Kind Odysseus of Ithaca, a character so badass even Sean Bean dosen’t die playing him
@julianmarpez39313 ай бұрын
It's been 20 years since this movie... Time for someone to film an Odyssey adaptation without gods and call it "Ithaca", maybe?? 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻
@dallesamllhals91613 ай бұрын
@@julianmarpez3931 20+ yo doggos Even PETA would be...
@ralph01493 ай бұрын
@@julianmarpez3931 I wouldn't trust them to do anything remotely good with the Odyssey these days. They should just review the one with Armand Assante.
@musonius.x3 ай бұрын
no doubt he didnt die because he dug a ditch somewhere)
@cleverusername93693 ай бұрын
For some reason I always forget Sean is in Troy
@stnk35963 ай бұрын
these long format breakdowns of whole movies are so good,keep em coming
@dallesamllhals91613 ай бұрын
'cause history is facts...untill we find something "new" 😲
@Wasev3 ай бұрын
I know it was already by one historian but I wanna see Dan Snow break down Braveheart lol
@jamesbarnett5273 ай бұрын
@@dallesamllhals9161 Yes that's how things work. Welcome to the world of beyond third grade understanding of how things work.
@TheTimBurr3 ай бұрын
Kingdom of Heaven should definitely be on the list! (directors cut please)
@allrequiredfields3 ай бұрын
@@dallesamllhals9161 Was this supposed to sound clever? Or make sense?
@sdingray3 ай бұрын
THE MAN, THE MYTH, THE LEGEND, ROEL "THE DITCH" KONIJNENDIJK
@skyhigh11543 ай бұрын
The Dutch ditch 😂😂
@Kremit_the_Forg3 ай бұрын
@@skyhigh1154 The Digging Dutchman?
@skyhigh11543 ай бұрын
@@Kremit_the_Forg 😜
@johnmcmanus24473 ай бұрын
You've heard of the Terminator. Now meet....the Excavator
@Ian-yf7uf3 ай бұрын
He's not a very good historian.
@alexanderwim31392 ай бұрын
I like the way Roel Konijnendijk explains what happened in reality. He "juggles" three things: 1) the original story from different sources and general knowledge about that time and those events; 2) understanding of why filmmakers made some changes; 3) keeping in mind how his explanations sound for non-historian viewers.
@Julia-lk8jnАй бұрын
4) strategically sensible use of ditches. . . . (I'm so sorry, couldn't stop myself.)
@woodsplitter3274Ай бұрын
The movie needs to simplify a lot of stuff.
@elywahl952025 күн бұрын
@@Julia-lk8jn bruh 😂😂😂
@markalexander60363 ай бұрын
"The are no pacts between lions and men." is a line that goes so hard. I didn't know it was taken directly from the Iliad itself, but it sure does sound like something an ancient greek action hero would say.
@diegorjalvarado2 ай бұрын
I think actually comes from aesops fables specifically the lionshare
@atroposz2 ай бұрын
Er, he says it was taken directly from The Illiad. which is about a century before Aesop's Fables, so if anything Aesop was quoting Homer (which would bee entirely plausible since Roel even says the Homeric poems were basically _the_ Greek literature that everyone would immediately know & recognize)
@johnmccracken3473Ай бұрын
Yes, its pretty much straight from the Iliad. and spoken by Acillies to Hector. He adds, "wolves and lambs can never be of one mind"
@vCLOWNSHOESv2 күн бұрын
I thought the whole movie was great.
@jacklambert15213 ай бұрын
Peter O'Toole's performance in Achilles' tent is beyond description. Some of the finest acting I've ever seen. He delivers every syllable with such gravitas, sorrow and respect in equal measure.
@karensilvera66943 ай бұрын
I agree completely. There was just something so unique about his performances.
@johnreed22783 ай бұрын
Absolutely, he made me forget I was watching a movie and lost in the moment. THAT is masterful acting!
@GreenFalcon9263 ай бұрын
What makes that scene so interesting, is that Peter hated this movie. He didn't enjoy any of it, yet still delivered a great performance.
@leobuscaglia55763 ай бұрын
My dad who is not much into movies was moved to tears by his acting in that scene. Peter O'Toole was truly one of the greats.
@withnail703 ай бұрын
When 'No Toole', as the Spitting Image generation will always remember him, gets down on one knee and continues pleading with Achilles to return Hector's body, it goes on cringe-makingly long. Typical Hollywood LCD overdoing things. That's probably why Our Pete hated it.
@welldonechar3 ай бұрын
Love how they blacked out all the "scary stuff" and then at 58:04 have a full on screen beheading
@ryanreviews85663 ай бұрын
editor got tired 😂😂
@ElliottPiano3 ай бұрын
😂😂😂😂
@thundabytevanguard95423 ай бұрын
They also didn't black out Patroclus neck getting color
@muge22 ай бұрын
and all the stabby stabs, penetration is the devils work :P
@Soloohara2 ай бұрын
@@ryanreviews8566 lol
@MasterFatness3 ай бұрын
Last time I was this early, they hadn't even started digging the ditches yet.
@gonefishing1673 ай бұрын
👍👍👍🤣🤣👵🇦🇺
@KS-xk2so3 ай бұрын
I saw this video and was like "Oh, new Ditch guy video!" lol and knew the comments would be full of ditch comments hahaha!
@tracymeahan3 ай бұрын
😂😂😂😂
@dallesamllhals91613 ай бұрын
so vikings = Way To Late when 1100-1200 BC?
@KS-xk2so3 ай бұрын
@@dallesamllhals9161 Vikings were more like 1000-800 BC, no? Also, don't you mean early lol
@yasuchika3 ай бұрын
First time I've actually watched a full breakdown without skipping anything. Roel is a joy to listen to.
