Ancient Greek Helmets - Response to Metatron on Achilles' helmet in Troy Fall of a City

Ancient Greek Helmets - a video inspired by a comment on Metatron's channel about the helmet worn by the black actor playing Achilles in the BBC's Troy: Fall of a City.
/ scholagladiatoria
Matatron's video: • Black Washing History?...

[@scholagladiatoria]

Hi folks, thanks for watching. Just to reiterate, this is a video about HELMETS. You can kind of tell that by, you know, watching the video. If you want to make passing comments about the BBC series that's fine, but if you come on here *simply* to make an 'edgy' 4Chan outright racist comment, expect to be blocked. There are plenty of places on the internet for you to vent your rage at life, but underneath a video about ancient Greek helmets is not the place.

[@rickedyrektd1895]

thanks for taking your time to civilly and respectfully engage with someone whomst opinion you disagree with, this is what tolerance i-wait you're removing the comments. Oh.

[@avp5964]

Tolerance doesn't mean tolerating everything. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance "Less well known is the paradox of tolerance: Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. - In this formulation, I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be unwise. But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force; for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument; they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols. We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant."

[@Uhlbelk]

If he wanted to "civilly and respectfully engage with someone whomst opinion you disagree with" he would either make a video about that topic, or go to another video that is about that topic. As the author of the video, he gets to decide the topic of discussion.

[@avp5964]

Nice try guy, racists and bigots DO seek to suppress those that disagree with them through intimidation and violence. Those are intolerant people seeking to destroy tolerance, the definition of the paradox.

It is true. That said, Matt chose exactly what he wants, as per the rules of KZbin that you accept when you post a message under a video. There are a lot of places where anyone can express himself under the rules of tolerance. KZbin and generally private corporation's platforms are not those.

[@metatronyt]

Hi Matt! Thank you for the video correction as it lifts a burden off my shoulders, in a sense. Yesterday as soon as I released my video a Greek subscriber sent me some pictures of the Illyrian helmet and I thought "damn it I was wrong!" but the video was already out so I couldn't do much about it and went straight to bed (after 9 hours of editing). I thought about writing a comment in the description about that ( and I think I will) but the fact you corrected me already helps. I honestly didn't know about that helmet so I stand corrected. On a different note though, I still think that helmet should not be Achilles' helmet, so I still think it's too open of a helmet for Achilles, because Homer says that Achilles loans his armour to Patroclus, and that they had planned to hide Patroclus' identity with the helmet. You couldn't possibly hide anybody's identity with an Illyrian helmet. So not a Corinthian or archaic armour for that matter as you say, but something close, possibly somewhat unique to him, like a custom made proto-Corinthian helmet or a still never uncovered version of a mycenean helmet? And besides, Homer says Achilles was exceptionally well armoured to the point of not showing much of his body, so I think that would also mean the face. Moreover, wouldn't the Illyrian be out of place anyways in terms of actual dates? (an honest question) Of course it's still just speculation on a legenday character and I understand the choice of an open helmet is dictated by the need to show the face of the actor to the audience. Cheers! Grazie! Ciao ciao

[@scholagladiatoria]

Hey Raff - yes I totally agree that this type of helmet is WAY too late in date for when the story is supposed to be set. Although it is correct for Homer's own time. But also yes, it doesn't match Homer's description of Achilles' armour at all. Just pointing out that this is in fact based on a type of ancient Greek helmet, even if not of the correct time or type for Achilles himself.

[@Uhlbelk]

In battle you can't see who someone is by their face anyways. That is why commanders wear different armors, funny hats, and ride up high on horse with bannermen and such.

[@00Trademark00]

Interestingly, I've never thought of that but now I wonder why Achilles, who is invulnerable save for one of his heels, would bother wearing that much armour. Sure, it is a story but it makes little sense. He should wear extremely durable and protective sabatons (yes I know they did not exist in the time of Troy or even of Homer) and not much else :) Unless he wants to conceal this weakness of course, which is sort of the only justification for the excessive amount of armour. Incidentally, how often is Patroclus even depicted in movies? The story of Achilles' death makes no sense without him, but I can't recall him in any of the Troy movies (I am not sure which ones I saw though).

[@mtfire2046]

if im not mistaken the movie featuring brad pitt (2004) depicts patroclus as a relative of achilles. He got 2 or 3 sceens and he dies wearing achilles armour.

[@burner27]

I like how polite this community is as a general rule.

[@paweandonisgawralidisdobrz2522]

Achilles has been described to wear so much armour that you could barely see his skin. So open face is kind of wrong

[@Segalmed]

In the case of Achilles it is a key Homeric plot point that he wears a face-concealing helmet.The turning point of the Iliad is the death of Patroklos who disguises himself as Achilles by wearing his armor and helmet in order to deceive the Trojans. Thsi only works because the helmet hides the wearer's face. For about everyone in the epic it does not matter what kind of helmet he wears (it is even implied that people can recognize each other by face) but NOT Achilles. Btw, Roman epics already fall victim to popular imagery and commit prop errors like Hollywood at its best.

[@valadi7698]

The question of course is how literally you should read into Homer's depiction of events when wondering what Achilles would have really worn. The Iliad is commonly considered a work of fiction based on a series of events which presumably took place centuries before. As far as the fiction part goes, it doesn't really matter what Achilles wears. The way fiction goes is that whatever isn't clearly described by the author is up to the reader's (or interpretor's) imagination. So if Homer says it should be face-concealing then anything fitting that description should be fine. To be historically accurate however it certainly can't be a Corinthian, Illyrian, or any other clearly post-Mycenaean equipment. We know the Greeks believed this was a series of events which took place in the Mycenaean time frame. It's very likely Homer himself didn't have an exact idea what he would have worn. Even though he lived much closer to the time frame it still took place long before his presumed lifetime. His description of a face-concealing helmet could be accurate, or it could be artistic license. Nowadays we have some ideas as to what equipment the Mycenaeans might have worn, but it's far from exact. Not enough to have exact historical "accuracy". On the one hand some armour contraptions like the Dendra panoply is quite impressive, but on the other hand it would be quite ludicrous in the eyes of a modern audience to have a supposedly impregnable warrior wear a boar's tusk helmet cap.

[@Segalmed]

In any case it is plot relevant, so it is rather stupid to deviate on this topic from the epic. For certain the makers of the series did not think 'better historically accurate than logically consistent', so whether we follow archaeology or the author, the helmet as presented does not make sense. I think the best film adaptation in the spirit of Homer is still the 1968 miniseries en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%27Odissea It takes liberties with outfits but clearly deliberately so and not in the usual Italian or Hollywood style. It includes many elements usually left out of Homer adaptations* and concentrates on the characters not special effects heavy action scenes. *just to mention one: it puts the journey of Telemachos at the start, so Odysseus himself does not make his entry for about an hour.

[@valadi7698]

True. Although I'm quite sure some conceptual artist can come up with some armour contraption which represents both Homer's description and what we know of the late Mycenaean style. In any case, when it comes to body armour the Mycenaean style has some examples which are very close to Homer's description of a full suit of armour. The later Greek styles which are commonly shown in adaptations typically expose a lot more of the body, even in their heaviest forms. That said, I do wonder whether the general audience wouldn't be utterly confused not seeing Greeks wearing the stereotypical hoplite like style.

[@Segalmed]

I could show you some silent movies there where the natural reaction of a modern audience would be truly WTF! Personally, I love Art Deco Myceneans ;-) Apart from that, take a look at this beauty: kzbin.info/www/bejne/ZprQnGmNpbGsq68

[@stevewatson1640]

Good find.

[@PJDAltamirus0425]

But Metatron quoted Homer in describing Achilles armor and the quote says says that he was covered in so much armor that a person would have difficulty recognizing him. A helmet with such a large facial opening would make it easy to recognize a person.

[@MrBandholm]

The point about the helmet was not so much the historical issue... But the fact that the poem describe the helmet as being closed... It is a pretty important point in regards to the plot, given the lead up to the dual between Hektor and Achilles.

If we go by Illiad, especially the fact that Achilles could have been impersonated, then it suggests that Achilles had some kind of enclosed helmet with large amount of face protection, isn't it?

[@angellara7040]

Jakub Narębski clearly troy was filled with avid masturbaters

[@ronswanson6490]

It has been clear that the actual Myrmidons had Corinthian-style helmets

[@vasilioskosman2789]

I think he was known by total armour package. I think helmet but more or just as much breast plate. The greater warrior the richer the plunder the better his armour. Makes sense I think. I pretty sure their helmets st troy where made from boars teeth not bronze.

