An Anglican Catholic addresses some Roman Catholics

[@tommerkel1940]

As a Catholic priest I am thankful for what you said here

[@Warwickensis]

Thank you, Father! Please be assured of my prayers and continued goodwill for you and your cure.

[@rowanlady]

Both RC and AC say the Nicean Creed which states we believe in the holy, catholic and apostolic church. Surely this indicates a closeness of traditions. God Bless Us 😊

[@Bryan-Paul]

Yes indeed, it even says "We believe in ONE holy, catholic and apostolic Church"

[@anthonylangford7797]

Roman Catholic here, though i prefer to use the word 'Catholic' as there are many churches in communuon with Rome such as Maronite, Byzantine and Coptic etc. The novus ordo i struggle with and its difficult in many areas to find a traditional Latin Mass location. Its been a blessing to have the ordinariate in the church and the beauty of the traditional English liturgy. Interesting to hear the connection of the Sarum rite innthe book of common prayer. I certainly feel very traditional in my taste of liturgy and very English. I certainly hope to attend the Mass in the Anglican Catholic church. We are all Catholic!

[@andrewm9221]

Eastern Orthodox here. I like what you say. Thank you. Praise be Jesus Christ the risen Savior 🙏

[@Warwickensis]

Amen! And thank you!

[@djpodesta]

If only we could all share this same attitude. Analogies were spot on!

[@Ogdensnutgoneflake78]

Fellow Anglican Catholic in the C of E here. Just subscribed 👌

[@Warwickensis]

Good to hear from you!

[@Ogdensnutgoneflake78]

@@Warwickensis keep up the great work!!

[@theredneckcatholic1417]

I am a Roman Catholic. While I get what you're saying in that Anglican Catholics have a lot in common with Roman Catholics, and I do appreciate y'all's liturgy, faith in Christ, continuation of many Catholic practices, etc. I do have one question. Because there is a group of Anglican Catholics who are in communion with Rome (I'm sure as an Anglican Catholic you have at least some familiarity with them - these groups are known as Anglican Ordinariates.), and so I've long taken issue with Anglican Catholics who use the term "Catholic" because it gets kind of confusing - there are Anglican Catholics in communion with Rome and there are Anglican Catholics not in communion with Rome, which means there's a huge difference between people who use the same name. That's just my question. I guess it's not that big of a deal, because if someone says "I'm an Anglican Catholic," you could always just ask whether the person is in communion with Rome or not, and then you will know that person's exact faith. I also get why you would rather call yourselves "Anglican Catholic" than, say, "Anglican Orthodox," even though you agree with them on the papacy, because they will probably be even angrier than Catholics about you using part of their name. Ah, well. God bless.

[@Warwickensis]

If it's of any interest to you, our official response to those entering the Ordinariate is here: www.anglicancatholic.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/Response-to-Fomer-Anglicans.pdf

[@theredneckcatholic1417]

@@Warwickensis Thank you, I found that document very interesting. I also think it makes perfect sense from the Anglican perspective, because it is no secret that the Ordinariate is for Anglicans who believe in Roman Catholicism, the Papacy, etc., just as the Eastern Catholic churches are the same thing except for Eastern & Oriental Orthodox Christians. I completely understand why an Anglican who does not believe in, for instance, Papal Infallibility, would not want to join an Anglican Ordinariate. One thing in particular I'd like to ask you about in that document is the part where the Anglican Catholic Church calls the papacy "a patriarch with the primacy of honor and with high authority both as an organ for strengthening the Church’s unity and also as an instrument for the articulation of the Church’s teaching." This doesn't sound all that far off from the Roman Catholic view of the Pope... What in particular to Anglican Catholics object to in the Roman Catholic view of the papacy?

[@Warwickensis]

@@theredneckcatholic1417 in Anglican Catholic thought, there is a difference between Papal Primacy and Papal Supremacy. We can get behind the idea of the Patriarch of the West, had Benedict XVI not suppressed that but, like the Orthodox we see the bishop as having jurisdiction only in the Diocese to which he has the cure. Like the Orthodox we also cannot accept Papal Infallibility but see the Oecumenical Council as superior in authority to any bishop. However, we are willing to see the Pope as Primus inter pares, much in the same way that the Anglicans see the Archbishop of Canterbury, and even as possessing the ancient authority as an appellate.

[@theredneckcatholic1417]

@@Warwickensis Okay, I see. Like a "first among equals" sort of thing.

