Area 419 Zero Reloading Press (8 month update)

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[@tyler6147]

People that complain about how you spend your money need to go back and watch the video where you asked for their advice.

[@afj2082]

The fact that your willing to take as much time as you did to explain to all of us the process, good, bad and indifferent! Is worth its weight in gold! People making those comments paid $1200 for the phone they are criticizing you on!, Hahaha most of them don’t appreciate the time effort and quality precision that goes into a simple machine, that in its simplicity is truly a work of art! And I have to agree it’s pretty sexy!, Thank you for he video.

[@FClassJohn]

Thank you.

[@DanielBoone337]

I went from loading with a RCBS Partner press for a couple years then upgraded to a Rock Chucker Supreme and a Dillon 550C I was leaning towards a turret press of some kind for a little bit... To each their own buddy this is a badass press I've got the chance to use a buddies. But people complaining about YOU buying a press that YOU wanted with YOUR hard earned money is something I'll never understand... LOL Great video brother keepem coming!!!

[@dargie12317]

You get one and you will enjoy reloading a lot more.

[@dangerousfreedom4965]

What do they cost?

[@marksmith2022]

@@dangerousfreedom4965 $1,275

[@fifd5]

Well said!

[@oscarbear7498]

@@marksmith2022 holy cow, are you serious 😅??? That's more than a progressive press

[@ctech01]

John, people are going to hate regardless of what you do or your accomplishments. Mostly jealousies, and opinions. I get ragged a lot because I bought a Sartorius Entris II BCE 223i scale with an Auto Trickler V3 set up last year. For me it was a no brainer over the FX120i. Between it and the LabRadar, there is no questioning my results from my load data testing, and the Forster Co-AX press, Neco Concentricity gauge and Hydro press confirms my case prep. The proof is on target and the numbers don't lie. For me,,, That's piece of mind and the reality of it is,, it's my business how I spend my money not any body else's. My most used,, common saying is,, To each, his own. Besides if you guys were not testing out the latest and greatest reloading tools. Guys like me would not know what tools to save our money up for next. I cut my teeth on Lee products when I started reloading and still use some Lee products to date. Mainly 45acp and 9mm. So let'um hate,, I'm loving every thing you are posting and I can't wait for the next video. Thank you Sir. Nothing but respect from ME.😎

[@FClassJohn]

Thank you, that's very kind of you and I really appreciate it.

[@AlfredoRicoX]

People who complain about the price are really saying "I wish I could afford it". It looks like an awesome system.

[@rmattson61]

Or maybe they are saying it's too much for what it does. Just because it's expensive does not mean it's better, but feel free to buy it.

[@AlfredoRicoX]

@@rmattson61 I wish I could afford it. lol

[@justice1327]

No, I am really saying it’s too much. I am very happy with my Forster coax. I get single-digit ED’s/SD’s. Best thing I ever spent my money on that I can truly say was worth it and I could truly say I saw a difference was my AMP. So far those with this press have not shown me that there is a difference on target.

[@AlfredoRicoX]

@@justice1327 I meant that I (me) wish I could afford it. I use the Co-ax too, it works great for me too. I would expect the difference to be in having a press with multiple dies and being able to switch the turret out. Plus it's a beauty. Considering how it's made, it's no surprise it's more expensive.

[@a_reptiledysfunction5267]

I see nothing wrong with buying a well made tool you can pass down to the next generation, most stay in the throw it away and buy a new one when it breaks in two years bracket for some reason

[@arronhamilton8091]

Cudos! I have this press also! Zero regrets for me as well! However I am adding the 21st century hydro press & Wilson inline micrometer seating dies to hone in on my loading for F-Class. But again! Zero regrets! I love my zero turret press! 👍🏻

[@toddcumberland132]

"I need it, I want it." That is good enough for me , every day of the week and twice on Sunday!

[@oscarbear7498]

All the things my gf complains about started by me saying that phrase

[@upnorthreloading2214]

I still have my old RCBS JR2. The "Junior" Rockchucker. I tried a Summit Press for a bit, and while it made resizing easier, I didn't really notice a difference otherwise. It'll take a lot to make me move on, but, honestly, when it's time to I'm going to buy something that I know will last and will be quality.

