Arne Næss symposium 2023 Part 2 Capitalism, ecological breakdown, class struggle in the 21st century

[@Harlinson-ib1xk]

Muchas gracias, Jason Hickel, estos tipos se llevaron una paliza

[@Harlinson-ib1xk]

People not even know what capitalism and colonialism mean! Neverless, they defend it.

[@anthonymorris5084]

I know exactly what both mean. Who today is defending colonialism? Nobody practices this anymore. Capitalism is defended because it is proven to be the most efficient and effective economic system ever created.

[@Harlinson-ib1xk]

@@anthonymorris5084 What an innocent person you are. Proven? Proven by whom? By the atrocious figures of inequality and environmental damage? You make me laugh. Capitalism is atrocious, it hasn’t solved the problems of human well-being because that’s not the interest of a model that grows destructively. Have you seen the alarming figures on ecosystem and environmental indicators? If capitalism did better accounting, it wouldn’t claim to have produced anything other than an unheard-of wealth for the few and extreme poverty for many, alongside massive environmental devastation.

[@Harlinson-ib1xk]

@@anthonymorris5084 Now, are you telling me no one practices colonialism anymore? Are you that naive? Do you think colonialism is just guys with spears chasing naked natives? Come on, Europeans often believe their worldview is universal and not full of ideological biases that their condition as historical plunderers afforded them.

[@anthonymorris5084]

@@Harlinson-ib1xk The entire Western world embraces capitalism. The West represents the most successful societies this planet has ever seen, by any measurement you care to examine. Please find me a time when any society enjoyed economic equality. The history of humanity is a story of suffering and impoverishment. Wealth was owned by the dictator or the King. Everybody else worked from sun up until sundown in abject poverty. The Middle class is a capitalist creation. Life for humanity has never been better and data proves this. There is no moral imperative to make everybody economically equal. Nor is this even a possible endeavor. Socialism is the ideology of envy. The only goal should be to lift people out of poverty and capitalism has proven to succeed at this. "Environmental damage" is caused by consumption not capitalism. Every economic system is designed to facilitate the transaction of goods and services. If you want to live in depravation be my guest. Environmentalists all foolishly believe that the Earth is some kind of pristine place of harmony and purity that humans, like a parasite are wrecking. In fact the Earth is a hostile place that will kill you at any given opportunity. Humans have made it safer and more livable with each passing decade. Impact on nature is not some kind of evil, it's how humans flourish. Please enlighten me, where is colonialism being practiced today? Try to explain this without embracing socialist tropes.

[@anthonymorris5084]

There is no freedom without economic freedom.

[@Rnankn]

There can be political (assembly, religion, association, movement etc), social (housing, education, health, etc) and legal (no arbitrary detention, due process and fair trail, equality before the law, legal citizenship) freedoms in the absence of economic liberty and free markets (private property and contract). Just as there can be capitalism in the absence of political freedom: Russia and China.

[@anthonymorris5084]

@@Rnankn Removing economic freedom is simply the first freedom to go when socialists start intervening in markets.

[@AudioPervert1]

Economics is totally divorced from reality and biophysical limits. Hence F**K that

[@anthonymorris5084]

@@Harlinson-ib1xk Capitalism is definitively the democratization of the economy. Why do you think they call it free market economics? The buyer and seller come to a mutually agreed upon price. Labor is exchanged for money on an agreed upon fee. Products and services are provided based on the consumers wants and needs. Profits are the incentive and the reward for risk taking. Centrally planned economies are not democratic and embrace none of the above.

[@Harlinson-ib1xk]

@@anthonymorris5084 do you think or believe that? Europeans are so inocents. Usted piensa que la depredación del sur global es un mito de tipos que quieren el atraso en vez del progreso. Usted piensa que la ciencia es hija del capitalismo pero cuando la ciencia rechaza el capitalismo entonces es un asunto ideológico. Muy cómoda esa posición. Así es el dogma: repetir y repetir sin pensar ni construir un pensamiento basado en evidencia. El mercado siempre ha existido, el mercado no es el capitalismo. Quiere recibir algo de clases de un sudamericano? Le gusta leer? O sólo años convencido de las mismas cosas? Poor boy

[@AudioPervert1]

The word Ecology itself has disappeared from every major environmental organization, policy, plan, expert reports and even the IPCC. For that every reason, industrial civilization is sure to collapse, for it's sheer arrogance and infinite growth (overshoot - also a missing word here)

[@anthonymorris5084]

Capitalism doesn't require infinite growth. This is a socialist trope recited endlessly. Rising standards of living and rising quality of life requires continued economic growth. Economic systems simply create this growth by facilitating the transaction of goods and services. Capitalism does it more efficiently. There is no evidence that industrial civilization is going to collapse. This sounds more like wishful thinking.