[@Warwickensis]

@@theredneckcatholic1417 exactly so. As I said in my video, I had a lot of time for Pope Benedict. I used his work in moral theology in my own doctoral work.

[@TheAmericanPilgrim]

Wonderful video Father. I'm an Anglo Catholic in The Episcopal Church and the anti Catholic sentiment can be quite annoying at times. It does make me think that in some ways, the Church hasn't moved past the Oxford Movement(especially among the more hardcore elements of the Evangelical crowd)

[@TheAmericanPilgrim]

@@crossvilleengineering1238 A few in my Diocese are orthodox so yes

[@TheAmericanPilgrim]

@@crossvilleengineering1238 It is hard sometimes but I've nonetheless found home. I really couldn't imagine myself anywhere else, even after trying the ACNA out for a few months

[@alicepavey974]

Sorry if my fellow Catholics have been rude; it happens far too much, mostly when we are arguing amongst ourselves. However, please be aware that the name 'Roman Catholic' was invented, or at any rate normalised, by non-Catholic Christians after the Reformation, so if you go to Italy or France, either the name doesn't exist (the Church is just the Chiesa cattolica or Eglise catholique, for instance); or if it does exist, it is a recent invention, copying the English (and perhaps German?) speaking world. I always refer to myself as a 'Catholic', following ancient tradition. Within Catholicism, there are a number of churches in communion with Rome, and I am in the western, Latin, tradition, as opposed, for instance, to the Syro-Malabar tradition.

[@Warwickensis]

Thank you for being so cordial. It is often said that when two or three Christians are gathered together there are four or five disagreements! You've seen that in your Church and so have I in mine. I do take your point though. It goes without saying that those who are in communion with the Holy Father are Catholics. And I'm sure you appreciate the reason why the term "Roman Catholic" was invented, especially by Lutherans and Anglicans, in order to demonstrate that Catholicism is, in our way of thinking, bigger than the jurisdiction of the Pope. The trouble is that, with all the disagreements and squabbling, we forget that it was once said of Christians, "look at how these Christians love one another." Yes, you are a Catholic and I am very happy that you are. May God bless you and Holy Mary and all the Saints pray for you.

[@PadiZH]

Well said Fr. Jonathan! When I compare Anglican Catholicism with Roman Catholicism I must say that Anglican Catholicism does a better job. Attending a Novus Ordo liturgy reminds me rather of Protestantism these days where as Anglican Catholicism has kept the tradition and the beautiful liturgy. What's more, Anglican Catholics take the church fathers more seriously and don't fall into that post Vatican II nonsense. Moreover, can one take a pope seriously who seems to be completely against everything which has to do with tradition? I really have my doubts... I could say more about it now and could even write a book. But I don't want to be too polemical. In my heart I am an Anglican Catholic and I hope such people who are trying to blame Anglican Catholicism for not being Catholic enough would grow deeper into theology!

[@MatthewThirteenFourtyFour]

A very thoughtful and Christ like rebuttal of what sound like unfair comments. For me, to paraphrase our Lord, we are called to Love the Lord our god above all then our neighbours. As our brothers and sisters in Christ, are you very close neighbours indeed and we should (and do) love you as Christ taught us to. Sure we disagree on things, I’d love to have a pint and a chat over such things with you but who am I to judge, that is saved for the Lord and only him. For me, The Lord works in mysterious ways and His will be done above all, I trust all things to the Him. God bless you father, I’ll remember you in my prayers (from a Roman Catholic brother in Christ)

[@Warwickensis]

Thank you. God bless you!

[@LeutherGreengager-ip1uw]

For all it's Romanist euphoria, Roman Catholicism is a world apart from the phronema of the Ecclesia Anglicana. Thank you, Father Munn for the imparted clarity.

[@Warwickensis]

Sorry, I missed it. What was the actual insult? A bit more explanation of your complaint would help.

[@LeutherGreengager-ip1uw]

​@@Warwickensisno insults Father Munn, only phronemas as per video mention.

[@Warwickensis]

I see the accusation of insult against you by another has been removed. That's good, because I wasn't at all sure that you had insulted anyone at all. I think it's clear you haven't.

[@LeutherGreengager-ip1uw]

@@Warwickensis they're more than welcome, Father Munn.

[@WalksTalksThoughts]

I don't know what happened to my comment. I was wondering if there were any Anglican Catholic parishes in Northern Ireland?

