Do Reptiles Have Feelings?

[@AnimalsatHomePodcast]

*Thank you for watching the episode! **4:24** should I do it?? If you'd like to support the production of the podcast, consider joining us over on Patreon!* www.patreon.com/animalsathome

[@UpperAquatics]

As my second grade teacher would say.. "Do what you think is best." ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[@Jason-fp7vi]

Dillon you made a great point around 59:20 saying people don't want to believe reptiles are smart because it brings up the ethical problem of keeping 200 snakes in tubs. This is something I'm not a fan of in the hobby, not just racks and tubs, but amassing humongous at home collections. Ricky works at a location with a lot of herps, but I'd say that is serving a greater purpose (education), and he presumably works full time to keep them. So that's different But when I see video thumbnails about "unboxing my 100th reptile", or news clips about people with 50+ reptiles in the house, it irks me a bit. Can you imagine if someone said "unboxing my 100th puppy"? To me it just projects this vibe that reptiles are easy to take care of, or don't require effort... Getting a new reptile becomes an impulse buy because there's no consideration of what they actually need to thrive. They just need a 10 gallon and a red bulb right??? Right?? (no.)

[@CatharticOutlet]

yes! this is something I've also noticed. People will bend over backwards to justify keeping massive collections in sub par conditions by citing pseudoscientific nonsense about how it's natural and meets the animals needs, even if the science indicates that that is very much not the case. They will believe anything if it means they don't have to think critically about their standards. Personally, I am more bothered by the big-name breeders and reptile facilities than random hobbyists with larger collections, because the former have a lot of influence on the hobby, and promote hoarding pets are clearly not invested in animal welfare at all. And then their fans/followers will often imitate and defend their bad practices...

[@Jason-fp7vi]

@@CatharticOutlet well said

[@AnimalsatHomePodcast]

Yes, exactly! we have an "oversized collection" issue in our hobby. Of course I know a few incredible keepers with massive collections but that is VERY rare and they would be the first to not recommend having large collections.

[@kated3165]

Our blue tongue skink taught us that he is capable of ''being pissed'' at someone. I accidentally sent him tumbling to the floor once, after pulling a blanket off our bed without suspecting he was hiding in it. His immediate reaction was to tongue flash and huff like crazy. I placed him back in his tank and for half the day he would charge at me through the glass whenever I even got close to the tank (never had done that before). At this point I'm thinking ''I've hurt/scared him and so he now sees me as a threat. I'll need to work to gain his trust again...''. Later that same day? He is scratching his tank door like he does when he wants out. I'm the only way he can be let out, and he knows this. I was wary that he would maul my hand, but I let him out like usual. I was surprised to see him behaving like a perfect calm and docile little lizard as I picked him up and went to place him on the floor. Not long after he was back at hissing angrily and threatening me the moment I would get anywhere close to him! He was able to willingly suppress his aggression towards me when he realized he needed me to get out of his tank... and then picked up right back to it once he had what he wanted and no longer needed me! At the end of the day he was fully back to behaving his old tame normal self towards me... so thankfully skinks apparently don't hold grudges for as long as mammals do! A similar incident also once happened with my bf. Later that very same day I was holding and petting the skink, who was behaving like a complete docile potato in my arms. My bf then approaches to talk to me and goes to also pet the skink... and immediately was met with an angry-looking side-eye and a VERY loud and pissed (unusual for that skink) series of hisses and huffing.

[@AnimalsatHomePodcast]

Very interesting! Thanks for sharing and watching the episode!

[@stefanostokatlidis4861]

Sadly, there was a hiatus in my following of the channel, because the interviews are too long and I don’t always have the time. This took two days to complete for example. Very nice new input. I also believe about leopard geckos, ball pythons and other species that come from non western countries, that we don’t know so much about them because of those countries being non friendly to tourism. People know much more about corn snakes for example just because they come from the US. There are a few studies on leopard geckos in the wild and I remember that they were found to be much more social than most people think.

[@UpperAquatics]

As a fish keeper with 1 reptile.. this information is amazing. Not only can I apply the things I learn to my bearded anole, I can use it to improve the lives of my fish. Keep an open mind and you'd be amazed at what you learn.

