Ancient Warfare and Modern Fantasy (with Bret Devereaux)

In this episode of the Toldinstone Podcast, Dr. Bret Devereaux (the blogger behind "A Collection of Unmitigated Pedantry") discusses the relationships between fantasy and ancient history - and why historical accuracy matters, even in fiction.
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Chapters:
0:00 How far could a troll toss a soldier?
5:19 Thinking with the Siege of Gondor
17:05 Horses are not battering rams
28:14 Steppe horse archers were terrifying
33:40 Gondor isn't Byzantium...
35:32 And Westeros isn't Medieval Europe
48:31 Why historical accuracy matters in fiction
53:01 The past is a different country

[@davidec.4021]

I’d love literal hundreds of hours of conversations like this one. Brilliant brilliant work my friend

[@goodknightcarolina]

Stole the words from my keyboard

[@andreasabueid5685]

Mom o

[@isaiahgarner3615]

Bret Devereaux was actually one of my professors at UNC-Chapel Hill! I loved his class on the global history of warfare and can't think of a better guest to have on this podcast :)

[@dziban303]

You can't think of _anyone_ better, really?

[@isaiahgarner3615]

@@dziban303 yup Dziban. Really. I've thought through every person I've ever met or heard about and ranked them. He was #1

[@whocares427]

​@@isaiahgarner3615 What about Tolkien himself?

[@isaiahgarner3615]

@@whocares427 well since he's a little bit dead I doubt he would have much to contribute to the conversation

[@Karlmakesstuff]

This is exactly the kind of geek discussion I love to listen to! Thanks for it!

[@TheDanEdwards]

One thing to note about Tolkien and LOTR: he liked to use the word "imaginary" when describing his world and specifically the time in which it is set. For example, in letter 144: "... an imaginary mythical Age (mythical, not allegorical: my mind does not work allegorically)." Again, in letter 183: "... but the historical period is imaginary", and then at the end of the letter "an imaginary historical moment on 'Middle-earth'". In letter 211: "I have, I suppose, constructed an imaginary time ..." I do come across people who try to attach the descriptor "middle ages" to the lands in LOTR, but that is wholly wrong. GRRM, as you noted, is much more interested in having people attach a time period to his fiction.

[@nicholasrusson8978]

This is like a superhero cross-over movie for history nerds.

[@ChalkyWilston]

Wow, Bret is enthralling! Could listen to him talk about the Middle Ages (and early modern period!) all day!

[@Irad41]

There's no way toldinstone releases this the very weekend I'm watching the LOTR trilogy for the first time. I love it.

[@ryanprosper88]

Wow! I'd say it's about time, but just enjoy it!

[@sit-insforsithis1568]

Spoiler alert Frodo leaves the shire

[@alexsnell113]

One caveat for Bret talking about the lack of institutional power of the Faith of the Seven. This is not George overlooking historicity, it's actually a worldbuilding detail. There was a bitter religious war waged by the Faith against Maegor the Cruel the result of which was the disbanding of the Holy Orders and the complete gutting of any hard institutional power the Faith had, becoming mostly ceremonial. The Targaryens thereafter ruling as quasi-Aboslutist monarchs with their flying nukes. Bret's right about the lack of moral authority the church would wield, and that's definitely a deficiency in George's worldbuilding.

[@LordTelperion]

There was a purpose built cannon to take out the walls of Constantinople, I believe it was named "Basilica", as it was designed by a European who ironically tried to sell his technology initially to the Romans, but they didn't bite (or couldn't afford it), so he sold it to the Ottomans.

[@MyMy-tv7fd]

good one, and of course the Byzantine empire had suffered centuries of decline, civil war, and having been beaten off several previous city conquests before, so the later Constantinople had fewer resources outside and inside the city in 1453

[@Verntallat7]

@@MyMy-tv7fd Gondor is supposed to be Byzantium, by latitude, as per Tolkien's lore

[@norten76]

That European was a Hungarian called Orban. In part thanks to his efforts (and many others) the Ottomans took the city and ended up overrunning his home country (and mine) Hungary itself less than a century later in 1526. May he rot in hell for eternity.