@DaveBath3 ай бұрын
When it came out, I was SO relieved it wasn't swords ALL the time, that spears got as much as they did. The scene in the tent was damn close to perfect. I loved the way Hector fought workmanlike, Achilles was an inspired dancer - that was not realistic - but giving an idea of inspiration, of being a bit diviine, I "got" what they were doing. The start - when the guy got the spear thrown through the head, and you saw the graphic hole. That was PERFECT, a representation of all the graphic descriptions of how a weapon cut through that body part, then that, then the night descended on his eyes.
@27pattywhack23 ай бұрын
Should have dug a ditch around Achilles' heel
@KS-xk2so3 ай бұрын
This comment needs more likes lol
@emirbegi91553 ай бұрын
Hector also needed to dig a ditch around himself when he fought Achilles
@allshookup16403 ай бұрын
Or he could have just worn armor on his heels. Just an idea
@hellbound643 ай бұрын
What is the ditch joke can someone please explain
@david4rancibia343 ай бұрын
@@hellbound64 Joel made his famous first appearance on one of those videos of "expert rates scenes on movies" and he, being the realistic historical warfare expert that he is, commented on the surprising lack of ditches in popular media, "where's the ditch? You gotta have a ditch" "to defend winterfell from the army of the dead first you need to dig ditches....LOTS AND LOTS OF DITCHES"
@Eirik50493 ай бұрын
HistoryHit, make more episodes with Roel!!! He is the best guest on your show in my opinion!!! He's so interesting to listen to!
@KS-xk2so3 ай бұрын
I agree, give him his own series! We need more Ditch talk!
@le135793 ай бұрын
Tristan is great, too. Two things can be true at once. 😉
@zoltanszaszi22643 ай бұрын
HistoryHit, if you see this. We need him featured in the podcasts too. Especially The Ancients. That would be amazing, thanks.
@Boudicca5273 ай бұрын
I agree, give this man his own series please!
@AvoidTheCadaver3 ай бұрын
Maybe he'll start a channel and name it Ditch Talk
@lald013 ай бұрын
Considering this guy is obviously a major scholar of homeric literature, and loves the iliad. He's very fair and not set in his ways about the adaptation. It's refreshing.
@Igor_the_Mad3 ай бұрын
I think he understands that the basic goal the movie has is to restructure the plot into a more contemporary political narrative, and he doesn't mock it for that even as he points out how it twists or ignores the source material to suit that goal.
@michaelu30553 ай бұрын
@@Igor_the_Madif the movie didn't twist the source material, Apollo would have quite a bigger role in it 🤷
@Bazookatone13 ай бұрын
Indeed, he acknowledges that they have modified the story to include themes about nation building etc., but he accepts that great literature gets re interpreted by successive generations to suit their social norms
@Moobeus3 ай бұрын
Imagine modern audiences being shown a scene where, instead of fighting, Hector runs around the outskirts of Troy not once, not twice; but three times LMFAO The only people who criticize Troy for its “inaccuracy” are people who haven’t read the Iliad. 😂
@alexanderaugustus3 ай бұрын
Oh yeah he's a scholar of Ancient warfare and quite good at it :) and we were in the same year at university. Mad respect to his accomplishments!
@JosefinaCL3 ай бұрын
That scene of Priam asking for Hector’s body always makes me cry 😭 Peter O’Toole’s acting is unmatched 👌🏼
@JamesLee-ky4dx2 ай бұрын
“You sack of wine” is one of the greatest lines that I still say to this day
@Itisstillok9 күн бұрын
We have saying “you are a packet with shit”. On the one hand, we have not moved far from the Achaeans in terms of expressing emotions, but on the other hand, we lost a sophisticated choice of words
@Cailus35423 ай бұрын
Achilles cross-dressing to avoid going to war has to be one of the most hilarious plot points ever. When I was studying Ancient Greek in high school, and we reached this bit of the Iliad, we were laughing for quite a while. We were lucky enough to have a teacher who thoroughly enjoyed explaining these moments in the Iliad and the Odyssey.
@him0503 ай бұрын
I'm amazed that you reached that bit of the Iliad in high school considering that it's not in the Iliad.
@Cailus35423 ай бұрын
@@him050 Meh. It's been...yikes, seventeen years since then. I just remember our teacher telling us that story.
@KS-xk2so3 ай бұрын
@@Cailus3542 It's definitely a legit story I've heard before, even if its not directly in the Iliad.... from what I can recall of the story he's in hiding and the way they find him is by blowing war horns, and while all the other "ladies" react in horror, he immediately grabs for weapons, right?
@hellegennes3 ай бұрын
@@KS-xk2so It's in the Trojan cycle. It's like all the King Arthur myths which forms an epic cycle. It's not a single novel in the way we have stories today. Ancient tales were spoken way before they were written down and everyone was adding their own bit, which after centuries of retelling expanded into entire mythologies. Homer's epics are a retelling of part of these stories.
@pinkpenzu3 ай бұрын
Achilles is probably a twink
@dusan-renat3 ай бұрын
Notice the distinct lack of ditches around Troy. That's the main reason why it fell.
@joshuaprietophoto3 ай бұрын
Horses struggle to jump or roll over ditches. They'd have certainly helped.
@Jaded_Jester3 ай бұрын
Yep. They held out for 10 years without ditches so that must be why they fell. It had nothing to do with the Trojans opening/destroying the gate to bring in that horse full of soldiers.
@TeutonicEmperor11983 ай бұрын
If I'm not mistaken Troy used to have a mega ditch around her wall, called a moat!
@wuhhlfarg3532 ай бұрын
This dude is the david goggins of ditches
@FolksFan2 ай бұрын
@@Jaded_Jester have you ever tried to pull a huge wooden horse over a ditch? ;) No this is about Roel emphasizing very much the importance of ditches in other videos.
@huzaifawajid43333 ай бұрын
This channel should 100 percent do the deep dive for kingdom of heaven directors cut.
@JackSmith-ns1uq2 ай бұрын
I agree, although the actual history of the crusades is a bit taboo so Im not surprised
@BwInNewJersey2 ай бұрын
A very well read and wise former co-worker of mine once said Kingdom of Heaven was impressively accurate.
