An Intro to Block Detection at Chadwick Model Railway | 137.

[@stevemossmakes2306]

Great video Charlie. Thanks for taking the time to put it together. Very quick question. I was hoping for transponding. You mentioned it’s not available. When looking at the versions of train control it looks like Silver and Gold include Digitrax transponding. Can you confirm that it really isn’t available in your version. I’m just wondering if there’s updated versions I should watch out for. Thanks Steve,

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

I know of no one who has got it to work with Digitrax and TC but I shall pin this comment and see what response we get. Regards Charlie

[@Zebrails]

You thank your Patreons... I thank your Patreons! I thank you for your english of foreign language... as my running of trains is DC and basic DCC's bells, lights, and whistles... uh, possible "face-palm" collisions, various "oopsies", and "oh crap, how'd that happen?" I enjoy your efforts and education... and, of course, your "freelanced editorial statements"... of without, would not be humanly understandable. Digression and explanation is humorous yet important. Please keep up this good work. Standing ovations are well deserved for you. Continual gratefulness, John British Columbia, Canada P.S. Certainly, I thank your Patreons!

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

Thanks for such a heartwarming comment John. Regards Charlie

[@awrevilleoogaugerailway8735]

We use iTrain on our layout using an ESU ECOS, a Z21 and the Dijkeijs detectors. We have added touch screen monitors so have larger buttons to make it easier to use. Works very well, we can run around 11 trains at the same time, still adding details and scenery to the layout but happy to help if anyone is interested in using iTrain and setup etc. There is a really good forum for support with some experienced users who can help you out and the developer of iTrain is always commenting for support. Cost wise yes it can be rather expensive depending on what you want the layout to do, also it has taken a considerable amount of time to setup and get to run smoothly, still have the odd issue but is quite satisfying watching the trains run round on their routes. Great video as always Charlie 👍

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

I’m so pleased that you found the video interesting AR. But isn’t it an addictive hobby! Regards Charlie

[@mcswain30]

Thank you so much for all of your videos. I’ve just completed my bench work (about 85% complete) and I stumbled on your channel a couple days ago and have been watching a lot. You do a fantastic job at breaking the tasks down so common folk, like me, can understand. I look forward to watching more!

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

Thanks MCS, that’s really kind of you to say so. It’s great to have you on board, regards, Charlie

[@Julian-zc4ik]

Hi Charlie - I’m running iTrain+Digikeijs DR5000+Digikeijs 4088/4018. Great system, well priced - bought it all from James at DCCtrainautomation whose support is amazing if you’re a customer. By the way the CS on the 4088 stands for current sensing if anyone’s wondering. Cheers Charlie, appreciate all the hard work you put in to your videos, very professional and enjoyable. Julian

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

Great comment Julian, many thanks.

[@markellis6413]

Fascinating stuff Charlie. Costs are eye-watering though I can see the advantages of making your railway more realistic. Always tell how serious a video is by the amount of time you have your glasses on. Never underestimate your skill to make the most involved subject clear and easy to follow.

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

Thanks Mark, I’m so pleased that you found it interesting mate. Regards Charlie

[@modellingwithrosie]

I have gone down the route of microchips to control signals. They use simple logic to detect points and trains. I need a signaller to set routes but then you drive each train to the signals. No computer needed once the code has been uploaded to the chips. They can be expanded and have mimic boards etc and the whole thing on my large layout cost less than £200. Down side is I had to learn programming and it can't do train automation but would probably work with DC. Always something for everybody in our hobby, keep up the good work Charlie.

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

Thanks Mark and I’m so pleased that you enjoyed the video.

[@johnwinter6061]

Agree wire blocks from day one! Also suggest all wires come to the front for easy access and changes.

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

All down to good planning John. Regards, Charlie.

[@anthonywood9129]

Mrs Slinger is a secret admirer of you Charlie she sits patiently while I watch your regular postings. Having watched your latest on block detection, she remarked, 'I do not have any idea what he is talking about but he has a nice voice' . She was also surprised that I new such a nice man from the Navy. It must be nice to live in such innocent bliss little does she KNOW.

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

What a truly understanding wife that you have Anthony. These things don't come down to luck either! Regards Charlie

[@dfrangos1]

Thank you for this video! Helped me understand and plan for block detection and the addition of train controller!

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

I’m so pleased you found it useful David. Regards Charlie

[@perthsouth5576]

Hi Charlie. I’m like you a Digitrax man, with TrainController Gold software and a locobuffer USB interface. I bought all this stuff before Brexit when it was a bit cheaper. I must confess I found Dave Townend’s early McKinlay Railway videos very informative and I copied most of his ideas. The Digitrax and Train Controller manuals are comprehensive if confusing at times and the videos of Rudy at Rudysmodelrailway channel all helped make planning a complex layout more straightforward. I had little understanding of electronics but managed to plan out and construct my system which works really well. My system gives me the ability to run a timetable, change locos easily between trains and have a fully functioning signalling system. Most importantly, I can have several trains running with conflicting routes safely in a way that would be almost impossible to organise manually even with several operators. Great video. Thanks. Hugh

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

A great comment Hugh, many thanks. Could you tell me in a fresh comment what you use to control your signals?

[@perthsouth5576]

Hi Charlie. I use Digitrax SE8C units to power the signals but the SE8Cs are controlled by Train Controller. Your original SE8C video helped when I first set them up! I have accessory signals added to the TC switchboard (the TC inbuilt block signals don’t haveUK logic) and these instruct the SE8C units. The TC accessory signals change aspects using the triggers and conditions feature. The trigger is a combination of the correct route ahead being set up and the occupancy ahead being clear. Routes are set up ahead of trains when running automatically and thus set the signal. However, I can also set up routes manually using on screen push buttons in each block. I just touch the button of the block the train is in and touch button on the next block I want to move to and the points change and the signal changes to suit the route. This also works for entrance to a group of sidings from a main line. Signals on sections of plain line, where there are no diverging routes (blocks follow on one after another) are set up as automatic signals normally at green and change to red and then yellow and back to green again using occupancy of the routes ahead to act as triggers to show the correct aspect. Signals on blocks with various route and block options are set as controlled signals, normally red and only show a proceed aspect when the route is activated and clear. Hope this helps. I hope to do another signalling/switchboard video on my own channel sometime. I am still installing signals but have enough fitted to know it all works. It’s difficult stuff to explain in a few words! Well done again on all your videos. Hugh

[@dkaustin98]

I spend all day at my JOB solving other people’s’ computer problems, usually created by themselves. What you presented looks like a lot of after hours WORK! I think my steam powered 1900 - 1913 era narrow gauge Copper mining layout in On30 can live just fine without block control. Nor will signals be required except maybe a semaphore for a station stop. Interesting video and well presented. I will say I did learn a few things. Thanks Charlie.