[@velorn8927]

@@MyMy-tv7fd almost no ressources, relying on militias and religious merceneries that would fight for cheap to defend the capital of the romans

[@iNeedaBreakdown]

Ok, that was awesome! There needs to be a sequel to this conversation!

[@markstott6689]

I read both of Bret's articles on Helms Deep and Pelennor between Christmas and New Year and thought that they were both excellent. I'm incredibly pleased that you have had him on your channel. I'm even more thankful that KZbin saw fit to drop this into my feed. 😊😊😊❤❤❤😊😊😊

[@tonyl3762]

I like the controversial academic honesty of Devereaux: the Catholic Church's unity and moral authority generally kept extreme violent tendencies in relative check while the Protestant Revolution unleashed them, reverting back to pagan cruelty. And the freedom and autonomy of women, especially in convents, was very elevated compared to later Protestant social conventions.

[@OptimusMaximusNero]

48:31 Speaking of late of Historical accuracy in fiction, I hate how, in most movies and even docudramas set in the Ancient Era, the armors Romans wear are always the same models, no matter if the movie is set during Julius Caesar's campaigns or during the invasions of Attila the Hun. For those of you who don't know, Roman armors evolved as the empire fell apart, as they began to wear a scale-covered chainmail and a different helmet (which would eventually become the medieval armor) than the classic uniform we all know. I can understand that many of these productions were low budget and had to reuse uniforms from other products about Ancient Rome (being the sword-and-sandal movies of the 60s and the Italian miniseries of the 2000s good examples of that), but there are also high-budget productions like the movie "Agora", in which the soldiers wear completely anachronistic armor, which is simply inexcusable. At least we have the BBC productions (like "Ancient Rome: The Rise and Fall of an Empire" and "Heroes and Villains: Attila") and the "Total War" games, which accurately depict roman armies during the last years of the Empire

[@starcapture3040]

and they always wear red!

[@hydroac9387]

ToldInStone is one of my favorites, so I'm THRILLED to have your channel AND LOTR! And then physics! Now fantastic is that! I also like how some of the theatrics of Jackson's LOTR is thoughtfully (and lovingly) discussed. No disrespect here. Thank you. It would be wonderful to see other creative collaborations. Keep up the great work! Side note on Grond and discussion of no purpose-built artillery - Of course you know, Sultan Mehmed II of the Ottoman Empire built had enormous and purpose-built cannon to batter down walls of Constantinople.

[@shelleyhender8537]

Another DELIGHTFUL episode…so appreciate the use of modern fiction and fantasy to draw attention to the wrongs that are being done to history, and pointing out what is truly historically based! I also want to THANK YOU for not “slamming” any particular religion, as it seems so popular these days! I deeply appreciate your respect for our intelligence on all the matters discussed in this wonderful, enlightening episode! Cheers🇨🇦😎🇺🇸

[@komo2542]

Protestantism bad.

[@EmperorSquidysChannel]

It's cool seeing the channel branch out in content, definitely gonna give these a listen later.

[@NetTopsey]

My second unexpected but much appreciated KZbin collaboration of the weekend. Thanks much. For those of you who are wondering, the first unexpected collaboration was Ian McCollum of Forgotten Weapons getting tips from Jackson Crawford (who covers Old Scandinavian topics) on how to pronounce Icelandic words.

[@conorbrennan100]

Just a FYI - Probably worth letting the guest plug their site/work at the end of the podcast and in the description with a link. I think it's a decent thing to do and will probably help should you ever desire to get a specific guest on again, not to mention it's a good way of thanking them for their time, regardless of whether there is a monetary incentive for them to come on. Great work though! Really awesome listening

[@Zogerpogger]

A Collab with Bret Devereaux, instant click! I never expected to encounter him on KZbin.