[@Warwickensis]

Hello, you put a comment about Northern Ireland on a different video which I replied to. I haven't deleted it! 🙂

[@Warwickensis]

Here is my reply from your comment on the other video: "Not at the moment. As you can appreciate, the religious situation in Northern Ireland is very delicate. Just as the Orthodox Church is struggling to establish itself, our presence in Northern Ireland would need very careful consideration and consultation with the local communities."

[@virginlamo8202]

It seems Roman Catholics forget that 'catholic' started being used as a way to differentiate from other Churches due to schism. Before schism, there's no need to differentiate. After schism, there is. The Eastern Orthodox churches were just the Eastern Churches. But since they and Rome split up, there's a need to differentiate. And it seems to be a similar thing with Roman Catholic and Anglican Catholic, with the differentiator being the locale of the Church. There are other churches that have Catholic in their title. There are other leaders of different churches being called Pope. Now, it seems that 'catholic' is used to denote the Church that Christ establish. Christ didn't establish "The Roman Catholic Church" he established The Church. And the Roman Catholic belief is that "The Roman Catholic Church" and "The Church" are one and the same. It does seem that Jesus bestowed on Peter a unique authority, especially when comparing Matthew 16 to Isaiah 22 and also taking into consideration Jesus Christ being of the house of David. Either way, as a Ukrainian Catholic (in union with Rome) it's trippy seeing "Catholic" and no union with Rome. But if we remind ourselves of what 'catholic' actually means and why it's used, then it's less trippy, and really opens up a whole new world of understanding.

[@amagnant3736]

Hi there, are you in Communion with the Popes Church, the Holy Catholic Church or other name the Roman Catholic Church?

[@Warwickensis]

No, we are not in communion with the Roman Catholic Church. Maybe one day, God Willing, that will change.

[@Warwickensis]

Nor are we in communion with the Holy Catholic Church: en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Catholic_Church_(Anglican_Rite) Though, I think things are thawing there.

[@amagnant3736]

@@Warwickensis thank you sir for your time. May God bless you!

[@Warwickensis]

@@amagnant3736 God bless you too!

[@Basaljet]

Looking back at the 39 Articles I'm glad to put it all behind me!

[@Warwickensis]

Indeed! The ACC does not require any subscription to the XXXIX Articles. To my mind that removes the ambiguity designed to hold together the historic "parties" within Sixteenth Century Anglicanism and allows one to return to the doctrine of the Early Church without Reformational spectacles.

[@brjimbo1]

The Church of Ireland made a declaration in 2009 addressing the 39 Articles as a historical document.

[@Warwickensis]

@@brjimbo1 and what was their conclusion? That the Articles aren't binding in the CoI?

[@brjimbo1]

I believe Pope Francis mentioned in his inaugural address, "...the Church Catholic needs Anglicans".

[@christopherquinn5899]

The trouble I have with the Anglican Church is that its origin is a political one, and it broke with the apostolic Church to serve the desires of England's monarch.

[@Warwickensis]

Indeed. Though the question whether it actually broke from the Apostolic Church is debatable. Whether it did or did not, the Anglican Catholic Church is not part of the Anglican Communion, has orders though lines which include the Old Catholic and Polish National Catholic Churches, offers the sacrifice of the Mass, recognises the Real Presence in the Mass, and does not subscribe to the XXXIX Articles.

[@christopherquinn5899]

@@WarwickensisI probably ought to have attended more closely to your video.

[@Warwickensis]

@@christopherquinn5899 might this help? kzbin.info/www/bejne/qH2limtomLxsntk

[@clivejames5058]

Henry VIIIth was actually a devout Roman Catholic but he was also selfish and felt divinely appointed (normal for Monarchs in those days) so in his obsession with having a male heir, he split from Rome. However, Luther's Reformation was sweeping across Europe at that time, as you know, and it would have made its way to England regardless of Henry's needs and wants. There was just too much corruption in Rome at that time, for matters to be ignored. Not only that, but if Pope Paul III had not excommunicated him and if Pope Pius V had not only excommunicated his daughter Elizabeth 1st but also gave Catholics the green light to kill her things could have been different - so in that sense it was political, but not from Henry's side - it was from Rome's.

[@Warwickensis]

@@clivejames5058 it was a bit political from Henry's side, though. He needed a son to ensure the stability of a kingdom which had recently been wracked by the Wars of the Roses. Of course, he may have got a little obsessive about that.

