Tears Of The Kingdom Timeline & Story Contradictions Explained | Theory

[@ezratotravel]

Something I just noticed...Zelda's dragon transformation was likely teased way back in the final trailer, as at the end of that trailer (which features the TotK theme), they play Zelda's lullaby with an ehru - the string instrument that's iconic to the dragons themes throughout the game.

[@Rune_Scholar]

That's the theme that plays any time you're near the light dragon as well. You hear it in game the first time when you see her before jumping of the Great Sky Island. It's how I knew that it was Zelda before even leaving the starting area, lol.

[@jedgamesguy]

Yup, I realised that too when listening to it again. If someone guessed that back in 2021 they’d have been labelled insane!

[@incognitoman3656]

@@jedgamesguyAlthough the white dragon was thought to be Hylia by theorists such as NBC

[@brogiesullivan3764]

@@incognitoman3656it still could be hylia. The fact that it’s Zelda doesn’t mean it’s not hylia. Hylia and Zelda are pretty much 1 in the same. And hylia gave up her immortal self to reincarnate into Zelda. And Zelda gave up her mortality to become immortal.

[@incognitoman3656]

@@brogiesullivan3764 Hylia is the same person, the difference is the name and status. Since we don’t know her powers, we don’t know if she can project herself from Zelda’s mind or is in any way a different aspect of her.

[@grookey77]

in the memory “zelda and sonia” sonia describes how she uses recall uses ‘an object’s memories’ to coax them to a moment in the past; i think this supports the idea that they use recall to transform the light dragon back into princess zelda, as zelda literally had those memories at some point, manifested in the dragons tears

[@shishanyu]

so what if canonically Link is meant to collect the tears, and Rauru and Sonia use Link's collection of the tears to "coax her" into her previous state and do the recall on Zelda?

[@Terralventhe]

@@shishanyu That actually checks out since Mineru herself says that Sonia and Rauru were able to use their powers through Link -- meaning it's only possible if Link has obtained Zelda's memories through which they could trace her memories back with Recall.

[@GeneralOlde]

@@Terralventhe That makes a lot of sense. I think Rauru and Sonia appearing in spirit form can be explained as them not moving on to the next life until they fulfilled their promise to Zelda: to send her home to "put Link's mind at ease." It's such a heartfelt ending to Zelda's story. Reminds me of Rocket's near-death experience in GOTG Vol. 3.

[@justsomejerseydevilwithint4606]

WAIT THAT'S FUCKING COOL

[@novustalks7525]

The game literally says that

[@MissyJ]

Not only do we see the dragons fly into the cloud realm, we also see them dive into the depths.

[@dorymarshall5477]

Yes, but the light dragon never does so.

[@itsJoshW]

Correct, because the God's (3 of them) created the Sacred & Twilight realms. Cloud "realm", however, is a bit offputting. consider that we do not see "only cloudy days" in BOTW, and you start to realize that it's simply a different realm above the sky, which is shattered by The Demon King Ganondorf upon the break of his seal. Also the Piggyback pages shown (40 of them on their website) also depict the chasms as gateways to the other realm. I personally take this as proof.

[@MissyJ]

@@itsJoshW I don't find above the clouds off-putting at all. Because in skyward sword the sky islands couldn't see the ground before zelda shattered the seal by falling through them, which happens again when she does it as the light dragon at the beginning of totk. Because we were never on the surface before in skyward sword, we never saw what the sky looked like before the seal broke. But to saw the surface was always fully clouded until after zelda fell to earth seems a little farfetched. I think the seal appearing as clouds is mostly an illusion.

[@JeremySolo]

@@itsJoshW Piggyback has no affiliation with Nintendo. They simply won the bid to publish the official guide. They are making guesses the same as everyone else

[@chaotic_tier-0029]

I'll put this out there. Hylia made the "Cloud Barrier" to hide the inhabitants from Demise. That said, why would you think you'd be able to see what's above the Barrier from the ground? It's a magical Barrier meant to hide the islands, which the Skyloftians called the cloud Barrier because that's what they saw. From the ground it wouldn't be viewed as an endless cloud above Hyrule since if that were the case, the ground would be constantly shrouded in clouds. It's probably more likely a mirage of sorts that reflects the sky above and hides the islands from view. Similar to cloaking tech

[@DizzyEyes94]

I honestly think Link's repaired arm best supports the recall theory considering they theoretically used up to three secret stones' power siphoned through Link's arm to bring their natures back to the state before they discovered Ganondorf.

[@DizzyEyes94]

(I say up to three considering Zelda's proximity and the secret stone that she swallowed and how she or the spirit of the light dragon even may have unconsciously assisted in the process. That however is def more of a reach on my part.)

[@SuperiorPosterior]

@@DizzyEyes94 I do like the theory I've seen of Link's love for Zelda being the catalyst that let Rauru and Sonia awaken Zelda from Draconification

[@minuscaseus]

@@SuperiorPosterior I like that idea as well. Similar to how Zelda's love for Link is what awakened her power in BOTW.

[@cadenroper6722]

Idk the castle was still floating tho

[@MelissaBrownell-pz3fe]

Don't forget that as he was going through shrines, and trading in blessing orbs, he was being purified of the evil that infected his arm. So him getting his arm back, isn't a stretch.

[@ktm5130]

The ending where Zelda is finally saved was so emotional for me. As soon as I saw the memory where she turned into a dragon, I cried like a baby. I was so emotionally invested in hoping she could be saved. The scene where you have to dive and catch her. I was crying the whole time because I was so happy that she was safe.

[@guardianboreal1432]

Ya still gotta catch her, kupo!

[@fade2black161]

That ending was so good! The callback to the beginning with the shot of Link's arm reaching for Zelda's!

[@robinfoladi3829]

So was I 😭😭

[@77819]

Never knew people would cry that much for a video game

[@Maxowen]

am I the only one that when I got to that point I just kept saying something along the lines of dive link dive

[@nicodalusong149]

Just want to note that a secret ending scene is available if you beat the game after unlocking all the memories. Long story short, Mineru surmises exactly that Sonia's recall and Rauru's light managed to turn Zelda back from her dragon form.

[@hatbros4463]

I love the ending after you defeat the final boss and you dive in the sky to save Zelda from falling, and link grabbing Zelda’s hand mimics the beginning of the game when link fails the first time to grab her

[@Jeremyb2023]

You know, I hadn't even thought of that... that's really quite beautfiul to think about it that way! I'm convinced that was no coincidence!

[@CBTZeppeli]

I am convinced that the entire time Ganondorf was sealed below the castle, Demise's hate couldn't reincarnate anymore since the current incarnation is still around. I'm pretty sure it's mentioned offhandedly somewhere in BotW that they know of times when one male Gerudo was born every century but it hasn't happened in a long time, the way I see it that was implying that only one male Gerudo can be alive at a time and I think the same of Demise. I don't see any reason that TotK Ganondorf could be the first and be sealed away alive during the adventures of other Ganondorfs who are also born of Demise's curse. In my opinion it's more likely that the time of the Zonai is after the older games or that SS created a timeline branch unrelated to OoTs

[@llamadrama1090]

I think its just so into the future hyrule was destroyed and remade some times

[@CBTZeppeli]

I lean more towards the SS timeline split but a re-founding of Hyrule has already happened once before so I think either are possible

[@TheIceCrypt]

Sonia & Rauru refounding Hyrule is the worst timeline interpretation to come out of this game.

[@nahte123456]

I'm really not sure where the idea that Demise's curse=Ganondorf came from. Demise only says "an incarnation of my hate", which implies it's every villain not just Ganondorf.

[@CBTZeppeli]

@@nahte123456 I didn't mention Vaati and Bellum and stuff because they aren't actually relevant to the discussion. Them being around makes it MORE unlikely that there could both be a Ganondorf sealed away and still alive AND various other reincarnations of the one spirit of hate at the same time. If Demise follows the common rule that generally you can only reincarnate if you're dead, then there shouldn't be TotK Ganon existing alongside literally any other final boss unless we're about to argue which ones specifically would or wouldn't be from the curse. From this perspective the only way I can see any other way for Demise's curse to continue working is the calamity. It doesn't sound right at all to suggest that TotKs past is before OoT unless it's in a separate timeline from OoT

[@TheWrathsblade]

You know, Skyward technically had an Imprisoning War, too. The whole thing of how the Imprisoned form of Demise came to be. Also, when obtaining a light blessing, the pillars around the altar are the same design as the spikes that were lodged into Demise's forehead.

[@redsmoke6541]

I agree there was an imprisoning war long before ss. The ancient robots in ss look like the constructs in totk. I think their was a hyrule before ss before the sky islands were put into the sky. I think the memories take place long before ss

[@agamersinsanity]

@@redsmoke6541 I agree the ancient robots must have been made by Zonai. The establishment of Hyrule must have happened before SS but after the imprisonment of Demise.

[@okasart]

If I’m gonna be completely honest I was hoping they would choose to do the imprisoning war timeline from skyward sword. Because it would make the game wayyy more impactful to the other games. The game was still awesome but completely a missed opportunity Edit: I was hoping totk would effect the timeline the same way skyward sword did. Super vaguely add elements to the other games that are clearly set there for the lore; however still leaving little boundaries put so then the creators of each game can still practice creativity for it

[@dbv8600]

It just now occured to me that we have actually seen lots of things that could have been referred to as Imprisoning or Sealling wars. Not just the downfall timeline but even when Link wins in Ocorina of time involves the sealing Ganondorf in another realm not killing him and in Twilight Princess the sages sent him to the Twilight Realm. So while I initially thought my theory that the sealling war and imprisoning war could be different was a streatch I now realize that it is confirmed that there are multiple things that could have been reffered to as a iimprisoning war which means this is not such a streatch that it could have been refering to a different war than what we initally assume.

[@Jeremyb2023]

What pillars are you talking about? I do think that TOTK memories likely precede Skyward Sword.

[@samuelromerosoto3497]

Kotake and koume (OoT Ganondorf surrogate mothers) appear in the bowing scene, very young. That could explain naming their little demon king after their first master.

[@SuperiorPosterior]

I've actually had a thought on that as well. I could imagine that OoT's Zelda wasn't seeing the _future,_ per se, when she had visions about Ganondorf, but instead visions of how history is rhyming/repeating/etc. Because that scene where Ganon's bowing to Rauru is definitely an homage to OoT. My proposition (Idk if it qualifies as a full theory just yet) is that TotK's version of that event happened _first,_ and OoT's and TotK's two Zeldas had an "I'm thinking what you're thinking" moment. Because that Zelda *_also_* has time powers, as shown when she causes the timeline to split.

[@SuperiorPosterior]

Either that, or Rauru and Sonia's daughter Sensa was watching from the window with a little woodland boy named Tink, and the Disgruntled 'Deo-gamers Erin and Denise were cracking "k*llyermuther" jokes while the fairy Ga'Shun hovers around Tink's head (⁠✿⁠^⁠‿⁠^⁠)(⁠◕⁠ᴗ⁠◕⁠✿⁠)

[@WealthyIndustrialist]

Do they? I’ll have to watch that scene again.

[@lenorrismiller563]

​@@SuperiorPosterior I've actually proposed this theory before. It mirrors ocarina too closely with the only major difference being that in TOTK an adult Zelda is present as well. I think that Zelda actually plays a similar role as child link at the end of ocarina of time. She warns raru that ganondorf is still present in her future. I think that this changes the timeline and causes her version of the imprisoning war.

[@cellisch3753]

I would actually go further and say that this makes OOT Ganondorf not even a reincarnation of Demise in the first place. Knowing that Kume and Kotake are crazy evil witches, I wouldn't put it past them that they raised the new Ganondorf to be just like the original one.

[@AlejandroScared]

Most likely gloom disappeard after Ganondorfs death, meaning everyone ill from gloom would heal back to normal including Link's arm. I think the reason the spirits of Rauru and Sonia had to revert Zelda only AFTER Ganondorf's defeat because the process would remove Rauru's arm from Link. And without it, his wounds would surely kill him. Once gloom was banished Link didn't need Rauru's arm anymore. Probably Rauru's arm is the reason Link can heal his maximum hearts back when in contact with LIGHT which is Rauru's sage element. (Well that was longer than I intendet this coment to be...)

[@avaliausd.]

That actually makes a lot of sense...to me at least.

[@defearl]

Yeah I agree with this more than “Recall ability restored Zelda”. We’ve only seen recall used on objects, not living beings.

[@carlosjosejimenezbermudez9255]

@@defearl That's gameplay story segregation. Not lore, in lore recall could definitely be used in more creative ways. It's also implied that Zelda's tears were created through a manifestation of her time power, essentially, recall, just used in a very different situation than what we do in gameplay.

[@majora5651]

@@defearl We could also assume Zelda's power isn't interchangeable with Sonia's, as she teleported her entire self to a time she has never been in - therefore definitely not using an objects "memories" at all (although I guess you could make a case for her using Rauru's secret stones memory but I digress). Therefore her power wouldn't be limited to object related time manipulation, but rather fully fledged time travel. After all, we never saw her fully master her powers, so I believe it's not fully farfetched to theorise she turned herself back in time, if that makes any sense. With Rauru and Sonia (channelled through Link) more just giving her the "control" she had lacked to do so up until that point, rather than doing the actual transforming themselves. That would require for her to have retained some fraction of an ounce of control over the dragon, which she might've done - considering she actively fought the demon dragon. Alternatively, they could've just used the secret stones memory to turn her back - I'm assuming the "memories" of objects that powerful ought to be much more potent than your average tea cups, or boulders.

[@MissKiamari]

I think it's more likely that the memories of TotK are SO far into the future of the timeline that even the ends of the three timelines are ancient myth by the time they roll around. It's not impossible for civilisations to fall and rise again. Given that Ganondorf, in all three incarnations, is the reincarnation of Demise's hatred, it doesn't make sense to have more than one around at a time. And it's strongly implied that the 'one male every hundred years' cycle has ceased because Ganondorf is still alive. Therefore, he HAS to be the latest. I choose to believe that Rauru and Sonia call their new kingdom Hyrule after the mythical kingdom of legend, and will do so until Word of God confirms or denies that assumption. It simplifies a lot. As to the recall theory, I found it obvious that that was going to be how they saved her. It was foreshadowed in Memory 8 when Sonia talks about how the time powers work. The sheer scale of the events that needed to be Recalled, combined with the length of time needing to be rewound, took all three of them (Link, Rauru, and Sonia) combining their power. We know that deceased souls can still have an impact on the physical world thanks to Rhoam in BotW (how else would he write a diary?), so it's not a stretch to imagine that they retain at least some of their magic, too.