@Swarm5092 ай бұрын
The movie trys to be fair (ish) to all sides so it would be an interesting discussion. I expect like any of these kind of movies it touches of things being correct, just out of order by time/location or who does it.
@TypdersichderTypnenn2 ай бұрын
@@JackSmith-ns1uq How is it taboo?
@StonedCabbage2 ай бұрын
@@JackSmith-ns1uqHow is history considered Taboo?? Wars over religion has always existed and will always exist. Nothing taboo about the subject matter of the Crusades.
@cas19943 ай бұрын
Every time I feel like taking a break from ditch digging, roel drops a video and I get right back to work....I currently have 87km dug up
@abrahamlincoln84773 ай бұрын
Whoever put the Kill Bill music when Odysseus sees the horse at 52:10 deserves a raise 😂
@georgezachos73223 ай бұрын
That was an hour? Seriously, that felt like 20 minutes. Well done ditch historian, you're really good at this!
@Grivian3 ай бұрын
Agreed. Really interesting and great video
@Adamantos-Elean2 ай бұрын
he is mediocre at best, he can't even name the Hellenes properly.
@canchero7242 ай бұрын
He didn't even mention a ditch not once! Not a single time! I'm gutted.
@georgezachos73222 ай бұрын
@@Adamantos-Elean Give it a rest. He's great at what he does, don't be a bitch about it.
@Adamantos-Elean2 ай бұрын
@@georgezachos7322 Big tough keyboard warrior, why don't you talk like that in person? You can still type after you shit your teeth.
@harryrabbit28703 ай бұрын
Dr. Konijnendijk is one of You Tube's greatest treasures. Love seeing him in videos. Thanks.
@m420-nd1if3 ай бұрын
Dr. Kingdick? lol
@SpermGod2 ай бұрын
i really dig this guy
@him0503 ай бұрын
I consider myself a bit of a history buff, but I'm not ashamed to say that I love this movie. There's just something about it.
@jeffbachman29493 ай бұрын
@@him050 it really does as he says have some really good scenes scattered throughout it
@gbarberis74023 ай бұрын
That movie is so epic
@him0503 ай бұрын
@@gbarberis7402 you seen the scenes on KZbin with the original score before they changed it last minute? They’re so cool!
@KS-xk2so3 ай бұрын
I'd agree. Incredibly innaccurate, but who cares? They certainly nail the legacy of Achilles warrior ways, and his combat scenes look incredible. I think part of the reason I enjoy it is I find the real story kind of gets cock blocked by the gods all the time.... like sometimes I want them to just shut it and let me enjoy a regular war epic.... given that the movie pretty much removes them, it kinda has that vibe. I'm also glad they leaned into making Paris a bitch too..... though him actually killing Achilles at the end pisses me off. They should've had Paris trip and fall into a cart full of horse shit and that accidentally bumps a random crossbow that goes off and gets Achilles completely by accident or something. Anything would've been better than what they went with.
@MrIlleism3 ай бұрын
Has a horse but no ditch. Come on
@everydaylifez3 ай бұрын
So cool that we got such an extended cut version of this. Gold! Thanks!
@xvise6619 күн бұрын
I didn't look at the runtime for this video and thought this would be one of those 10 minute + 1 second videos, and then eventually after like 15minutes i'm like "we're still at the start of the movie wtf", I'm so happy this most critical story to human history gets this long thorough breakdown.
@mnk90733 ай бұрын
The ending with the Troyans fleeing the sacked city is also a nice nod to the _Aeneid._
@DaveBath3 ай бұрын
The better nod to The Aeneid would have been to make Aeneas a whiny so-and-so. Worst hero ever. (Maybe I'm biased because I got utterly sick of translating "pius aeneas" a million times when I was a schoolboy)
@TeutonicEmperor11983 ай бұрын
@@DaveBath The Latin language is a bitch!
@MarvinT06063 ай бұрын
The biggest nod was Paris handing the Sword of Troy to _Aeneas_ himself carrying his old father out of the palace
@commanderiosifstalin4938Ай бұрын
@@MarvinT0606 Because Paris was supposed to die long before Troy fell. Aneneas was the one who tried to rescue as many Trojians as possible and evacuated them from the fallen city.
@OcarinaSapphr-3 ай бұрын
It's a shame the good doctor missed mentioning that the dancing girls at the party - they wore very reasonable interpretations of the Minoan/ Mycenean fashions that predominated the proto-Greek culture of the time. They showed his dog! Odysseus' dog is surprisingly, a relatively important character in his story; he saved his owner when younger, in a boar hunt (leaving Odysseus with a scar on his leg instead of- you know, dead), & recognises him before anyone else, on his return (after essentially 20 years away)- he's pretty much just holding onto life until his master returns, before dying at a grand old age for a dog...
@rustomkanishka3 ай бұрын
Yeah, that part sucked donkey balls. No one recognises him, and he meets his bestest goodest friend and then Argos dies. I'd start the butchery right there.
@TeutonicEmperor11983 ай бұрын
Argos was the bestest boy in history! He refused to die until he saw his master after more than 20 years.
@ΑΝΑΣΤΑΣΊΑΜΟΙΡΑ2 ай бұрын
@@OcarinaSapphr- I get so emotional when I get to that point!
@douglasdea6372 ай бұрын
My favorite moment of The Odyssey, when he greets his dog at the gate.
@Raztin1-tl6giАй бұрын
He's an historian, he studies concepts in this video, not archaeology
@Rome.s_Greatest_Enemy3 ай бұрын
Yayyy any episode with Ditchguy is surely a classic 🗿🗿
@le135793 ай бұрын
And throw rocks.
@Rome.s_Greatest_Enemy3 ай бұрын
@@le13579 and dig ditches too
@bryanmatthews23703 ай бұрын
I wish they would've done an odysseus movie, Sean Bean did so great in that role..and he didn't die in a movie!
@HanaVys2 ай бұрын
I think an Odysseus movie has just been finished, featuring Ralph Fiennes and Juliette Binoche.
