Angle vs Acro Tiny Whoops In 2023

[@ProjectMockingbird]

I think back to the last Tiny Whoop Invitational course and I know we had some of the best acro pilots in the world at the time there, and at least on that course, Angle mode was faster even for those guys. Now performance of whoop hardware has increased, but that Tiny Whoop course was SO tight and SO technical that I wonder if Angle would still win. A lot of the courses I've seen recently like Whooptopia do feel more like a condensed 5 inch course instead of the crazy tight courses that used to be the norm for whoops. But in the end, they are all fun to watch and the talent in all the big races is CRAZY good.

[@scu-dub]

Ok I'm hooked 😁 I'm still a newb but addicted to fpv love the hobby I'm not even close to being able to spank a whoop like this lol this is very informative and just as entertaining I'm officially a sub😁🤌🏽✌🏽

[@tylersmith3664]

Drl starts in March

[@scu-dub]

@tyler smith love watching drl 👍🏽

[@AltmuehlDrone]

I saw your old video way back when i wasn't sure whether to use project mockingbird stuff. And angle mode really improved my laptimes and made my flying more consistant - all depending on the track. Great flying!! :)

[@FastSloW-qt8xf]

It definitly depends on the quad, and the course. I will keep both on a switch

[@lightsailfpv]

awesome video buddy! not much content like this out there so as a up and coming tinywhoop racer, this is highly appreciated!

[@seandolan]

Great vid man 😎✌❤ it's come a long way

[@Originaljonny2bad]

i remember your first vid, this is awesome great vid

[@Woodyyes--]

Very nice video. And si many giod infos! Thx !!!

[@XMuscles]

What's the weight difference between quads?

[@scottmilano2940]

Are the quads stock? Or are you running higher KV motors? I have been flying higher KV 0702 motors on biblades and having a blast.

[@JohnEFly]

Both of these quads are "stock". The Meteor65 is 100% stock and the Mobula6 HDZero had BlueJay flashed to the ESC, the frame swapped for a Meteor65 frame and the connector swapped to BT2.0 and the props changed to Gemfan 3-blade props.

[@NoSkillSammy]

dope track :)

[@kautionfpv]

What kind of tubing are you using for the gates?? Seem to glow better than just PVC??

[@ChainsawFPV]

PEX tubing.

[@kautionfpv]

@@ChainsawFPV Ive never seen PEX in white, Ive been wanting exactly this. All the PEX fittings Ive seen are dark though, these also look white?

[@ChainsawFPV]

@@kautionfpv They have it on Amazon if you do not have locally.

[@JohnEFly]

For the fittings I used custom TPU printed parts that I designed and printed. Some of the connectors are write TPU, some are orange. I had one using PEX fittings, but it didn't hold well enough for my needs. The real key for the PEX gates was to find 10 foot straight pieces. A lot of pex is in a roll, and I was never able to get that stuff straight enough for square gates, so that's when you see round gates.

[@kautionfpv]

@@JohnEFly That is awsome!! Thank you so much. Would you be willing to share the model files for the connectors?

[@2_hottieScotty]

🙋🏼‍♂️🙋🏼‍♂️🙋🏼‍♂️🙋🏼‍♂️ hope to see more from you again soon, man!!!

[@AGILISFPV]

1:33 Rab flies acro. Not angle***

[@JohnEFly]

I thought he still flew both? I remember he started flying Acro last year, but I saw him posting more angle mode flights later. Perhaps I had bad info. thanks

[@TheVeganarchism]

Angle mode is so boring though. I learned acro with a whoop before flying bigger quads - really fun and a safe way to learn!

[@wyatthumphreys]

Wow the world of whoops is so deceivingly complicated! I fly primarily 5 inch freestyle but this has me so excited to go small for once!!

[@RyanQuellet]

I've been flying acro indoors a lot more. There is definitely more control in corners, but mistakes are more punishing. Still looking for the perfect 65mm hdzero whoop build too. I think you can get the weight down to 23g and still be durable

[@JohnEFly]

Mistakes are more punishing in some ways, but less punishing in others. For example, when I hit a gate hard in angle mode the accelerometer goes nuts, and I need to land, disarm and then re-arm. That takes a lot of time. With acro I just keep flying and then get back to the track. For HDZero I have different ideas to try to improve things more... we'll have to see how it works out...

[@thirtythreeeyes8624]

The betafpv elrs board has a lite version they sell on their website that might be the best fc.