[@gold333]

I hate videos like this. The guy clearly has never read the Iliad. Makes a video on “Achilles’ helmet” without once mentioning the word “Mycenaean”. What happened to the horns? Mediocre historian at best. Read up on the Iliad before to claiming any authority. Read Salimbeti to learn.

[@Segalmed]

@@gold333 I just reread Homer and the scene is quite ambiguous . When Patroklos loses his helmet it is described as 'the one with eyeholes' implying it to be face covering. But not a single Trojan mistakes him for Achilles (not even from afar), all calling him by his correct name or that of his father ('the son of...'). The only one expressing hope about a potential ruse is Achilles himself.

[@Wayneburg]

Random zooms create real tension lol

[@WozWozEre]

Wayne Human ah not just me, thought my phone was having a fit.

[@kingpopaul]

I was hoping for the full zoom effect loop ( zoom to pupil -> original state) the one that is used in some movies and music videos.

[@danyoutube7491]

The camera is jealous of Matt commanding the attention, and now seeks to usurp him. I fear it may launch itself at him in future if he doesn't curb this rebellious spirit.

[@brancaleone8895]

indeed 11:26

[@passenger86]

Really adds dramatic effect

[@gabba1gabba1hey]

I cant wait for blonde haired, blue eyed white Shaka Zulu

[@jukahri]

Isn't Shaka Zulu an actual, historical character though?

[@redicebluefire2552]

That would actually be an insult to white people to think whites could be that primitive at that time but would be funny.

[@wisedragon173]

Jukelo ancient Greeks were real historical European/white people. Therefore they including their heroes shouldn't be portrayed by blacks. Achilles was described by the ancient Greeks in their classical text as blond or strawberry blond. Uncle Tom, black Panther, Django are black fictional people and yet white people can't portray them. The double standard and inconsistency are mind boggling.

[@ΣοφοκλήςΤόλε]

@@jukahri just because he isnt proven to exist doesnt mean he didnt. People thought the whole story was fiction ,now they agree troy existed, the trojian war happened, agamemnon probly existed, and we know thesally is a region and achilles was king there so he has no reason to not exist. Nevertheless later kings claimed to be descended from achilles like Alexander the Great.

[@jukahri]

" just because he isnt proven to exist doesnt mean he didnt." You're right, the absence of proof for one thing doesn't change (as far as we know) the nature of reality. But that's hardly a good basis to accept that everything which hasn't been proven is therefore true.

[@demos113]

I'm not seeing any boars tusk helmets here. :-(

[@exploatores]

so it wasn´t a turkey that landed on the helmet and died.

[@youg_z]

Finally someone who knows his classic. I'm crazy about people imagining Corinthian Helmet here ...

[@sugarnads]

Hugo Maureau drives me nuts theyre not wearing anything remotely mycenaen

[@TheAncientAstronomer]

Ancient Greeks weren't black either, therefore not the only problem.

[@wierdalien1]

str81100 ehh

[@TanitAkavirius]

They weren't blond either.

[@jmaitland5709]

@TanitAkavirius Actually in the myths about Achilles it is said that he had long blonde hair.

[@scholagladiatoria]

No, Achilles was clearly not meant to be black. He's described as blonde and was from Thessaly in Greece. Whether that matters or not for a mythology story, I don't really know. Black Ethiopian characters feature in the same stories, but they are different characters. But this video is all about helmets. :-)

[@TheAncientAstronomer]

TanitAkavirius And?? You actually think only blonde people are white?? Are you serious?? Besides that Achilles had most probably blonde hair. But that isn't the issue here! Ancient Greeks,like the contemporary, had black hair brown hair blonde hair! But one thing they were not! Subsahara Africans!

[@beardedbjorn5520]

I don’t like it when Matt wears helmets. It takes away from his sexy bald head. I need that sheen man!

[@scholagladiatoria]

There is some irony in the fact that my head is more shiny than the helmet.

[@beardedbjorn5520]

If a man shaves their head and it isn't shiny, can you really trust him? I think not!

[@damanorelse]

Fairly sure in homer's description, Achilles wears a helmet which is so closed that when someone else wears his helmet they are mistaken for him. As he points out, the front plate isn't very historical, and the part that holds the plume looks obviously welded on.

[@guypierson5754]

Yeah the weld seem made me laugh a lot.

[@genghiskhan6809]

And the plume isn't even the right type of plume. It should look either like and upside-down J or a T with arms curved down.

[@shibblesshalzabot6320]

Fairly sure Achilles wasn’t black as well

[@joshhill5932]

I heard BBC was doing a new documentary on Churchill and are thinking of casting Morgan Freeman to play him but they are worried if he can pull it off being so skinny.

[@BoopSnoot]

Queen Elizabeth being portrayed by Oprah contributes to the re-imagining of historical figure girthiness.

[@iateyursandwiches]

I can't really convince you that your complaints of racially "misscast" characters is unsubstantial compared to complaints by blacks or even Asians t a certain degree (in America/Europe) but think about this: Think about how hard you have to cherry pick out of 100s of shows, out of 100s of documentaries to find all of these instances. Whites have a huge presence and using some media that contain the opposite(funny enough most of the other characters in those instances you speak of are still white) as evidence of whites fading out of existence is just ridiculous, if not intellectually dishonest. Black people's complaints are taken more seriously not because "only white people are the problem" but because "blackness" is already pretty marginalized in media not just in those countries, but worldwide.

[@mathy4605]

White washing these days happens mostly to anime (and other Asian stories) being adapted into Hollywood movies. And these movies are almost universally despised by the public and the fans of the original work.

[@0hn0haha]

The helmet has to cover the face, because of a plot point - patroklos wears the armor of achilles, and is meant to be him.

[@rikpien2925]

A crucial detail indeed How this guy missed it is beyond me

[@randygalat7786]

paty boy wore that helmet backward,one of the reasons he lost the fight...

[@edmckenzie1816]

We have a new "worst historical movie ever" winner.

[@benantilles6180]

Wow, I really didnt expect the spanish inquisition.

[@cca73127]

Nobody ex...............damn. I was going to use that but thought I’d check the comments first because surely someone else would have posted it.

[@Ghaztoir]

The Greeks didn't expect blackilles either

[@Darksky1001able]

NOBODY EXPECTS THE SPANISH INWUISITION!

[@jmaitland5709]

Everyone arguing in the comments about Achilles' actor needs to check out Metatron's video, he addresses almost all the arguments in that. This is just about the helmet.

[@pedrohenriquemorais4979]

Black blonde do exist, but not in africa but in the south pacific. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solomon_Islands#/media/File:Fenualoa_Tuo_school_children.jpg en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melanesians#/media/File:Blonde_girl_Vanuatu.jpg www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2139462/Riddle-Solomon-solved-Scientists-South-Sea-islanders-blond-hair-didnt-come-Europeans-evolved-separately.html

[@timtiby]

Neither were the Greek Gods, however, it would be rather annoying to watch a film that cast them as Asian or something that was not how they were depicted in mythology. Or better yet, imagine the Zulu Gods depicted as white... People like authenticity, especially on the silver screen.

[@redicebluefire2552]

If you are going to make the video just about the helmet than he should have simply made a quick 10 second disclaimer at the begging stating how obviously Achilles was not black African and move on from there, and he could have easily avoided the backlash, but he chose to be a coward instead, so you get what you deserve.

[@AB8511]

I knew it all the time. This is not antique swords collection. It is secret papist armory...

[@RKGrizz]

Wait why is Achilles black when it's a story about a Greek? Historical accuracy be damned if it's politically correct I guess.

[@KingAwesome8218]

It's a fictional character in a TV show, not a historical textbook. Many other actors have played Achilles have not had the features Achilles had, but I guess that never upset you. Move on we know why you have a problem with a black actor.

[@RKGrizz]

Mark K You don't know me. Don't call me a racist. Im an individualist, I don't care who or what you are as long as you are being yourself. I was a Obama voter, I am not a Trump supporter, I live in a multicultural area. Please don't assume to know me because I think Achilles being Greek is core to his character and changing that fundamentally changes the character.