[@oceanallama]

Adding to the first part (hyrules history), we can assume that a calamity happens every 10 000 years, as it was 10,000 years since the last (and only other) recorded calamity. That makes the events of the dragon's tears 20,000 years before botw, which is enough time for the history of the kingdoms founding to fade into legend. I'm going to plug my own theory in here, but I agree with both this one and my own (actually I like the your theory better) so yeah. In an alternate outcome of OoT (we are bullying this game by not giving it a definitive ending), ganondorf uses the triforce of power to topple hyrule castle and the surrounding town even more than he already has before losing to link, and it plays out like normal. This theory follows the "adult timeline" of this split, in which zelda on her own cannot rebuild Hyrule and the kingdom and lets it fall. The zonai appear centuries later, sensing a disturbance in the world and descend from the heavens, Rauru meets zeldas descendant Sonia, and from there it plays out. A hero also doesn't appear when ganondorf appears just like the wind waker That is not fully thought through and is proven wrong by many sources (like the 'glowing embers of twilight quote from BotW and many more, so this was more of a fun little what if.

[@brittwells8355]

I agree completely. This makes it so Nintendo can make games within a consistent timeline, but not rewrite the history of the older games. My headcanon is that Rauru and Sonia lived like 20,000 years ago, and Skyward Sword was something like 100,000 years ago.

[@LittleAl016]

This is literally supported by the fact that what we know as the Zelda Timeline is referred to as "The Era of Myth".

[@troloinkto]

but why didn't rauru know about the master sword? yet the "ancient hero" wields it, weren't rauru and his sister the last zonai alive? how could any other zonai make it another 10,000 years if they were already extinct?, the gap between the past in totk and the great calamity doesn't make any sense, if we take the master sword and the ancient hero into account

[@LittleAl016]

@@troloinkto The Ancient Hero likely came well after Rauru. And nothing said that he and Mineru were the last Zonai alive.

[@brittwells8355]

I believe the past events with Rauru and Sonia are a "refounding" of Hyrule many, many years after the events of the end of the other timelines. There is no mention of the Triforce in either BotW or TotK. I believe it's because the Triforce and its purpose have been lost for centuries. Zelda only knows of a sealing power in BotW, and then we have the secret stones in TotK that Ganondorf is after instead of the Triforce. Raura and Sonia being very ancient to Link, but very far in the future of the other timelines doesn't mess with lore much imo. I also believe this is just another incarnation of Ganondorf. This is my headcanon, at least. Edit: I understand that the events with Link are at the end of the timelines or one of the timelines. (Nintendo has said this). I'm simply giving my opinion on when the events with Rauru, Sonia, Zelda, and Ganondorf take place. This is what people are speculating about.

[@DragmireXI]

Sonia does have tattoos of the Triforce on her arms if that counts

[@Jaker788]

I'm curious where the Sheika legend in BOTW came from with the beasts and taking down the calamity. That wasn't the conflict we saw for the imprisoning war, so.os it before or after? The Legendary Master sword does no exist in the past Hyrule we saw, does it come after perhaps if Skyward happened later and Hyrule was refounded then.

[@AlexAnteroLammikko]

I think that makes the most sense. I know the BOTW world was largely built to be independent of the main timeline by making the rest of the timeline "myths and legends thousands of years ago", which is all fine.......until they start showing things that happened thousands of years ago that seem to contradict with that :p The two ganondorfs thing is my biggest confusion and the who founded Hyrule.

[@Rusty_Spy]

This is the most obvious answer yet so many people choose to ignore it.

[@daniuy1]

@@Jaker788 we actually don't know if the master sword existed in the past or not, keep in ming the master sword can only by weild by the one with the hero spirit and since there isn't any link/hero at the time of the imprisoning war in totk, the master sword may aswell be still hidden

[@redgeoblaze3752]

I think it's interesting that the Zonai raised up those land masses so that the eventual hero in the future could be safe from Ganondorf while he prepares to face him, while that's essentially the backstory for Skyward Sword as well. Hylia raises the Human's land into the sky so that they could be protected from Demise, with the ultimate plan to groom a hero with the Power, Courage, and Wisdom to save the world.

[@DaimonAnimations]

True but supposedly the time of Rauru and Sonia takes place after Skyward sword. Now I don't know about the Zonai and what is their relationship with Hylia and the Goddessess that created the Triforce.

[@Jeremyb2023]

@@DaimonAnimations We really don't know when the founding of Hyrule is supposed to have taken place. I think it may have been before Skyward Sword since the back story shows evil coming out of the earth, the imprisoned coming out of the earth before being sealed again. Demise, when he appeared in Skyward Sword, was expecting quite a worthy battle out of Link. Also, it shows Zelda and representations of Hyrulean races sending the Islands to the sky. She has a sword in her hand. The only way this makes sense is if she and the sages (of which she is one), sent Skyloft up before becoming a dragon.

[@DaimonAnimations]

@@Jeremyb2023 According to Fujibayashi he said that The found of Hyrule (with Rauru and Sonia) doesn't necessarily mean re-writing the lore but possibly the history before that was lost in time. He also stated they don't tend to break apart from previous Zelda lore so this implies the world suffered a "end of the world" scenario and knowledge of the previous Zelda lore got lost but it still existed. There's a possibility that the three timelines merging and the destruction and lost knowledge of old Hyrule are somewhat linked. (We don't know exactly what happened yet) but it implies Zelda Skyward sword remains the origins and Ocarina of time events happened and later in the future after Wind Waker and Twilight Princess (who knows how far in the future) something happened the three timelines merged, a huge cataclysm happened and all knowledge of the past was lost and the world started again. Which is why we find the ancient relics like the Majora's mask and the ancient Hyrule clothing detailing the info of the ancient Links.

[@Jeremyb2023]

@@DaimonAnimations Hi Thanks for the comment! Yes, I think I read something like that about his comments. In my opinion, he's saying that it's not necessarily rewriting the origin story or anything else, but rather filling in some gaps. With regards to the timeline, I don't think it really affects the placement as those gaps could be pre or post skyward sword. I definitely agree that BOTW and the playable portion of TOTK are at the end of the timeline. But yeah, you are definitely right in that the world could have started again after the convergence of the timelines. But, no matter how you look at it, there were still some very similar events that took place before Skyward Sword, such as the following: 1. There was a demon king that was imprisoned into the earth. 2. There was a fissure from which demons game. 3. There was a great war before Skyloft was risen. Maybe an "imprisoning" war. 4. Hylia (or a past Zelda) had apart in sending Skyloft to the air (compatible with TOTK saying the sages did it). 5. The master sword did not exist at this time, but yet Hylia (AKA past Zelda) had a sword at the time of the rising of Skyloft. In my opinion, there is too much here to deny.... but it also has it's problems. I think the creators kept it vague on purpose because every definitive theory will have problems... but a vague theory makes it the players job to try to reconcile the differences. So I think it's purposely inconclusive.

[@DaimonAnimations]

@@Jeremyb2023 Yeah, I don't think they intend to intertwine the stories, make some references yes but if they point is to head in a new direction, it would make no sense to intertwine the new Hyrule to fill up plot holes, it would make it a lot more difficult. Plus if this were the case. They would know about the hero Link and Sonia wouldn't be called Sonia but Zelda. Since all previous princesses have been called Zelda. Here Rauru nor Sonia have knowledge of any hero like Link. Nor is mentioned of any "Zonai" creatures from Skyward sword all the way to Twilight Princess or Wind Waker. Now, the Zora didn't evolve into the Rito into Wind Waker so it wouldn't make sense to show the Rito before Ocarina of time, so again, it points out the new rebirth of Hyrule is still happening after Twilight and Wind waker time. Plus Aonuma mentioned that BOTW does take place after Ocarina of Time and not before. So seeing the Rito means the merger happened after Twilight and Wind Waker but before Rauru and Sonia rebuilt Hyrule and lost knowledge of previous Zelda. Now one piece of evidence here is the Master Sword, we know the Master Sword remains unchanging over the ages. We know its Fi and there's the Fi theme in Totk when the Master Sword talks with Zelda. This confirms that Skyward sword events happened. But Neither Sonia nor Rauru know about it. If their time took place Oot they should have known about the legendary hero and his sword and Sonia again, her name would have been Zelda. We know the Sheika had a strong prominent role since Skyward Sword but we see no traces of them with Rauru or Sonia. Another thing is, they don't mention once the Triforce of power but talk about the Tears, now. Sonia does possess a tattoo of the Triforce in her body, possibly knowing subconsciously about it but since the Hyrule was destroyed and lost all knowledge from the past all she retains (BIG probably) a subcouncious image of the Triforce. (I'm stretching it here just my own theory) Demise curse will always chase Zelda and Link no matter how much time it passes so Ganondofr will always be there so it will be normal he is there all the time. Skyloft was done by Hylia, here we have confirmation it was the power of the Sages who lifted the Sky islands for Link. Its not changing the history but it does seem to repeat itself because is a "restart" of a new lore. Again Fujibayashi can't make it official for legal matters but he is hinting the new forging of Hyrule is after the past time lines buried by the merging of the timeline merging which this is a reason why you keep finding all the ancient tunics and masks in the underworld. I guess another hint that they are putting the past under for a new history to be written.

[@volcanicz6739]

You could also make an argument that the Dragonification could be a "curse" so maybe Rauru's light powers were there to purify Zelda while Sonia uses recall on her

[@javi8905]

There is a stone tablet underneath hyrule castle that says that the castle was built where it was as a seal for ganondorf. But we also see the ruins of the town from ocarina of timr on the great plateau which means hyrule castle was over there at some point. Meaning this ganon cant be the first iteration of ganon. Its more likely that this takes place so far into the future another founding of hyrule happens after the destruction of the one previous

[@scythelord]

That would work... but, in Rauru's time, the Temple of Time on the Great Sky Island was exactly where the Temple of Time is on the Great Plateau. The seat of their power was the great plateau. I prefer to believe they built on top of the ruins of the past Hyrule. Built that meaninglessly large Zonai designed Temple of Time on top of the ruins of the OoT Temple of Time. Then later when the temple ascended to the air, a new Temple of Time was built matching the original pre-Zonai style.

[@alyandthecats]

I interpreted it more as, Rauru's kingdom ruled from the Great Plateau, they were pushed back to the place where the castle is now, Rauru seals Ganon, and then they move the castle from the Plateau to the current location afterwards to keep the seal safe.

[@eduardo-fc8ft]

it would make sense, but zelda in the prologue states that the imprisoning war that is told throughout the game occurs at the time of the earliest legend, the previous zelda games are described in botw as the era of legends and the mention of a "heroe of the sky" in botw would state that zelda directly refers to "the earliest legend" as a time not long before skyward sword

[@justinlovell13]

​@@alyandthecatsthey weren't pushed back. The location of the castle in present day is where they originally fought Ganondorf in the past. They then built the castle atop the sealing chamber

[@Raganui]

It's possible that at some point the Great Sea from Windwaker receded and people were able to settle the area again. Then the Zonai showed up later (New Hyrule may have been lost by this time or they became the Zonai) and they formed Hyrule again where it once was established.

[@fishnewt1331]

In my opinion, people who say that Zelda’s decision is weakened by Link undoing it are ones who forget just how much Zelda has gone through. This girl fought a Calamity tooth and nail for a hundred years and now she had to fight the source of the Calamity knowing she would lose and try to figure out a way to get back to the past, which led to a choice that she believed would end with her to never see her home again. After all that, her suffering should stay permanent? Nah, I don’t think so. This is more akin to a friend or family member pulling you out of a situation after all the hard work you did, rather than a deus ex machina to reverse a contrived decision. Zelda suffered and she worked hard enough as it is. It’s not a bad thing to allow her to have a happy ending as her protector, Link.

[@Rusty_Spy]

None of that changes the fact that it's still contrived and undermines her sacrifice and it's for one reason, there's no consequences. Zelda isn't consciously aware of her time as a dragon, the caveat that becoming a dragon is permanent is thrown out the window; this momentous decision that Zelda believes will be the death of her as a person, that is given so much weight is hand waved away and amounts to little more than a long nap time for her. It's functionally no different than if she just stepped inside a cyro tube and went to sleep. At least in BoTW she's still 100 removed from the world she knows, her family is still dead and the kingdom in ruins, and she still experiences her time sealed with Ganon at the very least for the duration of the game from when Link wakes up, if not the entire 100 years.

[@thewardenofoz3324]

​@@Rusty_Spywell considering that both BotW and TotK's stories are contrived garbage in a world where all races of Hyruleans happily coexist with a hiveminded demon army that has the advantage of infinite blood-moon respawns (and even an overseer villain with more presence of mind than BotW's Spider Pig) is why I can't take either game seriously. Hyrule should be in an even worse bind than Termina with their world on the brink of destruction, and yet the tone of the dialogue shows its denizens to be happy-go-lucky imbeciles who are mostly oblivious to the goings-on around them. "Wut? Demon King? Who could dat be? Secret stones? Wut's dat? Wait. How do I build this sign? I work in construction, and you need to show me 80 more times before I get it." Sorry, not sorry. But Nintendo is just canonically _bad_ at writing a compelling narrative or good characters once a game's world reaches a certain scope of development. Sandbox games with cereal box narratives.

[@Rusty_Spy]

@@thewardenofoz3324 not sure what game you're playing because even discounting the main story quest lines, every village in the game has quests specifically about dealing with monster attacks, Lurelin village is literally destroyed and taken over by monsters and npcs from there are scattered throughout the world, random npcs out in the wild are often under attack by basic bokoblins, there's an entire monster control crew directly fighting against enemy camps, and plenty of people will talk about how dangerous it is to travel and multiple people do acknowledge the blood moon. And the reason nobody is aware of the demon king is because... Literally NO ONE knows about the demon king. You only find out about him through the memories and the sage quests, and once you get all the sages and reach the end game, npcs DO start acknowledging the demon king because that's when word finally gets out about him. And it's funny you talk about npcs in TotK being oblivious to the goings on around them when that's literally how the people of Termina act, except those people are being willfully ignorant of the literal moon hanging over their heads.

