Arcade Level Design is NOT Linear, It's INFINITE! Game Design Discussion

[@miltiadiskoutsokeras9189]

Arcade is the God among games. The environment where you have to compete side by side with the next impressive cabinet and the game must hook you immediately while being challenging to master. No contest.

[@CowVersion9.03]

I am going to ruin this comment did you just say among??? as in amogus fjsdgrbfhsdfdahbd lamoing my ass off end my suffering

[@PopeTheRevXXVIII]

No

[@miltiadiskoutsokeras9189]

The Internet, such a wonderful place.

[@boghogSTG]

This video's got a surprisingly high amount of ideas packed into it but I feel like you're covering 2 pretty different topics without connecting the two very well. Tome incoming : 1.) Linearity vs non-linearity in games and how these things become messy when people talk about them. === You're right that it becomes a clusterfuck. Linearity/nonlinearity are concepts applied to over-arching game structure & level design (the order in which players encounter different challenges/situations), they cannot be applied to micro-level positioning or individual game mechanics without destroying the category. The problem comes when people conflate nonlinearity with gameplay depth, and don't understand the distinction between complexity/breadth (total possibility space) and depth (possibility space that matters to the player). The goal of a designer is to convert nonlinearity into depth by making the paths viable (in regards to the goals the game presents), but them being unviable doesn't make the game linear. You're guilty of this conflation yourself in your speedrunning example. Speedrunning in general isn't the best example to use, because speedrunning doesn't simply remove nonlinearity, it removes depth by creating very specific criteria for victory and limiting the range of viable options massively. High level scoring does the same thing, the vast majority of routing depth disappears because players can't afford to make sub-optimal decisions anymore. Though it does highlight how difficult discussions of depth are, because the states that are important to players are ever-shifting and unpredictable. 2.) How play is structured, and how it interacts with pacing. === This is the main point of the video and it's an interesting one. Its connection with nonlinearity is questionable though. The main deciding factor besides pacing here is depth, the means by which such depth is achieved is irrelevant. It can be achieved by the use of micro-level positioning (dodging/controlling screen space in shmups), smart use of RNG (makes it harder to make optimal decisions), or deep mechanics (scoring with a lot of granularity). Arguably nonlinearity is helpful here, think of Megaman's stage select which gives the players more routing options to filter through when doing repeated runs, Umihara Kawase's doors, or even sequence breaking in RPG or metroidvania-style games. It's just not THE deciding factor, and you have to look at how exactly it's implemented here.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Looking back on the video, I probably should include a few more thesis statements to connect the two main concepts of the vid ha. With the linearity vs non-linearity, the point I am driving at is that while this concept has some uses in level design (branching paths and all that), the way it has been broadened to classify games doesn't make a lot of sense, especially if you are playing for a purpose like score chasing or speedrunning because purpose melts away bloat that is often justified as "player agency". It could then be argued that not all games involve a strict gameplay goal like scoring or speed, but then the question becomes ... then what is the purpose? Survival at best and aimless wandering at worse ha. This is where I think the emphasis on novelty in modern game design has come from and where including things like in-game tutorials seems like a good idea. I have heard time and time again that including tutorials in the game (like IN the game not as modes) is "good" game design because I guess the player cannot be trusted to figure the game out themselves. And this is what connects with the 2nd concept of the video, visualizing the way arcade level design should be considered (at least my opinion) as an infinitely repeating cycle where you need to multiply each moment of the game across time. A really well made arcade game must be self-contained and as engaging as possible at all times (gameplay density) which is a very difficult proposition to achieve, especially if modern game designers are thinking things like in-game tutorials and cut-scenes are a good idea ha. Also your example of megaman being non-linear because it has a stage select falls into very murky waters too because whether you play for score, survival, or speed, your still going to fall into the same situation of there being an ideal route for the player to follow. So while the non-linearity exists, I do not think it can just be taken as a positive in-itself. Why would having a stage select with a bunch of mediocre routes be better then having a game with very focused and refined single route other then novelty, which in itself will break down over time (because of the repeating nature of the genre)? So that's how the two concepts overlap with each other (which I should have included a few more statements on). The virtues of non-linearity (novelty) are both an illusion if you play with a purpose and will also break down over time, even if you are not playing with purpose.

