Are Wargaming Demo Teams in Trouble?

[@Siygess]

My memory on the subject is a little hazy (so please don't consider this fact), but didn't this all start because WotC wanted a bunch of judges to attend an event and they say no (they were unwilling or unable), and WotC essentially fired them (or imposed some disciplinary action which made the judge quit). The implication being that if you are a volunteer you are required to work as many hours as the parent company tells you to, without 'vacation' etc, but are subject to disciplinary action if you go against their rules.. and that in turn lead to this law suit where judges said "Fine, then treat us like employees, with pay, vacation etc." Again, don't consider this fact without doing a little more digging, but I think there is more to the WotC thing than it seems.

[@wulfrik1631]

No, that is not in the slightest bit anywhere close to what actually happened. WotC suspended a bunch of players who were also judges because they leaked some cards from a set early. The judge program then suspended those players because if your not allowed to play you shouldnt be allowed to judge.

[@phulcrum1984]

That's too bad to hear about Press Gangers. I used to be a Press Ganger and it was a great system and the people at Privateer Press that ran it were awesome to work with.

[@EdGrzetich]

Brilliant as always, Uncle A. Your next shirt should have "Pa-chow" on it and a hand pointing up towards the left shoulder. Maybe those could even be a secret sign between we, the minions of Minions. "Do you pa-chow?" "Darn tootin' I pa-chow!," I reply as I point up at my left shoulder with my right index finger.

[@Mr_Bunk]

We need more volunteer-staffed demo games in public places! I wouldn't be able to do that myself, due to too little time to spare for regular game practice, but I'm sure many others will be able to do demo games in public! I was introduced into wargaming by Games Workshop. It was only a slight introduction, though; I never played the rules, however, I used to buy a LOT of miniatures from them. Me and my brother were introduced to Flames of War by a demo game at Duxford Airshow years ago; it was a game in progress, and we merely watched, but it got us both really interested in Flames of War. My bro's grown out of wargaming, but I've kept my interest to this very day, where I've stumbled through my first games of Bolt Action. Had it not been for that one FoW demo game, I would not have likely gotten into B.A.

[@JonMcClainMusic]

I have always been a TCG player, and an occasional board game player, but recently I’ve started giving a tabletop game a shot, Kill Team. (skirmish games as opposed to army games made this possible for me to try). I’m loving your KZbin channel. It fascinates me that you talk about not only the different facets of the game, but you give a lot of great advice for life general. Your videos are perfect to listen to while painting. But onto my point... Recently games workshop gave this HUGE promo kit to the local shop to run a campaign. It has promo cards, tokens, dice, and the winners even get fancy metal medals. This in itself was part of the reason why I decided to try out the game, it was also enough motivation for a handful of other people to try the game out as well. So perhaps instead of giving free/cool stuff to people on these crews, they could try more event kits, entry level promotions, campaign kits etc. and give cool stuff to new/regular players.

[@NoraMeld]

I'd love to see an update on this conversation post covid, because this seems like such a different world we live in now

[@mandragoradravgis]

It's a downward spiral, a serious one. On the one hand hobby stores are suffering, on the other hand Kickstarter is supplanting the gaming store, and on a 3rd hand game investment costs continue to rise and rise - so when the one factor that eases people into the latter is kicked out from under the potential consumer public I really do worry for the future. I remember the video 'Power Creep' by Extra Credits kzbin.info/www/bejne/eKnWq6tsZb-qfdk at the 2:10 mark to 3:10. The cycle seems similar: new gamer A is intrigued by the game, related videogames, or youtube videos, buys a book and / or starter set, tries to get into the game, is not satisfied by the experience and so quits. Privateer Press is probably going to be ok, they have a high quality product. But I am one of those guys who is hooked on the story and so will never throw out his old books but is starting to look into what his fully painted Circle Orboros army will fetch on Ebay rather than buy an expansion card pack to upgrade to V3. And during this Mark transition Press Gangers should have been essential.

[@lord17c]

being a person who got the email you mention, I can confirm most of what you said. Though they did not mention the wizards law issue.

[@johnj7031]

ugh, great points made Uncle Atom but what a sore subject right?! I think the game stores holding events is the way to go, perhaps the manufacturers could take the product value of the merchandise they used to sell to the volunteers they could take that amount and turn it into a commission based amount or product to the individual who runs/judges the game and that attendance to the game become tracked. if a game doesn't happen due to attendance then no commission is passed out. I think this would encourage marketing efforts by ambitious volunteers/stores etc. perhaps the volunteer could use the game shops help with the advertisement in the form of time given to the employee to do a game demo, website postings, in store posters etc. I'm rambling now but I think if done correctly could still get the manufacturers what they should want and that is to gain more players to buy their products and the folks that are putting in the time and effort can still get something as a result of their efforts and since their employees of the game shop I don't think that would be the same thing as what WoTC got sewed over. come to think of it, a perk like this might lengthen the tenure of the employee since that would be one of the only ways they could earn free stuff!

[@BlackJackLegacy]

Maybe going forward any volunteers may have to sign a "contract" which protect the company from any future lawsuits. I don't think it will effect games like Warmachine which is why PP can do this but any smaller, new games will really take a kicking from this. New games rely on a growing community to get them out there.

[@elfriedaarts1195]

Privateer Press is also changing their forums up. They have a new community demo forum for their new Hordes faction. Rules and cards are given to those admitted, they are then meant to demo/test and critique findings to help find the blind spots devs may miss. They may just be trying out a bold new way of running things.

[@tabletopminions]

Change *is* the only constant. I keep thinking about getting that as a tattoo. Thanks for watching!

[@grantfoster8833]

Tabletop Minions The irony being that if you got that tattoo it would be perminant and never change. Keep the vids coming.

[@andrewhougard5461]

"At what point do you want to become an advocate and a demo person for the game, for very little to no benefit?" - Closing line of this video This is what is at the core of the WotC lawsuit. Whether it goes in favor of the company or the judges who feel their time and effort isn't being fairly compensated, THIS QUOTE is the crux of that disagreement. Magic Judges have to qualify for their levels of the Judge program by attending certain types of events or conferences. They also need to study rules interactions at a highly detailed level (the full Comp Rules is currently 222 pages long), and also need to understand player/tournament interactions so they can assign penalties based on breaking those rules. To actively participate in the program means signing up for and applying for events, wearing a uniform, and working a schedule that is determined by someone else. Often their involvement is for the entire day (8+ hours easily), can stretch over an entire weekend (multiple days), and compensation is typically comp'd lunch and promotional cards the value of which doesn't end up even touching minimum wage once compare card value to hours worked. Take all of this and multiply it a bunch because it isn't like you simply judge single events, but many judges are repeatedly leaned on - some on a weekly basis! Furthermore, because WotC requires that judges be a part of events of particular size/importance, being a judge might be a volunteer kinda thing, but HAVING a judge is in no way a volunteered exercise. Therefore, judges existing is not simply "better" for the game because it draws in more people, it is "required" in order to participate in the competitive/professional levels of Magic. When a judge is working, they are in essence representing the game and have authority to make decisions that WotC/DCI will respect and enforce as a matter of policy.

