Ask Dave: Who Was Donald Tovey?

[@MDK2_Radio]

Published on his birthday, no less. Happy 147th, Sir Donald, wherever you are.

[@333peppy333]

Thank you for this introduction and sampler of Tovey. I feel absolutely ashamed that I am in my 50s and just now learning about this man. I'm a symphony cellist. It's important to know about the things we play.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Glad it was helpful!

[@Tenortalker]

Such a great man . His essays were still a must read when I was in Music College.

[@gregd1759]

Started to read d f Tovey in 1971 in red format, scored the hardbacks on the side of the road in 2015. Tovey’s rigour and the broadcasts of Karl Haas, for sheer breath of topics, were my guides. Finding on the side of a road a 45rpm of Haas playing is one of my treasures. But now I have Mr David Hurwitz to just show a breath and depth of music that I totally missed. There is now so much on his channel, I am just amazed.

[@benjaminharris2043]

When I worked in a music shop in Cambridge, England, I unearthed a vocal score of The Bride of Dionysus, Tovey’s opera. That was recorded a while back too. I also found all seven vols of the Musical Analysis books and another of his Lectures. They really are fascinating.

[@AlexMadorsky]

With Canadian maestro Bramwell Tovey’s recent passing, I inevitably found myself wondering if B. Tovey was related to Sir Donald. Sure enough, Bramwell has it at the top of his website FAQ; apparently he was asked the question about once a week. No family connection as it turns out, although the two gentlemen did meet each other once. Sir Donald was a thoughtful observer and I thank you for quoting and recommending him in your videos.

[@geertdecoster5301]

Again, and not even because of anything said here but for his entire championing of French music during his multiple long series... give Dave the Legion d'Honneur!

[@MichaelCWBell]

His 1924 notes on the Well-Tempered Klavier are excellent. I posted his quote that I found in Kenneth Clark’s Civilisation (1969) recently: “He (Bach) is the spectator of all musical time and existence, to whom it is not the smallest importance whether a thing be new or old, as long as it is true.” A picture of him would have been appreciated in this video. Thanks for your clear and interesting presentation.

[@alexanderrostel2167]

Great and entertaining video - as ever! 🙏 Perhaps deserving of a similar treatment: One sometimes reads in musical notes and essays that keys have shifted over time. For example, the key we now know as D Major was perceived as C or C# Major, i.e. a tone or a half tone lower, around 1850. Which consequences does that have? Or is this another obsession of the period instrument faction?

[@feedittothegoat388]

Good to see some attention placed on Tovey, his first movement of the Piano Concerto has enormous overtones of Busoni and Brahms, maybe even Bruckner. It is glorious and thrilling. I still play around with the idea of arranging it for piano solo but cannot locate a score of 2 pianos, rather a flimsy one piano score with embarrassing orchestra parts put in with half effort. Maybe someone here might know how to access one?

[@maxmachado8632]

Is that edition of the Essays on Musical Analysis still available? Thank you for another amazing video and for sharing more books and thoughts about classical music! Take care!

[@john1951w]

Brilliant stuff Dave. I love Tovey's essays. Other sources that I really enjoy include the Del Mar Richard Strauss books and the Rollo Myers symposium on 20th century music. I bet you have them, of course. Maybe some more reviews on books would be a good idea for you?

[@michaelfoley5932]

I was pleasantly surprised to find out that your first acquaintance with Beethoven's music was through William Steinberg's recording of the "Pastoral" symphony - because that is exactly what happened to me way back in 1968. Steinberg's mono recording was the first time I consciously listened to Beethoven and it turned my life upside down. Before that, I had little or no interest in classical music. Anyway, to get to the point, I decided to buy a book about the composer and I came across Donald Tovey's book (which was never completed by him). I couldn't make head nor tail of this work because I couldn't read a note of music (still can't) and I nearly despaired of ever getting a true understanding of Beethoven's music. But I persevered and today I can follow a good deal of this book without having to read any musical notation, because when Tovey says, for example: "One of the most powerful passages in Beethoven's early works is that which begins the second group of the first movement of the A major sonata, Opus 2, No. 2........" I know exactly what he's talking about because I can hear it in my head and you made exactly that point in your talk which I enjoyed immensely. This is getting a bit long-winded so I'll finish up mentioning that only Donald Francis Tovey would bring Humpty Dumpty into an essay on Beethoven.

[@mendyman]

Great! I learnt most of what I know about music from LEP sleeves, and Tovey was often mentioned. I must visit the source.