[@dirtymcstinky1656]

Me too. Been having more success using the pro frame however. Got weight down to 22.5g and kept the default canopy for vtx protection.

[@urodinofpv3313]

Really good content. Thanks for sharing your thought process and data. I've been contemplating changing to acro and your data/testing style was great. Also, it's very obvious the lighter the quad weight the better it flies in general and may get a little more flight time especially if the track is longer or battery characteristics

[@kris-kb4vf]

leaving aside freestyle drones from 3.5 inches and up, if we want to get the maximum speed on small drones some will be very fast in acro, but then when you switch to Angle they become lightning, for others in Angle they seem nailed and in Acro they become splinters, unfortunately a lot but a lot depends on the Pid Setup, more than on the hardware such as frame, motors propellers, the other thing is that some Gyro on some FC are more reactive than others .. but it becomes too long a discussion, trying it first hand and with what you have in hand is the best experience🙃

[@Sugar_K]

we have a big overhaul to angle mode coming... it could swing things back the other way 🤔

[@JohnEFly]

I'll have to do a follow up test with it and see what happens...

[@ProjectMockingbird]

technically, Emuflight and Quicksilver have the most modern angle mode over Betaflight. Emuflight has code that reduces gimbal lock so you can run max angle up to 90 degrees and it won't freak out. BUT, in the right hands and on the right track acro can be even smoother. The new stuff that might make it into BF (yaw around gravity vector) is already core to QS and an option (cinematic yaw) in Emu will help BF some, but if I were to race in angle mode seriously I would be doing it in QS (for ELRS) first and then Emu for FrSky (for dual axis steering and the new gimbal lock code). :) It is great news that BF is exploring enhancing Angle Mode.

[@thefreezezone4583]

I havent flown since 2014, most was still flying brushed but brushless was getting pretty hot, FPV was still fairly new...fastforward to today. A friend sent me a little shit drone, ya know the type, for beginers not knowing I use to be a pretty good pilot on the sticks. Through lots of research and ton of videos I see everyone is acro over angle, but what happened to those with real skills and fly in 3d mode? I was shocked to hear people claim they are flying inverted in acro, and after watching many videos I have come to the conclusion that most people just do not know what it means to really fly inverted. So this is what I am going to be doing, bringing back real 3D acrobat flying just to show those new to quad flying what real inverted flight...I cant wait to blow some minds at the top of a power loop I set at the top literally upside down and hovering at the top of the loop, then finish it after a slight midloop hover...so much more you can do in air with 3D over acro......FYI, I am just south of Detroit, small town on the river, if you know then you know....maybe see ya out and about

[@BikeGuyFPV]

12:19 the weight and motor KV will become more apparent when on a track with longer lead ups to gates. The whoops when heavy and underpowered with low KV motors will prop wash out no matter how much you pre-turn or throttle you give to the whoop before entering a gate. This became very apparent for me in Sacramento over the weekend where I had to basically treat it like a DRL R4/SL spec quad; momentum racing versus point-and-shoot racing flying at close to full throttle. But after this event I was already planning on building new whoops that were going to be lighter and way higher KV motors too.

[@carbonEYE007]

What are you still using beta flight? Quicksilver whoops it’s ass no pun intended

[@BobBobsta]

I’m a little late but I’d like to know which battery’s you are flying?

[@Paperbutton9]

Angle mode is good for unskilled pilots who dont want to practice

[@RixFPV]

I did not know anyone raced in anything but acro. Almost feels like cheating :P

[@DronzenFPV]

Time to put the work in......Acro makes sense with todays whoops

[@testpilotian3188]

I race with a small group of friends and I’m the only one flying acro, when I can finish a race and don’t crash, I win every race, it’s so much faster especially on tracks that require freestyle moves.

[@ChainsawFPV]

Perfectly said. Same here. When I am not bouncing off stuff, and finish, it is a decent amount faster then the rest. Acro people are in front every time.

[@rgglenn150]

whats your camera angle?

[@MedienGulli]

that track slapped harder than my dad

[@gabormihaly667]

this is an accelerated trick recording

[@Paperbutton9]

omg music so cringe

[@ferocious_r]

Why are you slower with HDZero? Isn't it supposed to have better latency than analog?

[@JohnEFly]

The HDZero quad weighed considerably more than the analog quad. The latency was irrelevant between the two. Weight makes a huge difference in performance.