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

I’m glad you found the option that interests you. Life can be too complicated! Regards Charlie

[@johnwinter6061]

By the time you add up the cost of all those components, the Viessmann Commander price does not look too bad. All covered straight out of the box and more, except for the block decoders. I've got one new and one second hand. Commander V2 has been delayed for years! So good luck finding it!

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

Thanks, John, for an interesting look into your world. Regards, Charlie.

[@raymondmoderski3216]

HI Charlie, I am a returning hobbyist who is 13 years into retirement and restarting but just with N scale trains. In my time before I had an outstanding collection of O and Std trains. I never had too complicated an electrical system, so all of these digital approaches are mind boggling for a retired pediatric oncology nurse practitioner. This video has been exceptional! Thank you. RM

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

I’m so pleased that you enjoyed it Raymond. Sadly, it’s no longer just two wires. Regards Charlie.

[@glenatkin4972]

Good evening, its 20:05 on a Saturday evening and I've been saving this to watch. Sat down glass of wine time to watch. Take it away Charlie.

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

I do hope that you enjoyed it Glen.

[@Bobs1Models]

I have just watch the video on block detection. An excellent video for the person who is just starting out with DCC A couple of points I think it is worth mentioning. The feedback system you mentioned that Digitrax does not have is called Railcom . And you also don't need to have 2 sensors to each block of track you can use a system of speed related movements to gauge where the loco is and programme the speed reduction from there. I run a Z21 system with a mixture of Digikeijs and Roco products and use Itrains Plus for automation. And have found it most rewarding and FUN. The total cost on this layout is around £800 and climbing. (and that's not including all the locos,wagons, coaches an chips) As you know I love to potter about with electronics and as such have another layout which I am able to switch from one system to another by unscrewing a few wires. I am a the moment setting it up to use Merg block detectors (the Diode voltage drop sort not the current sensing version.) The break down of this system is 1 DCC++EX for a command station. Arduino Mega £13.00 Motor Shield £18.00 Wi-Fi Board £ 5.00 DCC Next for the accessory decoder (a very clever little board) £11.00 Servos for points £1.00 Relays for point frogs £1.50 Block Detection Board £ 2.18 And a signal driver system developed by another Merg member £ 2.00 Total £53.68 This shows the near the top of the spectrum and the DIY at the bottom. I hope this is a little help to those who are contemplating getting into the DCC side of this wonderful hobby.

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

An interesting comment Bob. However, using Train Controller Bronze or Silver, a second sensor is certainly advised. It’s only with Gold that block length is entered. Regards Charlie.

[@Bobs1Models]

@@ChadwickModelRailway Hi charlie I use ITrain Pro and have setup distance and speed

[@goranfagerstrom2759]

Great video again Charlie... I have a layout with 30 feedbacks distributed over 15 blocks. I had been running Rocrail for some time before I got an iTrain trial license valid for two months in the Spring this year. Two months trying out iTrain was perfect. It made it possible for me to figure out which level of iTrain to purchase. I settled on Plus. Thanks to Bob Fuller's extremely pedagogical video tutorials on youtube it has been enjoyable to install and run iTrain. I use loconet decoders and detectors made by a Swedish maker, MGP, that are very reliable and not expensive at all. A detector for eight blocks is priced at about 15 pounds.

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

Great info Gorman. Worth some investigation too.

[@LordInter]

omg this is so cool, I love the odometer too then you can set up service schedules based on millage covered 😃

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

It’s a great system LI.

[@DaveSmith-Robspalu]

Hi Charlie, Another great video. My layout has full track circuit block and is fully signalled and interlocked using 9 BDL162 and BDL168 train detection and 30+ LocoIO / Locoservo units to control points and signals, as well as a DS64 and DS52 units. Being a retired software engineer, I wrote my own control software suite which includes interlocking, control Panel, LocoNet interface, Automatic Train Control, Automatic Route Setting and Throttles. I have used Digitrax since I moved to DCC, and have had very few problems, mainly with throttles. Keep the videos coming.

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

Thanks Dave, that’s very reassuring to know.

[@davidbrigham1647]

I finally got round to viewing this last night and as ever found it very informative. Some years ago I planned an n gauge layout with a couple of hidden storage yards to be controlled with TC which I had trialled on a test track. Due to various house moves it never got built but now having finally settled I have just completed laying track for the first yard and installed the wiring for block detection. I was stunned to hear you speak about the disparity in costs for the UK having not looked at it for a long while, the silver version appears to have gone from around £300 to around £450 and is now causing me to re-think my options. Many thanks for pointing this out before I had gone too far down the line so to speak.

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

Take a good look at iTrain, it’s the way to go.

[@Teesbrough]

Confession: I jumped from you introducing the BDL168 straight to the costings bit. Then you showed the Instruction Manual ring binder. Yes. Think I’ll stick to DC and buy a few more locos instead. Next video please!

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

Totally understandable Will. See you in 2 weeks, regards Charlie

[@davewykes3521]

Excellent video as always Charlie. Many thanks for all your videos. Learning a lot. System ITrain Pro 5 (upgraded from 4) . Digijekeis DR 5000 and 4088 LN detectors , Tam Valley points (via servos). All connected by Loconet bus. Cables easy to make. Dave.

