Are YouTubers OK? Reacting to Dan Howell's Video - SimplyPodLogical

On this episode of SimplyPodLogical, Cristine and Ben discuss Dan Howell’s recent video ‘Why I Quit KZbin’, and Cristine shares her thoughts on the mental health implications of being an online figure.
0:00 - Hey what’s up holo everyone
0:55 - Do you remember Dan & Phil?
7:23 - Monetizing your hobbies
17:46 - Discouraged by data: Creator Studio and KZbin analytics
22:54 - What causes KZbin “burnout”?
29:02 - Why Cristine thinks about critical comments
46:55 - Why Dan Howell stopped making KZbin videos
58:21 - Comments about Cristine not making main channel videos
@danielhowell's video: • Why I Quit KZbin
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[@marinaross737]

“if you ask a 25 year old woman on the street” that’s exactly the average age of Dan’s original fanbase

[@YouTubeSupportSucks]

I'm 27, been watching since 2010, can confirm

[@DoKuShOsTaR]

23, watching since 2012… Yep, entirely right xD

[@paperyakuk]

I’m on the older side (given I’m the same age as Dan) but I completely agree. Also they had a BBC Radio 1 show so I’d say he was not far off a household name in the UK in that age bracket. I wonder if Cristine has a similar age fanbase, there’s probably a big crossover!

[@PawsitiveKitty]

24, been watching since 2012. Yes lol

[@RoKer13]

I was literally gonna say that, he should’ve said like 35 or 40. I was never a fan but I remember hearing about them constantly lol

[@vianneylopez881]

I understand the point that Ben was trying to make about how Dan being involved in collaborations with KZbin are mutually beneficial and should not be seen as a burden. But I do think it is a lot more nuanced: those collaborations were offered because he is gay, he was being used as their unproblematic gay token. He was still coming to terms with his sexuality while being used in campaigns for pride. I think that’s the main issue for why he felt kind of used, they didn’t answer him unless they needed more creators for their campaign of inclusivity.

[@HalicanDrops]

This exactly!!

[@stifton1]

I don't think so, he was huge way before he came out

[@Sandra_F]

I came here to post this if it hadn't already been said; glad to see it at the top of the comments section :)

[@mygoldenwitch]

@@stifton1 He was huge way before he came out, but it's after he came out that he got specific requests to be an inclusivity token. If you watch his video you'll see several examples of this, and honestly if I were Dan I would not have reacted as gracefully to that as he did; being a token anything is quite insulting, let alone if it's something you're still actively struggling with.

[@rachjade8785]

Dan and Phil were everywhere. They had a radio show on BBC radio 1 here in the UK in 2013-2014. I think they were the first KZbinrs or at least British KZbinrs I saw in the mainstream.

[@Bentendo]

This might be my North American bias but I think it's still fair to say their celebrity was mostly limited to people who are invested in online communities.

[@thischickDEJ]

to be fair, im in the us and im 24 and never watched dan and phil, only heard their names but don’t know about their stories… our first yts gone mainstream seems like it was mostly lilly sighn , kian and jc and liza koshy.. guess it depends on what content you actually find interesting/watch.

[@roselightz_3027]

@@thischickDEJ it very much depends. I'm 22, from Germany and recognize only two names off your list, but have never watched a video from any of them. But then again, I also, while much more aware of them, don't know all too much about Dan and Phil and that is with spending multiple hours on YT almost daily for the past 8-10(?) years(and 80-90% of the content I watch is in English)

[@zed5784]

Yeah. I'm from Canada and I know of Dan and Phil from long ago. And I don't even watch youtube that much or follow any youtube personalities. I think if you've made it to BBC radio, you're more than just a youtube celeb...

[@kathrynjones4897]

I feel like Ben is missing the difference in power dynamics between their relationship with KZbin and Dan's. For Dan it sounded like they had something he wanted (an ability to produce shows he cared about) and you have to play nice because you want to be given the thing you really want. KZbin doesn't have anything the Simplys want, so there's no pressure or ability for them to take something away if you're not the best employee ever. When I was trying for a promotion at work I had to make sure everything I did was buttoned up and do everything asked of me so there was no reason to not give me the promotion (still didn't get it so I get Dan's feeling of ticking all the boxes and still being let down)

[@julianachaparro5840]

YES ! this

[@J0IJ0IJ0I]

Exactly.

[@melanie2269]

Also Dan didn’t have another job to fall back on and was much much younger when he started KZbin.. totally different relationship with KZbin than Ben and Cristine

[@alenayushkevich8159]

Respectfully, aside from you not grasping a lot at the fact that Dan was used as a walking gay boy for compaigns, i think the most important thing is when Ben says that it's good for youtubers to be invited to events if they want to be more famous and stuff, I think a very important thing is to understand that by that time it was more beneficial for youtube to have Dan on their side than vice versa. Dan didn't have to get "more famous", he achieved everything he could on youtube and it was indeed youtube trying to use him, cause Dan brings lots of legitimacy to what youtube does if he participates in it.

[@cupcakewithouttheicing]

THIS. I remember being surprised when those campaigns happened, especially since Dan hadn't put anything out recently, and I get the sense that he would have declined opportunities like that had he not been trying to please KZbin to get his show made

[@jaqsre]

yeah, their take on his video confused me and i was afraid it was only because i’m a big fan of daniels.

[@rainecolubio]

I agree with Dan not needing to be more famous. The phandom is so loyal

[@sarafilgueira8072]

Amen to this

[@iyawakarehen]

for real, dan was one of the very first youtubers to become famous, way before youtuber became anything close to something resembling a career option and as long as he didn't do something worthy of getting him blocked or shadowbanned, he never needed youtube's help for fame, if anything, as you said, youtube has been needing dan way more

[@samoyeds243]

On Ben's take on Dan being upset with YT, I don't really think his angle was being upset just because the show didn't happen. It was being actively told "yes we're doing this" so he put a ton of hard work into it, and while they ghosted him on these multiple projects, he was repeatedly asked to do other promo events for YT and said yes to maintain a healthy relationship with them. He felt used, and he felt disappointed that he got a clear greenlight for several projects including one where they straight up double booked him and then told him AFTER the prep process. I think Dan had every right to be hurt by that, not just because the show didn't happen (I fully believe he's going to pursue it elsewhere anyway) but because he was strung along, lied to and used because it's a soulless corporation and no one takes accountability. The individual workers might care about the creators but when the system screws over those creators no one is going to take that responsibility, because they're just one cog in the machine. That's a frustration I can completely understand. Plus on a human level I feel really bad for anyone who thinks their dream is gonna come true because it's greenlit and worked on for months. Dan wasn't even using that as a point in his video but it's implied by how he felt. I think it's warranted, I'd be hurt too.

[@xxliew]

i did watch the original video and for me what i took away was: the most emotionally devastating thing wasn't necessarily that he didn't get to do the show, it was the unprofessionalism and the ghosting. It feels like this video kind of glossed over the the "poor communication" as not a big deal but, but as someone who has been on both ends of ghosting and being ghosted in both work and personal situations, the way he wasn't getting a clear answer and the way they were going back and forth on it for so long is actually the most unacceptable part of this scenario. poor communication already feels bad on a normal project that you're doing just because you're getting paid to do so, but this is a project that he clearly was very personally invested in. ben was like questioning whether or not there was a contract signed and how it was unclear what was going on there, but the fact that you're asking that question i think is precisely because ultimately there was no clarity for dan himself about the status of his project, despite repeated attempts on his end to gain clarity. i remember at least once dan mentioning an agreement and him following the terms of that agreement but then youtube completely ignoring it. i do appreciate how dan understood that this was out of incompetence and not malice, and i just think it's unfortunate how youtube's incompetence can have these kinds of negative impacts on their employees. as someone who is also working at a company whose higher ups are currently being incredibly unclear with their overall business directions for our various projects, causing a lot of issues for those of us who actually have to execute, i am seeing firsthand what happens when higher ups are going back and forth on their business decisions and not communicating properly with the team and changing their minds willy nilly. it's already a frustrating situation for my coworkers who aren't even emotionally attached to our projects, like we just want to do our jobs well, so i can't even imagine what it would be like for a creative type who's working on basically their dream project, drawn out over so much more longer. i think there's really no need to defend or diminish the incompetence and unprofessionalism in the way youtube handled dan's case. like yes, business directions change, i think it's clear from the video that dan understands that, but that does not excuse the fact that the end result of their poorly handled communications was that dan and his team was strung along for ages and invested a lot of time/money/effort when better communication could've saved a lot of wasted energy on all sides. i honestly expect this kind of messy communication from smaller, more indie companies, which i have personal experience with, but i didn't realize it happens to this extent at big powerful corporations like youtube too lmao. i definitely did not get the sense that dan feels youtube owed him the show, he was just trying his best to work with them to make it happen, which i think is reasonable for a creative person who is very passionate about their project, and i think his video's focus was more on how the failed bureaucracy and miscommunication made the process very emotionally painful for him. i deeply appreciate how cristine makes an effort to understand different perspectives and be empathetic and put herself in other people's shoes, and i certainly hope to see more of that in these discussions.

[@christinemarsh4827]

Extremely well said 😀

[@emiriidesu]

I haven’t watched the original video but something I’ve noticed from working on the internal end of a large corporation is that I think it can actually be *harder* to communicate well the bigger things get. It’s a combination of more people asking for things from you, more stakeholders internally that you need to get approval/inputs/responses etc. from before you can actually get back to someone… not to mention the whims of clients. I find it incredibly frustrating that a lot of my “getting back to people” at work is basically that there is no update yet and I’m waiting to hear back from X, Y and then Z. Corporate bureaucracy is hell. So yeah, from your comment above, I’d say I’m disappointed but not at all surprised that this sort of thing happened….

[@katiepatrick6506]

+

[@MustaineIsGod]

I think another thing they missed that Dan said was all the other big offers to produce his project he received. Dan turned down these offers because he wanted to make his show on youtube. He has always been loyal to youtube. So it would hurt a hell of a lot to have them string him along for 2 years, and have you waste your time and money and put your professional career and reputation on the wayside for so long for empty promises. I feel for him so bad.

[@rebeccaroberts8120]

Yeah, I felt Ben was really quite dismissive of the emotional side - just because you wouldn't view it that way, doesn't mean others won't!

