Are Combo Decks bad for Yu-Gi-Oh!?

who would win: Yubel endboard or 1 Evenly matched?
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[@sladevalen]

Combo decks exist in every card game. The issue with them in yugioh is how little resources are required to combo off. In other games you have time to deal with the combo player before the pieces are assembled. In yugioh its have the answer in your opening hand or you lose on the spot.

[@123321cpu]

No, we CAN have both combo decks and ways to stop them without drawing the out. Ishizu Tear mirrors is the prime example of this, where some of their combo starters/extenders can reward both players as well as in-engine quick effects. The design space does exist and can be elaborated further but EVERYONE (especially TCG players) just complained. We just want to go first, setup an unbreakable board and win the game.

[@ericknunez8069]

Ishizu tear is a horrible example. That deck was so overtuned that nothing else had a chance

[@supershadow125]

​@@ericknunez8069I'll never forget that these people and content creators wanted every future deck to be like tear ishizu

[@Elystal]

@@ericknunez8069 they should have designed 10 ishizu tear level decks

[@chewdoom8415]

​@@supershadow125 They have taken some inspiration from tear in some decks/archetypes: bystials, labyrinth, Kirin retrain in fire king, one of the monsters in transcendisaurus. Engine handtraps basically

[@joaopedroribeiro1483]

1 card board breakers are legal as long as 1 card combos exists

[@lucasalarcon3230]

1 card board breakers we're a thing first in fact you could argue that massive boardbreakers and hand traps is the reason why combo needed to be push so much

[@mrevilducky]

​@lucasalarcon3230 Lucas here is actually correct. Raigeki and Dark Hole as the original board breakers is what pushed floating, anti- destruction, and protection effects

[@garfrockbreadtroll]

bro added "combo" to the video title and thought we wouldnt notice

[@HyperWhale286]

yes, decks are bad for a game based on decks

[@Elystal]

@@HyperWhale286 as a deck i agree

[@l3wdlemon708]

Dice is better for yugioh

[@panda_expewess8714]

Combo is the only thing I did notice 💀

[@MyBesso]

I think the top board should 100% be possible..... but not through 1-card combos. If you can end on that board with 1-card combos, then 1-card board breakers are 100% ok to beat it, but if you can end on the board with a 3-4 card combo, evenly should 100% not be in the game. Edit: also, the TRUE problem again is just generic boss monsters. If yama needed an unchained monster as link material, and caesar needed a DDD as xyz material, then Yubel would end on what, Varudras + phantom + the super poly trap?

[@babrad]

Even then I believe the lack of restrictions in those monsters is the issue and not the generic materials. For example Yama was made to help unchained get a 1 card combo through Tour guide so having a fiend lock when using either effect would have prevented Varudras (on your turn) and SP (on the opponent's turn) making it balanced. DDD on the other hand was initially supposed to be generic Fiend support (with some cards working on fiends in general) but the issue here was Sharvara/Shyama/Engraver/Necroquip/Aerial being specifically designed with Caesar in mind. Making them lvl5 or 11 (the most under supported levels) wouldn't create any issue so this was intentional. The orcust links were great card design, I do agree for Caesar it should have been at least 1 "d/d" monster but even if that wasn't the case I believe those mentioned lvl6 momsters would be designed to use the next best thing after Caesar.

[@darkrootambush3860]

The other decks didn’t have cards that said “any card effect in the game that can be activated becomes a starter for my combo”

[@frankpassi9812]

Yubel got the most nonsense custom cards imaginable and it is carrying silvers to master on its own. I got to master without any archetypes at all, so to say combo decks are the problem, even rhetorically; speaks to a demonstrably low IQ on the part of anyone who thinks combo decks are a problem

[@newelo163]

@@frankpassi9812 what deck did you play that has no arctypes

[@pamonja4301]

​@@newelo163stun

[@frankpassi9812]

No-archetype dinos

[@frankpassi9812]

Archetypes are for babies and meta losers

[@utopia19876]

Okay but like… 2015 “combo decks” and today’s combo decks are too completely different beasts. It’s not that Yugioh isn’t for you for not wanting the unskippable cutscene, it’s that it became an increasingly longer cutscene with smaller opportunities to use the skip button.

[@garfrockbreadtroll]

farfa the typa guy to get really introspective and retrospective on the current and historical meta shifts in yugioh to only follow that by laughing at a deepfried meme on master duel meta

[@mndy129]

Can't a man be both?

[@Damian-qs7pg]

I don’t really agree with farfa’s take here. Sure, there have been auto-win combo decks pop up every other format, but the resiliency of post POTE top decks is so toxic because you need to draw the magic combo of board-breakers to have a turn. Whereas with other ignorant combo decks, it’s either an actual ftk, or some specific type of card can counter them.(droll with gouki warrior, dark ruler w/2020 Dragonlink etc) Post POTE decks also aren’t literal ftk’s, so Konami doesn’t hit them fast enough.

[@TemporalDelusion]

Based take. I had the same issues with Duelist Alliance. It's not even the damn power level it's the recursion and recovery potential, resilience as you say that is frustrating. Once you have the out which can take up to 3 cards (according to Farfa) in your starting hand you still need to contend with their recursion and win the game on the spot or else they'll do it all over again.

[@Damian-qs7pg]

Even with the halq buster Lock bullshit of 2020, those decks didn’t have the recursion/long game of modern decks. So if you somehow broke the board of a combo deck, you won.

[@drewbabe]

Boo-hoo I hate when I can't beat a deck with layered interaction that makes the game fun and interesting, I miss back when people were making VFD. That's what you sound like

[@felixdaniels37]

>Post POTE decks aren't literal FTKs Gimmick Puppets and Fableds sweating nervously.

[@babrad]

​@@Damian-qs7pgdo I remember a different format since Eldlich had their traps as plan b and Adama had enough material for block dragon to easily start their turn with 3 additional searches? Toss was the start of mid range dominance over wombo combo, but if we don't talk about Infernoble and Swoso specifically, all other combo decks after that also had followup.

[@stayinglost]

I dont mind playing against combo decks. Part of the fun for me is breaking boards. However if I go into a game and someone flips a floodgate and I stare blankly at my opponent for 20 fucking turns, im mad. I refuse to stare for more than 5 turns, I would rather play something, then say "response" and possibly break the board, then stare and wait to die.

[@Kintaku]

I take issue with both. I enjoy breaking boards too, and the fact that Yubel even CAN be beaten with board breakers is a good thing. I just don’t enjoy waiting for the set up and don’t enjoy playing the decks myself usually so it’s pretty one-sided. So far the only “combo” decks I’ve ever really enjoyed are Tearlaments and Infernoble. That said, I do kind of agree with Farfa here. The best decks basically always do this. So even if I don’t like it, I’m used to dealing with them.