[@trikepilot101]

On the other hand it could be argued that Martin's world is more early modern, rather than medieval. The arrival in Westeros of the new religion of R'hilor may have had the same destabilizing effect as protestantism had in Europe.

[@davidec.4021]

My heart melted when he mentioned Bertrand de Born ❤️❤️

[@justmoritz]

This is perfect. I love hearing people nerd out, even if I have lots to say about it. Keep these going, super interesting. Also interesting to note you're probably the only youtuber who speaks really fast AFK, and I guess purposefully slows down in your regular videos.

[@Verntallat7]

I'm pretty baffld Bret doesn't mention the fact the siege of Minas Tirith is pretty clearly (and based on the general Tolkin lore quite literally) based on the siege of Constantinople in 1453 and the giant ram is based on the giant cannon built by Hungarian engineer Orban

[@cerberus6654]

Yes, but Bret did say he was talking about sieges that took place before the use of gunpowder and cannons.

[@Verntallat7]

@@cerberus6654 he does make a comparison with Big Bertha and the WWI Belgian forts, which is what I found baffling

[@Verntallat7]

@@andrewcornelio6179 yes, the Battle of the fields of Pelennor is based on the winged hussar's charge, I meant the siege of the city itself

[@cerberus6654]

@@Verntallat7 Ah, gotcha!

[@whateversomething5852]

The Helepolis was also custom built during the siege of Rhodes 305 BC.

[@HH-dd2xq]

Another fantastic episode. I can see this quickly becoming my favorite new podcast. The true mechanics of pre-gunpowder combat has been a topic of great interest to me personally ever since I first read about the competing theories on how Greek phalanxes fought, and there is surprisingly not a lot of info out there on the subject.

[@komo2542]

Incredible. Have him on again!

[@fernandogarcia3957]

WAW!!! Pedants and lovers of pedantry, the Master is here 😃

[@wisdomwielder]

Insanely valuable information here, thank you so much for these podcasts!

[@marshalleubanks2454]

For the siege of Gondor, Sauron (or the Witch King) had also sent out secondary forces to keep Gondor from receiving help from allies, such as the Elves in Mirkwood. As Legolas put it "I do not think that any [allies] would come," he answered. "They have no need to ride to war; war already marches on their own lands."

[@MyMy-tv7fd]

well said, also, in the book, the orcs sent out a force of 10,000 orcs to block or severely slow the ride of Rohan to the relief of Gondor, but the Theoden King of Rohan is approached by Gan-buri-gan, the king of the Woses the wild men of the wood, who tell them of a lost back-route thru an unknown valley to get around the blockade

[@mysterycrumble]

an hour long episode? hold my ring, i'm going in!

[@devtrev85]

I’ve been waiting for this matchup! Excellent choice, Garrett. I really enjoyed this epi.

[@azureprophet]

The takeaway about the horrors in the past not being locked in boxes of safe storage is incredibly relevant to the present.

[@EpicMRPancake]

I think you were a little too harsh on Martin and ASOIAF/GoT. Catelyn Stark is a deeply religious character and much of her inner monologue, especially when struggling with making a decision or her attitude towards her family, refers to her faith. She got Ned to build her a sept at Winterfell so she could worship her southern gods. Almost every character in the North and on the Wall is reverential of the old gods and the Weirwood trees, taking vows beneath them and believing in omens. Everything Melisandre does is defined by zealous religiosity. But beyond all this, the story is about a particular time in Westerosi history, when society has degenerated and opportunists take advantage. The power and status of nobles is falling by the wayside, reflected in everything from Littlefinger's actions to army professionalisation and the rise of the Lannisters (family of wealth). The faith is based in Oldtown, a Lannister ally, and the High Septon is decadent and bought off. Slavery debases and weakens most of Essos with impunity. In Fire and Blood, you see that this was not always the case, especially when reading the early Targaryen rulers and their negotiation and conflict with the church (the army compositions are different too). At the end of the day, you cannot really criticise Martin's apparently total cynicism when 1/3 of the story isn't even out yet. I reckon the organisers of the Red Wedding are going to get their comeuppance, and it will have something to do with the guilt and supernatural fear we have already seen in some of the Freys. I think we're going to see the central drama of the story being the faith of R'hllor surging to primacy in the lives of everyone, as they face the end of the world.