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

Thanks Dave and I’m pleased that ITrain is working out for you.

[@John_N_Quay_Harbour]

Brilliantly clear Charlie. Thanks

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

You’re most welcome John.

[@Texiun]

This video couldn't be any better timed if you tried, I'm currently 80% of the way through laying my track so far, and I've been curious what block detection is and what it's capable of. Thank you Charlie for your continuous videos of wisdom, your friendly nature and careful explanation in all your videos. Your guides are second to none. You've earned a subscriber and Patreon for life. Regards Tasmania, Australia, (PS I'm looking forward to when you hit 50k subscribers!)

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

What a heartwarming comment Kodi. Regards Charlie

[@jameswhiteside5213]

Hi Charlie, I use a Lenz command station with LDT occupancy feedback sensors. iTrain controls my layout which runs completely automated. I am very pleased with iTrain, it is a pleasure to use, completely reliable and my trains run very smoothly. I also have semaphore and coloured light signals all controlled by iTrain through the command station. I have had the same core setup for ten years. And all of this (apart from a section which runs through my shed) is in my garden in my own narrowish gauge, British outline, G scale. My advice to anyone who wants to start in computer automation is to start with a simple layout, master that and then expand your empire. Charlie, I really enjoy your videos, and although I’m in a different scale and environment I have picked up plenty of tips and ideas from watching your channel. Best Wishes, James

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

Thanks James, that’s very kind of you to say so mate. Regards Charlie

[@alexlile5561]

Very well laid out instructions.

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

Thanks Alex, regards Charlie

[@tedblack7625]

Thank you for this video. The phrase “scenic trains” perfectly describes what I am doing with automation on my layout. Using ESU detection and point control along with iTrain Pro, I run scheduled passenger trains and through freight trains “in the background.” Meanwhile, “in the foreground” I use the ESU CabControl and Shipit computer generated switch lists for the operation of my local freight trains. This setup has served me particularly well during the Pandemic when having friends share in the operation of the layout has not been possible.

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

Great comment Ted, regards Charlie

[@denzil932]

Charlie, I find all of your videos very entertaining and extremely informative. Please keep them coming.

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

Thanks Denzel, that’s very kind of you to say so. Regards, Charlie

[@chrislockerby1411]

Oh Charlie what have you done after watching this Mrs Chris and I went out and bought the Firebrand Loco from my local supplier and I’ve just been running her in and ripping out my track and replacing it with a Double Slip. Your Right Charlie this Hobby is addictive especially if your demo the stuff we love. Keep up the Great work

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

What a heartwarming comment Chris. Happy modelling mate.

[@anthonybarrass9990]

Hi Charlie, i didnt catch all the prices and I know i can go back and listen but the usual reason for the price discrepancies is VAT. They have to add on the 20% dreaded VAT. You get it all the time when they show the suggested SRP in Dollars for the Americans and yet we end up paying more for it in Sterling but as they have different VAT rates in America from state to state they never show a price with VAT included. I bet those prices in Argentina were ex VAT as well. Hope this helps and thanks for another amazing video. Really love seeing your railway come along.

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

I’m afraid that you’re mistaken. The price difference was imposed by the designer after Brexit to emphasise his distaste!

[@anthonybarrass9990]

@@ChadwickModelRailway ok wow. That is some distaste there. Still a great video. I like the idea of block detection but not sure if I need it but at least I know more now when considering it.

[@johnmarshall2660]

Hi Charlie, This video popped up just at the right time as I cant get proper answers from the MERG group, so nearly finished the Sheffield Midland Station layout apart from the loop round the back but getting info on Block detection wiring has been a nightmare but I think your video has gone a long way to help as I was unsure about points and D.Slips and D.Crossings plus lots of short lengths of tracks on Entry and Exit to Station, Hardware I used diode back to Back block detection a MERG original design which I made 6 channel which eventually feeds to the DCCEX command station via an I2C Bus, points via PCA9685 servo drivers again back via I2C Bus, I have the Command station and 8 District cutout modules again a member of MERG design but very cheap and they work well, I want to initially use JMRI and like you say that will be fun with the learning curve, then once all that works I will contact James at DCCTrainautomation regarding getting iTrain software, hope i'm still here to do all this ...LOL

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

Sounds like you’re making great progress mate. Good luck with the project, regards Charlie.

[@frankwhittle4364]

When you said "what can block control do for you" I immediately thought of "The Life of Brian" When John Cleese said "and what did the Romans ever do for you". Brilliant video but a bit to rich for me, superbly explained. Frank

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

Thanks Frank, you’re too kind.

[@andrewpalm2103]

Another excellent video, Charlie! Three days ago I got my first DCC starter set, a Zepher Express, even though my new layout is a very small switching layout for one loco. My Walthers Plymouth switcher now runs smoothly at very slow crawling speeds. I also did my first DCC conversion, putting a Tsunami2 TSU-1100 and speaker into an old Proto 2000 SW9/1200. Whew! I had to remove the cab interior for the speaker and the extra weight for the decoder, but the results were worth it. I can now have very authentic sounds when I'm in the mood. The technology now is leaps and bounds beyond what was common in the late 90's when I did my last layout build. Thanks for sharing your knowledge and experience. Cheers from Wisconsin!

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

What a heartwarming comment Andrew, regards Charlie.

[@24th1879]

It's Friday, ..It's 12 o' clock, It's Charlie at Chadwick Time.... for those of us of a certain age will understand the reference. Lol..... Thanks Charlie for another very interesting, entertaining and informative video.

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

Thanks Chris, I’m so pleased to have you on-board. Regards Charlie

[@DAVIDJGLOVER1952]

Fascinating stuff Charlie and extremely (as always) well presented and edited. it's something I've no intention of including as my layout's too small but the possibilities for a larger layout are incredible. Playing trains has certainly come a long way since I was a lad!

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

I’m so pleased that you found it interesting Dave even though that it’s not quite your cup of tea. Regards Charlie.