[@afabfelix]

I feel like one point you might be missing, is that for most of his time on KZbin, Dan did not in fact have the luxury of just taking time off, because he really didn't have enough money. I think a lot of your comments are very valid for a huge amount of youtubers, but not necessarily Dan's example. He really also isn't a 2016 youtuber and I feel like that makes a huge difference as well. In 2016 it was already pretty established that KZbin could be a full-time job. At least to people inside of the KZbin bubble. When Dan started, there was no way to monetise any of your content. KZbin has come a long way and I'm convinced that anyone who hasn't experienced being a content creator in 2012 and before that, can't really understand the trauma that feeling helpless in the face of KZbin can cause

[@ravneetgrewal7139]

Yes! He wasn't making $100k + per year in addition to KZbin earnings (Cristine and Ben combined)

[@catk4942]

Exactly. Simply has always had the luxury of having another stream of income (she still has a spot saved at Statcan as we speak) so if she steps away, it’s not biggie. For most of his career, Dan was reliant on making KZbin money to pay rent, eat, etc. he didn’t have a fallback

[@timepatches]

I think an important part of Dan's specific case of creator burnout that you guys didn't cover is that his fanbase was not only huge, and everywhere, they were extremely invasive about his personal life and his sexual orientation when he was in fact a closeted gay man. Not to downplay what you did cover at all (and Dan glosses over it in his own video for obvious reasons), but I don't think you can refer to that kind of impact as the same kind of thing other youtubers face with their audiences - both are very damaging but to have them at the same time is a different kind of erosion of your sense of self and safety in the world imo (though similar things have happened with other youtubers especially in that same time period, but I would argue not on the same scale)

[@jasmingovers4403]

Yeah, that part always bothered me about their fanbase.. I was just an average fan and didn't get their really invasive fanbase.

[@alexisc3658]

I think the fact that the fanbase was “right” is what made it worse for him. It wasn’t baseless rumors floating around, it was a very real secret that he wasn’t ready to share that people were prying into. There were very real personal stakes at risk.

[@lucybw]

I assume that this is also the reason Dan and Phil's manager at vidcon asked Ben not to record them. It didn't strike me as entitled or whatever, I would assume it's because they didn't want to take the risk of anything too personal being recorded in a safe space.

[@caitlin329]

@@lucybw Yeah, they've always worked incredibly hard at keeping their private life private, and a lot of the 'phan proof' or whatever people latched onto came from other creators' content

[@banannie2002]

@@caitlin329 Yep. My D&P fan days were spent watching countless random YTer vlogs where the top comment was “Dan and Phil at 5:58!” or something like that. The ruse was harder to maintain when they thought they were safe, and some of these moments were caught on random vlogs…

[@fancypapercutz]

Earlier in the video Cristine talked about people with regular jobs wanting a promotion and such so they stay and do overtime or take on more to show their worth. That’s what Dan was doing I feel, he was doing extra stuff for KZbin, not just being on promotional material, speaking at events and such because he was promised something (the show) and wanted to make sure they could see he was doing his best for KZbin to be on their good side. Then they just dropped him and his show. I don’t think that’s entitled at all, imagine if one of you was promised a promotion, you put in a bunch of extra work to look good and show your ready for the promotion and then your work just says “nah sorry it’s cancelled thanks though” you would be upset as well.

[@catk4942]

Yea I didn’t like their take on this- Dan was working (unpaid, likely) for almost 2 years, was clearly being led on, was doing a lot to try to stay in their good graces, and then suddenly got ghosted. If the job metaphor was being used, I would quit that job SO FAST and I would be pissd

[@caitlynlandry822]

Very well said.

[@cecilietobias-renstrm6563]

If I recall correctly, he was also given an opportunity to do the show with a production firm, but he convinced his team to say no to this opportunity because he believed in KZbin - I think this would hurt anyone. I get where Chris and Ben are coming from, though

[@kc_lee_ann]

@@catk4942 it’s the ghosting part that Ben and Christine fail to touch on - the change of direction stuff I get - but KZbin’s communication with him was poor

[@jethro4453]

@@kc_lee_ann Not to mention that in Cristine's example of upper management going a different direction, yeah her time spent working on the first project was wasted, but she was still getting paid.

[@Kay-vf8wu]

I think there's a difference in the stats approach depending on if you are a Personality youtuber or an Activity youtuber. Cristine started as an Activity youtuber whereas Dan has always been a Personality youtuber. If you feel people don't like your personality vs your activity you're going to adjust to that differently. He was also younger when he rose to prominence whilst very much in denial about his sexuality mixed with depression. with a very active and online fandom that can't be good for anyone. Edit - one thing I want to add here is that from Dan's pov, I imagine he felt like he was being exploited for his sexuality because youtube knew that they could capitalise on his coming out + his very active fandom. I think that has a fundamental difference than a quid pro quo relationship.

[@shrutimishra242]

agreed!!

[@polianarchy]

Absolutely. I think it happens when personality KZbinrs don't set up healthy boundaries between their selves and their brands. Capitalism makes fools of us all

[@tigerlily515]

This, 100%

[@nisanur1124]

EXACTLY!!

[@J0IJ0IJ0I]

Exactly.

[@id3389]

I think some of this commentary really glosses over Dan's experience and requires context. 1. He is a creator that grew up with the platform. He did not have the chance to experience a quiet, normal adult life outside of his VERY engaged and sometimes invasive fanbase, which must feel incredibly daunting. So it's understandable that his mental health is heavily influenced by stuff online. He also experienced financial hardships on top of this (at the start of his YT career), so that just added to the "KZbin insecurity" thematic. 2. Downplaying his content as "sitting in front of the camera in his bedroom" really takes away from the effort he put into writing and performing his scripts. He is a comedian, so you can only imagine how exhausting it must be to produce a different 5-10 minute comedy number by yourself every single week, every year. A normal comedian prepares 1-2 hours for a special that they make with a whole team. 3. In the traditional workforce, if my company changes its vision and my project gets scrapped, I still get paid at the end of the day. This is not at all what happens in entertainment. Dan put in a lot of effort, work and lots of his own money to make this show, but his "employer" decided to scrap his project, so him and all of the people on the team are suddenly not getting paid this quarter. So this is not comparable. It is just KZbin perpetuating the same exploitative techniques we find in places like Hollywood.

[@leenojazzar4080]

well said I completely agree. while I respect their views I disagree with them on this and feel they missed the point of Dan’s video.

[@jaqsre]

@@leenojazzar4080 agreed! i love hearing their opinions on stuff, but this wasn’t as enjoyable unfortunately.

[@simbelsim]

Excellent points. I'd never even heard of Dan before seeing his video, and I'm not a KZbinr, but I work in an industry where internet algorithms play a huge role in the success and stability of the job (online news for an ad-revenue based outlet). A lot of what Dan said about the sheer pressure and unknowability of the algorithm really resonated; to say that one doesn't have to be emotionally affected by website traffic/views/clicks/likes is to totally disregard that most people totally get emotionally involved with those kinds of stats when they directly affect their livelihood/financial security/job/personal success. We can't detach ourselves from that so easily, and I think Ben in particular was extremely dismissive of that experience.

[@Victuuri]

I appreciate that both Ben and simply talked about burnout not being about the hours but about the public eye. I am an environmental engineer that have to do field work and office work so I normally work 12 hours per day and have reports due everyday. But I do not have to deal with comments about my personal life and personal relationships, I don’t know if I will be able to handle that.

[@thenopedetective]

It's really all those things though. Work demands which can lead to burnout if improperly managed include social requirements, physical, stressors (ex. deadlines), cognitive, emotional, etc.. KZbin has a higher level of social and emotional stressors compared to other areas, but some could burnout just because they can't manage time commitment and self care. Burnout is possible in every field, but of course it's more common in those which 1. are associated more with values, 2. have high demands, 2. have poor psychological safety work environments (which KZbin would likely fall under.

[@erikperhs_]

Same here. I make clothes (everything, from drawing to sewing and then editing the photos), and nowadays there's a huge pressure to post everything you make to Instagram, specially if it's art related. I can spend 12h cutting and sewing and I'm fine, but if I try posting everyday it gets me really stressed, even if it takes me like 10 minutes to make a couple of stories. I don't know why that happens, but I think my "social battery" is just too low haha

[@AhhhSukeSuke]

Exactly lol. KZbin is worse/equal to being a celebrity, ppl psychoanalyse every single thing you do.... you can easily get sucked in 1000000% into your KZbin career, and can't separate yourself from your KZbin work.... You always feel the pressure of turning your fun hobby into work

[@animeluver1200]

I think he felt used by KZbin for a good reason. When you’re a minority (rather it be because of your sexual orientation, race, etc.) companies will often use you as a prop so they can seem “inclusive and diverse.” And I do think KZbin used him in that capacity as a LGBTQ+ influencer. They were very responsive and communicative with him when they wanted to use him for PR, but went silent for months when he reached out to them about his projects. It’s a phenomenon and feeling you can really only understand if you’re also a minority

[@timepatches]

As much as it's possible that it's due to different departments handling the two things, it's hard not to see it like that 💀

[@shrutimishra242]

yes!!!

[@ellie.ivanova]

I agree with almost everything you said, the only part I don't completlely agree with is the last one - I and most of my friends are not part of any minorities and while I don't think I can completely put myself in his shoes, I (and friends I talked to) can kind of understand how that would feel and empathise.

[@moondom]

I agree, I think the discussion in this podcast didn't acknowledge the crux of what Dan was talking about with his stories of youtube using him as a token gay creator. That's where this hurt and betrayal really ratcheted up, not just the fact that his show wasn't produced. They trotted him out when they needed him to boost their diversity image and then didn't follow through when it came to supporting queer content, and that's something I think he was absolutely right to call out.

[@mackrobinson8853]

I agree but the last part can happen and does happen to everyone and anyone I’m sure everyone in the working environment has experienced this in some capacity at least once.

[@sluggmom]

I agree with Cristine that she and Ben can look at stats with less emotional attachment. I've seen several other ytbers say knowing how well a vid did out of the last ten feels like a judgement. The Simplies are used to seeing those kinds of reports as cut and dry. They are THE most grounded/'adult' content creators I've encountered and I've been knocking around yt for like 15 years.

[@bb-sophia]

Agree on this. I grew up doing musical theater in New York in the off-broadway scene so I got very used to being denied, critiqued, judged, etc. that it honestly doesn’t bother me in the arts to be critiqued. Changed paths and have recently graduated college with a physics degree and same thing… I got used to working with data and being questioned in the professional sphere on my performance, data, and my research. Growing up or working with a job that either relies on critique or data makes you wayyy more mature and able to work with criticism or data analytics.