[@QuantumHistorian]

While I of course agree with "Horses are not battering rams", I think the dichotomy is overstated. If it was the case that either: a) infantry broke and was ridden over, b) infantry held and cavalry wheeled away before impact, or c) infantry held and cavalry suicided right into them; then the cavalry would either have 0 casualties or all die. Yet that's clearly not what happened. There are countless examples in history (from the Granicus to Hastings to the 30 years war) of cavalry repeatedly attacking infantry and both sides slowly picking up casualties. This is probably the most common type of encounter in the sources for over 2000 years, yet is ruled out by the model that Bret and many others advocates. This is clearly a problem, and one which is too often brushed under the carpet. What I think probably happened more often than not, was that the cavalry either slowed down to a trot before impact and/or wheeled to hit the infantry formation at an oblique angle. This allows the rider to have a few swipes at the enemy while moving past them, and pulling back before he completely loses momentum and is vulnerable, but without the physical shock of a horse-on-man collision. Exactly how this would work, I don't know. As is stressed in the podcast, the past is a foreign country and too alien for me to get how these things would work in practice. But what is clear is that, to match the sources, some cavalry charges had to whittle down the morale and physical endurance of the infantry so that at one point they do break on and then the cavalry runs through them. Or the cavalry gets tired/demoralised first and goes home. But if the charges always aborted before impact, than the opposite would happen, with the infantry getting ever more confident - the exact opposite of what we know happened on the battlefield. In some unknown way, there had to be some cavalry charges where contact was made and both sides exchanged blows for a shortish period without either utterly collapsing. That's the only way accounts of pre-modern battles make any sense, something that an absolute trichotomy of cavalry always winning, feinting, or suiciding utterly fails to do.

[@HAYAOLEONE]

The main problem is that cinema corrupted even basic imagination. How many people think of cavalry charges as something decided and commanded hundreds of meters away as a 'single shot' action with zero support?.. I agree with you. I also hate that lances are only depicted in jousting, knights during battles only swinging swords and hatchets at super tough infantry... just like knights swinging their swords in melees are cutting arms and legs and heads with ease. _ European knights > steppes cowards DEUS VULT

[@greenclock7152]

@@HAYAOLEONE Remind me of that time european knights conquered one of the largest empires in human history in a generation XD:

[@HAYAOLEONE]

@@greenclock7152 bait harder

[@QuantumHistorian]

The other problem with this topic is that it always gets hijacked by idiots who think that the dead blokes buried in the dirt close to them were more manly and awesomer than the dead guys burred in the dirt further away.

[@devtrev85]

Doesn’t your hypothetical alternative depend on the knights having drilled the scenario? They come with their retinues but are they trained alongside other knights from across the realm to execute such a maneuver as swiping at the flanks or hitting and running multiple times? As a heavy knight you only get so many charges out of a horse so how do you chip away at infantry before your mount gives up?

[@HzHzder]

I'm already craving for another episode with Bret Devereaux, amazing conversation.

[@flowermeerkat6827]

I loved this! Please keep these podcasts up!

[@pedenharley6266]

I really enjoyed this discussion. Thank you!

[@tulsatrash]

Good to be reminded of the dangers of thinking the problems of the past and the threat of the ascendants of problems of the past as being confined to the past.

[@whoaitstiger]

I'm astonished that GRRM found feudal land tenure boring. It's surely one of the most fascinating aspects of the period.

[@LukeGeoDude]

Thank you, this was fantastic!

[@josephbloggs6455]

I'm amazed this doesn't have more views, this was brilliant. Always love hearing fellow LOTR fans gushing over how well made the series is and then defecating on GoT for its soullessness!

[@richarddelotto2375]

Amazing work by both of you-- thanks!