[@therealpat5168]

"We've kind of got to tell a lie. We'll go back into history and there will be black people where, historically, there wouldn't have been, and we won't dwell on that. "We'll say, 'To hell with it, this is the imaginary, better version of the world. By believing in it, we'll summon it forth'." - BBC executive producer Steven Moffat BBC clearly is making a value judgment when they replace White historical figures (the Iliad was recognized as history until relatively recently, and regardless is a myth populated by Greeks and some far flung allies) with actors who aren't White. If someone says "I don't hate White people, I just think the world would be better if you weren't White." what other conclusion can you draw besides that they're lying?

[@MrStaano]

Achilles could have been black. Blacks (nubians), egyptians, greeks and persians had interactions / commerce and africans therefore could have fought in greek armies. They did in persian armies and egyptian.

[@MrStaano]

They guy they are crying about is not playing achilles ??

[@99IronDuke]

I entirely agree with the main topic of the Metatron's video and good on him for making it.

[@wolfgangrecordings]

yeah, tokenism has to be called out, it's as racist as excluding a black person from something really. as metatron says there's plenty of interesting african history to adapt for the screen without arbitrarily placing black people as characters known to be caucasian. i'd be well up for a memnon film/series

[@anyoneatall3488]

@@wolfgangrecordings i have a question what are metatron credentials? Is he a historian or...?

[@mathy4605]

@@anyoneatall3488 Language teacher (at least English and Japanese), also teaching Japanese culture. I think he majored in Japanese language. He also speaks several other languages and dialects, and is an enthusiast of Ancient Roman and European Medieval history and combat.

[@Hephera]

lol whats up with the random zoom-ins on peoples faces in your last few videos? theyre quite unsettling :P

[@daddyleon]

Yeah, artistic liberties of our AI-overlords!

[@wierdalien1]

Robin Steel its lols

[@daddyleon]

isfaik, yes, that's exactly it. It helps with being in focus with your face (eyes) ifyou stepback and forth or move around. But it can get distracted by other movements a bit. I try to see it as...unintentional funny stuff, otherwise it could bother me(?) and I choose to not do that. Enough stuff bothers me irl for me to try and become upset about that too.

[@DoktorWeasel]

He started with no editing on his videos, and now that he's started editing them, he's gone mad with power.

[@matthewmuir8884]

12:16 That was me. I was the one who said that the Roman Helmet is a copy of a helmet that was used in Gaul. The Greek influences is a good point. Those three civilizations did interact with each other and did trade with each other. I recall reading about Greek and Roman accounts regarding the Gauls very highly for skill at metalworking. Anyway; great video.

[@Segalmed]

Roman cavalry helmets were essentially copies of idealized Greek ones, the late republican/early principate infantry ones far less so if at all. Early republican helmets were likely much more 'Greek'.

[@genericfakename8197]

When Patroclus puts on Achilles' armour and goes off to raise the moral of the Greek soldiers people think that Achilles is there. Achilles' helmet should cover his face. The BBC is just a mess.

[@pavelkulinich3354]

Achilles' helmet is the minor problem with Achilles in Troy Fall of a City

[@benedicterhardt5594]

Th Illyrian helmet was used between 600 and 500 BC. The siege of Troy is estimated to have taken place between 1300 and 1100 BC. Also, Achilles is said to have worn a suit of armor which covered him so completely, that the Trojans did not realize it was Patrocles wearing the armor when they killed him.

[@twincast2005]

6:45 This version of the Corinthian helmet looks rather... phallic.

[@scholagladiatoria]

I do not think that was an accident.

[@DoktorWeasel]

"Watch out! We're being attacked by the Dickheads!"

[@twincast2005]

scholagladiatoria Neither do I, but it's still quite startling, not being used to the sight. (About half of the other examples shown could also count as such, but I guess the different angle had me more focused on the fancy bronze eyebrows.)

[@ManicEngine]

it could do with a good polishing

[@ANTSEMUT1]

@@ManicEngine cheeky 🤣🤣🤣

[@Lourage]

I just re-discovered this video, watched it again and got excited, because in it you are mentioning that you might do a series on greek helmets. However, when I checked your channel, I could not find any related videos. So I went from excited to disappointed and sad really quickly :(

[@paweandonisgawralidisdobrz2522]

Metatron: not saying your opinion is cowardice Matt: not gonna talk about this

[@apokos8871]

Matt is taking the more mature stance, considering how stupid most people using the anonymity of the internet can get is such discussions. whatever he might have said in the matter would have caused people to get mad, and he just wants to talk about helmets and swords. we have to respect him wanting to keep his political ideas to his friends and family and not in the public

[@LeonM4c]

apo kos +1 to this

[@paweandonisgawralidisdobrz2522]

apo kos It is a duty of every knight to defend the truth

[@apokos8871]

i dont see any knights around. do you? what is truth? lets get into a Socrates-like debate about the existance of one single truth or multiple definitions. and remember, only a Sith deals in absolutes

[@Smackosynthesis]

apo kos I don't see it as more mature, just not wanting to get involved, which is understandable. But voicing your opinions about it doesn't make it immature. Unless you're just talking about the people yelling we wuz kangz and other stupid crap.

[@Archontasil]

Lindy covers the horrendously funny "hellen of troy" film, i think it was a tv film. Not the brad pitt troy

[@scholagladiatoria]

I must be misremembering, I thought he had covered battles from Troy as well... or maybe that was me!

[@beardedbjorn5520]

I know he did a review of the telemovie one. That movie was outstandingly awkward.

[@hitokiriizo]

Black Greeks? I see social justice is alive and well at bbc. Hear they got shit on hard and the shows ratings were awful too....good.

[@abdalln8554]

"I am massively triggered by a non-white actor in a fictional story based off shaky myths, hear me cry."

[@rjfaber1991]

It's very rare for the actor playing a historical character to be the spitting image of that character, and if we're willing to use suspension of disbelief in order to see Brad Pitt as a genuine representation of Achilles, then I don't see why we'd suddenly draw the line at an actor with a darker skin tone and a wider nose; that same suspension of disbelief shouldn't have too many issues with that, unless there's some underlying bias against people with darker skin and certain other physical characteristics.

[@rjfaber1991]

+Jacob Mason - Oh, don't get me wrong, I'll happily believe there were ulterior motives with this casting. I don't personally believe in the existence of ethnicity, but I'm not totally oblivious to the whitewashing debate, and this does indeed seem like an overcorrection on the BBC's part. However, the way that casting decision came to be and the way it's perceived by the public are two different things, and so while I understand why people might be upset at the BBC for aforementioned ulterior motives, I don't understand why people are upset about the casting per se.

[@rjfaber1991]

+Jacob Mason - Ethnicity was invented a few centuries ago, and subsequently used to justify things like the Transatlantic Slave Trade, so that ought to rouse some suspicion as to its validity, and then when you actually look at its definition, you quickly realise that this whole distinction between people of different "races" is just cherrypicking of different physical features, because apparently skin colour matters a lot, but hair colour or eye colour is irrelevant. It's just a load of bollocks. As for the neighbourhoud I'd like to live in, I don't give a pig's arse about the religion or "race" of the people living there; if they're nice people, I like having them as neighbours, and if they aren't, I might be slightly less enthusiastic about them. I don't see how that would change with people of a different religion, and I certainly don't see how it would change with people of a different ethnicity, because as I explained, I think that's an artificial construct.

[@rjfaber1991]

+Jacob Mason - I had a sneaking suspicion this might end in ad hominem. Anyway, just FYI; I'm in my late twenties, so by most definitions I'm not old, and I'm very happily living in a very multicultural city in a very multicultural country. Whether or not we thrive as a countryy rather depends on your definition of "thrive" I suppose, but survival we seem to be doing pretty well at...

[@Pyre001]

What's with the dramatic zooms, Matt?

[@FedericoMalagutti]

Matt uses Context, is super effective!!! Jokes apart, really well made video, to be honest I've seen the first two episode of the fictions just two days ago and I had the same reaction as Metatron about the helmet (And well, also about the "Achille black" question, even if I understand the social motivations behind it) and now I've discovered that my idea of the greeks was a bit too "Biased" by some cool findings.

[@oddish2253]

[@arumatai]

well... homer wrote that achilles was armored from head to toe so it was hard to even see a piece of skin. and then there ist the death of patrokles who donned achilles armor and was undistinguishable from him -> so the helmet probably hid the face you know.

