Another Professional Dog Trainer That Needs to Be Fired

In this video, Ed Frawley shares a question from the Ask Cindy database. Today's question is about a questionable dog trainer. Ed gives his take on the situation and what he would do differently.
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[@cynthiaaustin1763]

Your courses are absolutely worth every cent!!! Totally recommend.

[@LeerburgDogTraining]

Thanks so much, I am glad you found them helpful!

[@madelineschmidt1058]

Really grateful for you and this video. While my personal philosophy is against E collars for my own dogs, I have to admit that I was uneducated about them before finding your channel. TBH, I thought most trainers who used them were like this trainer in your video. Hearing your pragmatic advice about e collars has helped me understand a lot more nuance and for that, I’m super thankful. 💕🐶💕🐶

[@efrawley55]

Read this on Christams morning - made my day (along with family gifts) 🙂

[@Enjoythepour]

This is infuriating. I am glad the person wrote to y’all. I am kind of curious as to how they found you. They could probably train their own dog, through your programs.

[@efrawley55]

Thats a good question. The simple point that they knew something was wrong and they chose to do their own research. They did go one and purchase my REMOTE COLLAR TRAINING FOR THE PET OWNER. :-)

[@lauralbriar]

It's heartbreakiing to know there are "yank and crank" trainers still out there - I've encountered 2 in our area - both with GSD and both still training as if it was 1960 - complete with helicoptering the dog when it isn't heeling the way they want. And both these trainers have students enough to pay the bills! One drives around with a huge sign on his SUV that says "WORKING DOGS -STAY BACK" . Completely sickening and nothing that can be done it seems. I pity the dogs that have to deal with them. Thank you for posting this video - hopefully people might take this more seriously and do what's right for their dogs.

[@ElisabethBaumgart]

To be honest, a "Working dogs - stay back!" sign seems much more empathetic and dog-friendly to me than "You're invited to pet my friendly dogs!", so I'd actually become interested in their work if I read that. Of course, if I saw them mistreating dogs I'd be the first to leave and report. (In my country it's no problem to report someone like that and make sure they lose their license to train dog owners/ dogs. I wish I could help you do sth. about actual mistreatment, but I'm no more powerful than your laws and yourself. All you can do is go into politics and change the law, I guess. But who does that, just like that, for some random dogs?).

[@lauralbriar]

@ElisabethBaumgart Thank you for your reply and I understand your thoughts on their sign - I know them though and although I've never seen the wife do anything but be kind to her GSD's the husband is a totally different matter - and I have, along with several others reported his actions. He is currently banned from competing at some clubs - however, in this country anyone can say they are a dog trainer and no licence is required - and unless the humane society says it's animal cruelty, it goes on. Like you say, all that can be done is try to change the laws......and hope it happens. Best wishes to you and yours for the Holidays - hug your dogs as I'm sure you do and wish that others will too!

[@ElisabethBaumgart]

@@lauralbriar Happy holidays to you, too, kind internet stranger!

[@Jeffrison]

I just wanna say the levels he mentioned for a dog to first feel the stim is around 14 on a Dogtra, that's pretty high for some dogs already. My dog is a sensitive Borer Collie/Aussie Shepherd and he can feel the Dogtra on a 6 at it's lowest.

[@efrawley55]

Maybe I misspoke - in my online course title REMOTE COLLAR TRAINING FOR THE PER OWNER - I filmed 15 or 16 dogs who were first exposed to stimulation from a remote. I did this to show that evvery dog is different - some ignore the stimulation until it get quite high. They dont know what it is so they ignore it. But with experience almost all will react to much lower levels - assuming the distraction levels stay the same. Bottom line on remote collar training is the working level fluctuates from dog to dog, from levels of distraction, and the exercise being trained.

[@Jeffrison]

@efrawley55 Yes, thank you for clarifying. It's important to remind people that the working level is different for every dog. In case some people don't take the proper courses and work with the proper trainers and decide to start their sensitive dog off on a 20.