@bryanmatthews23702 ай бұрын
@@HanaVys I'm not sure I know those names, not ringing any bells. I just want Sean Bean to do it because I thought he did well in that role and I love his voice, his opening narration to Troy is great
@aintfalco7968Ай бұрын
Odysseus is being played by Lord Voldemort if that rings any bells lol
@bryanmatthews2370Ай бұрын
@@aintfalco7968 ohhhh, him. I think I know him
@hellspawnx352620 күн бұрын
@@HanaVys The return. I can't wait to see the movie 😂
@Pepsi_AddictedАй бұрын
00:27 this historian doesn't even look that ancient
@yolkiandeji76493 ай бұрын
I had to stop digging ditches to watch this video.
@אורןוינטראוב3 ай бұрын
genius
@KS-xk2so3 ай бұрын
You must be incredibly safe. I bet you sleep soundly every night.
@HowardLogan-gv5kc3 ай бұрын
*dig ditches WHILE watching the video 😏
@seth13713 ай бұрын
Best comment
@A0A4ful3 ай бұрын
Just strap a selfie stick to your spade, watch the video, and keep digging, for Zeus' sake!
@MartijnterHaar3 ай бұрын
Roel Konijnendijk, ancient historian at Oxford, decided to represent his Dutch roots by not showing the Iliad in original Greek or an English translation, but the Dutch Salamander series paperback.
@DrRoelKonijnendijk3 ай бұрын
Nog van mn ouders gekregen toen ik nog maar een klein greppelgravertje was
@le135793 ай бұрын
Oh wow. I assumed he was Icelandic for some reason. Another thing that I learnt today.
@kristofmaenhout72143 ай бұрын
@@DrRoelKonijnendijk Such as shame this nice comment is hidden... and probably can't be translated properly by Google 😊
@Heylon13133 ай бұрын
@@kristofmaenhout7214 it seems that he referred to himself as a kid as a "little ditch digger", I believe it is 100% accurate.
@DanSmith-j8y3 ай бұрын
Ancient? He doesn't look that old.
@Kermitthebadger3 ай бұрын
I could listen to this guy talk for hours, give him a podcast!
@katieheys30073 ай бұрын
I would love this. He and a lay person could talk about history for 45-60 minutes once a week or so.
@KS-xk2so3 ай бұрын
I'd listen, but only if the podcast has a clever name about Ditches lol
@Scott.webb643 ай бұрын
Id love to take classes he teaches.
@andytopley3143 ай бұрын
@@KS-xk2so 'Ditching Bad History' or 'Digging for the Truth on History' if he wants to go more archaeological.
@KS-xk2so3 ай бұрын
@@andytopley314 see I was thinking more "Ditch, please!" where he reads history questions submitted by viewers and sassily corrects them lol
@seanbinkley73632 ай бұрын
I've seen "Troy" several times but I never noticed the lamas in that one scene until now lol. I feel like that's such a Hollywood producer move. Producer: "We need more farm animals for this scene!" Assistant: "Well we have lamas from some local people we could borrow but that wouldn't' be historically accur..." Producer: "Put em in!" (slams the table)
@aintfalco7968Ай бұрын
It’s also inaccurate that the trojans were riding horses, though they were depicted as being horse enthusiasts. Horses were for pulling chariots in the bronze age, not riding.
@lord-licht15 күн бұрын
I ADORE the way he gives insight, how knowledgeable he is and how fun it is to listen to him. PLEASE MORE.
@farrelfoster-lynam66833 ай бұрын
Thanks for the deep dive. Greek mythology was always my Achilles' horse
@spqr493 ай бұрын
🤣
@TeutonicEmperor11983 ай бұрын
You should be more cautious. People are cunning and may use Trojan heels to betray you!
@TheBlacOfficial3 ай бұрын
The biggest lesson Troy and the source material itself teaches is that, while Achilles might seem the "cooler" dude at first glance, you should always strive to be more like Hector
@TheWildManEnkidu3 ай бұрын
"No winning words about death to me, shining Odysseus! By god, I’d rather slave on earth for another man - some dirt-poor tenant farmer who scrapes to keep alive - than rule down here over all the breathless dead." : Achilles, the Odyssey.
@david4rancibia343 ай бұрын
All heroes have good and bad moments, they are human, flawed, chasing honor, glory and happiness, all have some good in them. Except Agamemnon, fuck that guy
@AndrewNiccol3 ай бұрын
Do you even read the source material Iliad? In Iliad Achilles was the true hero, but Hector wasn't.
@adamantu3 ай бұрын
@@AndrewNiccolTrue, Achilles has the quintessential hero arc. But Hector is no villain, he is the tragic hero, fighting out of duty, to preserve what he loves, his city, his wife, his children. He has to fight, it was not his choice. And he only faces Achilles in a duel because he gets tricked by the gods, because they have destined him to die. He might not be the hero of the story, but you would rather like to have someone like him as your neighbor than Achilles
@GothPaoki3 ай бұрын
Well he did doom his people by enabling his horny brother. I guess that's a leader to be praised ...
@MymilanitalyBlogspot3 ай бұрын
Very clever intro of Odysseus/Ulysses: patting his faithful dog, the only one - never mind the number of years passed - who will recognize him when he returns in the sequel, The Odyssey.
@arek3143 ай бұрын
That was some old dog as siege took 10 years, and another 10 for Odyseus' trip back
@szabok19992 ай бұрын
@@arek314Poor dog died in that very moment though. It stayed alive to see its master again.
@aquamarine9991126 күн бұрын
@@arek314 I just finished The Odyssey. I was always confused while reading - was Odyseus gone for 10 or 20 years? But now it makes sense - it was 20 years including the siege. Yep, that's an old dog - 140 human years at least. Maybe it was supposed to be a cat.
@rashfield15123 ай бұрын
He always have the best comments delivered to us in the most exciting way. Makes me wanna sign up for one of his class.
@Grayman7202 ай бұрын
Roel Konijnendijk needs his own Channel, the world needs more Konijnendijk!