[@polianarchy]

Agreed, but I don't think it's solely from their professional experience with data sets. I think their healthy detachment stems from their differentiation of their selves from their brands. This is Cristine & Ben speaking here on the podcast, but their channels are Simplynailogical & Bentendo. They're Simply Not Logical, Beyyyn, Holo Taco, etc on KZbin. Sure, these avatars are all facets of themselves, but ultimately, psychologically, the data & whatever critical analysis it describes is about their channels

[@another421]

The Simplies

[@Bootysmoothie]

I do realize Ben is super self aware and being a humble butt, which I appreciate a lot because I feel the same way about myself I'm just a person with thoughts that don't have to influence anyones decisions but if my experience can help them I'll try to be an example for that moment but it feels like a small effort and it should remain that way because it really is just a suggestion and nothing more.

[@spriddlez]

The KZbinrs I've heard speak about it explain it like "I poor my heart and soul into something I make, post it then go back in to fix a broken link and it's right there in your face telling you 'this video sucked. Remember this other video you didn't personally like as much? It did way better. do more of that's". I'm honestly impressed anyone is as secure in themselves that being told every time you log in that your performance has been disappointing or exceptional doesn't affect your self perception . I can see how working with stats could do that though.

[@heavenbitz]

I think there is a difference between switching a project at work, where you get paid for your hours, then a concept that took years to flesh out with no pay.

[@catk4942]

This was the biggest thing that stuck out to me. So many comparisons to traditional jobs but the dynamic is so different that those comparisons made no sense to me.

[@heavenbitz]

@@catk4942 that's one thing that made me take a step back this whole episode. They should know from experience that this is not a traditional job and you cannot apply traditional standards to it.

[@catk4942]

@@heavenbitz same, it’s actually one of the only episodes I didn’t finish all the way because I kept getting frustrated.

[@heavenbitz]

@@catk4942 I also think that stats talk was bad as well. Most don't want to see the stats because it's delivered in a bad way and does not offer proper feedback to what went wrong. The out of 10 scale makes them feel inadequate and makes every post very stressful to put out. Stats are great but the first thing you are taught about making/reading them is that they need to be concise and clear. Nothing about youtube analytics are concise or clear and are very much up to interpretation.

[@WadeShoe]

@@heavenbitz They were literally comparing them for the point that it's not the same situation. Been def had a more critical take on the Dan video, and I understand he (and most of us) don't know all the context, but they were really talking about their own experience most of the video. And there was a lot of interesting things they had to say about their own experiences. And their point with the stats thing is that you don't have to look at them if you don't want. It's odd to say you don't want something to exist because you don't like it, when it doesn't actively hurt you, and others find it helpful. It's an optional tool.

[@zo4196]

49:22 I think I interpreted Dan talking about how he participated in those events for YT as a way for him to keep the peace between him and the company. I know a lot of people who will participate in work events in order to show their commitment to their bosses, and in turn that helps you gain security as being seen as an employee that shows up. Given what happened when YT decided to randomly change their copystrike rules/demonetisation rules, I can see why he wanted to play it such that the company wouldn't leave him out to dry should he have made a mistake by accident, since he had expressed his backing to the company by participating in events when he was asked to.

[@celatae]

Yeah, that's how I felt too. Like 'non mandatory overtime.' It isn't required, but you know the people who don't show up are the ones who have the least chance of promotion.

[@zo4196]

@@celatae Exactly

[@p.j7372]

What’s with this idea of Dan just wanting to be “famous”? I feel like Ben specifically was just labelling him as a spoilt, selfish child who didn’t get what he wanted. But that wasn’t the case at all. Idk think it could of been handled with a bit more empathy.

[@lestranged]

and by that point he already was famous so YT using him as a token poster boy was not really benefitting him

[@BrittanyDarling18]

I normally don’t comment, but I think Dan’s point was more that he was led on and strung along by KZbin (whether intentional or not) into believing this project was happening, which in turn led him to turn down other great opportunities & neglect his channel, only to be dropped last minute. It’s not that he felt entitled to it, but that he more than held up his end of the deal (to the point of being used) and YT in the end just didn’t give a shit. They dropped him without a 2nd thought about what he lost or gave up to work with them. Christine is right that YT doesn’t owe anyone anything, but that also doesn’t give them the right to take advantage of it creators by essentially lying to them or ignoring them. I understand there was probably a lot more going on on YT end that no one will entirely know about, but I still think Dan is entirely justified in feeling the way he does about it. He gave up 2 years of his career to work with them and I think anyone would be equally upset if in his situation.

[@zo4196]

As for the idea of Dan getting exposure, at that point I don't think Dan really needed it. He was one of the biggest of KZbinrs and he had a solid fanbase. I would argue YT needed to draw his fanbase in more. I think people who are also a fan of Dan's content have commented insightful assessments of how even as a viewer, the difference of being a KZbinr was exponential pre-2016, when there were fewer creators, and more well known names, is very obvious when it comes to Dan's case.

[@Aa-st6ml]

agreed, dan was the second youtuber I ever watched (after nigahiga) and I just remember how overwhelmingly massive the fanbase was

[@caitlinquinn79]

I think you've missed some of the context around Dan's video- He's a gay man and they used him in projects BECAUSE of that and got him to do projects while promising to back his show. Tokenising him for his sexuality and using that is just shitty behaviour, to me it's different to a platform asking their employee to do a project.

[@cobaltblu4196]

I also believe the thing with dan was he had 3 different projects, what you've not brought up here was the months long silence he was getting, and then having to fight for the project, getting the greenlight, and then getting ignored again. it wasn't solely the "shift in direction" it was the multiple moments of being completely "forgotten" during the process. they did his marathon idea with another youtuber and he was left with no response from youtube for a ridiculous amount of time for his more serious series.

[@lucybw]

not to mention that, if we're using Cristine's example, a typical worker who is asked to shift focus from one project to another is still being paid and receiving benefits no matter what they're asked to work on, whereas a creator who puts months or years into a project that is suddenly no longer happening has basically just wasted all of that unpaid and unappreciated time and will not be compensated for it (unless a contract exists that states otherwise)

[@shrutimishra242]

exactly!! it's just terrible management. i feel like cristine and ben don't want to say anything negative about KZbin and that's fine but I didn't like how it seemed like they were discrediting his experience as if he felt entitled to thins

[@cobaltblu4196]

​@@shrutimishra242 I don't like that Ben said "you're not entitled to a show about yourself" Sorry to say this Cristine, but Ben really Disappointed me when he said that, and with how much this misrepresented Dan's video... kind of feels like blaming the person who got screwed over instead of the buisness that kept him waiting for months while still asking him to attend events.

[@Caofeles]

But that's the thing. Dan said that he had agreed to finance a large part of that project. KZbin didn't owe him a show- but it sounded like they did use him as a poster child for a number of campaigns, with the understanding that he would do it because he wanted to show his allegiance to KZbin. And they absolutely used and abused that. Dan actively declined other projects to do his show WITH KZbin. Of course, such a big company always puts their own interest first and usually has no problem using up their resources, which in KZbin's case is their creators. But that doesn't mean we should accept that as a given or justified. I find this attitude of "welp, big company gonna big company, it's your fault for trusting them!" incredibly harmful. It shifts away the responsibility from the company to the person for "not knowing better" or "not doing something else" and that 100% needs to stop.

[@hotsexyangel]

Yesss exactly

[@BigBeatlesFan121]

I completely agree! Just bc things are a certain way, doesn’t mean it should stay that way, and it DEFINITELY doesn’t mean it’s okay to shift blame away from the ppl keeping it that way for no reason other than greed

[@myafigs6065]

I feel like the difference between the Simply brand and Dan is that KZbin was never putting food on the table. It was a side hobby that allowed for extra luxuries. I dont want that to be taken as an insult/shade. Cristine said she's aware of how privileged she is to have a job outside of YT. Dan put all of his eggs into the YT basket. It seems like it was a donkey and the carrot situation. I feel like you don't turn down Netflix without some assurances from the other person. Also being invited to random YT events is very different to those centered around your race/sexuality/gender and etc. Tokenizm is a thing many minorities have to smile through to get further opportunities. Other creators knew they were just getting money/exposure. Dan thought he was showing up at the company engagement picnic and laughing at his boss's joke to prove he was loyal to the brand. Imagine if a glitter supplier promises snowy holo for an Xmas launch, ghosts for weeks, pops in to use past collabs for an ad, assured you they were working on it and then at the deadline said "actually we can't deliver; the Holo Taco team would be scrambling. Look at some of the negative comments when Holo Taco had to cancel the top coat that was supposed to come out with the return on got cake.

[@mikhalajayne3543]

exactly, not only that but Cristine was like 24-26 when she started KZbin, Dan was a TEENAGER, he did really put everything into KZbin and gave them and US everything and I feel like they don't know enough about him to be commentating on his video

[@ladydilandau]

I love how Christine and Ben always try to relate to normal workers, but I do think the comparison of a project change from someone in Dan's position vs a normal worker is very different. As a salary/hourly worker if someone above you drops a project or changes direction you still got paid and have the security (hopefully if the company is good) of still having a job and continued paychecks despite there being a change of plans. Taking Dan's story as is (not knowing if there was a contract etc) it sounded like he spent a huge amount of resources and time, as well as the people he was working with, to end up with nothing to show for it and only going negative. If anything it would be more comparable to being a small business owner going on a limb with the hope of success.

[@ellie.ivanova]

I completely agree, also a point a lot of people are missing is that usually someone, who would be working on projects for a bigger company wouldn't usually need to promote them as well, while I am sure that Dan felt quite some guilt teezing his big projects to his audience and also saying that he's taking time working on bigger projects, when asked why he's not making videos and then having nothing to show for those promises 2 years later

[@kc_lee_ann]

I agree! At work my projects get scrapped quite often - it’s just in the nature of my work that higher priority items come in that trump passion projects - BUT I am compensated for everything I do even if it isn’t used so even though I feel a bit dejected it wasn’t a “waste of time” because I still got paid for work it’s not my problem they don’t use it

[@YouTubeSupportSucks]

Cristine*

[@ashleytimm2288]

There's a difference between working on a project unpaid and it getting cancelled vs. A salaried person who's company goes in another direction

[@Candlesticksify]

Cristine’s thoughts on individuals who aren’t used to data having an emotional response to it is spot on. I do analysis on customer survey feedback and managers who aren’t used to understanding some of the graphs in context can be incredibly intimidated by them. There are those that view graphs as an opportunity and those that view them as a direct attack on their own shortcomings and need to be trained to view them otherwise.

[@Ray-po8gn]

This is possibly the first time I’ve not liked content from Cristine, I felt Dan’s video was very much clear on everything that went on and the podcast glosses over so much info and don’t come from a place of understanding of Dan and his fan base or how he provided great clarity on what went down with KZbin. Dan deserved so much better from KZbin.

