Are Home Battery Installs BANNED In The UK?

[@artisanelectrics]

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[@RWBHere]

Have they distinguished the differences between Lithium Ion batteries and Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries, which are inherently very much less likely to catch fire than Lithium Ion ones? We have LFP battery packs installed on the ground floor, in the centre of our Victorian terraced house, where the ambient temperature remains at between 20°C and 25°C almost throughout the year. There really is nowhere else to install them here, except for outdoors where they would be a magnet for thieves and vandals, not to mention the low capacity problems which LFP cells have when too cold in Winter.

[@gwenshannon3797]

You mean not recommended, but not banned.

[@lewisbrand]

@@RWBHere it makes no difference when they go into thermal runaway. Please do some chemistry and physics. Lithium is the problem, chemically speaking, and guess what, according to the Periodic Table it seems that it always will be

[@lewisbrand]

@@gwenshannon3797 banned. Don't take my word for it, please contact BSI ( the overarching standards authority in the UK )

[@philware1546]

I got a quote from you. Ridiculous price. £1k+ to run a cable up to the loft, plus extra consumer unit

[@PaulBeebe]

Just in the loft. Please don't go all click baity.

[@Ed.R]

Literally my first thought when I saw the video thumbnail.

[@Ed.R]

Video content is good though, talks a lot of sense and is well explained.

[@protectiongeek]

PAS63100 proscribes installation in a few more locations than just the loft. I can understand some of the frustration with the guidance as it’ll be difficult to follow on a lot of buildings.

[@jamesday426]

Not just in the loft. Near escape routes, within a m of Windows, in insufficiently ventilated or inaccessible spaces. All of which combine to make life tough for flat owners.

[@David_Ashurst]

Totally agree, not just in the loft. Its insanely restrictive. Not just common sense!

[@andrewwright1200]

We are having Solar with Battery installed next week. Installers last month have said they can fit it all in the loft, I've said I will clear a wall in the garage for you.

[@andyxox4168]

You’ll get your car burnt!

[@deccabw]

My installer has said my battery has to be installed on the outside wall of the garage.

[@adsheff]

You say you don't like batteries in a loft - but don't say why!? Are batteries really bursting into flames that much? We all have pressurised gas pumping around our houses - and there are explosions now and then - but we haven't banned gas boilers inside the house.

[@richardjones5255]

The issue of them being heavy and becoming a missile dropping through the building in the even of a fire was mentioned. Lofts can be surprisingly fragile structures.

[@paulblundell8033]

@@richardjones5255if a fire has taken hold to the point the integrity of a floor ( boarding in a loft ) has failed I can’t believe a fireman would be inside a house to be hit by the falling battery pack. It wasn’t that long ago most houses had a large metal water tank which would probably would of hurt if it fell through the ceiling ( though the water might help quell the fire 😊)

[@paulblundell8033]

I honestly think these potential new regulations will severely restrict the uptake of solar. I have just had solar installed and it really makes sense to add a large amount of battery storage and I was lucky to have the space in my garage to do it ( which is attached to the house !) but many of our friends only have lofts or maybe basements which are both potentially no go’s. A large amount of housing stock in London just doesn’t have garages or even outside walls ( unless you use the front of the house which they will not be keen on ) If the issue is the weight and the batteries coming through the house, why not have mounting systems that are fire rated to say 1 hour+ to stop premature failure and better fire and heat detection by the install. That all said, after working in many lofts, the extreme of temperatures is certainly not ideal for most battery systems.

[@darylcheshire1618]

@@paulblundell8033In the example of the house I grew up in as a kid, the hot water service was in the ceiling cavity. It contained 70 gallons or 700 lb. But it was mounted above the passage of the house where there were three doors and was supported by the door posts at four points. So the hor water tank is not just shoved into the ceiling but probably built into the house at the time of construction.

[@jocramkrispy305]

Because working in a loft is nasty

[@ascot4000]

You almost pulled on the correct thread with this document but missed it. A considerable part of these changes are due to the risk to third parties - this includes fire fighters, visitors, children and even neighbours sharing a roof space (eg the average UK terraced or semi-detached house) as these loft spaces are not part of the protected fire zone and are not usually sealed against the gases and material ejected at high velocity from a thermal battery event. It is not within the gift of customers or the installers to accept these identified and foreseeable risks. Please do not the confuse the early stage for these new notes (as this will be part of a series) with the methods used for generally improving standards against the urgency that prompted the release of this (somewhat incomplete) document as fast as practicable.

[@David_Ashurst]

And the document gives no weight to battery chemistry and the differences in issues. I mean, please explain the issues of a lifePO4 battery in a vented loft. It allows for no structural calculations to be used to allow mounting of batteries whether across ceiling joists or indeed on a brick wall.

[@artisanelectrics]

Good comment thanks

[@TheStevenWhiting]

@@David_Ashurst or if they are from China.

[@geoffhaylock6848]

@@David_Ashurst A house fire can easily reach the temperature required to send an LFP battery in thermal runaway?

[@MadSpacePig]

What kind of insanely sensationalist clickbait title is that? No cool.

[@jocramkrispy305]

There's nowhere I could put batteries under this guidance.

[@kadmow]

@@jocramkrispy305 "guidance"...

[@Robulite]

@@jocramkrispy305 With solid state batteries around the corner and the lower and lower risk of fires with battery systems changing chemistries I think it won't matter soon. LFP batteries are already much less of a fire risk than lithium ion and with solid state claims of full punctures not even creating fires I'm sure they are closing in on safer options.

[@jocramkrispy305]

@@Robulite I use LFP for my batteries, but isn't the concern it falling through the ceiling.

