Are non-living things… evolving? Yes, says leading mineralogist | Robert Hazen

[@louisguerin9929]

I am troubled by the use of the term evolution to express something in that setting which isn't: The ability to self-replicate + mutation + selection. Minerals tend to be more of a Generation (From varying conditions: temperature, pressure, elemental composition...) and selection (stability) which doesn't fit what I think is the most common use of the word evolution in a scientific context.

[@mygirldarby]

Yes, evolution implies genetic mutation.

[@louisguerin9929]

​@@mygirldarbyI also saw the term evolution used to describe "memes" (Idea that are transmitted such as religion, political ideas, internet memes, values...). I think when used in that context it also makes sense because in a similar way as a virus the idea doesn't have a "self-replicating" mechanism but it is designed to spread through a host and there is an inherent change of the information through the communication process (different wording or interpretation). So I'm not closed to the idea that non-genetic system can evolve (but not convince by the mineral example as presented in the video.).

[@NightmareCourtPictures]

Self replication and mutation aren't necessary. Just Natural Selection...and then really, just Selection. Selection, is the idea that things that stay, are typically what you see. Things that didn't stay, are typically things you wont see. We typically see lions, because that's what stayed. We don't see Dodo's, because those didn't stay. Selection can go even more general...and some would argue (and i agree) that selection is just a system doing complicated stuff. I think that there are mathematical minima's and maxima's that make selection seem like a real phenomenon, which it is, but it's not like it is more fundamental then, the system just doing complex things.

[@ambergris5705]

No, that's natural selection. Evolution doesn't say anything except "things change", but doesn't say anything about the driver behind that change. For life, the driver is natural selection, but for minerals, it would of course be different.

[@birdgincrit]

​@ambergris5705 I don't think there is an active driver for anything going on. It's just that, in spacetime, when things start to roll they just keep rolling > interacting, which can lead to emergence and that what emerges then starts to play a roll as well in the whole game of billiards. But yeah.. what was the initial drive? Was there even an initial drive? If not, than how started things to roll and if yes, how did that drive came about?

[@YassenChapkanov]

All systems made of interacting systems change each other with time. Entropy is literally how we understand time and evolution is just informational flow in the opposite direction. All you need are interacting elements that replicate the interaction itself while mutually changing. This isn't really new or deep. It's just phrased in scientific language.

[@wolfvonderr4487]

If we assume that enthalpy is slowing down entropy, then a mineral being converted by heat and pressure into one with stronger bonds (say carbon into diamond) would deteriorate slower, thus it would ‘evolve’, under your logic which would match the explanation by this scientist, would it not?

[@YassenChapkanov]

@@wolfvonderr4487 External environment changing a mineral isn't enough for evolution. If that mineral can affect the environment and replicate itself or grow by affecting it then we can talk about evolution because we observe a system that reverses entropy locally. In that informational sense a stone can evolve like a selfordering program.

[@seanrowshandel1680]

Not really: even history "evolves". J. K. Rowling was being more "historical" than Tolkien. It's clear that there are two types of people: Those Who Do Witchcraft, and "Muggles" (because there "was", actually, a dynasty of Muggles in Northern South Asia after guns became popular, and, as witches do, some of us ended up grouping them together with "China" and creating the wizard/Muggle dichotomy wherein there are these two types of people).

[@jonathankranz2799]

Then why does time favor complexity and variety?

[@YassenChapkanov]

@@jonathankranz2799 I disagree with your assertion. The flow of time increases variety only to the extent that is the natural result of the many possible ways an already existing system can fall apart. Time doesn't favor complexity at all. In fact entropy is increasing the simplicity of a system by redistributing energy to reach the eventual cold death equilibrium. The only scenarios where complexity increases with time are localised reveals of entropy such as the planet Earth full of life. That however is only possible because of the external energy coming from a sun that is definitely obeying entropy.

[@MEM88844]

Honestly, what else are computers, but minerals, electricity and know-how? Maybe minerals are using us to assist in its evolution.