[@lanius1084]

both sound awful

[@zakariaelhimer1325]

It's the same fucking shit, just draw the out in both

[@satoutatsuhiro866]

Yugioh is a balencing nightmare. Floodgates were never really fun and fair but they could be. Like how permanent spells are way more fair than traps as flodgates or if you put restrictipns on them like macrocosmos but you are not allowwed to have cards in your Gy. Combodecks would be fine if they actually did combos. if you need 1 card to do it its not a combo. if you can end on the same board no matter the hand its not combo. you should actually need do some assembling before the fkt. making it an otk which are fair. why are combodecks able to play handtraps and calledby. they should need the consistency of running more engine.

[@zakariaelhimer1325]

Just because we had this for so much time, doenst mean it's trash card game design .

[@Adam0193Official]

I think you meant to say "doesn't mean it isn't trash card game design" because it is.

[@TheGreatPewpyOne]

imagine having this dogshit of a take lmao

[@GaussianEntity]

The game has literally promoted combos since the beginning of time. If it was trash, people wouldn't play it. People clearly like it, so it's not trash.

[@galaxydragon8326]

i believe that if your combo needs 30 min + play arounds handtraps, it deserves to be outed with 1 evenly matched.

[@hikar1_]

Counter point, my combo deck that lasts 5 mins and ends on 2 interruptions loses 10x harder to evenly cus barrone is banned.

[@TodaWars]

​@@hikar1_ Power creep. Lack of limitations. You got to thank them for it. Does it suck yes. Is a pure gouki or spyral deck bad not by a long shot. If you add all the other cards and lack of limitations is where it becomes broken. I agree that the posible end boards, hand traps, floodgates and board breakers are too strong. Issue there you have to hit all at the same time. To get to a more "balanced" state. Konami is making progress with limiting more and more floodgates if not banning them. Every hand trap should be at least semi limited. Same for board breakers and combo deck be hit in general. This takes time.

[@lyncario5515]

@@hikar1_ Woah, it's almost as if hitting the cards needed by weaker decks but fully remplacable by stronger decks will result in even more of a power imbalance rather, how crazy.

[@Voupes]

"If you don't like this unhealthy thing in the game don't play yugioh" is a bad take. Yugioh is capable of having good formats with decks that don't end in boards which feel like pulling teeth to play into, I'd argue the format after arise-heart's ban was one of the best and most fun we've had. It's not that every now and then there is a completely busted deck that breaks the meta, the issue is how often it's happening now. When we eventually get around having Yubel and Snake Eyes get hit by the banlist properly I think the format will be fine. Ryzeal doesn't even look that bad either.

[@TwistedBOLT]

Here's how I see it: The quality of a game of YUGIOH (and most competitive games for that matter) can easily be measured by the number of meaningful, unique decisions made by the player that made LESS of those decisions that game. The higher that number is, the better the game is. If one player went first, followed a spreadsheet that just requires 1-2 decisions and ended on an unbreakable board so powerful that the going second player had no chance to break it, the number of decisions is fairly low. If a player went second, ignored everything the opponent did and played one card that breaks said board, then only made 1-2 decisions building their own board or OTK'ing that's also not a very good game.. If a player goes first and monke-flips floodgates that's also a non-game most of the time. However if you had a back-and forth where every single decision matters in an attempt to outsmart the opponent the number of decisions goes through the roof. Ideally if you want what's best for the game you'd want it to be interactive, not just a zero-sum game where only the winner is having fun. You want combo to NOT be pseude-FTK. You want control to NOT be stun. You want midrange to NOT completely overload the opponent with interactions making decisions pointless. You want a going second deck to NOT always end the game on the spot or lose. Yugioh has had these issues forever in various amounts but just because something bad has been normalized does not mean that people should just accept it. Wanting the game to be better because we know just how much potential it has and being told that "the game might not be for you" is just disheartening. If the game isn't for me then why am I constantly having so much fun playing with friends when we all agree to play decks that are built in a way that promotes interactivity rather than just playing to win. And if it's so easy for a bunch of undedicated players to make a format that's more fun than advanced, why can't Konomi's designers use their experience and wisdom do the same and make cards that promote that kind of gameplay as well? If you're fine with the issues the game has, Farfa, that's perfectly fine, but don't attempt to dismiss opinions by saying that the game might not be for someone just because they have issues with the current state of the game.

[@thatlonewolfguy2878]

Honestly based take

[@rufuspilula247]

Completely agree on those points. Combo shouldn't ultra-consistently FTK and control shouldn't just stop you from playing the game. Any card that allows these things should be banned or reworked.

[@korbbles4725]

I feel like him explaining how this player can explicitly play around the fact evenly matched was flip with 2+ negates is exactly why "combo" is a massive issue right now (the real issue being their recursion and 1 card combos.)

[@hexata2123]

setting 5 and passing basically achieves the same outcome as a 20min combo

[@watcher2624]

No?

[@koukisetsu]

yes

[@pamonja4301]

Loses to more stuff, but yeah most of the time is the same thing

[@user-mq1ng6sj7b]

The advice of "yugioh probably isn't for you if you don't enjoy this type of gameplay" is reasonable and I completely agree from the mindset of someone looking to have a hobby that is worth their time. But that's kind of a major issue because that is why so many people have completely lost interest in the game recently. It's boring to watch, it's a waste of time to play most of the time and the occasional really fun match where your decisions felt like they mattered a ton don't make up for it, and it's way way way too expensive for a game where you're just watching people play their extremely long combo Even when you win a game because you used evenly matched to wipe out an absurd endboard, it's hard to really feel satisfied with that win beyond just patting yourself on the back for making the right tech card picks in deck building. And that's all fine and dandy, but it's a far cry from almost any other game in general where you are engaged the whole time in the matches and your moment to moment decisions matter a lot more than just activating a singular card you happened to draw into Because of this, I actually completely disagree with the idea that yugioh is fine as just a bunch of unskippable cutscenes and "did you draw the out" gameplay loops. Instead. If they want to make these type of wombo combos a thing, then they should just make both players be able to play on each others turn in a lot more decks similar to how tear mirrors worked when dweller wasn't made. Every deck should have 4 playsets of starters that let you play on your opponents turn. It sounds crazy, but I would much prefer that to what we currently have where I either drew my out or I didn't against a 13 minute combo Farfa brings up how reasoning gate was and inzektors were a thing even back in older yugioh. Which I don't see as a defense but more so as a way to explain that card design has just always been frustrating and horrible. Because wind up, dino rabbit, inzektor format was quite possibly one of the singular worst formats any card game has ever seen and reasoning gate matches were unbelievably sacky. Very few people enjoyed this type of gameplay even back in older formats. Firewall FTKs are another wombo combo deck that everyone absolutely hated among a ton of others. People in general just hate this style of gameplay - TLDR: He's right in a sense. Yugioh genuinely isn't a game for you anymore if you actually want to avoid "just draw the out" gameplay loops. You should quit playing for your own financial and mental well being or atleast only play older formats and/or custom formats without quite this much wombo combo nonsense I just feel like the game doesn't have to be this way and it's such a massive shame it turned out like this now

[@MrKrachachla]

playing secong in MD is so unfun, You waiting 20min for your turn and after that 60% of the time you cant do anything :(

[@AnRuixuan]

Combo decks aren't bad for the game. 1-card starters are bad for the game.