[@thewardenofoz3324]

@@Rusty_Spy they are barely cognizant of what words mean. I honestly think they neither understand _demon_ nor _king_ the way they speak, just like how Lurelin said "pirates" when it turned out to be just more of the same enemies. And because Nintendo is so hamfisted with the dialogue, they literally explain it directly "oh well we just called them 'pirates' because they took over our village!" Nintendo is almost always so on-the-nose with their kiddy dialogue. There's almost never any room for subtlety or expansiveness. What you see is what you get. Some weaker writings may be from the translational nightmare of Japanese to English, but this is 2023 and there are very fluent, savvy translators that Nintendo can afford. They also could've had exceptionally better story tellers. The fact that it's a sandbox is no excuse since games like Witcher 3 exist on a budget even smaller than BotW's. Most characters are written exclusively for children with childish dialogue. Lurelin is no exception. One more thing, when you clear out their village, it's peace on earth indefinitely in their corner of the world. Tell me how that even remotely makes sense when the blood moon causes enemies to spawn in their original territory.

[@Rusty_Spy]

@@thewardenofoz3324 what does it say about you that childish dialogue written for children is still too complicated for you to follow with how you can't even pay attention to what characters say or how they act. And worse, start nitpicking about things that don't even happen in the game.

[@SamtheBravesFan]

I mean, I thought it was simple enough. Ganon's Malice and Ganondorf and the gloom are two entirely different things. The Malice is all that got out the first time. That ends up being the indicator that Rauru's seal was breaking. Then comes the Gloom with the final stage.

[@donovanhunter4150]

Ya like gloom is just the much more concentrated version of malice. Malice was less pure so it could only hurt you and if it were to touch enemies it would just hurt them, whereas gloom can literally infect enemies and steal your life force.

[@wufilo256]

i believe malice hurts you because calamity ganon is a feral part of ganons power, while gloom is made to make people suffer since its from the sentient, sadistic form of ganons power

[@falco05]

Gloom is from Ganondorf himself while Malice is a weaker form since it oniy comes from Ganon, whixh is merely Ganondorfs Puppet with a fraction of his True Power

[@novustalks7525]

​@@falco05gloom is not from ganondorf. The final area is called gloom's origin

[@falco05]

@@novustalks7525 He literally created a fake Zelda made out of gloom. Also, he literally shoots Gloom out of his hands in the opening cutscene, his attacks do gloom damage. Also, the final Area is where he was unsealed, or rather under it and he powered up using gloom before the fight.

[@stephbenson7340]

I think what bumps me and makes me think there's still some kind of reset (whether soft reset, as in they just wanted to start fresh; or hard reset, as in Hyrule was actually wiped out and re-founded) is... The Rito. They don't appear until Wind Waker, when they're very explicitly descendants of the Zora due to the existence of the Great Sea. And yet both Rito and Zora exist, both in BotW/TotK's present, as well as the distant past of Hyrule's founding.

[@MiraBoo]

I think the Rito being descendants of Zora was retconned a long time ago. But even if it wasn’t, a few Zora breaking off and evolving into Rito in all the timelines isn’t farfetched, so it’s not really a problem.

[@IanJulian02]

@@MiraBoo The rito are still connected to the Zora. It was a very clear intention in wind water and their divine beast in botw was named after Medli, the sage of Earth. The Zora never have a consistent design game to game, so even though the Rito look different in botw. I still believe it is the same tribe as the ones in the windwaker. There are too many inconsistencies for totk to actually be connected to skyward sword. I believe Hyrule is cursed or destined to forever repeat its own history, and as such, we are so far into the future of the Zelda timeline that all events have in essence paralleled themselves multiple times.

[@novustalks7525]

Totk literally explains the zora came from another kingdom, and the rito on the ark after the previous upheavel

[@Andrew-qu7lq]

21:00 notice how Zelda's sage / secret stone power is already shown to be a combination of Sonia and Rauru's powers, each having distinct wave pattern and particles and Zelda's combining both of them.

[@TerranigmaQuintet]

Which makes sense because they are her ancestors, and has genes from both sides in her, makes sense she has the combined powers as well then.

[@darkseraph2009]

Sonia even says *exactly* how Zelda would be saved when teaching Zelda to use her time powers. To paraphrase "It's like remembering how the object used to be, and calling that memory forth."

[@VardrunCRidleyKnight]

Oh wow, that pretty much confirms it in my eyes

[@richardgagnon4317]

I was thinking the same thing!

[@defearl]

My issue with the whole “recall restored Zelda” thing is that we’ve only seen recall used on **objects**, not living beings. I mean sure you can just say that Sonia is just that powerful or whatever, but pulling the “I’m secretly a lot more powerful” card at the very end cheapens the story for me.

[@accrosser]

@@defearl How do you think she ended up in the past to begin with? The ability recall is poorly explained as is. Also Sonia is shown to be weaker than Zelda. The only reason they were able to restore Zelda is due to the power that Zelda passed onto Link.

[@novustalks7525]

​@@defearlthe master sword is a living being

[@enderking6904]

Take note, in Botw the leviathan skeletons were meant to represent the three timelines. In ToTk one of the three skeletons is revealed to have had a child. A fourth, fledgling timeline.

[@squidlytv]

That could be a reference to either our timeline or Age of Calamity

[@alexandriagorham1275]

Oooh I like this please elaborate 😮

[@mbii7667]

Wait how do we know these skeletons represent timelines?

[@kierenbuckley370]

It doesn't make any sense how Zelda in TOTK didn't at any point connect Ganondorf and Calamity Gannon, they acknowledge the Calamity to a degree but never Calamity Gannon

[@DentyOne]

Well, she does try to warn them about this man they just met with in the throne room. We assume she's just 'sensing' his evil, but who knows what she's actually referring to?

[@raskolnikov6443]

Why? If some evil power called Johnathan kills your whole family and you travel 20K years to the past and meet a John you might be suspicious but you wouldn’t be 100% convinced that he is the cause of this evil power 20K into the future. That’s how she acted in the game. She was clearly suspicious.

[@kierenbuckley370]

@@raskolnikov6443 yeah she obviously was suspicious of him being evil but not linking Ganondorf as Calamity Gannon

[@AndresRestart]

She actually remarks on how his name is unsettling to her. Check memory #7.

[@kierenbuckley370]

@@AndresRestart doesn't state who and why

[@jonah.w7397]

The guardians from SS are the inspiration behind the zonai design I believe. Just looking at Rauru it’s very clear he’s essentially a reskinned SS guardian. He wears the same robes, they both have 3 eyes, and they have the same long pointed ears. So I think it’s safe to say that the zonai ARE present in SS, but it’s unclear if those are meant to be some form of construct that resembles the zonai or if they’re organic beings

[@Jeremyb2023]

That is interesting and there are similarities. It's also ironic that the guardians are protecting the "tears" which in TOTK are of zonai origin. However, their 3 eye placement is different, but that is interesting the similarities!

[@novustalks7525]

Nope

[@lowki07]

I like your eventuality theory. It helps explain part of my theory that BOTW and the beginning of TOTK take place across all three timelines towards the end of all of them. The memories from TOTK either take place before or after Skyward Sword but definitely before the events of Ocarina. This means that their HAS to be a Ganondorf trapped underneath Hyrule castle across the three timelines which also means that there must be a Dragon Zelda flying around in the sky across the timelines as well. At the end of TOTK when Zelda is turned back into a Hylian, that closes the loop so to speak and converges the timelines creating only one going forward.

[@daniloberserk]

People are overcomplicating something rather simple. Even the past events on TOTK happens after every other game, OG Hyrule Kingdom just fell at some point and was "rebooted" by Rauru and Sonia. The game is a "soft reboot" and a convergence of every game, as history of Hyrule is cyclical, same events are bound to happen again and again. It makes no sense for this "Ganondorf" to exist at the same time as other "Ganondorfs". Names barely means anything in any Zelda games, as they're there just to be "symbolic" in some sense. The point of the entire lore of Zelda lore is to create your "own" interpretation of the events, there are some things clear as water and some that aren't. So we fill that void with those discussions, which is part of the fun.

[@ttmfndng201]

​@@daniloberserk Your theory makes sense, but honestly it feels a bit like a band-aid solution. You could explain pretty much anything you want with hyrule being destroyed and refounded. And there are plenty of reasons to think this is the same hyrule as in all the other games, since you can find gear that belonged to all the other heroes, you can find the same locations and races, and there are plenty of references to past games. And I don't understand your last point. isn't that exactly what both the comment you're replying to and the video are doing? they're creating interpretations of the events in all of the zelda games, and trying to make them fit.

[@Zero0fTime]

Hard to deny that the memories take place about 400 years before Ocarina of time. In the memory where Ganondorf is bending the knee to Rarau. You can see two young Gerudo woman behind him in gold masks one with a blue cape and one with a red cape with the names Kotake and Koume written in Gerudo text on said capes. Kotake and Koume are roughly 400 years old in Ocarina of Time. And look about mid twenties in the TOTK memory. 400 years of life and after watching 3 other gerudo males come and go, they see something in the fourth. A new gerudo male that reminded them of their former king. They then gave him the same name and raised him to take on their original kings image and evil ambition.

[@daniloberserk]

​@@ttmfndng201 Even before the launch of TOTK, Nintendo said BOTW was at the very end of the timeline. The question was in WHAT timeline. At that point, some people was already theorizing about that game working as a convergence for every timeline. It happens SO FAR into the future that old games became myths. If we understand that the history of the curse of Demise is cyclical, then, it isn't an "stretch" to think that every timeline has it's own version of the same events happening again and again. We can also say for sure that the timeline of Zelda may be completely pointless as we can have an "split" in any major point with time travel. Then we can also say for sure that it also doesn't make sense to exist only a single time "split". It's also not the first time that Hyrule as a kingdom was destroyed and then restored again. So Hyrule, as a land is the same, but the Kingdom itself isn't. There are still questions to be answered, but in general, we have enough evidence to say that both of those games just can't happen before or between ANY of the other games. We can also say that although Hyrule Kingdom is vast, it may be just a tiny portion of the entire world, so MAYBE exploring distant lands is the next step for Zelda games, as we do have the technology now to make it interesting and it may answer some questions about the origin of some races and so on. And although we CAN make theories about the timeline, past games still DOES have some major sources of information that we must rely on, like the creation of the Master Sword for example. And none of then implies that Ganondorf can duplicate itself or be reborn while still being technically alive. It doesn't make any sense for the spirit of the Bringer of Demise/Tyraniccal Being/Demon King to co-exist in two different beings at the same time. And THAT'S WHY Calamity happened after all. Ever since Ganondorf was sealed, the Calamity started to happen, as he literally refuses to die, so, his hatred and Malice leaks and overtime, it became the Calamity as we seen in BOTW. It feels like a "bandage fix"? I personally disagree, I think it's an very good way to lead the direction for future games and also to celebrate it's past legacy. BOTW is like an reinterpretation of the very first game and a new format for future releases, we can almost say that we're now in the 3rd "Era" of Zelda games. And I'm sure Nintendo never pretended to have rigid rules about continuity or anything on any of their games. Because it may hinder the flexibility for the gameplay, which is the most important thing. Every game can be picked up and played without major issues, they're all individual stories that stands in a larger "lore" for those really invested on those games. And Nintendo DO care about the timeline and the lore in some degree, seeing how they carefully craft references to other games even in details like the tree on the Forgotten Temple that implies it might be the Sealed Temple from Skyward Sword. And now in TOTK we can say for sure that indeed, it is. In Zelda games, we, as players, are the "Link" for the Spirit of the Hero. We aren't passive watchers of some history being unfold. We craft the history itself. What does matter the most in the lore is the symbolic nature of those archetypes crashing themselves, and the huge amount of references to different religions and spirituality, that makes Zelda games an incredible hero's journey. The problem is that some fans just want an straight answer for every question on those games, and we may never have one. Because, most probably, there isn't an straight "official" answer behind some secret door at Nintendo. Although they do acknowledge the timeline now after YEARS of fans speculation, we can say for sure that Nintendo most probably will launch future games before both BOTW and TOTK, OR, maybe (althoug very unlikely), before SS. Except if they launch some new "Classic 2D" game that may fit the old games. This confusion isn't exclusive to Zelda. Metroid and Mario "lore" are also an insane puzzle if you may want to tie games together. There's enough flexibility to speculate without just ignoring everything else to make an pointless statement.

[@firionkaiser8291]

@@Zero0fTime How do you know that isn't just them reincarnated or a reference? It's not uncommon for characters outside of Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf to reincarnate. You have to remember that placing this before OoT but after SS also places these scenes post Interloper War where the interlopers were sealed into the Twilight Realm and OoT Rauru created OoT's Temple of Time with the other ancient sages who preceded the new ones in OoT aside from Rauru. So the order would be: The Goddesses Create the Land -The Ancient Battle - Skyward Sword - Hylians return to the surface - The Interloper War happens - Interlopers get sealed and OoT Rauru creates the Second Temple of Time - Hyrule Kingdom is Established and the memories in TotK, - The War of the Bound Chest & The Hero of Me - Minish Cap - The First Four Sword wielder prior to events of Four Swords defeats Vaati - Four Swords - Hyrulean Civil War - 9 Years Pass - Ocarina of Time - Three Splits from OoT occur with several other events happeneing - War Against Calamity Ganon - 10,100 Years Pass - BotW - TotK. Those memories can't be 400 years prior to OoT. The gap between The War of the Bound Chest and Minish Cap alone is anywhere from 500 to possibly 1000 years. The very least we know the events happened long before the 100th year of the festival. Between MC and FS we have at least 200 to 500 years between each other, due to the unknown hero prior to FS who is indicated to descend from MC Link, this would be somewhat accurate. Then there's the gap between FS and OoT which can be anywhere from a few centuries to possibly a millennia. I feel it makes more sense that Rauru and Sonia's era happened long after any of the games. All the games prior are considered to be part of the Era of Myth from BotW's Pov. I mean even King Rauru's medallion is a direct reference to OoT Rauru's face and his own form. The games also hint that there was hasn't been a Gerudo male in centuries which implies that TotK Ganondorf still being alive the whole time prevented another male from being born every century. That would go against OoT but we know OoT happened in the history of BotW (Well really all the games did).

