Are Fly Line Loops Bad?

[@rustyknott-W.D]

I went from nail knot to loop many years ago and have never wanted to go back. I still have a spool with a nail knot and honestly, I can't tell the difference. I think it's mostly a matter of personal preference and nothing more. I've never had a loop fail. The line will always wear out before the loop does.

[@wschield608]

You’ve pointed out a couple of things when discussing Brian and Cliff’s preferences that made a lot of sense. A great unbiased comparison. I’ve nailed knotted my leader to a Wulff line because there was no loop and been very happy with it but for virtually everything else it’s loop to loop. Never had a problem. As always, thank you for posting.

[@greenhornflyhorn]

Re Wulff: The one line I have yet to try! Expensive up in Canada but hopefully it’s worth it. Thank you for watching

[@wschield608]

To be honest, I was very impressed!!! I don’t know what I was expecting but from the moment I put on a dry fly and tossed that first cast I was smiling. I hope at some point you get a chance to try it out and if you do I’d love to hear your feedback. Wes

[@ianflyfishmontana]

Great video, I think the advice to cut the loop is silly. Welded loops are out friend!

[@self-taught_angler]

If you think the loop is causing more splashes or reducing the sensitivity, there is an alternative solution: You can cut the loop and strip 3 inches of the fly line. Then you can tie a perfection loop with the braided core. (don't forget to aqua-seal the tip of the stripped fly line, where the coating ends, so that the water does not seep into the line. You need to do this when you cut the loop for the nail knot in your solution too.) This way the weight of the loop is reduced, and sensitivity is increased as well.

[@greenhornflyhorn]

That’s a pretty cool way! Have you ever tried splicing the leader into the fly line core? I used to do that with great results but some people don’t trust it. Learned that from Devin Olsen, he has a video on it.

[@self-taught_angler]

@@greenhornflyhorn I know that method, but do not like it. Cyanoacrylate glue (super glue) gets brittle and lose strength with repetitive exposure to water. So, his splices only last a season at most. In other words, the first couple outings you may fight big fish and think it works but it may fail the worst time as well. A decade ago, Loctite released a very flexible adhesive named 4902. It is very good for this purpose, but it is very expensive and hard to find. Also, when you open it, it has a shelf life. They should package it in small quantities. Maybe somebody should get a Loctite executive involved in fly fishing.

[@stanwright8583]

I'm working with kids... teaching Fly Fishing Merit Badge... It's hard enough teaching them to tye a hook/fly on a line. Would you trust them to tye a Nail Knot? 🤣 ... I love the Loop to Loop knot. Keep it Simple, Make it Fun. 🙂

[@gzeppe4671]

Curious how long can you use a floating dry fly line for before its time to replace it. I bought a reputable expensive one but is been 4 years and unsure if it is damaged in anyway but so far it still seems fine. I fish regularly all spring into early summer and again in the fall but dont fish frequently in the fall.

[@greenhornflyhorn]

Do you clean your fly line? If not begin there. After it’s nice and clean you can do an inspection of the line. Why I clean my fly line before inspecting for cracks/gouges etc is because dirt can give off the appearance of a worn fly line when in fact it’s fine. If it does in fact have cracks/grittiness to it, at that point it’s time to replace. If it loses its sheen and has a dull appearance it might not float/perform well, if that’s the case some line dressing can help prolong use but will eventually need replacement.

[@mattwright2964]

I used to be a casting instructor/guide and we always cut the loops off and nail knotted the leader on. You can either have the leader on full or have a short leader with a loop on that can flexibly have different rigs on. Why did we do this - you get better transfer of casting energy through the line and leader to fly and less disturbance. Wouldn't do it any other way.

[@JoelSzymczyk]

I used to be cool too. Now I'm just a guy who knows there is no 100% correct answer to anything in fly fishing.