[@GaussianEntity]

Can we go back to 1.5 card starters? That was a decent drawback to powerful engines.

[@Kintaku]

“Go play a mana game” That literally solves none of these problems. MTG gets wild and even a more “simple” game like DBS Fusion World can set up crazy stuff early game

[@GaussianEntity]

Yeah if anything, mana games are worse because handtraps (minus a few notable exceptions, I know about Force of Will) are nonexistent.

[@Kintaku]

@@GaussianEntity yeah true. MTG has some useful interruptions but in my limited experience, there are a lot of times where you really just have the illusion of a chance to win.

[@nikolaitheundying]

​@@GaussianEntity local man doesn't know what an instant is.

[@GaussianEntity]

@@nikolaitheundying An instant is literally a quickplay spell. You need mana to use it. Or what, do these instants fix the combo-centric formats? No, right?

[@Lewt_2B]

the problem right now is that engine can't play into boards anymore, and you need at least 3 hand traps or at least 2 board breakers + engine. the player going 1st only needs engine.

[@GaussianEntity]

This is why Komoney needs to reel it back a bit and design towards allowing strong decks to play into the board while also giving combo decks something decent to end on. We had it pretty good before Snake-Eyes honestly.

[@TaylorLeprechaun]

Haven't watched the video but yacine was involved so I'm instantly on the side of whoever is dunking on him

[@guillermomedel1575]

Amen

[@SuperSilverSerpent]

What's wrong with Yacine?

[@georgejordan100]

Why?

[@nigamnation]

Yacine is farfa's cousin

[@Dinsho_]

what did the guy do to you??

[@Some._.Random._.Person]

Wombo combo decks shouldn’t be able to auto win on a guaranteed line. The only decks that should have that potential are the decks where you have some luck like with milling or drawing. And even then, that randomness shouldn’t make it guaranteed.

[@MassimoParadisi95]

I think this is not an issue of this board should or should not exist, I think it can be fine to exist if it was a 3-4 card combo that left you with little followup, but this can be done with 1-2 cards combos leaving your hand either with followup for next turn or handtraps to further strengthen the board, I think voiceless power level should be the max 1 card combo should lead to, 1 lo is 1 omni+trap+sauravis and that should be strong enough, this is just too much

[@trustianoc2107]

As an outsider to YGO its crazy that you guys have normalized "FTK" or "OTK" as something a deck should be doing or else its trash.

[@DragonTank1400]

I think it is more that you just play casual Yu-Gi-Oh with your friends then just stop playing Yu-Gi-Oh. People can enjoy Yu-Gi-Oh outside of tournaments, you don't have to be competitive to enjoy playing Yu-Gi-Oh.

[@ryuuohdeltaplus7936]

The thing is, the TCG community is too hyperfocused on the meta and being competitive that they cannot conceive of playing Yugioh outside of tournaments. They constantly follow the latest meta trends, and they minmax build their decks to fight against the meta. The concept of "casual duels" is inconceivable to them.

[@AoyagiMei]

Except I can still show up to locals to play with friends casually, and other players just need to chime in about how my deck is unoptimized or has bad ratios, or is missing current format countering handtraps etc. The problem is also largely rooted in the community. I moved on to other TCGs largely because of this. The only time my YGO cards gets some air is when I have friends or family come over that play.

[@Emmix_342]

@@AoyagiMei That depends on everyone else's locals, and it's great to hear you have locals on a more causal level, but sadly that ain't everyone's case, to give myself for example, I only have 2 locals in my vicinity and on both of them everybody is decked out with meta, you tryhard like them or you don't even think about showing yourself.

[@AoyagiMei]

@@Emmix_342 Yeah I'm grateful that I still have friends who will play casually. It does help that the store supports a variety of card games, so you have casual yugioh players who main other TCGs. But the Yugioh mains are very competitive and toxic by comparison.

[@Nightwolf739]

I think the issue is interactivity. A board of 7+ negates is just as uninteractive as a board of floodgates. They’re both uninteresting to play against and create game states where the player playing into the board has very little agency.

[@rubenbrito4166]

"game always had x" is not a good excuse

[@Bait154]

Ocg always had maxx C 🙃

[@nouvelle147]

What's wrong with "Game always had x, so if you don't like x the game might not be for you?"

[@rubenbrito4166]

@@nouvelle147 becuase of something is bad, always having the bad doesn't make it good, you don't throw players away, that attitude is why we keep getting issues with new players, yugioh needs change

[@nouvelle147]

@@rubenbrito4166 "Bad" is very subjective. What I'm saying is, you have a vision that's not similar with the game itself, so you want the game to change

[@monkfishy6348]

"Strong Combo Decks have always existed", is a very weak argument (putting aside the obvious, that this is a logical fallacy - appeal to tradition). While Combo Decks which try to win on turn one have always existed, never in Yugioh's history have they been as resilient to interruption as post-POTE top decks, nor were they as consistent (outside of an extreme minority). They were very consistent at the time, but by modern standards they have very poor consistency. On resiliency, you pointed it out yourself. Yacine was going to win through THREE POWERFUL BOARD BREAKERS, had he done the combo correctly. If someone doesn't think this is an issue, they are absolutely insane. So I agree with you there. We're almost at the point of Konami needing to print "Make your opponent banish face-down all cards they control. Your opponent cannot activate cards or effects in response to this card's activation." for a board breaker to actually be a board breaker, which is peak ludicrous. The power level needs to come down because this is simply not fun and I do not want to see Konami keep taking Yugioh in this direction.

[@Jack_Rakan]

As far as I am concerned, Yu-Gi-Oh has just become too ludicrous. 1 or 2 cards in your starting hand should neither be able to create OR break that type of board.

[@superhume]

"Just dont play yugioh" What a horrible take, just because this happens every couple formats doesn't mean this is acceptable.

[@Moman1898]

I think having this opinion is fine but if you have this opinion, then you have no right to complain about Maxx C (and fuwaross) which are designed as hard counters to pseudo ftk's. You also should not be complaining about stun because stun is just a pseudo-ftk with less steps.

[@FarfaHighlights]

Complaining about Fuwalos in TCG and Maxx C in master duel, which are just individual cards, is different to complaining about the concept of combo decks because that is a whole game mechanic of yugioh.

[@Moman1898]

@@FarfaHighlights not really? They're individual cards that exist as a response to that game mechanic. Surely you shouldn't be allowed to have that game mechanic (pseudo-ftk combo decks) and be allowed to dictate what counts as an appropriate response to that mechanic

[@renaldyhaen]

@@FarfaHighlights And you forget those heavy combo decks usually only an individual deck too. They're not represent majority decks in the format. There are a lot of new decks in a year. And 1-2 heavy combo decks are not the right thing to represents "Yugioh in general". Because Konami also release a lot of decks without crazy combo.

