I usually lean more to the fuller sounding heads, so i would go with the subzero 93. Can't go wrong with either.
@StratEdition Жыл бұрын
Definitely the X. Love that tight sound but the classic distortion
@pavellysovliveindemos Жыл бұрын
they all cool. But interesting hearing with diferent cabinets! I more like 93!
@ThyFinalPain Жыл бұрын
Marshall JCM800 2203. Because it works. 😂
@matthewfritz Жыл бұрын
I think I'd go with the 93 for more of an Orange or doom-y vibe and the X for something like a 5150 with more character. Also, I'm going to go out on a limb and say "FTBK" with a positional switch like that on the MLC SubZero X may be an abbreviation for "front" and "back". Since it's under and between the Bass and Mid knobs on the front panel, maybe it changes the location of where the lows and mids are being created physically in the head or being placed in the output signal? The tone sounded like it changed a bit spatially when you switched it back and forth too.
@Producelikeapro Жыл бұрын
I'm not sure if ANYONE is as Metal as you! I will try! Thanks for the great video!
@Curtis.720 Жыл бұрын
Vogg endorsing these amps as well… the tone he’s getting out of his mlc with that 7 string custom shop Ibanez is so metal. Great content as usual, love your channel for all things metal ☠️
@hyperbolekid Жыл бұрын
Is that an amp for Phil X (hence called the X)? Saw him with the MLC guys and they are having an X 4x12 cabinet coming out. Love MLC’s subzero 100s
@joshfairbanks33 Жыл бұрын
YES to a video on the cabs! Both of these amps sound amazing!
@darrencpayne Жыл бұрын
Nice one. Enjoyed your presentation of both amps. Authentic and to the point. If in the market, I would probably go for the first one, as it would seem to take pedals better.
@ethanstork666 Жыл бұрын
Love my warehouse speakers they rip, thank you for the demo. Been in love with mlc for years, now I need one😥
@KohleAudioKult Жыл бұрын
Which speakers do you use?
@ethanstork666 Жыл бұрын
@Kohlekeller Studio I have a Reaper hp in a 6505+ 112 and two V-30s in a cab rn. I might invest in 3 more reapers in the future, I love the dark sound they have
@RyvenProductions Жыл бұрын
That beard of yours is looking good. And those amps look and sound incredible. Cheers 🍻🤘
@dmitriblake61 Жыл бұрын
Kohle! I hope you make a video about the cabinets. Those things are super important!
@resington Жыл бұрын
Yes MLC cab video!
@victorreee7012 Жыл бұрын
I wanna hear these in a mix!
@stevenslater4395 Жыл бұрын
Love these gear showing vids. Not telling you how to run your channel but id love to see how some of these German amps sound compared to known amps like Mesas, Orange.. whatever, just in terms of tone. Showing how you bet these tones is very helpful as well.
@KohleAudioKult Жыл бұрын
Thanks! Which German amps do you mean? I have used Engls, Diezels and a Driftwood in my videos so far!
@stevenslater4395 Жыл бұрын
@@KohleAudioKult yes I know you convinced me to get one. I guess what I’m saying is that sometimes its hard to hear the nuances of a certain amp, and comparing them (like you have before) is really helpful for people trying to narrow it down. Awesome channel 🤘
@evil_in_your_closet Жыл бұрын
Interesting! Pricey, but interesting! I think, the SubZero-X blended with something more "typical", thicker, like a 5150, might sound cool!
@KohleAudioKult Жыл бұрын
Yes! Absolutely
@將軍英雄MILITARYHERO Жыл бұрын
Keep both to get both world in 1 recording!
@StratEdition Жыл бұрын
Nice amps! I knew about the Vogg signature model but not these. Do you have any plans to demo those bluguitar amps? I noticed you have one of those laying around
@KohleAudioKult Жыл бұрын
Maybe I should do that!
@Nekonix36 Жыл бұрын
I really really like the Subzero X. That twangy spankiness really does it for me. To me it feels like its maintaining some of the original characteristic of the instrument. Maybe not what's happening on a technical level, but that is how it feels to me.
@trevorphilips9484 Жыл бұрын
It has a Fortin Meshuggah vibe to it, in that twangy, percussive respect.
@Demonik44 Жыл бұрын
i love my dv-77 set into my hand made oversized custom 2x12 cab !!