[@smellybrainz]

I have a very similar opinion to you as well, and agree that versatility is far superior for many, especially newer anglers or those with less gear. Personally, I've cut off my loop and nail knotted a butt section to my standard dry fly/nymphing line, just like you do with your 4wt. I do this because I have another rod/reel, which 1. has interchangeable spools with different lines, and 2. has a wide number of uses, from big dries, streamers, multi nymph rigs, spey etc. I can't recommend enough getting a reel that is compatible with cheap polycarbonate spools for the versatility. Then maybe on one or several of those lines, you feel like nail knotting your leader directly would be beneficial, but you don't end up limiting the number of ways you can fish!

[@greenhornflyhorn]

Great recommendations! Appreciate you watching and of course for the comment

[@skorflyfishing]

In my opinion, nail knots or needle nail knots are better for light tippets and/or short small stream rods. You make a good point about the sensitivity of a straight connection. I hadn't thought of that. The main reason for me is that when landing a fish, a loop can catch on your tip rod guide and cause a light tippet to break. This happens more often when you use a long leader or a short rod because the leader must be pulled into the rod guides in order for you to reach the fish. We all know that when you attempt to land a fish it gets spooked and usually gives one last surge to get away. If your loop catches on a guide, you will potentially snap that fish off. So for me, most of my trout fishing is done without a loop. For trout I usually fish rods from 3wt to 6wt depending on the technique. At 7wt and up things change. These rods are used for anything from bass to large saltwater fish. I agree with your comments about the versatility of a loop to loop connection and I start using a loop at this point. However, once I get to about 10wt, the fish I am chasing become large enough that I start to be concerned about the strength of a factory loop. You say that you have not seen a factory loop fail, but I have seen it and also heard of it when it comes to big fish like tarpon, big jacks and GT. Some manufacturers are actually beefing up their loops when it comes to specialty lines for these types of fish, but not all have. Even so, those heavier line weight loops are really bulky and stiff. So you can still run into a loop catching on your tip guide. And now the danger isn't breaking off the heavy tippet, it is breaking off the tip of your rod. For rod sizes 10wt and up, I have gone to installing braided loops like the guides who fish for giant trevally use. If done right, these are stronger than any factory loop and they are very supple when it comes to going through your guides. So the chances of the loop catching are far less of a problem.

[@greenhornflyhorn]

Thank you for sharing your experience! I must admit, the largest species I fish are musky. So, the whole saltwater thing is a complete mystery to me. I can definitely see an advantage to a nail knot with some strong tippet on those bruisers of the sea. Appreciate the tips🙂

[@barry4fish]

@@skorflyfishing I guess the difference in strength between your tippet and the welded loop is not as much for heavier saltwater outfits, as compared to lighter freshwater outfits where the tippet should always break way before the fly line does.

[@skorflyfishing]

@@barry4fish ​ Exactly right. Most tarpon guides will have a section of tippet between 16lb and 30lb, then a shock/ bite tippet from 40 to 80. So the weak link is only 16lb to 30lb. They have important reasons for this set up like, purposely breaking off if a shark appears along with a few other reasons. On the other hand sometimes you fish as much as a straight 100lb leader/tippet. I have had to do this with big GTs just to keep the fish from diving into the rocks and cutting me off. I have also done similar with tarpon and jacks when the situation called for it. You risk losing all your fly line if you can't stop the fish or if it breaks at the backing connection, but there are ways around that as well. Regardless, a factory loop makes me nervous in those situations, so I cut it off and put on my own braided loop. I can depend on that connection, and as Greenhorn pointed out, a loop is much more versatile. Especially in the salt where multiple leader changes can be needed on one trip.

[@skorflyfishing]

@@greenhornflyhorn Sorry, you may have mis-read, or my explanation was lousy. But I was saying I use a loop for big salt water fish for the reasons you pointed out (versatility) I just can't count on a factory loop so I cut it off and put on my own braided loop, which I believe is a much better connection both for strength and for ease of going through my guides. Thanks for posting this video BTW. Good info.

