Apparently We're ALL Wrong About Damage in Diablo 4 | Disproving this Myth Once and For All!

[@MacroBioBoi]

The video's creator has since removed their video and put up a new response with an apology. Kudos to them, I've been in a similar situation and it can be rough when something you believed, turned out to be wrong.

[@3jfisher]

props to both of you. if i hadn't already subbed, i'd sub on the basis of the tenor of this exchange.

[@Studycase3000]

This is how we find REAL truth, as in any scientific/math discussion. We check, ,check again and always keep our eyes and minds open. Well done guys. edit: got a sub from me

[@actellimQT]

Kudos for the (mostly) mature approach! Good way to handle a disagreement!

[@carbunclegirl]

New ARPG players actually believing character sheets, a tale as old as time.

[@Noneofyabusinessuqy]

Character sheets should not be in the game if it’s a blatant lie. Blizzard seems to be full of scumbags. Time to drain that swamp.

[@christophluger793]

Like Attack power. It just takes into consideration what's permanent and say in the tooltip it doesn't include all the situational stuff like lots of glyphs. And explicitly tell people it's just a very crude way of showing the real power.

[@3jfisher]

i couldn't understand why all this stuff was going wrong for me even in D3 until i realized, oooohhh, the character sheet is bullsh*t! it didn't make me a good player, but i got a LOT more successful in the game.

[@esvban]

that guy only plays sorc, and since sorc is bugged and he relies on tooltip, (and I think he only tested the broken sorc vuln damage) he got baited... i cant believe he went so far to say everyone else was wrong, though. Ton of people on reddit/forums still believe this local damage bucket, too, for stuff like devouring blaze. I get downvoted all the time trying to correct people.

[@eagleotto2527]

Why is vulnerable damage broken just for sorcs, that's what's confusing to me

[@esvban]

@@eagleotto2527 because the class been neglected both in balance and bug fixes. None of the devs play sorc, and if you watch the campfire chats, they are "terrified" (their words) of buffing sorc.

[@nickrobinson5715]

​@@esvban sorc has no vulnerable damage and yet clears pit just fine. I'd be scared too

[@esvban]

@@nickrobinson5715 clears 20 tiers lower and takes twice as long than everyone else is fine, sure.

[@tek512]

@@nickrobinson5715 I don't know that I'd call it clearing pits just fine. It is lagging behind everybody else. Sorc is basically a burning dumpster being carried out to sea by flood waters.

[@tek512]

Pretty sure I'd rather somebody crack the code for how to get stygian stones to fucking drop.

[@MacroBioBoi]

hard agree

[@flowqi212]

Last time I found a stone was when I cleared Pit 66 during sundown in exactly 6:66min 🤔

[@tek512]

@@flowqi212 Last time I found one was from Iron Wolves rep. >_>

[@flowqi212]

@tek512 there was one guy on Reddit who did 500h Pit and if I remember correctly I think he got 6 stygian stones 🙈. I found 2 or 3 in the Pit in the entire span of season 4 so far. Maybe the patch will fix it today ^^.

[@Lexxsy]

@@flowqi212 how do you get 66 seconds? Wouldn't that just be 7.06min?

[@gasman555]

I'm glad you covered and clarified this, AND that you were not sarcastic. I think that guy was sincere in making a PSA, however, it was incorrect.

[@tylerschroerlucke4066]

This video reminds me of something that was said during a Lean Six Sigma Green Belt class I was taking. "In God we trust, everyone else, bring your data". And that's what you do, you bring the data so you can show your work. It's awesome and I appreciate it. Keep up the good work.

[@Dr-Mal-Practice]

Solid video Mac, I've been following for a while and when I started I realized something about you quickly. You'd rather be wrong and closer to the truth when you find out than sit on ego. It's a great trait to have and I'm grateful for you continuing to help abolish ignorance about dmg and our class mechs. Stay encouraged!

[@BlackDaiquiri]

this is what the abject abyssal misery that is trying to play a sorc this season does to a mfer

[@overnow]

Thanks for the hard math, now my dumb ass is going to go and hold the A button to go brrrrrrrrrrrr 😎😂

[@MacroBioBoi]

Core skills goes BRRRR

[@sickofitall8486]

This is just my opinion, but the math isn't hard at all. It's order of operations, multiplication and addition. Stuff I'm sure we all learned at a young age... All that said, the hard part is figuring out the goddamn formula! The game doesn't do much at all to explain to the player how the different stats and affixes interact with each other, so just like you, I just use guides instead of building my own spreadsheets to calculate changes in dmg and dmg mitigation. It's been half my lifetime since I was in engineering school, but playing this game makes me feel like an idiot sometimes because on the rare occasion I try to calculate if an item is an upgrade or not, I have no idea I'm doing the right calculation. I know the result of my equation is accurate based on the numbers I input, but have no idea if my equation is the correct one.

[@Orthus100]

I spent far too long staring at Formula 2 trying to understand what thought process created that math.

[@lymanmusic3756]

Crit bonus damage: 50% multiplicative, and then all other crit bonus damage is "additive", going into the "additive pool". This is what I got from having watched your video breaking down how damage is calculated. So the "Diff" should naturally be higher than 1.5, as long as you have additional "additive" crit bonus damage (which you have from the Essence glyph).