[@DanBombadil]

I usually listen to videos and sometimes I'd like to sit down and watch videos by you so I can see the artwork or the sculptures, but this is perfect to fill my history void while I'm driving!

[@jaojao1768]

Great to see you two collaborate!

[@DGordillo123]

Tolkien and History will always be a winning combination.

[@bouncepsycho]

This was incredibly interesting and fun to listen to/learn about. And you are a very good interviewer. Well done and thank you :)

[@simon.griesius]

I love this type of content. Looking forward to more

[@drwindsurf]

Thank you - I loved listening to the podcast (on my phone while walking)

[@davidec.4021]

Great idea for a video!

[@Catonius]

Fair play, that was thoroughly enjoyable.

[@Tom-lm2tc]

Amazing video, extremely interesting work by both

[@jeffcrist2977]

Great discussion. Learned a lot.

[@KajiCarson]

Oh, this is doubly relevant to my interests, thanks!

[@klapsigaarenbasgitaar1931]

Yes! Just found out you are doing a podcast. Keep it up!

[@SomeRandomDudeWhoIsntImporant]

This was great, I want more and I want them longer

[@Catsley]

Loving this

[@ShummaAwilum]

It may be more accurate to describe ASOIAF as depicting an early modern society without gunpowder. Also worth noting regarding Red Wedding is that most of the victims were, at least nominally, adherents of a different religion. In addition, in the books the Red Wedding does indeed shock the entire society. There's only so much anyone can do because the perpetrators hold most of the power. That said, a fundamentalist religious movement arises partially in response to the war shortly after the wedding.

[@tbotalpha8133]

Bret's point is that, the people being shocked by said violence would have included *other warrior aristocrats.* Members of Westeros' political class, who may well have turned on Walder Frey for his sacrilege, and Tywin Lannister for trying to protect him. The religious backlash would have come from Walder's peers, not just the commonfolk.

[@lawyeroutlaw]

Amazing podcast!

[@Unknown-jt1jo]

I could have listened to five more hours of this stuff!

[@QuantumHistorian]

For the discussion around 12:00, Gront feels to me more like the specialist Ottoman siege guns used against Constantinople in 1453 than anything WW1. Gondor as Byzantium also feels thematically right for many reasons. That I see different parallels, however, probably says more about my own interests than anything else!

[@sidibill]

You beat me to the comparison to the Turkish siege of Constantinople and the massive cannon built to attack the walls.

[@QuantumHistorian]

@@sidibill And, having continued watching, I see that Garrett touches on the Gondor = Byzantium theme a little later at 35:00 too.

[@nycgweed]

Well done mr stone

[@terryhughes7349]

Good chat about an interesting subject.

[@haught7576]

Great vid 👍👍

[@thehermitman822]

It seems like religion gets all the credit for atrocities committed through it but I think this is the first time I've heard about non-combatants being established through religious beliefs.

[@stickemuppunkitsthefunlovi4733]

Glad he warned us not to try standing infront of a horse, I was on my way out the door.

[@Kuckooracha]

“Let’s take all this violence we have in our society and put it over here, put it in the Middle East” lmao sounds awfully familiar

[@dbartholemewfox]

40:52 "There are no noncombatants in Roman war, not even a little bit." Presumably Bret is stressing how civilians were not spared from violence in classical warfare? Because Greeks and Romans certainly had concepts of hallowed/sacred ground, and of claiming sanctuary at temples, and that destruction of temples (or murdering priests) was highly sacrilegious and would incur divine retribution. Edit: Nevermind. Bret didn't correct himself, but from the rest of the interview it's clear he knows classical warriors also feared the gods. Thus they wouldn't've considered priests combatants.

[@beneficent2557]

Didnt help at Alesia brother.

[@peterlynchchannel]

Loved it! I just wanted to comment on 10:42 that in ancient and medieval warfare, siege engines were almost ALWAYS purpose built to the particular fortification that they were up against.