[@Octobris]

Your opinion is valid of course (and I totally agree with you on Dan expressing everything in a clear way) but you have to acknowledge the slight upset (which was my initial reaction too!) may come from the fact you're emotionally attached to Dan. I think it was okay for them to express their opinions on the matter because it lead to interesting conclusions, even if they don't certainly fit what we as a fanbase think/feel. Also, Cristine expressed a lot of things relating to her personally, but that was because she's not in a position to speak FOR Dan, as he is capable of doing that himself. Overall, we like them both so let's respect everyone's opinions and continue to support the creators in their different endeavours ;)

[@cupcakewithouttheicing]

19:13 the main complaint I've heard from other creators in regard to these metrics is that they're the FIRST thing you see when you enter the creator studio. Of course they're very useful to those who want them, but people don't want to log in to edit a caption and have the first thing they're met with be that their latest video is performing 9/10, and I feel like that's a valid criticism

[@makiya_hughes]

Right, like just rearrange the page so people can still find it very easily if they want to and if they're mentally read to, but if they want to do something these they don't HAVE to see that first

[@alyj6398]

That's how I always interpreted other creator's comments about that particular metric. Not them saying that having it at all is a bad thing, but that having it be front-and-center and in their face so they can't avoid it is unhealthy and unhelpful.

[@catk4942]

Yea, it’s easy to say “just ignore it” but they’re basically not ignorable if you’re the one managing your channel. The only way to dodge them is to have someone else in charge of KZbin as a platform for your business or personality or whatever.

[@genericplantlife]

It was interesting to hear opinions on Dan's video by people who are not familiar with Dan's content. I feel like I've interpreted some parts of Dan's explanation on the whole YTO situation differently. From what I understood, they encouraged him and told him it would happen and asked a bunch of stuff from him to make it happen. Then he did all the stuff on his end, then they essentially ghosted him. But yeah, from an outside perspective it would sound quite entitled too.

[@xxliew]

i think for people who actually watch and pay attention to the whole video, that's what you would take away too.

[@jasmingovers4403]

Yeah I feel the same

[@caitlin329]

Yep, I thought it was pretty clear that this was the case tbh. It must be something to do with being familiar with him and his content or something?

[@johndododoe1411]

As a notorious company with an army of lawyers, I expect YT to have a legal way to cancel the project without leaving him a way to sue back. Look at how they won against ZGB in the adpocalypse lawsuit, that was a truly twisted abuse of the law.

[@astute_potato]

I haven’t even watched his video and I still interpreted the situation this way lol. I felt like Cristine’s analogy about writing a paper probably wasn’t as similar as she thought.

[@videos-ds7ln]

i think both cristine and ben have been a little bit harsh on dan. i think a lot of their points were valid but they glossed over a lot of stuff, and it makes dan come off as a lot more entitled and self absorbed than i took his video to be. i do get they can’t unpack all of it in the podcast, but i’m unsure of why they’re talking about someone they seemingly don’t like much?either way, love the podcast, just feeling sorry for dan

[@Cake-um7je]

Especially because a lot of stuff they seem to say comes off more "entitled" is stuff he himself mentions and disclaims.

[@videos-ds7ln]

@@Cake-um7je yeah, and has other people have pointed out i think dan went though a lot of stuff regarding his sexuality and people being invasive, and i think that massively contributed to a lot of why he left the platform/had complaints

[@YouTubeSupportSucks]

I agree

[@alyj6398]

I seem to recall Dan stating in his video numerous times that he understood that KZbin was a business and that projects fall through or directions change or whatever. I think the point he was trying to make with that whole second half was more about the unclear communication between YT and him (waiting months for a response, getting vague responses, YT acting like things were good to go...but just change these things, etc) and his disappointment in the eventual dismissal given that he burned so many other bridges in his bid to put the project on YT instead of taking another avenue. To me, it read less like "YT did me wrong and I'm mad about it" and more like "The time I put into working on this project for YT at the expense of so many other ways of doing it (as well as promoting YT in general at multiple events) was wasted because of the eventual decision for YT to cancel the project without warning".

[@DaRat711]

Id love to see a pt 2 to this conversation where you acknowledge the comment section of this video, so many people raise so many good points and perspectives that might’ve been missed or overlooked, I also want to add that with the show he had connections and options to make it with other networks, and he chose KZbin specifically because of the relationship he had with them, and because of the significance to his life so he also felt embarrassed professionally by the whole situation after they never followed through. And more than just dan was waiting on this project and working on this,

[@kc_lee_ann]

And this wasn’t just a “Dan” project - yes it was centered around him but he had a full team helping him with this one and he pushed them towards KZbin when they had other options so of course he’s upset

[@Em63974]

So fascinating to hear an outside perspective! The thing about Dan and Phil is that they were EVERYWHERE in like 2015. They helped make KZbin legit. It feels like yt used Dan for rainbow cred and discarded him. It's so relatable to do a ton of work for a company only for it to screw you over. Their touring was record breaking for KZbin creators. They wrote a book, had successful merch and games, a radio show, etc. when this wasn't typical for internet creators. They were famous for their personalities and relationship, as opposed to a product like skits/tutorials. The fans, many teen girls (like me at the time), were kpop fan level devoted. The pressure and scrunity were hardcore. Ppl wrote fanfiction and speculated about their sexuality to an invasive degree. I remember the intense passion of being a devoted fan of theirs. When they came out it also meant so much to me and other queer fans. Truly a significant era with extreme highs and lows.

[@hotsexyangel]

The problem wasn’t that KZbin just suddenly changed directions on Dan, the problem was that they did in fact promise Dan his show was going to happen but whenever he asked about it they wouldn’t give him direct answers and brush him off. Then they just dropped the plan and ghosted him completely. Dan wasn’t upset that he suddenly couldn’t make a show about himself- I feel like you guys kinda paint him in a narcissistic light- Dan was upset he was inactive for two years, away from his loyal fans, thinking he had this huge success about to happen but then it was just ripped away from him. I think he also felt personally invested and passionate about the project which hurt him even more to have it discarded like it was nothing. I don’t see that Dan is “entitled,” he was wronged. As popular youtubers yourselves, you should understand that. You spent a lot of this podcast talking about yourselves from a youtuber’s perspective but then when you went back to talking about Dan it almost seems like you’re alluding to him being entitled…? I love you guys but a lot of what you said this episode rubs me the wrong way. It’s not Dan’s fault that KZbin is neglectful. KZbin was in the wrong. It doesn’t matter if there was a contract or whatever, he was wronged. They made a promise and they failed to complete it while also leaving Dan completely in the dark.

[@liswane]

Yeah, I feel like they didn’t really look that deeply into dan’s vid, and so this discussion felt a bit surface level. I read another comment where someone said the issue is that dan was trying to get something from youtube so he had to play nice and avoid confrontation or being seen as « difficult », whereas simply doesn’t so she does whatever she wants and in the way she wants to because she sees youtube as a platform to host her content, not as a platform that has something she wants. So the issue is how drastically different their perspectives are from dan’s. It was fun hearing cristine’s perspective, but I definitely didn’t agree with how they talked about dan’s situation.

[@kc_lee_ann]

And it wasn’t just Dan that was affected! He had a whole team working on this show with him

[@RationalizedFervor]

I agree 100%, this episode was biased and they didn’t dig deeper and listen to Dan’s video completely. They listened, but they didn’t actually put thought into it. They glossed over how dan really opened up, and shared fully what his life has been like because KZbin kept giving/saying empty promises to string along Dan... this podlogical episode is disappointing to me. I was hoping they would really see and hear Dan’s story he finally spoke up on.

[@arianapadilla9351]

I'm only 20 minutes in, so I can't comment with a fully formed opinion. But reading lots of the comments here, I would love to see you guys do a part 2 where you take a look at what the comments have to say. I'm a crossover viewer(lol just bought a meet and greet ticket for Dan's tour), and the comments have me worrying that some points in Dan's video were missed/glossed over/misinterpreted :( Will be back when the video is over

[@kc_lee_ann]

I would love a follow up to this video in particular because in my opinion they didn’t see the full picture of his video - and I think it is because without being a fan of him you may forget some of the background information about him

[@DieuwertjeSara]

I think even without being a fan you could see that. I barely watch dans videos, but his explanation was very well put and I think Ben and Christine looked a bit to much trough the lens of their experience

[@sarahwick6514]

Yes! I’ve been a fan of Dan’s for almost a decade, and a fan of Simply’s for several years so I was excited for this podcast. However, Ben and Cristine (honestly mostly Ben) seem to REALLY be mis-interpreting his video and are glossing over the facts that Dan didn’t have money, spent years getting no money then getting his project dropped, etc.

[@nanapeel3379]

I fully get the harshness of negative comments. I really enjoyed the vacation podcast. I enjoyed the semi-dichotomy between you two and how you all make relations and discussions work. But I appreciate the choice to remove the video when there was an attack from a verbal minority. But I have been here for seven years and I really enjoy your growth, your candidness, and you allowing us in your lives....for as long as that is allowed, I thank you both and your team.

[@bisma1352]

ah how long ago was the vacation podcast I haven't been as regular with the podcast as the early days so wondering if it's one of the first ones

[@J0IJ0IJ0I]

Imagine being the token gay person chosen to speak for a platform that will not give back to you. It's like let's say a big tech company asking me as a black person to speak at multiple conferences to represent the company for diversity, equity, and inclusion initiatives and they never give me proper funding or support to boost those very initiatives. I think this and the power-play element between KZbin and Dan is where you may have missed the mark. Not hate, but this is what I've observed. I love the podcast, but I think that is kind of tone-deaf in itself.

[@arianapadilla9351]

I don't understand how a 90 minute video talking about himself is self-indulgent? Coming from a KZbin channel that is personality-based, wouldn't the whole channel then be "self-indulgent"? Not trying to be rude at all, just don't quite understand that bit.

[@chimrose7839]

what's self-indulgent is his complete refusal to take accountability for anything ever. 90 minutes of "look how I was wronged by everyone, I am the biggest victim" to an audience he abandoned was pretty insufferable. then you add the cash-grab "mental health book" written by someone who's attended therapy for a couple years and has no credentials.

[@chimrose7839]

what's self-indulgent is his complete refusal to take accountability for anything ever. 90 minutes of "look how I was wronged by everyone, I am the biggest victim" to an audience he abandoned was pretty insufferable. then you add the cash-grab "mental health book" written by someone who's attended therapy for a couple years and has no credentials.