@KohleAudioKult Жыл бұрын
Good choice!
@kylecalandrelle7209 Жыл бұрын
Sick amps. Really liked both. Def try out the cabs for us🤘🏻
@KohleAudioKult Жыл бұрын
Will do!
@mentox6592 Жыл бұрын
There’s a certain high mid sound i associate with any demo you do Edit: I wonder if it’s a sound you’re looking for every time or if it’s something about the interface you use. I’m sure i can pick your tones (compared to for example glenn or ola) in a blind test 90% of the time
@nicholasmullins3693 Жыл бұрын
The interface has a flat frequency response going in. It would be the choice of microphone, speaker, and positioning on that speaker.
@KohleAudioKult Жыл бұрын
Yes, what Nicholas said. It’s the miking and the way I dial in amps probably. But my tones are usually way closer to a “mix ready sound” than on most other KZbin channels. Keep that in mind
@Brandon-RZ Жыл бұрын
Mix ready tones vs not. Kohle actually mixes records for a living. Glenn is a KZbinr, and Ola will tell you himself he’s not a mix engineer lol.
@brandonjackson5865 Жыл бұрын
I think it’s important that Glenn and this channel are going for more produced sound good in the mix tones. Sometimes Glenn will play something and say it sounds awesome and it really doesn’t to me but it works in the mix. Glenn seems to go for a more fizzy tone than I like. Ola gets the most crushing tone he can get but I think approaches it much more as the sounds he likes in the room, I bet his recording and live tones sound different than what he demos. Euge always starts with a complete song mix on his demos and then he breaks down the tone and gear and how he gets it. He’s another guy that always gets his tone out of anything.
@acidbath3226 Жыл бұрын
every individual thing you use acts as its own plug in for the final result
@cornholy69 Жыл бұрын
Love those tones, both amps are👌🏻👌🏻. Would love to see a video with the cabs. 🤘🏼
@paperhanger29 Жыл бұрын
I own 7 fernandes guitars. Vertigo elite, delux and Riggs sig. 2 MiJ from the 80s and 2 limited 7 string baritone revolvers....but damn I want that Revelle 😂 love the Fernandes love!
@KohleAudioKult Жыл бұрын
Get one!
@riccardocuoghi2071 Жыл бұрын
I love how you you deal your guitar sound. Hoping to see some Kemper pack from you
@MrSneakyPants Жыл бұрын
The more articulate amp (Sub Zero X) sounds like a modded JCM 800. It's interesting because both amps sound like they can do the extreme settings on a modeler that the real amp equivalents usually wouldn't be able to pull off without post-mix adjustments. That's pretty cool since most modeling amp users like to heavily tweak the sound of classic amps.
@TheMarauder1974 Жыл бұрын
Loving the Metal Imam look
@John-mh9ty Жыл бұрын
Metal Imam/ SoCal penitentiary look.
@richardpretorius4929 Жыл бұрын
Great video, Kristian! And, I'd love to see a video with the MLC cabinets, too. Question: If you were going for the 8 string djent style sound, how would you mic the cabinet differently? Or would you rather just change something else in the signal chain, like selecting a different amp like the Sub Zero X, for example?
@KohleAudioKult Жыл бұрын
It's been a while that I reamped some 8 string stuff. But I'm actually waiting for a guitar will go into 8-string territory and I'm sure i'm gonna do a few videos about it!
@alejandrodiaz8978 Жыл бұрын
An 8 string through the sub zero X for clarity and definition mixed with some very compressed and huge sounding amp like a rockerverb could be something impressive
@jeffkellogg76 Жыл бұрын
Yes please compare the MLC cabs to your favorite cab in your studio
@BlvckjvckRecordings Жыл бұрын
Yes to the cabs!
@KohleAudioKult Жыл бұрын
noted!
@owendowling5639 Жыл бұрын
Love the Subzero 93 on the first mode setting, has a bit of 5150 flavour but definitely more modern and sings. Would love a subzero X.