[@andrewstevenson5449]

Interesting stuff, and well-presented as ever, Charlie. Right, crawling over. "If you want block detection in DC, you need to switch to DCC." Ahem. My dad and I had block detection on our layout back in the 1980s. Exactly the same principle as you showed, with insulated rail joiners at each end of the block (which we had already, of course, with control DC). If there was something with a circuit (a motor or a lit wagon, or a wagon with resistor across its wheels), it would trip the track detection module, and it'd show as occupied and set the preceding signal to red. The track detection modules were bought as such: they were a PCB with a few components and a relay. I can't remember how much they were, but they weren't cheap even then (although arguably you got more actual components on the circuit board back then) so we only used them in the main station area and in hidden sidings. With regard to the software price variations from country to country, I noticed the manufacturer was somethingorother GmbH - so a German company. It could be something to do with exporting from the EU to the UK, particularly if there's any physical element to the product. I don't suppose model railway software is at the top of the British Trade Secretary's to-do list... It sounds like there's a market for a free or cheap user-friendly interface to JMRI.

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

A great comment Andrew. And rekindled memories too. Regards Charlie.

[@chrisbenefield9889]

Another great video Charlie. I am a Digikeijs and iTrain man which I have found to be both cost effective and robust in operation. Whilst I see where you are coming from with the two sections per block approach to achieve accurate stopping, I have found that I can get away with one section per block for stopping a train accurately with iTrain. It does require a detailed understanding of how iTrain blocks can be configured but does save on cost and time once mastered. The Bob Fuller/Iain Morrison videos on iTrain are invaluable here, as they are for understanding iTrain in general and I cannot recommend them highly enough.

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

Great comment Chris and I may well give it a try.

[@brendenvosper7772]

I take it with the block editior properties you can set up bi-directional stopping and have three sensor sections in the block to have accurate stopping at either end of the block? The train controller program is expensive but its ease of function probably says its good value at the same time.

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

Yes, Brenden, that’s completely correct. Regards, Charlie.

[@johnwinter6061]

Google a KZbin video called. '23 Block detection on McKinley Railway'.

[@johnmarshall2660]

Hi Charlie, Ive been looking through various youtube etc for me upgrade, Just came across your video them block detectors seem a bit expensive for me I made some Diode Voltage drop boards which was a MERG design but I designed a board with 6 channels which works great even with a 10kohm resistor across track ... cost for 7 boards so 42 channels about £45.00 they output to logic level and will go into my base station via I2C Bus think its similar to Loconet .... plus your video helped with how I position blocks and sensors ... Regards John

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

Thanks John, I’m so pleased that you found the video interesting and useful. Regards, Charlie

[@Millsbritish4x4]

Great Video, wet my whistle to get something similar setup, did notice that Digikeijs has gone belly up from supply chain issues...shame.

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

Yes, but I do believe that their designers have gone to another company. Regards, Charlie

[@phillipthomas7185]

Hello. I went over to loco detection using Itrain, about 6 months ago. I have found it a useful tool to monitor my loco movements. Took time to wire but worth it. Found having 2 feedbacks on station track gave the stopping smoother.

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

Thanks Philip, very useful to know. Regards Charlie

[@nw24153ns]

MTH DCS O gauge - I glean bits of info that may apply to me and incorporate that info into my layout. Thanks for sharing!

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

I’m so pleased that you found it interesting mate.

[@kite7214]

Hi Charlie. I am running a small N Gauge Peco track layout measuring 5feet x 2Foot6, but want to watch my trains doing their thing through a busy junction. Using Lenz LZV200 with iTrain (magnificent). Have approx 30 points now, but upper level under construction will take total to 50 points. The MTB MP1 small footprint motors are slow motion, but much cheaper than Tortoise. Looked at your excellent Traincontroller video 12 months ago, but didn’t like Freiwald’s Brexit punishment prices, so after much research chose iTrain, which has turned out to be a winner. This purchase has been enhanced by the excellent KZbin tutorials from Bob Fuller explaining in great detail what the software is capable of and shows exactly how to do it. Will be using Railcom to automatically know which trains are where on the layout. Lenz after sales support has been excellent too. But as you said, all these systems are not cheap when you add it all up. Solution=Don’t add it up. Simples. :-). Keith

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

A great comment Keith, thank you. I can only agree the prices of these products are incredible. Regards Charlie

[@herrkiwi3110]

Absolutely love building my layout for automation, Marklin CS3+ , Traincontroller Gold 9 , Marklin S88's for detection and ESU switchpilots for switching points and signals.

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

Thanks HK, much appreciated.

[@gerrybvr]

I'm using JMRI, DCC++EX, Arduinos and generic infrared sensors. A steep learning curve but very rewarding. Total cost was less than many single branded units.

[@caravancapers5091]

Just starting my journey using the same hardware and software with some MERG goodies thrown into the mix as well…

[@gerrybvr]

@@caravancapers5091 I found Little Wicket channel very helpful

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

Great tips guys, many thanks

[@evangiles17]

I am a Marklin collector and I have at a fairly decent price converted all but two of my AC loco's to digital for one reason only and that is the relays that were used to reverse the loco's would eventually play up and no matter how hard you tried you could never adjust the arm on them - They would either jump from forward to reverse or wouldn't change direction at all You always risked breaking the little arm off the relay from constantly trying to adjust it

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

Thanks Evan, an interesting problem.

[@vincenthuying98]

Thorough explanation Charlie, sharing makes things user friendly. Although the several suppliers of these appendages seriously have to work their part of user friendliness.

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

An excellent comment Vincent, so true. Regards Charlie

[@Parkendnorth]

Great video Charlie I have seen people use light gate switches to a mimic board for block detection very simple but effective

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

Yes it is a useful alternative. Regards Charlie.

[@RonsTrainsNThings]

Hi Charlie. This is a great primer on automation. I'm not so interested in automation, but am very interested in current sensing block detection for signals. Thanks for your input.

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

Thanks Ron, I’m so pleased that you found it interesting.

[@crashj]

Thanks for the ideas. My plan will be to set up the blocks to work with digikey and go with block control later, as you suggest.

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

I’m so pleased that you found it interesting HJ.