[@tabletopminions]

I can tell you I wouldn't do that for some free cards and a boxed lunch. But I'm not everyone. It'll be interesting to see how this shakes out for WotC. Even if the suit judges in their favor, I think they're going to lose a lot of their volunteers when those people find out how little they're appreciated, and then Magic/DCi will *have* to probably pay some people to get them to do the job. Thanks for watching!

[@TcMcCarthy1]

I just listened to you for 7 hours on a business trip/drive down to FL - great chan.

[@tabletopminions]

Wow, I hope you enjoyed the drive. Thanks for watching!

[@tabletopsouthafrica9604]

I agree wholeheartedly. It might set a precedent, but it will not stop me from demonstrating games to interested parties to help grow the local scene. Its easy to ask "how does it benefit me if company A gets a new player and makes more money"? Easy, it benefits you in that the game continues to grow, you get more opponents, you end up making more friends in the process and your miniatures dont become heavy paperweights.

[@tabletopminions]

You're absolutely right, and we need more people like you. Thanks for watching!

[@CritDamageMiniatureGames]

Great topic Atom. Its interesting that they say that it was very resource intensive to support people and a program that has the potential to bring more new players and life blood into a system. I think its going to be interesting to see how this will effect the scene overall. The Press gang not only demo'ed to people in the local scene's but many con's and bigger tournaments used to be run by the Press gang as members on the ground and now all of that experience and love will be gone. The press gang often used the points rewarded to cover and provide further prize support and not personal gain. One would hope that with these resources freed up that the PP will look to further push direct support to the stores for demo stock and promotional items. There will always be people that champion a game and build local meta's, it just helps and is smoother if the company directly supports that process! Time will tell how it will impact the scene :)

[@tabletopminions]

I agree; time will tell. Thanks for watching!

[@CaptainBipto]

I would love to be able to demo games at my local hobby store. I prefer skirmish games like This Is Not A Test, Scrappers, Rogue Stars and Frostgrave. As they are model neutral, people can use their minis from various games. And they can kitbash and convert minis. And the authors of the games benefit from feedback, additions to a Q&A and Erratas. I am in the process of making a Borderlands 2 themed crew using Infinity minis. Still need to get the minis to represent Salvador, Krieg, Zero, Deathtrap and Axtons turret. Also working out what models to get for an XCOM 2 crew, with Templars, Skirmishers and Reapers. And a Shadow Tactics: Blades of the Shogun crew, my go to faction is Yu Jing for minis. I even have a crazy idea for an Orkified Judge Dredd, Rogue Trooper and Robocop themed crew. Once Rogue Traders Kill Team is released, I have some ideas for that team. As well as Xeno Auxillaries for a Tau kill team.

[@jasonbecker2265]

I do work for a very large game company, and about a year ago they switched to a system where I had to fill out a W-9, get paid by check, and my "income" is reported to the IRS. This was done as a direct action to the WOTC lawsuit...I actually liked it better when we received free product (my wife didn't see how much compensation I was receiving and couldn't call it a waste of time).

[@tabletopminions]

Changing times, it seems. Thanks for watching!

[@johnsaugling5014]

Was a GW Outrider up till '00 or '01. Was a blast demo'ing and running tables at Games Day Baltimore. My tables always had a blast (pun intended). No body was safe from my silliness....not even adjacent tables. I would always get Basilisk and let the person running it know it had a 120" range.....most people got what I was saying....A few I would have to tell them "I bet you could reach that table over there!" I think part of the issue was when I became a GW Outrider you had to know all the rules for each core game. You had to prove you had high quality painted mini's and you had to have an interview and discussed rules and situations. Towards the end of my run it seems they opened the flood gates and started expanding the program and as new people got into the program the more issues we had. People where taking advantage of the program, saying they ran demo's when they didn't. The new Outrider didn't know that GW would send a form to the store asking for them to review your performance. I get why the program ended but it was still odd to me to get rid of the programs, the Outrider program was basically minimal cost advertising (we got paid in product, $75 credit for 4 hours of in store demo's and $125 credit for conventions). Seems like getting rid of some of the bad Outriders would've worked. I guess you can only take so much bad press about "volunteers" before you say enough. The best part was working Games Days. It was the only time GW would pay for you to stay in a Hotel. We would also get to tour GW HQ, see whats up and coming for the year and get to buy metal at $.10 a gram. It really worked out when you bought metal SM shoulder pads. $10 and you could get 100.

[@tabletopminions]

That does sound like fun. I never got to go to a GamesDay before they shut them down. Thanks for watching!

[@PostcastFromFiretopMountain]

Demo teams are very important for growing a particular product in this community. My history is in tabletop RPGs, and we used to have very big emphasis in these for conventions back in the day. But when a game reaches a certain level of self-sustainability, these kinda programs become more difficult to maintain and have more downsides to the company than benefits. I know that having these volounteers is important to each product, because we have loads of Malifaux players here, and two henchmen. No Guild Ball pundits though, and nobody in my town plays it. Personally, I'm thinking of volounteering for the Guild Ball one, because it's taken off in a lot of places here on the South coast of England and really is such a nice game that it deserves it.

[@invisiblepete4708]

Here's what I consider to be the prime benefit of conducting demos: sharing the joy of gaming. I have done demos for several companies, and for the most part did not take advantage of the "rewards" programs. I had fun playing the games, and even more fun teaching others to play, as well as kindling a pleasure for gaming. Regarding the WOTC lawsuit: It's a shame that the litigious aspect of our society has intruded upon our bailiwick. Now the rest of us will be forced to deal with the consequences of it. I do not believe that demo teams will completely go away, but that the manner in which they are defined and rewarded will have to change to protect the company (I would rather they spent money and time on game development, rather than paying lawyer's fees). Most people I have encountered demoing are there to have fun and share a means (that they believe) by which others can also have fun. Thanks, "Uncle" Atom, for bringing this to our attention!