[@Robulite]

@@jocramkrispy305 If you build a proper platform for the battery it'd be fine basically anywhere. If there is a real issue with placement the engineer would never sign off on the permit. If the battery somehow leaks or shorts out though it could be a really bad place to have a battery in the ceiling next to a bunch of wood. Not to mention external factors like lightning. In most cases though the risks of anything happening are super low if the proper precautions that take into account where the battery is placed are followed.

[@michaelvrba72]

A battery in the attic is completely wrong, because there the temperature in summer reaches up to 47 degrees Celsius, which does not do the battery good. In winter it freezes there again, which is also not good. 😐

[@peewee3ie]

yes just what I was thinking and also if they are outside and its cold they will not charge or the inverter/charger will try and top them up as the voltage drops when the batteries get cold over night which also shorten the life of them.

[@johngaiger]

Same applies to sticking the battery outside.

[@xxwookey]

Exactly. Lithium battery chemistries like the same conditions as people, so sticking them inside the heated envelope makes a lot of sense from a longevity and efficiency point of view. Putting them outside in the cold and sun (or in an uninsulated loft which is even worse) will definitely reduce lifetimes. I don't know by how much - many it's not that significant.

[@atkt62]

Actually lofts are not always that extreme. it depends very much on construction and location. Our max min temperatures are 38 to minus 2 over 2 years of monitoring and with careful fireproof insulation passive heating caused by using the batteries has maintained the battery temperature are 10c or above. Lifepo4 tech is rated to 50c and anyone who has worked with the tech knows that it is only copper migration effects from the anode which are problematic above this temperature. OUTSIDE temperature swings are far worse by the way.

[@shaunhw]

I'd like to see some proper accurate statistics regarding all these extra restrictions, including batteries and metal consumer units. in some homes there is nowhere but the loft. I live in a four bedroom (extended) semi and can't think where we could put it other than in the loft where it is. Battery storage, available now to the rich, who don't really need them anyway.

[@thebigguy18]

I wonder if the standards/guidance is not followed, could home insurance companies start to void insurance or not pay claims if they find out they was installed afterwards

[@protectiongeek]

I think you could almost guarantee that.

[@truefoa]

Efixx did a video about EV chargers attached to buildings and insurance companies not wanting to insure that not long ago, so I guess it will be coming.

[@artisanelectrics]

Time will tell

[@Daniells1982]

Good point and very likely.

[@dbat3291]

Is there any documents required when installing a battery, I know there is for panels. When I had my system installed (in the loft 🙁) and spoke to my home insurance people apart from a couple of basic questions it didn't seem to bother them. It wasn't mentioned on the renewal documents and shopping around I didn't come across any others mentioning it. More about security and break in access. Scary really as you know if something did go wrong where the finger would be pointed.

[@svenmueller]

There are considerably different risks depending on the battery chemistry. It feels wrong to ban LiFePo from installation in basements. It feels right to do the same for some other chemistries (including more traditional LiIon ones).

[@artisanelectrics]

Very true, unfortunately these guidelines are pretty much blanket to "idiot proof" them - I would still not fit any kind of battery in a loft though...

[@davida1841]

@@artisanelectricsWhat is your reasoning for this?

[@xxwookey]

@@davida1841 There are very large temperature variations in a loft. That's not good for batteries.

[@davida1841]

@@xxwookey In what way?

[@xxwookey]

@@davida1841 It ages them faster and it can inhibit their functionality (e.g. some just won't charge at all below 0C).

[@davecavaghan7889]

Is this the start of the end for net zero as I'm sure alot of the uk housing stock won't be compatible with external battery storage leading to customers to not bother with solar at all

[@michaelgoode9555]

Not at all. Firstly good insulation is the biggest win for net zero. Secondly, if the government reversed the ridiculous policies to put the brakes on renewable energy generation both domestic and commercial that they began in 2010 then not only would we have greater national energy security and a reduced demand for energy but also cheaper energy as well as cleaner energy. Then help people to use that cleaner, cheaper renewable electricity instead of gas and oil and ... 👍👍👍👍👍

[@rogerphelps9939]

We are screwed if net zero does not happen, everywhere.

[@mpellatt]

It's the current tariff structures that push people towards domestic battery storage. It would be comparatively easy to remove that incentivisation.

[@barrieshepherd7694]

A lot of the UK housing stock is unable to have solar anyway so the battery issue is not an issue for many.

[@rogerphelps9939]

@@barrieshepherd7694There is a huge amount of UK housing stock that is suitable for solar. The potential has hardy been scratched.

[@MattHawkinsUK]

I like the content but the click bait misleading thumbnail is a bit dirty. Nothing is banned. You can stick a battery in a loft. Implying batteries are banned in the UK is 🤮

[@russellwestern6997]

I get it completely, I've been an electrician all my working life (25 years). We specialise in EICRs so everywhere I go I'm looking for codes instinctively. Now, I was born in Barbados, trained in Essex and spent all my working life in London. But when I go back to the Island and I compare our regs with theirs (non existent lol) it makes me question things. I mean, over there, batteries are stacked like you wouldn't believe in timber framed houses. No fires at all. Some of their installations are down right dangerous but no fires ever???? Kind of leads me to believe that we in the UK have the BSI and IET just shifting goal posts to keep EICR remedial work flowing........ Which is absolutely fine by me and my bank manager,,,,, just saying thats all! Nice vid son!!

[@IanScottJohnston]

Very interesting!…..and makes feel a little easier on my loft install. The issue I have is that I have seen first hand a LIPO battery fire (not LiFePo4) from an RC plane and there was no putting it out, very very fierce. Hmmmm!