[@James-ih4gz]

Thank you so much does give a good insight into how much automation will cost. It will definitely be a budget consideration if you understand what i mean

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

I’m so pleased that you found the information useful James. Regards Charlie

[@cknop]

Great Video! Thank you! I have the TrainController Software from Freiwald and Hardware from Littfinski . I have two Digital Center. One High Speed Interface for the Blocks and one for the Track and Switch from Tams. I've been working on the system for 7 years.

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

Thanks for sharing Christian.

[@kellypaws]

Always a highly watchable video. If I may comment Charlie, Your videos have a very particular USP - you. Where you are on your own, making blunders, being hugely endearing and likeable, the videos are wonderfully entertaining. McKinley - none of those things. Huge, technically amazing, a massive endeavour and entirely impressive. But there's no charm. Stick to Chadwick, where the fun can still shine through.

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

What a heartwarming comment KO but rest assured, I only film, edit and occasionally narrate at McKinley.

[@andybster63]

Hi Charlie, great video as always. We have spoken before but for your viewers (and you), I have gone down the Lenz/Train Controller Gold route, using a Lenz LZV100 box and LH100 hand throttle. I have a Lenz USB Interface connected to my PC (which was a bu&&er to set up BTW) all set up to 'help' control my extensive 4 circuit, double level loop covering 18' x 9' in my attic. I was very much influenced by Everard Junction's KZbin videos and original layout. I also have the Lenz equivalents of the BDL-168's (that come in units for 8 sections/blocks LR101 - 10 of at around £80 ea.!) Each of these require 4 smaller units - LS101's to manage pairs of blocks (about £30 ea.). I also have 15 x Lenz LS100 boxes (£85 ea.) for controlling all the points on the layout (each board able to manage up to 6 points). Learning, settin up and using Train Controller Gold was a fairly steep learning curve! Now though, I have the whole thing setup such that all I need to do is press the "1" key on my keyboard to start 2 trains "tail chasing" each other on one loop - similarly 2, 3 & 4 keys and I can have 8 trains running autonomously in seconds!! Obviously, that's for when I "demo" the layout for visiting guests! It's much more often I only set 2 or maybe three of these 'sequences' and manually "play" with another loco or two. Hope this is of interest to you all. Thx.

[@andybster63]

PS. forgot to mention, I use Heathcote Electronics IRDASC 3-aspect signal cards to sequentially control all main line signals. (£19 ea.!).

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

A fascinating set up Andy, good on you. Regards Charlie

[@hovermotion]

Wow thats some setup and money spent., sounds it was worth the effort in the end....well done. Jim.

[@medictechnologyinternation1178]

Thank you Charlie. I’m considering getting back into model railroading but using a computer control system. Your videos are very helpful 👍

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

That’s great news MTI, I’m so pleased that you find my channel useful. Regards Charlie

[@robertbage5052]

The hobby has many facets. My hobby is about playing trains. Electronics is not my bag. I'd rather run the trains myself as well as sit back and watch them. I can see where my trains are. Don't need electronics to tell me. Thanks for the video. Bob

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

That’s the beauty of a hobby Bob, it means different things to different folks. Regards Charlie

[@ModelRailroadTechniques]

Love it Charlie.. Well Done. I use a mix of Digikeijs, LDT and I am making some of my own now using ARCOMORA.

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

Interesting options there mate, thank you, regards Charlie

[@SuperRobertwillis]

As soon as you mentioned electronics and wireing I thought I’m glad I have a small layout Charlie and won’t go down that route ❤️❤️❤️❤️👀😂😂👀👀😂

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

But at least you watched it (hopefully)!

[@Rule1ModelRailways]

I am using iTrain Pro 5 software, and Digikeijs equipment. Digikeijs seem to be the best off the shelf price per feedback/dcc decoders. Wouldn't touch Train Controller though, especially as they make you use a USB key to start the program, every time you want to use it. Lose or break the USB key... bye bye 930 dollars... I heard they are VERY difficult to get replacements for.

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

I really can’t comment, as I’ve only used a different system.

[@jolliemark6294]

Well Charlie, you make a good point it's not for everyone, while it all sounds great tho have your train running automatically , I think I'll stick to running the myself. I still want to have a signal system but I want to run the trains myself. But you did make the point to not limit yourself and think ahead. You point about the difference in price is like you said, appalling. Thanks so much for your helpful advice 👍👍👍👍😀

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

Thanks JO, it’s great to have you onside.

[@WirenwoodModelRailway]

Marvellous and inspiring, thank you. I'm a programmer by trade and geek by personality so this is all very much up my street. I'm on the process of building a new layout now and am very much focusing on the tech, or planning for it anyway. Likely to go down the Arduino /infrared / current detection / RFID / JMRI route. I love the idea of providing the layout with a little AI, in order to give it the capacity to make decisions on routes and speed based on presence of other trains. This video demonstrates the possibilities in that regard very well, thank you. Just embarking on my second watch in a row 😂.

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

I’m so pleased that you find the video interesting. Regards Charlie

[@steveinanglia4185]

Much to think about when I start building my next layout. Great video.

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

Thanks Steve I’m so pleased that you found it useful. Regards Charlie

[@keaganwright124]

Thanks for another great informative video Charlie, you've answered all my questions and demystified it for me, I'm an IT guy so I now understand how the computer side of it works quite well! I'm planning a small layout but I might provision block detection for the main line so I could automate that and "Play" with the shunting part. The layout is being planned with expansion in mind when I buy a house (Small room!) Thanks again!

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

I’m so pleased that you found it interesting KW. Regards Charlie.

[@grahamsimpson3186]

Hi, Another great video. All you videos are very good and interesting. You always give clear explanations in everything you do.

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

That’s very kind of you to say so Graham.

