Anti-Capitalist Investing Is... Absurd - Jen Pan

Jen Pan explains why the new trend of "anti-capitalist investing" is just elite charity with another name, and only helps maintain the power of elites over everyone else's lives. "Investing" with social awareness will not put an end to the oppression and exploitation inherent in capitalism. Only socialism can manage that.
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[@justanotherguy1794]

To Jen Pan's critics on this thread: Jameson's line about how "It's easier to imagine the end of the world than the end of capitalism" IS NOT a defense of capitalism.

[@msolomonii9825]

necrotic stage capitalism, it's just plain cancer.

[@justanotherguy1794]

@@msolomonii9825 Actually, it's a bad analogy: cancer can be/has been "cured:" people have been cured of their cancer(s). Capitalism can/has not; no one's been cured of capitalism. In fact, capitalism is why people aren't cured of cancer in the first place. Capitalism isn't whiteness or cancer or even neoliberalism: it's just capitalism and has to be understood and confronted and eradicated as such.

[@msolomonii9825]

@@justanotherguy1794 "capitalism is why people aren't cured of cancer", very true! I meant capitalism in simply the sense of it being a thing that just grows rampantly for growths sake devouring mindlessly.

[@justanotherguy1794]

@@msolomonii9825 No more euphemisms, similes, metonymies, and metaphors. Something (i.e., capitalism) that is literally everything can't be like anything else. It's capitalism; that's enough.

[@justanotherguy1794]

@@msolomonii9825 Actually, I'm wrong, too: capitalism is also the reason people GET cancer.

[@thomasjones3143]

The actual problem is that this is neither anti-capitalist *nor* investing. Rather, true anticapitalist investing would invest in the workers firm --- a *singular* firm controlled and owned by workers and managed by the workers party.

[@rivera229]

Hell donating to a union is a more worthy investment than whatever these rich dweebs think, and most unions are nowhere near as radical as they were back in the 30's and 40's.

[@thomasjones3143]

@@rivera229 I agree, however the unions won't do it alone --- we do need to think of a way to build the worker's firm as opposed to the unions which are more like a mote of worker's state (i.e. a piece of worker's state).

[@rivera229]

@@thomasjones3143 Of course, I am just making a point. But I think what we need, that I noticed not enough leftists are concluding, is the need for our own party. A party of the workers, by the workers, for the workers. There is no other way, we need a party that represents us.

[@thomasjones3143]

@@rivera229 I agree we need a party but I think it gets twisted --- to do politics we need to do economics, to do economics we will have to do politics, aiming right at party means you aim for social democratic solutions like trying to use the state to seize the means of production (which never works out), instead we need a place into which to seize the means of production and we need to make use of all possible means of seizing it (including boring normal market operations, along with political seizure, direct action, and convincing the bourgeois to hand it over as well --- the problem with what Jen Pan is talking about is that there is no such place right now so the `anti-capitalist investors' are doing bullshit. But the correct solution isn't purely negative (this is bullshit) but rather to say what they would be doing if they are serious --- if we're lucky some of them might actually do it.

[@Bisquick]

@@rivera229 What you don't want UnionCoin (tm) (r) (c)?! It's only backed by AI (definitely a real thing and not a mechanical turk type situation to abstract opaque yet obviously solely profit maximizing algorithms into the unaccountable plausible-deniability ether of "natural" and therefore objectively "correct" processes of 1s and 0s, we swear, who even said that, get outta hereeeee) and the most complex and therefore definitely good technology in sustaining a non-fungible future that is cool and good and not common ruin. I mean it's not just a glorified digital ledger that generates revenue based purely on speculative exchange value masquerading as precisely the opposite of that explicit usury, who even said that?! In fact, _YOU're_ that actually, so... but uh...if you could invest in UnionCoin (tm) (r) (c) we'll get this whole socialism thing making not only sense but _cents_ ...like money, you see...next stop: mars unions! There's definitely a future in this enormous societal hole we've dug, and all we have to do is dig more furiously than ever! alright sorry, think I've sufficiently exhausted this "joke" lol...

