OR, do you want to be true to what Tolkien said about the world'*

[@Rabbithole8]

Really well done. I was going to post something similar but not as detailed and well thought out as you. The thing is his sham works only only on people who don't know much about Tolkien's works nor his own words regarding his work. He must know this and doesn't care because he thinks he profited from throwing away his integrity. So, he totally discredited himself. To quote from A Man for All Season, " [For Amazon? Corey] it profit a man nothing to give his soul for the whole world ... but for [Amazon]?!

[@Tar-Elenion]

@@Rabbithole8 I find him less than credible in a lot of what he says, but his acolytes defend him. I've quoted what Tolkien says in response to what he claims Tolkien says. and have been told by his 'students' that it is "irrelevant trivia", because Olsen is doing 'deep analysis'. I'm not quite sure how making false statements about what Tolkien wrote supports an accurate 'analysis'...

[@Rabbithole8]

@@Tar-Elenion That is a great point. That is, the other factors are ideologues and/or sycophants who simply accept his arguments on face value. What you describe are people who think that an appeal to authority is valid. They don't provide specific reasons or evidence to counter your claims and evidence. Simply saying that Corey is doing a "deep analysis" does not actually engage with the argument. The vague notion of "deep analysis" does not directly address the core issue. It's a way of diverting attention; therefore, it is a red herring. It is also the bare assertion fallacy since it is presented as true without backing it up. Tolkien as you know didn't think highly of the newly growing field of Literary Criticism since it relied on interpretation rather than rigorous evidence and argumentation. It also collected ideological positions as it moved along to the present day such as Feminist Criticism, Marxist Criticism, and Queer Theory. All of which are imposed upon Tolkien. Linguistic, however, remains an empirical discipline. In other words, Corey feels justified, I'm sure, to make all sorts of claims and label them "deep analysis," but they are baseless. What his acolytes don't get is that analysis requires justification. However, they clearly aren't interested in facts and evidence.

[@Tar-Elenion]

@@Rabbithole8 On another channel where I posted this, I have someone (who says he will "stick with Dr. Olsen") insisting that the quotes I provided from Unfinished Tales are not JRRT, but are merely CT's commentary.

[@perceivedvelocity9914]

The corporations that run Hollywood are terrified of trying new things. They will not invest in untested ideas. That's why everything that is created these days is an adaptation, sequel, or reboot. IMO the writers and directors hate this. They refuse to faithfully adapt anything because they want to create new things and their bosses will not let them. The battle between the boardroom and the writers/directors is killing every franchise that we love.

[@Welverin]

These days? It's been like this for decades, and that's just how far back I'm comfortable commenting on. It probably goes back even farther (I've been watching videos going over episodes of the Twilight Zone and a large number of them are adaptations). "They refuse to faithfully adapt anything because they want to create new things and their bosses will not let them." I view it as them being arrogant and full of themselves and think they're better storytellers. So, they change things under the guise of 'this works better for film' and that's not always the case.

[@perceivedvelocity9914]

@@Welverin In the past Hollywood would greenlight a script because a type/genre of movie was popular. For example cowboy movies and shows were the big thing for decades. A writer/director could create new characters and tell a unique story as long as the characters wore a cowboy hat. Hollywood was not creating franchises back then. Just individual films and TV shows in that genre. Things are different now. Only proven properties receive a greenlight and funding. Nothing new is being created, only the same stuff recycled over and over.

[@Fafnd]

Maybe we just shouldn't have franchises. Not every movie, book, or other creative work deserves a sequel or trilogy. At some point, a story MUST end.

[@Korporaal1]

This is basically Amazon saying: "Look at me! I am the captain now!" We know how that ended...

[@sillypuppy5940]

They bought the rights to the appendices of LOTR and then effectively declared them non-canon? In that case they've wasted their money; they might has well have made something up (oh, they did that).

[@samhui9517]

It is never a good thing to alter the core characters created by the original author, nor is it ever a good idea to mess with fans who know more about the lore than these so called “writers”, ever.