[@OneLessCar]

They are completely over the top in the UK. I mean just look at the rediculous plugs with the crazy big grounding.

[@mikeselectricstuff]

Why on earth is there an 80kWh limit on the total of all batteries regardless of location ?

[@bramcoteelectrical1088]

Amount of potential explosive energy 😊

[@rogerphelps9939]

@@bramcoteelectrical1088 That is what many cars have nowadays.

[@bramcoteelectrical1088]

True but I think need to look at this way that that energy isn't inside the house 🤔 10kw to 30kw is the average install size we have installed

[@judebrown4103]

Potential customer here with a few questions: I've got a linked flat roofed out building which could easily be fireproofed on the small wall that links it to the house but it gets devilishly hot in the summer. I'm assuming this would be a no-no as a place to put a battery or an inverter? The only other place outside that complies with the proximity rules is a place on a gable end wall next to a metal shed but it's right next to the path to the front garden. We've got a fair sized back garden so somewhere to escape in a fire. My question is could a battery be mounted higher on that wall above the metal shed, say? Or are they just plain too heavy? Alternatively it might just comply with proximity and go between two windows on the back wall, its east facing so does get quite hot for a few hours in the summer...would some sort of enclosure for it be good to protect it? Thank Jordan, this is the most comprehensive commentary on the new guidelines I've heard yet, a big thumbs up from me.👍👏

[@brianoneill350]

It never made sense to put batteries and inverters into lofts. Now it’s just confirmed.

[@brianoneill350]

Fair dues for never putting a battery in a loft.

[@RWBHere]

@@brianoneill350 Our inverter runs hotter than the battery packs, and I would never dream of putting it into our loft, let alone putting the 90 kg battery packs up there. I've measured loft temperatures of over 60°C up there, in my workshop, even with more than twice the standard amount of loft insulation. I've considered seriously the viability of painting our rooftop white, to reduce heat absorption.

[@brianoneill350]

Our neighbour put a lot of audio and CCTV gear in his loft. Same issue lot of heat during Summer.

[@captainwin6333]

What about all the homes that don't have garages or outside buildings to stick batteries in? This just for the rich kids with detached homes?

[@pf888]

Completely agree, most houses in the UK don't have garages or even suitable outdoor space to install batteries and the guidelines do not distinguish between different battery chemistries, also what about the solar inverters and associated DC cabling since these are the main sources of solar related fires?

[@barrieshepherd7694]

No different if they don't have a roof to put the solar panels on. Pretty hard to have any solar / batteries if you live in a tower block

[@OneLessCar]

I'm getting quotes at the and my preference is in my detached garage 40ft from the back of the house. Most companies won't give me a quote for this "non standard" installation. This drives me crazy (especially because I have a 30amp wire at the ready due to the previous owners having had a hot tub at the back of the garage). Seems they all want to put it in the loft or next to the outside meter. Seems they are only interested in easy installations. Anyone who has a recommendation for the Gloucestershire area let me know.

[@Wiljuchi]

Mine are in the understairs cupboard as i didn't want them in the loft and having them outside isn't an option.

[@LB-W]

What would your guidance be to a home owner that wanted an emergency backup system. What would be the best bank and way to power home necessities? A heater, fridge and some lighting etc Thank you

[@FFVoyager]

How many fires have been due to domestic batteries igniting?

[@joeds3775]

Quite a few in our area.

[@FFVoyager]

@@joeds3775 what is 'your area' and how do you know what caused the fires?

[@David_Ashurst]

@@FFVoyager I think it was a bloke down the pub told him.

[@bramcoteelectrical1088]

Cheap batteries with poor bms causes the fires 🔥 😢

[@FFVoyager]

@@bramcoteelectrical1088 what cheap batteries and where has this happened? 🙄

[@David_Ashurst]

At 5:50 you state its “not recommended” to put batteries in basements without open air exit routes. The PAS 63100 says “shall not”. Basements are not treated any less than lofts in this respect. They are both directed against equally! PAS is utter madness. Clearly based on “what if” engineering rather than scientific reasoning and evidence led engineering principles.

[@artisanelectrics]

Thanks for clarifying

[@xxwookey]

That does seem a bit silly. Is this paranoia induced by the mysterious German basement battery explosion?

[@David_Ashurst]

@@xxwookey Perhaps. It is notable that the batteries in that installation were bought off alibaba. Brings into question the BMS. That aside though, could have been avoided by a smoke detector and adequate ventilation to disperse gas concentration before it reached LEL.

[@giubaca]

Should and banned are miles apart.... however i wouldn't put batteries in a loft solely for the temperatures loft reach in summer days. And the weight. (Or under stairs just in case of a fire)

[@artisanelectrics]

Good call!

[@johngaiger]

@@artisanelectrics Again for under the stairs it depends on the type of battery eg LiFePo

[@jocramkrispy305]

my consumer unit is under the stairs, and that's a higher fire risk than LFP battereis

[@grahamheath9957]

Yes exactly. The standards organizations use should and should not (i.e. recommended and not recommended) and must and must not as 2 separate things. Also it’s nice that the BSI issues a standard on something, but I thought electrical installations in the UK were under IET rules, I don’t see how BSI have any automatic authority to dictate business practice.

[@alastair4839]

My installer earlier this year was going to install in the loft, but it was a bit hard for them to get it up there, so they talked me into installing it in my office (its about 1.5 meters behind where I sit. Its much cooler then the loft in the summer - but it is very close to me all day.... are there any issues with this?