@Tadicuslegion783 ай бұрын
aka Sean Bean manages to survive a full movie without dying.
@KS-xk2so3 ай бұрын
Must've actually dug a ditch for once to protect himself.
@musonius.x3 ай бұрын
@@KS-xk2so he is the one who knew the secret of staying alive)
@Tony114423 ай бұрын
Thank the gods, the old and the new!
@le135793 ай бұрын
@@KS-xk2so And thrown some rocks... 😉
@sc0ttishnutj0b753 ай бұрын
He probably died inside after reading the script but had bills to pay
@ceilingsintheireyes62883 ай бұрын
Love how the video editor cut out Menelaus getting stabbed by Hector but left in Patroclus’ throat being cut which is far worse 😂
@divalsiqueiraneto52233 ай бұрын
I could hear this man talk about history for days! Bring him back as much as you can
@BagsyBoi3 ай бұрын
Another fascinating video by Dr Konijnendijk, interesting comparisons to the source material, hugely informative and some really great insights into ancient Greek society as well, can't wait for more.
@JJBeauregard12 ай бұрын
Professor Konijnendijk is really awesome. It's super engaging to listen to him because you can just feel his immense passion for these topics. I hope we get to see him in more videos like this! :)
@AceMoonshot3 ай бұрын
I liked Terry Prachett's version of Helen. Elenor of Tsort. By the time Rincewind and crew show up to "rescue" her, the war has been going on ten years. Eric was expecting to see the face that launched a thousand ships. So he is disappointed to find her a rather plump mother of seven children, with bit of a squint and the beginnings of a mustache.
@Luanna8013 ай бұрын
13:57 I just want to point out that in addition to the other aspects of their relationship, making Patroclus Achilles' YOUNGER cousin that Achilles has to look after is exactly the opposite of what the Iliad tells us. There's literally a scene where we're told that before they went off to war, Patroclus' father reminded him that HE needed to look out for Achilles and give him good advice because HE was the older of the two.
@hermanoguimaraes63433 ай бұрын
They were lovers
@zaja24183 ай бұрын
@@hermanoguimaraes6343 They also both slept apart and liked having sex with (enslaved) women, according to the Iliad.
@zaja24183 ай бұрын
The actor who plays Eudoros should've played Patroclus, if they wanted to be more accurate to the poem.
@psarri723 ай бұрын
@@hermanoguimaraes6343 they were not, there is no mention of any of that in the original story. That garbage was added by British scholars in the 70s
@hermanoguimaraes63433 ай бұрын
@@psarri72 Yes they were and there are a BUNCH of evidences for that. As the same way Alexander and Hephaestion were definitely lovers. Your christian homophobics opinions do not matter.
@StrayCatInTheStreets3 ай бұрын
Those Llamas are not Llamas. They are late bronze age Anatolian ditch camels used by the Trojans to dig ditches.
@DrRoelKonijnendijk3 ай бұрын
Ah well in that case fair enough
@michelslaura3 ай бұрын
Awesome !😅
@TeutonicEmperor11983 ай бұрын
they never used them though! There were no ditches to be seen!
@Philusteen3 ай бұрын
(burp) I've been called worse..... 😂 🐪
@StrayCatInTheStreets3 ай бұрын
@TeutonicEmperor1198 they were caught off guard completely by surprise. It was the Pearl Harbour of it's day.
@samright46613 ай бұрын
Am I the only person that actually liked the Movie? It’s amazing that you know all this information, I could listen to you talk about the Ancient world all day! Great teacher
@Bazookatone13 ай бұрын
No, there are many of us, but we live in hiding
@xKinjax3 ай бұрын
It's a fun movie, a lot of people like it. I enjoy it as well mostly due to the fantastic performances from the cast. But from a historical accuracy standpoint it's pretty much on Braveheart level.
@samright46613 ай бұрын
@@xKinjax It’s not as bad as Napoleon
@xKinjax3 ай бұрын
@@samright4661 true, it's hard to get to that level of bad. But somehow Ridley Scott seems to be able to consistently achieve it. Kingdom of Heaven was just as horrible from a historical standpoint. Painting Europe as a dark age cesspit when it was literally going through a wealthy renaissance period due to the success of the previous crusade, making Balian some young country bumpkin that's somehow fantastic at everything when in reality he was already a middle-aged man by that point who, thanks to his noble birth had been trained since childhood in all the things he's good at in the movie. The list just goes on and on with the worst being the character assassinations of Sybilla and Guy de Lusignan.
@samright46613 ай бұрын
@@xKinjax Yep, he painted Knights Templars as bad guys. They was very honorable people he propped up Muslims very unfairly
@theactuarialdatascientist18 күн бұрын
14:06 I love this mans ability to throw shade so eloquently
@jwb5903 ай бұрын
It makes me inexplicably happy to see this brilliant dude get excited about some of the scenes that were done well.
@Rattenhoofd3 ай бұрын
Ditch Daddy back at it again. I just can't get enough of this stuff.
@NEBE03 ай бұрын
Never have I clicked so fast on a Ditch Lord video
@DMSBrian242 ай бұрын
Interesting that Illiad depicts duels as short because that's exactly what they would be in real life, most duels last a few seconds.
@sercastamere98533 ай бұрын
I think too many people focus on the historical aspects of this film which is based on a LEGEND. This film is damn near PERFECT as far as general storytelling goes, acting is amazing, nearly every scene is iconic. We don't get movies like this nearly as often these days, Dune 2 being a notable and welcome exception.
@Civ333 ай бұрын
I like how he points out that, historically, duels didn't really settle conflicts between major powers, unlike what is often portrayed in movies. That makes a lot of sense.
@victorpueyo96003 ай бұрын
Thanks to Roel, I can’t stop checking every fortificación in any game, film, show and even real life without looking for the ditch.
@brettd23083 ай бұрын
I will always listen to Roel Konijnendijk talk about ancient warfare.
@theprometheu53 ай бұрын
These deep dive videos aree the peak of format, keep them coming please!