[@danthesquirrel]

1) It's a corporation with hard baked in values of creating resentments between everybody as a means of control, and 2) The more money this turkey loses the bigger the tax write off they can get away with. People should buckle up for a future with this thing in it because as a tax write-off cash cow it will get worse and go on for years. By the end it will somehow outdo the opening ceremony of the Olympics in it's offensiveness with no shame. The one thing they can't force you to do is watch. Just like Doctor Who: Quit clicking on the thing and don't let evil people wipe their b*tts on you because they stole the name of something you loved.

[@daruekeller]

I've decided that I am 100% done "consuming" Corporate Content. no more Amazon, no more Disney, if it's not written by A person or two, I will have nothing to do with it. Rings of Power is irrelevant and doesn't even exist as far as I'm concerned. stop boosting Corporate Slop

[@Jared_Wignall]

What Tolkien put down in canon, not whatever Amazon says.

[@stigkenobi7525]

Tolkien himself literally said there is a canon.

[@whynottalklikeapirat]

He was talking about his printer

[@marjoe32]

You don't have reading comprehension then. We have bastardized what the word cannon means, you are thinking of the internet version on canon that has been watered down

[@albinorhino8779]

You heard or read that Tolkien said there's a canon. He never said the universe he created had a defined canon

[@whynottalklikeapirat]

@@marjoe32 Yes - a cannon is a weapon of war. Us pirates are often misunderstood when we threaten people with one these days. Especially on the internet.

[@Kleshumara]

RoP creators are like Morgoth: they cannot create a true living story; all they could do is take a caricature of Tolkien’s characters and places and twist them into something else.

[@MasticinaAkicta]

We all know that Tolkien didn't believe in Canon /s They can gaslight as much as they want, us older fans KNOW they are gaslighting.

[@dyingearth]

To think, Amazon show much more care adopting Lee Child's Jack Reacher novel series than Tolkein's work.

[@mr.puddintater1805]

Big difference. Lee Child is alive to tell FU to Amazon. JRR TOLKIEN would of never gave Amazon the green light to this Abomination

[@whylie74]

Child is still alive and still writing, kinda puts the pressure on to keep Reacher the way Child wants him.

[@Welverin]

@@whylie74 Didn't work for the movies though, did it? I'd bet the difference is who's in charge of the respective shows.

[@nicka731]

Jack Reacher is CIA propaganda and they require final script approval.

[@nicka731]

The CIA gets final script approval on all their propaganda.

[@treydixon5399]

Well said, as usual. You are a great voice for the fans. As JRRT fans, we don't hate Rings of Power because they strayed from his writings. Peter Jackson made sizeable changes to the story in makinghis movies. When PJ dropped Tom Bombadil, the fans shrugged and said "I get it, changed the details but the story is still good.' When PJ added that elf/dwarf love story, people said 'nah, not a hot story.' RoP has knowingly crapped all over JRRT's world building then insulted fans when they complained. THAT is why it's failing.

[@dagdamor1]

If we whitewashed T’challa and Wakanda, I don’t think the usual suspects would consider “there’s no such thing as canon” a valid reason.

[@glensmith491]

Huh? Didn't need to whitewash Wakanda or T'Challa since they were pretty clean to begin with. Whitewashing is simply using cheap methods to make something look new or clean that is actually old and dirty.

[@GingerBeardedGeek86]

Having an actual Tolkien Professor coming out and saying there is no canon, just shows you the depths Amazon are willing to go to. They're genuinely trying to change, not only history, but the actual foundations of one of the greatest works of literature and world building ever seen. They can't get away with this, and all these KZbinrs who claim to be Tolkien fans yet are simping over this show because they get free merchandise and access to cast and crew for interviews need to be ashamed of themselves.

[@MattEdwards1]

Hear hear

[@PaulJohn01]

Corey Olsen "The NOT Tolkien Professor" ! He hasn't earned the title, it's just self bestowed. And after siding with Amazon he will never have any right to such a title.

[@Morgyborgyblob]

No such thing as canon...then why not have Tulkas ride Ancalagon (Reborn as Ancalagon the White) into Mordor, while blasting Barad Dur with sidewinder missiles? Wait, it's not in keeping with Tolkien? It's almost like there's a guide to what is, and is not valid...

[@TheNinjaMarmot]

The saying is true. Takes 1st generartion the pioneer 2nd generation maintain the legacy 3rd generation to squander it.