[@babrad]

​@@Moman1898I will assume from what I've heard from Farfa in general that he means such card design is problematic because it punishes the player for playing the game. Meanwhile cards like Evenly reward the going second player for utilizing them while punishing the going first player for not playing around it as well as potentially wasting all their resources. So they are more skillful (the reference to Yacine missplaying, Evenly DRNM would do nothing to Yubel, now THAT is a problem when it comes from 1 card combo) Maxx C and Mulchurmies feel really cheap, uninteractive, are essentially lingering floodgates, require no investment in deck building for them but force everyone to deckbuild around them potentially eliminating every deck that doesn't have space for 9 mandatory slots.

[@plantseason290]

Handtraps turned every deck into combo, because handtraps were made too powerful and generic that just resolving one turned off all non combo decks turns

[@lordradiance2530]

No? Purrely was a deck until it got hit, its not combo its midrange. Branded is pretty midrangey in the sense it doesnt summon alot and grinds well. Centurion in master duel literally just makes phalanx blazar/supernova and grinds you out. Labyrynth is undeniably midrange

[@mileserwin]

This is the correct comment. The fact that so many powerful and generic hand traps exist that just reduce the game to "either you have 5 extenders in hand or you lose" is the problem. As much as people like to bitch, combos aren't the problem. End boards are. 20 points of interaction that prevent any response is the problem. Plenty of decks have the capacity to combo off forever. Fewer decks actually do anything with those combos. If we were just going to give them ways to play around them, hand traps were always going to be overshadowed. I'm just waiting for the day midrange dies, but maybe that day has already passed.

[@felixdaniels37]

Yeah, handtraps were never a solution to this issue. If anything they only accelerated powercreep because it encouraged Konami to keep printing decks that danced around them, while said decks were still able to use said handtraps themselves.

[@plantseason290]

​@lordradiance2530 a deck having defensive tools doesn't mean it's not combo. Any deck that consistently get it's near if not perfect endboard Uninterupted is a combo deck.

[@lordradiance2530]

@@plantseason290 that is the biggest reach of a definition i have ever seen. By your logic everything that isnt stun is combo and that is literally just false. If you can look me in the eye and say decks like purrely yubel branded centurion and rescue ace are all the same then you should reconsider how you use definitions.

[@catanaoni]

It's like the whole thing with Nadu in mtg. The designers are clueless about seemingly obvious things and don't do enough testing, so once thousands of people get their grippers on the cards, a bunch of unintended interactions pop up.

[@markextint3024]

Ah yes the classic dont play yugioh gatekeep solution, this is why no change is happening

[@HapsterHap]

"Just don't play" - words uttered to a dying community. We know, and people aren't. I have 3 locals within 30 minutes of me and 5 within an hour. Yugioh doesn't even fire most nights anymore, whereas it was 10-20 people just a year or two ago.

[@pickyphysicsstudent201]

It is fun to open the nutz combo line & pop off. It is also fun to play an interesting back 'n' forth with decks of similar power level. Issue is these two experiences are at odds. You can't have 100 step combo ending on 1000 negates vs blow out cards, as well as interesting resourceful dynamic back 'n' forths.

[@santiagopepaj7525]

Mucho texto incoming I get the "well it is what it is, and if you complain every time then maybe it just isn't the game for you", but I definitely do not agree on the take I think that Yugioh evolved in a way that I wouldn't consider to be a good game design; Lose dice roll=lose match, one card combos, 20 minutes turns in an noninteractive gameplay, deckbuiliding limited by the necessity to use the same 10+ handtraps, counters that do not counter, or counters that are ftk-level broken basically for free, and a lot more of fun stuff. I do consider all the mentioned aspects to be objective issues in a card game, and if I complain is because I love THIS game and its mechanics (I don't care about MTG, Lorcana or whatever, I want THIS game to be as good as possible), and I also know that it is possible to balance the game (even rombo-combo decks) in a way that leads into an interactive and more fun gameplay. for me, the best example is the Tear format, sadly the deck was too far ahead of its time and powercrept the shit out everything else, but design whise it was maybe the best. But the current state of the game? Nah, sorry but it ain't it. And the fact that is nothing new does not make it somewhat somehow justifiable I also find it funny how for some people 1-card-noninenteractive-9-interruption-combo decks = VERY GUD YES, but the same pople when it comes to stun decks = NOOO STUN BAD STUN TOXIC BAN TRAP >:C lol Conclusion: the problem are not combo decks per se but messed up game balance and card design

[@thatlonewolfguy2878]

Honestly I 100% agree with this, its a game balance/card design issue and Konami have shown they're capable of banning toxic cards, they just need to be willing to stop printing more and more archetypes that can play through like 3 handtraps in a single turn, its not healthy for the game, nobody enjoys basically having a deck in the format that is just so much more absurdly powerful than anything else, its why stun decks are a necessity to keep the big wombo combo 17 billion negates tier 1 decks in check at this point, its why your point about crying about stun decks while thinking decks like Snake Eyes are okay for the game is an absurdly bad take, you can't have it both ways

[@elemomnialpha]

In concept no, in execution yes The problem isn't the ability to combo it's what they've allowed to combo *into* Combo's power should be the ability to build a larger board than other play styles but they SHOULDN'T be allowed to interact with their opponent on THEIR turn in exchange outside of battle phase shenanigans

[@chrisb.2028]

Then where does that leave raigeki, feather duster and mst? and evenly?, if you can't put out a form of disruption OUTSIDE of the battle phase, then what's the point of doing anything turn one except making chaos max if every other action the previous turn is negated by board breakers?

[@EmperorAzriel]

Honesty, Yugioh should be like this : Combo beats Control, Control beats Stun and Stun beats Combo but its more like Combo beats both.

[@GaussianEntity]

If combo beat stun, we wouldn't see so much stun complaints lol

[@CloudStrife0896]

I quit YGO irl because of Kash/Tear and I come back to MD after years, get to Masters with Branded, and am so sick and tired of Yubel and the trash banlist that slapped it on the wrist that I don't think I'll sit through the grind vs the meta slaves running nothing but that glue eating basically Link-0 Yubel "'"Fusion""

[@kaikawasumi]

Branded player complaining about other combo decks? Super-poly? Lost? Sanctifier? That deck literally tries to play solitaire & combo through anything. It's even a meme that basically only they get a main phase 3. Stop it lololol

[@GrEEnF1Re1]

@@kaikawasumi Branded players are the most ilogic of all players "Oh poor me, i have a spell card that stop any interactions with fusions, we are so weak!!!"

[@EmperorAzriel]

Opponents fault for not having a spell/trap negate honestly

[@palaceknight8644]

I think we need more cards like Kurikara. It's part hand trap, part board breaker. It doesn't stop your opponent from playing the game, but it does punish your opponent for using a lot of disruptions. I think a card that's a bit stronger than Kurikara is now, but similar in application would be a nice change to the "all hand traps" or "all board breakers" style of deck building.

[@GaussianEntity]

I think we need more Bystial-style cards. Cards that come into play by disrupting some part of your opponent's side and having further disruptive effects.