[@tabletopminions]

Glad to help, "Invisible" Pete. We've both demoed lots of games for many companies, and I believe we always have done it for the same reasons: to spread the enjoyment of gaming. Thanks for watching!

[@KentuckyFriedGamers]

As a soon to be former Press Ganger I would like to add that while not unexpected, I do understand why they did it, doesn't make it any easier, but I understand. I, along with a ton of other PGers plan to continue to try to help out the community, but I plan to actually do more playing now than before. It was fun while it lasted, time for the next phase.

[@tabletopminions]

That's a great way to look at it. Thanks for watching!

[@sockMonster241]

A demo guy showed me how to play the Lord of the Rings table top game, well over a decade ago now. That was my first Wargaming experience, and it stuck with me, years later. The store I wandered into that day is no longer around, and I haven't seen anyone play that game since, but that one experience lead me to spend thousands later in life on 40K and flames of war.

[@tabletopminions]

Demos are very, very important in our hobby. Thanks for watching!

[@ronraducanu9633]

This vid (once again!) is coming at exactly the right time for me. I've recently discovered Infinity and LOVE it. I love the miniatures and love the game mechanics. Sadly, the only Warcors in my area are over an hour away. If I want to buy the miniatures or play, there is only one shop, and it is in West Philadelphia, which is about a 45 minute drive and over a $5 toll Bridge. There is no one in my immediate area that I can find that plays. Nobody. Once I get my army built and painted, I'm going to try a bit harder to find people around me and maybe be that guy to stimulate interest in the game. That all being said, the solution to this problem is actually quite simple. From a business model standpoint, it has to go through the FLGS. As I said, not only are there no games in my immediate area, but there are no shops that actually carry the line either. They can order it, but won't take up shelf space, which is precious, to have models in stock for a game no one plays (yet). For places like where I am, I would love to see Corvus Belli (CB) offer an incentive program to small shops like my FLGS to have some models in stock. At least the starter Boxes like Ice Storm or Red Veil. This way, at least, it's in front of the consumer. Then, the FLGS should get incentives from CB to have "Warcors" actually in their shop. The incentives should be from CB, but through the FLGS itself. For example, give the shop the ability to offer the Warcors discounts or exclusive models for free, etc. This takes the liability out of the hands of CB and gives the shops incentives to sell product and host games for the lesser known games, like Infinity. This also lets CB off the hook in dealing with the Warcors all together. It is in the LFGS' interest to do this. Win/win. The biggest problem is that the people who develop these games generally have very poor business sense and rely on people like Accountants and Lawyers to direct their business models. They don't always look at the end user and what they want. Case in point is Games Workshop. Up until very recently, their business model was horrible for the end user.

[@tabletopminions]

Very good points. You're right about the stores needing to be the cheerleaders for the game, however every store owner I know is generally swamped just trying to keep the store open. Thanks for watching!

[@CyberSammael]

I think that most of these game ambassadors are enthusiastic players first, and working for a loyalty scheme second. In my experience, these people are passionate about the games and the cool little extras are nice, but are really just saving them money on things that they would buy themselves anyway. I think that these people will always be there. They may not be as loyal to a single specific system, but a lot of games will simply have people who love them and want to get the word out, get players on board and ensure that their local store keeps stocking the shelves. I dont think that this change would affect that side of things so much, although I do think that these ambassadors would be more temporary and less likely to paddle upstream when the gaming environment isnt as supportive as they would like. Where I do see this having a big effect on are the local tournaments and promotional events, and this may be where some companies are turning to stores instead, not to push or advocate their game - although they wouldnt turn that down - but to set up one day and local tournaments and events with special recognition from the company. I am thinking specifically right now about Dropfleet Commander as we have a Hawk Talon local to us who has run regular store days once or twice each week since it launched and several one day tournaments with Hawk support in terms of pins and exclusives. The store has supported the Talon member but I dont think would welcome the role of organsing each of these events, which takes a lot of work.

[@absolutedominationgame157]

I've done demos for a couple of different games (and for different clubs, as well!). One thing that was an issue for the Prodos Crusaders program was that the free product you got meant fewer sales for the FLGS, so they weren't encouraged to stock the game you were showing. When you're one of only a dozen or so players, that's a hard barrow to push. I really think that it's important for the demo crew to feel like they are a part of the game's ongoing development, and that takes a little work (but not all that much). Present them with the beta versions of rules and get feedback. Show them the early sneak peeks, or at least some of them. Give them the ability to buy minis before the general public do. and sure, you can provide product in exchange for the work they do, but it might be just as easy to give them a % discount on their purchases from the FLGS, which can be redeemed by the store through the distributor to the publisher.

[@tabletopminions]

Very true: when you're one of the few players for a newer game, drowning those players in free product is certainly not the answer. Thanks for watching!

[@1Raskana]

I think this has less to do with the lawsuit and more to do with their stated reason. There has been a trend of Press Gangers that are never around and yet are earning points for hosting events. At the time there was no way for PP to verify other than the documentation supplied by the Press Gangers. I was a part of a Journeyman League prior to submitting an Application myself where the event organizer posted the event on PP forums and no where else. Finally some one else notified the local Facebook group and people showed up to Participate but the Press Ganger was never even seen during the entirety of the League yet earned the Points from PP for conducting a 6 week league. Form what I understand similar incidents have been occurring across the nation. It is a full time Job to manage 1000 people and make sure that they are representing your company in good faith. From what I understand that the Press Ganger Coordinator was not a full time position but an added duty to someone else in the company. It is within reason that they did not feel capable of creating a new system with new staff at this time and not in fear of an upcoming lawsuit..

[@pecktec]

It takes the community aspect right out.

[@terrainmancer6272]

Great thoughts. Sad that the Demo teams days are fading. GW got me started with Lord of the Rings back in 2000 and introduced me to the hobby. Feel bad for new comers who won't have this personal resource available. Keep on preaching Uncle Atom!

[@seankavanagh3742]

I've read the lawsuit and its unbelievable clearly a money grab if Wizards are smart it will hire those they wish and let the rest go (Mostly those who rocked the boat should be culled). It is scary thou and could see the end of honest people who wish to promote a hobby that they love and want to share - sad times that we live in where a quick cash grab out weights the passion of a beloved hobby

[@matthewsears7934]

WoTC is very mercenary with their dealings with LGS, so I don't have a lot of sympathy for them (and I play EDH). The ramifications for mid tier companies could be a bit more troublesome though.