[@mjlynch2842]

@@chimrose7839 Dan does take accountability at multiple points. He talks about the role he played in this: turning down more "legitimate" offers for his show, being unable to set boundaries by saying yes to everything KZbin asked, and having an unhealthy relationship with the platform that led to his burnout. Providing context for his actions does not mean he is not taking accountability for them. As for the book, anyone talking about their experience with mental health is a good thing. What Dan lacks in credentials he makes up for in reach, because his audience is absolutely huge. The average person is more likely to pick up a book by a celebrity they recognize than one by a random therapist, and if that book can be used for good and start meaningful conversations then I see nothing wrong with it.

[@katie8326]

Having Ben explain who dan (and Phil) are is a hell of a trip cuz I'm over here going 'wait are there people in the KZbin sphere who don't know Dan and Phil?' and then realizing that yes, yes there are

[@grizeldamayhem]

I think you guys should get tickets for Dan’s world tour when he comes to Canada this fall. His politically engaged, emotionally sensitive comedy stuff might be more up the alley of this podcast than you realize.

[@laurenasuzano1977]

personally, i don’t consider Cristine and Dan to be from the same era on youtube. While Dan was still around when Cristine got big, it doesn’t make as much sense to equate their situations because they rose into popularity at not only different eras of youtube, but also vastly different genres of content. Dan being surrounded by all the “British vloggers” at the peak of their fame is the reason there was so much pressure to keep posting and never take breaks. He was constantly surrounded by creators that view the holidays as “the best time of year for cpm” etc. I just think so much of this conversation lacks some of the consideration for the fact that Dan was part of the group of people who kind of laid a lot of groundwork and benchmarked what made a “successful youtuber” and really just stumbled into the role. All the meanwhile not really fitting into his weekly post schedule peers. i don’t know just some food for thought.

[@caitlin329]

I think Dan, and to a lesser extent Phil, suffered from being grouped in with vloggers all the time. Dan's content especially has always been a different style, way more scripted, often more comedy focused. It's just a very different style.

[@mckennareeves2764]

On the point of him potentially feeling used by KZbin, there were multiple things that he was featured in the last two years that KZbin created that I quite literally only watched because Dan was in them. I would say that I am only a pretty average Daniel Howell fan, but I think that enough people are like me where we only watched certain events because a creator we enjoy is in it. While I do see the point that he could get exposure from those events so it’s not necessarily being used, someone with as much name recognition as Dan probably is giving more than he gets in those events (that is just an educated guess from my perspective though). And also in a more general sense there is sometimes pressure from overheads on companies to do certain extra things in order to get what you want, so I could absolutely see there being that kind of situation there. However once again that point is obviously just speculation and from only knowing Dan’s perspective!

[@banannie2002]

It almost felt like KZbin knew that we were so desperate for anything from Dan that we would watch whatever shitty promo they decided to put him in 😂

[@Aa-st6ml]

1000% agree, I was what dan called in his video a "lurker" and didn't interact much with the fanbase, but watched almost every video when they came out. There were so many videos I watched from youtube that I wouldnt have watched without dan in them

[@Turbogirl90]

Idk this podcast episode really rubbed me the wrong way. Not everyone’s experience as a KZbinr is going to be the same, just because you can look at metrics and comments and be neutral about it, doesn’t mean others are complaining for the sake of it. Also there is much more nuance and context that should have left Dan out of the conversation if you don’t know his content/ personality more in depth. I think there’s a much bigger conversation to be had about the effects of social media, constant criticism, having to measure up, people telling you how to succeed and win in an algorithm. It just seems so tone deaf to me that Ben puts people in who struggle with their mental health and measuring up to metrics as somehow weaker or “I don’t understand why ppl respond that way”. It just seems like a lack of empathy from Ben especially, almost anger at the fact that some people ACTUALLY feel burnt out. Even if you think it’s “not that much work, ur just in ur room making videos”, explain to me why you think Cristine needs a break from pushing herself all the time in every aspect. It is not easy to just change ur mindset, to let go of metrics controlling how you feel. It’s the same as scrolling on Instagram and comparing yourself to models, that’s not what Instagram is meant for, but it is not the fault of the user if they end up feeling bad about their bodies. Idk this shit pissed me off fr.

[@noodle3851]

It was giving narcissism. Cristine has took long breaks even tho she never got a bunch of hate. If its not a lot of hardwork then why did she take a hiatus from her main channel. They came of as hypocrites

[@mikhalajayne3543]

I really thought this vid was gonna be Cristine relating to Dan bc they've had very similar experiences but I am frankly feeling the same way and I hope they don't gloss over these comments

[@narwhalbacon0]

I don't think they were glossing over it being hard work I think the point was the burn out might have been from being in the public eye rather than work( and I think they were sympathetic to this). I think this distinction is brought up because tons of people work super hard for far less ( and don't have the choice to stop) so they just wanted to acknowledge the privilege of being a successful creator. Also Christine was working another job and running a business so everyone's situation is different.

[@bvbarmygurl]

Dan didn’t just push off other opportunity he literally said no to other platforms that wanted to produce his show because he wanted to do it with KZbin. And KZbin said they wanted to as well. So it was extremely unprofessional that they asked him to be in these creator events repeatedly basically dangling the proverbial carrot of being able to produce his own comedy show in front of his face. I know Ben is a very smart man but he isn’t a big creator, yes he could be but he isn’t and Cristine hasn’t been at Dans level until more recently. And he’s basically be off from making steady videos for about 3 1/2 years now. Yet he still has 6M subscribers. I feel that a lot of this pod cast was a little tone deaf especially from Bens side..

[@alexisc3658]

Yeah as a fan of Dan I very much felt like this video was for me. It was weird to see him disappear off his main channel for a long time but still to be making KZbin branded content. It was…odd,but he would still pop up to tell us big stuff was coming. I really appreciate seeing what was going on from that time from his perspective and why none of those project came through. I think it was less a ‘call to action’ against KZbin and more an explanation for the fans.

[@samanthalaine8064]

When I say Cris has horse girl hair, I don't mean to be negative. It is a compliment. You are a powerful horse woman

[@genericplantlife]

Man that part around 39 minutes in got intense for a moment. I definitely agree and have seen people on this very channel act personally offended by Cristine's or Ben's opinions that have no bearing on anyone other than Cristine or Ben. I get it, I know I too can get defensive when someone doesn't like the thing I like, even if it's as simple as a TV show. But it's something that we as decent human beings should learn to control, not take out on people who are just expressing their own opinions. People love to project too much on creators they enjoy, then get unreasonably disappointed over the smallest things.

[@Blue-iv5fv]

hey, may i ask something? you don't have to answer if you don't want to, it's just something i have been wondering for some time and since you said you also can get defensive about this i thought maybe you can answer me. for context, i am autistic and it's hard to understand why people feel certain things until they explain. so, when someone doesn't like something that you really like, what thoughts come into your mind that make you start to feel defensive? like does it feel like an attack towards the thing you like? actually, some weeks ago i was talking to my brother about how i absolutely love McNuggets and how they trigger this deep happy memory from childhood for me or something. he however said that no they are not good at all and he didn't get why i like them. i said oh ok i just love them cuz they still taste the same and always comfort me. but he continued dissing them and kind of trying to convince me to agree to the point where i had to just leave the conversation. what i don't understand is that i was just saying how i feel about them and nowhere does that make what he feels about them wrong (we are all entitled to our opinions) but why was he so adamant about changing my opinion. did he think that only one opinion can be right or was me liking them felt like an insult to his taste? and i see this in many places (of course Cristine talked about this here too) and i just don't understand what goes on in someone's mind (unless it is someone just trying to be rude or leave a hate comment) to argue such harmless opinions cuz there has to be a reason, right? sorry, i hope this is not unpleasant

[@priscillaandrade5750]

@@Blue-iv5fv For your first question, for me it depends on the context of what the person is saying. If they said something negative about some that I like, my immediate thought is “how dare you say something bad about (insert name here)” if it’s not negative sounding and more neutral sounding then I try to get more info from them like “what didn’t you like about it.” For me it just depends on the way people say it for me to get a certain reaction. Continuing in to what your brother was saying about McNuggets. I think he was trying to convince you to hate them just so both of you can hate something together. A lot people like convincing others to change their opinion in something. I am guilty of doing both actually. I have been easily convinced to hate something and have tried to convince someone to hate something I don’t like. It’s something I’m working on because like you said, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I don’t have to like your opinion and you also don’t have to like mine. But there is no reason to get mad at someone for not liking or sharing the same thing as you. Keep liking your McNuggets! McNuggets are awesome and delicious 😋

[@Rochelbonk]

@@Blue-iv5fv Not the poster of the original comment, but what you both wrote intrigued me. I think a part of feeling defensive might be the society we live in and what was taught is our way of thinking. Sometimes it seems that there is only right or wrong and no grey area for discussion and listening to each others opinion and why it is we think this way. To take your situation on McNuggets: we all know fastfood is not the best for our health. Processed food in general isn't. Moreover, something can be said for the meat industry and environment. I can imagine people associating everthing connected to this fastfood chain as wrong. For them there is nothing good or right about McNuggets, it is all considered negative. When you mention you have happy memories when eating McNuggets, it is something positive. It collides with this believe that all is negative. When there is no space to consider some elses opinion, experience or value we might get defensive. I think we sometimes make the association that if someone doesn't agree with us, they immediately think our opinion/view is wrong. Saying "you're wrong" leads to a different response than "I think different about that." It's the unspoken things in a conservation that we fill in ourselves that creates this defensive reaction. Maybe we all lack a bit of empathy because there is such a large focus on ourselves. Or we are prone to use the word with the wrong connotation in a discussion because we did not have time to think about our words and say the first thing that comes to mind which leads to a defensive reaction (a very human error, we don't have the luxury to think about every sentence for 5 minutes). There is no right or wrong, only two opposites with a large scale in between. We decide as a person, a community or culture what is right or wrong (something that really struck me when I had to read Things Fall Apart by Chinua Achebe, as someone from Western Europe). Cristine only watches a movie once, I can watch a movie 3 times in a row. Two opposites, with loads of people in between who watch movies in their own way. For me there is no right way to watch a movie as long as you enjoy it. Would Cristine and I ever agree on the amount of times we should watch movies (hypothetically)? No, but we can agree to disagree and there is nothing wrong with that. Well, that was my tuesday night philosophy moment, you're free to agree or disagree with me (or something in between) ;)

[@Alyssa684]

I think with the vacation episode that got taken down people were just mad that she has the ability to travel and doesn’t. I think people think that vacations will magically make them happy and their lives would be so much better if they could just have this unattainable thing, so the fact that she can but doesn’t is offensive to them. In reality they’re just unhappy with their lives and maybe they’d be happy briefly on their vacation and go back to their sad life, but more likely they’d find something to be upset about on vacation then go back to their upsetting life because that’s the narrative they’ve created for themselves. It sucks to have those shitty sad people make Cristine feel so shitty and sad.