[@Armorakc]

You need to love animals to become a trainer or else you can truely train nothing … Giving commands is not training… Training your dog to communicate with you and understand you is what training is :) Help animals against these so called trainers …. Very good and honest video ❤

[@plastikloser]

E collar is adavnced training for dogs who have basic obedience down pat and is primarily needed for off leash behaviors or reactive problems. Not beggineers who have no idea what you want.

[@1packatak]

You’ve never trained a real working dog. It is used to help get behaviors more accurate. To build drive. There are so many things you can do with an ecollar if you know how.

[@efrawley55]

You are correct in saying that its advanced training - bur there are so many applications beyond basic obedience - I doesnt always have to be used for recalls or off leash work. Can it be used for that? Yes - but its not always needed. New dog trainers can screw up a dog quicker that fly shit on the front window of a car if they don't learn how and when to use it. Unfortunately there are so many people who push the envelope because they need money and dont tell prospective customers that wont spend the money for the time it would take to do the rigt kind of job. Those type of people need to find better day wor - because they give good dog trainers a bad name.

[@plastikloser]

@1packatak I dont know if you actually watched the video. The point was a 10 month old pup with zero training, was being put on a e collar and stimed till they yelped. They were told not to say the word no, or give it treats. Adversive only training is just as bad as positive only training. You start shokcing a dog that doesnt know how to walk on a leash or sit or do anything you want because its never been show how and what. These things can be easily taught with out an e collar. You regularly see children teaching these basics to pups and dogs. If you thing that its ok to light a puppy up with an e collar, instead of the using a treat and buidling a bond to achieve the same result. Then i hope you really dont work with dogs at all

[@CCOREY5]

Using an ecollar on reactive dogs can backfire real quick. I use an ecollar , but not for reactivity

[@1packatak]

@ there is a right and wrong way to work a reactive dog on an ecollar. I’ve seen it work miracles in the right hands

[@vmon215]

Keep doing these. The views will come. Good stuff as always.

[@ElisabethBaumgart]

As a German, I get very irritated by the legality (in the US) of calling oneself a professional when they have no qualification whatsoever.

[@MaximillianandRubyGrace]

@ElisabethBaumgart I used a “qualified” trainer.. now I’d say ask lots of questions on their ideologies and methods before hand

[@efrawley55]

Well said

[@OakCliffK9]

There should be no ideologies in dog training. There should be ethics and methodologies.​@@MaximillianandRubyGrace

[@ElisabethBaumgart]

@@MaximillianandRubyGrace That's always a good idea, yeah. How do you qualify in the US, though? I wonder if non-qualified "professionals" are allowed to test prospective dog trainers and issue qualifications themselves. I hope not. ^^ I reckon there are sth. like "dog trainer universities"? Who tests them in the first place? The government? The customers? Associations? I'm genuinely curious, as the animal welfare laws in the US seem to be non-existent, so I wonder who makes sure that there's nothing fishy going on. Don't get me wrong, I know there are incredibly good dog trainers in the US, too. In fact, I follow some of them on KZbin. Unfortunately, though, oftentimes I have to block dog training channels suggested by the KZbin algorithm.

[@judyives1832]

@@MaximillianandRubyGrace Also ask for their REAL qualifications. Make sure that their qualifications are with legitimate organizations. Organizations that require formal courses and exams. Every legitimate trainer will also have courses in first aid for dogs. But my best advice as a guide and service dog trainer (retired guide dog trainer who now privately trains guide and service dogs for people with multiple disabilities) is to NEVER use a trainer that thinks causing your dog pain , is a legitimate training technique. It’s not. If they suggest “leash pops”, shock, punch or choke collars, than do not hire them. A good trainer has no need to use pain to get your dog to comply. Using pain means your dog has no opportunity to love their “work”. You can get compliance but we have studied guide dogs for many many years and punishment training is found to really harm the bond and the effectiveness of guide dogs. You didn’t get a family pet and companion because you wanted to harm that dog. Don’t get sucked into “it’s not going to hurt much”, or “it’s just a leash pop”. You can wreck your dogs thyroid very easily by yanking on their neck. You might be lucky and nothing severely bad is caused by using force against your dog, but it’s just the same as spanking a child. A spank once in awhile may not hurt much, but it doesn’t fix anything either.