[@JohnWestIV]

Less a money grab.. and more WotC violating the FLSA webapps.dol.gov/elaws/whd/flsa/docs/volunteers.asp

[@wulfrik1631]

Its really just a money grab. None of those judges were actually working for WotC. They were working for a third party company that WotC contracted to run a tournament. Any judge that worked for a tournament that was actually run by WotC has always been paid a cash wage.

[@Knightfall8]

tbh judges just need to be employees of WotC already. they expect judges to dedicate full-time energy to something that isn't a full-time job? Cmon, get real.

[@wulfrik1631]

Why would they be employees of wizards though? Judges work for and get paid by the place they are running tournaments for. It makes no sense for them to be employees of WotC when they are little more then a regulatory body.

[@charlesentrekin6607]

I was an outrider,then a Fan Pro Commando for Battletech both were great programs. Everything I got from the companies went for prizes in tournaments that I ran.

[@TheKiltyONeal]

Anyone who tries to sue gets a visit from Mr. Tickles.

[@adamskarka6471]

Privateer press plays around with an idea of official pubs/gamestores. The first one they have is in Czech Republic and is called BLACK OIL, they want to spread this concept through europe over the next year or two.

[@hethdavid]

Seems strange they would sue Wizards of the Coast to be considered an "employee" . At most they would be private contractors, so all it would accomplish is getting a 1099 form at the end of the year to pay taxes on.

[@tabletopminions]

However, what those judges were expected to do was surprising to me (the constant learning and studying, the amount of hours, etc.) and in those cases, I do wonder if WotC was asking too much for very little compensation. However, those judges could have just as easily decided *not* to "volunteer" anymore, as I'm sure this wasn't their only sources of income. It's a tough one. Thanks for watching!

[@jamesireland3135]

Such a shame that it only takes a couple of people to ruin it for everyone else. Its not very couth to volunteer your time then demand payment in return and then to take it as far as a lawsuit. Cant say I'm surprised that WotC are involved though.

[@LoftySkinner]

we are talking about the DCi, the governing body of Magic: the Gathering's competitive world, and you actually have to be kind of loopy to want to work under that as it is nowhere near the same as being a "demo guy" for a casual war game. We are talking about people who have to be on top of every rules change and every little detail in the most complex trading card game on earth. They are being ripped off with staff promo cards in return for often as much as a whole weekend of work, not counting research they have to do on their free time, and there is no way they should stand for it. The Pokémon company has a similar problem with their TCG. But Pokémon's tournament scene is pretty unprofessional by comparison. Those people who "ruin it for everybody else" have a right to do so, as they are being treated as, and punished as - but not rewarded as - *professionals* by DCI.

[@matthewsears7934]

Yeah being a DCI judge is a pain in the ass, I don't know why the few I know bother.

[@athanasiostachos6707]

Difference is,they are supposed to be doing this because they actually like it.Nobody enforced them.It's not like they are making a living out of it,so why should they ask for more?God it feels like this world only gets worse every day!

[@vegasvanguards8987]

The problem is, it's the law. No one can "Volunteer" for a for profit company. Granted, a lot of demo people do it for love of the game, but you also can't blame the guy who was like "I'm killing myself grinding magic events and constant rules updates, and I got a foil land. Fantastic". This is really Wizards fault for shedding light on what was already sort of a gray area by demanding so much from their judges for so little return.

[@JohnWestIV]

Vegas is correct. It's a violation of the FLSA for a for-profit org to use volunteers.

[@tarkhan15]

For me? It kinda means nothing. Theres never been a demo team for anything out in this tiny province except the local GW store. Theres a small warmachine crowd but they even have to paint their models with Citadel paints or go online, because nobody sells Privateer.

[@torlumnitor8230]

The only mini game that I currently. play is Xwing(as Runewars isn't out yet) and I got into it by watching youtube tutorials. The Beasts of War game weeks have peeked my intrest in both Wrath of Kings and Relic Knights.

[@tabletopminions]

That's what they're for. I'm glad they helped you out. Thanks for watching!

[@kiblams]

This is interesting! not sure this idea of demo games is so big over here in the UK outside of going into a GW and getting one in there. I think it's game advocates are a great scheme and it will be a sad loss though.

[@benedmunds1884]

This makes sense, under European law its called acquired rights. It can be a problem but there are ways round it. The use of interent is a valid option. But the simple way is to enter into a contract that defines the relationship correctly. However that then also comes with a cost - legal advice and a contract that meets individual rights in each geographical area. Difficult but not impossible.

[@GriMAoD]

This is why we can't have nice things.

[@06arnoldcharles]

I'd think of it as less working for the company but working for yourselves. You've discussed in the past about how to play with new people and in that you talked about being friendly too them, not stomping them, all in order to help get another player to keep play the game you play, so you can keep your game alive. I think this issue goes back to them, yes you would be benefiting the company by sending business their way, but you're also extremely benefiting yourself by bringing someone else into your hobby.

[@tabletopminions]

I prefer to demo games to get new people into the hobby. Thanks for watching!

[@JEGranberg]

Maybe the solution will be KZbin. Infinity had Beasts of War do some rule intros. GW did a video on Pile In rules for WH:AoSigmar. But there is something valuable about interaction with a teacher.

[@tabletopminions]

The KZbin videos do have a wide reach, certainly. But you're right: in-person interaction has a benefit all its own. Thanks for watching!

[@EngineerJeff]

It is a thankless job IMO. I was a Press Ganger for MK1 for a little over a year, and you're lucky if you have a store that cares enough to carry the product for the game, let alone sets aside a place for you to put on demos.

[@tabletopminions]

True. There's almost no Warmachine/Hordes players near where I live anymore, but there's still a pretty big scene down near Milwaukee, from what I understand. It's pretty regional. Thanks for watching!

[@OrionPax9]

Been a war gamer for nearly 20!years and my only experiences with people who were compensated for demoing games were terrible. They were all, for lack of a better term, d-bags. Instead of teaching you the game or showing you the features of the game they would rush an explanation of mechanics and then stomp you. Can't say I'm sad they are going the way of the dodo. However the majority of experiences with people who just want to show you a game they're excited about and aren't getting compensated by a company or program are almost always positive and have led me to playing those games.

