Analytical Content and Why Top Players are Bad at it

[@JovinusSSB]

I don't usually ask for my stuff to be shared around, but I would like to ask for people to share this if they feel strongly about making sure there's good resources within our communities! There's been a worrying trend of all analytical content just being streamed and if we can make any small push to making things more digestible for new players then I think it's worthwhile :)

[@KKCTheKid]

This is unfortunately pretty true. I main sheik so I watched all of Void's 2 hour long guide on her, and can confidently say I zoned out not 10 minutes into the thing after a ramble about IDJ combos being optimal for 20%, compared to ftilt x2 -> upair strings. I improved my Sheik more with Apolotion's greninja guides, due to their digestibility and presentation. Love watching Void play, but a good player =/= a good teacher.

[@JovinusSSB]

That is absolutely the case :) there's not many top player resources on Lucario so I ended up making my own for others haha. If you're looking for good sheik content check out Frenzy Light, they're your go to for good sheikl stuff :)

[@Masonomace]

Very clear video for sure. It baffles me that high level players don't have high output of quality into their content. I'm also super stoked you referenced me! It's an honor that my videos make anyone enthralled and engaged with any interest at all. ...thank you. So much.

[@JovinusSSB]

Of course! I find your serious stuff engaging! It helps that i'm one of the 20 people who play Lucario but still ;) I would like to see a bigger push in better quality content coming from the best! All us little folk can do is try and cause some waves and see what happens haha

[@GimR]

Top players have to balance training, going to events, and being content creators. So, unless they have a good editor and can naturally create a good structure while recording its gonna be rough unless they are willing to put in a lot of work. Regarding presentation, i think it isn't necessary. Although my videos' structure and editing are good, i rarely use any special effects or anything to spice it up as it isn't super necessary. If your video is engaging people are gonna want to watch.

[@JovinusSSB]

That's pretty much my thoughts exactly. Being good with creating useful and engaging analysis is a completely different skillset to being a top player competitively. Being one doesn't make you automatically become the other. Also love your work too! Was never expecting a bigger channel like yours to appear haha one day I'll be able to travel to the US for some majors, it was going to be last year but we all know what happened!

[@Bee-N64]

I think presentation matters at least a little in pure accessibility. I know I've ended up rewinding good guides just to hear again what move or tech or whatever was mentioned, but a little graphic or text on screen helps with that. Super minor stuff but it's interesting how it can help. That sort of nuanced editing though is far harder to manage, especially as you said when someone is pressed for time between streaming, competing, training, etc I can't imagine how hard it is to balance all of that, then spend an extra day or more editing bare streams into something concise...

[@JovinusSSB]

@@Bee-N64 For sure, it's difficult work and it's a skillset that needs to be learned just like anything else in life. Having an understanding of what makes a good viewing experience and then having the practical skillset to achieve it through editing isn't easy. People get paid at a premium to do that kind of stuff for the biggest corporations on the planet! It is possible to do analysis during a stream, but it's so hard. You need to not only be 100% articulate with everything you're saying. You need to know how to make it seem interesting and not go into too much depth to the point where the original point of why you're making the comments is lost I feel. You would never catch me analysing any of my VODs or other Lucario vods during a stream haha, I just wouldn't be happy with how it would turn out

[@GimR]

@@Bee-N64 yeah, I meant more so the cool editing etc. Totally agree with ya on having to go backwards. I actually time out listening to myself in my own videos by clearing my mind, playing it back, and then stopping right when my mind registers what's being said / shown. This way people don't have to pause the vid or go backwards.

[@GimR]

@@JovinusSSB ​ @Jovinus yo! NP man. Def subscribing! ope to see ya one day. Where do you reside?

[@MannyForReal]

I'm glad you included many content creators here since it'll helps me see what these other channels do. Also I find a lot of smaller channels do a lot of great content that's more analytical/technical smash content.