[@firebreathingllama]

Love watching Capitalist Realism occur in real time.

[@JAndersonGhost0326]

It goes without saying that the world we want to live in as Leftists looks dramatically different from the world that actually exists. In order to get to that world, we don't have the luxury of idealogical purity. Anti-capitalist investing sounds like a pragmatic way of depriving traditional investors of at least some amount of capital that would otherwise be used to reinforce their already entrenched position in society. How poetic it would be to use the tools of Capitalists to break capitalism. After all, everything is for sale.

[@msolomonii9825]

the simple clear essence of necrotic stage capitalism, everything is "monetized" everything is for sale.

[@kimmyp3275]

Thank you Jen! Another based take! Philanthropy is always doing the opposite of their mission statement by creating excuses for the wealthy class.

[@colinbruceanthes7732]

Excellent points, though I should add that donating fortunes as capital for worker cooperatives could actually change things. The few million pumped into NYC's Worker Cooperative Development Initiative, for instance, has helped start about 150 new worker coops permanently controlled by their workers.

[@skulldaggery_20K9]

Go off Jen. Great piece.

[@sail2byzantium]

Thank you, Jen. First time I've heard of this. But your critique resonates very well.

[@0211brucetube]

Agree with almost all of this except for the solution or the alternative' to capitalism being social democracy. it isn't an alternative to capitalism, it is just another form of it. Revolution not reform.

[@therealspeedwagon1451]

Revolution should be the absolute last resort to something. Reforms should be made and attempted. I also have no sympathy towards totalitarian red fascists dictatorships unlike you. You call yourself the harbinger of freedom and democracy yet totalitarian dictatorships like Stalin and Mao are just as bad, if not even worse, than the capitalist systems they tried to replace.

[@chidorirasenganz]

Nah reform all the way. Revolution has produced nothing but state capitalism

[@PesteNegro]

It was a good video but it also failed on not pointing out a viable solution to some cases: turning organisations into co-ops. I think I watched here in Jacobin an episode on a guitar factory that was going to become a co-op 'cause the owners didn't have any heir interested in keeping it alive, so they began to transfer the power to the workers so it would still live after they pass. It's funny because this alternative also tackles the competition issue, where when one leaves another comes in and replace it, so, I think it's a viable option to really give always power.

[@chazdomingo475]

You have to be skeptical of the capitalists generosity. In almost every case they will drain the company of assets before transferring ownership to the employees. Then the workers are left with nothing but the debts of the capitalists and a company that has been hollowed out and doomed to fail.

[@Bisquick]

Is it Taylor guitars you're thinking of? Notoriously good (and expensive lol, but hey quality means paying for that surplus value normally stolen) geets I will add!

[@andrearovenski]

yes, we need to abolish money, but until that happens, i'd rather have people send money to the poor than just hoarding

[@chazdomingo475]

I mean that's great and all but it's not actually going to happen. And that is her point.

[@therealspeedwagon1451]

@@chazdomingo475 yeah I agree. I think money is far too entrenched in society that it can just be done away with. I think that the money we know of can be abolished, but there has to be something in its place whether that’s a share of food or simply favors that are given and taken.

[@andrearovenski]

@Frank Lee Dontcare wut

[@andrearovenski]

@@chazdomingo475 so you're saying it's impossible to give poor people money? lol

[@chazdomingo475]

@@andrearovenski It is for the rich. Or they wouldn't be fucking rich. This is capitalism 101.

[@joshuabauman3209]

Would a better model be using personal wealth to fund co-op startups? Zero interest loans or straight up gifts.

[@smileyp4535]

God I hope the next 10-15 are enough to spread class consciousness and get real change while the American empire falls

[@samuelrosander1048]

I'm sure someone could invest in communities while promoting democracy and social justice. They would have to give control over how the funds are used to the communities, with the stipulation that they decide democratically, and maybe some other stuff...but I don't see that happening. People with money would probably rather feel like a savior to soothe their conscience than find ways to give communities the freedom to do it themselves with their help. That's just an idea, not a surefire method. I'm largely ignorant on how the wealthy can help. It would be great if Jen would offer some alternatives, rather than only criticizing what rich people do. Or if she or someone else has done a piece on it, reference that work. For those of us who haven't spent a lot of time thinking about this particular aspect of capitalism, it would be very helpful. Good video, anyway.