[@aurorarenata8020]

Made that mistake going to one of these e-collar / yank and crank trainers. My poor boy kept looking at me with sad eyes “make it stop, please”. His body language was telling me he didn’t like this man and he loves everyone. I smelled the rat during the first session.

[@DF-te2vm]

your dog didn't deserve that treatment..... hope he is ok,..... no, he will be ok when he knows you wont put him through any of that again....... the most most important thing is for dog to trust you, everything comes after that

[@Mtfrederick]

Thanks for sharing.

[@rockstarguitaracademy]

I wish that all trainers had to get CCPDT certfied, or something similar, to be allowed to be a professional dog trainer. It would help weed out all these hack trainers!!!

[@dankmeme2756]

The APDT is a racket of incompetent bafoons.

[@time4paws]

💯

[@armandhammer2235]

Thank you for always informing me. I have a small problem. My 2 three year old American Bull Terriers are about 8's on basic obedience. One knows about 50 tricks. My problem and question is this...I purchased a new E-collar (I lost the remote to my Garmin) and began using it on off leash walks. I accidentally 'shocked' my dogs a couple times for no reason. I've since learned to lock out the remote so that won't happen but now the dogs lower their heads and act scared/submissive when they see me pick up the collars. All my fault. How do you recommend I fix what I did by accident and condition the dogs to look at the collars as something that predicts a good thing, walks. Thanks.

[@1packatak]

@@armandhammer2235 start training with fun stuff!!! Get those rewards out. Be it food or toys. Set your collar on a very low level and work with the dog. Lots of “good boy!” You must also make sure your emotions are in check. Your dog will read your anxiety. Make sure you are in a “hey let’s have fun” mode. If somehow it happens again - and it probably will- just reset your collar and go about your business. If you don’t make a big deal, your dog won’t either. Fried mine once-didn’t realize I had somehow turned it up to a 70 (mini educator) while changing the collar. Got a nasty yelp. Called my GSDx to me with a big happy voice. A bunch of treats and pets. Continued on our walk and used some quick little stims several times in the next couple of minutes along with a ton of rewards. By the end of the walk she was fine.

[@LeerburgDogTraining]

When people have specific training questions we recommend that they go to our website and post those questions in the ASK CINDY on the front page of leerburg.com . Cindy has been training dogs since she was a teenager and has competed in several dog sports at a regional and national level. She was also a vet tech and owned a boarding/training and grooming business for many years as well as breeding working Dobermans and Belgian Malinois under the kennel name Kaiserhaus. Questions posted to ASK CINDY are answered almost every day. They are also recorded in our systems if a dog owner has additional questions Cindy will review the previous Q&As and this helps her give better feedback and assistance. leerburg.com/qa/contact-cindy.php

[@armandhammer2235]

@LeerburgDogTraining Thanks

[@eliseholton9284]

ignoring triggers.......my world x

[@efrawley55]

Agreed but One has to know what the triggers are before they can do anything about them. New dog trainers, civilians or police officers don;t know enough about dog training to recognize them.

[@MaximillianandRubyGrace]

My dog went through a k9 prog in VA and it was horrible. I was told NO treats. All she did was hit the dog with the collar and say sit(which he did know) teaching the down was very traumatic as again he knew down. Teaching heel was set up at a 70+ she said go high them down It left me with a dog that was more leery of dogs and I had to retrain after her disaster She also called my dog “dramatic” I’d never recommend a k9 ecollar peg after this program.

[@DF-te2vm]

sorry for you and your pup...... dogs don't deserve that treatment..... look at what they do and want to do, they love us, they protect us, they give us comfort...... all they ask is for security of survival

[@MaximillianandRubyGrace]

@ I now only use my ecollar for off leash recall after reconditioning

[@MsBleau]

Did you do any research on this person? Did you go watch any training sessions previous? Or were they recommended by a friend?