[@markphilpot8734]

Some will hate because they can’t afford it and yes there are more expensive presses, but it is unlikely that you can get a more accurate one. The machining that went into this and design of it is just better than so many others. There will be ones who love it and others who disagree, but I doubt that anyone is kicking if they have this press. It can beat your wallet up, but you can save up for it like gear changes with stereo equipment. The chase for higher grade gear is challenging. Don’t let the haters get your goat. Be happy you have one and continue to do the best work you can with it as it is the best press there is in my book. Press on sir!

[@FClassJohn]

Thank you I appreciate that.

[@taylorbokshowan5713]

I bought a 750 to size. I don’t do powder or seating on the Dillon. I thought about buying the 419 just to seat bullets on but it’s a bit short for my 300 rum and forester die, id still have to scoop the bullet in. I do multiple calibers and it’d be nice to leave all my seating dies set. But I went with a ammo master so I didn’t have to scoop bullets in. Not that big of deal to re set dies every now and then

[@ironbomb6753]

I can't believe it's been 8 months since this press was put in service. Nice.

[@FClassJohn]

Yeah it's gone fast.

[@sf2189]

I’m still loving mine too. I dont think you will find anyone with one doesnt love theirs.

[@FClassJohn]

That's great to hear.

[@Dagger4]

I’m just here to read comments from the small minded whinging about something that is well made, works as intended, and represents value to you. Anyone that considers this press a major expense doesn’t shoot enough to be taken seriously when discussing competitive precision rifle games. Keep on keeping on.

[@baer4547]

I totally get it! I have enough presses to open a reloading store:) I use a Harrell’s turret for. Up to 308, volume on 1050S for handguns, 550 for volume rifle, etc.

[@wildcat_reloading]

I really like that press, it on my wishlist... Among other things.... Alot of other things.. That said i am still a university student 😂and 22

[@rhcockrum8746]

Thanks for the update. Very thorough with great information.

[@jackd.jeffries3358]

Thank you for all the great information and videos, watching this one however, cost me a lot of money.. lol I’ll be retiring my MEC and joining the Zero Club.

[@lancmac]

I have a Dillon 550 and a Zero.... I use Dillon for miscelaneous other calibers and the Zero for my precision 308 rifle ammo.... The Dillon has more clearance/slop in the ram connections though...

[@williamcrist1887]

Why did you pick the 419 over other turret presses? I am running the Redding T7 and love it. I think I have 9 different tool heads for it right now. Mind you I have only had it since 2017 but it’s done great. I do have a Dillion RL1100 just for pistol stuff where I need speed. I also use to have a Lyman T-Mag press which served me well.

[@ngirardo86]

I LOVE my rock chucker supreme..if you dont need a progressive and can load single stage the rcbs rcs is a fantastic affordable press. I load everything on mine and given the chance if in uninterrupted I can really blow through a good 500rd in a couple hours.

[@pa6552]

Have you ever owned/worked on a T7? Just wondering how you would rate the magnitude of improvement over a T7...

[@William-Bill-Munny]

LOL nobody "needs" a 1961 Ferrari 250 GT California - but if you can afford one Ferris Bueller highly recommends it. If he was also a reloader I would expect him to feel the same way about the Zero Press.

[@gmanbeavis]

As much as I love Area 419 products and being a proud OH resident supporting OH business in shooting sports, I can't justify this over my Redding T-7. The price difference isn't made up in the quality and precision. HOWEVER, I do appreciate it and love it, but I just can't.

[@richarddickens3129]

Did you find the A419 lock rings to actually make a difference on any die operation? I read their claims but I wonder how much alignment can be skewed. IMHO Without marrying the threads of the die to the ring at production you can still end up with a variance. Thanks for your input. Enjoy your videos. They’ve been very helpful.

[@Forumrida38621]

Thanks John I just ordered one as well I've been using the lyman all american 8 turret press and that thing is sloppy as hell! Can't wait to get the zero

[@FClassJohn]

Awesome!

[@G5Hohn]

I can't imagine decapping on a press that nice. Definitely would keep the press to "clean" operations and not mess up something so nice. Primers have ground glass in them and that residue is abrasive. Not a material I want near a price that is machined so finely.

[@oscarbear7498]

He has a separate very gucci decapping area and a $600 priming station lol 😆

[@Slipprymongoose]

I upgraded to a mec marksman just before i saw this come out. I can see and appreciate the great features here but man mrs would kill me if I sank $$ into this.