@caffiend453 Жыл бұрын
dear lord that subzero x is right up my alley, wish these were readily available/affordable
@KohleAudioKult Жыл бұрын
Here I used it on bass. Pretty sexy sounding too! In the STUDIO with DAVE ELLEFSON (ex Megadeth, Dieth)! kzbin.info/www/bejne/oaKwYnl3orh9p80
@king-kore-studios Жыл бұрын
Very nice amps you have there Evil one!! Nice and simple, plug in and go!!! 🤘
@drrodopszin Жыл бұрын
It's a trick question. The one that works in a mix. I made the mistake several times of thinking something would be "huuuge" and then it was flappy. That said, both sounded nice.
@josephbutler148 Жыл бұрын
You refer to twangy like that's a good thing lol. They are both very raw yet crisp but very mushy in the gain with that static like gritty edge that lingers like the evh. The brunetti is little more organic and refined like a mesa the ege doesn't make it mushy. If I wanted that crisp hifi like sound I would probably go for engl or diezel otherwise u can't beat a good recto... I would still love to try an mlc in the flesh to see 1st hand who knows they might be amazing \m/ keep up the good work \m/
@chuckbontrager5747 Жыл бұрын
Cab rundown, please!
@KohleAudioKult Жыл бұрын
Noted!
@AlexGuitarrr Жыл бұрын
both of the amps sound awesome! \m/ But the subzero - x.....holy. This would be my choice. Love the beefy, dirty sound and still clear af \m/
@harryanderson7282 Жыл бұрын
It would be interesting to hear both amps being blended together.
@KohleAudioKult Жыл бұрын
Indeed 😇
@JesterDyne Жыл бұрын
Nicer Scheiß!! In fact Dimmu Guitars always sounded nice and balanced. I like that thing, because it is 5150ish... that sizzle in the highs sound familiar. Jep review that Cabs! If i get that right they have the V30 and Greenback 25 like Speakers. And i already have a DV-77!!! :D But i also have 1998 Greenbacks... damn they are so mean and evil... And i have a Brunetti XL 120... thank you very much for that Tip!
@KohleAudioKult Жыл бұрын
You might be right about the high end thingy. Looks like you made some good gear choices!
@Demonik44 Жыл бұрын
tone preference for the sub zero dimur
@o.phillips2522 Жыл бұрын
Have you thought about re-capturing some new DV-77 IRs now that you've had them long enough to get them past the break-in period?
@KohleAudioKult Жыл бұрын
I might do some new DV77 IRs. But rather because I have some new mics. Not because of the break-in.
@diezelvh4133 Жыл бұрын
What exactly is happening during the break in period on a speaker.. Is it kinda like how wood effects an electric guitar..
@AllMetalReview Жыл бұрын
Vogg vs 93 be a great video. Bout to trade my badlander for the 93
@aquaterraadventures3861 Жыл бұрын
I missed it in the video, what cabinet were you using?
@KohleAudioKult Жыл бұрын
Mesa 4x12 loaded with DV77s
@aquaterraadventures3861 Жыл бұрын
@@KohleAudioKult Cool thanks. Sounded great
@scentia_est Жыл бұрын
@@KohleAudioKultmic'd up probably?
@fleekwoodmac3705 Жыл бұрын
The sub zero-white one sounds like someone managed a ton of gain onto the top boost of a Vox AC15.
@needsLITHIUM Жыл бұрын
I know Silenoz used to use Blackstar amps back in the In Sorte Diaboli days. Interesting to see how this amp sounds in comparison.
@TheManglerPolishDeathMetal Жыл бұрын
Huuuge improvement
@loredanamassini9484 Жыл бұрын
4:01
@guitarsgearandgoodvibeswit7306 Жыл бұрын
I would love to see more of the WGS shot out against their competitors in a video. You do some of the best speaker videos on KZbin, especially when it comes to high gain.
@KohleAudioKult Жыл бұрын
You mean the cabs?
@guitarsgearandgoodvibeswit7306 Жыл бұрын
@@KohleAudioKult absolutely, but also a shoot out of WGS like the Veteran 30 vs Vintage 30, Green Beret vs Greenback, etc. But I am very curious about those 2 cabs in the video as well.
@slav5417 Жыл бұрын
Hi Kohle! Definitely in Poland know how to make High Gain Amps...Because Poland is Metal!!