[@timsully8958]

Thanks for that Charlie. A friend of mine suggested i-Trains was a good way to go when I eventually come out of the age of the dinosaurs and go DCC, so your info has come in rather handy. Amazing how these things escalate, but then I guess in our hobby the initial cost is always the top of a bloody huge iceberg! 🧊 I like the idea of protecting junctions like that. A friend of mine “back n the day” had a rather crude yet clever system on DC using diodes that slowed trains at signals if they were red, and this I suppose is the slightly more sophisticated DCC equivalent of that 🤔 Thanks again mate, great stuff as ever 👍🍻🍀

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

Great comment Tim. I’m so pleased that you enjoyed it.

[@leestoddart7014]

As ever, a fascinating video, thanks Charlie

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

Thanks Lee, I’m so pleased that you found it interesting. Rest assured between videos I am cracking on with the lower levels. Regards Charlie

[@markloosemore1444]

Hi Charlie, Thank you for a very informative video. Certainly a good help to point me in the direction of itrain. Good to know that advice given by dcc train automation. I will certainly be entering the world of block detection. Once again a big thank you. All the best Mark

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

I’m so pleased that you found video useful Mark.

[@ModelRailroadTechniques]

Great Video Charlie. PS I use Roco Z21 with TrainController Gold. I use a mixture of Liffinski Datem Technica, Roco and Digikeijs products. Kind Regards Daz

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

Thanks Daz, most enlightening.

[@bobstrainroom]

My extensive DC/analog layout uses CTI-Electronics hardware with part of the layout using RCI hardware (no longer being produced). Both are fully compatable with Traincontroller Gold with no problems. For those not wishing to do DCC then CTI is one way to go although some users struggled to get it working the way they wanted.

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

An interesting option Bob, thank you, regards Charlie

[@NQY-flyer]

As usual Charlie a fantastic presentation Block detection is probably not something I’d want going down the line. But each to their own👍

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

Thanks Kevin, but as you say it’s not for everyone. Regards Charlie

[@davidhowes5403]

Another fascinating video Charlie - thanks. Like yourself I am astounded by the current cost of controller software. Clearly those of the railway modelling fraternity (or sorority in this equal-opportunity world) with deeper pockets than I, no doubt keep these software developers going. You mentioned JMRI, which as you say may not be the easiest to master, nevertheless whilst it may have a steeper learning curve. the effort may be worth it given its free cost. As a group of hobbyists we all have different skills and focusses for what we are prepared to take on - some of us like painting detail, others its modelling buildings, for some its automation, etc. Your focus on off the shelf electronic products, whilst carrying a commensurate price tag (even when bought off second-hand off eBay) illustrates where your focus is, what you are comfortable with doing, and what you are prepared to put hand in pocket for. I'm not suggesting you should change your approach, but like most things in life there are options if one is aware of them. Accordingly, with only moderate soldering skills, it is entirely possible for one to build one's own electronic boards if one has a mind to. I have built 2-channel DCC block current detectors at a cost of ~£3.60 each (I source my own components) but available as a kit of parts for £6.80. One still needs an interface device to monitor the current detectors (kit cost £14.29 for a 16-channel device, though the channels can be used on a mix and match basis for current detectors, spot detectors, relay switching, servo control of semaphore signals or points, or LED lighting) and a computer interface board to link all the interface boards to the computer/JMRI (£10.37 as a kit of parts). Such boards/kits (and many more) are available to members of the Model Electronic Railway Group - MERG - whose website, forum and regional area groups provides a wealth of advice and support to railway modellers prepared to invest in an understanding of such electronics. Please forgive the advertisement, but I feel it important that your subscribers realise that such automation/control aspects of railway modelling don't necessarily come with such a high price tag.

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

An excellent comments David. I had tried to emphasise that money isn’t everything in block detection was remembering that most people will not have the skills or inclination to build from scratch. Regards Charlie

[@ernsta.vahlbruch6191]

Thank you Charlie or making tis topic so approahable. Well done. I tripped across the MERG folks about two years ago, and have ordered and built a number of their kits, which are a delight to build, with exhaustive and comprehensive instructions. With a little practice, anyone an do this. While there is not much video available to the public, without becoming a member of MERG, one can get a taste of the possibilities from Rob at Little Wickett on KZbin. The cost of the kits is extraordinarily low for the value, and the knowledge gained along the way is priceless. I'm hooked!

[@TATICMOOR]

Fascinating, Educational, Intuitive, and very well explained video on wiring, connecting, detecting, hardware to software testing Block Detection on CMR. This equals to a very large (depending on your layout size) Gulp and WTF moment, LOL. Though seeing it all in action leaves a impressed WOW expression on my face. Deep pockets and / or fat wallets are needed to go this far with DCC. A wonderful film made by you Charlie about the subject of Block Detection and what is involved. Including the eye watering prices it could set you back for ones layout, as an example CMR must have cost you an early equity release or a second house mortgage, LOL.

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

A very interesting comment John, not far from the truth! Regards Charlie

[@TATICMOOR]

@@ChadwickModelRailway What a way to squander ones retirement funds, LOL.

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

The kids would only waste it anyway!

[@TATICMOOR]

@@ChadwickModelRailway True, you may as well spent it on yourself, you worked for it in the first place, LOL.

[@jerryugland2432]

Much to look forward to eventually.

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

Great to have you on-board Jerry. Regards Charlie

[@little_britain]

Just starting with MERG current detectors, DCC-EX, JMRI and C/MRI.

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

Good luck little Britain, that stuff makes my brain hurt. Regards, Charlie.

[@dhdove]

27.00 “And there we have it - easy” Ha ha. Great explanation Charlie, I think I almost understand it but it’s not for me, I’ll just play trains!

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

And I can’t say that I blame you either! Regards Charlie

[@iannelson6323]

Great series - JMRI does take time to do but is great and very very flexible.

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

Thanks Ian, regards Charlie

[@rolfkeijzernet5831]

Always enjoying your videos. I use the DR4088 LN/CS (LocoNet/ Current Sensing) from digikeijs as mentioned in your video. Since this is a loconet device, you can mix these devices with digitrax ones in your Loconet string. So, also if you are already using digitrax and want to expand, you can use the much cheeper but high quality digikeijs products.

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

Great comment Rolf. Regards Charlie.