@juliavanhoose2 ай бұрын
Oh Roel. I could listen to him for hours. Really. More please.
@zippyfinleyadventures3 ай бұрын
The Ditch Lord returneth
@HowardLogan-gv5kc3 ай бұрын
We are not worthy! We are not worthy!
@jdelark64283 ай бұрын
Praise be the ditch!
@nazirkazi25883 ай бұрын
May there be ditches!
@islammehmeov23343 ай бұрын
Priam: you had taken everything from me my Eldest Son air to my Throne Defender of my Kingdom 😢 Achilles: What about Paris? Priam: I sed you had taken everything from me Achilles 😢
@rustomkanishka3 ай бұрын
There's a bit that the doctor doesn't mention. King Priam tells Achilles to stop being a dick. Heroes deserve to be sent off properly. Hector did his duty and died for his country. Achilles is being difficult by insulting his memory and his body over his internal rage. That is Hubris. Gods don't like that. Besides, Hector is in the afterlife but soon, Achilles will be also.
@lyalclough26123 ай бұрын
Excellent breakdown as always. Thanks. I especially appreciate that you put things in the proper context: there's the source material and there's the fact that this is a modern movie.
@Niveama4682 ай бұрын
I've always loved the film and I had never really appreciated how much of the Iliad it actually quoted, and at the end of the video it is emphasised that some of the best quotes that feel "modern" are directly from the poem.
@chriscranston7189Күн бұрын
Bro is a natural teacher. He makes a historical discussion fun and interesting.
@Wychinsmom3 ай бұрын
I love the movie but I love listening to Roel Konijnendijk more. I learn so much every time I hear Roel.
@Desmond173 ай бұрын
Those comments are ditching hilarious !! As far as the movie, it's one of my guilty pleasures : it's definitely not an accurate movie, or really even a "good" one. But there's so many great actors in it that i can't help but sort of enjoy it ...
@hassan139742 ай бұрын
The best movie ive ever seen
@TypicalBricks174Ай бұрын
Sean Bean as Odysseus was great. I wish we got an Odyssey sequel with him.
@tj23753 ай бұрын
That detail of coins didn't exist yet is priceless😂😂😂
@HowardLogan-gv5kc3 ай бұрын
I saw what you did there 🤔😏
@Unknown-jt1jo3 ай бұрын
Funnily enough, some of the earliest coins ever found are from Lydia--an ancient kingdom that was close to the historical Troy. The coins were from around 600-650 BC, though, whereas the Trojan War (if it even happened) is supposed to have occurred centuries before that, in the 12th-13th centuries BC.
@TeutonicEmperor11983 ай бұрын
@@Unknown-jt1jo You know what? I have learned about the Homeric epics since the days of my early childhood (since here in Greece the Epics are a big deal) and since my 14 years of age I knew that coins were a 7th century Anatolian invention and yet I never combined those 2 pieces of information together and discredit Homer for anachronism!
@Uliburgh223 ай бұрын
I like how he actually respects some of the movie’s own interpretation of the Iliad, while also telling you how exactly how it was in the Iliad. Some reviewers will just down right berate movies’ interpretations of real life events
@literallyjudas21572 күн бұрын
I watched this film so many times as a kid, when it was one of the only DVDs I had, and seeing a mythology-history breakdown of all these details that I mostly remember just from sheer repetition is absolutely fascinating.
@vikingsundlof90403 ай бұрын
WER'E DIGGING OUR WAY OUT OF TROY WITH THIS ONE BOYS!
@KS-xk2so3 ай бұрын
GRAB YER SHOVELS LADS!!!
@HowardLogan-gv5kc3 ай бұрын
I'm already half way under the walls of Troy! 😤
@michaelu30553 ай бұрын
I'll bring the dynamite 🧨
@mandyhildebrandt52553 ай бұрын
"Priam faints like a Victorian" 🤣🤣🤣
@slowswimmer91693 ай бұрын
well Peter O Tool was probably the most Victorian modern man
@TheEternalElir3 ай бұрын
I love this guy. Wish I had a teacher like him in my history class
@aleatharhea3 ай бұрын
I really enjoyed this. I was passingly familiar with the themes and main characters of The Iliad and the Odyssey, but have never read them, except for the odd passage or two in high school. I've been a casual fan of Greek mythology since childhood. I listened to Stephen Frye's book, Troy, several times, and Mythos and Heroes even more. After watching this, I note he stuck closely to the source material with his own delightful storytelling. I was very entertained by your video and loved hearing you tie together - for me - history, The Iliad (and to a lesser extent, The Odyssey), and my beloved Mythos trilogy. Subscribed!
@jancello3 ай бұрын
One detail no one ever points out in the duel between Hector and Achilles is that, notwithstanding all the flashy fight that precedes it, the death blow dealt to Hector is exactly the same as described in the poem: Achilles' spear, lost earlier in the fight (by breaking instead of throwing) and retrieved (by disarming Hector who picked it up, instead of Athena's intervention), is thrust into Hector at the junction between neck and shoulder (should have been through a gap in armour, not through armour). It's a tiny detail but it makes be happy to notice it.
@joaquindominguezarduengo72983 ай бұрын
Boibe (Βοίβη) appears once in the catalogue of the ships (2.712). Apparently, it was a city in Thessaly. Eumelus is said to come from there and bring eleven ships with him (2.713). No idea why they decided to include a random city that is only mentioned once and is related to a hero who doesn't even appear in the movie.
@kevinmorgan29683 ай бұрын
Presumably because they had presented Thessaly as a place to be conquered to secure the Greek empire along with Troy, the map maker was being clever by sneaking in a little nugget to support the script. Or cocaine. Never doubt the power of cocaine in Hollywood.
