Chinese Crossbow History of Song Dynasty

[@themodernarmbruster]

Woo hoo! This was such a fun project - great video! I’m looking forward to the next one- all you subscribers are going to LOVE it!!!

[@HistoricalWeapons]

Can't wait! Can’t spoil but heres a hint - it’s not in china

[@marcellusbrutus3346]

@@HistoricalWeapons omg make a greek crossbow or japanese one

[@HistoricalWeapons]

Early Chinese Gunpowder Weapons next?

[@Intranetusa]

300-500+ lb Han Dynasty and Song Dynasty crossbows prods next. We want you to put your muscles to the test. Muscular chad crossbowmen > weak virgin gunpowdermen.

[@HistoricalWeapons]

@@Intranetusa I can’t find someone to make 300lb prods with long powerstroke with m shape. Let me know if you can find

[@rayray6490]

That would be nice. I’m curious if the Chinese ever developed explosive rockets or just rocket-propelled arrows

[@Intranetusa]

@@HistoricalWeapons Will do. I thought you were able to find bowmen who could make 240+ lb D-shaped prods with long powerstrokes? Are those prods too big/long for testing purposes?

[@Intranetusa]

@@rayray6490 Both. Song Dynasty armies had fire arrows which were both rockets strapped to arrows to propel them and bombs strapped to the tips of arrows, and likely a combination of both. The Ming Dynasty had exploding rockets in the shape of birds and dragons called Huolongjing.

[@xiaotian5863]

You even talk like Ian with the "and...."

[@marcellusbrutus3346]

Thanks for staying tuned to another video at FW, and today......

[@HistoricalWeapons]

And

[@b.h.abbott-motley2427]

Thank you for continuing to research this topic & reconstruct historical Chinese crossbows. It's fascinating how the Song military treatise the Wujing Zongyao describes crossbows used in rotating volleys & claims the crossbow is the best weapon if used properly. In theory, this sounds plausible, given the success rotating volleys with firearms had centuries later. However, the Song dynasty ran into lots of military trouble in the decades after the Wujing Zongyao was complied.

[@markdennis254]

Probably because an untrained peasant with a bow outputs 50 joules while a crossbow with his legs outputs 220 joules

[@markdennis254]

Meanwhile bows from trained archers are in between but expensive

[@b.h.abbott-motley2427]

@@markdennis254 It's yet to be proven that this type of crossbow manages 220 J. If it does, I'm skeptical an "untrained peasant" could span it. Cheng Zongyou's crossbow manual from much later explicitly states that shooting well with a bow is difficult & recommends a type of crossbow instead on that basis. Cheng's manuals address how to turn peasants into soldiers; this process involved training. Crossbows, pike, & sword were apparently easier to large than archery, but we're still not talking about untrained peasants. (The style of crossbow Cheng used was different from earlier Chinese crossbows & described as weaker than a weak bow most anyone could draw.)

[@HistoricalWeapons]

@@b.h.abbott-motley2427 an untrained peasant can easily span 150lb@22”. (Modern crossbow proof) That’s much more superior than the peasant with a 50lb bow

[@dongf2618]

@@markdennis254 untrained peasant was a myth. It was told too many times online, and it just sounded like truth nowadays, but it is wrong. Throughout much of the Chinese history, armies were always trained, unless it is absolutely necessary to enlist untrained peasants because trained soldiers all died. Either way, you have train people every year for several months, or for years and then releasing them after their military service ended. If wars erupted, these people would be called to arms. Especially during the Song dynasty, the military was made entirely out of professional soldiers. So there it goes the validity of the argument that professional armies are always better than the compulsory military service, or the mix of compulsory and voluntary military service.

[@dongf2618]

thank you for all your hard-work! Enjoy watching your videos.

[@raphlvlogs271]

the pistol grip and lack of stock is also a feature found on later period Chinese muskets

[@HistoricalWeapons]

Agreed

[@426mak]

1st. Song Crossbow, where the weapon reached its apex in China.