[@Adcomb]

The MEC is a good press.

[@kriswilson5400]

Nothing wrong with the MEC, great value for money and runout is more than acceptable for precision reloading - does everything well.

[@ctech01]

Never, ever, under any circumstances do you tell your wife what you paid for your reloading equipment or guns. You always got a great deal, below half price and then some. If my Sons turn liberal or Dems before I die. "Which is not goin to happen." She is to sell them for 3 times what I said I paid for them.😎

[@brokespoke5424]

Thank you

[@tiju000]

Well I can perfectly see the use of it when somebody like me is reloading the same calibre for 3 different rifle and use 3 sets of sizing and seating die just because I'm lazy to reset the dies for each rifle ( Bullet puller - Gauge pin - Expander - FL Resize 1 - Seating 1 - FL Resize 2 - Seating 2 - FL Resize 3 - Seating 3) so make 9 stations..would not decap on that press. So perfect, now I only need to find a way to hide it when the delivery men pass the door (LOL)

[@hvguy]

Can you leave that lock handle a little loose while you use it?

[@bloke3006]

Oh no F-Class John, I just order a Dillion 750!

[@miketokar9010]

You’ll be very happy with the Dillon 750

[@RatelLaw]

Looks good

[@OFFICIALUND]

The accessory tray design baffles me. Too many holes and not enough space for tools.

[@85ZERO17]

CAN SOMEONE SPEAK TO WHY AN ARBOR PRESS AND WILSON DIE WOULD BE MORE ACCURATE OR CONSISTENT? IF TIME AND COST ARE NOT A CONSIDERATION.

[@hk93shooter]

wilson chamber dies hold the bullet in almost perfect alignment when seating. a normal die only pushes the top/sides of the bullet against the brass case mouth . equals much less run out and more consistency especially when using a dial indicator showing the seating pressure.

[@sahmadi1000]

What gives it the extra accuracy over T-7?

[@goodboyringo9716]

This press is a copy of a Redding T-7 press

[@MrWilliewonka69]

My only question is why do you need 10 slots for reloading. This is a real question I am just starting in loading

[@FClassJohn]

You could have other things in there like I do such as pointing die, bullet puller and so on. Also, some people put two cartridges worth of dies on a single turret.

[@iaahner]

in before "Keeping the zero press because it's amazing, but adding a 1050 with autodrive back for brass processing" One thing I am legitimately curious on though: why did you decide the ol Rockchucker was NOT for you? As someone with three dillon presses and a couple turrets on my bench, I find myself constantly reaching back to the trusty old rockchucker, especially for things like you mention "oops need a quick decap" or "Gotta pull a bullet." These tasks are the exact reason my rockchucker will always be on my personal 'forever list.' Curious where your dislike came from.

[@FClassJohn]

Not really a dislike for the chucker. What it really stems from is the fact that I only want one press on my bench. I don’t like a lot of clutter and while I understand the advantages of having multiple presses my goal has always been to have one press that does everything I need and fits my needs the best. They probably would make my life easier if I had multiple presses like you said but it’s just not the way my brain works unfortunately.

[@ZZ-uf4zv]

I have a Zero as well, along with a T7 and a Rock chucker Supreme and a Dillon RL1100 and a Lee APP for decapping pistol. My rock chucker is my decapping press exclusively to keep the mess out of my Zero and my T7, the very same job the APP performs for my Dillon.. I really like the Zero for my precision ammo and load the other normal fodder on the T7.

[@jaybigboy34]

I can see how you would like it, but wouldn't you rather use your new AMP seater so you can get the information on each bullet being seated?

[@csaa1980]

So do you have to use their dies with it or is it compatible with others, specifically forster?

[@FClassJohn]

With rare exception it'll work with any 7/8-14 die like Whidden, Forster, RCBS and others.

[@csaa1980]

@@FClassJohn thanks for the speedy reply, John.

[@tylerboyer2006]

Would love to get one but I have a press problem I have a few too many

[@NiteQwill_]

Does the cover still fit with the rear accessory mount?

[@FClassJohn]

Not completely which is unfortunate but it covers enough for me to still be happy.

[@texpatriot8462]

If you mounted a magnet in front of that spent primer tray and the Manet might prevent it from flying out.