[@WilliamFurby]

As a former Games Workshop Outrider, this video speaks to me. It's all about taxation and litigation. The official reason that GW disbanded the Outrider program was taxes. Because they compensated us (with product) we were going to be considered employees for tax purposes. It saddens me that an organization cannot give some small benefit to its dedicated volunteers without getting caught up in tax/legal issues. Our hobby is tiny and it takes effort to get new people interested. But if somebody doesn't do it, it will go away.

[@whilehobbying]

Weird lawsuit.. But that seems to be the case in a lot of cases that we hear about from the US. Then again, I think people will continue to demo games voluntarily either way. Especially here in Norway, our "dugnadsånd" (volunteering spirit), are pretty big. And a lot of us do it for selfish reasons: we want more opponents to play against! And I think youtube have taken over a lot of the teaching of the games!

[@Mr_Bunk]

Great idea, we need more volunteer-staffed demo games in public places! I wouldn't be able to do that myself, due to too little time to spare for regular game practice, but I'm sure many others will be able to do demo games in public!

[@tabletopminions]

That's why I run demos at conventions when I can: because I want more people to play against eventually. Thanks for watching!

[@simonmaxwell1384]

I think with some of the bigger companies stepping back from demos smaller game systems and their companies will try and fill the gap since filling the need is common in our wee industry... but who knows right?

[@tabletopminions]

Well, that's an interesting way to look at it, for sure. Maybe the smaller game companies will be able to capitalize on this. Thanks for watching!

[@blaked7532]

my LGS gives a bit of a discount (10%) to come in at least once a month and do a demo, any game my choice, so it lets me go through my collection and play things i dont 'normally' get a chance to :)

[@tabletopminions]

That's a very good idea, honestly. Thanks for watching!

[@ThePingasMightier]

I think that a big motivator here is that a combination of the Internet and locals who enjoy a game will do what demo teams were doing, minus legal complications (and the fact that in this modern age, working for a corporation to get discounts is really quite awful). A person or two makes a youtube video demonstrating the rules and if you're an experienced gamer you can decide whether or not you like the game from there. Anyone else likely needs/wants friends with interest in the game before they even look at the rules, anyway.

[@Rhone007]

The outtake was awesome!

[@Hobbywhiledad]

I was going to say maybe they see Channels like yours and MWG and the like as a free press for the game and the company. They could also create their own monthly vlog which would cost money to have 2-3 people produce a video but what is that cost vs cost of product from a points system?

[@tabletopminions]

I'm my opinion, most wargaming companies are under-utilizing their KZbin channels. However, I'm potentially biased, I'll admit. Thanks for watching!

[@Cybrdra6on]

This is what killed the Ultima Online volunteer program... lawsuits.

[@tabletopminions]

I'd never even heard of that, even though I played Ultima Online way, way, *way* back in the day. Thanks for watching!

[@robhutton7823]

well the way I see it I have a job, but I am heavily involved in the Dropzone Commander universe, they have a volunteers called Hawk Talons. I help out at some events and run my own events and get some support from hawk but it's what I want to do when I want to do it, I am not a Talons, but I will do what I can for the love of the game.

[@tabletopminions]

That's the way I usually look at it, as well. Thanks for watching!

[@cjanquart]

"Old Games Workshop did a lot of weird things." Yep, like promoting the metal band "Bolt Thrower".

[@leakycheese]

Chris Janquart Haha, I remember seeing adverts for their albums in old, old White Dwarfs.

[@cjanquart]

White Dwarf and Dragon magazines used to cross-sell advertising on each others magazines but someone upset someone else then they became us v. them.

[@tabletopminions]

I keep meaning to check out their music. I'll have to search around KZbin to find some stuff. Thanks for watching!

[@lunahula]

The gaming advocate video is an older video, but it checks out sir.

[@khadorstrong]

So I was against this completely, and then someone explained it pretty well, and now I'm not as much against it. The problem in part is injury. What happens if you are actively running an event and you bust your shit. Who pays for that? Also because bigger companies can own some of these smaller companies(such as WOTC being owned by Hasbro) so where does it stop? If WOTC(part of Hasbro) is allowed to have people who work for free product, would Hasbro then be able to do that in their other departments?

[@SciFiPorkChop28]

But frequently it is the location you are in that is responsible.. if you slip and fall @ Walmart.. inside or just outside Walmart.. buying card protectors because you are late to a MTG tournament... it is Walmart that is suppose to cover your injury (if you start a lawsuit)... so I don't know if Wotc or PP is suppose to cover a demo-game person who is "free-lance" because an old Metal Khador Jack fall on their pinkie toe... but then again, this is a lawsuit happy America and maybe that's part of it.

[@Panczekolada]

I think that PP is jumping the gun here if that's really the reason - to me the community supporter benefits are no different than, say, miniaturemarket's points system and stuff. Also those judges had no right to sue WotC, because the terms of the cooperation clearly stated otherwise. Not to mention that it's owned by Hasbro - fat chance battling a giant like that in courts over something so silly. Personally I believe that people who promote systems are very much needed, seeing how a couple games got a hold in my local community thanks to them and how I myself have brought new players into a couple games' fold. Now giving people like that benefits makes them all the more likely to promote your product, giving them incentives to go an extra mile for your sake.

[@PatGilliland]

In the old days, there were these things called books with pictures of little lead men. ;)

[@arnevanlamoen123]

"tiny industry," Atom? Really? You are going to let the opportunity to say 'mini industry' just sail by? Nooooooo!!!

[@Fatty4president]

As an old outrider and law student i hope to clearefy something. It has to do with laws. The outriders where disbannded because a european law. Every country in the eu has to have a fair chance in the market. If country A has outriders the gw product will sell more if country B hasnt got any they will sell less. So if the people from country B want to play games they go to country A. Making country B less money. So every country should have the same opperunities. And that lead to the disbanning of the outriders as they where now some still work with gw they go to stores and ask if they want to sell gw products

[@SciFiPorkChop28]

I feel like the issue is one of Community... if you are an avid gamer for game X... you want to grow game X... you probably post on game X's company website and talk to them at conventions... you then start running demos on your own... the company notices you and wants to thank you... so they send you bonus starter sets or L.E. models... does that make you a full time employee with privalages and health insurance? I don't think so... Maybe there just does need to be a more official contract between these people and their companies... and maybe it is just going to fall to the stores and dedicated gamers to run the events for fun without any compensation besides word of mouth and new gamers in your area to play with... It seems sad to me that it would come to this when the company is not abusing it's relationship with the demo groups... if that starts to happen, then yes, the demo groups need to take legal action... but trying to fight people that have the same hobby and interests as you and your friends seems very counter-community and counter-productive.