[@marcoasierrabernal4893]

For me it makes more sense that at the beginning the ultimate evil was always Ganondorf, makes more sense to me that when ganondorf was sealed he didn’t became the mummy we saw, that power scapes out and become what people call Demise, after all Demaise is not a name for a person nor a god, more for a Force of Nature, Chaos and Hate manifested, so Ganondorf in TOTK doesn’t look like demise but Demise looks like the demon king, with the secret stone remove, so he will be the first Calamity, and after the curse an incarnation of him will hunt Zelda and Link forever, this is why that incarnation is always Ganondorf, because he cursed Link and Zelda in the first place. In TOTK the sky inland’s we’re created, SWS happened, maybe the different races were segregated and then move to different lands and little by little came back to hyrule, then the other games happened ocarina splits the timeline until they combined in BoTW so this will make TOTK the first and Last Zelda Game and makes sense with the symbology after all the logo of tears of the kingdom is an Ouroboros

[@cheergiver]

This makes the most sense so far. I’ve always thought that BOTW was a merging of timelines. The parts that I’m having trouble wrapping my head around are: the Zelda/Hylia blood, if Sonia is the first queen, did Hylia not reincarnate into the bloodline until later? Sonia and Rauru also appear to not have a child, though there’s the possibility I suppose The triforce- it’s there as a motif but never part of the story. I would have expected some explanation OoT’s Ganon is said to be the first, and the Gerudo state there hasn’t been another male so far. His story just really feels like a retcon, but I suppose it could be lost in legend/ a cycle that rhymes. Not the greatest explanation, but there’s no other way to justify it outside of a retcon. I don’t really understand wtf the zonai are or why they had to invent another race into the story. And not just a split off hylians that makes sense, but a furry. race that “founded” Hyrule. It was completely unnecessary.

[@abbymatson5149]

Another thing about the imprisoning war is that it also happened in skyward sword. Hylia sealed Demise, sent the survivors of the war to the sky, and gave up her immortality, setting up the events to skyward sword. I think the imprisoning war is something that often repeats itself in the timeline, every time when the hero has fallen/isn't present. I think of an imprisoning war as an event that happens when there is no hero present to defeat the evil.

[@triplewario]

I've been so obsessed with the timeline since TOTK, but no matter where I put it, some things don't work out. I personally love the theory about the Zonai decending to the surface a good while after Skyward Sword, and that the Zonai have been here and Ganon has been sealed deep underground ever since then, because that makes you see all other games differently rather than just all of this being new events taking place long after the others. It also makes sense and brings new life to older games because Zonai symbolism is seen a lot of places; the Zonai swirl is seen on Midna's helmet, both the square swirl and the round one with a pointy end, which is HUGE. That alone could imply that the Interlopers and thus the Twili are actually Zonai who were after the Triforce, and the Twili magic REALLY resembles the Zonai magic in terms of color and function. The swirl is also on the Sandship's doors in SS, and all over in Tower of the Gods in the Wind Waker, and Gohdan the boss even looks exactly like a Zonai construct. So much of it clicks into place and makes the rest of the series SO much more interesting and mysterious. However... I think it's Hyrule Historia that says that according to Gerudo records, there hasn't been a male Gerudo leader since the king who became the Calamity - which is TOTK Ganondorf. If that is true, then TOTK's memories cannot be after Skyward Sword... It's sad but that one little detail may just contradict this whole theory. Another theory I've personally had is with the Oocca. The Oocca and Zonai have so much in common; both are said to have created Hyrule, both are close to the Gods, both comes from the heavens, both have ties to the royal family, and both are highly advanced. Both also use eye symbolism. It can be speculated that the remaining Zonai evolved/devolved into the Oocca over thousands of years - or, if the imprisoning war happens after all other games, maybe it's the other way around where the Oocca evolves into the Zonai? That, after more thousands of years, they've finally evolved into what we now know as the Zonai and that's when they finally decend back to the surface again? And that the ancient Sheikah tech in BOTW comes from the Sky Book from the Oocca in Twilight Princess, explaining why that book was given to the Sheikah and why the Sheikah and Zonai tech look so similar? But then, when does the 10 000 year calamity take place? After all games? After Skyward Sword? But a Zonai was the hero there, so it had to have been before they died out? And what about the Fused Shadow and its Zonai design? It's so complex... I just hope that there IS a proper thought-out explaination that doesn't have contradictions.

[@manuelgarciajr5308]

Potential Spoilers: From my playtime with ToTK so far, I have come across the Divine Beasts mask which seem to he hidden in places paying homage to the Zonai. In turn, I've come to believe the Sheikah were inspired by the Zonai and decided to either reverse engineer or develop tech similar to the Zonai tribe. Having the Divine Beasts named after Sages of legend and using the masks design on the Divine Beasts to pay respects to them.

[@the42Vance]

Speaking of Midnas mask (and this is all conjecture I haven’t thought very far out) it also has the eye that resembles majoras mask. In that game the happy mask salesmen tells us that Majora was a powerful deity or demon sealed inside of a mask that was worshiped by an ancient tribe and used in their hexing rituals. What if the original majora was a zonai that was evil or deranged and the ancient tribe was the twili before they got banished. We see in Totk the zonai spirit sage Mineru puts her soul into a mask.

[@the42Vance]

I believe that the totk can take place directly after skyward sword and to justify your ganondorf theory, he was basically dead when he was sealed allowing for further reincarnations of demise’s curse. but when the seal weakens Gannondorf begins to revive, his malice starts to rebuild bodies in the form of calamity Gannon and the first calamity occurs which stops the reincarnation cycle. Hence, no more male Garudo. Unfortunately this doesn’t really explain the hero of the first calamity being potentially half zonai (hero’s aspect)

[@squidlytv]

@the42Vance But is he a Zonai? Or is he something else? Or maybe he was originally a Hylian and was turned into this.

[@mrmastaofdesasta6994]

Interesting. The theory that I had was that the history of Hyrule simply spans over such an unimaginably long time that the kingdom was founded and destroyed many times over. So the founding we see in the memories was simply one of them.

[@terpfen]

The revelation that Ganondorf is sealed under Hyrule Castle, and that Hyrule Castle specifically was built on that spot to keep him underground, raises more questions than answers. What was originally in that location that attracted Ganondorf to it? In the Imprisoning War flashbacks, the cavern has some architecture to it -- a dais, stairs leading to it, etc. Why did Ganondorf go there after stealing Sonia's secret stone?

[@sykune]

Well before totk came out I thought the reason he come from underneath castle is because he was sealed in the four sword and the four sword sanctuary was connected to hyrule castle via a portal. But to answer your question what if it was entrance to the sacred realm and he was drawn there perhaps.

[@keenemaverick]

I got the impression that Ganon wasn't necessarily attracted to anything at the hylian castle (which in the past was on the great plateau), he was just pissed that the king of hyrule would exert power over him to ensure peace. He simply sought the power of the secret stone so he could enact a revenge on Rauru for trying to control him. As for why Ganon was in the imprisoning chamber, I got the impression that was where Ganondorf moved his HQ after gaining demon king powers. The cutscene where he raises armies to attack hyrule seems to show him spawning monsters from the north, from what I could glean off the landscapes.

[@itsjudemydude]

Because it's at the center of the kingdom-even more central than Rauru's original castle was on the Great Plateau-and he's just conquered most of Hyrule. A centralized place from which to rule would be pretty high on his list of priorities, being the new king and all.

[@alyandthecats]

It's a good spot to attack the Forgotten Temple from, too, which we see the sages holding frequent council at.

[@TardMania]

I interpreted the past in Totk to still be way way further in the future compared to the other games. Like "Hyrule is long gone" and get's reestablished by Raru, the sage of light. Not to be confused by Raru, the sage of light from OOT. Noteworthy; Zelda has been the sage of time two times now, in OOT, and tears of the kingdom. Maybe She becoming a dragon in this game hints at the end of a "dragonbreak" coined by Bethesda for their game Daggerfall which had 5 different endings but which all compiled to one timeline in the next game. I think this ends the three timelines from OOT and brings them back to one.

[@nivolord]

I agree. I also think they called the Kingdom Hyrule precisely after the ancient kingdom of legend that Sonia may have known about.

[@squidlytv]

The thing is, Zelda going to before OOT solves the timeline split. Because no matter what happens in OOT the light dragon is Zelda from TOTK, which forces that event to happen in all 3 timelines.

[@hehimgoddess]

Something else, you can actually see a much younger Koume and Kotake behind Ganondorf both times he’s seen with the Gerudo. My belief is that when they got older, they raised OoT’s Ganondorf to be a successor to TOTK’s Ganondorf. Also, I agree with everything you said! It all fits so nicely in my opinion.

[@JeremySolo]

Love it. This was the exact explanation I came up with as well. In addition, I believe that the time shift stone areas in SS were remnants of the Zonai civilization before they rose to the sky (the robots are precursors to the constructs) and also Sonia would be the descendant of SS Link and Zelda

[@uni4rm]

Rauru appears to also had been using his tear to hold up some of the islands as well as hold Ganon. When Zelda teleports away the tear vanishes and then we see chunks of the islands fall to the ground.

[@Fuzunga]

Did you not unlock the post-credits scene? I'm guessing maybe a lot of people didn't because apparently you have to have completed all the main questlines for it to play. Mineru literally explains how Rauru and Sonia channel their powers of light and time through Link in order to restore Zelda to her old self.

[@ImNotAWitchImYourWIFI]

i honestly love how much Gannon in this game resembles Demise though. i think this actually fits so well after Skyward. I think the timing is at least mildly intentional. This is a game that comes after Skyward, and even if he's bound, he can be re-incarnated.

[@firionkaiser8291]

The game can't come after Skyward if OoT already happened by the time of the game's events.

[@TheMentorOfMomos]

@@firionkaiser8291 the gameplay part is happening after OoT, but Rauru's time is after SS, i think that's what they mean

[@firionkaiser8291]

@@TheMentorOfMomos I figured that was the case too but even that has it's own problems. I think it makes more sense that they refounded Hyrule rather than them being actual first king and queen of Hyrule. Plus factoring in OoT Rauru's dates back to before the kingdom was even established, it makes more sense that the distant past we see in TotK is still after all the games, with this new Rauru coming after OoT's Rauru.

[@redgeoblaze3752]

@@firionkaiser8291 That wouldn't really work well either. When Zelda first shows up in the past, she introduces herself as the daughter of King Rhoam, and Rauru says that doesn't make sense since he's the very first king of Hyrule. First, that's uncharacteristically prideful of him to label himself the first king of the land called Hyrule only because he "refounded" it knowing that there were previous kings. Second, he's not dumb enough to not even consider the previous kings when addressing Zelda's introduction. He and Sonia only consider that she's from the future rather than the past, which wouldn't make sense if Hyrule was the name of the kingdom that came before Rauru.

[@firionkaiser8291]

@@redgeoblaze3752 Why are you under the assumption that he would even be aware of the previous Hyrule? Its not being prideful if you aren't even aware of the previous kingdom. As some people who have analyzed his map have noticed, the kingdom during his era had dealt with a receding ocean of some sort including Spectacle rock still being one rock. With how far everything in the future is, to say that that he's aware of the previous king is debatable. Hell if we go by Creating a Champion, it outright states that the Gerudo haven't had another male born every century since the one who turned into the calamity, which confirms that OoT Ganondorf did come first. There's also the whole lack of a Temple of Time on the Great Plateu in the memories seen in TotK, despite it being built prior to the kingdom's establishment which makes me think it's a different ToT designed similarly to the one in OoT.

[@DJamesofSalt]

It still doesn't make sense for Rito and Zora to coexist in the past. It would have to be in the far future. Makes sense to me that it's so far into the future that Hyrule has had many new beginnings / foundings

[@WindMageMaster]

My interpretation is that Nintendo clearly want Rito and Zora to have no relation and to be completely separate now. The Rito in these two recent games also seem different than the ones in Wind Waker. Such would only mean that when the Zora evolve in Wind Waker, they’re either adopted into the Rito tribe or simply take up the name. Pretty simple easy explanation for Nintendo to not be bound by that rule anymore.

[@mrbiscuits001]

I agree, the Zonai Hyrule was founded AFTER the main timeline. In my mind the Zonai came down and conquered. I don’t think all of them were good like Rauru. Zonai Hyrule being founded afterwards is even hinted at in memories, you can see zonai structures built on top of older Hyrulein ruins.

[@Dmrgamingdoesgames]

eventuality theory is such a good name for it. Ive always thought of the timeline this way but never had the right words to describe it

[@DiLeJoe]

I fully agree! that was also my issue when other people has brought up SS - the monarchy simply didn't exist yet. in one of the side quests a text is mentioned that explains that Sonia was a priestess when she met Rauru. And wouldnt it make sense that the descendant of the incarnation of Hylia was a priestess? She sure looks a lot like Zelda! To me, if Fi exists and is acknowledged both by Zelda and the Great Deku Tree, if Hylia exists, if in the base game you can get the white sword from SS and all the previous games' armor, and the other legends are mentioned in Zelda's speech when Link is knighted, then they really happened within the lore of botw/totk Granted, the timeline has always required some mental gymnastics, but personally I think it's fun to try to make sense of it, lol. I think it's nice that Nintendo to a certain extent lets it be up to interpretation. if you hate the timeline, you can look at botw/totk as a reboot that discards it. if you like the timeline, then you can try to make it make sense. :)

[@firionkaiser8291]

Her being a priestess wouldn't be that far off. This is before a kingdom is established but considering everything. It makes more sense that everything shown in BotW and TotK is still after every title in the series. This being a new Hyrule built on top of the original after a massive amount of time had passed since any of the previous titles.

[@Zelda_Thorn]

some really good points and i also had always sort of assumed that rauru and sonia saved zelda at the end through the use of recall, or if not, that it was a moment of divine grace from spirits in the next realm. i'll say that the pursuit of a One Timeline To Rule Them All, where everything fits neatly in with everything else in the whole series, has never been interesting to me and i don't think it's all that interesting to nintendo either. i think they like it when people theorize - of course they want people talking about the games - but to me this has always been a multiverse situation. timelines branch off and recombine and every zelda is essentially in its own universe unless expressly stated to be a direct sequel. i personally think that makes the series more interesting and more free. it gives the series an air of dreamtime, myth, legend, where the past is sometimes as uncertain and unknowable as the future. which makes me think of karen barad, who you might be interested in. they're a theoretical physicist turned philosopher of ontology and epistemology who says (very convincingly) that unless proven or directly observed to have occurred in a certain way, elements of the past are in as much of an uncertain, undefined, quantum state as elements of the future. we live in a little bubble of stable reality formed around the now by our own observation, but the distant past and distant future are both up for grabs.

[@Kryszkiewicz666]

I have a theory regarding timeline splits. So as we know, there is a timeline split because of the time travel of OOT, therefore it could be assumed that there may be timeline splits with the other times that time travel was used. So importantly for TOTK, Skyward sword creates a timeline split that leads one way as usual and the other way to the events in the memories of TOTK.