[@boghogSTG]

@@TheElectricUnderground Yeah I think I get what you mean now, could have really bridged those 2 topics better IMO. The messy linearity/nonlinearity discourse is just a symptom of a bigger problem which is that the rise of content-focused games forced both developers and games to adapt a completely different game design mindset and then they retroactively applied it to arcadey games which were and still are extremely different. It's like a cancer that spreads and poisons a lot of game discussion, and using that as kind of an over arching theme would connect the topics better. Megaman example - as I said I don't think nonlinearity by itself is good necessarily, it's just a tool to create depth. The ideal route will always exist, so almost everything you do to make repeats interesting will eventually break down. Making games deep is an attempt to delay this process, by obfuscating the ideal choice with conflicting priorities. The hope is that the mental math on pros/cons of each choice and their long term ramifications will be complex enough to keep players engaged for looong time. The benefit of routes here (assuming they have carry-over elements that mean something, and that they're reasonably balanced) is that you're forcing the player to consider A LOT of stuff at once. Not just all the elements within the level, but also what you get from completing each level, and how it impacts future levels going forwards. This creates a lot of ambiguity and hopefully creates blind spots that can then make for some cool route evolution. Think of some times in speedrunning where a seemingly crappy item which was ignored for years turned out to be a massive time saver in the long run!

[@TheElectricUnderground]

@@boghogSTG Ha that's always funny when the happens in speedrunning, like moonwalk in super metroid was considered really bad for years (by myself included) because it can make certain movement awkward. Turns out though, there's this dumb tech called moon fall where you can clip though stuff or something with moonwalk, so now everyone has to learn to play with moonwalk on. Maybe in addition to character action we might need to do an electric live ep on gameplay depth and what makes a game truly deep or not, because there's a lot to dig through on the topic and it sounds like a fun one to discuss :-)

[@boghogSTG]

@@TheElectricUnderground Yeah sounds like fun, I'd be more interested in that than character action even tbh. That, or a general episode trying to make sense of common terminology used by people when talking about games, that'd be a neat one.

[@docsavage4921]

How do you speed run a game like Pac-Man Championship Edition anyways? Not like you can beat it in less than the set time limit.

[@gooberstankable]

Mark your ability to introduce stimulating discussions amidst the backdrop of shmups is, as always, impressive

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Hey what great praise, I m really glad you enjoyed the vid :-)

[@bransomething]

Haven't watched yet, but the general shift toward focusing on breadth instead of depth is honestly one of the biggest tragedies of mainstream games. Mechanically-rich, tightly-designed experiences with high skill ceilings started disappearing while sprawling (albeit more accessible) productions packed with low-quality filler gained traction. The industry basically trained people to treat games as giant disposable checklists, to the point where you need to make a video like this because some players don't even know how to approach denser, skill-based games once the credits roll.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Exactly!!!! 💯

[@RinMariiiii]

This is what "killed" arcades tbh. Not necessarily upping the cost of a credit from 25 cents to 50 or home ports of arcade games - it's the paradigm shift from gameplay-focused experiences with a plot that's only there to give you an excuse to do the objective of the game to cinematic narrative-driven ones that don't fit in an arcade that most gamers prefer nowadays Yes, rising costs of arcade credits turned away people, but I feel like that was a symptom of greater economic matters than arcades being greedy (inflation, rising cost of rent and other operating expenses, etc.). Even my local nickel arcade shut down recently, despite being much cheaper than, say, Round 1 or Dave & Buster's. Plus, things costing more didn't stop people from going to theaters/cinemas or getting a cup of coffee from Starbucks instead of just brewing it at home. Yes, you can literally have Darius, Ikaruga, Time Crisis, beatmania, etc at home, but if those ports really "killed" arcades then they should be topping the game sales charts, which they don't, because again people prefer for-the-home big-budget games that tell a story on the grade of TV shows or films and also most people don't want to buy costly peripherals just to replicate the arcade experience at home. The only arcade-to-consumer games that seem to get anywhere near mainstream acceptance nowadays are fighting games, due to their strong competitive scene, lengthy story modes that provide the game lore, and deeply-written cast of characters, which aren't exactly the domain of shmups and similar genres.

[@ChernobylComedyAndWings]

​@@RinMariiiii I see the starbucks thing come up a few times now when discussing games and such. I think the problem when comparing food to anything else, and with these analogies (heh funny word), is that we eat by necessity, our bodies do not need to periodically play a game or something. So those internal drivers that dictate what we do and where we place value is much different. I have no problem paying $15 for lunch because I have to eat, but for me to pay $15 for a game or a movie my mind starts to weigh things like for instance (future meals).

[@JohnshiBRPG]

Keep in mind that this is before the video goes in preview mode: I can understand on the surface why the arcade level design appears to be "linear" on the surface because the amount of content is restricted by how much total play time is expected to last to satisfy operators, not including games that have infinite loops. To make the gameplay content near infinite, the level designs should encourage flexible play style amongst players to avoid the feeling that there is only one absolute way to play. There is one example of gameplay that is exposed to be linear only through expert play - Pac Man with perfect game score due to the maze layout being the same and predicible AI, leading to the maximum possible score before reaching the glitch. However, that does not stop the game from being appealing throughout time.