[@IanScottJohnston]

Mine is in the loft, max temp recorded up there since Oct. Is 22.8degC, min temp is 1.8degC. I have a large extractor fan I fitted myself on a temp switch just in case. It will also email me when temps go outwith a range as an alarm. I am in NE Scotland, the loft doesn’t reach 50degC. Saying all that, I am contemplating moving the battery just for peace of mind.

[@TheEmbeddedHobbyist]

in NE Scotland, surely are they at more risk of flooding in the loft than higher temperatures. 🙂

[@philware1546]

So what happens if i already have batteries in the loft and i want to add to them?

[@johngaiger]

These guidelines don’t make a lot of sense applying one set of rules for all batteries when the technologies vary dramatically. From a functional point of view putting batteries in lofts or outside is going to impact on its performance. If you are talking about safety, then it really depends on the technology used to make up the battery. I’d have no issue with installing a LiFePO battery, which is considered to be fire safe, inside a house, but other Lithium battery types can have a much higher risk of catching fire, same for lead acid batteries, so these guidelines are ignoring these differences and pandering to the panic from bikes and scooters that sometimes catch fire.

[@bordersw1239]

Perfect time for someone to start building and selling external battery enclosures.

[@artisanelectrics]

You thinking of doing it?

[@markbooth3066]

That only makes sense if the cost of the enclosure is less than the savings from buying a non outdoor rated battery system, rather than just buying an outdoor rated battery system.

[@davideyres955]

@@artisanelectricsI think I would build a dedicated storage shed type building with insulation to keep the battery warm in winter and in theory cool in winter. What would your thoughts on that be Jordan?

[@RWBHere]

@@davideyres955 Cool in Summer*?

[@KrizzzR]

I live in a mid terraced house. I can't put a battery on the sides and don't fancy having one on the roof (no loft). Are there any battery enclosures that can be set underground (e.g. under a driveway, but not as excessive as Colin Furze).

[@keithmarlow143]

In Australia we have detailed regs around home batteries and they need to be specifically sited to not create an emergency fire risk.. So, no, you can't put them in the roof space...

[@becaldridge1584]

When u say 80 outside and 40 inside does that mean a max of 80 or could you combined the two it get a 120 total storage ?

[@adhdengineer]

Are there any documented cases of LiFePO4 batteries causing a fire?

[@damianbutterworth2434]

I designed and built my own off grid system. Cost £2000 with 2 kilowatts of panels, 80 amp charge controller, 6 big caravan batteries, 3500 watt off grid inverter and I put separate sockets in every room so I could switch between off grid and grid depending on the battery voltages. Worked very well. Just have to change your lifestyle slightly.

[@bpccross]

Come on guys, these guides are there for a reason - install batteries in the loft and you’re putting people’s lives at risk.

[@benjamindavidvine1]

I have recently had a battery installed in the loft. If I understand correctly, the new guidelines were based around the safety of firefighters and the potential of a heavy battery landing on their head in the even of a fire weakening the joists the battery is sitting on. If that is the case and I were a firefighter, I'd be just as worried about the water tanks located in the lofts of many UK homes.

[@ChrisLee-yr7tz]

Most are plastic...

[@barrieshepherd7694]

@@ChrisLee-yr7tz But they are full of heavy water! Ok that might help fight the fire. 🤣

[@ChrisLee-yr7tz]

@@barrieshepherd7694 I'm suggesting they might melt and leak before the joists burn.

[@neilrwilliams218]

Building regulations will need to start considering this with either a fire rated plant room with space for batteries, inverter, consumer unit and all the bits that go with heat pumps, or requiring properties with separate garages to be built with the underground trunking in place to take the necessary cabling. To put batteries in my garage would require digging up the garden and part of a tarmac parking space which is extra cost that could easily be factored into the initial build as it's cheaper to do it then. The back wall of my house is the only place a battery could reasonably go. Clearly in a decade or so buyers of new builds will expect solar, battery and heat pumps to be installed as part of the original build.

[@markbooth3066]

Plant room? Where are you going to put a 'plant room' in an average 100m²/1100ft² U.K. home?

[@neilrwilliams218]

@@markbooth3066 had an ASHP installed last year and joke that I lost and airing cupboard and gained a plant room!

[@markbooth3066]

Ah, we have a 'server room' where our airing cupboard used to be @@neilrwilliams218. *8') We got two quotes for ASHP systems last year, but even with the rebate neither were much cheaper than whole house Aircon with a similar COP for heating. Paying a little more to avoid the huge tank and all of the radiator changes, as well as getting cooling, seemed like a better option.

[@stuartjohnston1086]

A consideration for battery location is working temperature of the battery. Pylontech batteries in particular will not charge at temperatures under 0 degrees C. I would have liked to have our batteries in the detached garage, but here in rural Scotland, it's just too cold at night.

[@persona250]

Install it in the garage with a thermal box around it made from kingspan with a door that can be opened in summer .

[@protectiongeek]

You could sacrifice a little of the energy you have stored and have a small tube heater or similar to keep the temperature up a bit. Low power heaters like those for greenhouses might do it. Depends of the size of the room/enclosure. Insulation of the enclosure helps too.

[@Daniells1982]

They also advise they aren't mounted on a south facing wall for overheating risk. Batteries like to operate within a tolerance of temperatures, another reason they shouldn't be located on loft spaces where you have no control of the temp in a cold loft space i.e. cold in the winter and boiling in the summer. Going to be difficult to located them outside in my opinion.