[@cavemanbuddyolpal]

This is my favorite theory for its placement

[@pondbrothers806]

I had thought of it sort of like the Timeline split once Ganon knocked the Master Sword away from Link. To me, it made a lot of sense.

[@pickedceasar1216]

@@cavemanbuddyolpal unless it's a timeline where all the events of every game could have happened in one timeline then it doesn't really make sense Especially because they've put both BotW and TotK at the end of the timeline. Including the 10,000 years between Botw and the past events of TotK

[@-Zechariot]

@@pickedceasar1216 Nintendo aren't reliable sources for when their own games take place. They once said Link's awakening happened IN BETWEEN a loading screen in Zelda 2. They also said ALTTP happens in 3 different placements before deciding it happens in the downfall. If they say it takes place somewhere without it being on official document that the writing teams can access too in order to be sure so they don't just say "Nah nevermind it actually happens here", then it is to be taken with a grain of salt. A lot of them actually. Even so, it can still happen after Ocarina of Time, just in a different timeline, where Ocarina didn't happen. References like the hero clothes you can get aren't canon, as items that are basically easter eggs rarely ever are. And the end of the timeline thing only accounts for when the GAME takes place, the events of it. Not the memories included as part of its PAST. Those aren't current events of the game, they happened long ago, where as the game takes place long after.

[@pickedceasar1216]

@@-Zechariot they literally said it on the website so that's about as official as it gets right now As of right now there's no reason to believe the past events shown in TotK take place in some alternate timeline as those events themselves take place thousands of years after any of the three timelines The Hyrule we see in TotKs past could have been refounded after 10's-100's of thousands of years after any of the previous games. Enough time for all events of every timeline to have conceivably happen

[@Ryuxpale]

Great vid, Andre. I'd also like to add onto your last point regarding Zelda's draconification being hinted throughout the game... At the very beginning of the game when Link holds Zelda's hand in the temple of time, that suggests that Zelda's spirit or being is still intact to an extent. This must be the case because it takes place in the same spirit realm we are in when speaking to the past sages during the post dungeon cutscenes. Also, during the time this happened we know in hindsight that Zelda was currently a dragon. The quest log describes this sequence as "hearing Zelda's voice and feeling her presence". Lastly, when speaking to impa at the forgotten temple after collecting all the memories, she suggests zelda could be turned back into human.

[@MugenAeternum]

Was it ever established that Sonia died? When Zelda told Rauru that Sonia needed her I felt like ahead was still alive. You need a reason to have a bloodline, specifically for Zelda's light and time powers. Maybe she was pregnant by then? He dress does look a little "maternity" like

[@goombalo10]

@@MugenAeternum Yes she super died, the memory after that one starts with Rauru staring at her grave.

[@MelissaBrownell-pz3fe]

They may have had a child. It's just never seen or mentioned.

[@curties]

@@MugenAeternum She is dead, there is even a grave in the hidden/lost temple. Rauru and Sonia having a kid off screen before she died is basically guaranteed.

[@hauntedpanels]

The solution to the problem is the easiest one. This imprisoning war happens before breath of the wild, but still way long after any event in the canon timeline. I think what gets people confused is the idea that this is the first founding of Hyrule EVER. It's so far into the future that there could be an unknown amount of Hyrules that have risen and fallen. It's happened at least once, where Tetra founded her own Hyrule, so I don't think it's far off to say Rauru did the same thing. This idea makes what could be inconsistencies way cleaner to understand and explain. The story direction for BoTW seems to detach any connections to the older games, isolating it in it's own bubble. ToTK is now a part of that bubble, including the founding of Zonai Hyrule.

[@AndresRestart]

This is what I thought when I first beat the main story, but then I considered how in Breath of the Wild Zelda talks about the events of Skyward Sword, Ocarina of Time, and Twilight Princess in the first memory of the game. So those events have not been forgotten by history. I still like the idea of this being a new kingdom of Hyrule after all this events though. I might do a bit more research into the depths and consider this angle more!

[@GamingxKnight]

@@AndresRestart The main problem with the cutscene you refer to is that it would imply that the child timeline would the the 'true' timeline as there's no mention of events in the other timelines. But those events could merely have been spoken of as fables/legends that the royal family pass down, and there could be other tales that Zelda simply didn't use/mention in the ceremony. Not as historical facts, but as tales to tell of heroic heroes rising up to boost moral of the soldiers and the people that they would always come out okay. I think the commenter has the right idea that the kingdom Rauru establishes is a new one separate from the others in past games as BOTW takes place so far off into the future that the others have been lost to time. I actually made a LONG post in your comments about my theory if you want to take a look at it.

[@NintendoKnight1]

This is backed by the fact that in Breath of the Wild it is stated that since the last Gerudo King became the Calamity, they have not had another male born into the Gerudo tribe. This cements the fact that the distant past shown in Tears of the Kingdom is still many millennia after Ocarina of Time and the final games of each respective timeline split. BotW & TotK happen so far in the future that even their distant pasts do not change anything else in the known timeline because they haven't had another Ganondorf since TotK's Imprisoning War.

[@heroofmasks]

@@AndresRestart we can't forget 1 flaw initially after ss and that being the rito didn't exist until after ww where they evolved from the Zora tribe and while I can believe e that a event happened that gave us both probably a event that gave Zoran a choice I can't belive ritos went missing probably for 10s of thousands of years just to show back up. Now as for the game it has to be after a fall of hyrule and refounding of a new one.

[@heroofmasks]

Also people don't realize there can be more then 1 imprisoning war it's the same as ww1 and ww2 there both a world war.

[@chineseman6580]

Rito and Zora cannot exist at the same time until the timeline reconverges

[@GrailArbor]

I think Hylia is an amalgam of Rauru, Sonia, and Zelda, and that SS is the history and prophecy told by them to the people of Hyrule prior to Zelda’s draconification. People already thought the Zonai were gods. AND I don’t think the dragons are named after the Golden Goddesses. I think they ARE the Golden Goddesses, ascended to the heavens, and the other names (din/eldin, nayru/lanayru, farore/faron) are just the Hylian translation, like ares/mars and Aphrodite/venus.

[@neptuneplaneptune3367]

Honestly I think its more likley the reason we have two Imrpsioning Wars is because they where simply both named "The imprisoning war" as both are basicley the same events but utterly disconnectet too each other so it makese sense the poeple would simply refer too both by the same name

[@netweed09]

I mean, I'm not too hot on winding and wonderful timeline threads or theories - but honestly Tears can be what it wants. I love it. ❤😄

[@gundamgamer7060]

Ganondrof's sealed corpse in TotK can't have influenced later male Gerudo, because there _were_ no other males born during his time sealed by King Rauru below Hyrule Castle.

[@davidalonsosariego2618]

Another (less interesting) theory for how Rauru founding Hyrule fits in the timeline is that he is not the first to do it. It could be that these games happen so far into the future that at some point Hyrule was destroyed and forgotten and then refounded by Rauru, and the Ganondorf from these games is not the first but the last incarnation of Demise

[@Tycholarfero]

honestly this is almost certainly the case, nintendo wants things to be simple in the end and this is the simplest answer, and the one i got from both botw and totk

[@mookiestewart3776]

@@Tycholarferoyeah this seems to be the main prevailing theory regarding timeline placement currently

[@MsMonkeyKid]

The hyrule castle that was prominent in tears of the kingdom wasn’t the first hyrule castle from ocorina of time that castle is located on the great pleatau in ruins. You can find the entrance gate near the temple of time on the great plateau. Zelda’s father even mentions how the kingdom was founded on the plateau in breath of the wild

[@Manny13840]

I still believe in a merged timeline, Zonai founded a new hyrule and a new imprisoning war happened.

[@Dd-fb2tj]

Timeline don't merge. If you are thinking that fanciful you might aswell make another timeline.

[@JWalker444]

@@Dd-fb2tj why can't they merge? The timeline was split due to the sage of time, why wouldn't the sage of time be able to fix it in some way? It's all goddess magic anyway

[@MelissaBrownell-pz3fe]

Yes, timelines can remerge. If enough events in timelines are the same, a remerging can happen.

[@JWalker444]

@@MelissaBrownell-pz3fe I know it's not Canon, and it wouldn't really make sense, but I like the hyrule warriors merge

[@EnriqueGlz48]

I feel that the de-draconification was the work of the tri force in the spirit realm, courage from Link, Wisdom from Sonia and Power from Rauru. Sonia is very insightful in the memories and Ganondorf even takes a jab at Rauru about the power he squandered.

[@redonslaught3019]

Only issues are Ocarina was said to the origin of Gannon, which is why FSA is placed after it on the time-line... So in theory FSA placement can now be changed. Also isn't there evidence the Castle moved a bit mostly because of the Temple of Time, so did they also move the Corpse as well... Or did it replace something else? Like say after Ocarina they found a "Forgotten Sealed Temple" and when they found out what it contained just the rebuilt the castle on top of it, or something? I also first thought the King Rauru was before Skyward, but felt the races debunk it as well. But just cause we didn't see them doesn't mean they weren't there... I mean the Zonai would have been around and we didn't see them either, They came from the sky so I bet they knew of Skyloft and even followed them down... But I do like the idea Rauru and Sonya parenting Hylia, goddess of Light and Time who leads men into the sky who then name the kingdom after her, but that's not as likely. Also with Twinnova being the Corpse Gannon's young guards in the past, Ocarina would be likely be around a hundred years after the age of King Rauru... Using dark magic to stay alive and control the Gerudo until the master is reborn, who they then raise as his adopted mothers... Explains why they were obsessed. But I struggle with the end bit, if Hylia's spirit is above Hyrule for 10,000 years can it also reincarnate or would that prevent it as she's already alive in the world... Or is it because of she was there did it happened in the first place? Like is she the one deciding when her spirit is needed on the surface and birthing it herself?

[@MelissaBrownell-pz3fe]

Zelda isn't really a reincarnation anymore. It's more of a bloodline trait. So zelda and her mother both could possess the power at the same time.

[@redonslaught3019]

Also should be noted, the "Legend" excuse means nothing in the old games can be "trusted" so the events seen in Skyward are also up for debate... Say it was all told wrong... The Hylia who led them to the sky was the Light Dragon, and Skyloft was just the Sky Islands built for TotK's events... Just saying if your using the Legend excuse Rauru's time could in fact be from before the misremembered legend of the Skyloft... Hell maybe they never rode giant birds but had Rito partners, but then stories just said they once few with large birds and so we got the Loftwings..

[@redonslaught3019]

@@MelissaBrownell-pz3fe many of Zelda's mothers could use the power many having vision, it's always been a power passed down to women in the bloodline. But not all were "reincarnations" of Hylia... Are you saying none of the past Zeldas were Hylia? So are you saying the whole concept is a lie then?

[@oblitusunum6979]

Zelda 2 says there can be more than 1 zelda with powers.

[@firionkaiser8291]

@@redonslaught3019 The legend excuse only applies when a game that happens after decides to reference it or they're talking about another story entirely. Kinda like how Wind Waker's legend on OoT was slightly different from what actually happened. I'd say the games are the definitive version of these legends. Plus I'm pretty sure SS Zelda would've mentioned anything about being a dragon since she remembers everything pre SS.

[@perpetualsalt]

You know it's wild to me that people haven't realized that TotK is a love letter to the franchise as a whole.

[@phoenix042x7]

We minimize contradictions if we accept that this is yet another timeline -- one in which Link never appears at all at the beginning of OoT -- and combine that with the fact that Rauru was actually never a Hylian (detail lost to time in legend). Hylia (via Zelda) has to rectify this by sending her back in time to warn the King, which, due to Link not being there to have taken out Ganondorf's monsters, led to an Imprisoning War early rather than him being arrested and then tried later (as per Twilight Princess). The Master Sword ends up being in the past twice, but is really just the same blade from both past and future existing in the same time. It remains asleep until the Hero from the events described in BoTW needs it so that it can be preserved for the events in ToTK. No multiple Ganondorfs, no need to try to rationalize the other events from other timelines ever having happened (though the eventuality concept does serve us well here). Ganon (the boar/pig form) always seems to come about if Ganondorf is sealed away in other timelines, and this is consistent with the Calamity in BoTW -- suggesting that there is only ever one of them per timeline, who is eventually killed in each one (Wind Waker, Twilight Princess, and now ToTK; we are left with him still sealed in Downfall still, though). I find this to be the simplest and most consistent explanation for all of this, as frustrating as this might be to accept for some, particularly in that it actually doesn't serve to tie everything together in the end at all. But it is what it is.

[@dreamer1292]

That doesn't work, it contradicts the zonai mines, the mural above rauru in the ganondorf bowing cutscene, contradicts references to past games etc. The actual most solvable timeline is the distant future explanation, where the past of totk takes place long after all timelines, the only "contradictions" for that are: Repeating characters/names: which is not inherently a contradiction due to how many repeating characters we have all over the timeline, having other rauru, kotake and koume is like having other link, zelda, beedle and tingle. The first Hyrule statement: which also isn't a contradiction when you consider its a refunding of Hyrule long after the originals were forgotten, and btw overall people forget rauru is not a reliable narrator, he says first hyrule but he could be wrong the same way he was about zelda not being in the past of the future she came from.

[@PJCVita92]

"we are left with him still sealed in Downfall still, though" Spoiler from Zelda 1. Ganon dies! Hence the whole point of Zelda II when Ganon's servants seek to revive him but fail. Unless, you want to argue that perhaps the first two games are no longer canon or significant to the timeline due to those games being so old and outdated.

[@firionkaiser8291]

Not possible as OoT was confirmed to have happened in the history of BotW. and we have in game confirmation, Creating a Champion and even Aonuma to go by.

[@CrashDunning]

THIS 100% is everything I've been thinking. It's also possible that the "founding of Hyrule" is simply this specific reign of Hyrule that happens in the 10,000 years between these games, which means basically none of this needs to be justified. However one thing, the line at 16:11 that seemingly mentions Twilight Princess and the other games is entirely in the English script. All of the other games, including the Japanese, make their own game references. So that's really all they are, and they aren't valid for pinpointing these new games into any specific timeline like many people so desperately believe.

[@Daxyl]

My theory for why there seems to be more than one Ganondorf is that this is another timeline split. At the end of Skyward Sword you use the triforce to kill Demise by dropping a temple on him, but then Ghirahim captures Zelda and brings her to the past where Demise is still alive and you have to kill him again. That's two separate timelines where Demise was defeated. Obviously defeating Demise in the past doesn't affect Skyward Sword's present timeline because they still had to stop him in that timeline. So Skyward Sword has its own timeline split.