[@AnimalsatHomePodcast]

Awesome, so happy to hear that! Thank you for watching the episode

[@CatharticOutlet]

Another great video! Thanks for introducing us to HerpHQ! It's nice to hear people calling out the abysmal standards of the reptile keeping hobby... As someone who only started keeping snakes a bit more than a year ago I was absolutely astounded by the normalisation of sub-par practices compared to other communities such as fish keeping. Not only is misinformation abundant online in care guides and forums, irresponsible keeping practices are also pushed by many big-name breeders and facilities, and no one seems to want to call them out. On top of that, the general public seems even less aware of basic animal welfare than these problematic facilities. Based on my experience adopting snakes, many keepers don't even bother to provide the bare minimum suggested by the breeders and will keep snakes in appalling conditions without proper heating and hides and in terrariums that are far too small.

[@AnimalsatHomePodcast]

Thank you for watching and adding your thoughts to the discussion! :)

[@stefanostokatlidis4861]

Abysmal is too strong of a word.

[@CricketsMa]

Thank you, Ricky and Dillon, for a very uplifting episode. It touches my heart to know so many good people are doing such wonderful work for advancing reptile care.

[@AnimalsatHomePodcast]

Thank you so much for watching, Suzanne!

[@lsuzicosbw644]

I just love this podcast. I adopted my first ball python today. A beautiful boy! I’m obsessed with learning about proper husbandry and found this fascinating. Thank you! And congrats on the new baby!

[@AnimalsatHomePodcast]

Thank you very much! I am glad you are enjoying the show!

[@rickcroney1286]

Thank you Dillon and Ricky, this was a very interesting conversation about advancing our care and the hobby in general. It is really unfortunate that searches for information always result in just giving the popular or most viewed options. I always try to find the most up-to-date/fact based information and to point people in the direction of those sources. Hopefully with time the good sources also be come the mainstream sources!

[@AnimalsatHomePodcast]

Thanks for watching, Rick! Yes, I am hoping for the same thing!

[@caitwn8548]

Just joined your Patreon and should have done it sooner. This is another excellent video, and Ricky's earlier video on reptile cognition and intelligence is one of the best I have seen on the topic. When you talked about looking at the enclosures you originally thought were nice, and now seeing just boxes and thinking about how you can improve - I felt that all the way down to my soul. Thank you.

[@AnimalsatHomePodcast]

Thank you for signing up for the Patreon, Caitlin! I really appreciate the support 😁 Really glad you enjoyed this episode as well!

[@Lizardliker]

Another Great video Dillon. Really enjoyed the Conference and looking forward to Ricky's next video. Last two are very good.

[@AnimalsatHomePodcast]

Thanks, Graham! Glad you were able to go to the conference, sounds like it was an amazing time

[@LetsTalkHerps]

Ricky makes fantastic videos. Great hearing him on the podcast!

[@AnimalsatHomePodcast]

Thanks for listening, Steven!

[@fluffbungle6533]

i really hope the conference gets some kind of remote access. i would happily pay the ticket price to watch those talks, either live or after the fact. where else can you get that calibre of talks in one spot. i live not far away but i have my own stuff which gets in the way of things like that, and its gutting to have to miss out. i'm also glad the cold came up. i feel like reptile (at least temperate ones) often get kept too hot. i made my corn snake a viv that had big controllable vents in. specifically so that i could dump the heat out in the summer and cool down the one side. i seem him going back and forth often. i also noticed him engaging in basking behaviour a lot more, and i think in a more natural way. he goes and warms up, goes off exploring and after a while goes back to top up. not saying they need to be cool but i feel like provision of cool should be accounted for as much as heat.

[@AnimalsatHomePodcast]

Yes, exactly! I think most of us would be willing to pay to watch recordings of the conference. The more people who pay to watch, the bigger and better the conference will get!

[@LonghornInOmaha]

Great episode, Dillon! Truly a thought provoking show. Especially intrigued by the discussion on brain development of reptiles growing up in tub situations.

[@AnimalsatHomePodcast]

Thanks, Cole! Yes, the plasticity section was very interesting!

[@dragonbeak]

Huh... is that why my ball pythons always knock down their unattached branches? I noticed that they do always seem to move the branches in the same way, to sorta extend or cover the holes of their hides. But I always considered it a happy coincidence. It hadn't occurred to me it was purposeful! (Since I always move the branches back higher believing that this allows for more fun climbing spaces).

[@AnimalsatHomePodcast]

That is very very interesting! It’s certainly possible!

[@oxyranus9355]

Nice one, i like listening to these interesting debates on reptile care and enrichment and on how they actually live in the wild. Keep up the good work.

[@AnimalsatHomePodcast]

Glad you’re enjoying them, thank you very much for watching!