[@mr.puddintater1805]

Completely true with Tolkien estate.

[@catinore3837]

I’m enjoying the heck out of your ranty videos in which you are slaying it taking these usurpers to task. I’m also happy to see you’re still producing videos on the same subject matter in your more “classic” format. Different cookie flavors, both delicious!

[@DejiDigital]

It doesnt matter. Theyre gonna keep butchering our childhood whether we like it or not. Star Wars, LOTR and marvel/DC comics are gonna keep getting destroyed and the only thing we can do about is just not support it. we need to find other things to watch and support. Thank God i found dune and warhammer lore when i did. I'm not even bothered anymore about all these things i used to love.

[@udontknowhoiambutiknowhereuliv]

Amazon could have easily used the blue wizards instead, and it would actually make sense and probably be a lot more interesting. But all they’ve got as far as creativity is, member Gandalf??? Member Saruman?? Memberrr???

[@elmarkofler1486]

Just from a business standpoint, ignoring canon is a bad idea. A good story will gather an audience and by that creating a canon. In a way, canon could be viewed like a brand. It creates a certain expectation in the audience. Respecting canon will have that audience return. So buying a license is buying the right to use a canon and through that appeal to the audience of the canon. Amazon spend somewhere around 250 Mio USD to buy the right to use the Lotr canon just to the decide to not use it. Not the most business savvy decision, I'd say. And the defense that there is no canon is even worse. If there was no canon, there would be nothing to be bought, as there is no audience connected to the project. It is not the only example of someone acquiring the license for a story and then ignoring /discarding canon. Interestingly, those project tend to fail. Big surprise, I know.

[@thomriley1036]

If Amazon paid me enough, I'd say that as well. However, you're under no obligation to believe a word I say.

[@daruekeller]

there is no Show Runner, only show ruiners. to hell with corporate slop. they can pay as many billions as they want AS FAR as I'm concerned they don't own a fucking thing to do with it. and yes, there are only six Dune books. his kid should have written his own shit instead of trying to ride his daddy's coattail

[@joenolan4917]

Olsons bank account is full of cash but his integrity is bankrupt

[@jsimes1]

I think you are 100% correct. Anything and everything that Tolkien wrote is canon. From first draft in 1914 to one hundredth draft it is all canon because it is all written by Tolkien. Obviously Amazon will say there is no canon because they do not own the rights to any of the stories they are trying to tell in detail. The just want to me able to use the names to appease the casual fans and the fans of the Peter Jackson movies. It is quite telling that most of the call back dialog they use is actually from the movies not from the text of the books. I also think it is strange that people will accept dialog from a film that depicts events that are in the future from the story that is being told.

[@MattEdwards1]

The statement "there's no such thing as canon" is I imagine another volley in the attempted destruction of these wonderful, priceless literary artifacts.

[@JimTempleman]

HBO just believes in "Loose Canon."

[@stitch3163]

I agree, Elaine. Thank you for this video.

[@willard39]

Couldn't agree more. Without canon, there's no LOTR, which this is supposedly based on. ROP isn't Tolkien at all, it's original, albeit very bad, fantasy/action that takes place in a Tolkienesque setting. It dedteoys canon (poor Finrod got done dirty, among others). Anyone who says there's not such thing as canon is just selling you on their money grab. What's ironic is that Amazon could have done a "Tales from Middle Earth" selecting a few good stories in the appendices (though buying the Silmarillion would have been a better option). Beren and Luthien, Fall of Gondolin, Children of Hurin (though not in the Silmarillion), would have been much better choices.

[@ImagineMySurprise510]

to me there are two principle problems with amazon's rings of power: 1 They departed hugely from hard and soft canon, ignored most of what Tolkien wrote and merely took some names, place names and an occasional story element and twisted it into their marxist feminist agenda. 2 Even if this was a series that had nothing to do with Tolkien's writings, what amazon has made is simply bad story telling. If the same story had all new names, was set in America in 1800, it would still be a bad story full of inconsistencies, plot holes, agenda, and dreary characters. amazon and salke get not respect because they don't deserve any.