[@MathieuPilot]

Right, he should have shown the numbers with some bonus critical damage to prove the point.

[@stevewiley3832]

Yeah I feel the take away here is crit is only good for 50% no matter how high you have, but that doesn’t seem right. I must have misunderstood something.

[@Doggettxx]

@@stevewiley3832 That's correct, there's no point in taking crit damage, they changed this awhile ago when they did the damage rework. Because everyone was focusing on crit/vuln damage too much. So now it's just a flat 50% multiplier if you crit and the damage just gets added to the normal bucket when you crit, so basically now it's just conditional damage.

[@maxmustermann7211]

Blizzard is to blame, wrong character sheets & no dps meter...

[@Cola_77]

and no damage log - so we could identify how damage works and can find bugs easily (or Blizzard can)

[@ДимитърПоптолев]

OK but we see, if we had DPS meters people would just copy the best builds instead of doing what they do now - copy the best builds . /s

[@christophluger793]

I don't like the idea to have a dps meter in general but in the training grounds it would be great. Sometimes you just can't tell if it's stronger or weaker when you change something.

[@axel1978]

“Caus everything in this game is bugged” 💀

[@ssaalleeeemm]

Saw this guys video by chance and I thought no way was his calculations correct. Thanks for making it clear

[@MsharyPersonal]

Serious question: Why don't the devs literally just publish how they code the calculations for damage? Literally just publish those formulas. Doesn't seem right that we have to do all this lab work to reverse engineer the mechanics.

[@nobody-in5yp]

They dont know themself. Raxxanterax made a vid in S2 where Blizz explained how their numbers work. Watch that Video and you understand EVERYTHING about Blizz and their numbersgame.... ☠️😂

[@alopradocai]

Dude, it's Microsoft, really you questioning this?

[@subzero308]

​@@alopradocaismh Microsoft isnt the games developer...

[@tiklmesilly]

I mean maybe I missed something but when they changed crit dmg to no longer be a multiplier this is exactly how they said it worked. The crit dmg tool tip in the game is just wrong

[@Claude-Vanlalhruaia]

This is one of the stranger way on how they add/multiplicate critical damage multiplier. The base x50% damage is flat damage additive value whose value depends on your base damage (combination of all your damage both additive and multiplicative) which basically means your inherent critical damage multipliiier = base damage x 1.5, easily understandable. There are lotf of games which use inherent critical damage multiplier and usually at 50% but any other additional critical damage multiplier bonus are added directly from 50%, say I have 80% additional critical damage that would means 50+80= 130% critical damage multiplier. What I do not understand is when you have additional critical damage multiplier instead of adding that to the base 50%, it is multiplied with 1.5 and then the base 50% is added. For example say I have 80% additional critical damage modifier from other sources, seemingly my total critical damage multiplier should be 50+80 = 130% but instead its (80x1.5)+50= 120+50, = 170%. Where did the 1.5 multiplier comes from? Why did they add that extra multiplier? Is it to buff damage? Is the tooltip wrong? I guess only the developer could answer.

[@manfredhoudek2385]

This is what I learnt on tempering and with a mind to play alts. Ignore class specific skill damage multipliers. Waste of money and usually have up to 5-6 stats to roll on to get that one particular stat you want, so many bricked items. I roll my damage multipliers on Offensive "Natural" there are only 4 possible outcomes, each beneficial to nearly all classes. Two specific to wether you play melee or ranged. These will stack on weapons, gloves and jewellery. They will work on any of your damage output skills. Most of us are playing 2-4 damage skills. They are a little bit less than the class skill specific ones, but are far more versatile.

[@Inhuman_v3]

I'm pretty new to Diablo, only first started playing when it came to gamepass and I've not played a Diablo before this. I don't know the shortest way to explain the question(s) I currently have that puzzle me the most but I will try my best and apologies in advance for a very large comment lol. The thing that has plagued me the most currently is a combination of 2 things. Those being attack power and damage numbers (mainly which is better out of outright "+damage" vs "+damage to close) but in general I'm seeking clarification and this video so far is the only one that helped even remotely. I see the discourse that it's hard to trust what you see in game etc etc, but I'm currently playing Barb and I'm in the 70s level wise, specifically the bash/cleave build and to start my actual line of questioning.....say for example you temper a weapon, and you obviously can get either raw damage added or damage to close and the range for damage to close is much higher, yet damage to close doesn't show my attack power go up or my bash skill numbers when I inspect my character, and raw damage makes both go up. Does that mean damage vs close is useless? Is the game's coding for things just weird and bad that way? Which one is better? Etc, etc...heavily appreciate anyone who took the time to read and/or respond to this and sorry again for wall-o-text

[@MacroBioBoi]

Attack power is not real and doesn't actually relate to any damage calculation in the game. You can completely ignore it and shouldnt use it to measure if a build is stronger. All additive damage is equally valuable, you just need to determine which you can apply the most often and get the highest number of that. If you have 50% chance to crit you basically only get 50% of +crit damage on gear. Etc etc.