[@richardbarton7017]

Hi Charlie, excellent as always. I use Digikeijs sensors and interface, with Itrain on the PC. I find them excellent. I had to return one Digikeijs sensor because it failed, but it was replaced without charge. By the way, I live not far from West Camel - if you want to have a look at a (very much in progress) layout and see how Digikeijs/Itrain work, you're welcome. Richard

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

That’s very tempting Richard. Can you email me at chadwickmodelrailway @ gmail .com

[@davidccostin]

@@ChadwickModelRailway I would be interested in how you felt the two systems compared / varied.

[@TheSonofruss]

Very interesting if I ever get a layout built I should revisit this one

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

It is an interesting concept. Regards Charlie

[@onnomulder9775]

Awesome video Charlie. Thanks for sharing. Cheers Onno.

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

Here to please Onno.

[@TheShedHobbyist]

Great video. Bit of a steep learning curve but if handy with a soldering iron MERG and JMRI is a cost effective route into automation. The member forum is full of useful advice and for me the annual membership has paid for itself multiple times over.

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

That’s great news Jamie. Regards Charlie

[@bigbear333uk1]

Hi Charlie great video as usual. I use JMRI and MERG components Alright I have to make up the boards but that is fun on its own And i have not had a failure yet and I have not spent probably £150 total on powering up my layout thats usb interface control board for the whole system a 10amp booster board quite a few servo driver boards for signals and turnouts all these are BUS controlled. So i`m pleased with that. I chose this option because of the silly prices commercial systems were charging .

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

That’s great Kevin, at least you have pleasure in your progress. Sometimes that’s not the case!

[@bigbear333uk1]

@@ChadwickModelRailway thanks for the reply

[@glenshielrailway5696]

Great video as always, Charlie. Brilliantly informative. I've seen on one of the systems you don't need to have two sensors for each block as long as you have current draw from the last set of wheels in a rake, be it a DBSO, a coach or wagon with a fitted tail lamp or simply a small resistor wired to some wheel pickups, anything that draws current.... Thanks, Bachmann for deciding to make the wheels on your Highlander rake plastic. Really appreciate that... As the locomotive enters a stop block, a station platform for example, it will begin to slow to a crawl speed, rates and speeds customizable in the system settings, like CVs but simpler, and will then stop automatically when the last set of wheels on its rake clears the previous block. No need for a second sensor. You don't even have to tell the system how long the train or length of track is. Seems like a hell of a cost-cutting measure when you consider the price of all the different modules involved. For the life of me I can't remember what system that is (possibly iTrain as I do remember giving that one some serious thought) but maybe someone else can fill in that gap for us. If you're still reading I wonder if you'll partake in a challenge I've set out for myself; I want to fit pickups to a Bachmann / Graham Farish coach, BSK, BG, GUV, etc, and fit a simple decoder inside to operate a lightbar via DCC. Easy up to now, yes? Here's the challenge; I want that one decoder to control the interior lights of an entire rake of seven coaches. This would involve, somehow, passing power from one light bar to the next without having permanent connections between the coaches, so we can mix and match them at will. I've even considered contacting some 3D printer owners to see if they can make some NEM couplings that can house a micro two-pin plug as I haven't seen any couplings with power connections on the market, at least in N Gauge which is what I model. Frankly I can't believe this gap in the market even exists! The idea being that power is picked up via the wheels of our BSK, up to a decoder, in to a lightbar and then down to the couplings and in to the next coach and so on, effectively wiring up a full rake of coaches in series powered by just one. Of course Dapol coaches do come with wheel pickups and lightbar plugs fitted as standard so the process becomes even simpler with those, all we need there are the couplings and to redirect the wiring. I also know that Dapol do in fact have power-transferring couplings fitted to their 142 Pacers, as I have one, so why not something similar that plugs in to an NEM pocket with some contacts for the coaches? It baffles me! Could make for an interesting fiddly project for you! All the best. Mike.

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

A great comment Mike. I do understand the problem with coaching stock, especially when they are laid up and the lights are still on!

[@Linleys]

Fascinating Charlie. I loved the bit-by-bit nature of how you explained it all. Block Sections help my garden railway work but I have developed a totally different approach to train control and stayed clear of the DCC and computer combo. There seems to be several similar systems on the market and I was initially tempted by the clever Megapoints control system and the Digitrax units, but wanted to base my control control focus totally differently. I have developed my own DLC (Decentralised Logic Control) system for my railway and have enjoyed the whole development part of the project too. Thanks for another great video, W :)

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

I’m so pleased that you found it interesting W. Good luck with your layout, regards Charlie

[@Accessibility-Track-Chris-Law]

As requested... Digitrax and Train Controller Silver. I'm just starting out with it so this is very helpful. I'm also using transponding to help with the automation in hidden sidings.

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

Can you explain how are you achieve the transponding please. And could you do this in a fresh comment because it will be much easier to find. Regards Charlie

[@alancope9962]

Yet another brilliant video Charlie, I love all this stuff on block detection as looking online everyone seems to over complicate it.

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

Thanks Alan, regards Charlie.

[@MalcolmCrabbe]

Charley, that was by far one of the most informative video on what involved in block detection that explained it in simple terms. I too can't understand the difference in pricing of the software for UK customers, especially if it's delivered electronically as is most software these days. I was also shocked at the cost of the BD168 breakout board. £40 is a lot for a PCB with some terminal blocks. It could sell for £20 and there would still be a health profit in it. One thing for certain, automation on this level isn't cheap ! - Thanks for your transparency in listing the cost involved, and for producing such a great video, with clear demonstrations.

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

Thanks Malcolm, I’m so pleased you found it interesting. Regards Charlie

[@BearsTrains]

Hello Charlie. I have been installing BD using an Ecosdetector connected to my Ecoss. Pretty easy setup. I use Traincontroller Bronze that cost the "world" price of $154USD and the detector block cost about $250 AUD (136 quid). If I need more than 16 blocks (most likely) I will need to purchase an "interface" unit that allows the connection of 4 detector units . No daisy chaining unfortunately

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

Yes BT, it can be pricey.