[@bramcoteelectrical1088]

Make a insulated box...see our installs we made a insulated box over the battery rack

[@roberthuntley1090]

To me, the killer restriction is that batteries outside of the house shouldn't be located within one metre of a door, window or ventilator port so that excludes the whole front and back of my house. The only viable wall is in a narrow side alley, and a battery there would probably prevent my bicycle handlebars going through so that's a non-starter as well. The only compliant location I can think of is to build a hard standing at the bottom of the garden (more cost to build this, plus dig a route for the connecting cable etc.). These changes are likely to greatly reduce battery sales if complied with, and agree with the comments below that insurance could well be invalidated if a home owner chooses to risk a non-compliant install.

[@OneLessCar]

I'm in a similar position except I can get my bike out of the rear. I wonder if mounting the battery higher than your handlebars is a possibility?

[@oldXLgeezer]

Greetings. You recorded this video in a container, which has insulation on the roof. What insulation did you use? Did you screw or bolt it to the roof, thus rendering the container no good for shipping. I have a container workshop in southern Spain and last summer the Max/Min thermometer read 66C. So I couldn't have a solar battery in there then! Thank you.

[@_a.z]

10:30 How can you have slightly less than an installation in a loft?

[@CalMUK91]

Its honestly ruled me out. I live in a 3bed detached with external garage. I don't wanna see the batteries and I don't wanna put them in my garage (takes up vital garage space). So only plan was to put them in my boarded, vented loft.

[@rogerphelps9939]

The garage is where you put the heat pump.

[@barrieshepherd7694]

@@rogerphelps9939 😎Alongside the batteries ! - At least the noise from the heat pump will be attenuated.

[@rogerphelps9939]

@@barrieshepherd7694 Heat pumps are becoming quiter, especially ground source heatt pumps.

[@barrieshepherd7694]

@@rogerphelps9939 Maybe but collectively they still become a source of acoustic pollution.

[@nicholasbezzina450]

So is it acceptable, according to the new recommendations, to install the inverter in a loft? and what costs would be involved in transferring batteries to outside the house?

[@artisanelectrics]

They do not mention inverters, but current guidelines are that you can install an inverter in a loft but you should fit an interlinked mains powered smoke alarm

[@roberthuntley1090]

Have you got a suitable location outside of the house? The guidelines say that batteries can't be installed within one metre of doors, windows and ventilation ports - which excludes the front and back of my house. As per my other comment, I think I would need to fit a battery on a hard standing at the bottom of the garden.

[@nicholasbezzina450]

Ventilation ports? What are they? Don't tell me it is those bricks at the base of the walls that have perforations?

[@roberthuntley1090]

@@nicholasbezzina450 I think its referring to extractor fan outlets, and similar grills that let air into a room. Basically any hole that links air/smoke outside of the house with the occupied interior of the home. I would exclude an air brick that only ventilates the wall cavity, but not one that passed air to a grill inside the house. Needs to be confirmed though.

[@kathrynwhitby9799]

are there any IP rated, fire resistant cabinets that can be used for eternal positioning of the batteries?

[@wobby1516]

I wonder if batteries shouldn’t go in garages that are part of the house or should be below a certain size. How does one stand when it comes to an electric car that also has a very large battery ?

[@TheWebstaff]

In other news. Charging your mobile phone under your pillow is being banned.

[@truefoa]

This is an informative and much needed video, thank you Jordan.

[@artisanelectrics]

Glad it was helpful!

[@blacko3539]

We were forced to change a perfectly fine plastic CU for a metal one..... The authors on this set of guidelines “consulted” on them yet nobody seemed to know about it. They’ve said the guidelines are not based on any incidents, injuries, or fires, they’ve been created because someone felt like it . Good news! Anybody can pay to create new guidelines with no oversight and they won’t say who paid for them. They won’t be enshrined in law, but the governing bodys will expect you to follow all guidelines. Isn’t that fun? There's some ideas in the regulations but they are shoddy. I've seen several threads by electricians about how many house holds simply wouldn't be able to install BSS if they were to follow them. This is how stupid regs and myths get embeded in industries.

[@bramcoteelectrical1088]

London 🔥 fire brigade in consultation helped shape the move over to metal consumer units

[@alanhowemusic2457]

Problem in battery loft installation is heat in the summer period. I assume the battery chemistry is lithium-ion and as we all know the electric cars use this battery chemistry and when the battery pack increases its internal heat a cooling system is used to ensure the battery temperature remaining within the stated temperature range as per the battery manufacturer. So what keeps the loft batteries installation cool in the summer?

[@kennyrodg]

Most solar batteries are lifepo4, not Li-ion.

[@ddeightonuk]

A good balanced video but you missed the insurance aspect. Insurance companies will make their own assessment of the situation and whilst technically an installation may be deemed safe, if home insurance cover can't be obtained at reasonable cost the customer is high and dry. Also there is the suggestion that internal batteries have fresh air ventilation.

[@xxwookey]

You don't _have_ to have home insurance, but obviously most people like to have some because it's a very expensive thing to self-insure. I've always taken the view that I could afford to rebuild so didn't actually need insurance.

[@krslavin]

LiFePO4 batteries don't need fresh air, but they may need thermally regulated air in the range 10 to 40C.

[@molly5251]

I see loads of Chinese not regulated chargers setting fire to e-bike batteries, can you tell me how many fires happen with home solar and batteries, as i have 5 x 5kw dc PureDrive in my loft

[@KoolDude100]

Unfortunately I had no other option but to put the batteries in the boarded out loft,im intending to integrate a wind turbine generator into the system as my inverter is a hybrid capable unit. Could you recommend a make of wind turbine generator I'm keen on the NG Skywind German one. By the way I've bought a co2 fire extinguisher if the worst happens and I'm not burnt alive in bed as its right above my head.