[@GamingxKnight]

That still doesn't explain more than 1 Ganondorf being around. In the theory in the video, it's stated that there are 2 Ganondorf's at the same time. In Demise's situation, there's only ever 1 Demise in either time: 1 in the present that is killed, and 1 in the past. Now how Demise can be sealed away in the Master Sword in the past, yet be killed in the present by the Triforce is a whole other topic, but keeping on point, there can't be 2 Ganondorf's as Demises curse states that 'AN incarnation....' not 'incarnations....' meaning that there will only ever be 1 incarnation of his hatred and malice at a time.

[@Daxyl]

@@GamingxKnight Andre's multiple Ganondorf theory is completely separate from my Skyward timesplit theory. It is completely onconsequential. If you're talking about BotW having calamity Ganon and TotK having demon king Ganon, I think that calamity Ganon was just an extra powerful phantom of the demon king. And another thing. "AN incarnation" could imply that there is one at any given time, but not neccesarily only one throughout history. Vaati, Bellum, Malladus, and Majora all could have been incarnations acting on Demise's curse.

[@GamingxKnight]

@@Daxyl They all 'could' have been, but they weren't. That's the issue with the multiple incarnations point. We know that they weren't incarnations of Demise's hatred. I will admit that I haven't thought of a Skyward Sword timesplit. It does seem interesting and something I'll have to think over to see if it actually works. Well yeah that's what the Calamity is. It's a manifestation of Ganondorf's malice trying to weaken the seal on him and weaken Hyrule for his return. Even in game when you get Ganondorf's character profile it states that the seal was weakened due to the damage to Hyrule Castle in the last Calamity. So the 3+ Calamity's that Hyrule had to deal with were all Ganondorf trying to break free of the seal.

[@WindMageMaster]

The seal you fight to maintain throughout the game… is most likely Link’s seal from the final battle of the past. It’s why it haunts Link from the start of the game and the Imprisoned reacts specifically to him. How would old Impa have the bracelet the entire game, when she only gets it due to Zelda being dragged back into the past by Ghirahim. It’s a closed loop.

[@firionkaiser8291]

@@Daxyl Unless OoT happens in this split too then it's not possible.

[@wickedonce8863]

I'm excited to hear I'm not the only one who subscribes to the eventuality theory! I personally call it the 'inevitability theory' but it's the exact same concept; that every timeline will eventually turn out the same, no convergence required. It's not widely considered in the fanbase but it's always been my favorite.

[@Greytruth2]

Personally i think that BotW and TotK take place in a new timeline that has been born from the split timelines. You never know, but maybe a Zelda, Link, or someone else somehow became aware of these splits in time and, for whatever reason, needed to fuse them together again. Maybe a wish was made on the triforce to bring them together and it resulted in a reality that combined elements of the splits along with vague memories of history, like a large scale mandela effect that became legends as a new Hyrule was born.

[@m_ron2742]

Or this mew timeline is the “real life timeline” and all the other games/stories are literal legends made up as just stories

[@StonedHunter]

One of my theories is that the Zelda timeline pulls from the Elder Scrolls by having a break in the timeline that eventually gets mended back together without cancelling out any of the unique events. Given how we've seen time magic work in the past, that no matter what changes get made everything comes back together pretty neatly without any major issues. It makes sense to me that after the major break happens in Ocarina, it would take a really long time for those drastically differing timelines to eventually be able to come back together into BOTW/TOTK which is how there are references to just about everything regardless of time line, including landmarks that aren't in their exact locations and the leviathan skeletons.

[@Velarieth]

Spoiler for the ending: I think, it wasn't Sonya and Rauru who switched Zelda back. They were necessary, for sure. But I think Link was the major player in why she changed back at all. I don't think it was recall that did it either. Maybe similar, but not the recall ability exactly. I think it was something Link had. Mineru basically says this. Something about Link was able to accomplish reverting her. I'm not saying "power of love" or anything, I think it's something different than that. Maybe he was motivated by love, but the ability to change her back came from him. Maybe, Link is like, the dormant sage of something. I don't think this works with the story, with Zelda being the Sage of Time specifically. But It would have been cool if they thought she was the Sage of Time, but she wasn't she was the Sage of Light. And Link is the actual Sage of Time. He has some control over time, arguably more powerful than Zelda's. And Zelda is able to give him recall without needing her avatar. You might even be able to draw some connection to him sending the sword back in time. He is the one who sent it, it wasn't Zelda causing it to come back.

[@JWalker444]

I think it's just the combined powers of time and light for some reason has a vast change on its effects

[@MelissaBrownell-pz3fe]

The sword actually tells zelda that it traveled through time to get to her. Neither zelda or link sent it anywhere.

[@Velarieth]

@@MelissaBrownell-pz3fe The sword didn't cause the orb of light in the Temple of Time.

[@nehpets216]

I like the theory where after all of the other games the blue light tech happened as a more advanced civilization. The Blue light material can get information across universes and help merge the area's / timelines (see the Oracle games) so they merged the timelines weakening Demise causing the cycle to take longer giving them Thousands of years of peace per cycle instead of only a few hundred years

[@acgearsandarms1343]

The issue for me isn’t so much lore, but rather the narrative. There are a lot of questionable things done in the storytelling that leaves me questioning how sequence of events work out. They never get addressed or explained when it could have. Love the game and would play it all over again, but doesn’t mean I have to accept the flaws that show themselves in the game. The new information we have does indeed recontextualize what we knew, but that’s a different matter.

[@Alejandro_DJLM]

As much as I'd love to belive there's a timeline, I know Nintendo does not care about it, they would create a new race, new pararel worlds or say something was hidden, burried, exiled, from a distant past, in order to keep re-using the same material over and over again.

[@Tycholarfero]

​@@Alejandro_DJLMwe're having a Dragon Ball scenario play out before our eyes, I wouldn't be surprised if a Hyrule Historia 2 happens and just says this is another diverging timeline just to wipe away any inconsistency

[@squidlytv]

​@@TycholarferoThey could. Or they could just do what they did with BOTW and leave it up for interpretation

[@JWalker444]

Rauru and Sonia wedding has their arms crossing, possibly signifying their spirits actually becoming intertwined, which would be how her and Rauru's spirits are both in Rauru's arm

[@noracahill4316]

Really liked this video!! The one contradiction that I still don't get is how the sealing powers are with Raru, not a hylian. I feel like that messes up the game's connection with skyward sword since obviously skyward sword Zelda and her descendants are supposed to have those powers, yet Sonia does not. It's so weird to me honestly I don't get it. If anyone has thoughts on this lmk 😭

[@alexwalker5716]

maybe it's not the same sealing powers being used. Sonia might have had those sealing powers after all, but she never got the chance to use them, or maybe even learn that she had them at all. Rauru on the other hand (heh) might not have been "sealing" Ganondorf in the traditional sense. maybe he used his light powers to not only weaken Ganondorf's darkness powers, but to literally hold him in place underground as well. they keep saying the light banishes evil, but what if it can also restrain it? that would also explain why Rauru's hand is still attached to Gannondorf: it's holding him prisoner so he can't escape.

[@jupiterhh]

I think BotW and TotK (both past and present) are at the end of the timeline of wich the hero has been defeated, and then Hyrule was destroyed by Ganon or Demise, making so that a new Hyrule had been founded after thousands (or hundres of thousands) of years have passed, this Hyrule is the Hyrule Sonia and Rauru founded, explaining the Depths itself, where all the souls of the previous habitants of Hyrule are, and also some of the old game armors (ex: majora's mask) that can be found there. Might be an overkill thinking about the lore like this, but for me this is what makes more sense. Also great video, good script and a very good editing 😉

[@LarryDevaun]

The biggest plot hole I see is how can Sonia and rauru be related to zelda if both of them died before they could have children. I hope we see there kid in a DLC.

[@firionkaiser8291]

They definitely had a kid but we're not aiming to see every detail of the past.

[@LarryDevaun]

@@firionkaiser8291 There kid is a major plot detail we deserve to see, especially since it will most likely be the cutest video game baby ever made.

[@jonah.w7397]

It’s important to point out that when link fights phantom ganon in the castle, he says “perhaps there are limits to the knowledge imparted by the secret stones” as he’s just learning that the new sages had a different experience when obtaining their stones. He’s implying that he was given past information through his stone that the sages didn’t see. I believe he’s talking about the world when demise was around prior to SS as he then goes on to show his “world of darkness”. It’s possible that he’s even aware of the existence of demise (without his connection to him) because he takes over the mantle of demon king, as well as his appearance

[@lHikariAnkoku]

I believe there is one timeline. We start with the events of child, then adult and end with downfall. All in one line. The different Ganondorfs are just that, different Ganondorfs. The imprisoning war coming after WW where the water is back to normal makes sense with the background story of TotK. Hyrule was completely erased at end of WW, so it makes sense it is build up again when the water is gone. This also explains why we have 2 founders of Hyrule. One in OoT and one in TotK.

[@mystery5906]

ive always assumed that even the ancient history of totk, when rauru and sonia established the kingdom of hyrule, is so far removed from everything that came before it that the hyrule from past games simply fell to ruin and vanished, and a new kingdom was built long after that by rauru and sonia. the strongest evidence against that might be the common knowledge of everyone in modern hyrule that the royal family carries the blood of the goddess, but i see two easy explanations for that: one idea is that sonias family, while not having been royalty for quite some time, still passed down the knowledge that they were descended from the goddess hylia, and her children (who we dont see but must exist if zelda is her descendant) continued to carry the blood and pass on that information. (though, now that im thinking about it, is rauru actually the descendant of the goddess? he is the one with light powers; does that come from hylia? it works either way.) the second explanation is that even if the goddesses descendants forget their lineage, it can easily be rediscovered through a classic zelda adventure, where a link and a zelda find an impa who knows everything, or they talk to a sage who knows everything, or they read an ancient tome or whatever. so, to repeat what ive already said, the hyrule from the classic zelda games disappears, and in the far future, which is the distant past of totk, rauru and sonia establish a new hyrule, which then becomes modern hyrule. if theres a glaring problem with this theory, i would love to hear it! edit: another thing worth noting is that the lack of a male gerudo throughout the ~110 year history explored in botw and totk suggests that the "gerudo cycle" is not currently in effect, which can be explained thanks to totk, with the ganondorf trapped under hyrule castle taking up the "male gerudo slot". this also fits my idea of the ancient history of totk taking place after all of the classic zelda games, since there are obviously plenty of ganondorfs throughout those.

[@maiconmartins3789]

I believe that with BotW and TotK, Nintendo made indeed a retcom of the entire series... As "Creating a Champion" mentions that all events from other games faded into legend, maybe we played all these games "as the legend says" and not how they really happened in ToTk/BotW timeline... Due to the way the story works, I believe they are not in the end of a timeline nor in the beginning, but a new one... We will never know how this was made until Nintendo decides to release an updated timeline version, if they do it someday.

[@sykune]

Some you subscribe to a dragonbreak theory in which all the events of the timelines transpired but it all ended up how it is in botw and totk?

[@firionkaiser8291]

Except we know the games actually happened. Would make a lot more sense if Rauru and Sonia's era is still after every game in the timeline. At the very least it was confirmed that OoT did actually happen so I don't think there's really a massive retcon persay but more of a reset for Hyrule which sadly even now hasn't escaped Demise's clutches due to his curse.

[@zeroknight1311]

I like this theory. And the fact that we have history seemingly repeating itself in some places is interesting. Since Ganondorf in ToTk had an audience with King Rauru with good intentions that can benefit his people. And in OoT Ganondorf met with the King at the Time with intentions to make sure his people can thrive. Since we learn that in Wind Waker. So this makes the idea of there having been multiple Imprisoning Wars backed up with evidence. Of course, the contradiction of when the Rito comes into play is something that everyone is trying to resolve. Since your theory regarding them makes sense. But we need to take into account that in the Wind Waker, they're the descendants of the Zora. So either the gods decided to remake the Rito by completing changing Zora biology. Or the two races either share the same ancestor or just cross bred leading to their genetics to mix together. Leading to the dormant Rito DNA to awaken when the Gods were making the Zora into a new species.

[@squidlytv]

It could be that the Rito went extinct and then were revived. It could also be that because Hyrule is only land in an entire world. Maybe we can just assume migration

[@TrueKoalaKnight]

3:32 It says "This chronicle..." which is referring to Hyrule Historia itself. It doesn't necessarily apply to the events we experience in each game. Sometimes new games can recontextualize these events, but I feel we cannot take everything as legends because the events we play out themselves start to loose all meaning. If everything is a legend then there is no solid foundation for a timeline at all. I take things like this: if play OoT and go to Zora's Domain and save Princess Ruto who got swallowed by Lord Jabu-jabu that is a set in stone event that happened. Unless a future game specifically retcons that event directly, I consider it irrefutable history. However, when I am told the story about the Imprisoning War in the ALttP manual it is a story being told than can be subject to interpretation that I consider to be myth because it is just something we hear about and don't experience for ourselves. It even has the real world aspect of being subject to mistranslation and not necessarily good localization decisions. In the case of the memories in TotK we are getting a second hand look at what Zelda experienced in the past during the Zonai Era. Since we are not there experiencing those things ourselves they are still subject to interpretation to a small degree. This is much a much more concrete part of the story than the ALttP Imprisoning War. Given that, it's much more easy to place the TotK IW on the timeline. What we know about this new IW: - Rauru is in place as the founding King of this Hyrule. - Rauru is not Hylian. - Ganondorf already has already been born. - Ganondorf is sealed away under Hyrule Castle. So now we have to ask if there is anywhere in the old timeline these events can be placed without any contradictions having to be dealt with? The answer is a resounding "NO". What we know about the old timeline: - The Hyrule from the old timeline was founded before the events of OoT. - There are at least 2 known kings of Hyrule before the events of OoT. - Ganondorf in the form of Demon King Ganon is sealed away in the Sacred Realm which has been turned into the Dark World. I can only conclude that the TotK IW does not take place during the time span of the old timeline. There are too many contradictions to have to explain. Furthermore, the Zelda Team has been pretty clear that BotW and by extension TotK are set in the distant future after all the events of the old timeline. It simply wouldn't make sense for them to do this for the sake not being beholden to the old lore just to turn around and once again deal with the old lore. Some have argued that it's hard to swallow the idea that Hyrule was founded a second time. Why, tho? The Adult Timeline branch does it. The only difference is that we're doing it in the same place instead of in a new far away land. One of the overarching themes in The Legend of Zelda is cycles and the repetition of history. So I don't see how it would be so unbelievable for Hyrule to have been nearly wiped out and restarted with much of it's true history being forgotten over the huge spans of time we are often presented with.