@fristi613 ай бұрын
@@kevinmorgan2968 I wouldn't be surprised if in earlier versions of the script the site of the opening battle and names of the involved characters were mentioned in more detail, but later simplified away for the sake of not forcing the audience to remember too many names in a short span of time, as sometimes happens. Inclusion of "Boibe" on the map may be an artefact of that or something
@ΑΝΑΣΤΑΣΊΑΜΟΙΡΑ2 ай бұрын
@@joaquindominguezarduengo7298 Thessaly Thessalia in Greek (it's still called the same even now by the way) means Thesis alós and it's a very old name when all the place was a big lake so emense it looked like sea .In Homer the sea is Als -alós !Alati =salt comes from the root!Thanks!
@ΑΝΑΣΤΑΣΊΑΜΟΙΡΑ2 ай бұрын
@@kevinmorgan2968 I am sorry but your knowledge of ancient Mediterranean history Greeks were and are Cretans Aioleis Ionians Thessalians Macedonians and they also were almost in every shore around Mediterranean.The evidence of this is that only Hellenes could take part in Olympic games !They spoke the same language and had the same gods !You better study some more !
@ΑΝΑΣΤΑΣΊΑΜΟΙΡΑ2 ай бұрын
@@kevinmorgan2968 And by the way there was never a Greek empire in ancient Greece There were city states that frequently fought with one another!When you say empire you mean Roman empire and later the Eastern Roman empire !Look you probably have some dislike for Greek history but there's no good or bad in history and that is exactly! history!
@KS-xk2so3 ай бұрын
I like that one scene where the Trojan King asks his General if they can win, and the General is like "Our walls have never been breached, we have the finest archers in the world, and.... we... have DITCHES! YES, WE CAN WIN!"
@ernimuja69913 ай бұрын
In the story Hellen did not leave with Paris, she was kidnapped. This is presented as a modern love story but it did not work like that back in the day. Not only was Menaleus' honor as husband tarnished by also Hellen's as wife. This story does not start with Hellen but with the apple of Discord. And Aphrodite straight up forced Hellen to be grape by Paris. Also everybody hates Paris, not just the Greeks but the Torjans too curse him every time they address him.
@mattandrews25943 ай бұрын
This adaptation deliberately left out portraying the Greek Gods or their involvement. It was more realistic by design, and never intended to be a faithful adaptation of the Illiad.
@digitaljanus3 ай бұрын
If in the myths a mortal is compelled by Aphrodite to fall in love with another, is that the god "forcing" themselves on the mortal, or is that a metaphor for how ancient people would have interpreted lust or attraction? They didn't have psychology or understanding of hormones, "the gods did it" was their go-to answer for the otherwise unexplainable.
@nvera23 ай бұрын
Also, Paris stole Menelaus treasures as well. And by abducting/seducing his host's wife, he broke the guest right, a huge taboo to the ancient Greeks and it was seen as an affront to Zeus himself, the patron of hospitality. In a way, it was some sort of holy war for the Greeks, to avenge the honor of Zeus. And that's without considering that Menelaus was ruling Sparta in right of his marriage to Helen, the daughter of the previous king. He kinda had to get her back.
@aquamarine9991126 күн бұрын
@@nvera2 Yeah, that's the repetitive theme in the Odyssey, the custom of giving gifts (not your spouse!) to guests. Having read that book first, I'm acutely aware of the dishonor of Paris's conduct.
@Hugebull8 күн бұрын
@@mattandrews2594 That is a terrible take. When Odysseus sneaks into Troy, Helen sees him. And she begs him to take her back to take her back to the husband Menelaus and their child. And Helen and Menelaus have a happy ending when they return back to Sparta. She did not willingly fall for Paris, and she did not go to Troy willingly. And she is not blamed for the act. Hence, the happy ending with her husband in Sparta. I understand leaving out the gods from the story to avoid making it a fantasy movie in the eyes of a modern audience. But completely changing the main characters and the situations they are in, is deceptive and wrong.
@Phelixc3 ай бұрын
I really like videoes of this guy. He can tell you about the factual mistakes and what is incorrect, without being condescending. He can praise the movie despite it's mistakes (however dubious it might be), being able to see the value as an entertainment product despite it not being correct like a documentary.
@Julia-lk8jnАй бұрын
I wouldn't even say "mistakes", because it's not like the writers somehow didn't notice all the instances of gods playing with the hero's like a six year old with his action hero figures. They just made the reasonable decision to leave the whole supernatural out, and have fights last longer than three seconds. I very much approve that, just as I liked including the Homeric mind-set of heros, and the importance of gifts, funerals, decorum and so on. It is so, so, _so_ rare for a movie to not just implant 20th / 22st century mind sets & values into historical characters, so I thoroughly enjoy it when it happens.
@TheBasedTyrant2 ай бұрын
I got an ad for Trojan condoms, the algorithm is making a joke.
@andrik9593 ай бұрын
No matter what people say about this movie, no one can deny that the costume design is absolutely top notch especially Achilles armor
@johngeralt3 ай бұрын
I think it received a nomination for that category.
@divicospower91122 ай бұрын
The weapons are a joke. Such a disgrace. The weapon of Ajax being the worst ever made. Even Conan had better weapons.
@mikeconleyphotography3 ай бұрын
I enjoyed Dr Konijnendijk's description of the fighting of duels, with regard to the man-to-man fight between Achilles and Hector in the film, and how in all the original material these were over in two or three strokes, rather than being long, drawn-out battles. And, in fact, if you watch fencing or swordfight re-creations you'll see that's the case: the action is so swift you can only barely follow it, and the point is scored in seconds. (Admittedly, the greatest swordfight on film, in Richard Lester's The Three Musketeers, goes on quite a bit, but, again, that's a cinematic treatment.) The level of concentration and skill required to actually engage in one of these types of fights is utterly beyond me. Of course, if they'd had a ditch, maybe it really would have gone on that long.
@langhamp89123 ай бұрын
I don't know how Troy could have been made similar to the book/poem without being a bit goofy, because of the odd nature of the gods being prevalent. One can't help but think of, "Clash of the Titans" if they were to manifest the gods, but not putting the gods in the movie kinda removes the motivation of, well, everyone.