[@zhangtony3372]

Why Apex

[@zhangtony3372]

Why not Han

[@dingdong4156]

Apex is 21st century

[@HistoricalWeapons]

@@dingdong4156 technically yea the 21st century crossbows are the most advanced lmao

[@426mak]

@@zhangtony3372 Here's why kzbin.info/www/bejne/e3KxdZWknKuhepY

[@carlredbird3054]

The is a really nice crossbow, especially that dark wood stock. Really big heavy crossbow cavalry is really cool. Kinda like Dragoons, they could load up with more armor, and ammo, and heavier weapons than a normal infantry

[@busurbusur2381]

Shoot once and retreat to reload. Heavy infantry with no range support would get wrecked. It might take all day but these mounted artillery have all day

[@legntt3488]

Counter with melee cav or horse arxhers

[@busurbusur2381]

@@legntt3488 yes there are counters to mounted artillery but I’m saying now there’s finally an answer to heavy infantry meta

[@HistoricalWeapons]

@@busurbusur2381 I don’t think mounted crossbow artillery is the solution to heavy infantry meta. They are good harassers but u need a huge Quantity of crossbow artillery to seriously defeat heavy infantry (because the huge quantity of melee infantry in general). Or else they are just harassers. Mounted cannons on the other hand….hmmmmm I wonder if they did that

[@zhangtony3372]

Truely forgotten weapon

[@busurbusur2381]

That’s mass produced

[@dingdong4156]

Unlike things like a47 ppsh and mg42

[@dsasd778]

Bow Buddha is back, should do video with gun Jesus

[@user-nb2bt2fu1e]

Best comment

[@ianuser9650]

@@user-nb2bt2fu1e who’s bow Buddha who’s gun Jesus

[@bugger6881]

@@ianuser9650 Ian

[@VictorJavannn]

@@ianuser9650 forgotten weapon youthbe channel

[@Intranetusa]

I wonder how much draw weight played a factor in the stirrup vs no stirrup issue. Heavier prods would require placing both legs on the limb for greater force and stability compared to one leg on the stirrup. Many heavy Han crossbows were also so heavy that they had to be drawn while laying on your back and placing both feet against the prod...which might not be practical if it used a stirrup.

[@qr1-tg1wi]

Stirrup for shorter power stroke

[@landsknecht8654]

Love this channel I learned quite a bit about bows and stuff on this channel which is quite interesting. I'm wondering is it possible one day you could do a video between different arrowheads and weights of arrows?

[@HistoricalWeapons]

I’d love to get into arrows, it’s not my specialty but I would need to do research

[@DJ-nx6in]

Crossbow is the most effective weapon for trained peasants to contest cavalries from north.

[@markdennis254]

Ming prefer archers instead

[@samgyeopsal569]

@@markdennis254 Ming also used Arquebuses, very cool

[@HistoricalWeapons]

@@samgyeopsal569 true

[@MarcRitzMD]

I hope you one day write us a book that will become a reference material for any scholar, enthusiast and replica maker. Traversing Chinese sources is such a daunting task

[@AdlerMow]

I hope you do a test on the heaviest horn prod you can get. This would be a true beast at +350lb!

[@HistoricalWeapons]

That’s the problem lol! Can’t find

[@alternator7893]

I LOVE crossbows dude. So accurate and satisfying to use.

[@HistoricalWeapons]

Same!

[@MrLantean]

The Chinese crossbow has a deeper penetration at greater range than the Medieval crossbow. The Medieval crossbow may be powerful but it has much shorter range due to a much shorter powerful stroke. When full draw, the Medieval crossbow is barely halfway of the stock while in contrast, the Chinese crossbow is at the end of the stock. Also the Chinese may have more advanced knowledge in metallurgy science, they never consider metal prods for their crossbows. Crossbows with metal prods known as arbalest may be powerful but the draw weight is so great that it is impossible to use muscle power. A special device known as windlass pulley or cranequin is required to draw the metal prods. It is a very time-consuming process as well trained and experienced arbalesters are able to shoot 2 bolts per minute. This make the arbalests more effective in defense rather than offence.

[@KevinWahyudi5196]

Because trigger bar act like lever Long trigger bar easy to draw Short trigger bar hard to draw

[@dongf2618]

Tod's 1000lb draw-weight crossbow with steel prod shooting a 96g bolt only produced 110J of energy when released. Jack's 120lb draw-weight crossbow with wood-bamboo prod shooting a 57g bolt produced 113J of energy.

[@dongf2618]

@@KevinWahyudi5196 The Chinese trigger is a twin-axle trigger which does not require as much force to pull the trigger as the single-axel trigger design of the European crossbows.

[@markhuckercelticcrossbows7887]

what i find interesting is, how early, the development in asia of composite bows and a proper trigger system, as opposed to a pusher or peg trigger. yet they didnt have a full tiller or shoulder stock. obviously more stable and accurate than a pisto design.