[@FClassJohn]

I actually did that in the beginning until I trained myself not to blow the tray out. 😂

[@baer4547]

It looks like they took a Harrell’s turret press and enlarged it for larger then. 308 calibers…something about it just doesn’t feel right…besides cost…glad you like it..not for me

[@theroc495]

John, I decided to purchase the ram prime that I saw you had used, I also sprang for the primal rights cps...but I wanted to know if you think the Lee ram primer pocket swager will work with the zero press? I have a couple of thousand 5.56 brass I'm going to reload and I saw the setup on video but didn't know if it will work on the zero press ram because of its design...I'd appreciate your thoughts

[@FClassJohn]

I honestly don’t know how the sewage would work but I’m guessing it should be fine. You may want to contact area419 and ask and see what they say. As for the Ram prime, I’ve struggled with it and have stopped tying to use it and just use the CPS and couldn’t be happier.

[@theroc495]

@@FClassJohn ...yea, I have a ram prime but just went off and purchased a cps. I'm dealing with alot of 5.56 brass and want the best tool for the swage...so research continues, unless you have a suggestion?

[@FClassJohn]

@@theroc495 Like I said call aria 419 and see what they say but other than that I would just buy a Lee APP press. They are great and really cheap. You can pick one up at midway for something like $76 right now.

[@theroc495]

@@FClassJohn...I shall look into that, as well as call area 419 just to get their thoughts...thank you John !

[@TrevorCazes]

i just wish i could prime on it too

[@TheAcfallejoseph]

Why have I not seen this

[@dancarpenter6507]

Hi John, have you tried the Zero Modular Shellholder System ? If so what are your thoughts about it. Thanks in advance and congratulations on your fourth place finish at the Berger Southwest nationals

[@anonymous_friend]

Never meant a liberal reloader :)

[@MegaPoxie]

A progressive press ..... does Eric know you have one???

[@300balake_3]

First

[@TangoOne]

Some of us just take pride in owning nice things.. it's that simple.

[@Forumrida38621]

Also would love to see a video of your process!!

[@johnnyi2121]

Love mine! Smooth accurate and comfy to use 👍🏻

[@FClassJohn]

Totally agree!

[@stedmanwheless5372]

I just wish they would make a progressive press. I'd buy it in a heartbeat if it is of like quality.

[@nickbrown2748]

$ 1200.00 for a glorified Redding T-7. Way above the common mans pay grade.

[@truckinglife5678]

I always say people who cant afford something are always the first to say you don't need to spend the money on something you want. I'm glad you made this video its one of the presses I'm looking at getting.

[@chrisruthford4492]

That thing is sick, I don't need it but I want it.

[@chrisruthford4492]

Never mind, I just looked at the price. Will stick with my rock chucker and 550c.

[@jpkla5663]

I'm off to get some grey and black paint for my Redding T7

[@don_sharon]

Ha! I just bought the Dillon 550 based on your videos and partly because the A419 is not available. I appreciate the follow up videos. As a guy who is not part of a club, I like seeing other processes and hearing thoughts on why you like some things and not so much on others. As you said, I am thinking the 550 will fit my processes I have used and continue to refine over the past 20+ years of reloading.

[@FClassJohn]

That's great to hear. It's important to figure what works for you and why and once you do your reloading life will get so much easier.

[@JacksonMalcolm]

I'm so close to grabbing a 550c as well.

[@taylorbokshowan5713]

I bought a 750 after watching his vids and love it. Saving me a ton of time

[@mickroberts5166]

Money is not an issue, good things are expensive. Can this press do things other cant to justify its price tag? Is it that good? Certainly not, hence I bough it, used it and sold it and got my money back. Currently using a mec marksman. One thing I recall, event with the torque head locked down, mine produced more tolerance than a rigid O frame

[@MS-ek6up]

johnny gotta get rid of the rainbow hex handles LOLLLL

[@cnturion79]

I love mine too. So much leverage and smooth ! The entire set up is so robust. I only wish the tray was die holder instead of for the shells.

[@dangerousfreedom4965]

Cost$?

[@FClassJohn]

$1200 www.area419.com/product/the-zero-reloading-press/

[@careygruszie1107]

Ya it's expensive but one of the main reasons I bought it was it is built like a tank and will probably last forever. I've always upgraded every few years and decided no more. One and done.