[@mr.ethechromeleonpaladin8898]

I think the issue with yubel is not in that it's a "combo deck" but rather that the deck just lacks a choke point that can be exploited like most other decks. Branded for instance you ash the fusion spell and imperm or lubellion the aluber, turn just ends for the most part when any of those 3 occur. Yubel has no such choke point with so much gas I can play through 1 entire board with only one of 3 possible starter lines.

[@GaussianEntity]

True. The only real chokepoint it has is preventing the Nightmare Pain from coming down. But then it still has a formidable Unchained endboard

[@pickyphysicsstudent201]

Yugioh has somewhat become the meme of "Thinking about X vs actually doing X".

[@01Ichirei10]

As a combo player, hell yeah getting hit with a meaty evenly matched is satisfying even if im on the receiving end. +1 since it's yacine.

[@chrisb.2028]

A shame we evenly doesn't have an animation in md, it should.

[@P4brotagonist]

I think all card games are going this way. In the last 3-4 years, the Pokemon TCG has accelerated so fast it's not even a mana game anymore. So much energy acceleration you are ready to go and hit full power the first turn you are able to attack. It's basically like, play Chess or bust.

[@rufuspilula247]

There's 3 issues with new combo decks that old ones didn't have. (tldr at the end) (I'm not counting infinite loop decks or decks that use badly designed cards that are still banned. Those are universally hated and were generally banned immediately after being discovered.) 1. _Old combo decks didn't end on negates or didn't end on more than a single negate._ Reasoning-Gate, Demise OTK (if you can call that a combo deck), Mind Master OTK, and other pre-2010 combo decks usually just ended on 1-3 big chungus monsters and aimed to OTK through battle damage, with basically 0 protection if the attack fails. So they were very weak to battle stopping and effect negation and often couldn't play through those. The first combo decks that used negates only appeared in Synchro era with Six Sams and Naturia/Plant (unless you count Reasoning-Gate decks turboing Jinzo as a "negate"), but even those usually just ended on a single negate (at least once they were hit by the banlist). 2. _Old combo decks weren't as consistent nor could they recover as easily_ If you didn't open the exact 3-6 cards you needed OR if your opponent negated one card, you didn't have "the combo" until maybe 3-5 turns into the game. Which meant other deck types could compete during those turns. Compared to modern combo decks which all have a RotA, a Stratos, a Destiny Draw, a Foolish and an E-Teleport. So they automatically have 10+ starter cards. Not to mention GY effects which enable effortless recovery. Cards like Mezuki, Plaguespreader and Spore were limited for a long time, meanwhile all modern archetypes have their equivalents to those. And in most cases, a single card can do multiple of the above mentioned effects. Limiting such effects behind archetypes does absolutely nothing. There's no difference between a generic goodstuff deck and an archetypal deck if they do the same thing with the "same" cards. The historically consistent combo decks were usually enabled by a single badly designed card, rather than a bunch of +1 combo pieces. What this all means is that Yugioh has become a game where combo decks are no longer punished for failing, which is completely antithetical to what combo decks are in every other card game and even in pre-Pendulum era of Yugioh. 3. _Old combo decks didn't have nearly as many actions per turn, aside from those which aimed to perform infinite loops._ This is caused by issue 2 - consistency cards. If every card grabs something from the deck or graveyard, and also has a second effect activated from the GY, well then that's an issue. Because you end up watching your opponent play 10+ cards each turn, which isn't really fun. Instead of printing multiple search cards for each archetype, they should've just lowered the minimum deck size by 5-10. It would have the same exact effect except it wouldn't require these frivolous actions caused by E-Telly/RotA/Stratos/Foolish/D-Draw equivalents for each archetype. And this would result in a much more enjoyable playing experience. This is the reason why retro formats and singleton/highlander formats like Trinity feel more fun to people who don't play modern. Those players just enjoy the less consistent version of the game with less actions taken per turn. Because playing a game where each player has ten 1 minute turns is much more enjoyable than playing a game where each player has one/two 10 minute turns (even if the game is one-sided). Also, the mentioned Infernity combo deck was hated by almost everyone and Konami banned or limited the combo pieces in response (Launcher is still limited in TCG because no Roach). Meanwhile, the current design philosophy of the game makes every new archetype even stronger than Infernity ever was. So the players who quit the game because of decks like Infernity, Wind Up handloop, PePe or Zoo are the same people who complain about the modern game. No point in telling those people "just play a retro format, custom format or an old video game" because they're probably already doing that. And if they're not playing yugioh, they're probably not watching yugioh related videos like this one. Tldr: - The game is too consistent - The game turns take too long (because of consistency cards) - The end boards are too good - The recovery is too good - The above points are caused by power creep and the game is doomed to (at some point) either make a 1000+ card banlist, 1000+ card erratas or introduce set rotation. And MOST IMPORTANTLY: *The existence of historical toxic combo decks does not excuse the current state of the game*

[@debbachedebbache5182]

the plant player had DRNM,evenly and droplet. there is nothing that Yacine could have done

[@Emmix_342]

And if Julius hadn't opened exactly that hand, there is nothing he could have done either, it's messed up, games are decided by the coin flip if you go first, and games are decided by luck if you go second, that's just not healthy for a game man no matter how much one tries to defend it.

[@nopeno-s5r]

plant best deck lets goooooo

[@dakeyress]

there once was a time where not all new cards had 3 effects

[@winter9348]

I'm okay with big combo board AS LONG AS: - it requires 2 and 3 cards - it does not involves floodgates in the end of the combo - can be stopped by handtraps without having every extender as a 1 card starter Like heroes ,swoswo w/o protos, branded w/o puppet, or tear w/o winda Hell I don't even have a problem against yubel either tbh, just the iblee lock

[@arjanzweers6542]

This type of discussion is also related to Konami's tendency to use bandaid fix cards to deal with problems like these type of combo decks and the spiral of power creep it causes. Combo is fine, and cards that punish combo are fine, but blow-out cards that win games on their own and the type of boards combo puts up on the field is not good for the game. Losing to combo because you sit there for 10 minutes and you are unable to interact wih it feels awful, and being blown out by a card like Evenly and losing to it feels awful. Konami really needs to re-evualuate how they design combo decks and what they want them to do with their end board as well as the cards that counter them.

[@InsolentCrow]

"Are Combo Decks bad for Yu-Gi-Oh!?" For me, the answer is yes. Absurd combo yugioh is what drove me out of the game years ago at this point. As Farfa said, it wasn't a game for me anymore because it kept pushing harder and harder into an aspect of the game I found deeply unenjoyable. If people find enjoyment in spreadsheet yugioh then good on them, I'm genuinely happy they enjoy it, but I just don't understand what they see in it.

[@verlisto7146]

The era where going 2nd cards are considered a meta threat, then maybe we can look towards a better back and forth game of yugioh

[@guillermorobledo2842]

Coin flip goes on... Me: please go first, please go first. Opponent: goes first. Me: faq yeah! Opening Hand: Evenly Matched, Jizukiru, Infinite Impermanence, Nibiru, Cyber Dragon Herz... Oh yes...