[@tbotalpha8133]

True, but I think Bret's point was more that siege engines (barring artillery) were usually built on-site during a siege, rather than built elsewhere and then transported to the fortification they were designed for. Grond is a bit of an oddity in that regard.

[@dancummane3668]

What a real treat

[@OptimusMaximusNero]

Another Roman Empire's influence on the Lore of LOTR would be the character of Túrin Turambar. Even though Túrin is mainly based on the finnish legend of Kullervo, he is also possibly based on Caligula if we talk about his role as the brother of a beautiful woman. Both men insanely loved and committed incest with their sisters (Turambar with Niënor and Caligula with Drusilla) and lost them in a rather tragic way, sealing their deaths with that event, since Turambar committed suicide once he knew what happenned to Niënor and Caligula intensified his degenerations due to his incapability to assume the loss of Drusilla, causing his murder by the Praetorian Guards

[@mireillelebeau2513]

Brilliant !

[@KevinJHutchison]

Excellent.

[@AoE2Replays]

Wow. super fascinating guys, great stuff Ryan + Bret. learned a lot about military cav. Was also fun hearing you s**t all over Game of Thrones

[@lkrnpk]

The thing about cavalry as battering ram... horses are not suicidal too and will not run to certain death

[@mm-yt8sf]

something that nagged at the back of my mind was how the ents throw boulders like catapults, but i always thought it was emphasized how slow ents were, so i'd think even with infinite strength, if they truly did move slowly in all things, a thrown boulder would not fly very high or far since once it leaves their hands/branches the only thing the rock knows is its own velocity. i suppose something could be said about them being large so what appears to be slow from a distance (like taking a step) would actually cover a lot of ground and result in a foot that was moving quickly through the air but i think a thrown rock wouldn't travel many body lengths as it would if a human threw a rock

[@jaojao1768]

1:00:18 I remember reading someone who compared it to if Mel Brooks' gravestone only said he was a WW2 veteran

[@spencerdawson4461]

Thanks

[@vandwight4194]

The likely context for the end of the Third Age is probably, according to Tolkien's specialisation and participation in Academia, Late Antiquity itself. There's a strong theme of nostalgia that encircles the Noldor and Sindar elves for a distant past where, joined together against Morgoth, were more closer to peaceful and prosperous times than to the 'recent days' which they lived. Nostalgia in late latin literature could be seen by how 'efemerous' time is towards transformation and the dawn of christianity as a 'sign for salvation of those in the final days of the world', in which chroniclers compared the wide transformation in Rome to the Last Judgement being closer each day. Germanic myth has strong roots in the time period, for motifs which the huns participated over the course of these myths, whose inspiration is seen by the siege of Minas Tirith, as some sort of final instance of an alliance of Gondor, inheriting the Numenórean legacy, easily comparable to Rome maybe, and Rohan, encompassing all other men that had a shorter life time and were more closer to death. That'd be what I'd apply to his stories.

[@LDProductionsClass]

Me listening to Bret destroying pop culture cavalry logic in the background while playing Total War: 🐴😰

[@brunopereira6789]

43:45 but it does! Not only was there a whole war and a whole lot of trouble because of exactly this kind of shit during the late reign of Aenys and all of Maegor's, and even a bit into Jaehaerys's, it is starting to happen again in books 4 and 5.

[@Robin_Goodfellow]

It occurs to me that one of the reasons that Warhammer 40k is so compelling as a fictional universe is the sincerity of belief that Bret talks about. There is no doubt in the minds of the Imperial Guard that the Emperor is a god, and the Astartes are his angels. The Orks never once consider that war might not be the only thing worth living for. As readers, we get to try on these values and get a feel for what it's like to be devout or bloodthirsty or heretical or whatever without a contemporary modern discourse diluting what is otherwise a completely foreign experience.