[@boghogSTG]

You're conflating nonlinearity with depth here which makes your point more confusing than it needs to be, but anyway It's not so much about playstyle (one will always be better), it's more about creating a huge amount of variability in actions, and then making sure that suboptimal and optimal play aren't too far apart. In practice this means that players can make mistakes and recover from them, giving them room for suboptimal play so they don't instantly reset. A good example of this would be racing games where even something as tiny as your control over the pressure you apply to the throttle/brake has an effect expert players care about, without "playstyles" really. Though this creates a problem for more casual players who won't notice or won't care about these tiny differences and will want their skill growth to be very clearly and directly communicated to them. It's tough.

[@lunaria_stg]

Just to expand upon Bog Hog's first sentence. The term you are looking for is player agency, which means the player has choices. Non-linear gameplay is a special case of player agency where you can do things in different orders or take different paths and still reach the same outcome.

[@mishikomishiko9088]

I like linear, artistic, deep and well made games. Non-linear and especially open world games is a big no-no for me. I just don't have enough time and patience to 'explore' their worlds.

[@REDLINE.FGC1]

Perhaps a happy middle ground for home releases. A "story" mode, with all the flash an cinematics for casuals. And an "Arcade" mode that just cuts all of that out.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

yes I agree! Radiant silvergun actually has this solution, which is really cool.

[@RinMariiiii]

Natsuki Chronicles goes that route. There's a one-stage-at-a-time Story Mode with dialogue and cutscenes, then there's Arcade Mode that cuts all of that out and just throws stage after stage at you, with the only story bits being the ending monologue.

[@jerm5466]

FF16 did it and it’s an excellent solution! I wanted the same thing for astral chain back in the day, essentially an “all action” mode

[@Skelta75]

An arcadegame with zero downtime can end up being very tiresome for the majority of arcade players. Having no relaxing first stage - like most cave games do - means the entry for the less hardcore will be extremely high. Respecting the players time is important, but jumping to stage 2 intensity at the start should be optional.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

I think the elegant solution, in the case of modern shmups, would be to take the tutorial stage 1, like in ddp, and move it to a separate mode, that way score chasers aren't forced to play a tutorial over and over but the stage can still be accessed by new players if they wish

[@Opebin]

I never thought about that infinity idea in design before I think devs could learn respecting the player's time from that a lot in any genre

[@boghogSTG]

I think there should be a law where developers should be strapped to a chair and forced to play their levels over and over again trying to do something extremely difficult. Just so they know how much disrespectful bullshit players have to put up with constantly, either because they wanted their fancy cutscene or because they didn't think things through very well.

[@johnjackson9767]

​@@boghogSTG>What is QA?

[@boghogSTG]

@@johnjackson9767 You think the directors, level designers, gameplay programmers, and other key people are sitting around doing challenge runs for QA?

[@nicklong27]

Is that Phantasy Star Online music I hear? Holy shit you just shot my head back to 2001 for a moment there

[@doofmoney3954]

I'm not a schmup nor arcade gamer at all but I still have to thank you so much for putting these thoughts into words. In classic ttrpgs we're having pretty much the same battle vs modern design and it's so interesting seeing gamers of different genres having the same dilemmas. Godspeed and Happy Gaming!

[@jacobo_fungus_farmer]

Hey. I am a ttrpg gm/player too and I have noticed a lot of similarities between shmups and ttrpgs.

[@doofmoney3954]

@@jacobo_fungus_farmer There are a lot of concepts that can be applied. If you have not checked out AD&D 1e yet I strongly recommend it, it's easily the most intense game-loop in the scene.

[@EM-oe2lz]

Is there a video out there discussing this stuff? Not familiar with tabletop games

[@JohnshiBRPG]

Nice reference with the Exa Arcadia interview and that introduction level should be treated like any other level - filled with possibilities. Also a good idea to call arcade video games more of a circular experience like a music album since it should be easy to get back into the game like a song. Also, when you emphasize "how much does the game respect your time" instead of the game begging you to spend the time through investment through intended design, that seems to strike a good chord for casual players as well. I am no expert at any particular game, but fighting games along with other competitive games that ask the player to learn the controls for a long time before getting started and then lose for the first few rounds, that's when frustration comes into play. I would rather pick up and play small games than invest in long games.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Yeah I think that s a really helpful way of viewing it, because otherwise you may be tempted to add in a bunch it 1 time only content

[@Sasha-ux6xe]

man referencing marvin gaye in a shmup video what a legend!