[@ashleyyyy8833]

The underlying assumption of this critique is that all anti-capitalist investing is done by rich people. I'm not rich, and I would like to retire one day. A regular savings account will never allow that, and quite frankly my choice of where I invest probably won't either, but I don't have any other options. So while I'm waiting for the revolution, I'll be investing my measly $100 a month in hopes that It will one day add up to something to live off of in retirement.

[@jd-yo2is]

this critique is literally just complaining about the rich because they're rich. either she has absolutely no idea how basic economics works, or the only acceptable thing to her would be them just giving away all their money (but not writing it off lmao)

[@justanotherguy1794]

"So while I'm waiting for the revolution, I'll be investing my measly $100 a month in hopes that It will one day add up to something to live off of in retirement." AH, you're a liberal, which means that when all your waiting "pays off" and the revolution "comes," you won't want it.

[@jd-yo2is]

@@justanotherguy1794 lol there’s always gotta be at least one of you

[@jd-yo2is]

@@justanotherguy1794 I think you need to read more theory

[@justanotherguy1794]

@@jd-yo2is Right.

[@manishdyall4779]

Here's an idea for 'anti capitalist' capitalism: invest to promote worker owned co-ops, like Mondragon Corporation. that and paying everyone to invest, if only because everyone will benefit from stock market going up.

[@petithor]

I CANT BELIEVE HOW RAW YOU SPITTIN

[@stephendaley266]

This is the ethical conundrum that all leftists must face. We live and work in a Capitalist system. In order to provide for our own old age, we are forced to either participate in investment and rent-seeking or face poverty in old age. I don't plan to take a vow of poverty. Anticapitalist investing would mean putting your money into forming a commune of some kind. What if we could buy up enough land to form a small city where private property was abolished and the entire enterprise was run as a non-profit by and for the benefit of the residents?

[@Twosheets]

The hippies tried it and eventually realized the flaws in their ways. Living off grid is harder than having Uber eats deliver food

[@matthewriley5819]

That would just be LARP. Capitalism is not a lifestyle choice.

[@justanotherguy1794]

The class war is a battle for power, not an "ethical conundrum that all leftists must face:" that's bourgeois BS; another term for it is "false consciousness." And since you're probably not doing anything anyway in the fight against capitalism, but are more than likely (if unwittingly) waging it from the other side with your "ethical" investment ideologies, what the hell does it matter to any of us what you do in your retirement? NB: you're not a leftist, SD. Surprise.

[@naturallaw1733]

having a Different Economic System is thee Only way....

[@hitoshijohnson]

Blackwater would come in and deal with us.

[@Ianpact]

Thank you, Jen.

[@Kryojenix]

Valuable video well articulated. Thanks!

[@kwabena04]

These comments reveal the primarily liberal constituency of Jacobin

[@barbarasmith6005]

You can't amelilorate capitalism by some rich giving up some of their wealth. They would have to also give up how that wealth was created, i.e., the exploitation of labor and natural resources. Which they, of course, they won't do.

[@Draxtor]

Spot on!

[@Bisquick]