@matrixmodulator Жыл бұрын
lmfao the spikes on the matching cab
@jamesfindice2871 Жыл бұрын
Bestimmt schon oft gefragt und beantwortet worden aber: What model is your ravelle? Deluxe, elite or custom? And where is it made? China, korea, japan? I'm searching for one and usually i find those non baritone models with other finishes and made in china mostly. I could do with a black one/white binding with a regular scale. Its just so beautiful
@KohleAudioKult Жыл бұрын
I think there was only one baritone model and I’m pretty sure it was made in Korea.
@needsLITHIUM Жыл бұрын
That X amp really sounds like it would work well for one of those blackened deathcore type bands.
@TheRodge2112 Жыл бұрын
Assumed they were plugins. Glad to see real amps. Plugins are fine but not the same.
@thomaskrahl2502 Жыл бұрын
Kepp going. This riff IS just on of the best riff i learned (or I keep learning) thanks for this tuto and thanks for polyphia music.
@treewisemenllc7281 Жыл бұрын
My Grandma said she really wants to hear what those cabs sound like, Kohle!
@KohleAudioKult Жыл бұрын
🤘
@TheOtherJohnBrowne Жыл бұрын
I want all three amps...
@martinschubert7031 Жыл бұрын
I'd love to hear some low tuned bass going through the Subzero-X ;)
@KohleAudioKult Жыл бұрын
I think we've used it when Dave Ellefson was recording here. There will be a course / documentary about it soon inside KOHLE AUDIO KULT
@DavePowell666 Жыл бұрын
Yeah that Subzero 93 is a bit sexy. Pair that with one of those Arachnid Cabinets- I need that level of evil in my life! 😈
@KohleAudioKult Жыл бұрын
Doesn't get more evil looking than that!
@havardask Жыл бұрын
«Sven Atle Kopperud» Is his name 🙂
@Catywampus_Kerfuffle Жыл бұрын
That is the only amp that can exponentially have a better shot at revenge the more beer you place on top of it.
@metalfather8139 Жыл бұрын
i was hoping you would turn knobs on one of these!!!
@KohleAudioKult Жыл бұрын
??? That's what I did right?
@metalfather8139 Жыл бұрын
@@KohleAudioKult yes turn knobs is slang for chk one out. did great
@wspeed657 Жыл бұрын
I clicked on this thinking I was going to listen to some Amish metal... Surprised to find out it's a Kohle video.
@KohleAudioKult Жыл бұрын
Haha!
@BrandonBames Жыл бұрын
Probably the last comment I'll be able to make before 50k, congrats bro!!!
@yusa6046 Жыл бұрын
I like white better. Would like to see video about cabs also
@OperationEndGameАй бұрын
I prefer the rawness of the brunetti.
@dominikpohli2381 Жыл бұрын
mlc makes very good guitar cabinets
@bigquen1 Жыл бұрын
I wish they put these amps in plug-in format.
@KohleAudioKult Жыл бұрын
I don’t know anything but I’m sure that’s gonna happen sooner or later.
@bigquen1 Жыл бұрын
@@KohleAudioKult I hope so I love the sound of them, as well as the brunetti xl.
@MetalZoned Жыл бұрын
They sound killer
@ronchabot3449 Жыл бұрын
Wish I could afford any one of those amps 👍
@DrMurdercock Жыл бұрын
DUDE, is that an old school Fernandes from like late 90s early 2000s? I remember seeing them in every magazine around that time and hearing they were AMAZING guitars at the time, but no one sold them around me. BUt that looks like one from then.
@KohleAudioKult Жыл бұрын
This one is from around 2010
@danomnihility2453 Жыл бұрын
At that price point you can get a Diezel VHX and get infinite tone possibilities and more features. I don't know who has that kind of $$$? I'll stick with my Engl Savage mk1, and e570 preamp which imo comparable tonewise.
@mattvdh Жыл бұрын
Sounds pretty cool, I'm just not sure why you don't like EVH/5150's though, they are actually much more brutal than the ones you just demo'd. I like ENGLS as well but they have a super compressed sound to them and kind of takes away some of the wildness of it. You said in the interview with Kyle Bull that you would try out the EVH, I think it's time to break that bitch out.
@NarcissismUnveiled Жыл бұрын
I used to work for brunety
@KohleAudioKult Жыл бұрын
Why did you quit? 😱
@fleekwoodmac3705 Жыл бұрын
Please find and test a Hughes and Kettner Warp X head. Zero good reviews out there. Im curious about it.