[@awawawaawawawa2321]

At first i wasnt really sure what you meant when you were talking about circular game design, but i think what you are more or less talking about is replayability and keeping the game engaging even on successive playthroughs. I think a large contributing factor to a shmups replayability is the fact that shmup players have an idea of mastery in one form or another wether it be completing the game (some shmups give you a maximum of 3 continues), 1 ccing, iterating on your highscore or even speedrunning. Shmup level design is centered around these expectations, shmups are generally considered more difficult than other game genres because the developers know people are going to be going through their game several times over in order to complete or 1 cc it (take jrpgs as an example of a genre on the opposite end of the spectrum). For people aiming for a higher degree of mastery like high scoring and speedrunning, there are elements that introduce other gameplay dynamics that the latter would have otherwise ignored such as the medal scoring system in the strikers 1942 series or other medal collecting mechanics common in shmups. Speed runners may also opt to route out ways to quick kill bosses by using the appropriate power ups and targeting certain areas. Likewise ship and power up choice will most likely change depending on the players objective. Other ways that keep successive play throughs of the same game engaging are the introduction of variables. Basically no two runs are ever going to be one hundred percent the same and change depending on a number of factors such as power ups used, level of power ups, enemy spawn location, order of levels (like strikers 1942 first 4 are randomized), bullet spread (especially those patterns that result from bullets shot by turrets), collectable locations, etc. Basically these are the reasons I believe shmups have so much replay value when compared to more modern game designs. Even with all this however developers have still made strides to add in more content to accomodate audiences that dont strive for mastery in the form of alternate play modes like caravan, new ships, new stages etc. It is interesting that you brought up the concept of circular game design though cause i feel the term can best describe the game design of more retro titles such as space invaders, galaga, centipede, missile defense etc. In these games there is no win condition, you literally play until you lose and the gameplay cycles the same enemies and patterns with the only variable changing being enemy speed and frequency the enemies spawn resulting in a gameplay experience that feels like an iteration of the same level over and over again just made harder. Also as a side note FF13 was really bad and i havent touched the franchise ever since its release, i honestly have alot of strong feelings towards the game but i feel that would be besides the point of the video.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

What s interesting about modern game design is that with the removal of scoring systems from gaming the focus of the game design has really shifted from this circular model that I described to a much stronger focus on single playthrough novelty, which makes games much more disposable in the long run

[@stolensentience]

@@TheElectricUndergroundperfectly described the “masterpiece” Elden ring lol

[@NIMPAK1]

I care more about whether a game is linear or not gameplay wise as opposed it being linear progression wise. This is going to be a spicy hot take, but I actually consider A Link Between Worlds a linear game gameplay wise. Because you can just buy all the items at the beginning, the order you do things in doesn't matter and you'll pretty much play a dungeon the same way regardless of whether you picked it as your first or as your last. A Link to the Past on the other hand has a bit more restrictions on how you can progress, but dungeon order plays a much more significant role in how you play that dungeon. If you don't have a certain item going into that dungeon, you're going to have a hard time. There's even a glitch where one of the bosses is immune to your fully upgraded sword, so if you try to cheese the game by getting the upgrade early, you'll have a harder time beating that boss.

[@pat777b]

I want to see more in shmups is some sort of 'ammo' system for the main shot. Garegga has rank to discourage firing for no reason and I think an ammo mechanic also accomplishes this. Tho, I do realize limited main gun ammo isn't really a thing for most shmups. Bombs are the 'limited ammo' weapons. Imagine a game where your ship only has X shots to fire. Kill an enemy drops an item that grants ammunition. For shmups, I don't think running out of ammo should turn into an auto lose. If you run out of ammo, the game is still possible via dodging but much harder. Bosses are timed but have hidden difficult patterns for players who run out of ammo on them. Ammo is balanced in such a way that good ammo management means you should have enough ammo to kill the boss. It also makes you have to pay attention to whether your shots are actually hitting your intended target.

[@sakesaurus]

the idea of non-linear graph of quests or goals that can't all 100% be completed in a playthrough is super good game design as far as I'm concerned. It adds volumes to the suspension of disbelief, playing it feels like real life. That being said, there are other ways to make the game replayable. The arcade shmup design could be possibility viewed as the infinite quest checklist and you indeed don't get to complete all of them.

[@Erk1234567]

Your criticism of Dodonpachi mirrors my issue with Sin And Punishment's 0-1. That being said, I think S&P fixes this problem with the unlockable "Turbo" and "Frame-Skip" toggles you get after clearing the game on Hard. The timing and execution becomes a lot tighter and the game's pace becomes frantic. Lengthened the lifespan of the game for me just as I considered shelving it. Mad respect for the "What's Going On" plug. My favorite example of a CD looping is "Fantasma" by Cornelius where he starts the first track by playing back the final track, pausing it and experimenting with different sounds and microphone configurations to perfect the album.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Oh wow I didn't know sin and punish had a turbo mode! Now I want to try that out :-) also I will have to check that album out, sounds interesting

[@Erk1234567]

@@TheElectricUnderground if you enjoy the spontaneity of something like the Jet Set Radio OST, I can't recommend it enough

[@Erk1234567]

@@TheElectricUnderground and yeah, not enough people know about Turbo Mode. I'm making it my personal mission to spread the word; it becomes a whole new game

[@stolensentience]

King gizzard has such an album. And I think the Beatles were kinda the pioneers of such conceptual albums, especially sgt peppers which feels like it’s meant to loop forever, despite the silence on the last track.