[@theviper5952]

actually the explanation you made in the first 30 seconds is true for me

[@franklee6113]

It's nice to have volunteers, but it's clearly the law, and it's the right law. I can't have you volunteer at my McDonald's for free food. What these gaming companies are doing is an obvious circumvention of labor laws in order not to pay fair wages to actual workers.

[@Johnny641]

Unfortunately all these type of schemes (it's not unique to war-gaming) are a form of exploitation IMHO. You are giving up your time to promote sales for a business, that is basically working for a company for almost free (even if you are having fun) Often these rewards are a discount which in reality is costing the company nothing and in turn means you not only give up time but only get a reward by giving the company more money. Unfortunately people don't see this as it is linked in with their hobby/passion and they are open to these forms of exploitation, they view it as a great reward but anyone that has been involved with marketing knows the reality (it's free advertising and promotion) It can be a good system but more often than not it is abused. I see already in the comments people can't really see the difference between these schemes and other forms of loyalty bonuses or sponsorship which is completely different. If companies want to promote and sell product they need to employ people to travel around and do it, whether that be on youtube channels or visiting shops. If companies need extra help at an event, they should be decent enough to offer a good reward for peoples time which doesnt involve a discount but at least a decent bundle of the companies products which would equate to a days work at minimum wage at the very least.

[@tabletopminions]

I feel like if the work is more than I want to do (basically for free) then I don't do it. Thanks for watching!

[@SleepyHollowRestoredMikeJohns]

Demos are the life blood of tabletop gaming! This is sad!

[@tabletopminions]

I agree. Thanks for watching!

[@unknownpolaroid9104]

I think the characterization of the law suit in the video (and in the comments below) are a b it unfair to the Judges that are suing Wizards. The fact is that Judges regularly work between 8 and 15 hours depending on the event, do tons of labor (like setting up tables, cameras, etc. in addition to then working at the event and breaking things down afterwards), they pay for their own lodging and transportation and they don't make a wage. The fact is that Wizards won't make money if they can't run events, and they can't run events without the labor pool of Judges. Imagine if you were asked to provide free, unpaid labor and also you wouldn't have enough time to eat or use the bathroom throughout the day and then on top of that you had to pay for your own expenses. I wouldn't think that was very fair to you or anyone else. Oh, and the law suit doesn't contend that they're employees of Wizards because they get paid by them but because the essential duties and responsibilities of the job and certification of Judges are all handled by Wizard's DCI; which is what the scope of an employer is defined as by the National Labor Relations Board.

[@kakalukio]

If they're contending that law then the whole thing makes a lot more sense, even if it remains weird... And it still begs the question, why don't they just refuse to Judge events from no on unless adequatly rewarded? I can't imagine that there are that many judges to begin with, so it's not like they're easily replaceable by Wizard. It's just a weird situation, you're perfectly aware what you're getting yourself into, you're not being misled. And it's not even like the volunteers are unfair competition for the "normal" judges who don't volunteer seeing as they're all volunteers. Mostly I suppose it comes down to the fact that there's no "professional" judges, which makes the whole thing unusual.

[@unknownpolaroid9104]

Because it would negatively impact the community they're a part of probably. If you knew that you couldn't go to play Warmachine or Warhammer or something at your FLGS without a particular person being there and there's a designated night where they're *definitely* going to be there, or a major tournament or something, and they don't go, who's your knee jerk person to blame here? The giant corporation that you may not even consider an employer of the dude, that isn't paying him proper compensation or the guy who didn't show up? Sure, but you're also expecting some form of compensation (most Judges get product for being a Judge) and Wizards is contending that has nothing to do with them, even though by the law they are the Judge's common law employer (since they control what events can be run, where they can be run, whether or not their sanctioned, who is or is not allowed to compete, who is or is not allowed to be Judge, etc). The best idea would probably be for Wizards to invest in creating a compensation system for Judges that sets them up with lodging and food and stuff as compensation or to formally create a Judge position and have them staff official, large scale events. Then FLGS and the large card shops like Star City Games and Channel Fireball can pay those judges to work their events when they need them. Small time FLGS' will be unaffected by most of this since their Judges are usually either just a local guy who doesn't expect compensation for helping on an occasional ruling or the guy who runs the shop is the de facto Judge.

[@wulfrik1631]

It in part depends on who was running the GP and in part on judges not understanding how much they product they were given was worth. Last time I worked a GP was three years or so ago but after selling what they gave me to a vendor I always walked away with over $500. I know some of the higher level judges made thousands for a single event.

[@michaelgrey1351]

*Had* Press Gangers.

[@zerrowolf6747]

Why don't they simply change their terms of conditions of the demo team agreements to make it clear that they are not employees? (in line with the law of course)

[@WilhelmvonBosch]

Having been a volunteer for a few cons and a game demonstrator, this is saddening. People looking to gouge the company providing you an opportunity to play, meet people, earn swag, and be on the forefront of what's developing in a line are going to hurt everyone in their quest for a 1099 from and the chance to say "Oh, I work for _________" at the afterparty....

[@LoftySkinner]

No, we are talking about the DCi, the governing body of Magic: the Gathering's competitive world, and you actually have to be kind of loopy to want to work under that as it is nowhere near the same as being a "demo guy" for a casual war game. We are talking about people who have to be on top of every rules change and every little detail in the most complex trading card game on earth. They are being ripped off with staff promo cards in return for often as much as a whole weekend of work, not counting research they have to do on their free time, and there is no way they should stand for it. The Pokémon company has a similar problem with their TCG. But Pokémon's tournament scene is pretty unprofessional by comparison.

[@HexydiaHQ]

Do KZbinrs' demos provide the largest community support for a miniature game (or any game) in 2017? Is this enough to sustain the sales? Today and tomorrow, who hold the leadership to switch sales from "off" to "on" and maintain a hype around games, who generate a content that is (most of the time) free from any charge for a studio, "mainstreamed" by huge human referent acting (mostly unintentionally) as a good hints friend, brother, expert etc (no criticism) ? If you consider internet 2.0 (youtube, websites, streaming, social medias) as the main sales-generator tool in 2017 and further, local demos may appear as a waste of time and investment (pushing this to local store as next step?).