[@MagnificentCreature]

This video speaks facts. I love the points it brings across and the way it does so. An unexpected video from your channel, but a very much welcome one. Hope you can get your video out to your intended audiences

[@moowee]

I think you kinda hit the nail on the head when talking about streaming at the end. A lot of top figureheads definitely have the ability to make well-paced guides that are easy to digest at all levels (especially when you consider that bigger, sponsored players will often hire dedicated editors for their videos), but streaming is such a large time commitment/money maker for so many of these people that spending time on a guide like that isn't worth the effort. Making guides that are effectively just stream highlights benefits them the same way any other highlight video would - they don't have to spend extra time outside of streaming and can make a profit on both the stream and the eventual video upload. I'd love to see proper video guides and analytical content from the top, but I just don't think it's feasible when most FGC figures have to be entertainers/personalities first and professional esports players second to financially sustain their careers.

[@JovinusSSB]

That's pretty much the sad truth of it yeah :/ Back when I was learning fighters the idea of twitch/esports/being a personality was never something anyone even thought about! So alot of the greats spent their time on making valuable resources for the games they were passionate about if they had the time to do so. If a top player were to make something like that then it would be at a financial/time cost to them most likely

[@CharacterCrisisTV]

Great analysis man. Subbed. Furthermore its painful spending a week plus on one video, just for it to not get pushed by the algorithm then seeing a video with 0 to no effort on the same topic garner wayyyyyy more views. It's frustrating as hell, but nevertheless that is the game. But don't worry we too will get to experience HBox pop off one of these days! Cheers and keep it up! And you're a FAUST PLAYER??? let's go. I have Faust guides I'm cooking up. Maybe we can collab on something

[@JovinusSSB]

I understand that pain completely, I work full time so it takes quite a long time for me to get anything out of the door. I end up scrapping quite a few projects over and over since I don't want to dip my standards haha You're honestly one of the best channels i've seen btw! My jaw drops whenever I see one of your guides pop up for smash of GGST! And for sure! I'm always happy to collab, I'd love to do more with the madman at somepoint :P

[@actuallynotsteve]

Have a sub man. Do you think these players burn out because their eSports orgs make them upload daily? It seems like Marss specifically has really burned the fuck out since going hardcore with Panda and having to do all their gimmick content.

[@JovinusSSB]

If I were to give me honest answer I would so "Oh absolutely!" I work full time as a programmer outside of this and if I were to upload more than once every two weeks I would be burned out in months. Writing the scripts and refining the drafts down takes time. Getting footage is an absolute chore. The actual editing is the most fun part of the entire process but it's still lengthy. Overall it takes an amateur like me about 16 hours for every 10 minutes on this channel. Just try to imagine being Marss here. You're streaming 8+ hours almost every day, travelling to compete ontop of having to meet panda's requirements weekly! Atleast when i'm making stuff for ultimate I only ever see ultimate during that process of making a video. The poor guys are living and breathing the same game daily. They probably don't want to even think about dedicating time into getting specific footage with the amount that they record!

[@Apocralyph]

Top player analysis/guides are just part of the basic content loop of stream -> upload highlights to youtube -> repeat. There isn't really any more effort put into it than "Falco uptilt-bair compilation" (shoutouts to Larry, awesome video btw) and they are not seriously educational content by any means. That is not to say you can't get anything out of it, but it's mostly just gonna be 1-2 ideas that you can keep in mind. But tying it back to Fiction's post: Analytical content can do extremely well. Izaw's guides have hundreds of thousands of views. Although I imagine there is way less of an audience for that kinda thing in Melee.

[@JovinusSSB]

It could be a possibility that it may not be as popular for melee as it is currently for ultimate just due to the fact that resourceful content has been done years back for melee. Channels like SSBM Tutorials have been around for much longer and so has their playerbase, so alot of concepts might already just be ingrained in most of their playerbase. The first point is sadly the truth I think too. It's just a part of their daily loop being twitch streamers more than anything!