[@Inhuman_v3]

@@MacroBioBoi very good to know, thank you for reading and replying! It's been a little confusing and frustrating as I get further toward the end game and trying to really figure out what is good or at least how to optimize etc

[@SamuelBrady-n1d]

I say this often but thank you again for the objectivity Macro! I’m playing your blight build and it’s still my favourite necro playstyle since S2. Edit: been testing your remark on damage scaling with DOT. I’m testing specifically how aspects that describe flat damage gain (25% increased damage with a shield for example). It’s bugged but if it’s there and it works why not use it. I wish the devs could get all classes to perform as intended.

[@RPCauldron]

you, Sir, have indeed deserved my following. I love maths almost as much as I love collected data to scientifically support claims.

[@L00TxGoblin]

I may have misunderstood his video as I thought the point he was actually trying to make was not that multiplicative damage for critical damage and vulnerable does not exceed the 50% and 20%, but more that if heavily invested into multiplicative specific damage like vulnerable then when picking vulnerable damage it results in the highest form of additive damage only if your other passive and aspects and paragon nodes give a high enough multiplier

[@MacroBioBoi]

Neither of those statements are true, regardless. If you crit, you increase your total damage by a final 1.5 multiplier and you add your crit additive to your additive bucket. Their video posits that this is wrong.

[@MacroBioBoi]

@goldsharkwow1231 neither is better, it just depends on what you apply the most often, and any build that doesn't do DoT damage wants to apply crit and vuln

[@zeldyrrolorin9962]

Probably too late for you to read a comment but anyway. Sorcs are still seeing weirdness with vuln multipliers like Frigid Fate legendary node and Storm Swell aspect. Both of these indicate a 30%[x] but dummy testing shows they are closer to half that or 15%[x]. Pezradar at Blizzard said the team tested and everything is working as intended but testing shows it clearly is not. Lurkin has been trying to explain to the community but no one has solved what is going on. Do you have any thoughts?

[@MacroBioBoi]

My understanding is northwar has also tested things and found bugs. I'm not a sorc player though.

[@blakerosenbrook]

Thanks for clearing up this confusion. I am looking forward to your videos about the Aphotic and DoT damage bugs!

[@Brii.Z]

This kinda sheds a light on why sorc (or my sorc anyway) damage doesn't seem to be where it should be. I have 560% crit damage and 430%vulnerable damage with a frozen orb build. Everything in the screen is always vulnerable and with a crit chance of 40% crits are often landed; however, the damage seems extremely low for those numbers. From what I gather is, instead of stacking crit and vulnerable to this degree, perhaps it's better to start looking at all damage, damage to close, frozen, distant etc. or even cold damage.

[@Deffine]

Devs said there are only one bucket of additive increased damage. Everything else with X% is a stand alone multiplier if conditions are met. They should improve the descriptions though. A guy i talked with thought X% increased damage while critting was additive with critical damage. Its not. The condition is that you need to crit, but it actually have nothing to with critting. Its a stand alone multiplier that activate if you happen to crit.

[@dobrivalov1613]

This is all good and all but what about the rumors that some of Sorc's aspects and glyphs aren't working properly, resulting in lower damage than intended? Is it true? Would love you to make a video testing it and showing your conclusion.

[@ChristopherBohman]

Hey thanks for doing the testing and the math. You are really really helping and i just want to let you know i appreciate your work. One question... How do we know that the numbers which show on the screen are the actual damage don't to the enemy?

[@MacroBioBoi]

We don't but there's no reason to believe otherwise. Also it wouldn't effect anything. I see this concept bubbling up and you just have to ask the question "If it's not the real number, but we all are the same wrong number, can I change that?" And you realize it is of no consequence.

[@bibibibibu1234]

I just have two questions if it's not a problem. I'm sure you have answered this already, but please bear with me! Thanks in advance if you have the time to answer. 1) It seems like all multiplicative ("x") damage is added together and used as a single separate multiplier, is that true? So having 2 50% pieces of multiplicative damage will give me 2x damage, not 2.25? This shouldn't change too much in terms of optimization, as the "multiplicative bucket" (a bit of a contradiction in terms imo) is always relatively small compared to the additive one, so it doesn't really make sense to choose an additive multiplier over a multiplicative one, but this means that getting an aspect that makes your gameplay more comfortable instead of just adding 20% to a bucket that already has, say, 150%, is not that big of a hit. 2) For critical and vulnerable, they get a 1.5 and 1.2 multiplier, and then the number I see on the character sheet gets decreased by 50% and 20% respectively and added to the additive bucket, this 50% doesn't get added twice, right? (Not really that important, just to be sure.)

[@MacroBioBoi]

1. Not at all. They're all new multipliers. 2. No. You get the respective multiplier and the number at the bottom of the tooltip "Critical strike damage from items and Paragon" gets added to your additive bucket.

[@bibibibibu1234]

@@MacroBioBoi Thank you!