[@rogerphelps9939]

Please do the calculation of what your potential annual generation might be. All you need for tthat is the swept area of the blades and the mean wind speed at the height you intend to install the wind turbine. After you have done that you will almost certainly ditch tthe idea. Domestic wind turbines are a very bad idea for most people for very sound physical reasons.

[@jayallum2423]

We had loads of solar quotes in the past weeks, all suggested putting batteries in our loft.

[@CoffieVerkeert]

The recommendations make sense. So how about digging a square hole outside, make it a box (concrete or thick metal) and keep the batteries outside this way? One thing I find interesting in this context is electric cars "stored" (=parked) in garages attached to the house. And they are even considered to become "public"/grid storage units. Regarding lofts: I think they are still a better place than cellars because fire moves upwards, not downwards. Yet, I wouln't want batteries in the house for sure.

[@dave-d]

Put the batteries underground? Thermally stable and no issues with escape routes. Thanks again Jordan. You should be compulsory viewing for all entering the trade.

[@xxwookey]

Underground in the UK is a bit cool - at about 12C in the south and 9C in the north, but it would be much better than a loft or an outside wall. You'd have a humidity problem instead of a temperature one of course.

[@bramcoteelectrical1088]

You lot real???? Water ingress and all sorts of issues with putting in ground

[@xxwookey]

@@bramcoteelectrical1088 We can make waterproof underground boxes (a basement is more-or-less this), but I agree it's not a very good idea to just stick batteries in holes - some of them would no doubt end up flooded.

[@marcio4u123]

Yes let’s rethink about having a gas cooker inside a house or flat because that produces real fire 🔥

[@johnbodnar3720]

I also remembered when you installed a battery in the garage, it popped up in my mind a month ago now I am installing a battery. With all these car and battery fires I decided to make up a small brick structure with fire sprinklers one metre from house. Will save on insurance costs aswell, hopefully. As for what you have done over the years, not installing batteries in homes was a very good choice, thanks.

[@db1418]

We have 2 inverters in our Loft but the Tesla PW2 is in the study, originally it was going to go outside but the location is south facing so would have been exposed to the sun but I'm not concerned about it being in the study.

[@robinpenny3193]

My understanding is that this is something to do with rare fault conditions causing batteries to give off toxic gasses, which are heavier than air, so can sink into the rooms below. I note Batteries falling through ceilings would not be an issue in a basement & no suggestions about securely fixing them to a wall as opposed to sitting on joists. Was really hoping you were going to give us more clarity on the underlying issues.

[@imark7777777]

Interesting good. Although I'm not a big fan of the Electronics on the outside of the house method. Batteries like conditions spaces but maybe at some point that might change.

[@rdownmakeITbetter]

I wonder how long before certain installations of batteries go the way that spray-foam insulation has. It's not illegal, but you won't get a mortgage on a property with such an installation. I guess that's the inevitable hazard for early adopters of any technology.

[@EymertVRSTGT]

Not recommending/allowing in the loft or even in the house would make a lot of installations impossible at least in The Netherlands in modest "15 under one roof" row houses. I do get the reasons.... Thermal runaway and uncontrolled fire/exolosions are real substantial risks.... In common NMC cells. BUT a lot of 'statuonary' batteries are moving towards LiFePo4 chemistry. And with those, uncontrolled thermal runaway is not a thing any more. The can still eject explosive/combustible gas when 1 or more cells get damaged, so at least there should be adequate ventilation available. Unfortunately, LiFePo4 doesn't like cold/freezing conditions. So outside the house or in a badly isolated shed is not an option

[@peteglass3496]

What's a loft? I'm in a terraced house, no outer walls without doors or windows. But it's tall, 3 stories with a mini roof room under one side of the valley with a door and narrow short flight of stairs up into it. This has the large brick gable wall for mounting and the smal SE facing roof [insulated behind boarding] is immediately above, floor definitely not weight bearing. Fireproofing and ventilation could be upgraded, gets hot/cold but not the extremes some mention. Cold water tank is in here too. There really is nowhere else that wouldn't be worse...

[@ChrisBaileyMusic]

Guidelines. That's the key word as you said. There's clearly a reason to not fit batteries in loft spaces, particularly with poor access. LFP is safer, but you still want to check on them occasionally. Fit and forget leads to neglect. Outside for LFP in IP rated cases with no heating is just silly. I've seen installs even this month specifying outdoor LFP without heating mats. This is a recipe for uselessness in winter. The old argument was "well there's not much Sun in winter anyway so it doesn't matter" but that is long dead as reasoning because of smart tariffs mean many people are able to utilise their batteries in the winter to run their home power at a fraction of the cost via overnight charging or agile tariffs etc. No LFP without heating capability should be installed outside or even in a garage. Puredrive, i'm looking at you.

[@protectiongeek]

PAS63100 is referenced in Section 11.2.3 of the IET Code of Practice on Electrical Energy Storage Systems, 3rd Ed. The IET CoP states that the guidance *_should_* be used.

[@VinoVeritas_]

Which law does it state you would be breaking by not following PAS 63100?

[@protectiongeek]

@@VinoVeritas_ would that be your defence if you were charged and/or sued following an incident?

[@VinoVeritas_]

@@protectiongeek Which law would I be getting prosecuted under?