[@cerberus6654]

Dr G! I really enjoyed this. I think the best cinematic cavalry charge to be seen is in the film from the 70's, 'Waterloo', as they used members of the Romanian armed forces as extras and I assume that some military accuracy was both sought and volunteered. I watched this as a kid on a vast cinema screen and when the cavalry comes up over the ridge it was terrifying, except useless against British squares. My uncle - an RAF vet who fought in the Battle of Britain - who took us to see it said, "If they were bloody Mongols with bows and arrows it might have worked out quite differently." However, the scenes with French lancers were pretty hair-raising and later I read that they scared the crap out of the British, who promptly went on to create a multitude of lancer regiments, including our own Royal Canadian Mounted Police.

[@Droxal]

Yeah I think it's fair to say GRRM has a warped sense of realism in his world. Not just historical, but he also claims Westeros is the size of Africa which doesn't really make much sense. That said, I still love the series

[@dmdrosselmeyer]

Match up for the ages!! I love both you guys' work in the popular media sphere! ACOUP and Told in Stone are just so amazingly wonderful!!

[@abrahamgonzalez-silva9249]

Sir, big fan. Been following your videos for a while now. If I may ask, could you provide some basic details on how you create a podcast like this? What software do you use to put this together? I will need to do something similar for work (military) and your format would be a great base to copy. You can send me a direct message if that's preferred but some basic guidance would be much appreciated. Thanks for the entertaining/educational content!

[@vladimirputout2461]

You can build holes in an infantry formation if the cavalry's lances are longer than the infantry's weapons

[@neutralfellow9736]

29:10 - rather man for man probably the most over romanticized and exaggerated type of warrior in human history, simply through the coolness of them being so cool, I believe the rather unique battle of Carrhae has skewed peoples(and historians) view on how horse archers worked to such a degree it is near comical, there is basically not a single large battle where they are described as deciding victory, basically all steppe vs sedentary battles are described as fought and won by massive direct cavalry charges. Even the posterchilds of of such battles, steppes vs sedentary, like Manzikert, you see direct all in cavalry charge, battle of Kalka, an immediate direct cavalry charge of a steppe force, Cumans, into the Mongols, then an near immediate counter head on charge of the Mongols into the Cumans followed into the Rus, then when you look at actual examples of horse archers actually specifically described and mentioned, as before Kalka, horse archers get slaughered because they are unsupported by lancers, then at Mohi, horse archers fail miserably, again the battle is won by direct smashing into the Hungarian army, same happens all over, same in Europe steppes, the Middle East, eastern steppes, China etc. cavalry charge, cavalry charge, cavalry charge the horse archers were basically alike skirmishers in infantry based armies of antiquity, as the skirmishers skirmished in front of the actual deciders, the infantry, so did the horse archers skirmish, the main difference being that when the charge came, they all participated in it equally

[@neutralfellow9736]

excellent episode otherwise from that, especially destroying GRRM's obvious lack of understanding of the medieval world

[@johnwigginton359]

I’m absolutely blown away that a supposed historian could misinterpret GOT the way this guest had. Yes the SUCCESSION is like war of roses with two rival families ultimately creating a shared blood line stark Targaryen.

[@Nifter71]

This was great! The military stuff was less interesting to me tbh, because (a) loads of channels endlessly point out historical inaccuracies and (b) honestly, who really cares how far a Troll can kick a man other than actual nerds? However, I thought the criticism of Martin's approach to religion and belief systems was absolutely bang-on, and something that's bugged me for years. Why don't the people FEEL like they really belong in their medieval or pseudo-medieval worlds? I remember watching the first episodes of 'Vikings' and hoping they'd really try to explore the Viking mindset, but that turned into a sub-par boring version of Xena very quickly... a real wasted opportunity. For Martin, I think he posits Cynicism as the overriding belief system throughout, so he can't bring himself to explore genuine religious belief. But it's not just in Vikings & GOT - it's difficult to find ANY medieval-ish films or series that DON'T feel like they're populated by people with modern minds... One obscure example that comes to mind is Vincent Ward's 'The Navigator': A Medieval Odyssey' (1988), a unique mashing of plague-ridden Cumbria and 1980s New Zealand... as fearful peasants on a pilgrimage to save their village from the Black Death somehow tunnel out into the modern world for one night. Not actually the comedy caper it sounds, the medieval people are portrayed as real people, but bound by their intense religious devotion, and constantly looking for signs that their faith might protect them. It's a bizarre tale, but often looks spectacular, especially the snowy Cumbrian scenes, which are shot in stark B&W. I'd highly recommend checking it out!