[@MaximillianandRubyGrace]

@ the k9 prg I found and and heard of, apparently they’re independently owned. I had a big issue from puppyhood that my growing male Newfie would take off and run towards other dogs ALL the time. Never ever had I read, seen or heard of this in this breed so I was at a loss. I needed a way to be able to communicate to a giant dog quickly therefor this seemed like it would help me. I had seen countless videos on how the ecollar worked etc so I went for it. BUT I wasn’t allowed To do group sessions because I do not over vaccinate my dogs, therefor I basically got who I got in a private session which I think was a punishment in of itself and I was left with a less than trainer(imho)

[@MsBleau]

@@MaximillianandRubyGrace Thank you for not over v'ing. Some of the vets around here are starting to see that it's causing more problems then preventing. It's hard when you're under the gun to find an answer. I hope you're able to solve your problem. And maybe find a reputable trainer.

[@ColorfulBallerina]

It's important to define the difference between a shock collar and an ecollar. Ecollars use TENS unit frequency- if you've been to physical therapy and gotten your muscles shocked by the TENS unit, you know how it feels.

[@pebbleinyoshoe532]

Lots of trash dog trainers after covid these days. It’s sad.

[@MsBleau]

Unfortunately that's not the only employment they have ruined

[@TeslaNick2]

Nah, I feel mini educators at level 2 and the whole waiting until you see a reaction is so out of date. There are much better ways to condition ecollars now. great advice as always Ed. That trainer sounds really bad, so many red flags.

[@1packatak]

And I don’t feel a mini until a 14 or 15. Every dog is different. I had a 115 lb Male Rott who’s working level was a 4. My other one worked at 10. My current GSDx (she also has Cattle dog, Border Collie and Rott in her. She works at a 19. Every dog is different.

[@efrawley55]

Determining the work level of using a remote constantly changes. Even after the foundation training It fluctuates depending on the distractions or the environment the dog is in. It changes with the exercise that its being used in, There are so many variables to think about. The video I produced a few years ago show me exposing 15 to 16 dogs to their first experience with low level stimulation. Then after the first time I sow hw once the dogs have had their first experience things change - some require much lower stimulation - while other need to be bumped up a little. Also the size or breed of the dog have nothing to do with it. I demoed tat in the training video where a little dog would require a much higher level than an adult working line GSD. The trainer in this video is an insult to every good dog trainer out there. It really burns me to hear that thhis person does what she does. It's probably good i dont know here name because I would post it.

[@samwdavis]

This videco is so disencombabulated that I don't even know where to start. FIRST of all, a 10 month old dog is NOT... it is NOT a puppy. A ten WEEK old dog is a puppy. A ten month old dog is not an adult. It's more like a human late teenager, but it certainly isn't like a toddler. A ten-month old dog is VERY capable of understanding eCollar communication. This video mixes up eCollar usage as ONLY punitive training versus eCollar training layered over collar training. This video is PUR|E MUD. There is nothing clear or logical about it. You may be justified in attacking this particular trainer's techniques, but at the same time, you are muddying up a LOT of training techniques in a way that doesn't serve the public.... IMHO.

[@NickyHughes-rb6px]

You didn’t listen to the conversation. You do not just start with a ecollar you have to start with training. E collar only assists you to improve performance but the dog has to have an understanding of the behaviour required prior to implementing the ecollar.

[@efrawley55]

Obviously you have a lot to learn about dog training and building a relationship with dogs. There is no MUD here other than your post. A 10 month old dog is a puppy. If a trainer wants to eventually use a collar in a training program they can have the dog wearing a collar as young as 6 months. Not using the collar just wearing the collar. If you think a 10 month old puppy should be getting remote collar training your a fool that needs a lot more training yourself.

[@khanhhm5762]

@@efrawley55This was a great video, and I thought the points were well addressed. it really is a bummer that tools like ecollars are so misused. So are training techniques. Sometimes I get so overwhelmed with all the incompetent trainers out there that I just want to crawl under a rock. But then there are also plenty of very good people.