[@ferocious_r]

@@JohnEFly thanks, makes sense. Totally in awe of people flying these courses at the speeds you do. Tried in Velocidrone and happy if I can complete one at all :)

[@ChainsawFPV]

Acro for life! And I love a high cam angle on my whoop just like a 5 inch. Keeps my muscle memory the same when switching back and forth between different size quads. I like the Mob 6 (ELRS) guts in the Meteor 65 frame with 25K motors. The Mob frames suck. Lol Some tuning and they are a great flying whoop.

[@swimbeyonder]

what difference is there between acro and angle mode?

[@waverazor]

acro doesnt use an acelorometer to balance the drones roll and yaw into a neutral position. roll and yaw are the right stick functions when you use angle the drone is always in a neutral position, so you always have to hold the right stick upwards for the drone to move forward. where as in acro mode the drone just stays in the roll or yaw position you move it in. so you have to just tap the right stick up to move forward and stay moving forward and pull the yaw back to slow down

[@KeleFPV]

Great content! Can't wait to see you at the museum.

[@JohnEFly]

Thanks for the support Kele! Look forward to seeing you down in Dayton

[@Vousie]

Looking at that video for the US Airforce Museum race, I think that's where you might actually be faster with the HDZero quad, simply because the analog is so sketchy that you see the gates pretty late.

[@BIRDYFPV130]

Awesome

[@tdcrz]

Didn't Angle mode about to get a pretty good update in betaflight 4.4? Chris Rosser did a video on it not too long ago. Curious to see if that changes anything.

[@JohnEFly]

I thought that change didn't wind up making it into 4.4? Regardless, yes I have seen his video, but I actually think that may be a net negative for me for a bit. In angle mode I have learned to fly a certain way with yaw (it is a lot of roll and yaw mixing similar to acro) and switching the meaning of yaw to be based on the position of the flight controller actually really concerns me and I worry it may confuse my control. But at some point I'll just have to try it and see I guess. I did use to run Race mode on brushed quads a while back, and I really liked that. Where pitch was angle mode, but roll and yaw were rate mode. It actually felt really similar to angle mode and it was easy to switch back and forth.

[@cccagley5276]

That Chris Rosser change will be good for Angle mode, but unfortunately it didn't make it into BF4.4.

[@reezlaw]

I remember when I switched for the first time from angle to acro with my very first brushed micro I thought "damn! this is easier!" I didn't expect that. I realised how angle was constantly fighting my attitude and hence it made for a bumpy ride. It's much easier to be smooth and "flowy" in acro. Please note that I don't do racing though...

[@cccagley5276]

I'm surprised your two whoops are those heavy stock ones or maybe that was the point. I assume you have a light, hand-built one you fly in races.

[@JohnEFly]

Honestly, I haven't flown a whoop in 3 years. The last time I flew a whoop was at the 2020 USAF Museum race. I still had that whoop, and went to fly it, but it's a Spektrum whoop and I haven't used Spektrum in 3 years. I decided to try different whoops. I wanted an HDZero whoop, so I figured I would pick up the Mobula6. I wanted to see what the new Meteor65 was like since my old Spektrum whoop started it's life as a Meteor65. I also ordered parts for a custom whoop to compare a custom light whoop to ready to fly whoops, but I figured that could be for a future video. At this point I have been flying whoops again for one week. Which made me interested to see if with new whoops if acro would make more sense or angle, so I figured I would make a video of my findings.

[@bradleybeaudry8935]

@@JohnEFly So that's what you have been doing for three years, building LED gates. Quite an upgrade from the PVC and shelving gates in the last video. The new track looks awesome.

[@JohnEFly]

@@bradleybeaudry8935 haha, yeah I really love flying these gates! I actually built the gates 3 years ago, but just broke them out again. If you watch the Meteor65 review I did you'll recognize the same gates :)

[@nadiyatalicska655]

❣️ promo sm

[@davidanderson6222]

For years I thought angle mode was the sht, but when I finally mastered acro, no going back. The only time I use acro, is when I test my quads after a repair. Whoops these days can handle acro with ease! It’s all good. Lol

[@themadhatter196]

Acro gang

[@TommyGFPV]

Great testing and information, that was awesome. I've been trying to pick back up on whooping and I've been flying acro and also find it more fun as well.

[@bay3287]

i noticed u said u had updated your esc firmware in the begging of the video .i was having trouble with one of my fcs ands its escs and wondering if u had or knew a video to help out

[@FpvSage]

I just stick to acro. Want to keep my muscle memory consistent. A few times I accidentally switched to angle and it felt like the radio input was laggy. I did notice I can orbit way easier in angle.