[@pedrodebreix3834]

As a Roman Catholic, I find myself very curious about your order. I don't know if you know, or if you believe this, but it turns out that the Church of England and the Anglican Communion lost the Apostolic succession, because they changed the ordination formula, making the ritual invalid and burying the lineage of the Apostles. Now, from what I understand, correct me if I'm wrong, you belong to a Church that has separated itself from the traditional Anglican Communion, correct? If so, then have you managed to regain Apostolic succession in any way?

[@Warwickensis]

We have. Two of our founding bishops had Old Catholic orders. Bishop Albert Chambers had Bishop Rowinski of the Polish National Catholic Church in his line, while Bishop Francisco Pagtakhan had Old Catholic orders both regarded as valid by Rome. The Anglican Catholic Church recognises the Sacrifice of the Mass and the Real Presence. With regard to your statement that the Anglican Church lost the apostolic succession, this was not true until they started ordaining women which introduced a serious doubt about modern Anglican Orders. The Papal Bull Apostolicae Curae was firmly rebutted in the Bull Saepius Officio. Further, the Ordinal of Pope Paul VI changed the form of the ordination in much the same way as Pope Leo XIII said the Anglicans did in the 16th Century. This means that, since Pope Paul VI, either Anglicans preserved the Apostolic succession in the 16th Century or the Roman Catholic Church lost it with Pope Paul.

[@Frcherub]

Numbers not only exist they express reality. Science relies on that. In any case the analogy doesn't work. We have the words of Christ. Then again express your personal opinion. I certainly agree with you we should always begin with what we agree. You may claim to be a Catholic but there is not much Catholic left in what used to be the Anglo-Catholicism of my youth. It would seem that you are, personally, Catholic in many of your views and practices. I am now a Catholic and I have no objection whatsoever that you calling yourself a Catholic because most of what you personally stand for is very Catholic indeed. So, Father, as I rightly call you, please keep on keeping on. Best wishes aye.

[@Warwickensis]

Numbers do indeed exist, and in producing mathematical models they create analogies with reality passing through Galilean Relativity, Newtonian Mechanics, Special and General Relativity, Quantum Gravity, Topological Quantum Field Theory and, my favourite, Twistor Geometry. The Nominalists, of course, hold that numbers do not exist in themselves but are only labels. For them Mathematics is invented rather than discovered. Given that absolute truths can be made about numbers, I would agree that numbers are more "Real" than empirical reality but even then there are deeper questions such as hyperreal numbers, imaginary numbers et c. The numbers in themselves are real but which set of them is the number system of reality? There is choice implicit even in which mathematical theory provides the best analogy to describe reality. We still don't know which it is. There is a good reason (logos) for that, even if people can't accept that reason.

[@robdee81]

I was raised Anglo catholic and im now Roman Catholic and the two traditions are quite similar. Anglo Catholics are very Catholic but i wanted to be fully catholic and thats why i left my church. For me i came to see in the early church fathers the primacy of Rome and the special position the Pope held as the successor of St. Peter.

[@Warwickensis]

I am happy to hear that you have found a home that meets your spiritual needs. I hope you find as much fulfilment in the Roman Catholic Church as I do in the Anglican Catholic Church.

[@robdee81]

@@Warwickensis Thankyou for your reply , we all worship the same Lord and God and have so much in common , some of my favourite people are Anglicans , God bless you.

[@a.ihistory5879]

I'm the opposite, I went from Roman Catholic to Anglo-Catholic because of Romes inconsistencies and they also tell me my marriage isn't valid because I was once a JW who then left the JWs and became Catholic. They told me I'm fornicating until my marriage gets blessed, which my wife refuses to do, and that I needed to refrain from the eucharist. It felt very wrong to me and I felt stuck.

[@Warwickensis]

@a.ihistory5879 sorry to hear that. I hope you have found yourself a spiritual home that will enable both you and your wife to grow in the Faith.

[@a.ihistory5879]

@@Warwickensis Found an APA church not too far from me. My wife is still a Jehovah's Witness unfortunately.

