Ancient Grain Measure?

[@the_newt_nest]

I wake up, I see news that makes me upset. I open KZbin, I see ancient grain measure. I am healed.

[@Crust3d]

I have no connection to this field but it is very interesting and insightful to see your thought process as you go along. Rather than hearing just the conclusion of what something is thought to be, we get brought along the journey of why.

[@carpetfire3060]

You're a really great instructor as well. Feels like a free masters education.

[@CypressPunk34]

i find myself fascinated by the technicalities of grain measurement. All i can think about is the petty arguments that invariably would break out over whether the portion was fairly measured or properly recorded

[@SeverusFelix]

"No no no you gotta pack it like THIS" People never change.

[@artifactuallyspeaking]

I agree, the kind of discussions and/or haggling that went on must have been interesting. And I'm also interested in the amount of corruption that occurred, from using false weights and measures to over-charging interest. Smuggling, bribery, and embezzlement all occurred even at this early period. Any time there is a system, there are people trying to cheat that system or complaining that it has been cheated. I'm thinking about writing a book on corruption in the ancient world.

[@SeverusFelix]

@@artifactuallyspeaking That's a very cool idea, and probably a lot better for your health than writing about corruption in the modern world.

[@CatApocalypse]

Thank you for sharing this process and project with us!

[@verdantpulse5185]

The shape of the vessel lends itself to lapping--i.e. grinding against an abrasive surface. The way to get an accurate volume would be to make and fire it to slightly oversize. Then grind one or both ends until the volume was the exact measure. Check the ends for evidence of grinding post-firing.

[@rulthariuz]

Dr. Hafford, I seen your response to Milo’s video, and I found your videos very thoughtful and informative. You have earned another subscriber good sir, and I look forward to seeing more of your videos!

[@theviperiscalling]

is modern barley corn a different size/shape to corn found at the site(s)?

[@artifactuallyspeaking]

We typically don't find grain preserved in the archaeological record. When we do, it has preserved because it was charred. The charred ancient grains are very similar to modern barley, but they will have altered somewhat in the burning process.

[@richardvanasse9287]

I wonder if the bottom is open because it might be easier to make a standard size container if it has no bottom. You could roll a sheet of clay around a cylinder mold. If it had a bottom, it would probably be filleted to the side wall. That fillet would be hard to make precisely I think. Great videos! Keep up the good work.

[@Bildgesmythe]

Makes sense. It would be faster to measure that way than dumping if you were doling out grain to many people.

[@daijoboukuma]

One possibility is this was a "dedicated" or proprietary unit of measure for temple offerings, as per the location found. For example, this could be 1.3 sila in total volume.

[@pattheplanter]

Strickle is from Old English and probably a Germanic root. Hostorium was the Latin name for a strickle. The Greeks had 6 different words for a strickle. Barley-corn was a measure of length from at least the 10th to 19th centuries in Britain. The length rather than the width. Either a quarter or a third of an inch. They also had the poppy seed, which was a quarter or a fifth of a barley-corn. They had at least three variations, so a poppy seed was either one 12th, one 15th or one 20th of an inch. I am not sure if there was also one 16th of an inch. The weights of gold and jewels have been measured with various seeds, including the carob seed which gave us the name carat. Also the poisonous gunj (Abrus precatorius) and thorla gunj (Adenanthera pavonina).

[@przemysawkrzekobrzegoszczy6332]

Is it known how these measurements related to their products? For example would the volume of manufactured foodstuffs, say bread or beer, for commercial sale be influenced by the volume of their measurements, or were these measurements a result of the ideal amounts of the desired foodstuffs? I wonder how much insight these measurements can give into the cooking habits of the people who used them.

[@mrb9825]

Just discovered your channel and am really enjoying it. Brings a different dimension to thinking about ancient civilizations as filled with real people with ordinary livea

[@JohnDeerest]

Would you be interested in covering larger areas of history, such as Shulgis reighn (mentioned here) and other rulers around his time? I think it would be interesting to hear about these areas which arent really covered in popular media from someone both knowledgeable and personable as you semi-summarized in a video. I just think thats something that would be really popular with people such as me ( unknowledgeable and unpersonable 😂)

[@Divig]

It would be really interesting to see how much grain the different clay tubes that were found under that floor contains. Is it about the same or not?

[@artifactuallyspeaking]

I just got back from London where I went to the British Museum Middle East Study Room and measured two of the other cylinders that were found under this floor. Both of them have some breakage, so my numbers aren't exact, but one was rather smaller than the other. One of them held about 7.3 liters, the other about 7.9.

[@Divig]

So one of them was about the same as "your" cylinder, but not the other? Still a plausible hypothesis then, but not without problems. I hope we get a follow-up video on this. :) It is interesting to see how you think about these measurements, from the mass produced clay bowls to these (possibly) more regulated ones.

[@wumbojet]

This is extremely interesting and it does make a lot of sense.

[@Parmenza]

Im wondering if theres a difference between the size of ancient and modern grains. Id assume that selective breeding would change the corns over time and maybe place. Are there examples of preserved grains that show us how that grain was different from today? And would the size of grain affect how tightly they could be packed, and thus how much mass of grain fits into a volume?