[@chocolatemilkman680]

I personally think this video explains the timeline well: kzbin.info/www/bejne/eIKTmWmamtyhqLM

[@PhailRaptor]

My issue with this line of reasoning is that we don't see any real advancement of technology or society over this long but not specified period of time. People are still building small 1 or 2 room houses with stucco over brick, and the largest versions of them need additional structural supports for their chimneys. The fastest vehicle they can make is a horse drawn cart. Indoor plumbing has yet to be developed. Iron appears to still be the peak of metallurgy, but at the same time was never adapted for use in anything more complex than swords and armor, nails and horseshoes. While somehow being a united kingdom, the 5 races of the land live in almost total isolation from each other, with only the faintest amount of travel between them and absolutely no cross cultural assimilation. Despite having at least 20,000 years (remember, the Sheikah successfully beat Calamity Ganon once, he beat them the second time), the world never changed. Extrapolate that back over this long but not specified period of time that must be placed between all other games and BotW/TotK simply makes this even more apparent. There has been exactly zero advancement for the peoples of the continent of Hyrule, despite extended periods where the sky wasn't falling (literally and figuratively). Unless we're going to expand the Curse of Demise to include societal/technological stagnation of the continent. But that would be self-defeating as well, since the Sheikah were able to build all the Guardians, Divine Beasts, Skytowers, and Shrines. That all looks like high magi-tech to me, which can't be brought to fruition if you're blocked from advancement by a god curse.

[@Tylurn]

Considering that the hand collected the tears that contained Zelda's memory's it seams likely that returning those memories was a big part of what helped the supper recall work.

[@rockowlgamer631]

20:00 One issue with normal Recall it doesn't work on living creatures of any kind so that explains why Zelda doesn't just reverse Sonia's wound she gets from Ganondorf, so while I guess a super Recall could work, it still ruins it for me. Don't get me wrong I want those two to be happy and all, but if you're gonna tell me there's no cure for a disease and yet pull one out of your ass at the last second it kinda makes me pissed about it.

[@Envy_May]

in fairness the version of recall you get to use in game is not the version powered up by the secret stones. zelda uses it to travel into the past in the first place so clearly it works on people to enough of an extent to do that

[@rockowlgamer631]

@@Envy_May It amplified her time power, so she I guess accidentally whisked herself back to ancient time.

[@gosbotfire]

@@rockowlgamer631 Thats the thing that bothers me, Sonia explains that the time powers recall where the objects been and memories of it. So how exactly did Zelda travel into the past in the first place? shouldn't she have just gone upwards when falling down and not into the past?

[@rockowlgamer631]

@@gosbotfire Good point, looks like we found a loophole in Zelda's own story

[@lunarlegacy2744]

The stone was in the past at some point. She possibly accidentally sent it back where it came from and was inadvertently taken along for the ride

[@kendi4870]

Question here In the game it is told that Zelda is part of the descendants of rauru and Sonia but they never show any clue that Sonia and rauru had a child before they died so what do you think

[@mercianthane2503]

I'm just sticking that this is a new Hyrule and new Imprisoning War.

[@Terralventhe]

It's funny that people think it's a cop-out to say that certain events repeat themselves across the Zelda timeline, as if there aren't literal 'time is a flat circle' moments in human history. The past one hundred years of the modern era alone have seen people repeating the same damned mistakes and nonsense multiple times. And this is the Age of Information where people should actually know better.

[@hbic4242]

I’m thinking Sonia is Hylia maybe in her first human form and Rauru is the first hero that Zelda mentions in Skyward Sword. Just like Zelda in SS, she doesn’t know she’s a reincarnation. There is a triforce on Sonia’s wrist and sheikah eye on her hand. Also the tablets talk about the lifting of the temple of time in Sonia’s time. I know there’s a lot of what ifs to this theory, but that’s what makes it interesting.

[@daniloberserk]

This makes no sense whatsoever.

[@hbic4242]

@@daniloberserk …I’m still working on it. Lol. I’ve got the idea in my head but putting in into writing is not my strong suit, obviously. No worries though as maybe someone else can understand what I’m trying to explain and can help me to expand on it. If not, oh well. It’s just a game. 😀

[@j.scottvanlester4584]

Good point with the Ganondorf reincarnating a couple times. But I also remember Hyrule being destroyed as a kingdom a couple times. So it's not necessarily all the way back to the Skyward Sword origin.

[@IanHsieh]

If the Ganondorf in the TotK and OoT is different, then that create another contradiction. First, the Gerudo Sage vowed to Zelda so that they will assist Link to seal The Demon King Ganondorf when it happens. And then some generations later they have another male child, and then they say "Oh yeah, let's named him Ganondorf and follow him. That works out great the last time. " Even in BotW, some 10000 years later, Urbosa can still recount that legend that "Ganon used to be a Gerudo" and that she is ashamed of that. Why then will they make that same mistake a few hundred years later in OoT after the incidents of TotK? Also, Sonia act has she never heard of the name "Zelda" when Zelda first showed up (at least I have the feeling of that). So even if SS Zelda did not build the monarchy of Hyrule Kingdom back then, her name would definitely be of some great significance in the to-be-queen family members. Zelda would still be Sonia's ancestor and she doesn't even recognize that name? Even Zelda somewhat recognized Sonia and Rauru's name are the king and queen from the legendary time, Sonia doesn't recognize that this Zelda has the same name as her ancestor?

[@hokton8555]

nor do they lmpw the mastersword

[@pacosalvs13]

But when does it say that ToTK past occurs hundreds of years before OoT? lets remember that BoTW happens so far in the future that every single Zelda game becomes a myth in universe, so it could be that Hyrule was destroyed/ disbanded and then time later the Zonai come to Hyrule and refound it . Also, no one remember the hero or the princess name so why would they remember ganondorf's name?

[@AndresRestart]

I see where you are coming from. You could argue those names were simply lost to history. Or maybe Ganondorf and Zelda are just common names like Paul and Olivia are to us. The first names may not really be that big of a deal. Im also not convinced on the Sonia point, but ultimately I think its what you make of it.

[@Dd-fb2tj]

I don't think she was surprised.

[@Ryuxpale]

It's best to view certain collections of Zelda games as self-contained stories. The Zelda timeline is a contrived narrative excuse purposed for the creative freedom of story telling and referencing to lore from past games, yet simultaneously making those references within a story context that contradicts the one being borrowed from. For example: there is nothing whatsoever in OOT that indicates the creation of multiple timeline dimensions. Majora's mask and Twilight Princess are the only games that logically proceed from that game. The Wind Waker and Link to the past's stories blatantly contradict OOT's story, but the extra-canonical introduction of the timeline gives an ad hoc excuse for those narrative contradictions. It's a contrived way of being able to come up with new stories that aren't strictly bound to previously established tales. Eji Aonuma has expressed that the developers do not consider the timeline whatsoever when making games because they feel it's too restrictive when attempting to write new stories. Due to this info, again, it's best not to use the timeline as a means to argue TOTK's story contradictions. Because of the timeline concept, anyone can effectively come up with any arbitrary theory explaining away what isn't explained, which is even encouraged by Aonuma in an interview. The problem is that people want a cohesively told story accurately depicting lore from past games and timelines, yet a timeline is in of itself conceptually absurd to begin with. Just have fun with the stories that directly relate to one another.

[@lemguins7031]

You did a great job explaining where spoilers are and how to enjoy what you can. It was very considerate of you ^^

[@marktipold3747]

Nintendo does not do time lines only fans do. That is way is never makes much sense.

[@jghg25]

Absolutely true, Miyamoto and Aonuma have said it several times, it's the fans who can't seem to accept it...

[@Dd-fb2tj]

What? It's literally on the official website, never mind the encyclopedias and statements from miyamoto and and aunoma

[@nuh-uhbro765]

Yeah this is a load of crap lmao. They didn’t always care about a timeline but every single 3D Zelda game until Breath of the Wild had a very intentional place in the timeline. Majora’s Mask, Wind Waker and Twilight Princess are all direct sequels to Ocarina of Time in one way or another, and Skyward Sword goes out of its way to explain why the cycle started. The only way to think there wasn’t an intended timeline is to not play those games at all.

[@challengerjakku1943]

Except interviews all the way back to the 90s show they actually had the timeline in mind. Aonuma even explained the child and adult timelines in 2006 when TP was releasing, years before hyrule historia so you're chatting shit

[@Gamer1288]

One big hole in the Story is there was nothing stopping them from having Rauru Stun Ganondorf and have Rudania rip the Secret Stone out of his Forehead thus stripping him of most of his power allowing for the others to finish him off.

[@Moon-Vixen]

I absolutely love that people are actually trying to figure out a timeline instead of throwing their hands up and calling it a retcon. personally, I think what you mention in the beginning is right, that what they know as history is a lot like what ancient people thought of our actual history. you look at old maps and you can see how wrong they are now, but that doesn't change that that's what they thought based on the evidence they had. I think the past games are the LEGENDS of Hyrule, but are inaccurate. and Zelda witnessed some of it. I'd say SS happens (as we can see the same springs, find the same Goddess statue and some of Skyloft's architecture, and hear Fi from the master sword), and as you said, nothing says they had to start a monarchy immediately. but I also disagree, I think the other races still existed, they just weren't important to the legend and therefor are not mentioned. SS Link didn't explore all of the surface, he had a job to do, so he went where he needed to, and where he passed just happened to also have some notable Gorons around, so they are mentioned. but nothing says Zora or Rito or even Gerudo didn't exist. the Sheikah after all have to have still existed for them to exist now with much the same genetic traits, so why couldn't Gerudo? so, since we KNOW there are at least SOME races still on the surface, it'd be weird for them to just instantly start a monarchy. that feels very colonialist. but what they might do, is start a church for Hylia, and her holy bloodline. then we see Sonia is a priestess of the temple of time, dedicated to the goddess of time, Hylia. who knows how much time passed between SS Zelda and Sonia, but I'd say not very much. Sonia is likely her granddaughter. I also dislike theories that say Zonai aren't that ancient compared to SS, as all the people wore very ancient style clothing, and were likely closer to what the people of Skyloft actually wore (and putting islands in the sky to keep them safe is likely inspiration from Hylia's doing, if it worked for her it'll work again). in totk we then see two young women who are clearly Kotake and Koume, who's names are on Ganondorf's swords, who are behind him as he kneels to the king, looking suspiciously like oot. this could be a situation of OoT's true history being jumbled in time and details getting refit as other details are lost (like Rauru becoming the sage of time and his owl medallion becoming an owl form) OR it could be the origins of Kotake and Koume, who became outcasted witches who used dark magic to keep themselves alive for ages and ages, and when a new male gerudo was born, they took over as his mothers and tried the same tactic again, hoping it would work on a dumber king in a new age. we know demise said "AN incarnation of his hatred" would follow them and keep Hylia/Zelda and Link reincarnating in an endless cycle, but that isn't demise's soul, only Hylia's and Link's. Ganon/dorf is only an incarnation of his HATRED, so nothing says there can't be more than one. totk Ganondorf is simply the first, and hence his ability to come so visually close to demise's appearance. from there, pretty much everything can continue as we know it. dragon Zelda and the sky islands are all hidden in a cloud barrier that never actually fell, AND, we can even take it a step further and say all 3 timelines ether merge ala a dragonbreak, or are actually 1 timeline, just slightly different. for example, the interlopers will exist at some point and be sent to the twilight realm, meaning no matter what at some point *A* Ganondorf will get sent there and the events of TP will happen, even if it's in the "wrong timeline". the only thing I'm still confused on, is the spirit tracks, windwaker, ext games where Link and Zelda leave to start a new Hyrule in a new land. if they left, and are no longer on land under water where totk Ganondorf is sealed.....how is this in the past where they've then come back...to re-found Hyrule and in the same castle? that just doesn't make sense. my only theory is that that part is pure legend, and never actually happened. but since salt is found all over the land, a flood that covered it all feels like it has to have happened. even if the people of "modern" Hyrule are wrong about it, there is still salt everywhere, even high in the mountains, so there has to be a reason for it even if the flood of WW didn't actually happen as we think it did. as well as the hero's aspect armor. it's meant to be the hero from the tapestry, and is clearly a Zonai. the only thing I can think is this Link must be related to Mineru or Rauru, as he has the shorter ears of a Hylian. so that would likely make him a prince along with the princess Zelda of that time, but there's not enough there to really go on. it just means that the Sheikah tech is about as old as the Zonai. and this is why I think "it's just a retcon" is so damn lazy lmao

[@squidlytv]

Is it theoretically plausible that the new Hyrule founded in Spirit tracks is actually the same Hyrule. The flood was just subsiding

[@Moon-Vixen]

@@squidlytv there's clear precedent for there being different Hyrule kingdoms, but things just don't add up to me. Fi alone proves SS had to have happened and be at least some degree accurate, but there's also physical remnants of Skyloft on the surface. SS is the very start of the timeline, so we can't be in a different land while also having artifacts from the original lying around, so it's clear we're on the original land and not on whatever new land Tetra and Link find. and while you could argue that Hyrule was founded, flooded, they left, the waters receded, then Hylians returned to a completely uninhabited land to re-found Hyrule, that just doesn't make sense to me. not only did the king wish for Hyrule to remain flooded forever at the end of Wind Waker, but the outfits the ancient Hylians and Zonai wear are clearly Mayan inspired, so these are an *ancient* people. the Mayans were a stone age people, they didn't even use wheels. if we read deeply into the appearance being meaningful and not just pure aesthetic, that tells us a lot about what age Zelda is sent back to, and it's hard to think of Hylians as going from an age of coal powered trains to a stone age society upon return to the original land. sure, it's full of monsters, but that doesn't mean you lose all your technology to the point of not even having/using wheels. at best, Rauru and Sonia are still the actual first King and Queen on the original land, at some point they leave when it floods, and at some point eventually return while our current Zelda is still flying high above it, but that still doesn't make much sense. all the races had to go back to their respective locations after the flood subsided, which it would somehow do even though the wish was for "forever", and the same bloodline of Sonia and Rauru returns to the very same castle over Ganondorf's tomb? with all of the things set in place by the ancient sages and whatnot undisturbed and ready to go? while it's plausible, it doesn't really feel reasonable, or make any logical sense. at least in my mind.