[@LynnLyns]

I think he saw the opponent hand and had evenly + drnm so it didn't even mattered if he had barudras like everyone was saying.

[@andleepfarooqui7874]

I think you're kind of wrong? While Reasoning Gate is a strong option in Goat, it's definitely not as consistent as the top 3 of Chaos Turbo or Goat Control or anti-meta Warrior. It's also more of a turn 2 deck.. OTK the opponent, not build a board.

[@andleepfarooqui7874]

Even with Airblade, the deck struggles going first in the mirror.

[@CC-kp7ge]

Didn't every deck that Farfa mentioned get hit by bans? If they were fine and people shouldn't talk about how unhealthy they were, why were they hit by bans to reduce their power? L take

[@NCI-v4x]

'Not to say you're wrong if you disagree with it, but if you do you should probably quit the game' is certainly one of the takes of all time. I think the funniest thing about it is that it's true, too.

[@nopeno-s5r]

agreed. there are other card games which are less combo-oriented than yugioh. if you have a problem with combo, don't play yugioh, bc that's what the game is

[@randomUser2121]

yes combo decks are toxic and should insta lose to nibiru

[@dudono1744]

Maybe not insta lose, but should be affected harder by disruption than other decks.

[@AG30]

Blame Apollo for why they can even play through nib these days in MD or phantom because it’s so fair it can be summoned 3 times in the same turn

[@augustgremaud2738]

“Yugioh might not be for you” might be true for a new player, but aimed at a veteran of the game, it makes little sense. Someone who started in 2017 would only know the modern gameplay style of 1-card “combos” and “just draw the out” ‘counterplay’, but they’d have only played for 7 years of a 25 year old game. Less than a quarter! Meanwhile, someone who started in 2005 Goat Format would have played for 19 years, nearly thrice as long, and for 12 of those years the gameplay loop was very different. Yugioh was always unbalanced, but for 3/4 of its lifespan the gameplay was more interactive and distinct from the modern game. Joining late then telling veteran players that the game they’ve played for thrice as long as you “might not be for them” is dismissive, and disregards the majority of the game’s history. Yugioh is defined far more by its past than its present. Games change and evolve and power creep is inevitable, but Konami did not have to fundamentally alter the design of cards and the incipient play style in the particular ways they did. If someone only likes the playstyle of the most recent few years of the game, perhaps Yugioh on the whole is instead not for them. Time Wizard is more indicative of the average Yugioh experience than modern and it’s not even close. Respectfully, I love your videos and everything you do for this game and its community but I think this take lacks nuance.

[@GaussianEntity]

I've played since before Goat. The game is the same lol. All the multi-turn back and forth people describe has basically been condensed to the handtrap battle turn 1 and 2. Omni negates weren't a thing back then? No, we had Thousand Eyes Restrict summoned off a token, BLS running you over, Chaos monsters getting rid of your stuff, Monarchs also getting rid of your stuff, and all the broken spell/trap cards that would win before you got a chance to play + a long death animation (playing the game for 20 turns despite losing on turn 1 by Trap Dustshoot). Sorry, the game is the same today as it was years ago. And that's why I still play it lol.

[@NocriZle]

Saying combo is allowed but wanting to ban floodgates is moronic. The ability to stun combo out of the games should always be an option

[@babrad]

Yet if you have noticed, combo is the reason a majority of floodgates are banned. Because if you back up combo with floodgates it's almost unbearable

[@phoenix5095]

Combo is the literal reason floodgates get banned setting up a full board and the sitting on a floodgate on top is literally ftk

[@CMaxoknight31]

I really miss Unchained or rather AGOV format, haven't really played ygo since... maybe it's really time to move on but god do I love this game

[@lekunga8042]

Short answer: Yes.

[@Ascalon90-0]

The problem aparent with this is the over-relientness on Monter-Effects. Bord-brakers should be more common and we need more Spell-Combo-Decks. If you build a 5 Negates bord, there should be a Spell/Trap negate in it.

[@MasterQuestMaster]

Hearing the initial statement, I was like „But does Evenly win against this tough?“ Good to see Farfa thinks the same way.

[@densai89]

The main issue with combo decks is there are very little to no restrictions on most archetypes, especially the newer archetypes. There are requirements, like Fire King needing Fire monsters to pop but you're not locked into summoning only Fire King for the turn, you're not locked into Fire monsters, etc. Some restrictions come very late into the combo like Promethean Princess, but that restriction is negligible because we all know the best Fire monster in the game is Zealantis for OTKs. Add heavier restrictions to [1 card full] combo starters to reduce the ceilings of some of these decks. JOKINGLY: Halq wasn't the problem, it was all the other tuners! You're not locked into Crystron, you're not locked into Synchros for the rest of the turn. Instead of fixing the root causes, just put a band-aid on it by banning cards. Then release more broken cards and repeat the cycle. OCG is releasing more omni-negates faster than TCG can ban them. Konami is willfully ignorant.

[@NyaaPaw44]

My favorite part of watching the Yubel Deck, is when Evenly Match resolves and the opponents rage scoops.

[@f5673-t1h]

"We've been doing something wrong for so long, we shouldn't change it" -Farfa

[@esrohm6460]

yugoih always was about wombo combo but we probably did too much when every deck in the game is my 1 card makes move interactions than your starting hand has cards in it. like at that point what even means power creep anymore how could cards be better than that and can we truly say whatever comes out of that is something we want to even imagine. like decks are no longer allowed to have any weakness and at that point what is the actual difference between snake eyes and yubel. like for real what is the difference when both are i have 1 card that gets the card that gets the card that gets the card auto combos and literally 0 card combos for the next turn

[@andleepfarooqui7874]

People point out that they had Dark Ruler and Droplet as well but I think 3 cards to beat the 2-card combo is fine.

[@rougetierduelist2497]

It wouldn’t be so bad if cards were more accessible. Players want to play good decks but most of the time they are priced out. I would be playing yubel or snake eyes but it is so expensive I have to resort to playing white forest runick. Still a good deck but not my first pick merely because of price.

[@DeityofDestiny]

tbh, I just don't like evenly as a boardbreaker, since I feel like it gatekeeps decks that can't function after being hit by it far more than it actually counters any top decks. which yeah yeah, shitty pet deck losing to x strong card is nothing new, but when it feels like the function is primarily just hurting the weaker decks while the other decks don't care, then similarly, I genuinely think that there's a world where the generic backrow wipes could get banned again, so long as the brigade of floodgates and other backrow tools than can essentially autowin were mass addressed. do I think it would ever happen though? absolutely not anyways, as far as combo goes, imo linear spreadsheet combo is boring af but at least "easier" to interact with. nonlinar combo though, I personally find can be insanely fun, but at that point, interaction against can be super frustrating

[@kaikawasumi]

Rare informed take. You clearly played during a lot of the XYZ & Synchro formats where we had toolbox decks & decision making in combo deck vs combo deck mattered. We just need more toolbox style deck design & less 1 card deals with a board or builds a board of omni-negates or an equivalency.