[@melindamcmahon9711]

I've had Ehre (BP) for two years. Does he cry when he's sad. No. Does he laugh when someone tells a joke. No. Is he waiting for me when he knows I'm late. Yes. Is he just waiting for food. No. Does he give kisses when asked...(and thinks it's a game). Yes. I raised Ehre as a pet. He was my first snake. I did not have any snake experience, but read all the educational books and watched all the YT videos, and knew I would one day own one. I just didn't know that I should have done this a long time ago. I learned with Ehre and what Ehre liked. He taught me. Everyone adores this snake, and Ehre enjoys people. But I think they learn to feel safe, and no harm will come their way...just like any other pet.

[@AnimalsatHomePodcast]

Here sounds like an awesome snake!

[@harrynewton9045]

Wonderful discussion, thought provoking as always. Thank you Ricky and Dillon!

[@AnimalsatHomePodcast]

Thank you, Harry!

[@patrick87100]

As always, thanks for another informative chat. Today I sat in front of my PNGFD enclosure & sorted roaches while this played. keep it up!!

[@AnimalsatHomePodcast]

Thank you very much for watching!

[@Saphire023]

I live in New Mexico, I wish I had known about that conference when it came around!

[@AnimalsatHomePodcast]

Ah dang! That’s too bad. Hopefully there will be another one there at some point in the future 🙂

[@michellepetersen6597]

My uromastyx is super cool. My husband and I went away for a week on our honeymoon and he actually missed me. We got home late at night and his viv lights had already been off for a while but he heard us in the kitchen and scuttled out to greet us! He absolutely never wakes up or comes out of his hide when his lights are off. I was very surprised and happy to see a positive emotional response to my presence. I’ve been working with him for a while on trust building and I think it’s working! I will add, we had a pet sitter while we were gone so he had access to fresh salad every day so it definitely wasn’t a hunger response!

[@gpn962]

Wow, I'm new to snake keeping (as of yesterday) and am so glad I came across this. Thanks!

[@AnimalsatHomePodcast]

Welcome to both the channel and herpetoculture! There are a TON of valuable episodes that you will enjoy as a new keeper. Happy listening/watching! All the episodes are also available on any podcasting app i.e. you can listen while you drive, do chores, etc.

[@gpn962]

@@AnimalsatHomePodcast Thanks! I've just binge watched a few haha. The one with Dr Baines was especially interesting. You really don't get this kind of info on regular care sheets online. Thanks again and all best!

[@UpperAquatics]

Lots of great stuff here. Thank you!

[@jacalynhill7132]

OMG - I got a leopard gecko 2 weeks ago and was about to set up her permanent enclosure as an arid habitat. Now I have to do more research ... just in time!

[@AnimalsatHomePodcast]

Oh awesome, perfect timing then!

[@lisab.1559]

I have 24 lizards. Every single one has deep emotions and strong feelings! I have kept lizards since 1990. Reality is people use racks, people stick their animals in basements under artificial lights in rooms with no outside windows. They think because the animal is surviving its fine, its not. Majority of my current lizards are special needs, and I have seen them traumatized by their pasts. Some examples of this is I have an old breeder and I know she was upset that she was forced to breed. I have never bred lizards but after I got her, I introduced her to her new brother who is the same species as her and she looked up at me in panic. Her expression was obvious, she immediately thought I brought her to my family for that. When she realized that we brought her home to have a family and for her just to be loved, to just live her life she began to change and got very relaxed and happy. We took in her biological baby too who was born with no back legs and she would get stressed when she saw her. It was obvious she remembered her life having babies and she didn’t want that reminder. Once she got that her baby wasn’t going to be with her, that she could just be herself, not a Mom…she began to show genuine affection for her baby. Every time a lizard struggles, the rest of the lizards grieve. I had a room full of grief when 3 of our eldest lizards passed away. Tears in eyes were visible and each one waited frantically wanting to say goodbye. Once they got the opportunity to grieve after losing a lizard sibling, we then had days of needing to hold and comfort each lizard. Lizards are not stupid and after having fur type animals And lizards, I can say this with confidence, lizards are smarter, more emotional and have complex emotions. Lizards don’t seem intelligent because people don’t stimulate them, give them no opportunity to be outside, in real sun, they shove them in an enclosure and thats that. Heres the thing…many videos show the plights of cats and dogs in abusive situations, in puppy mills…IN crates and cages! Those animals suffer, they have developmental issues, physical issues, mental issues YET we do the same to our lizards and call It good. We call it good for our lizards, but we call it abuse for fur animals. Crazy. I say this, treat every animal with the respect it deserves. After 35 of this life I have lived with my lizards I tell people this… Dogs have your backyard…they run and play Cats have the inside of your house…they sit by the window and roam your house Lizards…they have YOU! Their stimulation is YOU. Every animal needs to have experiences, needs to be stimulated with you taking to it, loving it. You want any animal pet you have in your life to do well…its simple…ask yourself the question, would I be happy living how I am making my animal live? My lizards see my bed and you know what…they want the same…so they each have blankets and a soft place to sleep. Everyone wants to eat when they see me eat. Their eyes change and they develop incredibly when we take them out on trips. They seek out places they can look out windows, so each now have their own place to sit by the windows! Don’t ever assume lizards aren’t emotionally there, they are! BTW…everything talked about here is reality. I have biological and adopted children. My daughter I adopted was kept 20 hours a day in a crib, she is a teenager today and has the developmental brain of a a toddler due to not being stimulated. My daughter deserved better, our reptiles do too!