@jeffbachman29493 ай бұрын
@@langhamp8912 yeah taking the gods out it's basically just another war film. Not necessarily a bad thing but yeah
@dziubo12 ай бұрын
Another at least one hour story re-revealed to me by Roel, and - again - well spent time! It takes few momnts to realize the mastery of language of historian... Roel, how you tell us the differences to originals is one thing, but the craftmanship of your storytelling is amazing!
@dougmorrow7463 ай бұрын
Wonderful analysis and "backstory." One thing I'm curious about is that some people suggest the "Trojan Horse" was actually a metaphor for or badly remembered story of a battering ram used on the walls or gates of Troy: men hidden inside a protective structure, wet hides over the structure to protect from fire thrown down from Troy's walls, the actual battering ram having a sculpted bronze head of a horse, the Trojan Horse breeching the walls of Troy (granted, with a bit more blood and guts) etc. I'm very interested in your take on this possibility. All and all, loved it, and you have yourself a new subscriber.
@acdragonrider3 ай бұрын
40:21: let’s be real though. A full out melee duel is more exciting than a few javelin throws.
@hellegennes3 ай бұрын
Most written works fail to make battles exciting. Tolkien was horrible with this, for example. Of course Iliad's battles are more realistic then either Tolkien's or the duel from most movies, including this one.
@magniwalterbutnotwaltermag14793 ай бұрын
@@hellegennesTolkien also actively hated battles since he was a vet himself so I understand why he would gloss over it when it could glorify violence, he's more comfortable with showing a battle's aftermath. Weirdly enough the best combat I've read is from a Japanese light novel about a magical ww1 lol. From realistic call-outs and tactics to actually engaging dogfights. Stormlight Archives makes for good combat too.
@Pele3163 ай бұрын
Troy! The story of when leaders' thirst is too great and everyone else suffers for it.
@Shinokai3 ай бұрын
Amazing video. I might have just added, at the end, the fact that they represented Paris and the rest fleeing was actually a call back to another ancient text, the Aeneid, where a group of Trojans escape from the burning city, and then end up founding Rome. It would have been a nice add on, also considering that other sources were in some way added to the Iliad for completion of the saga of Troy
@Patrice7803 ай бұрын
Troy was written by David Benioff, who seems to be very good when given tangible source material to adapt for the screen
@szabok19992 ай бұрын
"While Troy kind of forgot about the greek fleet, and Agamemnon's forces, they certainly haven't forgotten about them..."
@Kozu6043 ай бұрын
I saw this in my list and said out loud "Aaaaw yes, Dr Ditches is back!"
@connorthompson83763 ай бұрын
I liked the fact that when the Trojans are fleeing through the hidden passage, Paris actually gives his sword to a young Aeneas . It’s a good nod to Virgil’s epic, which was a sort of sequel, and that poem directly, says that this young man will found his own kingdom who is descendants will go on to found Rome.
@kokuinomusume3 ай бұрын
Aeneas is both the second cousin (his dad Anchises was a cousin of Priam) and brother in law of Paris (his wife Creusa is Priam's daughter and Paris' sister). The movie does away with Priam's very large family, starting with his wife Hecuba and some of his children, like Cassandra.
@kokemon843 ай бұрын
Whis is most likely false anyway lol. We all know that Rome was founded by the pups of a she wolf! 😂
@spqr493 ай бұрын
@@kokemon84 Aeneas founds the Latium, which later becomes the site Rome. Aeneas is a couple hundred years before Romulus and Remus.
@kokemon843 ай бұрын
@@spqr49 except there is no good reason to believe any of that happened
@spqr493 ай бұрын
@@kokemon84 well yeah, i think that goes without saying lol
@nadeemkhan-qe7dx6 күн бұрын
I have watched the movie twice,but I enjoyed the beautiful commentary more than the movie. Thanks sir.
@Marcelo83uk2 ай бұрын
Absolutely loved this... brilliantly done ✌️ "Here lies Hector, the fool who thought he killed achilles!" Love that line
@edwardshalash26073 ай бұрын
Amazing episode... I can't have enough of this man. Could you do a deep dive on the movie "Kingdom of Heaven"
@Julia-lk8jnАй бұрын
Ohhhh, seconded. Although that's probably not Konijnendijk area of expertise; I think he's for Antiquity warfare. Of course, I would love to be wrong about that if it means getting a Kingdom of Heaven Deep Dive.
@rixo66013 ай бұрын
Wish he had spoken of Ajax’s portrayal and how his death diverges greatly from the his death in some of the stories
@mrhumble29372 ай бұрын
Yea he skipped that battle almost like it was accidentally edited out.
@bspitz93 ай бұрын
I need this man to do weekly deep dives 😅
@Unknown-jt1jo3 ай бұрын
Sometimes he does deep dives into ditches.
@DavidEllis9410 күн бұрын
Lately, I've found it very interesting how references to Achilles and cultural memory seem to always present Achilles as if he was.... idk, just a particularly great fighter who happened to be leading a company of renowned soldiers, as if they were mercenaries or something. Odysseus, we remember as king of Ithaca, Menelaus king of Sparta, Agamemnon the king of Mykenai, etc. Achilles just seems to get remembered as some warrior. But he was the son of the King Peleus of Phtia. Achilles was a prince, leading the Phtian contingent of Agamemnon's coalition.
@cyranojohnson87713 ай бұрын
The only pity about this video is that it used the "director's cut" of Troy, which is mostly proof that some ideas belong on the cutting room floor. Watching the theatrical release, you're spared Priam fainting and begging Agamenon to have mercy for the children, and that's good, because those are terrible ideas that undercut the character. You're also spared the ridiculously overbearing "improved" music for the Hector-Achilles duel, and get the vastly superior stripped-down mostly-percussion track instead. Every time I see the director's cut, that stuff grates. The duel scene in particularly feels just *wrong* without the original music. That said, this is a great breakdown and genuinely informative. I enjoyed it.
@PhillipMuchiri3 ай бұрын
Yes!! Ditch guy doing one of my all tim favorite clips..