[@Steyreon]

Think deeper: minerals - molecules - atoms - subatomic particles...energy

[@guitarhero-z2m]

The universe is all one format. We are all quantum particles arranged in different ways. We all abide to the universal laws, and act accordingly to their instructions.

[@thewiseturtle]

Entropy is evolution. Most folks were taught an overly simplified version of what "entropy" is. In reality, as originally defined, entropy is a measure of the number of possible (micro) states a system can be in, aka, the complexity of a system. Or, really, just the number of independent parts in a system. The process of increasing entropy (aka, the laws of nature) involve contraction/combination and expansion/division. Also known as natural selection (compatible mates combining together to co-create with) and random mutation (the creation being an unpredictable combination of the two "parents"). So, yes, EVERYTHING is evolving. Be it atoms or minerals or living organisms or universes (different timelines from different observer's viewpoints). Entropy/evolution follows an expanding and contracting branching set of paths, modeled by Pascal's triangle, that explore all possibilities in space~time. It's the family tree of reality.

[@arthurwieczorek4894]

I have never put entropy and evolution together before. One result is I can never say 'evolution', when what I really mean to say is 'evolution by natural selection.'

[@seanrowshandel1680]

Denis Noble is the most modern scientist I've ever heard of, BY FAR, and he might even rationalize the branch of non-forensic sciences one day. You'll be very entertained by him, based on what you said. I guarantee it. You may even "evolve" your perspective afterwards, and become stronger.

[@nuynobi]

@@thewiseturtle Tell me you don't understand entropy without telling me you don't understand entropy.

[@LowenKM]

Thx, provocative idea, and interesting implications for a lotta other forms of 'complexity' as well, from black holes, to political ideologies!

[@Italianjedi7]

I agree with this. It seems logical. I know Dr Hazen gave examples of how minerals from the dawn of time increased but I’m a stickler and feel the best way to test this would be to try and find a more “recent” example of mineral evolution.

[@nuynobi]

There are terms that have different technical meanings in different disciplines. I don't see the problem with geologists talking about mineral evolution as long as we're clear that it's not the same thing as the biological evolution talked about by biologists. Colloquially, "evolution" just means change over time which is concordant with both.

[@kristinjones4739]

Dr. Hazen, I think you’d be really interested in the writings of the German Romantic philosophers Herder, Schelling, and Novalis, and in the Idealist writings of Hegel, and what all did with Kant’s idea of the Naturzweck.

[@marcelkummer4329]

This is a really inspiring way of viewing things. Nice. This makes me thinking... Thank you!

[@The-Well]

We love to hear this! Thank you for being here!

[@em945]

Thank you!

[@The-Well]

Our pleasure! Thanks for watching!

[@MrFossil367ab45gfyth]

As a rock hound, I find this to be a very interesting concept to think about.

[@bjnslc]

Do minerals really evolve toward resistance to weathering and/or subduction? I'm suprised Hazen suggested that since I haven't seen him hypothesize that in his writing. Dolomite is more resistant to weathering than limestone, but the rock cycle quit favoring dolomitization long ago.

[@ZafOsophy]

Imagine Earth as a small canvas, which is being "painted", and the sun being a "paint brush", adding a new "stroke" everyday, towards a final/finished painting/work, eventually it will be completed/finished, but it has already been completed from God's point of view, which lives outside of time. It is really thrilling, exciting, deliciously entertaining, pondering/thinking, about what that final "painting" is going to look like, and it's purpose 😇

[@goodToBeLost]

Okay, except you won't be there to see it.

[@ZafOsophy]

@@goodToBeLost Of course, I won't be around to see it. The whole universe is evolving/working towards this final creation, but it has already completed, from God's point of view, since God is nothing like the creation and is outside of our time. Hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy is very interesting/entertaining 😄

[@Arashiii87]

What does the interconnected nature of evolving systems tell us about our place in the universe? Are we the result of a unique set of evolutionary circumstances?