[@Physics072]

LOL Zero Regrets Huge Pause.......... Its written all over his face and in his voice. Not being very sincere with the zero regrets part.

[@NoelLucas]

Love mine as well! One awesome woman builds every one of them.

[@justinvandee2008]

Really enjoy mine.

[@Physics072]

He acts like he can't have the Dillon and that. Its never going to be fast, not going to crank out 9mm, 32 acp, 45 colt, 450 bm, 223 fast. Use the Dillon for what it does best No way I would trade in my Dillon for that, its something to be used in addition but not replace. Whats the diameter of the main piston? does not look substantial.

[@bovineexcrement8635]

He's a winner!! he's not flipping a handle back and forth making bang bang boom boom. I sold my Dillon a long time ago and I will never buy another one, way overpriced for what they do, and with a cappy powder measure on top of it...

[@daviddegeorge1665]

I’m sure this got answered by why don’t you prep on a Dillion and load and size on the zero

[@FClassJohn]

Honestly the cost. I couldn't afford to have both especially if I wasn't really going to use the Dillon for anything other than a couple steps. It would end up being a $3000 decapper and expander and it didn't make sense for me to keep. That's all.

[@Shootingwithnerds]

Lol omg that was quite the slap on a pair a calipers hahaha 😢

[@williamheft2177]

John's videos are entertaining and some are also pretty interesting but y'all got to realize that the man also has a $600 priming tool sitting in the background. Watch for entertainment purposes and formulate your own opinions. Just because he likes it doesn't mean you need to run out and buy one.. A hand primer, Lee classic cast with Hornady LNL insert, high quality dies, and an autotricker/Fx120i gets me solid low runout and low SD's. There are several ways to get to a similar solution.

[@edd1e22]

I was told to be really careful using compressed air around areas of potential lead contamination/dust ie spent primers as it creates a lead dust cloud. Primers are made from ~35% lead styphnate/peroxide. I use a hepa vacuum to remove debris so that it contains the contamination.

[@johnkies5343]

I'm still using my Rock Chucker that I've had for 30 plus years. Had a Hornady Lock n Load for a couple of years but at that time I was loading for multiple calibers. The changes got tiresome so sold it and back to my Rock Chucker. I'm retired and can do a little or a lot at a time. I do think that is a great press. More than I need. If it works for you, God Bless.

[@VincitOmniaVeritas7]

What you didn’t like about the Rock Chucker? I own one for rifle cartridges and a Lyman all-American for pistol/revolver calibers. I’m still an amateur precision shooter, but I’ve been slowly building my reloading bench with any tool that proves go be useful.

[@benjo642]

Just got mine and massively disappointed,it cost me $2000 because I live in the uk,waited over a month,and it’s not smooth and if I try to use it slowly it sticks and binds,if I stop ram 1” up it sticks and have to jerk it loose

[@campnoutdoors1621]

I absolutely love my forster coax. I had a Redding turret head press and after a fair amount of use the turret head loosened up and introduced bind into the process. Perhaps Area 419 addressed this problem

[@ernieparker4309]

The price of this press is crazy for the precision you're getting. Other manufacturers would charge $2k plus all day.

[@Riccardo_V_Florio]

I'm new in the reloading world. Can you tell me the brand of the dies you're using and all their functions? Thanks

[@btm6930]

Hey John can you tell me what tool box you have it mounted on and how you mounted it to the tool box? That's how I want to mount mine but not sure what I need to get

[@mightyarmoryprecision]

Best turret press ever..

[@chrisfisher3900]

I use to say people were crazy for buying that thing. Now I’m one of the ones getting ready to buy one😂

[@linemen71]

John, have you ever used the mec marksman? If so what’s your opinion?

[@ericrumpel3105]

....so did you ever set-up an indicator on top of the resizing die to see how much flex there is ?

[@maxrizzo238]

Zero press aside, the giraud trimmer is definitely one of my forever tools as well. Best trimmer on the market

[@glockparaastra]

Really a cool press. Looks like it needs a sturdy bench and mount.

[@MountainTim22]

Do you prime and drop powder on the 419? Thanks!

[@Jp-mn1rq]

Zero complaints but back to the ol Dillon

[@blaineoneil6296]

I'm going to buy one soon...thanks

[@XD1908]

I have a turret made in the 40's how is this diffrent?