[@ParadoxHazard]

Pressganger here. Yes, we did get an e-mail with pretty much stated the gang got a little too big for PP to handle. However, a lot of us suspect it had a lot to do with the Wizards lawsuit. One thing I want to stress, that people should really know, is that we weren't kicked to the curb or sent packing. There has huge outpouring of thanks from PP and this is clearly a choice they had to make, not a choice they wanted to make. The Pressgangers are also not going to disappear overnight. We were all "advocates for the game" well before we put on the black and white. A lot of us plan to continue on as we have been, running demos and organizing events. The Pressgang may be gone but our love of the game isn't. Part of the crew, part of the ship has become the motto as of late.

[@chriskoeder793]

Anthony Rauseo Seems like Privateer Press has been making a lot of bad moves as of late.

[@tabletopminions]

I kind of figure the more passionate of the pressgangers was going to keep running events and demos for the game. I'm hoping that will happen. Thanks for watching!

[@AutieGeek]

As a former MIB for Steve Jackson games I can say that sounds suspect.

[@c4darkmane305]

quit gutted about the PG thing, now i can't afford to stay in the game, i'll either have to work more to buy models, tokens, supplies & have less time to play. or just carry on with what i have and slowly slip out of the Meta. (lol as if i had enough in the 1st place) I'm pretty sure the smaller communities will suffer 1st, which will then bleed into less folk going to the bigger events. Even they kicked me out and streamlined the system, that would be better than no Pressgangers at all. some Pressgangers (far better than me) literally are the community and people play the games because of experience put on by those people, only time will tell if it continues without the Pressganger community.

[@tabletopminions]

I'm sorry to hear about that. Thanks for watching!

[@kracin]

oh yeah, getting the stores involved....... what? how is that going to work when every single company wants the store to do that, and makes it like GW where it's part of the contract of distributing that game? they'll just not carry the game because they can't put their own labor toward teaching people how to play a game they wanted to sell.

[@tabletopminions]

It's certainly a problem, I agree. Maybe the stores can get people to demo games for them in exchange for a store discount or something. Not sure if that'd put us in the same legal quagmire or not. Thanks for watching!

[@HO-bndk]

0:03 "...who teach you and ME..." Come on!

[@greenghost2008]

"we are now employees" No. if they are anything they are contracters.

[@Ruinstad694]

I could see wargame companies going over too sponsored content with KZbinrs and twitch channels where they support them with starter boxes and so fourth in exchange for battle reports.

[@matthewsears7934]

Unless you are a hype game that works out maybe 20% of the time sadly.

[@ChazCharlie1]

Darren Chomyn this is already happening with youtubers like SS82.

[@Ruinstad694]

Thats unfortunate Matt it seems like one of the few moments that can be mirrored from the video game industry with some success but i could see where the biggest wargaming channels are 40k and AOS. that said pushing channels like geek and sundry could be worth it but doing a company hosted demo with a channel like that

[@MrJudda1994]

Can't they just make volunteers sign an agreement saying they are getting a gift for their time but that's is not payment. If they sign then they are saying they won't be able to sue?

[@Meksworld]

the letter is real...

[@blakenoneya2597]

As someone who is working on becoming both a Warcor and a Henchman, I'd be really upset if this becomes a trend. I already help with MtG and have a judge test coming up. I love games and gaming. Love running and teaching them. This would be quite upsetting to a number of people I know.

[@tabletopminions]

I agree. It'll be interesting to see what happens. Thanks for watching!

[@PiemasterXL]

I'm online right now?

[@1257Dark]

The WotC case is pretty different than "a couple of dudes sue." The short version is that there's a class action suit that claims that since WotC was requiring (L2+) judges to travel to WotC run events or lose the ability to run events at stores, in addition to the battery of tests and referrals required of them, again by WotC directly, that they had the right of an employee not to be summarily dismissed or suspended without cause. None of that is relevant to the Press Gang program of course. The PP Judge program, which runs things like Lock N Load. are not part of the PG program. I don't know if the Privater Press upper management is aware of what is going on with the suit or not, and I'm not saying that the suit didn't influence the decision, but it is possible that something else is going on.

[@MankuMan010]

I think this badly effect all mini games but Magic will be fine.

[@tabletopminions]

I dunno. Depending on how the case goes for WotC, they might have to start paying judges to work. We'll see how it goes. Thanks for watching!

[@rustymcnally]

I feel if you're in a relationship with a company where you are providing your time to do work for them, the company are reimbursing you with benefits for doing so, and they are making money off of your labour...that's a job. I don't think people should be selling themselves short by providing work as part of official schemes if they're not getting paid. You're selling yourself short, and deserve reimbursement. That being said, being an advocate of a game, running games at your house etc is A) a fun thing to do, and B) still going to help the game.

[@Panczekolada]

rustymcnally Many stores offer you benefits for spending money giving you points and other stuff. And they make a profit on you. It's not really different - demo people are just that - preferable customers who get some nice extra for helping the product reach more people. Another analogy would be "if you promote our cosmetics in your area, you get a couple benefits" or "refer a friend and you get benefits". The only difference is the kind of activity needed to get those benefits. That ain't a job for me and the terms should clearly state so. If I tell you to promote my book for a reward copy I am not employing you, I ain't paying your insurance or taxes for you. It's volunteering to get a particular benefit 's all.

[@rustymcnally]

I can only speak with regard to laws in the UK, but if someone provides work or provides services personally for a company, and is rewarded for that work, they're a worker. (Unless they're freelance.) There is dispensation for charities and public bodies. But if a private company is getting people to work for them without paying them minimum wage, that person is being exploited, and the employer is devaluing the work that they are doing. I get what you're saying about Recommend a Friend Schemes, but there is a clear difference I think.

[@ausaskar]

I can totally see your logic, and as an Australian with similar laws I know it's important that these rules exist, "unpaid work" loopholes harm the most vulnerable in society and lead to a race to the bottom which only benefits the fatcats at the top. But on the other hand Atom has a point when he says Wargaming companies are tiny operations. If they were faced with a choice of making their demo guys employees or cutting them off, they'd have no choice but to let them go and let demo-cuture go extinct. It's a difficult issue, can a person volunteer to produce value for a private company without compensation? And can we make sure such a system is not exploited?

[@ronraducanu9633]

It's not a job unless there is a written agreement between both parties. Most of the people who do this, do it in good faith. That's what a "volunteer" is. I volunteer in my community and they give me coffee and donuts. They certainly profit from my volunteer work.