[@Mike_of_the_Sonora]

Matt as i agree with your video wouldnt the "real" Achilles have had a heavy face protected helmet as i recall reading the Iliad when Patroclus leads the army in the stead of Achilles the men can't tell them apart because of how well covered he was and only after being slain by Hector does the truth come to light

[@Coopersboy7]

“Sheeeeeeiiiiit mane, I killed that muhfucka Hector”- Achilles

[@alexv3652]

I'm sorry for you Matt, you made a great video about the helmet itself, but now your comment section is filling with complaints of Black Achilles. I will be curious though if Homer's classical interpretation of the much older myth of Achilles changed his idea on what Achilles wore to more match what Classical Greeks wore, much like how Medieval writers depicted King Arthur in plate and chain, when Arturias most likely wore Roman Legionaire kits.

[@darkblood626]

Well if he is talking about accuracy then it’s a bit of an elephant in the room.

[@alexv3652]

darkblood626 And Matt makes a point to avoid political discussion, aside from knife/sword regulations because that directly affects his content. Opening the can of worms on any kind of racewashing wasn't his goal or concern, because its not a topic he wanted to discuss. No matter how you cut it you could alienate viewers. Which when you talk about history on an academic level (able to be cited as I have cited Matt in essays), is definitely not what you want to do. It's why Matt gets invited to do college and video game demonstrations (as he did with AC: Unity years ago) by separating his content from his politics.

[@tyranid13]

Anachronism is actually a key element in the Homeric epics. In both the Iliad and the Odyssey the plot revolves around the struggle between the Bronze Age Kings (Agamemnon, Priam, Odysseus) and the emerging power of the Iron age middle class (Achilles).

[@alexv3652]

tyranid13 That's really interesting! Obviously there is no historical record of the Sea People or Bronze age collapse from Mycenyia(sp?) To Hellenistic Greeks, so the idea of an emerging iron age from within makes sense. I'm not fully brushed up on my Homer, so did the Argo take place considerably after the odyssey? Before? I ask mostly to pinpoint Heracles/Perseus and their importance to various cities.

[@tyranid13]

1) In Mythological terms Jason and the Argonauts takes place before the Odyssey (even though Greek colonization of Pontus began after the fall of Troy). 2) During the bronze age weapons were few and expensive. During the iron age power shifted to mass infantry. It was during this period that the primitive Doric Greeks invaded the Achaeans/Mycenaeans. Homer was an Achaean Greek who lived in the Colonies and was trying to figure out what went wrong. 3)Heracles was the iconic culture-hero of the Greeks. He was honored by all Greek tribes. Perseus was more of a Mycenaean hero.

[@kiba3x]

Black Achilles - there is no lower than that ...

[@cdgonepotatoes4219]

well, it's plausible that Achilles could've not been white white with blonde hair and a $7000 beard trim as I don't remember any historical records trying to give a description on his appearence but I'm also quite sure that he wasn't that dark either, that's really a center/south african skin... it's really mind numbing how people now just throw in black people in leading roles of movies just for the sake of it, not for historical or geographical accuracy, not because the actor is particularly good, just skin color... we're really going backwards these days

[@TheAncientAstronomer]

CDgonePotatoes Whites have blonde hair brown hair black hair! Still white. Achilles is been discribed as having long blonde hair. The ancient Greeks weren't subsahara Africans!

[@LeonM4c]

str81100 dude we get it, give it a rest, you're ALL over here. Matt's video is about the hemlet. Take all this to Metatron's vid.

[@MrStaano]

Achilles could have been black. Blacks (nubians), egyptians, greeks and persians had interactions / commerce and africans therefore could have fought in greek armies. They did in persian armies and egyptian.

[@burner27]

I can think of a few hundred things...

[@mcorte2224]

0:07 hahahahaha Cheers from Spain!

[@mcorte2224]

Bloodmane1987 the spanish memequisition

[@ltljohn3859]

Hi Matt, apologies if I’m late to the party and further apologies if this has already been raised but there is a full suit of Mycaenean armour on display at the archaeological museum in Nafplio that may be the closest to being contemporary with the setting of the epic cycle. It’s known as the Dendra Panoply and one striking feature is that facial protection was afforded mainly by a raised collar piece attaching to the breastplate. This could plausibly obscure the face of the wearer enough that identities could be confused, particularly in the case of wearers with similar physical attributes. There’s plenty of resource material around on the armour and I also have some detailed photographs of the piece that I’d be happy to share. Keep up the great content!

[@kiba3x]

Battle of Troy were around 10-12 century B.C. Homer invented (not wrote) his poem around 8 century B.C. based on the already existed folklore legend.

[@ChristopherCline]

I love it. Matt and I agree about our review of Troy, regarding which parts we appreciated vs. which parts we disliked. That pleases me.

[@Floreal78]

Yes! Please do make a morion helmet video at some point! :)

[@owenkeller2748]

Please read the Iliad chapter 16 where Patroklos asks Achilles for his armor “so perhaps the Trojans might think I am you, and give way from their attack, and the fighting sons of the Achaeans (Greeks) get wind again after hard work” or when he later “was helming himself in bronze that glittered” and “ set the well-fashioned helmet with the horse hair crest, and the plumes nodded terribly above it” And please read chapter 19 where Hephaestus “wrought him (Achilles) a helmet, massive and fitting close to his temples, lovely and intricate work, and laid a gold top-ridge along it”

[@TrollDragomir]

Those dramatic zooms xD One thing you didn't mention is that the siege of Troy most likely took place during wars between the Mycenaean and the Achaean, and their gear would look vastly different to anything worn later by Hoplites. In fact, the pre-archaic period Greece was a period loaded with war gear and fortifications most reminiscent of over the top fantasy barbarians a'la Conan. Probably because back then war was still largely a ceremonial affair - duels between champions whom you'd want to adorn in different ways. I wish somebody did a movie on that period that'd be historically accurate, as there's a ton of cool stuff to work with. Achilles and Hector would most likely look something like this: i.pinimg.com/originals/7b/45/68/7b456868fdcbb05b4bbc932227327f7d.jpg

[@luisarturoorduna2098]

One argument against the open faced helmet: Patroclus used Achilles armor and everyone tought it was Achilles coming back to battle, had the helmet showed the wearer's face, the myrmidons for a start, would have recognized him immediatly.

[@savvasa.4064]

Greek helmets in a British museum? Someone stole somethingg 😏😏

[@scholagladiatoria]

Mostly purchased from the government of the time, actually. Plus many purchased from private collections.

[@savvasa.4064]

I don't want to sound bad but the story that greek folks know is that England take them ancient things(u know) in the excuse that at the time they didn't have musiums to protect them, and know that they got,they refuse to give them back ... Those are facts,don't take them hatefuly

[@TheGuitarChief]

Great info as always, not sure what the deal is with those zooms, but the content is always spot on

[@haloe2233]

Matt is scared because disliking blackillies is a hate crime and he's going to get count dankulaed

[@scholagladiatoria]

I'm not the one scared to use my real name ;-)

[@paullytle246]

scholagladiatoria these people have the weirdest victim complex

[@michaelmorgan9973]

A very interesting video on helmets in general. Got me thinking about the advantages and disadvantages of certain helmet types. As usual however, it's all about context, which is why there are so many types of everything. Looking forward to another video on helmets.

[@hernandogaribaldi8627]

"The great thing of London is It isn't ancient Grece, but have the British Museum" That's savage and imperialist, the way I like it XD

[@stannisthemannis8694]

So the face reinforcement is incorrect, the thing on top (obviously don't know what it's called so of someone could let me know) was incorrect, why are you making a a video saying he's wrong about the helmet?

[@matthijsrisselada7186]

Interesting video, but I fear you do not go far enough. Is the helmet of Achilles based on a real historical type helmet? it would seem so, that is great. The next question should be, is that historical type helmet also appropriate for the time in history? This is obviously a way more tricky question. How does Homer describe the helmet of Achilles? Is it like an Illyrian helmet? Or is it different? Or might we try and fix Troy in a more historical period? Might troy be the same as the Wilusa as known from Hittite texts? Perhaps, perhaps not. If it is, what helmet was worn in the time before the Hittite collaps, somewhere in the 13'th to 12'th century BCE. What do we know abouyt Greek or Anatolian style helmets from that time? Matt Easton, you were once trained as an archaeologist, what can you tell us about bronze age (Mycenaean ) or dark age helmets from the Greek region? I am aware that Troy (Ilion) = Wilusa might be a controversial topic, but I hope you do not mind speculation.