[@pandorath2287]

Can you break it down to stupid terms for me. Lets pretend i have 100% crit chance and i am always close. If i had to choose between identical rolls of lets say 100% crit damage, close damage or just damage, so on so forth for any other conditional damage. The output would be the same as long as the condition is met? Other than bugs, of course. Reason I ask is because it's difficult for me to figure out in the game, and i see things like heavy-handed passive on barb (15%x crit damage) or grandfather inflate the crit damage on stat sheet. Then you have things like blood rage, inner calm, or any other effect that states it increases damage by 0x inflates your all damage number on stat sheet. Are these inflated numbers accurate in that adding 100% additive when i am under the effect of something that is a 30%x does indeed add more than the 100%? I hope all that makes sense. I am trying to min max my gear and just really curious about how all the math works. I know the attack power is a bait. Is it just as simple as choose which ever additive roll is the highest as long as i can met that condition or do these multipliers matter when stacking additive damage. Thank you in advance.

[@MacroBioBoi]

Yes, if you have 100% uptime of the mechanic in question, you get 100% of the damage it offers, so you should always pick the biggest number.

[@Roiddz]

Critting is a 1.5 modifier but does the incorrectly modified tooltip damage actually add that inflated number?

[@MacroBioBoi]

Nope.

[@lewishamilton3557]

Yes. Subscribed, and liked video. I actually watched the video before it was taken down. Mind blown. Great work my man.

[@samtarioss]

well, what the formula is then? lets say i have 400% all dmg and 300% crit dmg and i have 30%(x) crit dmg from druid boons and 30%(x) from envenom, my crit chance is lets say 60%, is better stack +100% crit dmg or +100% all dmg, are we sure that our aditive crit dmg bonus is not yet alone multiplied by our %(x) crit multipliers? u havent tested it in the video..

[@samtarioss]

i tested and calculated it - >if i have 500% all dmg and 100% crit dmg, i do like 3x crit dmg with 30% evenom and 30% crit dmg boon, if i add crit dmg stat to 270% i do like 3,6x crit, it doesnt make sense, im increasing my aditive dmg percents in crits by 30% percent and actual dmg in crit is higher only by 20%

[@kennystanley7941]

So what is better on necromancer

[@Eas_Planeswalker]

Could you explain why adding 50% crit damage increases my crit damage by 75% on the maxroll planner? Is that the generic 50% being applied?

[@MacroBioBoi]

The character stat sheet multiplies your crit damage by your available crit multipliers.

[@iddqdgodmode]

so adding crit damage is better on gear than +damage?

[@DortyDiana]

Im still confused, what would be a better for gear, +90% flat damage or +90%crit damage

[@MacroBioBoi]

If you have 100% chance to crit, they're the same thing.

[@bumbixp]

If the earth is round then how come critical strike damage is like this?

[@MacroBioBoi]

XD

[@Alittlebunyrabit]

I honestly find it funny that anyone would think crit damage would work other than how you've described it. Crit damage is like... always applied as a final multiplier in every single game with crit damage scaling. Maybe I've played too many RPGs/gachas but this is so intuitive to me I'm shocked that anyone would expect otherwise.

[@Comalv]

The things that really perplexed me in the other video (which I commented) are a lack of testing (everyone can say "oh believe me I've tested this stuff) and the fact that avoiding people from using ONLY Vuln Damage or ONLY Crit Damage on every slot was exactly the reason why Blizzard changed the calculations before S3. Thanks for providing proof

[@TheWooly]

So is Grandfather similar? Does it affect your crit dmg bonuses at all or is it just a straight 2x dmg multiplier when you crit?

[@MacroBioBoi]

Grandfather says if you crit, gain a 2x multiplier.

[@turbo012]

Thank you for testing and explanation. Can you clarify how they changed the vulnerable damage calculation couple seasons ago? Some top players complained that stack vulnerable damage is bad mechanic so blizzard changed but not exactly sure how it changed.

[@MacroBioBoi]

The exact same as critical strike damage.

[@MoONSHO7]

I was always calculating crit as 550% Crit Damage (BaseDamage + (BaseDamage * (CritDamage - 50)/100))) * 1.5 (100 + (100 * 5)) * 1.5 CritDamage could be the additive damage bucket, this example is just for crit only though So 100 base damage with 550% crit = 900 Damage but kinda makes sense that you naturally get 50% crit, so all the crit damage you get is just additive on top so it turns into: (BaseDamage + (BaseDamage * (CritDamage/100))) * 1.5 (100 + (100*5.5))*1.5 = 925 damage

[@seanyewest]

You made this shit way too complicated brother. Say 100 base damage. Normal hit = 100 damage. Base crit damage (as in 0 added crit damage from gear 0 paragon) = a 50% damage boost. This means the default effect of a critical strike is 150% damage. 100 base damage with no crit = 100 * 150% = 100 * (150/100) = 150 damage. If you had 550% ADDED crit damage, your TOTAL crit damage would be 550 (added amount) + 50(base "default" amount) = 600%. So your damage would be: 100 * 600% = 100* (600/100) = 600.

[@kevinsims5791]

So if you have +100 additive crit damage, does that damage scale off the actual crit damage dealt or does it scale off the base damage dealt and then its critted?

[@MacroBioBoi]

It's just added to the additive bucket. It doesn't have any special interactions.