[@Panczekolada]

@Rustymcnally I guess the laws work differently in different countries. You speak of providing services, but depending on the law at work and the wording it may be just volunteering with rewards. See - if a company makes a contest for, say, concept art with the said art being used as a reward, it's neither a job nor an order of services. And they make a profit after all, as they benefit from your work and get a "free" service. I think it's called civic/civil agreement or civil law contract in my country, where if the company says "hey, if you do this for us, you get that" and it's not equal to employment - if you agree to those terms you aren't employed by that company. You just agree to those particular terms. In fact I believe it's not really different from referrals, only that you physically go to a store and refer it by demoing the game. Overall providing rewards for community activities isn't equal to employing someone. You can give points to posters on forums, you can give free candy to people who bring customers to your store, you can give packs of tea as a reward for people who organize tea drinking meetings and stuff. I'd argue that you are well aware of the terms of such program and if it says that it isn't equal to employment, you have nothing to argue about in that regard - you should've read the terms, ignorantia iuris nocet. That being said it of course depends on the laws, I guess it's easier to pull the whole program rather than start wondering whether some countries' laws will actually work against the company in that regard. @Ausaskar That's the whole point, you can volunteer if you want to. I mean... it's voluntary, as the name says. If you volunteer to help you expect no payment. Rewards aren't payment either. As for being exploited - people always find loopholes, it's inevitable when someone can make profit. Thankfully when it comes to wargaming we have the convenience of the fact that it's a hobby and we all do it for our own joy. God damnit, now I want to go and read the terms and conditions of being a Press Ganger to see how they worded it all. :D

[@ddis29]

press-gangers, that's great very clever. "hey, you. how would like the experience the glory of war. what an adventure." :)

[@vonsaponatheim3736]

Game companies want the store owners to advocate for the games they hold in store... isn't that already their jobs?

[@psyberwolfe]

This also doesn't portend well for conventions because volunteers are the lifeblood of cons.

[@nisvaras]

I Watch your videos because a I need improve my Listening in English. And are very interesting too :D!

[@tabletopminions]

I'm glad to help. Thanks for watching!

[@tatertheraccoon]

The companies should be paying these people real money as independent contractors. Volunteering at for profit businesses is pretty ridiculous.

[@athanasiostachos6707]

it's complicated because for them it is a profession while for us it's a hobby.If 1)I wanted to organise a monthly "Paint your 18th century 1/300 scale Ship" , 2) only X company provided these kind of ships in my area/country ,3)I got people involved who buy the ships ,emailed the company and they offer me free 1/300 sailors should I demand more?Perhaps that I am treated as a worker and get paid?Seems odd..

[@tatertheraccoon]

If anything they are breaching the FLSA in the united states which specifically states that a for profit private sector company cannot have volunteer employees. Something can be a hobby of a person and still be a job. The companies are organizing people to be liaisons for their product without legally required compensation.

[@CronusandRhea]

I read on 4chan /tg/ that the Infinity demo team power plays and kills off new players in two turns. Then the same people go report their wins as true wins against other good player to boost their reputation. What they don't do is seed interest in the game to bring new customers rather than obliterating these potential new players.

[@tabletopminions]

That sounds like a terrible thing for the Infinity community. Thanks for watching!

[@alexandercrumulent271]

Always comes out of California....

[@magunra3k]

i think the solution is a company who produces a wargame should have a place where people can pop along for a demo game and also buy the company's products and sundry items like paint and glue or books etc, a bit like store but also like a game club rolled into one and the best part is it only sells its own products , now the company that follows that template will be top of the pile!

[@ColonelSchafer]

If companies want people promoting their game on their terms they should pay them.

[@andrewhedrick1612]

The case was decided in Wizard's favor, because it is very plainly stated that it is on a volunteer basis.

[@IDICBeer]

Very interesting, nice chat

[@Manga_Lloyd]

I am making this comment only halfway through the video, but I hope this doesn't start a trend in wargaming or MTG. If they need to sign contracts emphasizing the fact that they are volunteers so be it, but doing away with demo teams and judges can only be bad for the hobbies.

[@affluentimaginings]

Personally, I think this will be the beginning of all gaming companies ceasing to have demo teams. And depending on how much effort and headache Wotc decides they want to continually endure, MTG players are going to be losers from all this, as well as the rest of us hobbyists. If I were Wotc I wouldn't hesitate to cut all Judges programs and cease all local level sanctioned tournaments/events. It wouldn't be worth the resources, liability, or expense. Magic players could be limited to maybe 3 sanctioned (and expensive) tournament opportunities a year. Regional, National, World. Then there's all the other gaming companies, mostly all small with limited and tiny revenue streams that constitute the majority of the hobby. They can't afford "demo teams" as employees. How many more and how much faster will these small companies fail because they have less ways to promote, market, and advertise their games? This action will ultimately cause severe damage to the gaming hobby in general in my opinion. These judges are scum. If you didn't like and enjoy the duties you knew you consented to provide when you chose to become a judge then why do it or continue to do it in the first place?

[@HeadHunterSix]

The difference is, as far as I know, no one wins cash prizes for participating in Warmahordes demos. Magic has awarded cash prizes at major tournaments. I can't see any comparison between Warmahordes and Magic in that regard.

[@fullrefund8812]

Why are Americans always suing people?

[@redgreen09]

well i dont remend GW games if some ask i show the minis the thing if just stop changing the ruels and books then i say hay play this WISH THAY HAVE LAST EDD isay if like try out difen army do dawn of war one with the UA mod and get an idaer ofthe armys and if to the mini game youhave some to go on and the demo guy itd a job and get payed fore it see adum runes evry thing

[@Tvboy777]

Sorry, love your channel, but you should do a little research before making a video, I think you painted these judges in an unfair light. Most people are probably going to watch your video, formulate an opinion based on that without doing any follow up research. First off, it's important to understand there are different levels of judge in Magic. Being a level 2 or 3 judge means you are traveling to events, setting up tables and chairs, managing other judges and employees, etc and you are required to invest a minimum number of hours a year doing this if you want to keep your level, and are also expected to put in hundreds of hours a year studying multiple rules enforcement documents (and proving it) and producing written content for the program and the community. This goes way beyond what any volunteer is expected to do, I doubt most game demoer even come close to having these kinds of requirements. The other thing you have to realize is that no judge starts at that level of commitment, they all start at level 1, answering questions at their local store, which is more within the scope of a volunteer. But t then they see the higher level judges above them that are highly venerated and respected within the community and are encouraged to ascend within the ranks. It's a way of slowly sucking people in to committing more and more of their time and energy without them realizing it, and even when they do the sunk cost mentality keeps them from leaving until complete burn out finally sets in.