@KohleAudioKult Жыл бұрын
Isn’t that this terrible new metal head from 20 years ago?
@dmitriblake61 Жыл бұрын
@@KohleAudioKult There were two versions: the "Warp X" (tube) and the "Warp 7" (solid state).
@chazanthony6319 Жыл бұрын
Death metal mixing contest results today?
@KohleAudioKult Жыл бұрын
Next week!
@MoreMeRecording Жыл бұрын
I applaud the unique designs of both amps. Def not my cup-o-joe but I can see loads of cats loving this. White is not METAL! TF?! haha. But the way the notes stay clean and articulate is impressive. This whole "modern metal" thing I always hear from creators over the last couple of years especially is meh... and while ya, I kinda get it, there are many amps worth noting these days that can do "modern metal" that aren't billed as "modern metal" especially with the 10 gazillion pedals out there you can augment with. Just a bunch of hyperbole hubris imnsho.
@metalandstuffz6129 Жыл бұрын
Kristian looks like the guy that knocks on your door, just when you're about to have dinner, to talk about the word of god... but then he starts to talk about amps. Would not slam the door shut!
@KohleAudioKult Жыл бұрын
Haha! Im the dark high gain version of those dudes! 🤩🤪
@metalfather8139 Жыл бұрын
Not for the faint of heart 3-4grand amps at least there is still god tear equipment for guys like Kolle
@treewisemenllc7281 Жыл бұрын
🤘🤘🤘🤘
@allboutthemojo Жыл бұрын
Almost didn't recognize you rocking the Amish beard ! 😆
@KohleAudioKult Жыл бұрын
I’m still not sure if Amish or Satanic is cooler 😜
@allboutthemojo Жыл бұрын
@@KohleAudioKult don't disappoint Satan. Your riffs will be revoked! 😆
@KohleAudioKult Жыл бұрын
Haha! Thanks for the reminder 🤪🤯
@in.der.welt.sein. Жыл бұрын
The Amish don't have mustaches because it's a symbol of militarism.
@Brandon-RZ Жыл бұрын
These amps look sick and sound sick too. Unfortunately I’ve heard bad stuff through the grapevine from several people about the builder backing up their work and being flakey. Amps arriving to the states non functioning and the builder is super flakey, and doesn’t respond promptly. Doesn’t take the amps arriving broken seriously. For being 2500-3500 dollar amps I’m staying away.
@jfcordia Жыл бұрын
I ordered and received the Subzero-V. My experience was the exact opposite from what you described.
@Nunya8787 Жыл бұрын
My experience was also the complete opposite. I grabbed a subzero 100s and it arrived in perfect condition. They ship their amps out in flight cases 🤙
@Brandon-RZ Жыл бұрын
Good to hear this.
@tobins6800 Жыл бұрын
I didn't like the subzero, too quacky for my taste. The clarity is freakin phenomenal though. I honestly kept getting the image of a pissed off AFLAC duck. The 93 was more to my taste. edit: maybe it was the speaker....I have to just hear it through others before I pass final judgment.
@newrosesartworx4662 Жыл бұрын
What's with the mosque-look? :)
@PASHKULI Жыл бұрын
Got no idea who would pay $3500+ just for amp head, 'cause you would need $600+ for matching cabinet, so $4100+ to make harsh sounds. Consider the free AI (neural) amp sim GuitarML with quite great captured profiles by people across the globe. I understand that after all this video is an add.
@KohleAudioKult Жыл бұрын
Easy to answer! Because a lot of people love real tube amps! 🥳
@pablom8854 Жыл бұрын
When you create your guitar tone you make it with love and it's unique, no one can replicate it. When you load your GuitarML plug half of the job was done by someone else(your harsh sound) and you are probably going to use an IR so that's 100% done by someone else.
@PASHKULI Жыл бұрын
@@pablom8854 All amp sims, IRs and captures are done by someone else. I just play and skip or tweak (if available, most of the plugins have that option).
@PASHKULI Жыл бұрын
@@josh-bodnar There is never a decent comparison. Maybe AxeFX III is good, I have no idea.
@DIYIstKrieg Жыл бұрын
You just went from "Kristian" Kohle to "Muslim" Kohle with that beard and the beenie 🤣🤣🤣
@KohleAudioKult Жыл бұрын
After Satan I wanted to try something else 🤣. Just kidding. I love all those Muslim + Amish comments though!