[@oskarileikos]

Another point about the morion and also about the kettle hat! A cut coming from the front will also be protected by the brim. The brim will catch the blow before it gets to your face. So the brim really is an effective way to protect your face without having to put anything in front of it.

[@TheSharpeful]

I should go to London? Stabbings, acid attacks, political prisioners, wrong think laws, worse crime levels than New York.... yah, I think I'll pass on that. Plus, if I really wanted to experience islamic culture, I'd just go to Morroco. Closer, slightly more authentic and probably a little safer.

[@hernandogaribaldi8627]

London could have those things you mention earlier. but also have: The British Museum. Seriously that shit is a modern wonder. Crime levels of New York are pityful if you comparte it to Mexico City levels of crime so do you a favour and don't fear and visit another first world countries.

[@TheSharpeful]

Yeah, I suppose statistics are "scaremongering" now... :\ 31.3% rise in stabbings alone since the past year, and the title "acid attack capital of europe" seems to make a wonderful place to visit. Maybe we can get the rape gang museums too in other towns like rotheram, telford, rochdale, newcastle and the list goes on. I mean it's just a few tens of thousands of rapes with police doing fuck all about lest they be called racist heh England is a clown country, and it's capital London is the butt end of jokes all across the western world now. Almost as funny and pathetic as Sweden really. At least some of your population got the balls to vote out of the EU... but now they're understanding their vote never really meant anything to begin with ;)

[@rjfaber1991]

+TheSharpeful - I'm sorry, but did I just witness a US-American calling Britain the laughing stock of the West? I mean, my opinion of Britain has gone down significantly since Brexit, and there's no doubt that Theresa May's government can sometimes be hilariously inept, but all of this pales into comparison with what the US has been doing for decades, and especially now that it's handed the reins to monsieur Trump and his associates.

[@TheSharpeful]

"I'm sorry, but did I just witness a US-American calling Britain the laughing stock of the West?" Not at all. I'm not american. I'm in Europe, part of a country that hasn't yet shaken off the brainwashing enough to get rid of the autocratric EU yet. Soon though, one way or another. Also, Trump has certainly been a mixed blessing for our burger friends across the pond, but certainly better than being ruled by the Clinton family again.

[@rjfaber1991]

+TheSharpeful - Ah yes, sorry, didn't realise you were one of those types who discovers that the EU isn't 100% perfect yet, but rather than trying to fix it, immediately abandons ship, only to find that in comparison to the rest of the world, the EU is a a shining beacon of democracy and human rights, but then has to deny that in order not to have a total identity crisis. Should have realised that...

[@colonyavalon]

Hi, the helmet should be appropriate for the era of the supposed Sack of Troy. From a quick check of Wikipedia, the first Illyrian helmet were from around 700-600 BCE, From some previous reading the era for Troy should be around 1200 BCE, give or take 100 years (depending on who you believe). The civilisation at the time would be near the end of the Mycenaean Period in Greece ( roughly around 1100 BCE). Does the helmet roughly conform to that period?

[@eldorados_lost_searcher]

Scared the hell outta me at beginning, Matt.

[@gostino1000]

In a greek museum I have seen the oldest known type of greek armor. Belly and back were protected by a single 35- 40 cm wide bronze hoop. Maybe 5 mm to 1 cm thick. Leather parts were no longer preserved. But the Helmet was made of many wild boar tusks.

[@GK-xd2xm]

Black Achilles? I don't think so the skin was milk-white his hair was long and reddish reddish

[@justinlee790]

Hey Matt, love your videos. One thing to note about modern combat helmets though, is that while vision and hearing are hugely important, and you make a good point on the fact that you cannot aim properly if your face is covered, the large reason they lack facial protection is just because there is no possible face covering you could wear that would protect you from the majority of threats a modern Soldier would face. At best some sort of ballistic mask might be able to protect you from light shrapnel, but there is nothing you could wear that would be able to protect your face from bullets or larger shrapnel without being too heavy to practically move in. At least for the modern ground soldier, offensive technology has largely outpaced defensive technology, and even armor vests with plates aren't designed to protect from multiple impacts.

[@hmldjr]

His helmet's wrong and the color of his skin.

[@kam_iko]

henry dicarlo yes, because this is the first screen adaption deviating from it’s FICTIONAL source. also, the FICTIONAL character’s head was INVULNERABLE...

[@hmldjr]

Maybe fictional, maybe not. The Greeks believed that he lived and they wrote the book. Archaeology is proving the war took place. The Iliad is the peak of western literature. It is far more accurate than the FICTIONAL Koran.

[@kam_iko]

henry dicarlo yes, the war most probably took place. everything else is fiction, until proven otherwise. and yes, that for me, as an atheist, includes religion. every religion. but thank you for assuming mine based on my first name. anyway, the point was - it‘s a movie. work of art & fiction. it‘s not trying to be a documentary. achilles played by gal gadot or idris elba? i say, go for it.

[@hmldjr]

And I say, keep it close to the original classic, just like this guy is trying to keep the original armor. Achilles was not a negro. I don't like the classics being polluted with SJW ideas. And who are you kidding, you may be an atheist now but with that name you were a muslim.

[@kam_iko]

henry dicarlo my name is a slavic variant of italian camillo, which comes from latin camillus. it‘s fairly commonly used in poland, czech republic and slovakia. non-practicing catholic parents, no baptism, therefore never belonged to any religion. and yes, there is also an arabic name, which can be transcribed similarly, which comes from the arabic word for perfect. glad i could be of help.

[@noxteryn]

Yes, the Iliad is thought to have been written around the 8th century BCE, while the war of Troy is thought to have taken place around 1,200 BCE.

[@Unpainted_Huffhines]

OK, the helmet can be considered somewhat accurate. Now, next question, were the ancient Greeks Sub-Saharan Africans?

[@apokos8871]

i am a progressive liberal and i find the whole discussion silly. there are far more important stuff going on right now that almost noone talks about. liberals and leftists dont have any problem with whites, that's just ridiculous conservative propaganda and ignorance. do you think BBC is run be leftists? its a big corporation that wants to make money. now lets talk about the treatment of the Kurds by the Turkish goverment or the Ukranian civil war that noone talks about in the western media, shall we?

[@apokos8871]

BadgerOfDeath where are you from? i find it very strange that you honestly believe that. would you like to prove it somehow? why would white liberals be against whites? are they cartoon-level evil?

[@RingBananaFonz]

Probably not, but they also weren't Americans from Oklahoma, yet I don't see people complaining about Brad Pitt in Troy

[@Unpainted_Huffhines]

RingBananaFonz true enough, but, the difference between Northern European and Southern European is much less of a stretch (ie, slightly more realistic) than Southern European and Sub-Saharan African.

[@RingBananaFonz]

Sure, but both are not truly accurate representations. David Gyasi most likely looks less like Achilles than Brad Pitt, but I feel like people are getting too worked up over how much like Achilles the actor looks. Movies almost never get the actual person's appearance right unless it's a very recent person (Winston Churchill, for example). In HBO's Rome, Caesar had a full head of hair, despite being famously bald or balding. I feel like getting the appearance exactly right isn't as important as the actor pulling off the feel of the character. I haven't seen this new show, because I heard it's garbage, but the actors not looking like (possibly fictional) characters is probably the least of their concerns.

[@marcuswright5577]

At least one other person said this: The helmet was supposed to conceil the face of the wearer in order for the story to work. On the other hand - the Brad Pitt version also has an open-face style helmet in the movie. And that's the key point: Movie makers want their actors to show their faces - and that "logic" seems to beat everything else in the world. ;-)

[@redburton2661]

Ugh. BBC is the worst.

[@BigDaddy-fx4nx]

Some might not have even been bronze helmets. The experts think it's possible Odysseus wore a boar's tusk helmet. Achilles wore armor that did not show his face so it was closed.

[@serindas]

Matt i think that you and Raffaello (Metraton) are talking from a different point of wiew. Your point is historical, Metraton point is wath the Illiad say.

[@LionAstrology]

Cool video on Greek helmets I didn't know there were so many examples..must be the bronze and possibly the climate of origin to preserve so many from that long ago.

[@edi9892]

Would you get arrested in GB, if you use your right of free speech commenting on black Archilles (who in the poem was, fair and blond)? For those that don't know: recently some have been arrested on their way to speakers corner, for accusations up to terrorism.