[@Blue-iv5fv]

@@priscillaandrade5750 thank you 😊 this explains a lot

[@nelly5376]

Still at the beginning of the podcast, and listening to Simply and Ben talk about Dan and Phil, who I watched religiously when I was in my early 20s is crazy ЕТА a comment re: the 54 minute mark. The difference between you working on a project at work and the company then changing direction, and Dan working on a project which ultimately got cancelled, is that you still got paid, and he definitely did not.

[@D0MiN0ChAn]

Plus, Dan poured a lot of his own money into this project and was basically left with nothing 😕

[@notquiteasamazingjess]

I really don’t like how Ben spoke about the length of Dan’s video. It was an hour of Dan not talking about himself, or being “self-indulgent”, it was him explaining his absence for two years. There was two years where he was promising there would be more, bigger content, and he finally had to acknowledge that it wasn’t going to happen. I am also somewhat disappointed in Christines comment about how sometimes projects get cancelled. Dan convinced his team NOT to go after other opportunities because KZbin told him that they would work with him. He spent a lot of money on this opportunity. He will never get that back. I think you guys can look at things however you like, but the fact of the matter is that KZbin was more than willing to use Dan for token representation, requiring extremely personal content, but they weren’t willing to put their money where their mouth was.

[@notquiteasamazingjess]

@Megan Kevan how is saying that Ben did a bad job of representing the complexity of the issue meant to hurt them? I honestly don’t know how exactly he could have done it better, but he was pretty dismissive of the main thing that Dan was talking about. I specifically worded my comment after looking at all the other comments that were far less nice than I was. And to be honest, there are times when people don’t have to be nice when you are discounting someone’s experience of “KZbin used a part of my identity to make money and promised me repayment, but they lied to me.” If you want constructive, don’t call other people narcissistic for advocating for themselves, it makes you look bad.

[@cobaltblu4196]

17:53 Another reason why both of these Issues may not affect you two as much is because of your stable income you both get from your crime statistics jobs, where as your typical youtuber is doing KZbin full time. Dan mentioned barely being able to afford rent where he and phil lived. the Burnout seems to come from not being able to put out quality content at a rate that KZbin demands.

[@Heartcore90]

This was an interesting listen as I was cooking my dinner :) I agree a lot with what you guys said. Especially on burnout part and personal attacks. However, as a gay male myself, I think my takeaway from Dan's video had some extra points where maybe you guys didn't really touch upon :) He mentioned demonetization of videos because of the words "gay" or "trans". Also not hearing from YT for his projects while being invited to events as a face for inclusivity was very interesting too. Maybe that's why he felt used? Also him being threatened to be outed etc. I want end my comment by saying that I really look forward Taco Tuesdays.

[@emmah5846]

I found Dan and Phil way before 2016, don’t know that I would consider them 2016 you tubers, feel like they started getting bigger in like 2014 personally. I think there are fair criticisms to be made about youtubers burnout/ you tubers entitlement ect and yes an hour+ video about urself being missing on a platform is kind of a lot lol then again dedicated fans appreciate the content. But I feel like Dan has the right to feel a bit used by youtube. He’s a huge creator that’s been loyal to the platform for a long time. And corporations like KZbin love to prop up minorities to spout how diverse they are, I can see how Dan would feel tokenized or used in that situation especially since it seemed YT was leading him on about a project getting made potentially. It’s pretty common for people to do extra things for work when they believe there is a reward for them on the other side. It genuinely sounded like he believed that opportunity was going to come true. I have my own questions about the business side of things and how that was being handled by management ect. But ultimately it doesn’t really matter to me the fine details of it all, I am just happy to have him back producing content that he will enjoy making❤️.

[@lucybw]

I think there should really have been some nuance on the topic of channel metrics in relation to mental health. Many people in general, but also many youtubers (including Dan) struggle with various mental health issues. We can go into anxiety and/or depression spirals that don't care about logic or reason and a lot of the time, it's just incredibly hard to ignore the things that trigger those feelings. Ben and Cristine appear to be extremely well-adjusted, logic driven people, but many people are not and can't flip a switch and tell themselves "this doesn't matter, I'll just ignore it and it won't bother me"

[@shrutimishra242]

sorry cristine and ben, but i don't think you were very empathetic in the video. when you're talking about projects falling through in regular companies, you still have a regular income and you're doing something for someone else. his experience was more like going into business for oneself and if your main investor pulls out after saying they would, it's justified to feel wronged. they didn't owe him making the tv show but there was a commitment. also again it's weird to me that you think it's good that he at least got exposure, especially as influencers. that's not what he wanted or needed - he wanted to make the show which they said they'd make with him. they were using him as an LGBTQ prop. his experience with feeling burnout and that his privacy was being invaded was also because of the homophobic comments he'd get and all the guessing of his sexuality when that was a trigger for him and his depression. as someone who has had a real job and is a media student, i also recognise the difference in getting one negative comment in real life (where people are inclined to be less harsh in a professional setting) as opposed to getting thousands of online comments from anonymous people who feel free to say anything without thinking about how it would affect someone. it's easy to say "well then just don't do it if it's so difficult" but that's like saying if you don't like your job just quit. people have their aspirations and goals and life circumstances, that you don't know about. i don't think you discussed the topics keeping his personal experiences in mind and i don't think it's fair to discuss any of it without context because his channel and this video was deeply personal. i really like your videos generally but i have a different opinion this time. i hope my comment isn't too harsh, don't want to make you feel bad but yeah i thought some context and empathy was lacking. also everyone doesn't process things the same way or feel things the same way, so I didn't like you questioning why he felt betrayed and used. he's allowed to. i think he in fact ddi a great job maintaining objectivity and not telling off everyone at KZbin. i personally believe that corporations do owe something to the individuals who make it successful. just because their priorities changed, it doesn't mean they should have strung him along. clear fair communication is a basic expectation. i feel like you didn't want to say anything negative about KZbin based on your experience and relationship but his experience on the platform has been completely different than yours. he's been popular much before 2016, he's not from that generation of creators actually, but from like 2 generations before that. it seemed in bad taste to me to downplay his experience and question his motives considering everything else hope i was able to articulate my thoughts without sounding too mean!

[@mrsmustachelover]

I think in terms of film and tv, that’s just the nature of the industry though, whether it be thru KZbin or traditional media, it’s something he’ll need to get used to if he continues. You hear of peoples life projects getting picked up and dropped all the time. The man who created squid games released an interview saying it took years for anyone to pick up his show idea and he was broke while waiting. Companies just go in different directions all the time. Hilary Duff had Disney behind her for a reboot, they released images of being on set so production had already started and in the end the reboot for Lizzy McGuire was cancelled due to disagreement 🤷🏻‍♀️ the rest of the topics I don’t have too much opinion on, I’m unfamiliar w his content but tv and film production has always seemed difficult to be successful in even without the social media exposure

[@shrutimishra242]

@@mrsmustachelover i agree but even hillary duff was disappointed and wrote an instagram post about it. dan is a youtuber and wanted to explain his side so he made a video about it and i think that's justified, it's not entitlement. also the worst part was KZbin constantly using him as the token gay guy in their promotion. they did extract favours from him as well so it makes sense why he's more disappointed to get this treatment from KZbin. he said he had other options too but he chose to stuck with this platform because it felt like home to him and because of their pre-existing working relationship. that should have been of some value to youtube as well

[@D0MiN0ChAn]

Completely agreed. Dan "originated" from a whole different YT landscape than Cristine and has since faced completely other changes and struggles than those who came afterwards.

[@RistrettoReader]

You said how I felt, and in a MUCH nicer way than I would have written it. I don’t get why they were so harsh on Dan. Jealousy that he was so viral and had such a devout following? Idk.

[@BigBeatlesFan121]

OMG YES!!!! I COMPLETELY AGREE WITH YOU!! You articulated my frustration with their perspective perfectly ❤️

[@lijiasmine]

We all had moments when we couldn’t fall asleep at night thinking “I should’ve said that”. Imagine being judged my millions of people on the internet. I truly consider Cristine a wise lady and a role model for myself. Thank you for your content as always!

[@jaqsre]

it’s great seeing that basically everyone in the comments agree with me on the dan video. i was very confused about your take on it honestly, but i thought i was just “butt hurt” because i’m a fan of daniels. don’t think that’s the case anymore thankfully.

[@Jadeeee2323]

I really agree with cristine in that first part. Ben was being obtuse pretending that people can easily just not personalize data that is about them.... like wtf not everyone is a statistician

[@D0MiN0ChAn]

My thoughts exactly! Left quite a bitter taste in my mouth.

[@katc.6922]

I thought it was just me feeling this way about Ben’s response to data. Not everyone can be like him and detach from data that represents a person’s success. And not everyone can take that data and rationalize that it is not a reflection of their hard work, but of KZbin’s algorithm. It’s great that some people can, but we are not all the same.

[@vickyou2238]

Agreed! From my personal experience, I can acknowledge as much as I want that the data is just data and not a reflection on myself, BUT that still doesn’t stop how I feel about seeing that data. Like others have said, it’s really great that Ben can separate his feelings from the data, but others can’t and I think that’s worth acknowledging.

[@shrutimishra242]

yes! even personally on a super small scale, I feel a big difference in how I feel posting on instagram with my likes hidden than without. when the numbers were public, it made me very anxious, even when i didn't have a reason to be as such "logically". platforms are changing how they present data for a reason. it does affect people

[@emmazhang7095]

Yes especially since a lot of cristine's content isn't as deeply personal as dan's, it's harder to detach from the stats when you're mainly telling about your life story than your nails etc

[@pumkin41297]

Dan and Phil had (probably still do idk) a big partnership with BBC and were frequently on BBC radio and tv programs so pretty much any British person with tv, radio, or the internet has been made aware of them, even if they didn’t realize it lol.

[@caitlin329]

They haven't done much with the BBC in a long time. Dan did one documentary, but aside from that they haven't really don't anything since the radio show ended. I don't ever remember them being frequently on TV, though.

[@pumkin41297]

@@caitlin329 good to know! I live in America so I don’t see much BBC content, but I remember when I was an active consumer of their content that they were often doing/filming things for BBC and thought mentioning their more “mainstream” media content would be relevant. Thank you!