[@ponaskompetencija]

base damage + crit

[@dcuoffendinghabits7949]

So what’s a good crit chance and crit dam to be at to push to torment 4? I’m currently at 2300 almost 2400 crit damage and 53%-57% crit chance on my rogue with 252 paragon + 4 glyphs at 60 and 1 at 64.

[@MacroBioBoi]

If you're a crit build, you need 100% crit chance, typically. And for additive damage the answer is more is better, but don't prioritize it over stronger stats. Mostly just from Paragon glyphs and tempering.

[@dcuoffendinghabits7949]

@ so to achieve 100% crit chance you have to get max roles on gear and use a lot of paragon points for intelligence to up your crit chance im assuming? Because right now like I said im at 53.7% crit chance so id need to invest heavily in intelligence within my paragon boards to get closer to 100%.

[@MacroBioBoi]

@@dcuoffendinghabits7949 Dexterity increases Crit Chance, not Intelligence. But yes, that's one of the ways. Heir of Perdition is a strong mythic helmet that grants a ton of Crit Chance as well.

[@dcuoffendinghabits7949]

@ well for rogue intelligence is our crit chance stat and dex is our damage buffin stat. That’s why I was asking about intelligence via paragon board etc because I’m playing rogue.

[@dcuoffendinghabits7949]

@ and I’ll keep an eye out for that helm to drop from torment bosses 👍

[@kaizer-777]

One bit I'm unclear on is the increased critical strike damage modifier. If we're capped at 50% for crit strikes, and the rest of the bonus is additive, why do so many build guides recommend stacking critical strike damage (or even vulnerable damage) instead of just general damage since both of these are situational? Do the higher rolls on these make up for the random chance?

[@SephAZ]

Yes exactly, you go for vulnerable/crit dmg because these builds are able to scale of it very effectively.. The rolls for crit dmg and vuln dmg are higher than the flat dmg ones. If you have a perma Vuln build, then you gain more dmg from getting vuln dmg on your gear instead of flat dmg rolls.. Same goes for Crit builds, Since the crit dmg rolls on gear are higher than the flat %dmg ones, you gain more dps from having the higher crit dmg roll as soon as you reach a crit Threshold. With masterworking, many builds are now reaching 70-85% crit chance easily.

[@kaizer-777]

@@SephAZ Makes sense. Thank you.

[@Thanos5]

What i wanna know is if %damage is better than the main primary stat for classes or if the primary stat is better for dps cause ill see meta builds and look at the affixes on items and itll show dex for rogues or int for sorcs but i noticed i get higher atk power by putting the %damage affix on my gear idk whats right or wrong

[@kevinsims5791]

The attack power in the stat sheet is decieving. I believe its an average. I know for sure that every 10 points in your main stat is a x1% multiplicative scaler to your skills. So 100 dex gives you x10 multiplicative damage boost to your skills.

[@FirstSnowz]

I picked a weird day to come back to D4

[@MacroBioBoi]

XD welcome back Snow!

[@Hades16899]

Is there a video that lays out vuln damage vs crit damage? Some classes can stack one higher than the other, but vuln has a base of 20%. Then you get all that additive damage, but is it just additive on how we think?

[@MacroBioBoi]

There isn't a VS here. The answer is always "Which additive damage can you apply more often".

[@SpeedDemon69]

Thank god you made this video, I'm so frustrated that people just keep spewing this nonsense without actually testing it.

[@Sumowning]

Your info on the damage calculations made me drop Crit dmg, and opt in for more Vuln damage for my Puncture build. But stlll use Crit Chance a source of extra damage, due to the x0.5 global multiplier. It's quite nice. I do have a question, so when getting additional sources of Crit Damage multiplier. Such as say the Rogue's Deadly Ambush legendary node which is x0.22 Crit Dmg to enemies affected by trap skills, does this mean a crit would now multiply by (Base x 0.72) would it be (Base x 0.50) x 0.22) Or would it be (Base x 0.50) + (additive Crit DMG x 0.22)? I assume it's the first one, that it being the same multiplier means it just stacks that.

[@MacroBioBoi]

It's a new multiplier entirely unless otherwise stated.

[@lubosrehounek8760]

So if they're global multipliers does that mean I should not try to e.g. raise my crit dmg from 500 to 550 but rather increase my vulnerable dmg from 0 to 50 assuming all enemies are vulnerable? So generally do not put all your eggs in one basket?

[@MacroBioBoi]

Nope. Put every egg into the basket you apply the most often.

[@Eqnotalent]

So 50% crit dam or 50% damage or 50% vuln dmg or 50% dmg to close… which is the best in the end?

[@MacroBioBoi]

Depends on what you apply the most

[@Eqnotalent]

@@MacroBioBoi If they all apply which is better ? on a normal scenario so if I have 50% crit chance, so 50% crit dmg is technically only 25% dmg increase. 50% dmg and 50% to close is 100% up time. But this is base dmg right ? 50% vuln dmg is technically 60% dmg increase right ?

[@clintdegen]

I would love to know what is better for my non bleed bash barb. I used to roll damage to close enemies, and now I used rogue to replace those rolls with crit damage. I feel a ton weaker now. Is there a reason for that. I do not have damage numbers to prove it though.