[@retardno002]

Fun fact, one cubic centimeter of human is more energy dense than one cubic centimeter of sun. We are just energy being condensed further, entropy fights entropy due to the nature of complex systems. The time scale is too big to comprehend. Enjoy the ride.

[@baraskparas9559]

Excluding mineral evolution, a new book published by Austin Macauley Publishers titled From Chemistry to Life on Earth outlines abiogenesis in great detail with a solution to the evolution of the genetic code and the ribosome as well as the cell in general using 290 references, 50 illustrations and several information tables with a proposed molecular natural selection formula with a worked example for ATP. The book concludes that Darwinian natural selection works at the molecular level. Mineral evolution doesn't necessarily need life since oxygenation events involving manganates, hydrogen peroxide breakdown and contact with Earths' abundant water could oxygenate rocks even if life had been extiguished early in Earths' history.

[@juju8119]

The universe and its surroundings evolve, everything is part of the whole 🙃

[@turiiya1921]

This man is presenting a novel thought, which I can see many in the comment section cannot grasp fully. They want to differentiate animate and inanimate structures. The way this scientists view the universe is very much in sync with ancient ideas of the East, that everything, every single atom is made of consciousness. And the evolution that is happening in this universe is an expansion of that consciousness, from gross to subtle and from subtle to consciousness. Everything has mind, even stones albeit it is in a dormant stage. Everything is throbbing with the same consciousness everywhere, but it is expressed in many different ways. A plant is more subtle and complex than a stone, an animal is still more complex than a plant and even within the animal kingdom you find different degrees of expression of mind. The developed and underdeveloped. The mammals are the most developed and closest to Human beings. Yet human beings are in a different category altogether. Many say that human beings are just rational animals. But if that's the case we might as well just be rational stones. Human beings are different because they have a developed mind, a mind that is soaring high into the universe. A mind capable of realising its source and thereby ending the journey of evolution. Even within humans we have different degrees of expression of consciousness. we have developed human beings and more animal-like human beings. Some are attracted to the fine arts and to do something noble for the world whereas others are preoccupied solely with eating and sleeping. So we must stop calling human beings rational animals and instead embrace their own separate category. True, we may have many traits from animals within us due to the evolutionary process, but that is not sufficient to thrown in the same category.

[@stevenpham6734]

Why end evolution? So a purposeful universe went through all this incremental changes just to realize itself, to then lie idle and do nothing till the end of eternity? Realizing itself sounds like a final gigantic deal of nothing hah?

[@stevenpham6734]

Also your comment sound fishily eugenic.

[@turiiya1921]

@@stevenpham6734 "Why end evolution?" is the same question as "why start evolution?", why this creation at all? Who's the creator? We will most likely never know the answer to this since whoever or whatever has created it must lie outside our scope to comprehend it. Does an imaginary person in your mind know that it exists or why it does?

[@turiiya1921]

@@stevenpham6734 You say purposeful, but what is the purpose in your understanding?

[@turiiya1921]

@@stevenpham6734 the secret is that not everyone is released back to our creator at the same time. if that was so, who would take care of this world. one by one people merge their individual minds back into whence it came.

[@MsTaLaiah]

I hate that I completely zoned out toward the end. I’ll replay it later. 🙃

[@seanrowshandel1680]

Denis Noble is the most modern scientist I've ever heard of, BY FAR, and he might even rationalize the branch of non-forensic sciences one day. You'll be very entertained by him, based on what you said. I guarantee it. You may even "evolve" your perspective afterwards, and become stronger.

[@comfortablynumb9342]

Plants pick up minerals from the soil through the roots and a connection to fungus called mycorrhizae. The mineral starts in a rock, is broken down by various microbes and fungi, then is absorbed into the plant. I don't know for sure but I imagine changes occur to the minerals in the plant and when the plant dies it is consumed by microbes and the mineral might be absorbed into another plant. Would it be the same molecules? Or would they have changed/evolved into something else?

[@autisiens]

Anything that is "information or potential energy," evolves.