[@jimwatson2755]

Evidently they have never read the published letters of the professor, his answer to Canon is right there. Again, read the book.. Something again they have repeatedly failed to do

[@RB-sz9gv]

Gandalf entered Middle Earth AS AN OLD MAN. The creators of Amazon’s Rings of Garbage are idiots and whoever hired them should be fired immediately. This garbage pile of excrement will be deleted from history as nobody will ever rewatch this shit and there’s no merch that anyone would ever buy.

[@Banzai431]

I think I would have been far less polite in my choice of words to describe what they have done. I do understand though. One must keep things professional.

[@andrewvenor8035]

If he was still alive, I can imagine Christopher Tolkien's response to that.

[@Age_of_Apocalypse]

Nerd Cookies: 👍👍👏 It's simple, Hollywood respect the canon or I'm OUT and this is exactly what happened with Amazon's Rings of Power: I didn't watch a single episode! I have read the "masterpiece" novel and don't want to see it ruined by the incompetence of people who have no place in Hollywood. 😖

[@etantife]

‘There’s no such thing as canon’ is a dangerous line of reasoning. It reminds me of that time Sean Astin and others insisted that Frodo and Sam kissed at some point and were gay. The basis of the argument was that Tolkien didn’t say that DDIDNT kiss, so it’s perfectly acceptable to think so. These are deranged and dishonest arguments that or motivated by present day politics and have no basis in truth or reality.

[@thephantomstranger4073]

That Olórin, as was possible for one of the Maiar, had already visited Middle-earth and had become acquainted not only with the Sindarin Elves and others deeper in Middle-earth, but also with Men, is likely, but nothing has yet been said of this. In Unfinished Tales, there's this that points out Tolkien kinda forgot he had suggested Olorin visited Middle-earth in the Second Age: "...Olórin (who was known in Middle-earth as Mithrandir) brought it with him out of the West. And on a time Olórin came to Galadriel, who dwelt now under the trees of Greenwood the Great..... And when Olórin had told her many tidings she sighed, and said: ‘I grieve in Middle-earth, for leaves fall and flowers fade; and my heart yearns, remembering trees and grass that do not die. I would have these in my home.’ Then Olórin said: ‘Would you then have the Elessar?’ ....And he held before her the Elessar, and she looked on it and wondered. And Olórin said: ‘This I bring to you from Yavanna. Use it as you may, and for a while you shall make the land of your dwelling the fairest place in Middle-earth....' "

[@Caleb-zu1pk]

We live in a society

[@tylerskiss]

Obviously the “Tolkien Professor” needs his name revoked because he is demonstrably wrong. It’s not the first time either. But even if you allow this fraud to spin that crap, the showrunners claimed multiple times that they were going to adhere to lore in Season 2 and… they didn’t. In fact, I don’t think I can count on a single hand how many broad lore details they followed and every second minute I could find a lore breaking detail in every episode.

[@Ptaaruonn]

No such thing as Canon huh. Well There is also no such thing as your show. I don't even dare to say it's name or i'll belch.

[@danielcopeland2758]

I call balderdash...

[@megatronjenkins2473]

I prefer the word 'poppycock'🤣🤣🤣

[@jokermtb]

Fundamentalism is cannon. Heresey is where it's at. I like that Morgoth had a hand in creating the Rings of Power!

[@PeloquinDavid]

Good observations - though I'd be inclined to rephrase the first few words as "Canon is the plaything of fundamentalists"...

[@Evoker23-lx8mb]

Tolkien canon is what Tolkien wrote. If he wrote it in one of his books, it’s canon. This “Tolkien professor” saying that there’s no such thing as Tolkien canon is quite clearly a Tolkien professor in name only.

[@briantrafford4871]

There is a difference between using creative license in adapting a story to a medium like television, and simply trashing the IP. Neither Disney nor Amazon have understood this basic principle, and as a result they have actually damaged their ability to market their creations to a ready made audience.

[@stevenmcmullan409]

The thing that I find ironically hilarious is that every single video that I've watched about this supposed Tolkien canon controversy, is that everybody has a different idea of what the canon should be. 😂

[@jer103]

Amazon was like: "Hold my beer...I'm going to shoot a canon at the Canon of Lord of the Rings"(They really "jumped the shark" with this last season.)

[@Too-Odd]

Disney uncanonized the Star Wars Extended Universe, and then they violated the hard canon of the original films. They broke Star Wars.