[@qr1-tg1wi]

Peg triggers / flick/push it up triggers are common in se Asia like Vietnam Miao Hmong etc

[@MarcRitzMD]

You can easily lengthen or shorten the draw by adjusting where the stock attaches to the prod. Put a small block in-between and you lengthen the draw, or saw out a bigger section for a shorter draw

[@HistoricalWeapons]

Yes for sure. Btw is the audio/video ok?

[@srinjoyroychoudhury7034]

The bow is beautiful to look at. But I've heard some older Chinese crossbows even had pistol grips

[@July-qo7jp]

I don't think the guy who invented the crossbow was as enthusiastic about them as Jack.

[@happiman9484]

Perhaps the cavalry operated like during the very much later age of firearms? Where they wouldn't shoot from horses but rather use them to set up obscure fires, able to reposition or run, like a mobile light artillery?

[@dydactic1112]

Great content as always

[@HistoricalWeapons]

Glad you think so!

[@turtleh]

I did not know crossbows were banned in China

[@HistoricalWeapons]

Yeah

[@Mass.T]

I remember crossbow and armor are forbidden to be owned by commons in Han Dynasty. Only government can own.

[@vintagebowyer1692]

Ian should do a collab with u

[@marcellusbrutus3346]

Excellent sources

[@AdlerMow]

I have wishing a video review of reproduction for at least a decade now! Im really happy, a small dream come true!

[@HistoricalWeapons]

Haha glad you see

[@HistoricalWeapons]

Please spread the word

[@busurbusur2381]

So even the stirrup crossbow is a Chinese invention that spread west later lol

[@vintagebowyer1692]

Rope stirrup probably stone age invention

[@recursr1892]

Thanks for this well researched work! - I wonder on the warfare context-sounds like song dynasty where loosing against mongols? Any text left from mongols why this heavy weapon did not impress them? -would ve interesting to see the penetration power of this on lets say a 100yards. -interesting how long the limbs are-I always wondered why crossbows evoluted towards shorter limbs&powerstroke in Europe.. -this video is a carefull contribution but it would be essential to understand who this weapons where used-obviously few texts around, so a lot if guess work-my 5cents: why using a weapon good against heavy armoured slow targets (a.e european knights) while fighting against fast light armoured targets (mongols)-could this explain the deafeat of the songs?

[@qr1-tg1wi]

Weapon is just one aspect. By the time the mongols attack song they already conquered jin and tunguts which is a mix of northern Chinese and nomads and tibetans , so they had access to crossbows, explosives and early guns already, along with superior cavalry and archers

[@qr1-tg1wi]

Europeans had longer powerstroke crossbows before mainstream medieval ones

[@recursr1892]

@@qr1-tg1wi thanks for that info..hmm..sounds like warfare was more complex than a single type of weapon vs a single type of armour, already by then.

[@Greentangle]

300 yards=290m

[@chinghoolow4628]

Hi are you considering to talk about artillery bow system like 三弓床子驽 sangongchuangzinu? I saw Steven Gardner in KZbin made one, since China banned heavy pound crossbow I found very little info about this.

[@HistoricalWeapons]

Id love to but i dont have space for artillery

[@Maaguaa]

Very interesting 🤔

[@george7951]

Would you be able to go into technical details on the repro? Or is it as easy as it seems, just a piece of stock holding a bow with a trigger system similar to Han crossbows? As a Chinese owning one of those would be a dream

[@ShortT-RexLikeArms]

Wondering if you could talk about the spanning methods for crossbow used in China?

[@szeklergeneral4266]

could you make a video please about the hungarian style griffin bow from paragon?

[@jackblackpowderprepper4940]

Hey my friend I don't know your channel but the name caught my eye. Maybe you can help a friend of mine. His channel is called, "Faces in the Stone ". He just posted a video of a bow and some points, tools etc. he found in a clay bank washed out somewhere in the eastern part of the US. The bow appears to be a several hundred year old sapling laminate, 2 saplings graphed together COMPOUND bow. It is amazing. Check it out he wants to know who would preserve it, carbon date it and display it for all to see.this bow was manipulated during growth and is a masterpiece in technology.

[@johnhayes6414]

Hi. Great stuff. I would like to know where I can get resorces for Chinese related period clothing,armor,weapons. For SCA and authentic stuff

[@HistoricalWeapons]

I recommend starting with Lk Chen

[@johnhayes6414]

what about clothing and armor mostly interested in

[@HistoricalWeapons]

@@johnhayes6414 I recommend the Chinese armor Facebook group to start

[@dongf2618]

@@johnhayes6414 I would suggest the youtube channel "King of Wuzhen - Jie Ge." He does many armored re-enactments in historical clothing, ranging from the Shang dynasty 13th Century BC to pre-modern China.