1:50 Just a "fun" fact regarding one root of these "philanthropy" origins which I found particularly insane, Carnegie and his rich -asshole sociopath- friends in the South Fork Fishing and Hunting Club constructed an enormous private lake to...idk, go fishing in without any possibility of running into those pesky poor people or something...and shortly after constructing this dammed (South Fork Dam if I recall) secluded artificial lake in standard corner-cutting capitalist fashion, shock of all shocks, it preceded to break open and unleash 14.55 _million_ cubic meters of water, with a volumetric flow rate that temporarily equaled the average flow rate of the Mississippi River. The flood killed 2,209 people and accounted for $17 million of damage (about $534 million in 2022 money - talk about inflation, thanks wikipedia lol) barely less than 9/11... But of course, this catalyzed substantial "philanthropic" media/legal ventures to both cover this all up (claiming of course that this event was merely an "act of god" and could not be attributed to the deeds of man...despite the South Fork Fishing and Hunting Club being directly responsible for aforementioned corner-cutting that allowed heavy rainfall to rupture it, quickly remedied by imposing some good 'ol regulatory capture on the investigation) and extend the most minimal and entirely self-serving effort to assist rebuilding the aftermath, Carnegie building them a brand new library, aw how nice! Actually here if anyone cares for some of the details of all that, from wikipedia: _The ASCE committee completed their investigation report on January 15, 1890, but its final report was sealed and not shared with other ASCE members or the public.[18] At ASCE's annual convention in June 1890, committee member Max Becker was quoted as saying, “We will hardly [publish our investigation] report this session, unless pressed to do so, as we do not want to become involved in any litigation.”[18] Although many ASCE members clamored for the report, it was not published in the society's transactions until two years after the disaster, in June 1891.[19] William Shinn, a former partner of industrialist Andrew Carnegie, became the new president of ASCE in January 1890. He gave the investigation report to outgoing Becker to decide when to release it to the public. Becker kept it under wraps until the time of ASCE's convention in Chattanooga, Tennessee, in 1891.[20] The long-awaited report was presented at that meeting by James Francis. The other three investigators, William Worthen, Alphonse Fteley, and Max Becker, did not attend._ _In their final report,[19] the ASCE committee concluded the dam would have failed even if it had been maintained within the original design specifications, i.e., with a higher embankment crest and with five large discharge pipes at the dam's base. This claim has since been challenged.[3] A hydraulic analysis published in 2016 confirmed that the changes made to the dam by the South Fork Fishing and Hunting Club severely reduced its ability to withstand major storms.[3] Lowering the dam by as much as 3 feet (0.91 m) and failing to replace the discharge pipes at its base cut the dam's safe discharge capacity in half.[3] This fatal lowering of the dam greatly reduced the capacity of the main spillway and virtually eliminated the action of an emergency spillway on the western abutment. Walter Frank first documented the presence of that emergency spillway in a 1988 ASCE publication.[9] Its existence is supported by topographic data from 1889[19] which shows the western abutment to be about one foot lower than the crest of the dam remnants, even after the dam had previously been lowered as much as three feet by the South Fork Club.[3] Adding the width of the emergency spillway to that of the main spillway yielded the total width of spillway capacity that had been specified in the 1847 design of William Morris, a state engineer._ Oh yeah, and this happens _again_ or something too in the 70s, I forget lol...someone can look that up if want (lol?). Anyway, socialism or [continued] barbarism.

[@iLLsicilian]

I’m in Reno. I could use a cool million for the people! 🙄

[@philliphessel6788]

A more serious approach would be to make a grant (or a flat, non-compounded loan, if you truly need a return) to start a worker-owned firm. Do that in an extremely impoverished neighborhood, with the aim of also turning renters into homeowners and setting up locally controlled services for childcare, education, health care, and whatever else you can. This need not be instead of advocating for higher-level public enterprises funded with increased taxes on the elite. You can do both at once!

[@pgohearn]

Bingo, well said fosho!

[@himanshisharma6418]

So what can someone, who was born into wealth (which isn't a choice by the way) do? What can they do to minimize this gap? It seems there are only wrong answers to this question.

[@himanshisharma6418]

This comment is directed at other viewers as well, its a genuine plea to seek an answer.

[@bunnyboops8875]

You're talking about philanthropy, not investing. I'm working class, not rich, and looking to save and invest for my future without lining the pockets of billionaires who are actively destroying everything. And classifying people who want to pursue reparations as rich kids with guilt is not helping anyone.