[@eboy4032]

The way stars take simple elements like hydrogen and through fusion make them into more complex elements. Humans are doing the same thing for matter. Life itself is this complexity increasing machine.

[@501Labsmusic]

Im now sad my pet rock actually has feelings and probably feels neglected.

[@randomoldcrone]

I never neglect my pet/found rocks. I hold them, admire them, and tell them they are beautiful. Then I tuck them back into their little rock beds. The Mother gifted them to me so I care for them. 🙃

[@karmageddon9856]

Modern man prescribes to a definition of "life" that is much too narrow; once we realize that EVERY THING is "alive" in its own way, no matter how small OR big it is, we have found a key that unlocks profound understanding of the entire expanse of Creation.. and deeper understanding of our own selves.

[@lm4836]

It's not shocking. Creation is the theory. Evolution is always happening, still. And always will.

[@atrinae]

I always knew my pet rocks were real

[@PebloNemo]

This sounds pretty much like Whitehead's concept of Creativity. Simplifying, the ultimate principle of reality is the emergence of novel things, which themselves interact to create more novelty

[@scottprather5645]

Interesting food for thought. I thought it had something to do with the appearance of pet rocks in the '70s?😬 But then again I'm not a geologist.

[@nerrade]

The laws of change should apply to everything. Whether it's humans or language or automobiles or ants, the same laws should apply. A change occurs for various reasons, that new trait is tried out in the real world and it either succeeds or fails. Success encourages the continuation of that trait. It would appear that atoms, molecules and chemicals abide by the same principles.

[@schoolofkuu]

I haven't watched it yet, but the fact people aren't collaborating to ensure the species survival indicates humans are devolving in my opinion. Add in technology replacing creative thought and critical thinking for the majority of people rather than supplementing it, and the average human cannot maintain the creative focus evolution is based on.

[@rebeccaconklin1679]

The great thing about having a pessimistic point of view is that, when things turn out better than expected, the pessimist gets a pleasant surprise. Not so for the optimist!🎉

[@mahakala]

we were all once a mineral.

[@CGMaat]

Beautiful - COSMIC UNITY!

[@michellemcfarland80]

💗❤️💗 Thank U!! 👌

[@Cory-v4w]

We can not pause coevolution. I am having way to much fun now.

[@CaddilacJoe1]

i hope quantom physics and quantom biology destroys the dualistic monotheist view of our existance to a more non-dualist frame work

[@Rholfy]

Very interesting, but there is a gap between the mineral world and the world of living beings, we do not yet know how life can arise spontaneously from the mineral world, minerals, wonderfully, do not evolve, they are a stable world. The world of living things if it changes, evolves in terms of varieties within each species and unfortunately they also disappear and so far we do not see new species in formation, that is the reality.

[@gettingstuffdoneright5332]

And so entropy is a type of de-evolution? btw, Darwin did not coin the phrase "survival of the fittest", it was English philosopher & sociologist Herbert Spencer in his 1864 book "Principles of Biology"

[@johnstout5623]

Conciousness infuses the whole material world. Its no wonder minerals have grown increasingly more complex.

[@markthornton7347]

I thought this was well established decades ago.. at least I knew it

[@ender749]

The earth evolved cities, and rockets

[@mrtienphysics666]

I look forward to reading his book. Check out Assembly Theory

[@zuzabarbuscakova2924]

love him

[@dimsim875]

Yeah using the second law, entropy in an open system will decrease

[@dominiqueubersfeld2282]

Is Dumbness a living thing or a non living thing ? Surely it evolves too.

[@RonanGallagherBand]

Is it possible that evolution started with the big bang?

[@nihil979]

A distinction has to be made, everything is affected by time, but not everything is evolution, to evolve mean in a way to be better ( survival of the fittest). On the contrary minerals are getting eroded by time. For me it is more a case of devolving than evolving.

[@LeadingIndicator]

For "you"? OK you must be a liberal. In the real world, the one outside your head, "evolve" means "unfold", not "improve". The rest of "your definition" is, as you indicate, "for you". Words actually have meanings that are not assigned by "you", or me, or anybody whom you will ever meet. Got it? Good luck there ...