[@beepboop204]

🙂

[@philozoraptor6808]

I always wondered why Europeans never used this longer draw length variant of crossbow instead of the short ones, this is just far more efficient (assuming you got space to shoot it I guess). BTW are you gonna do some tests with chrono?

[@VictorJavannn]

They did

[@philozoraptor6808]

@@VictorJavannn Could you link some sources please. I am genuinely interested. The longest European xbow "reference" I found is this picture, I estimated those numbers there: staticdelivery.nexusmods.com/mods/3174/images/791/791-1639313917-2071535690.png

[@HistoricalWeapons]

@@philozoraptor6808 I’ve seen artillery versions longer

[@HistoricalWeapons]

The trigger design limits portable crossbow length

[@philozoraptor6808]

@@HistoricalWeapons Interesting, did not know that. So chinese crossbow can get longer due to different trigger? What about middle-eastern crossbows? I heard (maybe one of your videos) that they were more like Chinese crossbows, just a regular bow attached to rest of the "body" with relatively long draw?

[@helenali6435]

I'm really interested in if this shorter song era crossbow could be reloaded from horseback. Can you span one of these with the stock braced against your torso, pulling the string back with both hands? and from a seated position?

[@HistoricalWeapons]

I assume it’s a portable artillery device used like dragoons. Devastating one shot against shielded infantry but slow reload dismounted on foot

[@bugger6881]

Yea

[@bakhirkhan8424]

Thanks for the vid

[@aoe2_elo037]

That’s illegal in Canada because pistol grip

[@legntt3488]

One handed and under 500mm are illegal. Pistol grip is a feature of one hand but this toooo heavy one hand

[@dingdong4156]

ask any judge to try to hold it one handed with the pistol grip. Good luck

[@dingdong4156]

Modern commercial crossbows have pistol grip too

[@themodernarmbruster]

Haha no way. It’s over 500mm and designed for use with two hands. Even if you wanted to, there is no way you could effectively use this crossbow stock with one hand; it’s just too front-heavy, even with out the prod. I know, because I built it :)

[@marcellusbrutus3346]

Its legal

[@raphlvlogs271]

the stirrup was likely to be introduced from Europe or Central Asia

[@MarkMiller304]

China had stirrups for quite a while before Europe. It most like went from east to west.

[@thfkmnIII]

E Asia was using stirrups before europe proper

[@corganwampler2532]

You can't own a cross bow in China wow that's actually extremely sad... IG there is no such thing as off grid living in China

[@jonessmith-cf1ci]

what is the drawweight of the crossbow?

[@少年阳光]

Beast

[@VictorJavannn]

Why

[@MbisonBalrog]

Can you load crossbow while kneeling?

[@HistoricalWeapons]

Yes but either different technique and spanning method. The standard method behind walls is butt on the ground, feet extended . The battlefield method is the same as European foot span

[@MbisonBalrog]

@@HistoricalWeapons please demonstrate

[@MarcRitzMD]

The Chinese already used wood laminate bows?

[@HistoricalWeapons]

we have proof in warring states already

[@phawang37]

U in Quebec

[@HistoricalWeapons]

No Alberta

[@jonessmith-cf1ci]

Can the crossbow pierce heavy armor or breastplate?

[@qr1-tg1wi]

Depends on material

[@langdavid6852]

🎉🎉🎉

[@joaomanoel3197]

👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻

[@lichenggong1248]

Wow

[@narasimhahungund1933]

I have arrows but I don't have money i didn't get bow can you please gift me this bow sir 🏹 please

[@fatboy8420]

Woooooow

[@qr1-tg1wi]

Tes😊

[@VictorJavannn]

Yes

[@Not-Just-Cars]

thumbs up

[@sinsinsss5216]

Podo Barat malah gede

[@sinsinsss5216]

Lha koe tau ajah Barat pora

[@landsknecht8654]

First

[@laurensspruit1647]

Come on, pounds and feet. I know were talking about historical weapons but just use normal measurements.

[@myhome9354]

nice

[@mintiemoments]

Haha dude it's a crossbow, no one forgot crossbows.

[@HistoricalWeapons]

Thats like says dude its a sword. No one forget sword.

[@mintiemoments]

Well that'd be true too, no one forgot about the sword either.

[@jun-ch2203]

不伦不类

[@caturion5453]

为什么这么说？

[@TemujinKhan]

Yes