[@TomS-ce8hi]

Another angle to come at 'anti-capitalist investing' could be GME/Superstonk which, on the one hand is about market reform, but on the other is more radically about equity and investing to challenge corporate power, potentially blowing up a corrupt Wall St

[@justanotherguy1794]

"Equity" IS corporate power; you mean "equality," which is NOT about investing. All of that means you can't invest to "challenge" corporate power. That's the point of this piece. You should watch it again.

[@zdlax]

DSA should start a hedge fund. I joke, but it would be nice to crowdsource a social welfare fund. Almost like collective ownership of the means of production.

[@wildernessisland2573]

Would love to know what would make one disparage mutual aid

[@youwhohear]

Jacobin did a show on this: kzbin.info/www/bejne/oWPJkGCdjdSiprs . The short version is that mutual aid can be a useful tool, but there has been a group on the left which believes mutual aid is the only way and nothing good can ever come from organized government. whereas the jacobin commentators think mutual aid is nice but is difficult to scale up to reach everyone, particularly when all the resources are concentrated in the super elite/big business. so, we can share this can of beans with each other all we want, but it probably won't be enough to feed the whole neighborhood. the jacobin commentators believe we need to socialize the resources and democratize the power on a larger scale. mutual aid seems limited in its potential in this sense.

[@jd-yo2is]

@@youwhohear pretty sure this is common sense

[@naturallaw1733]

@@youwhohear I think Mutual Aid is designed to be more Local Community oriented. and as more Communities develop in this way, the Larger the scale can be. but I believe it's still a Mostly rooted Local thing as in Neighborhoods and Towns connected in some way. 👍

[@episdosas9949]

Small minded people cant see outside the box. Everyone is investing in something. Dont support the vulture capitalist. Invest in community.

[@noheroespublishing1907]

Tiflis... Tiflis ☭

[@shoshanakirya-ziraba8216]

This critique is based on a false premise. The actual public doesn't get to directly decide the direction of tax revenue. There is not one among us who would actually select the resource allocation that the government has. PROGRESS NOT PERFECTION

[@gweegoop7781]

yeah but what if the philanthropists have woke bumper stickers???????

[@tytraulich4987]

I too wonder how to invest money as more of a socialist.

[@rebeccachambers4701]

Not necessarily true I've been Arizona iced tea has been a dollar for a while so I mean they're probably still exploitative but just nowhere as exploitative has all these other places that have doubled their prices

[@phillipwombacher9635]

ya they still get the wall tho

[@FishMonger849]

That’s a thing?

[@richarddeese1991]

Thanks. "Racial capitalism"?? I'm pretty sure capitalism's already plenty 'racial' in all the wrong ways. This won't fix it. It sounds more like a nice little attempt at deflecting real anti-capitalist sentiment to me. tavi.

[@jimmyjimmy5574]

This is why capitalism will always win

[@jd-yo2is]

Wow this is a poor critique. You are complaining about people investing their money that relatively agree with your political opinions..For literally no reason other then ‘capitalists’ and ‘capitalism’ are bad… So you want them to leave their money in a bank so the ‘elites’ invest it instead? Or just not make money at all? Then you pivot to donating to charity and complain about that…. Because our current (sometimes Republican) government is soooo much better at distributing wealth than select charities, huh? Yay more money for war and fraudulent grants…. This is prime pointlessly contrarian ‘leftism’ right here.

[@shawn8847]

Agreed. If rich people want to invest in left projects, take the money.

[@justanotherguy1794]

Maybe she assumed you'd read a book.

[@jd-yo2is]

@@justanotherguy1794 the holy Das Kapital?

[@naturallaw1733]

"For literally no reason other then ‘capitalists’ and ‘capitalism’ are bad…" I'm sorry but isn't that the Best reason there is?? 🤷‍♀

[@naturallaw1733]

@@shawn8847 I think her point was that none if this will Really make a difference so...

[@damanisouza859]

ofcourse she has blue hair and pronouns

[@LyricalTampon]

You don't use pronouns?!

[@damanisouza859]

@@LyricalTampon He/Him/Himself with capital letters implying me being God

[@naturallaw1733]

I go by It/Thing/PoopieHead because I'm bored.👽