[@edi9892]

But speakers corner and the Dankula-incident were both GB. I haven't heard of anyone getting arrested in Germany for such stupidities. In Germany, you get fined and can in the worst case go into prison, if you deny the holocaust, or (at least attempt to) cause groups (of any kind) fight each other. If you call black people inferiour, you may get fined for insult. The greater worry are not the judges, but those, that should not judge you: you may very well lose your job, not get allowed in restaurants, for being a racist and you might get beaten, your house deglassed in winter, your car burned down etc. by AntiFa-activists... They have become way more active than right wing terrorists (yes I call both sides terrorists, even if they don't blow shit up, or kill people, because if you do your best to ruin another peoples life for having a different opinion, then you're a terrorist non the less.)

[@apokos8871]

well, both sides take quite violent measures but antiFa hasnt ever killed anyone, so you cant really call them both terrorists. and i find it somewhat silly that people in the west are so vocal against antiFa groups (especially americans) when they have so few actual antifascists there. in greece there is a very big, active community and the general public dont have any issue with them, understanding that neonazis are much more dangerous. people have been murdered, some of them very recently, by neonazi groups

[@edi9892]

apo kos Originally I was in favour of the AntiFa. After all, I can't stand Nazis. However, too many people were hurt by them for little reason. For instance, a guy was a regular customer in a restaurant and was thus well received by the owner. They were even friends. Then the customer joined the AFD and the restaurant owner received an anonymous letter telling him to ban that person, or suffer the consequences. He chose the latter and was ruined by arson! Also AntiFa thugs have beaten people so badly that they were maimed and in some cases almost killed and in at least two incidents this happened only because the victim wore a shirt of Freiwild (a band who is favoured by Neonazis, but has no direct ties to them AFAIK). Regarding the increasing violence of these beatings and the more reckless nature of their arson, it becomes only a matter of time until the first people die.

[@edi9892]

apo kos Also I guess there are 3x more active AntiFa extremists in Germany than Neonazis. The latter may be more violent, but if you take the total damage into account the score evens out.

[@apokos8871]

would there be any antifascists if there werent any neonazis? no. its a militant response to an ideology that glorifies nazism. the allies bombed and killed nazis to save the world from this threat. do you blame them for using violence?

[@davidgreen6490]

How would Patroclus be disguised as Achilles in this far too open helmet?

[@Theduckwebcomics]

I think you've got this quite wrong Mat, I think Raf is well aware that there were open face helmets in Ancient Greece. He was probably criticising the silly angular, modern shape of the prop helmet, as well as the cheap, thin look, and only using the Corinthian helmet as an example of what real helmets look like.

[@scholagladiatoria]

This helmet is actually closer to some originals than most helmets from other comparable shows. Certainly closer than the ones shown in The 300.

[@postamenos6935]

Hello sir @scholagladiatoria . Wanted to make a question if you can help me . At 07:05 - 07:10 the 4th helmet on the top row ( wich is inbetween Illirian and Corinthian) . Were is that coming from ? Is it from Cyprus ?

[@vortigern7021]

You should do a video on sub Saharan helmets.

[@scholagladiatoria]

Armour from Mali is super interesting.

[@raprice79]

scholagladiatoria You should definitely do a video about armour from Mali and surrounding countries. I always really enjoy your videos about non-european weapons etc.

[@Smackosynthesis]

Sub Sahara anything, really, if you have the knowledge. Whole half a continent full of history that many of us know so little about.

[@ericconnor8251]

I'd like to see information on the armor and weaponry of the Aksumite Kingdom and Ethiopian Empire for that matter.

[@minotauruskt]

Vortigern yeah,and put some tall blonde white guy to represent ancient african

[@gawayne1374]

I would agree with you Matt, but formone thing. Metatron mentions a quote from the Illyad that describes Achilles as being armoured so heavily that nearly no part of his body was visible. So it makes sense that the helmet should leant towards the Corinthian helmet rather than the open one

[@GreyHunter88]

I respect his right to stay silent on the controversy, but unfortunately silence kind of seems like an answer all on its own in this kind of situation.

[@redicebluefire2552]

I respect his right, it still makes him a coward.

[@sharkfacemlg]

Who? Metatron? He has talked about it in a comment on this video and on his own.

[@redicebluefire2552]

Nooo, this guy of course

[@thalivenom4972]

abstaining so as to not feed the fire is not cowardly. Im sure Matt has a personal opinion but actually, i am fine with him keeping it to himself, in an era where everyone constantly shoves theirs in your face and tries to force you to pick sides constantly. if this is about the history, then politics shouldn't matter.

[@iateyursandwiches]

Matt, as a person who is one of those who nitpick media for historical inaccuracy, likely doesn't agree with this move by BBC(e's probably not angry about it and seething in rage like many of the people here though). However, the problem is, talking about it is easily conflated with being mad about racial inclusiveness in media. More over, it tends to invite a lot of racist dickheads and white nationalists(not that they have been completely stopped here though). Something Matt likely doesn't want as he is not a racist or alt right moron. Overall, he just doesn't want his channel to be political when it's not about that at all.

[@kosmokenny]

Whether he was wearing a more enclosed Corinthian style helmet or an open faced Illyrian helmet, both designs were developed hundreds of years after the Trojan wars, which likely took place during Mycenaean Greece. The most commonly depicted helmet from then isnt even bronze, but a padded leather cap with boar tusks plating the outside of it. They did have bronze helmets though, and assuming Achilles was a person of importance, it would make sense if he had one. They did add varying levels of ear flaps or facial protection to those helmets, but it was actually riveted on.

[@rickedyrektd1895]

the zoomings sort of weird mat

[@caspar_van_walde]

Thanks for this video Matt! Fortunately I saw it before rereading Wikipedia and leaving an angry comment under Metatrons video. And yes, please do more videos on ancient greek warfare!

[@Knight_Astolfo]

*Slow Zoom*

[@raptorjesues1445]

Funny thing: Achilles would not have been black since he came from FUCKIN THESSALY. GOD FUCKIN DAMNIT

[@prechabahnglai103]

Wasn't Achilles so clad in metal that his cousin was mistaken to be him when he borrowed(stole) the armour?

[@salavat294]

There archeological arguments, that, the Battle of Troy, has been placed in the Mycenaean Greek period about 1000 BCE. The helmets of time were generally of much cruder hammered bronze, plumed conical construction, reinforced with tiled boar-tusk ivory. Illyrian and other Classical Greek helmets came into fashion almost 300 years later. But, then again “IT’s Just A Movie”, written by writers are either ignorant of history or just only care about the “drama”. While directors are mostly interested in the “spectacle” of the film.

[@caradocapcunobelin2875]

Really reminds me I'm watching a low budget PC TV show when I'm constantly seeing people that are not historical Greeks, small camera shots to hide the fact that they never have more than 50 men on set, and just plain poor acting.

[@caradocapcunobelin2875]

Couldn't personally get through more than 2 episodes.

[@brucetucker4847]

How would we even know what historical Greeks looked like 3200 years ago? There's been a lot of mixing and migration throughout the Balkans since then. I mean, probably more or less white, but beyond that, not necessarily like Greeks today or even in the classical era.

[@Catubrannos]

It's not just the casting, it's props too which gives the impression that the producers just don't care. I tried to watch Stargate Origins recently and it's awful too. Bad costuming, props, plot and acting - super low budget. I can't say I was impressed by The Last Kingdom in terms of props or historic accuracy but at least the casting was good and the acting is great.

[@KSmithwick1989]

+Bruce Tucker For starters they depicted themselves in their art, which included frescos. They were/are predominantly of R1b Haplotype, being the decedents of early farmers from the Near East. With Caucasians (R1a) migrants settling in the region in the early Bronze Age. The appearance of Alexander the Great, is somewhat of an outliner for the average Ancient Greek. As Alexander the Great was a Macedonian (Balkan), which genetically trend more to the early Caucasians (R1a). As opposed to the Greeks to the south, which trend more Turkey/Lebanon (R1b) were it originated from.

[@Catubrannos]

@Bruce Tucker How about we take the ancient Greeks whose tales we are using at their word and believe that Achilles was fair haired. Blond or red haired, the fact remains that he is described as fair haired, the Molossians who claimed descent from him had fair hair. One of his supposed descendants is Pyrrhus of Epirus who fought the Roman invasion of Greece. He had red hair like his namesake Pyrrhus (Neoptolemus), son of Achilles. He is also the person whom the term pyrrhic victory comes from.