[@trev6783]

I know this an old video. But I have a relevant question. Things that "increase critical strike damage X%" for example sacrificing iron golem. Does the increase the additive damage or just simply add that multiplier to the multiplier bucket.. like instead of 1.5, it makes 1.85.? The tool tip shows an increase in additive damage, but you say it lies and the internet seems split on this.

[@MacroBioBoi]

Neither. It's a brand new multiplier.

[@trev6783]

@@MacroBioBoi So it's adding 1.35 to the multiplier bucket, when you crit.

[@MacroBioBoi]

@trev6783 there isn't a multiplier bucket. But yes, it's a new 1.35 multi of your total damage.

[@trev6783]

@@MacroBioBoi So does grandfather work in the same fashion?

[@MacroBioBoi]

@@trev6783 grandfather double your damage if you crit. Nothing more.

[@tootles7622]

Alot of people are wrong about how those vampiric aspects work also. Mostly because they only play one class and those aspects work slightly different with each class

[@OhZordan]

I haven't really kept up with D4 between preseason and season 4, but didn't they announce that they were gonna change the mechanics of crit / vuln to not be (fully) multiplicative?

[@MacroBioBoi]

Yep, seasons ago. The current model is what I show here.

[@piktasniekas8124]

So they couldn't even display correct critical damage sum in character sheet? I always trusted that number as I thought there's no way they could display a simple addition incorrectly...

[@wellingtons32]

Does anyone know if FRENZIED DEAD is even working? The stat page minion AS stays the same even tho like the aspect isn’t working.

[@MacroBioBoi]

Yes it works. Your minions get a buff, you don't gain stats.

[@StuRedman]

Thank you. That character screen is a train wreck. I replaced a ring with +dmg with another with crit chance and crit damage and my "sheet damage" went way down. Little suggestion: if you show calculations in Excel please limit the digits, 23267.28365383 average makes no sense. 23267 would be correct.

[@danper0809g]

So what’s better on a weapon crit damage or flat damage?

[@MacroBioBoi]

Depends on your build. But it's not flat damage, it's generic damage.

[@Oaky]

where can we find your builds?

[@MacroBioBoi]

Maxroll.gg

[@cryofist]

i have a question if you dont mind answering, i been playing and auto attack rogue and i have marksman damage and regular damage modifiers that i can add and idk which one is better cause its hard to tell as im hitting things. im assuming they both go into additive and that either one is fine since im only using marksman skills anyway

[@MacroBioBoi]

Whichever is higher, which you apply more often

[@simaopacheco4529]

I keep having questions. If these are my stats: Dexterity: 701 Vulnerable dmg bonus: 171,20% all damage: 107% weapon dmg ranges: 2554-3830 skill %: 34% The damage if I hit a vulnerble damage is average 8378? weapon base damage x skill % x dexterity x (additive bucket) x vuln 1.2? 3192 x 0.34 x 1.701 x 3.782 x 1.2? 8378 +-?

[@shulehr]

then what, i should throw away my willpower on druid and just get crit damage stats ?

[@mikeiscoo2]

They capped crit damage to 50% as a multiplier and anything above that is just additive, is that correct? Or have I been mislead

[@MacroBioBoi]

If you crit, you deal 50% bonus damage AND all of your additive crit goes into your additive bucket

[@mikeiscoo2]

@@MacroBioBoithank you, I’ll sub for that answer

[@silverclouds7923]

hello macro, thanks for the video, was wondering if you could explain how exactly does the grandfather work. thanks again.

[@MacroBioBoi]

Doubles your damage if you crit.

[@Adanoft]

Where is the video?

[@MacroBioBoi]

They took it down the next day.

[@wellingtons32]

Hey Macro. Does Crit Dmg NOT get inherited to minions? What should be stacked on rings and gloves?

[@MacroBioBoi]

It does

[@wellingtons32]

@@MacroBioBoi so using grasping veins counts to minions CD?

[@MacroBioBoi]

@@wellingtons32 crit chance, yes. They don't get the damage boost.

[@imFluey]

Does this mean you have to change your Maxroll Bone Spirit build?

[@MacroBioBoi]

Not at all.

[@theshadowcult]

The devs said the base vulnerable 20 and the base crit 50 is multiplicative, and the extra vul and crit damage you get would be additive, you should have shown a third set of data afterwards showing your 172 crit damage at work. As now with your video just showing the 50%, it seemingly implies that all the crit damage should be multiplicative, when thats how it used to work, and the devs changed it.

[@Vitalik578]

Does that mean that crit damage additive on gear stats is superb to other additive damage stats cause it is multiplied by 1.5?

[@MacroBioBoi]

No. That's the fallacy I disprove in this video. Your additive damage isn't multiplied by any effect. It's all in the additive bucket. It's just whether or not you activate it's addition to that bucket.

[@ponaskompetencija]

yes it is, just like overpower damage, you will always be able to stack more of these stats, because they are always multiplied by 1.5 at the end. So 1000% of crit dmg will turn into 1500% crit dmg, same with overpower and vulnerable will be only 1200%. So yes, you are correct, it is superb in terms of that.