[@protectiongeek]

@@VinoVeritas_ it depends on the circumstances, of course. Assuming we're considering a criminal prosecution in the UK, employers, including the self-employed, have a duty to those who are not their employees under s.3 of the Health and Safety at Work etc Act 1974. Prosecution under common law for injury to persons and/or criminal damage to property would likely be options too. Aspects of the Building Regulations and the Construction (Design and Management) Regulations may also be brought to bear. Part of the assessment of whether work had been done lawfully would likely include an assessment of the competence of the person or persons doing the work as well as the design of the installation. In performing such an assessment, the court would usually try to determine by what standard or standards the work was to be examined against. In the context of the subject matter at hand - installation and operation of EESS in a domestic setting - the standards referenced would certainly include BS7671, the IET CoP and PAS63100. It is possible - again, depending on the circumstances of the case - that a defence can be led on the basis of _not_ following the published guidance (where such guidance does not enjoy statutory or mandatory effect), where it can be demonstrated that the acts of the defendant(s) were at least as sound as the published guidance, or better than it. I would suggest that would be quite an achievement and in most cases almost impossible.

[@protectiongeek]

@@VinoVeritas_ take your pick. Common law injury (or worse) to persons, criminal damage to property. Health and Safety at Work etc Act (Section 3), CDM Regs, Building Regs to name but a few.

[@darylcheshire1618]

Could two batteries half the usual size be installed in smaller (safer) spaces and joined together? That would give you more options. Maybe even ten smaller units could be more conveniently stored. And you have the option of spacing out the installation of the batteries depending on the budget and added to later. Win-win. Are there any electrical or technical impediments to storing multiple batteries. For example the Bluettis B units. Also they can’t be too far apart.

[@erjonberisha7807]

I feel like installing the equipment on the outside leaves it at a higher risk because of the weather and the components being worn down a lot quicker. I don't see the issue with having the components in the loft if there is good fire detection. Fires spread in seconds going up but takes an hour going down.

[@raychambers3646]

So when when you have an inspection later , don't comply , the what?

[@philipholme9911]

I think their is a possiblity that having existing batteries in lofts could impact house insurance premiums.

[@hicksonb]

Not reasonable to propagate the view that batteries will go on fire, the newer chemistry batteries don’t. I would be more concerned about bad wiring than batteries. You started this channel educate and build your brand, so please continue to do both in a positive way.

[@FlyingFun.]

I use lithium batteries in RC models and know that the lift is a terrible place for them, can't believe anyone ever thought it a good idea. The only place I'd consider one is in the detached garage or outside.

[@ahk501]

It makes sense if we can get enclosures used for BESS system which is made to be installed away from the building. I have seen one before it comes with small hvac system and all.

[@DIEMLtdTV]

My view on best practice standards are they are of most use if something goes wrong and someone asks "there is a specified standard for this, why did you deviate from the best practice?" This way of work could be introduced into Fire safety: Approved Document B or a new part of the Building Regulations such as with EV charging points in 2021 and the introduction of Document S: infrastructure for charging electric vehicles.

[@familyoffourdisneydreaming6081]

It’s all well and good, but what about the 100’s of thousands of terraced houses in the uk with no other choice but in the loft?

[@jamesday426]

For a flat in one of those I'm thinking about a bit of outside wall more than a meter from a window and above a flat roof.

[@rossmurdoch7870]

Not all properties will be suitable for Solar tech, or EV charging, as things stand. The south facing roof area will be too small to generate enough energy to heat your home or even the water properly in winter, and so you will need a Heat pump. This too you will struggle to find room for outside especially with the 4 bins we need now too. Sorry but ,Its probably a waste of time for someone in a terraced house to go down this route.

[@familyoffourdisneydreaming6081]

@@rossmurdoch7870 but not if they can put batteries in the loft

[@edroelectricalservices2356]

12:07 ,thank you for the information. Are you sure you can drill through Lithium-ion batteries and they wont catch fire straight away!

[@artisanelectrics]

Lets try it! haha

[@edroelectricalservices2356]

@@artisanelectrics 💣🤯 🤣

[@bobmonztr]

Np I doubt I would put my 1400kg bank in the loft. Lead carbon. Maybe LiPO at 400kg.

[@artisanelectrics]

WOW

[@A_Canadian_In_Poland]

Is this just for LITHIUM batteries? Other battery chemistres don't present the same flammability risk.

[@matthewplatt5368]

Respect for u. lost click bait. Yes loft banned toataly agree.

[@AlanMacleod-hv5ee]

The householder may also have to consider house/building insurance, not necessarily now but in the near future.

[@Spikejones5001]

Only need lithium batterys if short of space so why not use cheaper larger deep cycle batterys?

[@dc1544]

It really comes down to the chemistry of the battery. LFP is safe to install anywhere if temperature is within specs. I would use loft only if last place I could fit them but would build a fireproof area with ventilation just incase gas does leak from the cells. I use my basement which stays 55F all year. So many old batteries are Lion type and should never be used in a house. Even storing a car in garage with those should not happen.

[@davidquirk8097]

The bigger issue won't be whether it becomes a Code of Practice but what approach the Insurance Companies are going to take in terms of allowable risks once they have have a BSI Guideline in their hands. I think that this is what will drive location/relocation.

[@CrownRider]

I have two LFP 5 kWh batteries in my loft. They both have an internal fire extinguisher. The brand is Sessy (NL) and they are connected between the solar inverter and the consumer panel. The location is not ideal I agree and our new house will have a detached garage for sure for the EV's, solar panels, inverters and batteries.

[@Tonypoolebcfc]

Just more legislation put forward by people who couldn't use a screwdriver ,more paper work more bollocks

[@Mountain.mary.mountain]

The question is actually how much of a fire hazard are batteries ? It seems to me it is a negligible issue . I believe companies producing batteries have suggested or paid them off to tell everyone to put them outside as this will definitely reduce the lifespan of the battery which companies will want to have a better cash flow .