[@itssassysarah]

Congrats on the new baby!!

[@AnimalsatHomePodcast]

Thank you very much, Sarah!

[@realbrooklyn2093]

Hello! I just found your channel yesterday and I really appreciate your work, it has taught me a lot of interesting things in a short time! Thank you!

[@AnimalsatHomePodcast]

Glad you found the channel! Welcome 🙂

[@realbrooklyn2093]

@@AnimalsatHomePodcast Thank you!! I have two leopard geckos and I am always trying to gain knowledge about them and their care. I appreciate reptile related "podcasts" so to speak. 😊

[@AnimalsatHomePodcast]

That’s great! Well enjoy! If you ever have any questions or feedback, feel free to drop it in the comments or send me an email.

[@realbrooklyn2093]

@@AnimalsatHomePodcast Thank you, I will remember your kindness. 😊

[@muscleformonsters-david]

Great episode! Love your content!

[@AnimalsatHomePodcast]

Glad you enjoyed it, thank you for watching!

[@frankadaniels]

Hi Ricky, l am relatively new to the hobby and extremely grateful for every grain of information l can find - and this is absolutely inspiring and makes one hungry for more!! Would you maybe have any pointers about where l can find more high quality content about the care of royal pythons? I want to make sure that l offer mine the best quality of life possible and again thank you for raising the bar of reptile care! All the best from the Netherlands, Franka

[@AnimalsatHomePodcast]

Hi Franka, thank you for watching the video, I’m glad you enjoyed it! I’m sure I can speak on behalf of Ricky and recommend a few things. Definitely check out These KZbin channels: Reptiles and Research, JTB Reptiles, and Lori Torrini. Reptifiles.com and Advancing Herpetological Husbandry on Facebook are all fantastic sources of information

[@frankadaniels]

@@AnimalsatHomePodcast Big thank you, JTB was new to me - he did turn my conception of temperate gradient on its head though but that is what l love about people like you and him, you keep us keepers on our toes! 😊👌After having had my python regius Connor for a month now, l am already upgrading his enclosure to a larger pvc terrarium with more climbing space and an Arcadia ShadeDweller, so thank you again for all your incredible work!!

[@AnimalsatHomePodcast]

Awesome, I love to hear that!

[@alessandror6001]

Fascinating

[@AnimalsatHomePodcast]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@hefoxed]

Googled wild leapord geckos, clicked images... most are from zoos, but one was a thumbnail from "Where do Leopard Geckos Live in the Wild?" episode lol

[@AnimalsatHomePodcast]

😂 that shows you have a few pictures are actually are!

[@EdwardH]

Excellent stuff. Now apply some of this thinking to us human animals ... How many diseases and problems do we have due to living in boxes, impoverished movement opportunities, insufficient enrichment, poor diet etc Lucky we are hardy generalists!

[@AnimalsatHomePodcast]

Thanks, Edward! Yes, I think unfortunately many diseases/issues (if not most) can be linked to our lifestyle

[@lionra4523]

Thank you!

[@teatimescreations9659]

Can you please post the study on the effect of fake plants? I haven't been able to find anything on the subject.

[@AnimalsatHomePodcast]

Here you go! Ricky slightly misspoke as the study was done on frogs (the nature of recording live) but an interesting study nonetheless! Impact of Plant Cover on Fitness and Behavioural Traits of Captive Red-Eyed Tree Frogs (Agalychnis callidryas) Christopher J. Michaels ,Rachael E. Antwis ,Richard F. Preziosi, 2014 doi.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0095207

[@brad238899]

I have bullsnakes. They have 2 emotions. Hunger & Anger.