[@turtlezen4292]

The BBC bankrolled some of the interactive Introverts tour the did in 2018. And hes continued to do interviews and small charity stuff with them even after DnP left the radio show.

[@ca-ke9493]

Good point! One of the opportunities that Dan might have passed up was with BBC, they have quite a lot of good connections there. I think Dan and Phil has consistently tried to uplift the youtube community and bridge the gap between the mainstream and youtube. They had a really successful radio show with BBC and put themselves on the line to organize opportunities for their fellow youtubers to do takeovers (while i think the decision was made to further their careers, it was also an intiative to bring youtubers and BBC closer together)

[@martianpudding9522]

I think having "your video is doing better/worse" is a lot harder to ignore than something like a table of data. If you had a table of the interactions with your last 10 videos on the front page you would have the same info but it would be up to you if you want to compare them and attach a value statement to that.

[@matchybea7994]

I don’t know about anyone else but I personally grew up watching a lot of KZbinrs who are now podcasting/streaming rather than making the same content as before - and I’ve come back to watching a lot of them because I had outgrown their old content and the longer form, more “mature” conversations are much more suited!

[@eyesofivy]

There are times When Cristine or Ben have an opinion that I personally am disappointed in hearing them express it, what I typically do in that situation is end the episode there and wait for next week’s episode. We’re different people with different life experiences and sometimes we’re not gonna see eye to eye, instead of letting myself get upset by it I just turn it off. No need to listen, no need to leave mean comments

[@Annoo18]

That's so true. I did exactly that during one podcast, I didn't want to hear their opinions about a certain subject and knew it will upset me so I just stop listened to it. However, even if I don't leave any mean comments or express my disappointment , I try to found comments that express my feelings (without any meaning to be mean) and like them. It might be just as bad but maybe I still want to see my opinion reflected in the comments.

[@gloria3426]

Honestly thought this was that. Its not often I feel disappointed with what feels like a lack of perspective but I do here. The thing that struck me the most was them not seeming to understand that Dan was being leveraged and touted as their token gay. He's a bigger deal outside of the fandom than they seem to understand and the relationship between minorities and youtube isn't one they seem to understand.

[@thenopedetective]

I think that's because they wanted to focus on the burnout side of it, which Cristine could identify with. Getting into power dynamics there was a lot going on which they likely didn't consider off the cuff, but as a straight couple working in a liberal government this wouldn't be one of the first things which comes to mind with burnout. Instead of being disappointed, I think just leaving a comment about how this is also something which could relate to Dan's frustration makes more sense. They're not all knowing or representative. they're two fairly educated, very well off people sharing their thoughts spontaneously. I work in mental health and so much burnout comes from being a minority. But most people don't really get the background on that unless they live it. Hopefully Ben sees some of the comments and realizes that there's a perspective they didn't have a chance to talk about, but the podcast is largely their own experiences so I'm not sure it makes sense for them to consider factors which don't relate to that in detail. Frankly I'm here for their experiences, I'd rather hear a queer person breakdown the other side of it.

[@lizthecowboy]

@@gloria3426 how can ask of them for a perspective which they literally can not and do not have?? leave that airspace for the actual queer folk, I don't need straight cis commentary.

[@makiya_hughes]

This may come from maturity though, us knowing telling people online we disagree doesn't help anyone so why comment negativity

[@rociocatalano852]

One thing I don't agree w/ Christine on, is when she talks about the time Dan lost due to KZbin postponing his project, and comparing it to regular jobs. When she talks about the project she worked on that was then for nothing, she still had her salary at the end of each month, and she still had a job when they cancelled that project, her career didn't stagnate greatly because of that. With Dan's project, his profit would come only after being able to release the final product, he didn't get paid, he cancelled many other things in his life to commit to that project which was then cancelled, which was also a passion project, something that fueled him. I think it's not a really good comparison, the effect of cancelling that project was much greater than a project being cut off at regular jobs, I think it compares more to being fired and not paid accordingly, honestly. (btw I know Dan has made quite a lot of money before, and he probably has investments and other revenues, so he's not "poor" but I'm just talking about the losses overall and how I don't think both things compare well)

[@analiesestrawberries7195]

I think the point of dan’s video was that he felt strung along by KZbin and used as a minority then dropped at the last minute. But “that’s just what happens at work” doesn’t mean he can’t be upset by it. Just because KZbin is a good career doesn’t mean he can’t feel taken advantage of. I think poor communication like that by your employer for 2 years would make anyone frustrated. Then Dan ends the video by stating how much he loves KZbin as a platform despite it all and he’s going to continue making content. I honestly thought he was too forgiving of KZbin after what they put him through. I think it’s a weird concept to accept whatever your job throws at you and “that’s just how it is”. It doesn’t have to be and you can ask to be treated what you’re worth and I think that’s what Dan was doing. Not to mention he wasn’t paid for the 2 years of working and putting off other opportunities like you would in another job where your project is scrapped last minute. Just because he’s already successful doesn’t mean he can’t feel upset and used by the situation.

[@macarenacabral4258]

I think there is more to burnout than what Ben's mentioning. Burnout is also frustration from the fact that you're working hard (even harder than ever) on something for which you're progressively seing diminishing results due to something that, to some extent, you cannot control. Sincerely, a burned out office worker 😅 Also, there is a masterful video by Dereck from Veritasium on this topic from about two years ago.

[@nadiamillones9979]

I kind of feel like Ben was a bit tone deaf about this topic

[@nuclearseahorse]

I would really like to see Simply respond to the comments section on this video. I'm seeing so many comments contextualizing Dan's video and it's very interesting to see so many people disagree or feel disappointed with the points made in this episode

[@momahl114]

This week, last week, and the now deleted vacation podcast a few weeks ago were all filled with comments disagreeing with them. I just feel like Ben & Cristine are out of touch with reality lately. They do not have to agree with the comments for sure but it’s like they’re wholly missing the points here.

[@nuclearseahorse]

@@momahl114 I didn't even notice the vacation podcast was deleted. I can't really imagine what there was to disagree with in that one lol

[@momahl114]

@@nuclearseahorse nothing to disagree with really. Cristine loves her job so much and that’s amazing! She doesn’t want to go on vacation because she loves what she does for holo taco and streaming. But many if not most of her viewers are working 9-5 longing for a nice vacation. Everyone is entitled to their feelings but saying a vacation is a waste of time was harsh. She is not a bad person and I feel terrible hearing that she reads comments like that! I also find it interesting that lately many of the topics on the pod have been disagreed with by a majority of the comment section. It would have been nicer to get the situation addressed instead of straight up deleting the whole thing and I hope that’s nothing what happens here.

[@Pixielocks]

Literally commenting on the last minute of the podcast- but funny story!! As someone who made beauty and fashion videos in 2016 I definitely got comments every now and then from simply nail logical fans on my videos- any time holographic things were featured there were often comments like “somebody call Cristine” lol it wasn’t annoying or anything except when they would accuse people of copying you for liking holographic things or even once I just said “Hello it’s Pixie” and someone was fuming saying I ripped off your opening UM...... I said Hello and my Name LOL

[@Bootysmoothie]

People do some silly petty bs , they're obviously bored and can think of nothing more creative

[@samoyeds243]

PIXIE HELLO ALL

[@atypicalamericangirl]

I feel like there's an element of Dan's piece your missing about being used by KZbin as well, not that I don't think everything you've said is valid, because it absolutely is, but Dan is also gay. He is and has been a very, very big personality for KZbin and he came out and KZbin seemed to seize that opportunity. Dan was a Token. There's a difference in being used and reaching for ambition and being used for tokenism because you're the super popular gay content creator. I think that's a caveat that really needs to be hashed out and analyzed in the same way because that also plays a factor, especially in today's world. America especially, but also the UK where Dan is. Being gay comes with it's own set of issues and experiences that take on a whole new nuance and subtext where before it was just working with one another.

[@mary_catherine2554]

I have been the one who comments inappropriately in person and online. I've been working to correct that because of these types of commentaries. Thank you so much for the real conversation about this.

[@PawsitiveKitty]

Thank you guys so much for this, I haven’t seen many videos deep diving into that video and I’m thrilled you dedicated an episode to it.

[@danirachbarro]

Yay! Love getting a silent majority shoutout. Thanks Cristine and Ben. Love all you're doing and its good to know you love it too ❤️

[@richardcrafton1805]

The thing about YTO asking Dan to participate in things was that he was asked to do so as representation for the queer community. So exposure was more for You tubes benefit than his, as youtube was advertising themselves as a brand friendly accepting yada yada whatever. If his retelling is accurate, he was dangled the carrot of getting to explore his creative ideas in exchange for selling his queerness out to a platform that later proved to only care about themselves despite the image they used him to put out. Yeah, that's a harsh way of wording it, but it's not wrong either. In the end, KZbin got what they wanted and what did Dan really get out of it? A lack of a contract is not an excuse for poor behavior.

[@Christine_990]

When you're used to data, you can look at it objectively. Also, a lot of big youtubers from that 2007-2016 era were kind of young & never got the "Real World Job" experience & while it's great they carved their own path, a lot of them missed out on experiences in working with others & bosses & deadlines & meeting numbers then the numbers change. The disappointments are very very personal when it's all about You. "Why arent my last few videos doing well? Do they not like me anymore?" And then you go to the comments & there's 8 nice ones from folks saying this is great, thanks for uploading, love the vid & 2 saying youve changed youre awful this is trash, get a rEaL jOb etc Bs. That's tough

[@katc.6922]

Well said 👏

[@hidden_animator522]

Especially when their content is about them and their lives. It becomes really personal then.

[@valp1705]

I was listening to the trypod from the try guys and they explain how they hired someone in charge of analyzing data and analytics on their channel…Which makes a lot of sense. I feel like a lot of creators struggle with looking at their data because it is to personal to for them to critique content that involves their personality and life, compared to someone in charge of channel performance and doesn’t take it personal

[@gabiwasabi2249]

These past few podcasts (like the Ben retiring podcast) have been amazing. These are some of favorites to listen to and bring up a lot of nuance and details that change how I think about things. Thank you for sharing them and making them

[@Alyssa684]

I feel like Cristine is close to leaving KZbin. She sounds like she’s about to cry this entire episode and I’m so sad for how much she’s dealing with in these comment sections the last couple episodes. Cristine, I have always respected your perspective and loved learning from you over the last few years. Please do whatever is best for you. Your real fan base will support you no matter what. We love you and would miss you if you left but we’d understand just as we did for Jenna who is now living her best life and we’re happy for her.