[@ferocious_r]

In longrange you want angle on a switch in case you lose video and don't want to RTH bail out

[@franciscohompler2773]

sorry to say but then you need to practice orbiting. For me orbiting isnt easier in angel mode

[@FpvSage]

@@franciscohompler2773​​⁠😂 I can orbit left and right on acro just fine. I was actually referring to when I orbit myself on my weak side. But yeah practice practice

[@FpvSage]

@@ferocious_rinteresting I haven’t gotten into long range but this is good to know. Let’s not anger the acro gods

[@FPVSkittles]

Sure it been said but Rab flys acro

[@glitchunicorn]

nice! It looked like you were getting tighter turns with Acro

[@derecktaitt8457]

Your pilot skills are sick i wish I could fly like you ❤

[@ChrisHarmon1]

Chris Rosser recently made some adjustments to angle mode I believe that helped speed it up vs acro. I really noticed the difference between the two modes in the little experience I have with tiny whoop simulator. Perhaps serious whoop racers use a firmware that already has these fixes and I'm just out of the loop(never was in).

[@ProjectMockingbird]

yeah, Emuflight and Quicksilver have MUCH more advanced Angle modes.

[@beeradfpv]

Ever try quicksilver? its "racemode" is angle on roll only if i remember right. i have it loaded and flew once then its been sitting unfortunately

[@JohnEFly]

I've never flown quicksilver, but back in the brushed frame I used to fly Silverware which also had race mode where angle was only on roll and pitch and yaw were rate mode. I liked it a lot. It flew a lot like angle mode but it was easier to keep a faster rate of speed. I haven't tried something similar after going to brushless...

[@kurtzFPV]

Aside from the flying skills, I don't see how racers remember the courses and which side you are entering gates.

[@cccagley5276]

Exactly my thought each time I see a quad race. It all comes down to practice and excellent spatial awareness. I just fly for fun.

[@JoanMendoza]

That was a great analysis, thanks for sharing!

[@billmcdonald4335]

What firmware? Chris Rosser and ctsnooze have done some serious work on Betaflight Angle mode. Also, I've been using Bluejay 0.19 which flies much better on my rig. I fly a chonky 2S, 2-inch whoop, exclusively in Angle mode, and I can tell you the latest firmware changed how my stuff handles. I don't race, but I do tight flying with lots of tiny gaps. Propwash is almost non-existent, and the thing seems like it's reading my mind.

[@JohnEFly]

this was using bluejay 0.19 and betaflight 4.3.

[@billmcdonald4335]

@@JohnEFly 4.4 on its own is different, but Rosser & snooze's work puts Angle in another league. I suggest you look into it. Might be useful for some course layouts, particularly the tight, twisty ones. I'll bet you'll wring more out of that firmware than I did. Best o' luck and happy flyin'!

[@pbshooter100]

So can you provide some spec data? What version of BF were you using and what were your rates and PID settings for both your Angle mode and Acro mode flights.

[@JohnEFly]

I personally don't worry about specific settings, I just care if it flies well. One quad was 4.3 and the other was 4.2. These were stock out of the box, no pid changes or version changes. For Rates I fly 75 max angle in angle mode with 2.05/.15 on yaw and for acro mode I run .8/.9 on pitch and roll and 1.05/.65 on yaw.

[@pbshooter100]

@@JohnEFly Thank you for the quick reply. Keep up the good work

[@8BiT_fpv]

👽👾🌏

[@bikerxxuk]

That could have been a 4 minute video!

[@p4nd439]

Nice testing! But your racing line is too much point & shoot. You can gain more lap time by preturning and taking some perfect preturning paths that can't be done in angle mode.

[@ChrisHarmon1]

I also wanted to mention the meteor c03 camera, anyone else think it's better then the nano 3 from runcam? I haven't tried one but they look better then my nano 3s yet I don't see anyone talking about them.

[@JohnEFly]

YES!!! The camera is gorgeous. I had an old nano 3 in my older whoop and it's brutal in comparison. I'm also liking the C03 much more than the Tiny Whoop Pinch so far...

[@Shadrach.]

Agreed, brilliant camera the C03

[@TedJones-ye1ud]

Always acro

[@2_hottieScotty]

🤩🤩🤩🤩🤩🤩👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻 love your stuff, man!!! 🙋🏼‍♂️🙋🏼‍♂️👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