@tobiasschulke2118 Жыл бұрын
For 3500 € there other nice amps for half the price. Yes spezial sounding, but not in the way i prefer for this price.
@dougiemonday Жыл бұрын
Keep the sub zero. More Unique
@novemberzed9163 Жыл бұрын
Dont order ANYTHING from MLC. A friend of mine from Sweden ordered an item, a year ago, it never got shipped, they kept saying it was getting shipped soon, which never happened, and now he cant get a refund. Order items through a distributor. At least there you can get things in order most of the time when something goes bad.
@DrMurdercock Жыл бұрын
Dude......I just found out the founder of Fernandes was found slain in 2010
@KohleAudioKult Жыл бұрын
Oh really? I just know there is no Fernandes anymore 🤧
@DrMurdercock Жыл бұрын
@@KohleAudioKult There is Fernandes Japan (pretty sure) But I don't know how the 'quality' is now. The guy was found dad in CA at the shop. Sad shit..... They had a massive marketing boom and got some big names to play their guits in early 2000s, im assuming his untimely death was a huge hit to the US side of buisness.
@thisiscrap34 Жыл бұрын
bunch of toys for people with limitless money!
@tradito Жыл бұрын
amish metal hipster?
@starscream007 Жыл бұрын
Just by Randall or Krank instead of this overpriced crap
@Pasta221 Жыл бұрын
not too be like that but I honestly don't understand how one can afford all this amazing gear.. what am I doing wrong? I can barely afford to even put new strings on my guitar regularly, or even fix my only guitar as I have a big crack in the neck/head region 👀 I so want to afford this kinda stuff because the only thing I can not get away from in life is music. I can't do anything else in life. I might not be very good at it (yet) but its music or die in a ditch or something! 😆 So if I could magically make money appear out of the blue so I can not be worried about the whole survive and have food to eat and hopefully somewhere to live that isn't in your parents home, would be great lol. I just suck at normal work as I just end up being home messing around in my DAW instead or because I get burnt out from forcing myself doing shit I can't do. I guess living with severe ADHD is the reason for that, so guess ill just end up in that ditch with my broken guitar and die as a music fantast 🪦
@kennethjolley Жыл бұрын
Most folks cant afford these amps. Most people with either sell their stuff or get a payment plan. I also know alot of folks in groups like facebook with insaine collections do this as a hobby while making 70-100k a year in I.T or management. If these amps are to pricy id go digital or record on a pc with ir’s untill you find an amp you really love.
@KohleAudioKult Жыл бұрын
It has never been cheaper to get a world class guitar tone than these days with all the software, the IRs and the modelers. That means you don’t have to spend thousands on a real tube amp. It’s fun if you can though! As a producer I make money with my gear. That’s why I can afford all these amps. And I get booked by a lot of guitarists for that reason!
@stephanstertz9823 Жыл бұрын
I want to change the sound of this "ENTIRE" Genre. More specifically, the guitars. The drums need more rhythm....Yes, i'm talking about re inventing the wheel or just painting it a brand new color !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
@stephanstertz9823 Жыл бұрын
KRISTIAN.............iF YOUR IN A PRISON RIOT AND YOUR WATCHING A PRISON GAURD BEING DISEMBOUILED BY TWO PRISONERS CONVICTED OF RAPING A 10 YEAR OLD GIRL. HOW WOULD THE GUITAR SOUND DESCRIBE the emotion watching this HORROR take place in your presence???
@scription7277Ай бұрын
what
@stephanstertz9823 Жыл бұрын
Sure your curious, but are you interested in getting involved monetarily and whole heartedly.....For example, actually dedicating your life to the pursuit of music. For example, a doctor would dedicate his entire life to finding a cure for cancer??? Because my band "KILLSTARSIXX" comes first and so does putting food on the table...But i'm lucky in the fact that i don't have any responsibilities other than making music and dedicating my life to the betterment of a NEW genre of METAL...I can't take this endeavor on alone...I need a person with the technical knowledge like yourself....I would bring, out of the box thinking etc, etc,etc....Let me know if your ready for a side project like this?????
@stephanstertz9823 Жыл бұрын
It "ALL" sounds the same !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Someone needs to invent another METAL instrument....