[@mlgboy1]

One of the biggest issues that you didnt mention will undoubtedly be when insurance companies start looking at the risks involved with battery location and they will very soon be uplifting premiums where batteries are installed in a location considered to be more at risk of causing more widespread damage to your own and neighbouring property. very soon insurance companies will be looking at the locations of electric cars while charging in terms of proximity to property, just look at how many cars where recently destroyed at gatwick airport when a charging Tesla's battery went into thermal runaway and took out a total of 11 vehicles. You would'nt want that next to your house!!!

[@NedNew]

Was there not a redacted 4th amendment to the 19th edition of the 2016 regs for BS7671, which counteracts guideline 63100?

[@BSJWright]

My battery (Solax) is in my loft, but I don't have a garage now. Ultimately I would like to get Tesla Powerwall(s) that would go outside. Current battery is only around 6Kwh I believe so not huge but it does still represent a risk. The issue with getting Powerwalls is that they are not compatible with my inverter software (I don't think)

[@abc123evoturbobonker]

9:00 that is how many sparks behaved, they rinsed it by replacing almost brand new plastic CUs

[@GryphonDigitalArt]

More food for thought as to where to put batteries in due course (with a solar install). Loft (for me) was an absolute not happening (weight, servicing, temperatures etc) but garage is under main bedroom so needs updated fire safety - doable with an addition of fire board on the ceiling I guess. Outside is an issue with location and weather protection being needed.

[@bchdsailor]

The next upgrade is conduits, location of consumer unit (NOT in a confined space) and to make it short: Look to Norway as Cory did 😉😉

[@artisanelectrics]

Lets hope so!

[@xxwookey]

Batteries should be close to the charger -the cabling between those is LV (usually 48V) so quite fat. Stringing those high-current cables all the way to the garage might be more of a fire risk than just putting the batts next to the inverter.

[@zenthor13]

It’s also about protecting the fire service if there is a house fire by other cause

[@andyxox4168]

Should also depend on the chosen battery technology as, for example, lead acid batteries are not the same as Lithium-Ion.

[@craigmarshall5896]

Interesting that only the well-off with garages and external buildings should be allowed the benefit from solar energy and power storage. For some the only option is to install internally. I'm thinking urban terraces for example or HMO's also fall in to this senario. People should be allowed to accept the level of potential risk they are prepared to accept, as you point out in the video. So what is the alternative for those without the space, external or otherwise?

[@EdwardBretherton]

be grid connected to sell back rather than store, could you sleep well knowing there is a risk of fire above you or your family, i couldn't

[@ttvkiller-rs7qz]

Can we have a van tour video or a tool bag review

[@JWxUK]

Just guidelines, so until its law its only those wanting to be at the edge of best practise that will do it.

[@suchin8524]

I'm not an electrician, just a lowly vehicle technician but I don't get why charging solar batteries in the house is any more dangerous than charging one of those (up to 3000w) Li-ion electric scooters. No one has ever mentioned banning those in your home even though there have been countless cases of them igniting. As for batteries building up heat in the attic, it is of course a regional thing but I live in Ireland. We possibly get 20 or maybe 30 days maximum per year over 20 degrees (C) and I can only speak for myself but it is as cool in the attic as in the main house. Could be that the house was built in the 1700's though and suffers from more than a bit of infiltration ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. Thanks for your video, good to know.

[@neilm9400]

So the sigenergy are a step ahead here then? Interesting, I wonder if they had anticipated the fire suppression issue.

[@pauldavey8379]

as an electrician who started working in the 1970's I used to remove metal fuse boxes & replace with wooden backed & plastic fronted ones, we was also told not to fix them on a wooden board due to fire etc but then came the Electricity board & they fixed the main incoming head & meters on chipboard!! now its gone in a complete circle & metal has come back, also grommets where ok in the older metal boxes now they are not. I think somebody is making a lot of money changing all these rules & regulations, maybe we should all just use our common sense, remember when we had to take an earth wire from the consumer unit direct to the metal bath legs then drill & tap it & use a brass 2BA scew & washer, what stupid person thought of that? then they said lets change the colours of the wires to Harmonise with Europe, what a load of nonsense that is, I've worked in France/Italy & Germany & none of these countries use the colours that we have now had to change over to, France use Blue as the neutral, green & yellow as the earth & then all the other colours of the rainbow can be used as live's this is great as when you wire the consumer unit you can use different colour wires for certain circuits so you can identify them just looking at them, there is also no such thing as a ring main, they just use Radial circuits (so much easier to find a fault) also RCBO's have been out there for over 20 odd years & cost half the price that we pay. We have a lot to learn from the French way of wiring. My last gripe is using the new colours on the 3 phase , this is rearly Dangerous, how can black be a phase when the old system it was the Neutral? i wonder how many people have got a shock or died because of this change.

[@barrieshepherd7694]

You forgot the "feed in to consumer units must go through the same hole to stop overheating by eddy currents" You would need to push hundreds of amps through the circuit to even cause a single degree of heating. And the not running data cables next to power cables (in a domestic install) to stop dangerous induced voltages ! Those who generate these regs don't seem to apply practical science to their deliberations a lot of the time.

[@simonmoorcroft4067]

This was definitely on the horizon. I can see insurance companies asking questions in the future of the location of batteries etc. Higher premiums maybe.

[@78bookem]

I have said from day one that the insurance industry will get hold of this topic and when they do, those with batteries inside their house will have large premiums to pay or might not get insurance!

[@pauljohnson4590]

The drive forward will come from the home insurance companies - when they deem location will make you ininsurable, or stupidly expensive.