[@AnimalsatHomePodcast]

😂😂

[@gotohellenwaite6371]

I believe they do have emotions and can form bonds . Me and my ex were parents of crested geckos. I’m the cleaner, feeder and attention giver. He is just a handler. When the two geckos are out they come to momma bear not him. I’ve had iguanas and many snakes throughout my life and all have had different personalities. I have a bumblebee Python. She loves to cuddle . I let her bathe in the garden tub . If I’m hanging out in my room while she is in my tub she will come to me and want to curl with me. She even puts her head under my hand. So does Sersipous ( iguana) he also thinks he has the right to eat my salad before I do. We joke about Ser being a green dog.

[@savannahbrewer6161]

I'd settle for "less hostile" rather than "more entertaining" its very hard to learn new ways to do things when content creators or their followers are being hateful and nasty, especially if you ask questions.

[@AnimalsatHomePodcast]

No kidding! It seems to be getting worse and worse. I'm now seeing various channels strike up beef with each other... I mean, who has time for that!?

[@user-eu3gd4hi3t]

I think it‘s super weird that „animal right activist“ has become a bad word in our hobby. I‘ve been keeping reptiles for over a decade and about 10 years ago I started to be active in the animal rights scene and have done a lot of work there. Of course groups like Peta are awful, we can all agree on that but shouldn’t we, people that keep exotic pets, be animal rights activists? Shouldn’t we care about their well being? About their environment? And so on. I am both a reptile keeper and an animal rights activist.

[@AnimalsatHomePodcast]

It's tricky because PETA, WAP, etc. have really claimed the termed "animal rights" as their own and they are 100% anti-pet to their core. I prefer using the term "animal welfare". I agree with you, welfare should be the primary focus for every keeper!

[@steviekyme9153]

I think it's the same for everything. There are always the extreme variations of what is in all accounts a positive thing. Like an animal rights activist at its core is a great thing but then you have far end of that make that look bad. It's same as vegans for example why is it considered inheritinly weird for someone to savour life and not want to be involved in that but then you have the guys who throw fake blood etc, at its base it's great ideology but some give the bad connotation

[@darcieclements4880]

They are amniotes, so yes, only a fool would assume otherwise. I study cognition in reptiles... people in general are so massively misinformed about how life works in general, but the bs I see on reptiles in every way imaginable drives me nuts. Even people who think they understand reptiles and talk about doing a better job with care make terrible inaccurate assumptions constantly to the detriment of the animals. The moment you look at each species with new eyes and let them inform you about what they need, sense and feel, everything changes. My star subject even tells me when she doesn't feel well, like a dog. Which lead me to get test after test after test to find out what was wrong... I found it, eventually, but had she not told me, I easily could have missed it. All because I looked at her the benefit of a doubt from the start. Unfortunately, the huge gap in medical care for reptiles currently means I have had to put the cognition studies aside for the sake of helping her because she has chronic crypto, probably from her mother picked up when she hatched or even as an embryo, no one has even studied vertical transfer yet. It only bothers her some days, and she tests negative most of the time, but it is there and is another example of something we have drastically misunderstood in reptiles. Most people think they either have it and die or don't, but mine shows it is far more complex as she has had it for her entire nearly 2 years of life. No one pays people to do this research, everyone doing it I know of in the USA is self funded. Thank you for bringing better care to the forefront across the pond. Unfortunately, there are already fb groups with the name "advancing" or "advanced" in the name that are bursting with pseudoscience. Different is not better, better is what the animal tells you it prefers when given choices. Better is what wins when put to the test, not what people think will work best because some other random unrelated creature does better with it. I love that you are working towards a real better, but don't forget to help the students learn to check the ego at the door, it is probably the best skill I picked up during my own time at school even though it would take years after for me to fully embrace it, my profs planted the seeds. Be ready to toss out the entire theory the moment the data doesn't fit. (and before anyone panics, I have suspected crypto since this animal was just a few months old and take steps to prevent it spreading, it just took close to 2 years to get a positive test) Edit: Just hit the part about precocial... for the record, the snake I have, her precociousness when I got her at a month old was barely functional... like yeah, she could move from point a to point b, but she sucked at it. She spent a lot of time learning to climb on different surfaces, learning how to manipulate food to eat it, how to move objects. The brain dead animals in captivity are almost certainly the result of stimulation deprivation.

[@AnimalsatHomePodcast]

Thank you for watching the episode and adding to the discussion, Darcie! Sad to hear you are dealing with a case of Crypto but it sounds like the snake is in good hands. A few episodes from now I briefly discuss the issue with under-funded vet med research, so I completely agree with you!