[@benjacobsen9251]

Kinda true though. People may not remember infernity being able to hand loop and set up omnis turn 1 consistently back in the day

[@nerfirelia8235]

The thing is combo decks can exist while also being healthy. TOSS is a great example. Combo decks weren't really setting up infinite negate boards, but we're still versatile. Most decks could out those boards with minimal non engine and resolving evenly didn't automatically win the game. The best board Orcust put up was ip babel pass. Compare that to what we've had from covid onward and it's night and day.

[@siinuxxblume5123]

There is no deck pre frog ftk that was used to make an unbreakable board consistently. Reasoning gate decks dont do it. "Chaos" decks both BLS and CED are not first turn monsters. Gladiator beasts format/DAD format are strictly good because of their go 2nd cards (DAD and gyzarus) one of them has a frequently used BATTLE effect. Decks ran the 2100 Def Glad beast to have your oppo crash into it and summon the pop 1 monster glad or bestiari. Teledad doesnt make unbreakable first turn boards. So all the meta decks from pre frog ftk and the samurai bs that came after that, had interaction, even during synchro era. The best turn 1 board to protect yourself in teledad is solemn + stardust and even that loses to MST + 1 rescuecat -> gojo guardian and like 20 other cards. Playing back then with games that go back and forth and watching the abundance of handtraps right now just to keep combo in check sometimes makes this comment "this is just yugioh" sound insane.

[@augustgremaud2738]

The problem I have with this take is that combo decks didn’t always play this way (1-card “combos” and pseudo-FTKs forcing decks to include outs that MUST be drawn or you can’t play, which isn’t skillful). As someone who played competitively from 2008-2015 and casually since for monetary reasons, combo has always existed, but was much more vulnerable to counterplay. Out an overextending Six Samurai player and they weren’t coming back easily next turn. The rare problem card like Wind-Up Hunter or Shock Master could be banned because that play style wasn’t yet ubiquitous. For anyone who fell in love with that more give-and-take style of play, where combos came with risks and knowing when to play conservatively was a necessary skill, it’s been frustrating seeing the game transform into something much less interactive. The cynical “you prefer T-set pass” line often bandied about doesn’t accurately represent the typical gameplay of most of Yugioh’s history. Plus, opening one or two fewer hands traps or board breakers than necessary and getting locked out of playing your first turn is even less interactive than a T-set. “Maybe Yugioh isn’t for you” might be true for a new player, but for the majority of Yugioh’s history, the game was very different. Telling that to a veteran player who’s seen that play style slowly slip through their fingers disregards that for the majority of the game’s history, the game WAS for them. If the modern “combo” playstyle is the only way a newer player enjoys the game, then for 2/3 of Yugioh’s history, the game was instead not for them. It’s sad that Time Wizard has only recently grown in popularity because Yugioh was not always this way and does not have to be.

[@hunterbachelder3480]

One minute in and my take so far is that if this board could be built with one card, it should be dismantled with one card

[@phoenix5095]

We need decks to be around the power level of unchained that deck was imo the perfect iteration of a ygo deck, easy to play heavily rewards optimal play, and sets up a board that lets the going second player to still be able to win and their interactions being healthy

[@Varudras]

3:51 So Memes aside, I believe it's one of the worst takes you could have. Or not you but in general: If you don't like X don't play X. I see where you're coming from but honestly an attitude like this and not address the problem a person have is potentially killing the game. Just for an example: People said the same for Concord, if don't like the Game, if don't like the art direction: Don't play the game. And we did. We didn't play the game, the game died. (Yes I know the problems Concord had besides Characters, it's just an example) Should combos like this be forbidden? No. Should we ignore people not liking this? No. Is there a solution? Yes? Officially support different formats in a greater scale to give people not like this play style an alternative. Will this completely stop people from complaining about combos? Absolutely NOT! But give them something else to enjoy except a niche "time wizard" side event which is essentially just GOAT. Enough yapping, any further thought?

[@ninjaugal3832]

Combo deck is good, but until you realize it eat too much time of the 2nd turn if they have nothing.

[@poom4535]

No one would really complain if both sides get to play, both side get to combo and go unga bunga hitting each others The point of combo is just "I'll play for 15 minutes so I can make you stop playing after 15 seconds"

[@f5673-t1h]

This is such a boot-licking video, Farfa. It's essentially "If you can conceive something better, go away because I don't like dissent".

[@nomnom2407]

I feel like, at some point, archetypes should xeno lock you. Yeah, we wouldn't have Ishizu Tear, Kash Tear ect, but I think that's for the best. Even TYPE locks don't mean shit anymore (debateable). Also, poor yacine :(

[@rocapbg9518]

Now replace combo in Farfa's take with stun and see how bad it truly is

[@GaussianEntity]

Stun is fine. Players are just bad.

[@khoibui4300]

true but also this way of thinking will make the game lose its player base and also cant get any new players into the game, but i’m still enjoying the game rn still maybe cause i’ve played this game too much that i just can’t stop

[@Chimeratech_O.D.]

Stuff like this is why I wish HOTU were taken seriously by more casual players; those evenings were the most fun I've ever had.

[@elizawada6583]

Do I think that the top board should exist in one turn of play? Yes. Having options established in preparation of my opponent's turn is a valid strategy that can make for interactions between both players. Do I think the the top board should be broken by a single card like that, and that they automatically lose from that position? Also yes, because if you're going to commit ALL your resources all at once without a plan for followup plays, you DESERVE to be punished for being short sighted and committing too many of your resources in the first place. My problem with Yugioh isn't so much that combo decks are a thing, or that they're very powerful, it has more to do with the DEFAULT strategy of Yugioh being "All or Nothing." Most decks' end goal is to just make a game state that the other player can't interact with, as fast as possible, and this isn't even exclusive to combo decks. As much as a most people probably don't want to hear this, a card like Mystic Mine functionally accomplishes the same end goal as these "big wombo combo" decks, which is "my opponent is only allowed to do as little as possible" which in a lot of cases is just nothing at all. However, Mystic Mine at least has one major advantage over combo decks, which is that it doesn't waste 10-20 minutes of my time jumping through arbitrary hoops while still functionally being the same end result. A strategy like Mystic Mine turbo even dies to single card like we see with that Yubel board, as all it takes to win is a Harpie's Feather Duster or a Twin Twister. This isn't me advocating for these floodgate cards either, I personally loathe and despise them and would very much like to see them all banned, but it feels REALLY difficult for me to say that the end result of each strategy doesn't feel similar. It would be disingenuous if I didn't at least acknowledge that there are far more cards that can interact with the Yubel board than can with Mystic Mine. However, if the end result is "I tried playing all my cards but I couldn't do anything and I've depleted all my resources trying" then this only really amounts to some negligible extra interactions, which while is better, really doesn't make the game that much more enjoyable. My problem with combo isn't that it makes the game too fast, it's actually the opposite in which the game feels TOO slow watching my opponent jump through a million hoops to make their end board, only to have a few points of interaction before the game concludes. This is why I like decks like Sky Striker, Paleozoic, Runick, etc (as long as you're not playing floodgates in these strategies) which use high power cards that accomplish things without having to waste too much time jumping through hoops, while also providing many meaningful points of interaction. Front loading all the interactions to the first two turns just doesn't seem all that healthy for a game that's supposed to be two player, because it just ends up boiling down the potential interactions to the same set of interactions between MOST duels. If you need evidence of this look at the handtraps we play, because there's a real possibility that they are some of the most played cards in the entire game's history, potentially by huge margins. Why? Because a card like Ash Blossom is almost never bad no matter the format, because its one of the only ways to interact with your opponent jumping through their hoops. This means that Ash Blossom becomes an auto include in almost every deck, not dissimilar to a card like Pot of Greed, because it's NEVER a bad/useless card. TLDR; Yugioh is an "All or Nothing" game. Watching my opponent jump through arbitrary hoops to make an end board is boring. There's a lack of interaction after my opponent builds their board. The pool of interactions while my opponent is hoop jumping is too few and too stale