[@1packatak]

@@efrawley55 I think a 10 mo pup can handle ecollar training if the trainer knows what they are doing. I’ve started it at 6-7 months after laying a good foundation. And I know many high level trainers (think IGP/PSA) that use it at young ages too.

[@efrawley55]

@@1packatak I respectfully disagree. Just because it can be done does not mean its the right thing to do. In my opoinion the best thing to do with young dogs is to b uild a relationship with the dog and work towards developing a dog that wants to learn. There is no need for using a remote on a young pup of 6 or 7 months. As far as I am concerned that time should be spent establishing a relationship with the dog, establishing a foundation in reward based training. We have the rest of a dogs life to do finishing work. Why start at 6 or 7 months. I dont care how good a trainer is - or how many sport titles they have or what exercise they are training it makes no sense to me. Just because someone is classified a "high level PAS or IGP" trainer doesn't qualify them to tell anyone how to train a puppy with a remote - or how smart they are. I got my first Sch (IGP) title back in the early 1980's. I have known more high level trainers over the last 45 years that I would never want them to touch my puppies. Those people can force a dog to do almost anything -they should not be held up as GOOD EXAMPLES.

[@DF-te2vm]

I hate those e-collars and even prong collars, dogs can learn without them, It is a lack of understanding of how dogs think and how to help dogs. People (some people) think that those so-called tools are some magical communication tool...... they just turn the dial up and basically torture the pups. It is really a lack of understanding on how to see dogs.... MO

[@k9socal1]

The only people who hate ecollars and prong collars are those who have never used them!

[@DF-te2vm]

@@jadesisk1852 yes, you completely convinced yourself about all the usefulness of these things. There are some people who can 'maybe' use these things without harming the dog 'maybe'...... 6 minutes in this video...."you don't use remote collars to train behavior", what does that mean to you and others? Have you put the collar on yourself and zapped it at 100?? It is frigin torture. You may be able to use without harming your dog, the thing is many or most people just turn up the shock when the dog doesn't even know what the f is happening. It just is not some kind of magical communication tool. ....... There are always exceptions to every situation but most dogs will listen and learn without those kind of things. I disagree with "the best training tool" .... again listen to him at 6 minutes in. And it isn't "someone out there", it is thousands and thousands of people hurting their dog..... out of stupidity and ignorance, the frigin dogs are smarter then that....... for examples, dog saves people from fire, dog naturally protects child or family, dog sniffs disease, dog senses dangers we can't even know...... understand dogs for the abilities, intelligence, capabilities, ability to help PTSD and humans depressed, emotions, and sense of survival. Some mother dogs are better nurturers the human mothers. i could go on....

[@tracyjohnson5023]

@@jadesisk1852Testify! Great explanation! I'm an ABA practitioner and couldn't have explained things any better. I've long said what works with dogs and horses also works with humans as we're all mammals, except dogs and horses learn faster...and we can't use e-collars on people even though it would probably help lol. It all boils down to make the right thing easy and the wrong thing hard.

[@efrawley55]

Of course everyone has an opinion, but those who have your opinion are well intended but you lack experience. You have not trained many dogs and you will hit a wall with many dogs who have been allowed to practice bad behavior for an extended period of time. Ill tell you what happened with the ALL-POSITIVE trainers - they give up and the dogs are either put down or surrendered to a shelter (and often put down).

[@DF-te2vm]

@@efrawley55 I am NOT 'all positive' that also is a lack of understanding of what drives, influences and changes dogs behaviors. I have been with shelter dogs for 10 years & on my 5th pit. I believe in firmness, not meanness. The shortcomings are the owners and people, not the dogs. If you look at how a mother dog 'teaches' her pups', (you have talked about this)..... dogs are coming from a place of survival from instincts, They have to see owner as leader enough to provide for survival and all it's implications...... really, the training should be for the people .....dogs are easier then most realize