[@Vitalik578]

@@ponaskompetencija read previous post. It's false. All your damage will multiply by 1.5 after crit. Not only crit additive.

[@ponaskompetencija]

@@Vitalik578 the previous post is false and what you are saying is absolute nonsense

[@ponaskompetencija]

@@Vitalik578 Also, 50% increase on crit or 1.5 how you call it, only happens when you have absolutely no crit damage on your gear

[@Finis.Terrae]

I had 530 vuln dmg ,as well as damagee % on every item possible and 47% crit on my sorc,and my Ice Shards were doing 40 k crits.

[@Elidan1012]

then your base damage sucks and/or lacking other multipliers

[@Iridium31]

To be fair, technically the character sheet display is not incorrect (unless one assumes the value is purely additive... in that case it's the wrong number). It presumably does what it does to display these stats in the sheet as a single value. Critical strike damage, Overpower and Vulnerable all behave in this fashion. In fact, buffs on Necromancer such as Flesh Eater and Scent of Death behave the same way for the All Damage stat while they're active. The picture gets further convoluted when highly specific bonuses like Iron Golem sacrifice on Necromancer are in play. The problem is the game does not do a very good job of communicating this behavior. Context is everything and it's not terribly obvious for all parts of the character sheet display. Incidentally, it easily confuses new players or those unfamiliar it. Through no fault of their own. The easiest approach is to hover over stats in the character sheet and look at values displayed within the tooltip pop-out. Near the bottom of these tooltip pop-outs the game does in fact display the "true" additive % bonus value. Something along the lines of "You get x% of this stat from items and paragon."

[@JackSchitte]

I have a degree in English because my math skills were so low in college so when someone can explain a math problem where I can understand it, I listen intently. I may be an older gamer from the Hippie era, but I am not ignorant. I subscribed at the end of your video and highlighted the bell so I don't miss a thing. Thanks a ton....Jack

[@MacroBioBoi]

Thank you, Jack.

[@CrispyGnoll]

So his base calculation is wrong. But what about for the aspects. Is a 30%[x] increase to your critical strike damage a true 30% multiplier to your total damage. So, base damage x 1.5 x 1.3? Or is that only increasing your crit damage additive value like Grandfather?

[@MacroBioBoi]

Grandfather doesn't "only increase your additive". They're always new global multipliers.

[@Alpha_Kal]

I think Macro mentioned it in some of his other vids... it depends on the class and aspect. In necro for grasping veins, it is a separate multiplier. E.g. Grasping veins provide 50%[x], so it becomes 1.5x of ur dmg if u crit. It doesnt get added into the dmg bucket in a sense.

[@lesdoleague]

Simple question. I saw your old video. And wanted to ask in your opinion is it better to pick damage, or crit damage? Crit damage usually has a 2 to 1 stat distribution. So 100 crit damage or 50 damage. Now because the chance to crit must be build up I feel increasing you damage is better. That is my understanding of your video. I have watched both of yours and realize you used crit as having 100 percent up time so I just want to make sure I understand.

[@MacroBioBoi]

Take your crit chance and multiply it by your crit damage number. If it's bigger than the "Damage" number, it's better to pick crit. If not, it's better to pick "Damage". Ex: 80% chance to crit means you expect to gain 80% of a critical damage bonus. 100 crit damage is worth 80 "Damage".

[@ZytheJR]

Does your last damage video still hold up in season 5? Asking for a friend who doesn't understand damage. Or all of them rather.

[@MacroBioBoi]

Yes

[@ZytheJR]

@@MacroBioBoi awesome! Thanks for the response brother! Thanks for putting it all together@

[@folonrng]

i don't know man. sometimes i feel like the different damage pools in d4 aren't multiplicative with each other like they are in poe

[@jacoballen6269]

Earlier I had my Frozen Orbs Sorc build running 763.5% critical damage. Is that good? Lol 😅

[@Invizable99]

Thx for that, I liked and subscribed, could you please show me or tell me where that training dummy is?

[@MacroBioBoi]

Kyovashad, top right

[@walkcoolboy]

great video, but might be even better to show with/without using the Essence, and see how much improvement given your base damage is much higher than the crit damage. anyway, subscribed

[@zalmar5855]

I like how you say the flat damage is percent and the percent damage is flat. The example video states "100 damage", yet you say 100%, the character sheet states 50% crit damage, yet you say 50 damage. Very consistent, yes.

[@VatoRob]

I dont undersatnd the math. The main point of the critized video was, that you get a critdamage bonus with the "devouring blaze" skill node from sorc and that you can increase vulnerable damage with the paragon key nodes. So critdamage and vulnerable damage is the best in that case because otherwise you dont have the full benefits of the Critdamage and vulnerable damage multiplyer from these nodes. And he is right with that. So in the end ( for sorc) , vulnerable damage and crit damage IS the best. So the conclusion is: No matter what the math says, get vulnerable damage and crit damage before the other damage stats.

[@stefansabadas7177]

@MacroBioBoi Hello, i really need to understand correctly how damage works and is calculated in season 4. would you help me with a link to a good video or smth like that? please.. im just so sick of what is additive, what is multiplicative, what is bucket and so on..