[@nunyabizz8730]

This is how I see it. Rings if Power is not Lord of the Rings. It is simply a terrible fantasy show that was inspired by Tolkien. Back in the 1980's during my teenage years, we created better stories for our AD&D campaigns

[@clearyt]

Rings of Power is NOT Tolkien. It is an abomination! It will never be accepted OR remembered!

[@andrewmalinowski6673]

Until mentioning the discrepancy between the five Astari and Blue Wizards I was immediately thinking "Gandalf's older than he looks" and going from a video from either In Deep Geek or Men of the West stating Gandalf and the other Astari (including Saruman) were "liminted" in their powers as they were meant to challenge Sauron without directly manipulating events. Describing the series "Rings of Power" as being; "based on/inspired by the works of Tolkein" it immediately sounded like what the producers/writers were making "fan fiction" not a serious adaptation, which makes the idea of the series as less equivalent to the CW's Arrowverse and more a fan-written concept of "Lord of the Rings"

[@Welverin]

They don't actually have the rights to adapt anything outside of the standard The Hobbit and tLotR, and there's not much on the second age there for an actual adaptation. So, "based on/inspired by the works of Tolkein" is all they can honestly do. THe fact they disregard what they do have access to, is another matter.

[@fingolfin7295]

As you've put it perfectly, the Rings of Power show isn't even an attempt of an adaptation, but a hijack of an well known and stablished IP so they can profit off from it's name. They however don't have the necessary love or capability to actually present something in good spirit with Tolkien's works.

[@baldmanevil]

The show writers have never read the books, and certainly never read or understood The Silmarillion. They may have watched the Peter Jackson movies while scratching their heads and writing notes down, read Wikipedia for a few minutes between watching episodes of He Man, and said "I can do this!" 🤪

[@Richard-x2p]

The Truth is Whatever They Say It Is.Going Forward.

[@michaelfisher7170]

I wont even bother with Rings of Power. fanfic garbage written poorly by jagoffs who don't know the lore. Pure garbage.

[@tuorofgondolin8235]

Saying "There's not such thing as canon" is like saying "There's no such thing as Amazon."

[@kentsetsma]

This show has been such a disappointment. I’ll keep watching but I’ll never go back and rewatch the episodes the way I’ve rewatched the Peter Jackson movies at least 100 times.

[@francisjudge]

Great response! Thanks for sharing

[@hendrsb33]

Read the title and knew instantly this was gonna blow up.

[@richardkersey4960]

Interesting, I don't recall this gentleman being among the list of experts on Tolkien in any documentaries or the extended versions of the movies.

[@garythesweep]

The professor approached his world from a scholary pov , so anything him and Christopher put down in print is always going to be considered Canon by fans of the books

[@darthcalanil5333]

The Tolkien Professor is as much of a credible authority as indigenous lesbian dance theory graduates

[@RJ420NL]

Aye, as an aspiring author I agree 100%.

[@ak3hiker]

Excellent video and think you're exactly right.

[@Nodux359]

Mighty words if one only holds the rights for the appendices.

[@vng]

The problem is that these companies are trying to treat LotR and SW as something like the Marvel and DC comic universe. Unfortunately, LotR and SW are very different in essence.

[@Smashtacular01]

I love how they know better than the author. How much did they lose on this again? Exactly.

[@bluesirius1]

my response: there's no such thing as amazon's middle earth

[@drgordo112]

Wishing it doesn’t make it so!

[@agesflow6815]

Thank you, Nerd Cookies.

[@andrewlim9345]

Many Hollywood studios are willing to take artistic liberties with canon in many franchises for storytelling and money-makingg purposes. That ends up alienating fans.

[@HerveMendell]

Well I think the market will decide. That is to say the public will decide.

[@kirtmanwaring3629]

Thing is Tolkien contradicts himself more than most authors since we have so many of his notes. I actually agree with the Tolkien professor's literal point if not how Amazon used it. Like the two trees were a central part of the Silmarillion except they maybe didn't exist at all. Orcs were tortured elves then tortured men than spawn of the earth then soulless animals. Angband was on Beleriand then maybe the moon ... Gandalf did indeed come to Middle Earth much earlier in a random draft story Tolkien jotted down, of course in a totally different time than Rings of Power. Anyways, fanfic's gonna fanfic but Tolkien's world is a lot more contradictory than most people realize, it's part of the appeal if you want to deep dive.