[@Phantasiafans]

Cutscenes/loading screens can be okay if they are very short and placed after a particularly hectic section (e. g. eschatos). Also a simple skip button can solve the problem.

[@Dunkelschloss]

I think when it comes to that 'turorial stage problem'. The home-versions might actually have the advantage here (considering they understand the design philosophy). As they could make a full on tutorial (stage), but make it it's own separated thing you can choose from the main menu and then the Main Game skips it. This could also work for story elements, by having an aditional 'story mode' there you can have cutscenes between every stage and stuff. And then again the Arcade mode strips it all away...

[@TheElectricUnderground]

yes I think that's the smart solution! put the tutorial in a separate mode :-)

[@sakesaurus]

ahem hellsinker

[@sakesaurus]

i mean, hellsinker has story but you can bomb to skip it

[@musicmeanslife65]

Great stuff. I'm making my first game and it's a tiny shmup done in pico 8. I'm trying to capture the dodonpachi frantic feeling and I always saw stage 1 as very fun lol. I guess the secret to deep gameplay is deep understanding so I will have to play more.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Glad to hear it! Yes try to avoid the tutorial stage 1 if you can!

[@theconsolekiller7113]

Agreed. Any game becomes linear once you introduce some type of goal, whether it be personal or by design. An open world game could be made which basically has a shit ton of main story arcs or campaigns you can divert off into with 100s of endings, maybe they even intersect and affect eachother depending on choices and order. Unlikely it would be made but something like that might be able to be called non linear in design. The moment you create your own personal goals its easy for that idea to fall apart. It really depends how you want to define these things and what parts of it you want to focus on. When you distill an open world game down to speedrun times alot of that freedom seems to fall apart. Many of the fastest strategies become identical until someone finds something faster. The routes, methods, etc all look the same from run to run. I just love great gameplay. Thats king for me. If Im in the mood for a different style of game, I play a different game. Theres no lack of game types. Really enjoy these types of topics. Awesomely presented as always.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

glad you enjoyed the topic, it's a bit more abstract then my other topics, but I am really happy to try and convey the concept ha.

[@theconsolekiller7113]

@@TheElectricUnderground Its cool to see the deeper aspects of these games covered. Its something that doesnt get covered often.

[@davy_K]

Non linear gameplay is an illusion in the vast majority of cases. If a game has a narrative then it's linear. How can it be any other way? You might have diversions along the way that are optional but they are only masking the linear nature of the narrative. Fluff does not make a game non linear. You might build a game that requires the collection of a number of artifacts to progress and allow their collection in any order. But you lose the narrative and even then it collapses down to a linear challenge again as they have to be collected in a sequence. Some sequences may be optional - were there is no dependency on needing item A to get item B but usually games require dependencies like that and that takes you back to being linear again. If a video game becomes truly open world and really non linear then it becomes a toy - not a game. Closest truly non linear game I've played is Asteroids. No two games are exactly the same - like playing table games such as pool, pocket billiards, shuffleboard or snooker. Physics, randomness and the player actions all interact to change the game environment. Would be interesting to see a modern take on that.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Yes exactly!! "Non-linear" is often just a buzz word to try and make unfocused game design sound trendy and evolved ha. Make a map and throw a bunch of crap in it, congrats you ve created "an immersive non-linear experience."

[@arhturcosta4066]

Garry's mod said hello.

[@stolensentience]

Totally agree, except instead of toy I would call it a sandbox. Gta5 online is the best example of this, since there’s no real endgame and you’re just grinding money to buy more shit to aimlessly drive around in.

[@REDLINE.FGC1]

Also, it'd be cool to see an in-depth comparison/review of DDP and DOJ in one video.

[@andy7666]

Ive always loved the infinite replay nature of shmups. You are basically playing against yourself unless you are top tier (how many of us are on high scores? Lol 😂 Well, traditional boards anyway, like top 30), it's a challenge that's all on you!! Games like Dark Souls (yes, I know..) or Nioh adopted this self challenge somewhat, but having online elements. On the other hand Raiden V took active online elements with the cheer system (modern high score boards on new shmups and ports even, global with hundreds or more slots, two player over teh webz.. ) .

[@TheElectricUnderground]

YES online leaderboards add a ton of extra value to the games! They are pretty dang important these days I think

[@stolensentience]

Dark souls level design wraps around itself much like a great album would, while nioh is very linear. However, nioh found a way to do the same thing (infinite wrap around) but with its combat, whereas dark souls combat is extremely linear/homogenous/flat. I’m not disagreeing with you but I felt compelled to make that point. Nioh2 is my all time favorite game (can’t stand dark souls with its emphasis on exploration and slow combat, but it has perhaps the greatest world building in any game).