[@JustInTimeWorlds]

Thank you :D I adore your videos.

[@JorgeStolfi]

For measuring the volume of a vessel, it makes absolutely no difference whether you use barley, lentils, sand, aquarium gravel, styrofoam prills, or lead balls. As long as the stuff packs naturally to a sufficiently constant density (which is the case for all of those), a fixed amount of the stuff will occupy the same volume no matter which vessel you put it in.

[@Finvaara]

I enjoyed watching this video! I hope you can get a bit more grain for a full measurement both with and without the heap on top. I know that's a ton of barley to find a use for, but it seems worthwhile.

[@sebastienmailbox]

Its like a tube of rolled oats! But for barley and made of clay. I am grateful for your interesting content! How many servings of grain would this be, if it were indeed a measuring vessel? How long would it feed a small family unit? I am fond of the idea you proposed of measuring it and then lifting it off a cloth for folks to take on their way. I believe that would save time and labour, creating less mess than pouring it, too.

[@artifactuallyspeaking]

In the earliest records we tend to see 2 sila of grain per day as rations for a male worker, so this would hold 5 days ration payment (if it really is a 10 sila / 1 ban measure). Ration equivalents may have gone up in later times, however, with possibly up to 10 sila per day issued to some people. I'm not sure how long it would feed a family, since the grain would have to be processed into flour / bread, or cooked down into a stew or soup. I think some have calculated the raw caloric value of barley and shown that a liter could potentially supply a person with enough to get through a day, but I suppose that depends on how hard you are working.

[@sebastienmailbox]

As a small man, I feel around 2 cups of whole grain, combined with a few servings of other fibrous fruits, tubers, and leaves, in a day, even if it's full of hard labour, is all I can manage. I can't imagine being able to eat much more than that. That's a lot of filling food they consumed, with lower calories by volume. I looked up some old recipes to get an idea, but they're all vague without amounts. I saw that they made something like a vegetable stew thickened with ground barley, so it wasn't just used as bread or eaten as itself. It was used to make sauces like we use wheat and corn flours. I'm glad we've been reinventing the same meals for thousands of years, with different ingredients/spices. I find it comforting to know we are all so similar, even after all this time. Thank you for the reply! 2 sila seems like a lot to eat in a day for me, but maybe I'm out of the ordinary? Or maybe, since they used it for other things, it makes sense they'd be given enough to be able to diversify a bit, or maybe one family bakes bread while another prepared other elements of a meal, so they could all have a lot of variety like an ancient pot luck party? It sounds hilarious, but also realistic to me. This is all very interesting to think about. I appreciate your expertise and perspective, and your informative response! I am excited for future content. :)

[@jfjoubertquebec]

I'm wondering... measures, do they have to be precise? 100 years ago, people used to use scoops for flour, I guess to weigh it, with a scale, in a second stage. The flour scoops were called "hand" here. Also, this grain measurement tool... it looks heavy. Intriguing! Oh yes... pouring it from the top, from a distance, to get rid of the dust. It would look like pouring Turkish coffee, And you would need a solid base. Thank you for sharing as always!

[@M.M.83-U]

For taxes? Hell yes.

[@kylecassidy3391]

This is the wholesome content I come to the Internet for!!

[@stonedog5547]

I've been thinking about this all day because it prompted a memory...... Many years ago I was watching something about aid workers distributing food (I can't remember exactly where in the world or why they needed to). They had grain poured out on a large tarp and were measuring the allotted ration by scooping the grain with their hands into a large tin with both the ends cut out and resting on a small board, this was filled to overflowing and then patted down before being struck off level with a short flat stick. The measure would then be lifted up on the board and the person collecting their ration would hold a bag or other container underneath before the board was pulled away dumping the grain into the sack. I remember it so clearly because it seemed to be a laborious way of doing the job, thinking about it I realised that using this method there can be no accusations of being cheated. You see the measure being filled, you see that there measure is overfilled and levelled off and then you see that everything that was in the measure falls into your bag.

[@Deqster]

I found you b/c of Milo but stayed because of you, another great one!

[@richardsweeney197]

What if one end of the measuring "platform/base" did not have a wall, you could brush out what excess there was and the heap when leveled off of the measure more easily. Perhaps the measure would be even more accurately done, if you kept your 1 Ban measure more toward the other end from the opening. You could still lay your cloth or reed mat, between the measure and base. That said, you are much more the expert than I, actually, you are an expert, I don’t even qualified to be a novice. It's just a suggestion. Thank you for your videos. They are always enlightening and enjoyable to watch at the same time.

[@veraxis9961]

A thought I had while discussing the issue of shrinkage while firing: If they wanted to make a consistent measure, I wonder if they could have formed the clay around a mandrel of a known size? It might take a little trial and error to make the mandrel the right starting size: say start with a solid cylinder of wood or stone that was a bit oversized, form clay around it, pull out the mandrel then fire the clay (might need to taper the mandrel to make it slide out easily, hence the varying diameter), then shave down the mandrel a bit and make another clay cylinder on it, etc. until you got it right, but once you had the mandrel you could presumably use it to make as many copies as you wanted. Perhaps if the standards were produced in a central location they would be inscribed with the name of the king to prove they were official? This theory would only hold if the examples were very consistent in terms of their inside diameters and not varying from piece to piece, though.