[@MacroBioBoi]

I have a video a few back on this topic. It's the thumbnail with my head on a trash basket

[@stefansabadas7177]

@@MacroBioBoi thanks a lot!

[@grasgruen84]

before i watched the whole video, i wanna write down how i would have calculated. i would have multiplied by 1.5, but would have taken the other 50% crit hit damage and added it to the additive bucket, so 100 times 950 times 1.5... lets see if i am right.

[@danjohannesen8030]

is there a bug in shadowblight? i cant see that it works

[@MacroBioBoi]

No. It works.

[@danjohannesen8030]

@@MacroBioBoi i can not see that i works even one the dummy

[@TAC0FACE]

Wait... So we have buckets still? Crit DMG, Vulnerable if we Crit and make enemies vulnerable are multiplicative vs additive? So I want to split those two and take vuln and Crit DMG in roughly the same amounts I'm a barb need halp with maths.

[@MacroBioBoi]

No buckets! Just additive damage. If you crit, put your crit additive in the ONE bucket.

[@william7w7]

Can you make a video on the difference intelligence makes for a sorcerer

[@MacroBioBoi]

You should pick intelligence whenever possible, in most circumstances.

[@Cameron-fk5fk]

So is Storm Swell aspect bugged or not, been such a roller-coaster of emotions this season as a sorc that is only barely paying attention.

[@Winterhe4rt]

The OP addresses specifically a couple of Sorc aspects and Sorc Paragon legend nodes, which seem to be worded as a multiplicative damage boost, when apparently they only multiply with a specific additive dmg stat. Im sure they actually tested it and not only looked at the char sheet. But yeah I would not be surprised in the slightest if Blizz put powers in the game calling them "do [x] damage" when in reality its totally not that.

[@nephram1702]

Sorcere is bugged. Vulnerable is not getting the full 30 percent and aspects like storm swell and ice blades are broken. I expect it to be fixed once some of the devs finish playing elden ring.

[@jerestay]

Always keeping it real by bringing the data. Thanks!

[@ElectroTone]

As someone, who has no immediate interest in getting a Ph.D in D4 theory crafting, could someone please provide a list of 'known knowledgeable' creators or channels, who are generally considered able to create workable and optimized builds for the various classes, please? I subscribed to the like button, as requested.

[@Adeus555]

Damnit Mac... i am already subscribed... Theres no more subscribe buttons!

[@christophluger793]

They shouldn't have put the 50% that's multiplicative into the tooltip. Only show the additive damage and when you hover over it says that 50% is the base multiplier.

[@makitaki1]

im understandand nothingh ... kritchance and crit damage works all of the time ... and vulnable works on the top for what ever 3-5 sec sometimes ? or not ?

[@Oakkerr]

The tooltip is correct. I think everyone is confused by the wordings used in the tooltip. Both these guys are not wrong, yet not absolutely correct as well in a way Blizzard confused us. There is a difference between CRITICAL DAMAGE, and CRITICAL DAMAGE BONUS, the way it calculates CD is like how Macrobioboi calculates, the way it calculates CDB is how the other youtuber calculates. Totally 2 different things. Critical Damage is like how MBB calculates it, and works as intended (1.5x) as shown by him. Critical Damage BONUS is used normally in legendary paragon nodes, ulitmate skills, or aspects. Like for example, if you look at the Sorc legendary node BURNING INSTINCTS, it's increased burning damage is based off CRITICAL DAMAGE BONUS, that's where we use that number. Same thing goes for VULNERABLE DAMAGE and VULNERABLE DAMAGE BONUS. The word BONUS basically means it is by itself a 1.5 or 1.2 local multiplier, and it is mainly used for legendary nodes, ultimate skills, or aspect calculations.

[@MacroBioBoi]

The Sorc may be bugged, but if you get a 30% crit bonus on Necro, it's a new 1.3 multi. Example: Sacrifice Iron Golem. They're always new multipliers. If you Critically strike, your damage is all a critical strike. You deal 30% bonus damage when you Critically strike means increase all your damage by 30%.

[@sethwood1676]

@@MacroBioBoi What if sorc isn't bugged and is how classes should be working though per their new formula and they just got the short end of the stick?

[@MacroBioBoi]

@@sethwood1676 It's not in the way this question asks. A sorc with plain damage that crits will work the way I describe in this video.

[@sethwood1676]

@@MacroBioBoi Thanks for the reply. I assumed the video was right but, I still had to ask. Maybe blizzard will fix their code to accurately represent what they mean but, I'm not holding my breath with how much they are transitioning.

[@michaelbacigalupi5348]

It would be wonderful if we had this video based around thorns damages.

[@armandocolon6076]

Can someone tell me what is better is damage % or conjuration damage %. I cant understand damage in the game even with the video i feel like i ate too much crayons when i was a kid.

[@MacroBioBoi]

The bigger one, you do more often.

[@TAC0FACE]

I'm just glad we don't have to do the damage buckets, damage on Tues BS anymore. When I see Main Stat, Life and Raw +Damage or Crit Chance or Attack Speed, I grab it. I avoid Vulnerable and take Crit DMG, but as last resort. I play Barb.