[@RuV9999]

i can feel DDP stage 1 was like a practice learning how to combo in DDP. i remember when i was try hard to get a lot combo as long as i can in stage 1 even my combo still cut out because the combo meter are run out sooo quick! that i cannot reach the next combo hit. then when im in stage 2 i was forgetting all my combo run because it looks more complicated and do survival route instead. and i think its fine to getting my first score extend at stage 4.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Yeah ddp stage one is a literal practice stage ha, I think it would have been better if they turned it off and had a dipswitch to make it optional

[@RuV9999]

@@TheElectricUnderground i was thinking the combo system is the main feature of the game but yet it also optional for some player. like its up to player whoever want to play combo chain scoring or just casually survive.

[@run1cc347]

Hey man, hope all is well. Just wanted to jump in here and say: you gotta do a preview/early thoughts vid about M2’s Senjin Aleste. It was covered in their office livestream today, and they did an all day stream of one of the cabinets on Nico Video too, with live players. It has FOUR selectable difficulties on the arcade version, and a tonne of novel mechanics. Tiger Heli is not really the big news today, it’s Senjin Aleste. Calling it now- a stone cold modern classic ✊

[@run1cc347]

Casual Mode clear from today (bear in mind this is the second easiest mode on offer): kzbin.info/www/bejne/pqe1qoOPrLN0gaM

[@run1cc347]

Chubby girl cheese cancels 🍩🧀

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Oh awesome! Yes I ll check it out!

[@js200gb]

Nice video! BTW, did you see the new Aleste game coming to Arcades on July 15th? Looks pretty cool.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Oh that is really cool! Will it be on EXA?

[@js200gb]

@@TheElectricUnderground If I am reading it correctly, it will come out on “APM3,” which I’ve never heard of. Short for “ALL.Net P-ras MULTI Ver. 3.”

[@JohnshiBRPG]

The Electric Underground I read onto the forums and some players who played it felt disappointed. I even read that the CEO publicly confirmed that Senjin (Aleste) did not get picked up for EXA due to not meeting arcade quality standards, especially on the operator side. Look up Senjin Aleste on Arcade Otaku and Shmups forum threads.

[@WHYZEE]

When battle royals where starting to gain relevance(specifically referencing PUBG). People often commented on the amount of downtime enhancing little amount of game-play in comparison. There are things like the sound designated pacing that go in that, but it’s interesting in the context of the video as while different genres, it’s from of engagement is similar to the one presented: There being a “loop” being fueled by an intrinsic motive to improve at the game. Yet the former conflicts for what be an ideal “loop”. This is more off topic but what you described doesn’t seem all that to different to what would make a sport fun. Yet a sport can go on for decades with minimal to no changes and still have a huge audience yet, while a video games often fade into obscurity inn less than a decade. It might show with what I posted former but I am getting confused between your idea and the idea of a game-play loop.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

So the idea of this vid is specifically how the level design works in relation to the gameplay loop. So with the case of battle royals, I would argue they need to tighten up the level design by cutting down on all the traversal as all that time just walking around without any hint of danger will compound itself across long sessions of gameplay

[@stolensentience]

There’s 400 people looking for hyper competitive matches in sf3 (1998) as we speak, as well as several kof games from the 90s, literally every version of sf2 (1991-95 or so), every version of sf alpha, etc. Counterstrike is easily a top 5 competitive game and it’s basically the same as it was in 99 or whatever. Look at smash melee. The main problem with games compared to sports is that devs can too easily dictate a tournament/competitive scene, as well as just neglecting those games and creating incentives for newer players to play the newest versions, so that pros have no choice but to play the new and inferior versions (capcom did this with sf4 to the tune of sf5 and now 6, look what Nintendo does to the smash scene, look at overwatch… they nuked their whole e sport the moment they though they wouldn’t be able to control the entire profit stream from it as an e sport, not to mention the patch, season pass, and dlc/pay-to-win culture that nearly all competitive games are hindered by.

[@EM-oe2lz]

Holy shit, this is the exact thoughts I've been having for a while. Games and esspecially shmups should be built with the idea of the player playing hundreds if not thousands of times in mind. The thing is, I actually think the arcade format *can* be improved, it doesn't necessarily need to be a 30 minute 1cc grind, heck most players just savestate and theorycraft routes and stuff instead of spamming credits because that's how you're *supposed* to play. Especially with the advent of home gaming vs arcade gaming. I am still thinking of ideas of how to make a better format though, the only "innovation" I've seen in this regard is stage select but still... that has its own issues.