[@neroneroren6788]

Yugiboomers will forget that back then a single raigeki was the same outcome as Evenly over here.

[@SkullEater78]

Combo decks were never really the problem, it’s the fact that some of them can keep going tru 2 disruptions and still make an oppressive board that is toxic for the game

[@friendmaker9210]

The big difference is that "break my board" decks from the past didn't have to contend with better board-breaker cards I think the game is better now honestly

[@d.r.6177]

Even with all the auto win boards, etc. It is still the best players that regularly win or do well. Ppl underestimate how difficult it is to use your interrupts correctly

[@GreywolfBillion]

I think if you dont like playing against combo decks, then thats perfectly okay! This game can definitely still be for you. Just with a few different options.... 1. Playing against friends where ya have more control on setting certain themes via maybe deck power level and etc. 2 . Playing at locals , but consider finding a local shop that has a consistency of decks being played that you enjoy playing against ( and not because its an easy win for you but because you generally find a fair and enjoyable challenge against it rather you loose or win) 3. This option is for the players doing local shop tournaments and higher. With this option , inform your self about what tournaments are going on in your local shops. Sometimes they may have non-meta tournaments. By no means will they be absent of combo decks but depending on the power level limits , you may not be facing a combo deck where your opponent can combo off from just one card. 4. Now if by this point you find all the other options useless then by all means become the villain 😂 . If you hate combo deck so much then run all the nasty board breakers and find a small main deck yugioh engine to play. Let your opponent combo off, dont worry , take the opportunity to relax while that happens. Check your phone , etc. Then when their turn is over , be respectful and give eye. After all you're about to rain down odin in the form of regeki , evenly, dark ruler , dark hole , kaiju slumber , harpie's feather duster , change of heart , book of eclipse , etc... And to give contact that no one asked for in the first place 🤣 but i play both otk, and mid/combo decks. Some of the decks ive play in the recent years has been dino x kaiju , floo and pure dragonmaids ! Shout out for the new dmaid support!! Just remember, the kind of experience you have with yugioh , if you want , can be completely in your control! Have fun! And be nice!!

[@addmolitionexe9573]

If full on combo board that allow you to instantly win the game or look your opponent out completely unless they draw the out are okay then floodgates and other stun mechanics are also fine right? They are functionally the same however for some reason people dont like stun but dont mind the combo decks. Both are bad for the game and only when the power of combo decks is reduced would i be fine with getting rid of some of the 1 card board breakers.

[@hisagi_shuhei5581]

Dafuq is that title. Combo decks were absolute cancer 50 Sets ago. Since then turns just extended from 5 to 15 minutes. Can't imagine a more fun and interactive game ...smh One game of modern Yugioh in the Anime would be fun as hell. The average meta sheeps summons as many monsters turn 1 as every character in Duel Kingdom combined. So basically, if you add stakes and side commentary we can make an entire ark out of just one turn, awesome and peak entertainment 🥱 I can see why so many people are quitting

[@jackgadsby1398]

I feel like the problem is not combo deck but access to strong generic monsters or spell/trap cards. For example appolousa and baron.

[@IVIaskerade]

Honest opinion, 1-card board breakers are fine. It punishes overextending, which is what a lot of decks do. They set up a board that says "answer me or lose" rather than setting up a moderate board with a few answers of their own. Yugioh in its ideal form is an attrition battle, not spending 10+ minutes setting up an unbeatable board that wins or loses on the spot.

[@animeshowfan8145]

Combo decks have always existed but my issue is theyve never been this stronf and everywhere. Like. Every deck you see at high level are all combo decks . Its escpally bad if you know a deck is strong agisnt yours. So your not just waiting for them to finish your just in your head thinking to your self you cant even win. And like you said. This stuff is why i dont really play anymore. The older formats had combo decks but notting like this i feel

[@animeshowfan8145]

Also just quickly on the reverse of this. I hate playing combo decks. The idea of remembering a actual spreedsheet to learn the same one or 2 combos for a single deck is not only boring i find but also very stressful. The idea i could just lose if i made a single mistake in a damn 7 minute combo and im meant to still go off for another 3 minutes is so awful. I also feel bad for the person im playing agsint. I feel like im actually wasting peoples time by going on some kind of long combo. Its just feel bads all around

[@GaussianEntity]

​@@animeshowfan8145 Meh people call them spreadsheet combos but it's more like visualizing Chess moves in advance. You memorize that stuff before playing a single serious game or you play it out to see what your opening hand can do. Some people like that stuff, myself included. The issue will always be counterplay.

[@raizen4597]

The problem that years ago combo could put you in a disadvantage (it was risky). Now comboing is so easy trough hand traps or simply you playi 18 hand traps just to win automatically in the spot thats how yugioh is... And the thing is, you cant change it unless you implement a new master rule.

[@HolliThatsMe]

Yugitubers: "Go play a different game if you don't like it" Their next 10 thumbnails: Yugioh is DYING?!? *red arrow pointing to foolish burial overlayed with farfa wearing a widow's veil and holding a bouquet of black roses*

[@Chimeratech_O.D.]

Tfw you realise people aren't obligated to pay £500 for handtraps and be combo'd, worse they actually listen to you.

[@HolliThatsMe]

@@Chimeratech_O.D. That's the real thing killing this game. I can't ever get invested in topics like this because the only answer I have for [What do you think is a healthy metagame?] is just "one I can actually afford to play"

[@anacreon212]

right now i think snake-eyes has kind exacerbated the issue since that is the face of the 1-card combo now where any 1 snake-eye card is full combo. We just want combo decks to be reeled in a bit where not every card in a archetype is both a combo starter and an extender.

[@mk30b25]

being able to break boards is what makes me happy.

[@utopic1312]

combos decks shouldn't be so powerful that they are the only thing that can be played in a format,it's one thing for a deck to be like salamangreat and a completely different thing for a deck to be like snake-eye,honestly if handtraps and other decks have to be more powerful to keep up the we might as well bring back Maxx ''C" as well as other powerful cards

[@TheFizio]

White forest just searching skill drain is not ok