[@HoangHieu-kv2sp]

I agree with part of your point, except the idea of devolving. In my own theory, I assume that only conscious entities that can adapt to their surrounding environment are capable of evolving. Since minerals do not possess consciousness, they do not evolve in the same way living organisms do. The changes observed in minerals are purely deterministic and driven by external influences, rather than by any internal, life-sustaining processes.

[@LeadingIndicator]

@@HoangHieu-kv2sp Adaptation ≄ Evolution, otherwise they'd be the same word. Do the math. Cheers.

[@SoManyButtonshere]

Hmm maybe go get your PhD before you tell this guy he's wrong

[@LeadingIndicator]

@@SoManyButtonshere Expert worship ... seriously? Let me guess, you took the jab, too. Wiser men don't trust the scientists; they trust the evidence.

[@1stMemberEver]

The more complex system, the faster it evolves. It took a long time until we saw AI, and now future doesn't need us.

[@emerosiochru]

Jesuit Teilhard de Chardin deduced that fact way back in the 1950s

[@nickmills8476]

Shades of Terence McKenna

[@EdwardHinton-qs4ry]

A rock isn't evolving, it's losing to entropy.

[@hatimboutros]

According to the book “Purposehood -Transform Your Life, Transform the World”: Everything evolves and expands exponentially.

[@zfid]

Amen

[@jonahblock]

nothing including us is actually alive so this makes sense,

[@BB-pm2uh]

Smart phone is minerals

[@BB-pm2uh]

AI is minerals too

[@harishkumarh8349]

brilliant We all know the process .....we don't know why...stories after stories

[@EdwardHinton-qs4ry]

What are you talking about?

[@ms.q7445]

duh

[@vthilton]

Hylozoizm

[@Brlitzkreig]

Is this a joke, now you expect us do believe this

[@MaximZemlyanoy]

Makes no sense. Just inappropriate usage of words

[@MitchMed]

Geologists need something better to do 😂

[@holgerjrgensen2166]

Rainbow picture our Eternal Life- and Consciousness-Circuit. Instinct, Gravity, Feeling, Intelligence, Intuition, Memory. Red, Orange, Yellow, Gree, Blue, Indigo. It is the Basic-Developing-Circuit, Plants is Instinct-Beings, first Developing-Zone. Memory is our highest Ability, it is here all Gold-Copies from the Developing-Circuit is accumulated, (Paradis) It is a Inner Life, as gradually out-Lives, and the Electricity cristalize into Mineral. Skeleton, skin, hair, nails, teets, is part of the Mineral-Kingdom. Mountains is the skeleton of Earths Organism, Poles is gristle. What is called Evolution, is In-Volving and Out-Volving in Developing-Zones. The Middle, culmination is turning-point. Mineral-Kingdom is the minimum-un-folding of Life. Poles is the opposite of Equator, in Life-Performance. Just some Eternal Essense. Three decades ago, some Canadian researchers also concluded that minerals is 'evolving'.

[@sitindogmas]

I think Terrance Howard was trying to explain that as well. we should listen to all ideas and thoughts, especially from brilliant minds ✌️💚 we could get there sooner if we weren't so greedy and stubborn

[@nuynobi]

@@sitindogmas I don't think we should listen to the ideas of someone who thinks 1 × 1 = 2. He's either stupid, dishonest, or crazy. Take your pick.

[@AuronDzilk]

We are all evolving all at once at the same time in the same place... How is that not common knowledge that's beyond me. The patherns of everything keep changing keep evolving day by day second by second. I wanna say that AI will help us evolve all together on a positive way if it's utilized and managed correctly 🫙

[@seanrowshandel1680]

Denis Noble is the most modern scientist I've ever heard of, BY FAR, and he might even rationalize the branch of non-forensic sciences one day. You'll be very entertained by him, based on what you said. I guarantee it. You may even "evolve" your perspective afterwards, and become stronger.