[@biff647019]

Of course they're going to claim there's no canon, because it benefits them--not us. I guess if you just say it, it's true and we should all just shut up and mindlessly watch their trash and pay them for it. Hey, I just went to the bathroom, I excrete gold. Buy it because that us how we get gold...

[@pgs1796]

Well said and argued.

[@chasx7062]

it's so funny to hear people say that Tolkien hated Allegory which he did, and that Tolkien wanted his legendarium to represent English mythology which he did, as NOT White Supremacy, which it definitely is... The Ring clearly represents Power: Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely.... Tolkien was changing his mind later in Life as he "Woke" up to new ideas heh

[@theoneonly259]

To say that absolute power corrupts is neoliberal propaganda. Rome had to call on many dictators during times of emergency for the republic and there was rarely a problem. Cincinnatus is probably the best example from ancient Rome that absolute power does not corrupt. The people saying this nonsense are the ones in control. They fear a Dictator coming in and taking their power/wealth away from them. The rings from Lord of the Rings do not represent white power you clown.

[@psychonaut5921]

Yeah, how convenient, huh?

[@Serai3]

LOL, what do you expect from writers of a crappy fanfic?

[@davidmcbryde3570]

Why they failed in one sentence.

[@sauron153]

This has been a problem with the industry for a while now. There are plenty of works out there that, if they were made as their own thing, they'd be a fine enough work, but the studio is determined to tag a recognized IP to the project in the hope of better selling it, all without considering that you now have to take into account all the canon and rules of the IP you got. Taking Dune as an example, the version Lynch did changed the Weirding Way to sonic guns because he "didn't want kung fu in the desert", but didn't account for the fact that you change the intent of the work from being a political story to an almost justifiable response to a faction developing superior weapons to wipe you out.

[@Dickie72002]

They need a heart button, not just a paltry like button for this video!

[@andrewmccall837]

Amazon you done fuck up now !

[@edumm200]

to me saying 'there is no such thing as canon' is like saying 'laws are an illusion' or 'private property really doesn't exist', technically true in a philosophical sense, but it blurs the role these concepts play in shaping our understanding of the world. these new age showrunners really have a talent to reduce art to something transient, superficial, soulless, and mundane...

[@nurlindafsihotang49]

Star wars and startrek fans : " welcome to the dissampoinment club"

[@Xedgehog1]

I'm 53 years old, which makes me gen x, and a child of the seventies. I've always been a science fiction fan, starting with Star Trek and pivoting into star wars. In the '80s came along Doctor Who on PBS channels. It was also in the '80s that I started going to conventions. My idea of what Canon is stems from trivia contests. Usually these trivia contests for Star Trek and Star Wars trivia had to include things that you could see on screen. Sometimes you get questions from the audience that people couldn't answer because not everybody had read those books. That made on-screen sources of Star Trek and Star Wars Canon or official, but not the books novels or comics. The simple idea was that not everybody had read those books or seen those comics. Everybody had seen the movies or TV shows, or you really didn't belong in that contests. It was exactly the opposite for the Lord of the rings, dune and other book series that have been around for years. The adaptations didn't really count because sometimes they were different or a little off. A lot of other fans felt the same as I did.

[@vesawuoristo4162]

Yes indeed

[@godsbadkarma]

Tolkien is the ONLY one who had the right to change his vision because it WAS HIS, NOT THEIRS. Screw this abomination.

[@NickNobody161]

apart from LOTR and Hobbit, there are many versions of the stories Tolkien crated. He wasn´t shure himself about a lot of things he wrote. That is why he never published the Silmarillion for example. What his son published are versions/variants and they contradict each other. So no there is no canon beyond LOTR and Hobbit. BUT there is a general "spirit" of his world and writings and Amazon did not match this spirit in a lot of "their version"

[@tomdonahue8227]

You should do a debate with Jess of the Shire. She kinda believes Tolkien changed Canon with Galadriel.

[@jyyyb]

Evil can’t create only destroy