[@ARPatriot1776Official]

Enjoyed the video!

[@SigmaBallistics]

I plan on buying one of these soon thanks to you. The idea of setting up the dies and not having to touch them ever again really appeals to me as well as having a specific turret set up permanently for each gun/caliber.

[@dargie12317]

I bought one drom MidwayUSA and love it, buy once and cry once

[@JimWooddell]

John, just bought one. When I size, I really have to lean on the handle to get the correct bump. To get concentricity, I have to press, turn case and press again. I am talking 2 arms to press on 28 Nosler Hornady brass. About twice the effort as my rock chucker....which makes no sense to me. I tried to call them and have not been able to talk to anyone there about this. Even on an actual bump die, it is crazy the amount of pressure I have to put on it. I mean I am pressing hard against the stops. So, after the double press, my concentricity is very very good...easily within .001". Then I move the turret to my Wilson expander mandrel die. Lube the neck and run it through the mandrel. Concentricity goes nuts. Lucky to get .004" out of round. Crazy bad. Do you see any of this with your mandrel expander die? I do not like the feel of the wilson mandrels and just trying to figure out what is going on. Not a happy camper when a rockchucker out performs it.

[@FClassJohn]

Sorry you're having problems. I don't speak for them and am not affiliated in any way but I haven't had those issues. I now a few friends of mine don't care for the lack of cam-over when sizing but have gotten past that. As far as your mandrel situation, I can't speak to the Wilson versions but I do know that the Porter Precision Gage Pin Holder kzbin.info/www/bejne/fImcq4Cdjpqeqpo has worked well for me and have zero issues. I also had good luck with the 21st Century mandrels sets. Both of these companies make great expander tools. One other thing and I only say this because I'm guilty of this, there's times where I turn the turret and forget to tighten the wrench and that will definitely mess up your consistency. I had that happen after seating 100rds of ammo and I realized it after I was done. I've also done it while sizing. After using the press for a while I can't say it's happened recently BUT it does happen and does have a big effect on it.

[@JimWooddell]

@@FClassJohn Thanks! I think I am going to loose the Wilson Mandrel dies and go with the Porters. I ended up removing about .030" off the bottom of my die and that fixed the issue with it. My BR 243 die was perfect and just getting to the 65CM. Concentricity was okay on the 243 die. Hoping the 65 is good. The Turret is sweet. I have 3 calibers loaded on it and what a nice time saver. Living in Parker, Az. Almost getting too hot to shoot. Thanks for all the videos. Good stuff👍👍👍

[@ronnydowdy7432]

Good information

[@rustysranch2049]

That's cool, thanks for the update!

[@Soulman6969]

John, at 4:19 you talk about a piece for the Giraud Power Trimmer, I load 223 556, do the make a piece for the caliber. I have a Giraud Power Trimmer this would be a great processing step for me too TIA, can you send me a link

[@FClassJohn]

I had my gunsmith make custom inserts for the Giraud using my reamer so it perfectly matched my brass. There's also this which may help kzbin.info/www/bejne/aauUnXaqiJp2m5o

[@steffen707-]

If you were a hunter, but also enjoyed shooting 500 rounds a Year, had a decent press already, was kind of a gadget geek, and had $1200 burning a hole in your pocket, would you buy an Amp annealer, or the zero press and sell your old press?

[@FClassJohn]

Annealer if I had a decent press already and no good way to anneal.

[@donaldroyer4618]

I know this press doesn't have a powed measure but do you have a preference for a rust preventative to use for your turret press, Primarily for use on and close to the powder measure. I live in Atlanta, and the humidity is killing me! Thank you for any help you can give.

[@FClassJohn]

I haven't touched it in two years to be honest from a lubing standpoint so I don't have a great answer for you. I would contact your turret manufacturer and ask what their preferred lube is because they've probably done a fair amount of testing to see what works well for them. In general however I use this amzn.to/3W6Gh21 and amzn.to/3iQpMJa depending on my needs.

[@davespin9034]

I like the number of stations and the quality materials and machine work. my question is does it autp-index?

[@FClassJohn]

No auto indexing.

[@scarter176]

John, have you ever done the T7 ? I know the 419 is the top of the line but does the T7 suffice …or not.

[@FClassJohn]

I’m sorry but I’ve never used one so I can’t make any kind of comparison.