[@jimbissell7829]

Finally common sense, thank you

[@JohnRitson78]

We seem to be getting pushed in a set direction by manufacturers of fly lines. I got back into the hobby and the nail / needle knot was the previous way of connection a leader to your fly line, but now the majority are via loop to loop connection, then the braided loop came around and that is now my method of choice. One thing that I am considering going back to is the double taper line for small to medium rivers, as the presentation and control is much more delicate than that of a WF which is the new fashion, I find the WF lines to be heavy on presentation as in they splash too much regardless of the line weight chosen be that a weight 4 or a weight 8-9 and my casting skill is not at fault as I can place a dry right on a trouts nose with ease using a double taper, but the WF is like me whipping the fly onto the fish and sending it down!. I am digressing, I know.

[@greenhornflyhorn]

Those double tapers are getting hard to find, at least in Canada. Totally get what your saying though. I could’ve sworn there was a WF taper that was close(at least for the first 30ft or so, i think it was called a trout tactical taper? Anyhoo, thanks for sharing your thoughts with us in the comments!

[@JohnRitson78]

@@greenhornflyhorn They are getting rare to source out this way in the UK as they are out of fashion, a shame really as they offer such delicate presentation, be that with a dry or a wet. Nice to speak with you again. Tight lines until the next time.

[@jamesjobe4307]

So, line through the leader loop or leader loop through the line? Does it matter?

[@greenhornflyhorn]

@@jamesjobe4307 leader loop over line.

[@barry4fish]

Doesn’t matter, result is the same, just make sure it’s tightened correctly to look like a handshake (symmetrical on both sides).

[@barry4fish]

Most don’t pull the handshake knot tight enough. It’s supposed to be tightened all the way, and flattened out. If so, then there is no give to it. Lots of people just leave the handshake knot loose, then it’s not as good for nymphing, I agree. I also agree about the larger splash when trout are spooky. But, consider this, many use nail knot to attach a mono loop for attaching the leader, so you have a chance for looseness that way anyways because there is still a handshake knot. Nail knots might seem easy, but to get them right, it takes a lot more practice than with many other knots. I fish mostly warm water, so I go with welded loops always. As far as welding them, remember not every line manufacturer uses the same formula in their plastics, so some are more difficult to get the welding smooth. And, some done at the factory are sloppy, better to start over and do your own on some lines, they can be straighter and more smooth than factory loops, but it depends on the brand. I never had a welded loop fail either, they certainly don’t break because the line core is going through there, they just get beat up from abrasion over time and need replacing. I totally understand either way, it depends on how you fish.

[@greenhornflyhorn]

Good points! Also, if you don’t tighten the loop, not to worry - the tree behind you sure will😆😆

[@barry4fish]

@@greenhornflyhornOr, catching several nice fish will tighten it up as well.

[@greenhornflyhorn]

@@barry4fish haha yup!😉

[@JoelSzymczyk]

"Most don't" tie ANY knots tight enough... in fact most people tie absolutely shite knots.

[@JoelSzymczyk]

great common sense video.... back in the dark ages of the 1980s learned to whip a loop in the end of my lines using a fly tying bobbin and thread from Lefty.... gone thru all the gyrations of loops, knots, Dave Whitlock's no-knot system, all across warmwater and coldwater freshwater and and saltwater fly fishing..... tightline nymphing and any sort of other methods.... Loop-To-Loop connections are perfectly fine and do not fail if done correctly. Brian and Flip preach cut off the loop, and they can do what they want- they are out to sell shit. Been using loop-to-loop connections for well over 40 years and have not had one fail yet.

[@greenhornflyhorn]

The dark ages😆😆😆😆!!! Really enjoyed reading your comment, thanks for taking the time and writing it.

[@mikeparishy]

Obviously flip had floating lines set up in mind when he said cut the loop

[@larryohara6513]

This is just your personal opinion. I don't have any of those problems you brought up.

[@greenhornflyhorn]

What problems?

[@Beardedfurflinger]

You hit it out of the park & agree,I remove the loop on my lighter rods & sink tips,2 reasons transfer of energy & factory loops wear out over several leader attachments,I attach a short section of Maxima Ultagreen & coat the nail/ needle knot with knot sense by loon,then tie a perfection loop in the other end & connect my prelooped leader,haven't had any issues as of yet,tight lines 🤙🇺🇸

[@greenhornflyhorn]

That works too if you want to swap leaders out quite a bit! Thanks for sharing