[@Zethryl]

Playing through TotK I was confused how there could have been all the reincarnations of Ganon throughout the other games if Demon King Ganon was still alive while sealed away all that time but the theory that it was Demon King Ganon's influence that created the other versions explains it so well. Not only does it explain why multiple reincarnations could be alive at once, but it also explains why they were always fixated with Hyrule Castle AND why Demise always reincarnated as the same person. I would love to see Nintendo expand of this by showing us the downfall of a male Gerudo as he is slowly corrupted but the Demon King's influence (maybe a comic or something). I wonder if TotK will mark the end of the "Ganon era" for the Zelda games and if we will see Demise's reincarnation take a new form going forward.

[@ShinAkuma204]

Any theory that allows for 2 Ganondorfs to exist simultaneously (sealed under Hyrule and one running around) doesn't work. It undermines the point of the imprisoning war if other actual Ganon'dorfs can manifest. TOTK takes place, even it's ancient history, at the end of the timeline. We know that this Hyrule isn't necessarily the previous Hyrule's, nor does it need to be. Rauru simply established ***this*** Hyrule, not the concept of Hyrule.

[@Zoroark_Master]

It’s impossible for TOTK memories to happen at least before BOTW, because rito didn’t exist prior (zora evolved into rito between OOT and WW) The more likely explanation is raru's hyrule isn’t the og hyrule but one founded after the previous one faded into from most memories (so even the memories happens after all the other games) And also, Sonia is extremely likely to be a descendant of the old hyrule royal family (basically hylia descendant)

[@Jeff-tt7wj]

BoTW and ToTK were the final nail in the coffin of any consistent lore for me. It’s fun to speculate, but I just fail to see how any of this lines up with any preestablished lore. Waaaaaay too many plot holes for it to fit into any of the timelines, and I don’t have the patience or care to imagine some new timeline. Outside of a few fun little references to old games, I truly don’t think they care the way we think they do. It is what it is. I’m just going to enjoy the game for the masterpiece it is, lore aside.

[@Spamkromite]

21:51 The Recall they used was so strong it even reversed the amputation of Link and all, but he was only like that for less than a year whereas Zelda was draconified for many thousands. I still think it was a fair "power-creep", specially if they as Sages tapped into Zelda's own Time powers combined with Sonia's and amplified with the LUX of Rauru's spirit and the arm as catalyst. Yes, I believe it was fair. But now there are 2 Zeldas (?)

[@drchucknarnix7703]

The reason we can’t see the Light Dragon in BotW is because the events which led Zelda transforming into it occurred roughly 5-7 years after BotW in TotK. Once Zelda altered the course of the timeline, the dragon will have always been there, floating about the sky.

[@squidlytv]

The video explains this perfectly fine. I don't see any reason to think that Zelda's time travel split the timeline.

[@iLLiCiT_XL]

Fujibiyashi was involved in SS, BotW, and TotK. The fact that people think he would be involved in this project and completely undermine his previous work is baffling. Of course, as I’m writing this… you’re bringing it up in your video. Awesome! You just earned my sub.

[@OfficialUncleCoCo]

Big Contradiction: If the Light Dragon (Zelda) was holding onto and repairing the Master Sword for those thousands of years, how did any of the other Links use it? Were there 2 Master Swords in the world the whole time? I really like your explanation for the Light & Time power being combined to reverse Zelda back.👍

[@MelissaBrownell-pz3fe]

I would think, yes. The sword's timeline was being doubled, just like the secret stone zelda had.

[@firionkaiser8291]

Would only apply if Rauru's era is Pre OoT, but that isn't likely.

[@syetolove69]

So something to add that I feel a lot of theories that say skyward sword is before past totk missed an interesting detail. The tear memory "The Sages' Vow", Rauru and the sages are standing infront of the secret stone chamber. The one in the lost temple... the same one that has the grand mother goddess statue. This means that the zonai and Rauru and Sonia's founding predates Demise and Skyward Sword's events. I think demise is just a northern manifestation of the power leaking from Ganondorf after Rauru's death. (Notice the theme of the type of horrors that leak from ganondorf: Gloom, Malice,... Demise. They are all like active negative emotions.

[@RickyBBlessed]

Some of the inconsistencies I've noticed: At the founding of Hyrule the tale of the Zonai decending to the land and being treated as gods is presented as something that atleast happened in the near but most likely distant past. This doesnt mesh well with Skyward Sword, as the people of Skyloft were the only Sky people at the time with no mention of the Zonai but also there seems to be no relation even in appearance to the Zonai. This would mean that the founding of Hyrule would have to take place many years or even centuries after Skyward sword. This leaves a bigger question of what took them all that time to establish a kingdom and why/how did they fail? The progress and regress of the people is also suspicious as the people of skyloft were fairly advanced yet the people of hyrule seem vey primitive especially whn compared the tech of the Zonai. There is also the naming of Zelda back then but he descendants didn't carry the name over until Zelda from the past introduced them to the name which seem like a huge coincidence. Then there is the issue of Zelda being a descendant of the Zonai but having none of te physical characteristics of her Ancestors. There is more I'll add this as I recall the points I had.

[@justsomejerseydevilwithint4606]

6:44 That's a minor plothole with the Rito actually; The Rito were evolved from Zora after ganondorf drowned the kingdom, the goddesses did that to keep balance so the zora wouldn't become too powerful, with the ones that stayed aquatic losing their hands to stay humble. Thing is, Ganon drowned the KINGDOM of Hyrule, after its founding... which evolved the Rito... that were there at its founding... so... I think it's fine though with Windwaker being earlier in the timeline. Maybe the storytellers made up the story of the rito evolution to explain the Rito.

[@FeignJurai]

I've got a theory that's a bit crazy, but it fits together pretty well. First, there's two parts to consider: 1) The Tears don't tell a *continuous story,* only key moments in time. 2) Gannondorf's arrival may not have been the beginning of the war, and Gannondorf's imprisonment may not have been the end of the war. My theory is that the war against Demise was ongoing between Hylia and Demise and Gannondorf was a particularly powerful minion of Demise during that war (perhaps even greater in power temporarily), making his interactions with Zelda and Raru a historically small (but deeply personal for Zelda) chapter in a greater war. This would explain why Raru had a need for warrior allies, why they named their kingdom after the goddess, This would mean that Demise would have had knowledge of Gannondorf when casting his curse. He had an "incarnation of his hatred" very much in mind when casting the curse. Likewise, this way Hylia could have known secondhand about the Master Sword and the future existence of The Hero.

[@FeignJurai]

Alternately, Gannondorf's war on Hyrule could have been the first chapter of the Imprisoning War, which didn't simply end with his defeat. Demise could have been one of his creations who rose in power by consuming the Malice that remained from the war sometime after Zelda's sacrifice, requiring Hylia to intervene directly. In this case, the mythology of Demise as a primordial god was just the people of Skyloft buying his hype and assuming the Imprisioning War was entirely against him.

[@The_Official_Optimar]

It still doesn’t make sense as to why there is little to no references to the great calamity besides Mipha’s statue and that one little grave by castle town.

[@AndresRestart]

They teach a whole class about the Calamity in Hateno, and the tapestry of the Calamity is in Paya's house in kakariko.

[@itsJoshW]

There's a lot about the calamity. The problem is that there's little to no reference about "skyward swords lore" of the calamity. As Andre points out, there's a even a nice little side quest about the Calamity; however the depiction is evident when you read between the lines: The children do not believe it actually is real, and claims even if they showed a picture, who is to say it's accurate unless you were there. Link goes through, shows a picture, the kids then believe it to be true. You can also obtain the Ancient Hero Aspect armor, wherein has a mix between a Gerudo and a Zonai, which isn't even accurate to Rauru's arm. Definitively noting that the "calamity" was entirely inaccurate, and is likely due to the "word of mouth" story that most of the side quests and side adventures project. Hell, almost everyone of the newspaper side adventures are about that too, along with the mayoral campaign depicting the difference between "classic" and "modern", and the winner is the classic with just utilizing aspects of the modern method. At first glance, you'd assume it has to do with "open world". But then beyond surface level, it's evident that they clearly meant the story.

[@Victor-dm4qv]

In the Era of the Wild, there are a decent amount of evidence for Skyward Sword. The goddess statues, the shrines and the Forgotten Temple. Not seeing the Light Dragon was understandable, as Skyward Sword established that there is a sky barrier that hides the sky islands. And yet, I do feel that they missed a few golden opportunities to further honor Skyward Sword up to Ocarina of Time. However, because they hyper focused on the Zonai, very little was done to tell us about the Hylians, other races and the whole of Hyrule itself. When we could have gotten ruins of places we knew from past Zelda games, we got Zonai ruins instead and the generic ruins from the Calamity. Imagine that when we went up into the sky islands, we found a few particular sky islands. One that had the exact layout of Skyloft with some ruined buildings that looked similar to the very same ones we explored in Skywayrd Sword. One sky island could've had a giant petrified pumpkin with some stairs that lead up to it and with a field of pumpkins growing behind it. Imagine there being a large protective dome of clouds that hid an sky islands, one with a puzzle island to attach a bridge to another sky island with a tower, which has a giant goddess statue. People that have played Skyward Sword finding these places would have gone crazy. Of course, you could add some of the dungeons from Skyward Sword as ruins as well, like the Ancient Cistern and the Fire Santuary. Personally, I would have preferred finding ancient ruins that were modeled after and were clearly dungeons from Ocarina of Time. I would have overdosed from pure joy at finding all the temples, as well as well as other Ocarina Locations, like the Kokiri Forest, Kakariko Village by Death Mountain, the cave versions of Goron City and Zora's Domain and Gerudo Valley. I would have so deeply loved all of that!

[@Luxembourgish]

If this is the first Ganondorf, that would be a MASSIVE retcon. Ganondorf in Ocarina is well established as the first. To change that, is a retcon. Especially since it would severely downgrade Ocairna Ganondorf' to an extremely lame puppet of the corpse.

[@lenorrismiller563]

I think that there is only ever one ganondorf that represents demise's curse. And he is the ganondorf/ganon that we see in the games including tears. The ganondorf in 4 swords is a reincarnation of ganondorf, but not Demise's curse.

[@itsJoshW]

That actually wouldn't be. And the comment above is a representation of the first legitimate retcon of Ganondorf -- demise. This is a correction to that retcon. Let me explain? In Skyward Sword, "Demise" existed as an unnamed evil entity that considered themselves a distinguished "race" of demons, a "tribe". Whom the existence of "The one of the end" (Demise) is specifically, in the actual story of the game, to have a great hate of the Goddess (that's the character arc, period). The "Demon Tribe" of Skyward Sword existed in a Kingdom on the surface that had been long 'lost to a name' (In the game, we're provided the Hylian Shield from the Kingdom of Hyrule, an "Ancient land that was long forgotten" (Despite claiming it never existed before skyward sword later on lmao). Simply put, Demise was the actual "retcon" of Ganondorf -- And the symbolism of "the curse" was to retcon the notion of the "boring not cool idea of a villain that isn't bad ass" (capcom writer being a capcom writer). The original entries, such as Ocarina of Time, depicted Ganondorf Dragmire as not bound "to a curse to hurt zelda and link for all eternity", but literally was a thief apart of the tribe of Gerudo's, and directly considered a "King" of that tribe due to a curse on the Gerudo's that bound a male to be born every 100+ years. TOTK goes to correct both of these faults. TOTK's Past rectifies how the male Gerudo curse exists, by simplifying the enclosure of the "first" Ganondorf (Notice the two standing next to him as he kneels; Twinrova as young adults) and abiding these two to name a Gerudo male "Ganondorf Dragmire", whom would exist during Ocarina of Time. In TOTK's Past, they rectify "demise", the "demon apart of the demon tribe with no name, known as one of the end, the bringer of demise, the demon king" by accordingly naming the individual Ganondorf. Additionally, they make him Gerudo, and they premise in every present day literature and side quest in TOTK (present) that there is no mention of a "Ganondorf" but only a mention of a "Demon King" and "no name affiliation" is actually a related discussion there. The Demon King is only known as that name, a bringer of demise. They rectify the last retcon of Skyward Sword by removing the origin of the master sword, placing it back on the sages (they do not show this English lmao) and they also distinguish that the "seal" on the demon king was always completed by Rauru -- showing the Ancient Hero Aspect as an indiivdual that does not have Rauru's arms, has green skin and slicked back red hair with a widows peak, and a hefty distinction of "This myth was based on the original legend, but was transformed so far from the truth in time, that no one accounted for the real events of history". Simply being: The actual history and "lore" from Skyward Sword shouldn't be considered canon -- and I don't think Nintendo views it as either, they just simply haven't said it in English. The Imprisoning War took place before Skyward Sword -- note the Forgotten Temple is also the chamber where the sages meet. Additionally, there is no "Hylia" statue, there is no mention of "Hylia", the name "Zelda" is new, and Sonia alludes to Zelda owning the full Triforce, not that she has a "common ancestor of the goddess" -- but that they share the blood: Rauru + Sonia's descendant. Let's also top this off by saying that Skyward Sword told us an "Imprisoning war", wherein they refer to it as an "ancient battle to imprison the one of the end"; Despite calling it a war, a war is literally just a battle. The difference was that within Skyward Sword, they contradict this by stating that the Goddess couldn't seal the demon, but a mere Hylian (something the Goddess had to turn into and gave her up her god-hood to do) could. Let's also not talk about the clear retcon of the golden goddesses in Skyward Sword, which also totally weren't the servents of Hylia, named totally not the same names as them whom apparently getting blessings from them turned the Goddess Sword into the Master Sword. We should also not discuss that in TOTK, the Goddess Statues are controlled by the Bargainer statues, which giving them scales of the dragons provides you the "White Sword of the Sky", and in awakening all bargainer statues in corresponding Wellspings (same location as the sacred springs above) provides you the Tunic of Memories...depicting that Zelda prayed to the Goddess Statues to create your tunic in TOTK -- which the bargainer statues simply obtained and replaced with a different one. Not sinister enough yet? let's talk about how the Bargainer statues are actual God's of the Zelda series, yet they are also entities of the Twilight Realm, which is what the depths are depicted as in the Piggyback book; A gateway to this separate world, which the chasms are described as. And the above the sky area was considered the "sacred realm" also in classic lore. All in all -- it's not a massive retcon. It's only a retcon to the game that tried (and succeeded) at retconining the classic zelda lores, depicting to people online that "Nintendo never cared about story until skyward sword", despite that every previous zelda game was nothing but story...and Nintendo literally created timelines setup as prequels or sequels per each game, and told you in the epilogue of each game where the game took place.