[@Bovineicide]

Golden Age example but Ms Pac-Man scoring runs are maddening because of those little bullshit 30 second cutscenes lol

[@TheElectricUnderground]

oh jeez no kidding! why namco ha

[@s_factor_sam]

Thing is, infinitely looping gameplay in which each level is the same every time can get stale. In fact, for me, speedrunning and score chasing removes enjoyment. Now, I did grow up on Sega Genesis platformers. But my enjoyment of those came from improving as a player and finding good flow until you can complete the game in one sitting via skill, flow, and muscle memory. Not through conscious memorization. Even to this day, Iññ occasionally boot up Sonic 2 (my first game ever) and have fun letting my muscle memory give me that satisfying flow through the stages that I played countless times, both by myself and with my father, as a child. However, when memorization is a requirement in order to get good at a game, I think that's when it stops serving the purpose of a videogame for the majority of people and becomes work. Most people play games to escape/wind down from things like our jobs (work that actually pays off in money that lets us sustain ourselves and our families). I mean, that's why videogames even exist. That's why I think that, for the modern day, I actually like to avoid games that require memorization to succeed. Enter: Procedural generation. I think roguelikes and other games with procedurally generated environments/stages are the current form of what you like and what I enjoyed retro games for. In fact, I have my eyes on a tactical competitive FPS called Due Process that uses procedurally generated maps. That way, teams can't have an advantage by playing longer and memorizing the maps. It requires strategic planning during the pregame phase in which you get a set amount of time to look at the map and draw out a strategy, and if things don't go to plan, then you need adaptability and improvisation. That makes it more appealing to me than the many titles that reward grinding and no-lifing the game more than the real-life applicable skills required in Due Process. Also, I've found roguelike shmups (like Steredenn) to be more enjoyable and keep me coming back, while games widely-held by the shmup community as the greats (games like Mushi and DDP) were fun for a few hours after I got them on deep discount but I haven't touched them since. The randomness keeps it fresh and the opposite of a repetitive grind.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

I didn't get into the topic as much in this video, but this is where just the right amount of RNG makes magic happen. CAVE games have memorization for sure, but they also have a nice dash of RNG that prevents the player from being able to memo their way through the game completely. Sounds like you might be interested in Battle Garegga! That's a game that is incredibly dynamic and will always surprise you no matter how much you play it. It's also insanely deep so you have a lot to learn and dig into.

[@s_factor_sam]

@@TheElectricUnderground Thanks for the recommendation. What's the easiest way to access that game?

[@stolensentience]

Anything skill related requires memorization. And procedurally generated levels get just as stale if not more so imo. I like cleverly and intricately designed levels which allow for skill and player expression, as well as just being dynamic (as opposed to random). Optimal routes can take years or even decades to develop, even in linear level design.

[@Mingodough]

Huh every time you make more and more sense.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

:-D

[@thommccarthy1139]

Casually dropping the greatest album of all time into a gaming discussion as a metaphor is chef's kiss.

[@stolensentience]

I don’t recall him mentioning sgt peppers?

[@thommccarthy1139]

​@@stolensentience sgt peppers is a good album but it is childish baby crap compared to marvin and every single beatle will agree with this statement. not even close to the same level.

[@stolensentience]

@@thommccarthy1139 yeeeeeah sure buddy!

[@tehValorin]

The "weak first stage" thing is subjective. I personally don't enjoy them much (but from other point, I try different ways of playing those stages such as scoring/speedrunning to entertain myself), but I brought up this topic at a stream of another shmuper, and he said that to him, those are "breather levels", a chance to have a rest after previous run.

[@stolensentience]

That’s called rationalization

[@jan-niklashoffmann4683]

Well said, couldn't agree more.

[@dereklewis4469]

100,000+ play-throughs is a lot of quarters!

[@user034]

It's not really necessary to make the levels non-linear, but rather to create an interesting interaction with the level (e.g. avoiding falling spikes, rising pillars of fire, etc). In modern action games that don't have interesting interactions with levels, the non-linearity of the levels/dungeons serves to give them that interaction and make the game less monotonous.

[@JohnshiBRPG]

You did mention that you want to emphasize on intensifying the circular gameplay, but how would it be possible to make it appealing and not suffer from same repeated patterns and simply increase health of adversaries / speed/ attack patterns? Some older video games suffer from simple circular difficulty increase, which makes such runs less sustainable.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Well that s actually why you want to view the genre as circular, to avoid the repeated patterns problem, where you think having the same pattern in stage 1 and then again in stage 5 will be ok, but since the patterns repeat over and over that duplicate patterns becomes more and more of a problem

[@JohnshiBRPG]

@@TheElectricUnderground That same pattern problem is part of it, but the infinite loop where they simply increase enemy HP without changing patterns significantly is what can really make the looping idea unsustainable. It's possible to make any game involve circular design and last a limited time, not extremely short, per play through so the player can spend a healthy amount of time playing without going on for hours.