[@shitposter2790]

This is a great video, I will say I thought the music from the intro to just before the "the art of cloud vs m2k video" was too loud compared to your voice. Could just be personal preference but I figured I'd share with you anyways, good luck with the channel!

[@JovinusSSB]

That's absolutely fair and is a possibility! When edited everything sounded fine on my end but audio is always awkward between each setup. I'll try and make things a bit lower than I usually do in the future :)

[@Bee-N64]

Absolutely top quality video. I'm subbed to all of the top players content creators you mentioned, and the comparison between their charcater guides and other more dedicated guides are so clear. Digestabilty is key When it's hard to differentiate an analysis video or character guide from any other stream or video, it's clearly done wrong

[@JovinusSSB]

Digestibility is so, so important! I was pretty motivated to get this little thought piece out while the discussions on analytical content is still fresh. Thanks for watching this :)

[@Dynamus21]

I wouldn't say that the laziness stops at analytical content when it comes to top players. As much I respect MKleo, his videos bored me to tears. Larry Lurr is a coin toss to whether they will be good or not and that is what I believe to be the worst vs the best. Maybe my opinion is needlessly harsh, but it's something I can't get past.

[@JovinusSSB]

I understand that completely. It doesn't take too much to make a video that is engaging to people, it's just a matter of having some care into what you're doing. Some people are also just not cut out for making content and that's completely ok! We all have different skillsets

[@actuallynotsteve]

They both have extremely, extremely boring videos. Ever since most of these top players moved to a daily upload model the quality of their content has gone off the deep end. The videos all feel forced and you can tell that they don't want to be making them. Marss phones it in too, but manages to be at least watchable because of clever editing and more charisma in general. Tweek's uploads used to be him silently playing Ultimate and saying maybe one sentence in-between matches.

[@Dynamus21]

@@actuallynotsteve The editor for Marss is the MVP for all of his videos. His vids would be unwatchable without him.

[@actuallynotsteve]

@@Dynamus21 Definitely, it's unreal how much better the videos are because of the edits

[@luckyumbasa417]

On the other hand of edited content, I find the ADHD cuts packed with mildly relevant b roll footage in the first half of your video to be detrimental to digesting to what youre saying and actually engaging my brain. The necrodancer bgm is also way too loud. I know people want to capture the tiktok attention span but god damn. I agree with your points about packaging the content mattering or how its exponentially improved with some effort in post. That doesnt mean low effort content doesnt yield a higher return though. A smaller youtuber may get more traction with an well-made instructional video that has broad appeal than any hot take, but its not the same for someone with a more established expertise and viewership. Does that mean you have take the low effort option, no, but I get the frustration. KZbin monetization isnt doing creators any favors here. I dont think its fair to categorically expect quality presentation just because someone is a top player who streams. Those skills dont transfer to being good at making an edited video, and if making videos isnt their focus, I dont blame them for spending the tens to hundreds of hours great edited content can take. Frankly if someone wants to make an intended for YT stream highlight Im just glad if they have a piece of paper with an outline written on it and turn off notifications.

[@mikeobrien9024]

I don't disagree with your argument, but I do find this video hypocritical in its delivery. It feels meandering, excessively long, and guilty of self-indulgent pacing. I think you easily could have made the same core arguments with a handful of strong demonstrations in a few minutes or so.

[@JovinusSSB]

I would be interested to hear more on why you believe the delivery is hypocritical here :) The main reason I made this was due to the recent discussions on twitter about the subject, I also personally felt that the pacing was fine as well for the most part. For a small thought-piece made to bring discussion into the fgc/smash scenes I think it does exactly what it needs to. As for the indulgence i'd rather talk badly of my own work rather than others, it's not meant to attack the current effort of what people make but to help spark the discussion and maybe bring change to analytical content for the better. I'd like to hear your why's on the points above. I always strive to do better when possible and seeing my newest videos from the oldest should show that to anyone watching haha