[@SA-oz3zv]

You talked about how historical accuracy matters with respect to how it affects society's cultural knowledge, but I wish you would have gone more in depth on why historical accuracy matters in fiction from an artistic perspective, why as artists we should care for historical accuracy not considering the almost moral obligation to not create cultural ignorance. Because the way I see it as far as the artistic expression is concerned sticking to historical accuracy won't make a media better, it may be even limiting. I don't know, I was thinking perhaps something along the lines of "truth is better than fiction", that if as artists we really get to know the primary sources that inspire art, and know what does and doesn't make it "beautiful" we may have the tools to deliver better art. A bit like Tolkien did with languages, deconstructing them, analysing what gives them their musicality and using that to create fictional languages. Here we would be deconstructing historical facts/happenings that inspire art, like the medieval period, analysing it's aesthetics, analysing what makes it feel like the medieval ages, and using those core aesthetics to construct a more lively fictional world. Hence the importance of being historical in art from an artistic POV

[@Laotzu.Goldbug]

10:44 maybe the Heliopolis (siege tower) built for the siege of Rhodes in 305 BC?

[@cathsaigh2197]

Around 33:00 Bret says steppe horse archers haven't been well represented in fiction, is there something bad about Conn Igguldens Conqueror series or is that just too small to make a splash next to the likes of ASOIAF/GOT?

[@christianvannelle5409]

I'd love to hear Dr. Bret Devereaux thought on the Malazan book of the Fallen by Steven Erikson.

[@harrybuttery2447]

Western cavalry actually fought horse archers fairly often and won most of the time. Actually even in the first Mongol invasion of Hungary in which Hungary was beaten the Heavy cavalry proved itself fairly effective it was just the Hungarians did not have enough of it, so as part of their preparation for the next invasion they increased the number of heavy cavalry they had and in this next invasion they won. Western infantry was also fairly effective against Horse archers, see the battle of Jaffa for an example.

[@t.vanoosterhout233]

Just re-read Lord of the Rings (for about the 7th time), appreciate this discussion.

[@beneficent2557]

Ere the sun rises.

[@fuferito]

As awesome as the trolls looked when they stormed inside the gates of Minas Tirith swinging their huge hammers, I felt the orcs getting up close to the soldiers of Gondor in the alleys and lunging at their throats was way more horrifying.

[@mattyu1818]

War Wolf was purposely built by Edward Ist for Stirling Castle..

[@alanpennie8013]

The great victory of The Church in the person of Ambrose has probably been misinterpreted and mythologised. The real conflict was between Theodosius and his better self. He didn't want to go down in history as a tyrant and so this theatre of penitence was played with Ambrose speaking for The Emperor's conscience. The very full account in Wikipedia argues that Theodosius may never have ordered the massacre at all (our sources are late, unclear, and conflicting) only that those responsible for the murder of the local general be apprehended and punished. If so why did he stage a public repentance? Probably because he preferred to be viewed as guilty for an atrocity rather than not in control of the soldiers in The Eastern Empire.

[@Electromash92]

I always thought song of ice and fire was presented as tudor, war of the roses, early modern...? Who said it proudly claims to be representative of the middle ages? The media? Fans? I dont really understand the point of the criticism

[@Dadecorban]

The George Martin hostility is a little overcooked. There are a lot of explanations for some of these criticisms which are overlooked. Furthermore, if the standard which we are judging Martin is against Tolkien….he’s the only author even on the same field.

[@beneficent2557]

Grrm has blindspots. Especially in worldbuilding.

[@ellerose9164]

I love how nerdy this is😂