[@LethalBubbles]

I mean, Level 5 of Donkey Kong sure looks a lot like Level 1, doesn't it? "Replay Value" and "New Game +" is the console way of putting it. But for Arcades, the loop just needs to keep going. Look at Survival Puzzle games like Tetris or Puyo Puyo.

[@neontetra1000]

Omg grandad! Get with the times.why are you playing these old games from the 70’s !. Have you seen the new fifa game!? OMg graphics!., loot box!! Like normal people duh!…have you even played heavy rain? You don’t have to have all this execution and other hard stuff.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Next Video: Why shmups have too many bullets, need more loot boxes, and should not let the player die or gameover.

[@RinMariiiii]

My visualization of arcade game design is more akin to a roller coaster. You pay the cost of the run. Your seats are now locked, please observe all safety guidelines to ensure a safe ride, i.e. gameplay. You go thorugh the ride and then you're back at the dock. But you might want to enjoy this experience again and again, so game devs, much like with roller coaster devs, have to put thought into each second of the experience so that it can still be great even on repeat trips.

[@stolensentience]

Hard to get behind this metaphor when rollercoasters have 0 variables and 0 challenge 0 player agency 0 skill expression. Ironically enough AAA games today seem to follow such an “on rails” experience, even if it’s open world (providing an illusion of freedom).

[@mipplestar]

This is so deep, let's goo

[@jeffreyvedha4871]

hey mark that interview is blocked due to a copyright claim from sme. could you upload it as unlisted and post the link in the description?

[@TheElectricUnderground]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/l6eWiaiXndelhJo

[@TheElectricUnderground]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/l6eWiaiXndelhJo

[@TheElectricUnderground]

No problem kzbin.info/www/bejne/l6eWiaiXndelhJo

[@jeffreyvedha4871]

@@TheElectricUnderground thanks my dude

[@MisterRandomEncounter]

7:12 Ok Question here.. Lets say i make a game and i make a small mini level called "Tutorial" The entire purpose of it is a training level which the player can literally skip. Then i start the actual game as you say at level 2 What should be in this tutorial level to make it worth coming back to as much as fighter gamers do their training levels for as you already established fighters and SHMUPs are relatives to a certain extent.

[@stolensentience]

You can make it a good cross section of what your game’s gameplay is representing, and then have it loop until the players says to continue, as well as a few menu options like a training mode where the player can experience all the important mechanics in a couple minutes, as well as practice the different ships/guns/powerups (without spoiling them all at once)

[@0xelfeR]

hey guys, what's the name of the game showing up at 0.25 and 11.30? never played it , i like his bullet cadence & timing, want to give it a try thanks

[@brainpalace6781]

Armed Police Batrider, a true masterpiece.

[@lunaria_stg]

Battle Garegga. There's an M2 port for the PS4.

[@docsavage4921]

Beat 'em ups all had endings though.

[@stolensentience]

Not if a high score is the goal

[@Nextliar]

My god the intro of ikaruga... literally a reason to stop playing it

[@blahblahblah118]

There's no way anybody is playing a game 100k times. DDP is 45 min for a 2-all clear. That would mean playing the same game for 4 hours per day for 51 years. The point still stands that downtime adds up but I would say the best players max out at 10k times.That is still 4 hours per day for 5 years.

[@stolensentience]

Except the best players play faaaar more than 4 hrs a day

[@James-pr5kt]

Tutorial? Press key combo to skip. Cutscene? Key combo to skip. Literally as simple as that, would take trivially small amounts of dev time to add to existing games too.

[@NovaTitanProductions]

I like discussions about game design like this. It's a blend of gamasutra from a player's perspective.

[@AcceleratingUniverse]

final fantasy 13 really is holding up for 60 hours with no exaggeration. one of the worst games i've ever played.

[@AcceleratingUniverse]

to clarify, your npc allies fight with AI and are strong enough to beat the boss themselves a lot of the time. you basically just watch the game play itself

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Yeah the game could very well suck ha, I've never played it. But what I am certain about is that the lack of branching paths is not the game's core problem, as many games have made extremely "linear" game design work, and work really well. Plus I sort of doubt throwing in a few branching paths and zones is not going to be the fix ha.

[@PopeTheRevXXVIII]

No it isn't You failed the class

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Yes it is :-)

[@PopeTheRevXXVIII]

@@TheElectricUnderground F and expelled Look on the front of the Cab though the key to design is right there.

[@stolensentience]

@@PopeTheRevXXVIIIspeaking of failed classes, how is English going?

[@fdevlin5932]

This guy smokes weed daily for 24 years, then quits for three weeks and instantly becomes an expert on sobriety

[@stolensentience]

???