[@SeverusFelix]

How similar are ancient and modern barley?

[@greenockscatman]

I disagreed with the previous ration bowl interpretation, but I think you're bang on the money about this being a grain measure.

[@jackdaniel4446]

Thank you for continuing to post these videos; it's intriguing to see the actual process of (re)discovery, an obuilding and testing an hypothesis. If these were really truly grain measures, do you think it likely that there are a large number of them still buried away? is there any evidence of a blank or mould used to make them, so that they mig all be the same/similar size, or are they all and-formed?

[@Aengus42]

UK shoe sizes are still measured using the barleycorn length. And from 1300 to 1824 the inch was defined as "3 barly corns dry and rounde" which meant that you yanks sre still using the barleycorn as a base for your measurement system.

[@LadyMoonweb]

Do you want to know what I think? I think you might be right. Interesting as always :)

[@28lobster28]

I got a fever, and the only cure is more barley! Were their separate measures for emmer/einkorn wheat or was everything barley (or volume) based? I've heard that changing climate + soil salinity forced the Sumerians to grow a greater proportion of barley to wheat, did that have any impacts on measures?

[@tamaraboletus4929]

Came here from GMM - worth a visit. Thanks for speaking artefactually!

[@artifactuallyspeaking]

Thanks! Great to see fellow GMM fans on my channel. Be your Mythical best!

[@evanherk]

Does it have to be10? they used 60 and 12 a lot. could it be a dozen?

[@M.M.83-U]

Very interesting. It bring to mind Lc 6-38

[@jojoecr7626]

These people were geniuses. They started running into challenges that we still face today, like systems and standardisation.

[@stephencowie696]

Was 8 an important number during this time period in Ur?

[@artifactuallyspeaking]

Eight may have been a significant number for them, as it is in China, but of course they wouldn't have known what the liter or the gram was, so they wouldn't know the ratio of their number system to ours and that's where we tend to find the 8 coming up in measurement (80% of a liter, 8.4 grams). Their math was based on 60, so significant numbers were likely part of that base, like 5 and 12, 6 and 10.

[@lastofmygeneration]

I found this to be very fascinating sir! Love your content as always. Also, real men wear pink!

[@mattlawson6029]

I have heard that the Argaric culture produced "remarkably similar" ceramic vessels over space and time, as well as some colorful storytelling as to why. But after watching your video I want to see if they can double as measures....too bad I don't have any of them around to fill up with split peas.

[@regex74]

Thumbs up for "barley party" lol

[@rujerez]

Qué interesante! ❤

[@tomkelley4119]

I’m a little surprised that you perform the experiment on the artifact itself - I would have assumed it would be too brittle to experiment with. Would it be helpful to have 3d scanning and printing capabilities at your university to allow easier recreation of artifacts, or do you believe that would only slow down your studies?

[@artifactuallyspeaking]

It's a very stable artifact that has been assessed by conservation. If it were cracked or in any state of preservation other than ideal, I would not have poured anything into it. The ones at the British Museum are both broken and I have only taken measurements of them to calculate volume. Making a 3D model is best in that case, but to do it well requires good equipment. You can do it with lots of photos, but getting good photos of the interior is difficult. It would be best to use a laser modeling device and a 3D printer to make a copy, but I don't have the budget for that, so I will have to make do with measurements in most cases.

[@tomkelley4119]

@@artifactuallyspeaking It sounds like the laser measuring and printing equipment is coming down in price - hopefully we can start funding archeological research to get you the tools you need!

[@RicoReks]

Thank you for this vid!

[@alangknowles]

Does the bottom show signs of abrasion to bring it to the correct standard volume?

[@halfabee]

What is the use of a measure you can not pick up with its contents in tactic? Fill the measure with grain then what do you do with it?

[@sarahrosen4985]

He says in the video. You would come with a sack or piece of cloth. This was placed flat on top in the centre, filled and lifted. The measure of grain stays on your cloth. You tie it up and off you go.

[@random22026]

All cc1:42 3:10 4:14 to 4:33 4:47to 5:14 😁😁 to 5:57 Wooley 😂⛔ to 6:13 ('AKKADIAN'🙄🙄) to 6:29 6:59 Discovered by...? 14:07

[@gustavgnoettgen]

Grain pipe

[@martinhill9524]

Do it properly mate

[@gustavderkits8433]

Not quite science. I would have brought enough grain to the test and determined the water content and measured it multiple times to get the error bars. You need a grad student.

[@gustavderkits8433]

And maybe this is a six sila container and 1.2 liters per sila.

[@kevint1910]

lol why do academics fail so hard at practical tasks as simple as filling a tube with grain? a person of lesser education would never have assumed that a volume calculated for an object of that sort would be correct.