[@Gustav_Kuriga]

I'm not saying that the Italian helmets you mentioned were or were not influenced by the Ancient Greeks. That out of the way, I will point out that merely because helmets have similar features or look relatively similar does not automatically mean one can trace its design to the other. Rather, a possibility is that the makers of the helmet independently found that making a helmet a certain way solved a problem they had, without any knowledge or influence of the other. While it is biology, an example of this can be found in vertebrate and cephalopod eyes, where similar natural pressures led to the independent formation of eyes. This would be convergent evolution.

[@Puritan1985]

Wouldn't want to be GROSSLY OFFENSIVE to anyone, would we matt?

[@John2r1]

There is a problem with even using the Illyrian helmet in the movie Troy .. Which is that the Illyrian Type I dates to c. 700-640 BC . The battle of Troy is supposed to have taken place sometime during the Trojan wars circa 13th-12th century BC . In other words between 1300 to 1101 BC . This war would predate the invention of the Illyrian type 1 helmet. So the helmet styles used in films is likely wrong to the time of the actual war. Of course depending on when the actual war took place .

[@Astorath_the_Grim]

Shaka Zulu shall be played as a ginger. It's only fair.

[@psansoucy]

What protection was worn underneath these helmets to absorb shock between skull and metal, if there was such protection?

[@pauldunlop1660]

Mat Easton, thirty years the BBC made a series called "in search of the Trojan war" in the title sequence there was a reconstruction of Mycenaean Armour based on contemporaneous artwork, bronze fragments, and the Dendra Panoply, I suggest you buy a copy of in search of in search of the Trojan war or research Peter Collonys Artwork and reconstructions or the many books Osprey Arms and armor series about Mycenaean Greece which is illustrated with the supporting archeological evidence for their Artwork. The overwhelming evidence is that Mycenaean Heroic age Armour looked NOTHING like 7th-century dark age Greece! There is nothing in the British Museum that dates back to 1125 to 1150 bc period in which the Trojan war took place but their is the Dendra Panoply in the Nafplion Museum Greece, which predates it.EVEN JUST GOOGLING Mycenaean armor should be quite an eye-opener.

[@scholagladiatoria]

I know all this - if you listen to my video, you'll see that I even addressed exactly this point. I guess you didn't watch it.

[@JiantJames]

Bit sassy.

[@mgreco712]

The Dendra armor is from the 16th or 15th century BC. The Trojan War, if it happened, is suspected to have taken place in the 12th. It would not be extraordinary if Greek armors changed over that 300-400 year period. In fact, I think it should be expected. Based on the little evidence there is for armor from the "war period", the armors that would have been used would have more closely resembled what most envision as classic Greek armor than the Dendra.

[@pauldunlop1660]

Fair point well argued, Armour did evolve and the legends state Troy fell first and then the rest of old heroic civilization and we have an inkling what the armor of that era looked like. Some academics who have suggested the sack of Troy was done as part of the "sea peoples migrations" it is suggested they were, in fact, the Mycenaeans raiding the med! The inferences were that some of the sculptures found around the Mediterranean resembled the warrior vase, from Mycenae, in the Greek national museum in that the troops had embossed bonze greeves a helmet with a raised Bronze ridge, bucks horns projecting out it and a cuirass that had lost neck/throat guard and its lower belly and back plates had gone but still retained the shoulder guards and they went on to sack Troy loots the crumbling Hittite empire but came unstuck with Egypt where they were outnumbered .youtube showing the warrior vase: kzbin.info/www/bejne/f4aZiZWNorWIb7s Someone has kindly committed BBC 1980's Documentary series in search of the Trojan War to youtube, Which the middle third of the episode linked below, shows illustrations by and an interview with the late Peter Connolly FSA.He was an artist Scholar, reconstructional archaeologist, and illustrator and his book The Legend of Odysseus, Oxford University Press was used as the basis of the late 80's BBC documentary series in search of the Trojan war still available on DVD.Peters Books on Rome and Greece are fantastic because of the use of supporting archaeological evidence to justify his stunning reconstructions.Even the opening title sequence shows an actor in what is reconstructed late Mycenaean armor was evolving into. kzbin.info/www/bejne/bGW0ga1oqZqHaaM If you want to own metal miniatures to paint up of that period go to Historex agents website and many manufacturers produce them in 75mm or 54mm just type Agamemnon or Achilles or Mycenaean into the search engine.Its funny worldwide the figure painting and wargaming crowd have the same opinion as me?

[@OrkarIsberEstar]

for medieval helmets - full plate armor had the huge advantage of making you basicly immune to arrows and that insane gain on a medieval battlefield would have been very compromised if you had an open face helmet. Similiar fighting in full armor often came down to grappling with daggers so again an open face would absolutely make the rest of the armor pretty useless so they went with as little openings that they could get away with. In ancient times most armor was only covering the torso as the rest was covered by big ass shields and maybe some leg plates so closed face helmets aint as important. In modern times vision is king as we basicly fight from hundreds of meters away and bullets in special sniper rounds or artellerie fire wont be stopped by any kind of armor anyway so seeing a threat and taking cover is much more important than actual protection

[@Theduckwebcomics]

That helmet is really shit. Sure, to be absolutely correct it wouldn't quite be a Corinthian helmet but the Corinthian style is the classic style applied to that mythical figure. The theatrical helmet is visibly thin and flimsly looking. Looks like painted cardboard or thin metal shim. Bad cosplay. Also the size... From the real helmets I've seen in Athens museams they're smaller and more form fitting, unlike later helmets.

[@enyalios316]

Seeing it historically is wrong. Achilles and the trojan war is a cultural thing. Its Homers story. We don't even know if Achilles, Hector[...] really existed. Furthermore, the ancient Greeks gave us their illustration of how Achilles looked like (long hair, white, corinthian helmet, aspis...) Hence it would be the best idea to picture them like the Greeks would have.

[@enyalios316]

I mean the trojan war as a historical event. We can not be sure it really happened like Homer told us. Trying to tell what kind of helmet Achilles wore is not possible since it may not have been historical. Actually, Homer said that his armor was made by the gods. The Ilias and its content are myths. Besides the classical Greek culture I am talking about existed long after the fall of Troy. In my opinion it would be better to make Achilles and Co. look like they did on greek paintings. That would be the best solution. In this case you can not rely on purely historic data. Maby the mycenean army, but that's it.

[@almanacofsleep]

koryvantesstudies.files.wordpress.com/2015/01/8338227429_791a8dd3a2_o.jpg?w=678&h=1024 Achilles would have been wearing this most likely

[@almanacofsleep]

Also like to add we believe Homer's story as describing real events, even his descriptions of armour are accurate to the archaeological evidence we have.

[@thcdreams654]

I saw the movie Troy in theaters when it was released and enjoyed it. Also enjoyed your top comment.

[@NesRuA]

"I'm here to conquer your lands and convert you to Catholocism." HYPE "No, actually I'm not." Oh, ok.

[@crazyrussianbot8012]

Nobody expects the Easton Inquisition

[@Kosh800]

I noticed a lot of the pro black Achilles arguments seem to be of the same nature as those who were angry with Kingdom Come Deliverance's lack of black people in Bohemia. I mean I've heard the EXACT same arguments, all relating to this idea that the world, and Europe in specific, was a melting pot of some kind. It's as if people can't fathom the idea that travel wasn't nearly as easy back then as it is now. As if just because Roman territory spanned from the Africa to Britain that it means Africans were in Britain. Like, what? Most people even today find it a pain in the ass to move somewhere across a country, and we have modern roads and vehicles. Imagine what it would have taken to move from Africa to Europe and then move even farther north. It's like people lack common sense. That doesn't even go into the social and societal differences, language differences, political and governmental differences, or racial prejudice. I can think of very, very little reason why someone in Africa of that time period would even want to move anywhere that was so unfamiliar and inhospitable. Maybe some refugees from a war, but even then it's not like they'd be moving farther than they need to.

[@xthor86]

Real movmenet of people from everywhere else to Europe didnt happen untill Europe basically banished poverty in its own area. Yes, there was no reason to come to europe untill after ww2. Before that, people had it basically as shitty as anywhere else, poor, died young and life was pretty crappy all around. Then Europe got its shit togheter, and the locusts come. Its not exactly a new concept. Migration only happens for 2 reasons. Your own place is so fucking shitty youll die if you stay there, and even then, only tiny amounts of people actually move. The other place is soo good, you want to leech of that, instead of doing the hard labor of fixing your own place, then you get huge waves of people moving.