[@rawrrree]

if anything she said the opposite here... she's enjoying streams and podcasts more nowadays ^^

[@catk4942]

I really think she needs to do what a lot of big creators have done and hire people to filter/monitor/deal with the comments on streams and videos. There’s a reason a ton of creators have done that recently.

[@Laura-qu1xf]

I feel like this episode was really lacking because you completely neglected Dan's struggle with his identity and mental health in combination with youtube. I get that it might've felt not appropriate for you to talk about this as you can't relate to the perspective of a queer/gay man and the struggles that come with it, but by completely omitting this very important part of his story, I feel like you two, especially Ben if he isn't that familiar with Dan, were not able to grasp the real meaning of this video. A lot of the comparisons you drew were lacking as they did not consider this additional layer. That's just something I wanted to get off my heart, as a long-time follower and lover of both you and Dan :)

[@mentalprincess19]

I remember seeing this video published minutes before one of Simply's streams and watched the entire thing. It's really fascinating hearing OG YT personalities reflect on this unique experience they've had

[@ryansg9]

the relationship between Dan and KZbin was almost like that of an emotionally abusive relationship. Dan shared he's dreams and plans with KZbin, and KZbin strung him along with false hope while asking him to participate in events for them. Its very similar to Breadcrumbing, leading someone on with phonecalls, emails, events, but never intenting to commit. It must feel awful to have that drug out, let alone over the pando when peoples emotions an mental health werent at the strongest

[@paperyakuk]

When Cristine mentions a business change in direction and having to adapt to that in a traditional work environment, I think that’s a fair point but I do feel like when you create content for a living and that’s your predominant source of income then it’s more than just time that’s lost to an abandoned project, it’s a large chunk of income too. I can understand why that hits harder. There’s an argument that I think Ben brings up which is about not relying on others to make these projects happen but I think when you’ve been nurtured and coddled to the degree that Dan was by KZbin (as their poster boy), he obviously put all of his eggs in that basket. I can understand why that would feel more personal than someone working in an office job who is told to change projects midway through. I really enjoyed this discussion on the podcast! Its great to hear how it relates to Cristine’s personal experience.

[@sarahdavis2406]

Speaking as someone in the film industry though, that's still just how it works. I'd say Dan's experience was pretty typical of someone trying to get a series off the ground. I empathize that because he had an existing relationship with KZbin that he probably assumed his project would be prioritized in a way that it clearly wasn't, but it's absolutely an experience he's going to need to learn to adapt to if he ultimately wants to build a career in the film and tv space. Existing relationships make it easy to get your foot in the door, but they never guarantee success.

[@esmeraldagreengate4354]

@@sarahdavis2406 unless you are the child of someone and then the nepotism is rife.

[@LinneaRitland]

@@sarahdavis2406 I totally agree! Like, I empathize with Dan’s struggle but I think it’s really interesting that 2 years of back and forth with an eventual rejection was devastating to him - and understandably so - but for career writers/producers that’s totally normal (and for career writers/producers they’d probably have more than 1 project pitching at once - or at least not be pegging their whole creative career on the success of that one show - so that rejection isn’t so devastating…) He’s in an interesting situation if he actually wants to launch a career as a writer/producer/director, I wonder how much he’ll keep trying to rely on KZbin or if he’ll give up and eventually go to more traditional media producers with their potentially more reliable structures!

[@sarahdavis2406]

​@@esmeraldagreengate4354 and even then, it's not a golden ticket. Like I said, existing relationships will get you meetings, but they don't guarantee people will make your passion projects a reality, especially if it's your first one.

[@miss2531]

@@sarahdavis2406 the problem imo is he literally backed out and said no to other people because KZbin said they wanted his show

[@mariekeblom3003]

I really just want to give Christine a big hug ❤️ I understand how easy it can be to only see the negatives and how hard it is to talk about this and be so vulnerable. Please never forget how much love and support there is as well!

[@dopaminedrought395]

The main difference between the situation at 54:00 where you work for months on a project that gets pulled is that in a standard workplace you still get paid. If you work on the concept of a yt originals series and it doesn't get made, it's just work down the drain with no pay

[@meg1653]

Exactly, a lot of what KZbinrs talk about is actually just really messed up labor practices on KZbins side

[@Lauwiechan]

It is true every story has 2 sides. I do think that Dan poured so much of himself, time, money & energy into the show he wanted to make that it being canceled could feel the same as negative comments on 'your person' wich you discussed earlier.

[@Lauwiechan]

Btw I was expecting the word trolls but you guys kept it professional 😂

[@hautemesstom]

I’m a small creator and just wanted to touch on the analytics. I am really appreciative to have access to those analytics and like Cristine I think that people take it personally. I think I just wish it wasn’t the first thing you saw when logging into the studio. I think if that front page didn’t prioritize the analytics people would have less of an issue with it. Because you can use the studio for so many things like responding to comments, posting, and planning videos. I think people want the option to only see those analytics when they want to. I know for me I have to be a certain mood to look at that information to learn from it. 😊

[@andreacthelawyertrainee]

I found their discussion of monetizing hobbies really relatable in a non-youtube sense. I spent 8 years of my life wanting to be a pastry chef. I always loved baking and thought it would be the perfect career, however once I started working in the industry I became more and more disillusioned, to the point where I no longer enjoyed baking and honestly dreaded it. Once I switched career paths I started to actually enjoy baking again. I think it is great if you can be passionate about the work you do, but sometimes hobbies are best as hobbies.

[@sleepyyam5391]

just regarding the "without breaking into mainstream" comment Dan and Phil have interviewed the likes of Little Mix and had a Radio One show - in the UK that is pretty mainstream

[@_bebeboudeur_]

I'm pretty sure they also interviewed major emo bands on the bbc (I wanna say fall out boys?)

[@szlucc]

The data is not the problem. Give me ALL the data. It’s how they reduce it to one single sentence like “Uh oh, your video is doing worse than all your recent videos.” and put it on the top of the creator studio. Well thanks, I just worked on that video for 30+ hours… It’s not inspiring the slightest. I want to see the data and make my own conclusions.

[@roboreebee]

thank you for this pod, been bingeing so many and i just wanna say i LOVE watching this podcast 🫶🏽

[@shel_grace]

I’ve been a huge dan and Phil fan since 2015 and I fully understand the burnout of being in the public eye. False promises, the fact that KZbin led him on. It was very clear for a while he wasn’t happy and people demanded a lot of him. (Details on his personal life) it does seem like now the fans are grown up. I’m glad you guys had a conversation about this as KZbin is such a new thing and it begs the question of, where is it going? I enjoyed your guys input on the situation.

[@eveenorth6125]

Eeekkk so excited for this! One of the best parts of my week for sure ☺️

[@fikanera838]

I think the most amazing thing to come out of this podcast is that you read all the comments! It's a lovely sign that you enjoy interacting with your community, however it shifts & changes as your content develops. Best wishes from Czechia xxx

[@Rhavia]

On the topic of Dan expressing feeling taken advantage of in some way by participating in KZbin events, I think it's important to recognise that one of the one's he talked about was Pride. Because so many companies do just throw up a rainbow flag and do the whole rainbow capitalism thing, and both Google and KZbin have some weird history with LGBTQ+ erasure and censorship. I think it's fair for Dan to feel exploited, because he'd only recently come out and in his own words was still becoming comfortable with that publicly. As an LGBTQ+ person, it’s difficult not to see the situation as taking advantage of a creator who has *just* come out and therefore is a hot topic, and until that point seemingly hadn't wanted to be considered a role model, because of their very dedicated fanbase. He did opt in, but to me his video expressed pressure to please KZbin and remain desirable to work with, so it does sit uncomfortably with me. I feel this might be an experience not always immediately recognised by folk who aren't LGBTQ+ or part of a minority group, which is totally fair. You can't always see a perspective you've never experienced yourself. I just feel like there's a bit more nuance with the Pride project example because it was focussed on a specific part of Dan's identity vs. just him as a popular creator.

[@commentsareuss]

In my opinion, Dan collaborating with youtube to produce content for youtube as a brand, was him trying to continue to have a good relationship with the company in order to be in their good graces and potentially have his original content produced by them. He was exploited, in a sense, as a youtube veteran, a member of the LGBTQ+ community, for his audience and his sexuality, to be a part of these campaigns. Obviously he wasn't forced to participate, but in a "normal" job setting you would go out of your way to participate and get your name out there in order to have your ideas taken seriously. He seemed to say he was in conversation with a team for months and they kept having meetings about his projects, it makes sense to me that would make him believe production was in progress. I totally see the take on the video coming from a business perspective (def valid), but I think the that history related to who Dan is as a youtuber, and how youtube sees they could profit off of him as a gay man, was missing a little in the conversation :)

[@anafitzgeraldariza1041]

Just wanted to say I really appreciate you guys putting out these kinds of open and meaningful conversations and I hope you continue to make whatever content feels right 💜

[@milla4898]

Menchie so distractingly cute during serious discussion 😹

[@windydays6205]

Dan/phil's manager probably got weird abt ben filming bc when "phan speculation" was at it's peak, (despite both dan and phil being closeted individuals not just to the community but to their families as well) candid videos of them from youtuber events of them possibly holding hand/ doing any other pda would be spread around.

[@caitlin329]

Yep, a lot of the 'phan proof' was from these kinds of 'youtuber-only' situations

[@_bebeboudeur_]

this comment !

[@lycheens]

As far as the issue creators have with data, it is mostly how it’s presented. It’s one thing when the latest video metrics comparing it to others for people that upload often. I’m an animator making educational content (who recently quit) and my videos take months to make. I see that data for months and I always make an effort to improve the quality of each video, so it would be helpful to not have that be the very first thing I see whenever opening KZbin studio. The data is also quite flawed for some creators. Many educational videos are embedded in other platforms and ones labeled, “for kids,” get embedded with cookies stripped. That means that all views on platforms like EdPuzzle not only don’t pay, they don’t even count as a view. So I’m being hit in the face with data that says my video that I may have bought and learned upgraded software is performing much worse than something a year old that I now cringe at. If they just moved the data off of the opening tab, that would be great.

[@Blackhorselove1]

As someone that is very hypercritical of myself, these metrics can make me feel bad, at least in terms of Instagram. I get super obsessed with numbers, and even when I know I don’t NEED to check the metrics, I do. If a post doesn’t do super well it does get to me, but recently I’ve had some personal growth that lets me separate my social media performance from my self-worth.

[@jacqweee]

I will forever appreciate both of you being so honest!!