[@brenthopley874]

Hi There Charlie. While I usually watch your clips as you produce them, one or two such as this one slipped by so I've just caught up this morning over a coffee (well actually two large coffees!). With an avionics (Radar) background I get the gubbins part of this however, two friends headed down this path (using Digitrax which I also have) and I have to say it left me a little cold as they both had a number of issues which affected our regular operating sessions while they were overcome. I found this clip very useful in better understanding the physical hardware aspects of what I'd have to say is a fascinating but rather complex aspect of the hobby. So thanks for taking the time to share the findings of your hard yards in this area. Not sure I'll head down this part predominately given the cost at this time, but I'm warmer to the idea than I was two coffees ago! All the best for Christmas, stay safe and keep well, BRgds Brent

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

Thanks Brent, I’m so pleased that you find the channel interesting. I do understand that Digitrax isn’t everyone’s cup of tea and the manuals are dreadful! Regards Charlie.

[@Rob-bl5ik]

another great video Charlie you made it very easy to understand. i use Digitrax and Train Controller v9 silver. I find the Digitrax kit easy to setup and use and the Train Controller takes time to setup but once configure it great, for my layout around my office.

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

It can be a difficult mountain to climb Rob, but as you say once it’s set up it is reasonably stable. Regards Charlie

[@Millsbritish4x4]

Finally managed to dip a toe into this arena, as an experiment I did try to hook up a point to a BDL168 and it's very hard for the detection to pick up the current draw in time. Even crawling at 1 step doesn't yield a detection event! Charlie would you consider doing more video's on this topic.. or even tutorials on basic setup, drawing plans to getting started!

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

I’m sure if you check out my back catalogue, I have done several videos on blocked detection. However, I do not include my points within blocks. Regards, Charlie.

[@paulderham8172]

Great video as always Charlie. :-) I only have a small layout but I have fitted block detection for the 'can I do it' interest. My shortest block is only 16" so IR sensors are used to stop the loco before the buffers. I am using MERG hardware, for the block detection hooked up to an Arduino running DCC++, another Arduino is hooked up to the servo driven points and the whole layout will be run from JMRI. No problems with what I have art up at the moment, although JMRI does have a steep learning curve. Shout out must go to Rob at Little Wicket Railway for his videos which helped me get started on the Arduinos.

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

Great comment Paul, and good luck with your project. Regards Charlie

[@silverwellshouse]

All good stuff. I bought Digikeijs kit before I started laying track. (Perhaps I was thinking of investing before Brexit kicked in). Now laid main level, intending to be DCC using Digikeijs block detection and command centre. The upper level will be DC for my old Triang stuff hence no block detection, with an isolated up and down rails between the 2...should be fun! I admit to struggling with point motor control system, and might run that on DC until the rest is working. A 500 page instruction manual....same size as the manual for my Volvo XC90!! Thank goodness I havekept a handful of lever arch binders!!!

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

Great comment Andy, and I’m sure that your project will bring great rewards. Regards Charlie

[@VideosfromNH]

I love the geeky wiring/automation stuff. I'm going the Digitrax/JMRI on Raspberry Pi route. I designed the layout in AnyRail and will be importing the diagram into JMRI. Just finished getting the track put down and ran some trains on it to verify no derails. The wiring has been set up for block detection over 3 Digitrax bld168s. My computer is connected to a Digitrax pr3. I'm hoping to get my first automated run in a week or two. Then I'll be setting up signals going through a Digitrax SE8C.

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

Great comment and I’ll be interested in how you get on with the SE8C.

[@willp358]

Really interesting and enjoyable vid Charlie. You never cease to amaze me with your well thought out and presented vids. Block detection is a very large subject and you gave a really down to earth view of it which gave good understanding. Thanks..

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

I’m so pleased that you enjoyed it Will.

[@paulredding5864]

After watching this and much research Charlie, based on the cost and complexity I have decided to keep it simple. I like the Blockdetection modules you have shown before and will use these for my Eckon signal kits. For my Ratio semaphores, I will use the multicontroller from megapoints.com as they have a great prototypical arm bounce and second pull on the arm. I appreciate it doesnt allow automatic running but it's fine as I have sepearte loops and with DCC can run the station and shunting/yards seperately. As you say, its horses for courses. Great videos, keep up the good work

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

I'm so pleased that you enjoyed it Paul. Stay safe. Regards Charlie

[@peterkazmierczak7273]

A very informative introduction to block detection, Charlie. I'm sure many will find it very valuable. Me? I'll just stick with my couple of wires to power the (DC) track and push-rods to control the turnouts...

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

If it works for you Peter, and keep going with it mate. Regards Charlie.

[@jedlahaye4765]

Hi Charlie, I watched your video with much fascination, I have a total DC layout and have block detection that runs my signals,points and some other small things, I use a very simple transistor current detector circuit and never fails, your system seems very expensive to me, being I am not computer savvy, thanks for a great video from down under in Wairoa New Zealand

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

I’m so pleased that you enjoyed it Jed.

[@waynemeakin]

I use the Roco z21 in conjunction with the app and also a wlanmaus. I am designing a new layout for after I move house and I'm considering incorporating block detection so this video is very useful. Thanks

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

Thanks Wayne, I’m so pleased that you found it useful.

[@charlesrussell8137]

Hi. I had a look at the different prices of Train Controller and I think that the UK price is derived something like this: There are prices within the EU and outside the EU. Obviously the UK is now outside the EU, so the outside EU price of $699 is applied. Unlike most other countries in the world the UK also requires the supplier to register and account for UK VAT to the UK authorities, and to provide customs clearance documents which previously were not required. This is not necessarily the case in some other countries (for example the various US states only require sales tax to be added by a vendor who meets certain nexus criteria of physical presence , sales volumes etc). If you add a $75 customs clearance handling charge for the UK you get to $774, add 20% VAT and you get near enough to $930. Similar logic works for silver version. C'est la vie.

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

Great comment Charles, however I have my doubts. Regards Charlie