[@JohnFDonovan-by1nt]

Father Jonathan, as an RC I can only say you must live in a bubble. You have not noticed that....Roman Catholics are not even nice to each other these days? I wouldn't take things too personally. Some one has published containing Francis' nasty insults to conservative Catholics. Francis claims he believes in tolerance and ecumenical love while he suppresses Catholics who wish to worship in the tradition of their ancestors. Good priests and good bishops are being sacked . Catholics have been driven out of their parishes if they disagree with present liturgical practices. We are at each others throats. While I do accept papal claims to authority over the church, I also realize that there is a world of difference between the Church's very careful definition of infallibility and the very clear restrictions placed on this particular charism, and the ridiculous parody that everything the pope says is ipso facto the very word of God Himself. Even at the supposed height of papal power in the middle ages no one would have accepted this. While I sympathize with your beliefs that we should try to get along, I just listened to a sermon by the Anglican Canon Kennan who uses the very same arguments to suggest that we should behave in like fashion as the CoE abandons Christianity's understanding of sexual morality in the light of Scripture. Agreeing to disagree is not always good for the Church. The complicated question is where do we draw the line? The only difference I see between Welby and Francis is that Welby knows there will be no resistance because historically Anglicans have understandably prized structural unity over theological unity. Francis is a Welby wannabe but knows that Roman Catholics actually believe the Church should have theological unity after what we saw happen in the Reformation. This means that to survive Francis has to play the clever role of slowly weakening the foundations hoping no one will believe that the building might collapse. Benedict's authority was respected because he grounded his beliefs in the verities of the traditional church. Francis has little respect because he grounds his beliefs in himself and anything published after 1963 when the new enlightened "church" was sung into being. I admire Anglo Catholics, because they have had to fight for what they believe. This is why they are so articulate. Many , not all Catholics, want their beliefs presented to them like a pre- cooked meal heated in a micro wave. Just tell me what I must believe. Do not ask me to think because it gives me head aches..Thought is the pope's job and the bishops are his branch managers.

[@Warwickensis]

I appreciate what you say. I don't think that I do live in so small a bubble as I indeed see that there is much turbulence in thr RCC at the moment. Not being RCC, I don't feel I can comment on anything more than official doctrine. Not being an Anglican, I can only comment on the CofE because it claims to speak for the country in matters of morals by virtue of its established nature. I am sorry about the Modernism that has infected the hierarchy. Pope St Pius X must be furious! As you say, we Anglican Catholics have had to fight, leaving the Anglican Communion in order to pursue Christ in His historic and eternal teaching. I worry for those RCs in the same boat, fighting against devilish influences, and pray that we may have common cause together to seek the throne of Christ.

[@JohnFDonovan-by1nt]

I wasn't quite unsure about the bubble part but one of my besetting sins is being provocative. Although an RC, i have played the organ in both Anglican and mainstream protestant churches. Sometimes I have encountered congregants in these churches who think the grass is greener in my traditional back yard in terms of unity not necessarily theology. From the liturgical standpoint, I have always held that if the English speaking clergy after the liturgical reforms and the introduction of the new rite of Paul VII had bothered to consult their Anglican high church brethren on how to do this correctly, we RCs could have avoided the DISASTER, the Council wrought on our worship. The destruction of our piety has emptied our churches. @@Warwickensis

[@Warwickensis]

@@JohnFDonovan-by1nt I hear you and you have my prayers. It's something that we certainly share across the obvious divide.

[@Frcherub]

There is not much point in saying you reject the Papal Office if you cannot give reasons why you do, especially in light of what Jesus said to Peter in the Gospels. As you amply s how, what Anglicans are then left with is your own personal opinion and, in the case of the C of E, what the monarch (Elizabeth 1) and her political friends said was true. A very unbiblical position.

[@Warwickensis]

First, thank you for commenting. My main intention for this video was not to emphasize differences but to share commonalities. While I am not going to explain here why Anglican Catholics do not subscribe to Papal Supremacy and Infallibility, I will say that we are aligned with the Orthodox Church on this matter. That's not choice, that's orthodoxy, just as your personal opinion is to hold the Roman Catholic definition of Papacy. Secondly, I am in the Anglican Catholic Church and not the Church of England. In that sense, I am not an Anglo-Catholic but something more akin to English Orthodoxy. I chose my church even as you chose yours Nonetheless, God bless you and keep you in His grace.

[@stevefranks1957]

I am sorry that you have received rude comments from people who say they are Roman Catholics, love one another as our Lord Jesus Christ expects of us, God Bless all Christians - from an Australian Catholic 🦘🙏

[@Warwickensis]

Thank you!