[@darnokthemage170]

there were chinese in Roman Britannia, black people served in the Legions just as much as italians or Greeks, it's not a stretch at all that a roman soldier from North Africa is in Britannia.

[@xthor86]

It is a pretty giant stretch, as no one would put that much resources into talking local militia troops to britannia from africa, when you had the same available locally.

[@Kosh800]

Chinese in Roman Britain? I'd LOVE to see proof of that. As far as I can remember the Chinese tried to send an emissary to the Roman territories and they never even made it there.

[@johnfrancisdoe1563]

Kosh800 Here's one good reason: Imperial governments often have a practical policy of using soldiers or police from the opposite end of their empire to suppress or control potentially hostile local populations, because they will have fewer local ties or sympathies. Therefore the Roman emperors may have used African legions to suppress unruly Northerners and British legions to suppress unruly Africans.

[@vincenzocracolici7002]

8th Century BC (late Geometric period, end of the Iron Age) is the date for the Homeric poems setting, while the "official text" we know was established in Athens in 5th Cent. BC. But the poems, that come from a collection of oral narrations, describe a previous period, that of Bronze Age.

[@spartacus5950]

At the risk of fanning the Blackilies fire, if we're to take Homer's word that Achilles is blond, don't we also have to concede that Hector's hair was κύανος, or blue/cyan (correction: the word blue itself is not found at all in the Iliad, but Odysseus' hair is described as like hyacinths at one point which are blue)? And the ocean should probably be "wine-dark" as he called it, so hurrah for red oceans I guess. The problem here is that people want to jump onto the hot-button topic and pretend like they know what actually happened: they don't. Homer was just one poet who had a story passed down to him from many others before him. Details can change overtime like a game of telephone and people can change roles or up-and-disappear from the story based on the whims of the poet telling the story. Thus, we don't know if Achilles was blond, nor if he were even real. It's possible Achilles was changed what Homer thought would resonate most with the Greeks of his age or that Achilles was an amalgamation of multiple people from the Trojan War (which was said to be 10 years long, so that gives a large time frame that many soldiers could have performed Achilles' feats and just all be mixed into the same person under the entity "Achilleus"; however, we don't even know if it was actually 10 years so *shrug*). Thus, Homeric Achilles was blond, but probably not real for reasons stated before. And this is all besides the point because *it doesn't matter if Achilles is black.* It changes absolutely nothing in the story and is completely unlike the race-change with Roland in The Dark Tower since Roland being white was the crux behind an entire character's actions in the 2nd book. You're all getting your panties in a bunch over a very superficial change. That is all.

[@fillosof66689]

GutsGetter GutsGetter you are missing a key point here, I think. A sizable number of people responsible for a by itself perfectly valid decision to cast a number of black actors on prominent roles in that series are the very same people that damn, in quite strong terms, a lot of other works of fiction for 'whitewhashing'. So either it's a fair game either way or it isn't; people simply want consistently applied standards.

[@spartacus5950]

That's a different point entirely then from something being "historically accurate." It's possible the creators have whitewashed (or blackwashed as others seem apt to call it) other things, but that is entirely unrelated from Troy: Fall of a City since it's an adaptation of fictional events. Furthermore, the people who make these shows aren't historians. It's not like they're rewriting the Iliad here itself, so why make such a fuss?

[@fillosof66689]

GutsGetter you are right in that the discussion of "historical accuracy" isn't applicable here as the we are talking about a work of fiction, you are right. And IMO, any work of fiction is a fair game for reimagining and interpretation, as long as the original version stays untouched. But I can't help but get a kick out of certain people getting shit they constantly pull over others thrown back in their faces; to get astounded by the level of hypocrisy when they become indignant over such a development and claim that *their* claims are valid, while those of the other side are ridiculous and fuled by hate and bigotry. That is why I support such initiatives, with a caveat that they shouldn't be brought into places that don't make a voluntary choice to engage with such topics. So just posting on Matt's video is wrong, but answering to a comment that touches on the subject to clarify where some of us come from is a fair game, same as any site that specializes on discussing such issues. Essentially, I think the fuss needs to be made so people can make a point about the useless and unfair nature of such discussions in general.

[@abdalln8554]

Hector was an anime character?

[@spartacus5950]

AbdallN Really, everyone in the Iliad was more or less in a gory seinen anime, but Hector has blue hair because either a) Homer or someone who passed the story of the Iliad to him changed colors for poetic reasons or b) the Greeks hadn't really developed a modern concept of colors like we do nowadays (they possibly used a dark-light scale of judging color rather than our hue-based scale). The second is generally is seen as more likely from what I've read as many cultures go through specific patterns of splitting colors from others into distinct concepts. Russian, for instance, has no one word for blue, but has "dark blue" (siniy) and "light blue" (goluboy). Japanese as well has green and blue as one color referred to as "あお" or "ao" but also has "緑" or midori for green in modern times; point being that they created a new term for that specific hue of blue, though we would consider blue and green to be separate hues entirely. It should be noted this is different from color-blindness where you can't physically see a color. The Greeks could see these colors, they just may not have had names for them that would describe how they looked that would make sense to us. PS: I might actually be wrong about Hectors hair being referred to as blue, apparently. Instead, Odysseus has his hair described as being like hyacinths, which are blue (though it should be noted the word blue is actually not found in the Iliad, at least not directly). I'm going to say I might be wrong on that specific detail. Nonetheless, the oceans are still described as wine-dark, which is still dark red for the Greeks. If they did in fact compare colors based on color brightness rather than hue, it would make sense to compare the dark ocean to something else that is dark and like liquid (wine) but the fact remains that their sense of color is actually off from modern standards. Here's some reading material too: Guy Deutscher (2010). Through the Language Glass. www.amazon.com/Through-Language-Glass-Different-Languages/dp/0312610491 Gladstone, William Ewart (1858). Studies on Homer and the Homeric Age books.google.com/books?id=6UgVAAAAQAAJ Russian blue stuff: www.newscientist.com/article/dn11759-russian-speakers-get-the-blues/ www.pnas.org/content/104/19/7780

[@LV_427]

I think one other reason why most modern combat helmets don't cover face is to humanize the wearer and make the enemies more hesitant to shoot them knowing that they are going to kill another human being.

[@hardgoodbye]

I’d call you a coward but I know what your country does to truth speakers.

[@scholagladiatoria]

A coward? I use my real name and people know where to find my club. Can the same be said of you?

[@abdalln8554]

"Look at how 'ard i am"

[@cosmodeus1720]

@scholagladiatoria Your country just convicted someone of telling a joke on youtube the other day. You were saying?

[@redicebluefire2552]

scholagladiatoria it takes zero courage to push Leftist BS because Leftists are perfectly safe to give their information out because the government and corrupt legal system, as well as the mindless Leftist majority has your back. You are a coward.

[@wisedragon173]

scholagladiatoria you downplay how insane political correctness has become to the point that is hindering science. Keep in mind BBC has no right to steal the ancient Greek identity from the Greeks. English or Brits can't decide over the heads of Greeks to blackwash Greek history just to push their liberal agenda. It's presumptuous. BBC also portrayed Celts, Vikings, Anglo-Saxons or Romans as black with the lame excuse that black Brits shouldn't feel left out or discriminated when dealing with British history. How patronizing and belittling is that? As if blacks are puppies that desperately need the validation of SJWs/BBC. Ancient Greeks like ancient Romans were genetically and historically European/white. Fact. There is nothing racist about pointing that out. It doesn't matter what hair or eye color they had, whether they were pale or olive/tanned skinned etc. Plus there were in fact blond, red haired and paled skinned, blue eyed Greeks but zero black Greeks. Greeks called the ancient Nubians very politically incorrect- Ethiopians, burnt face. V Therefore when Brad Pitt plays Achilles despite not being a Greek it's still more accurate than a pitch black man playing Achilles.You don't understand that BBC twists and rewrites history and claims to show real history. Besides BBC should make movies about real African historical people instead to make blacks play white/Europeans heroes. As if blacks have nothing, no black historical or mythological people they can be proud of.

[@markpats290]

Achilles helmet was closed in the front ...not open . This open style helmet is used for movie purposes as not to hide the face.