[@pabmusic1]

It was Thomas Dunhill ad Donald Tovey who 'taught' and actively promoted the young George Butterworth while he was at Eton.

[@hendriphile]

Grateful for this video on one of the wittiest writers on music. (First encountered him in articles in an old edition of the Britannica.) For example, he championed the "Consecration of the House" overture and wrote a wonderful essay on it.

[@johnmarchington3146]

Many thanks, David, for a fascinating talk about someone with whom I was definitely familiar, even though I have never read any of his essays.

[@yipengli1072]

I wish there could be an app of Tovey's writings. It would be good if there could be a soft copy of his various writings, especially the Essays in Musical Analysis. We can have the writings in our pocket on our mobile phones, accessible by piece or composer, and we don't need to worry about flipping between books.

[@JAMESLEVEE]

He was not only good friends with Julius Röntgen, but Hans Gál ss well (he helped Gál and his family settle in Edinburgh during the war after they fled the Anschlüss).

[@robertkunath1854]

I missed the first version of Tovey's essays back in college, because I looked at them and thought "I don't read music." But when I came across the reprints, I realized that Tovey was a brilliant writer and that I could learn a lot quite apart from, yes, not reading music. I haven't read them anywhere nearly as comprehensively as DH, but I'd like to mention two that DH didn't have time to highlight, but which I found delightful and illuminating: first, at least in my version (_Symphonies and Other Orchestral Works_ [Oxford 1989; orig. 1981]) he has a brilliant essay on Beethoven's "Consecration of the House" Overture that helped me have a vague idea of why that underplayed masterpiece is so extraordinary (and how often do you find 15 pages on an overture in your concert program?). Second, like many in England in the 1930s, Tovey was a Sibelian, and his essay on the Sibelius Symphony No. 7, written when it was quite new music, is a joy. My departed (d. 1993, at age 95) grandfather often mentioned how much he enjoyed reading the writings of "perceptive interpreters," and Tovey is one to cherish, as is DH, who has inspired me to listen to composers and works that I had long neglected, or to appreciate anew work that I love (Haydn! And I hope DH soon extends the crusade to Symphony No. 44 AND includes discussion of the best recordings too).

[@mhc2231]

Thank you David!!! That was a terrific discussion, very illuminating. I’ll go check out some essays immediately.

[@georgejohnson1498]

Watching this and looking at Tovey's "A Companion To Beethoven's Pianoforte Sonatas!" I was reading some of it yesterday ... The writing is so easy to read that one hardly needs to know anything of the music for it to be compelling. And so it is no surprise he is still a current talking point. Best wishes from George

[@chrismoule7242]

I am looking at my set of his Essays as we speak. One of my bibles. I have three bibles, and they are: Tovey's Essays Grove's "Beethoven & his Nine Symphonies" Barlow & Morgenstern "A Dictonary of Musical Themes" All of them have their weaknesses, of course.

[@stevengrainger9073]

Thanks so much. Is there a list of of interesting books about classical and romantic music?

[@kavansl8602]

Dave, any comments on "A musician talks "? I have tried many times to read them, but have always given up after a few chapters.

[@jaykauffman4775]

I have his Verdi bio - though there has been much scholarship since, its still worth reading

[@GL-hk3xb]

Thank you Dave to introduce Tovey’s writing 👏🏻 May I know the new published “The Classics of Music” if the book also include all the essays of Musical Analysis? Thank you.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

I includes none of them. It's entirely different material.

[@maxmachado8632]

Hello David! What do you think about Richard Taruskin’s witings on Music? Do you think that they are relevant? Thank you for reading and take care!

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Some are brilliant, and some are atrocious.

[@maxmachado8632]

@@DavesClassicalGuide Is his book “Defining Russia Musicaly” atrocious or brilliant? Thank you for reading!

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

@@maxmachado8632 You tell me!

[@zdl1965]

Tovey was a legend from a different era. However my generation responded better to Antony Hopkins, the chap who presented Talking About Music, not to be confused with the Hannibal Lecter guy. I found him to be far more accessible than Tovey.

[@stephenarnold6359]

.. and pianist. Tovey play all the beethoven and Brahms solo piano and concerto work in public many times

[@mpmternst]

Thanks for this. I’ll look into Tovey’s work. Do you recommend any of Virgil Thomson’s writings?

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Actually, I think Thomson was a pretty uninteresting writer.

[@anttivirolainen8223]

So he was the "polonaise for polar bears" guy?

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

That's him.

[@JAMESLEVEE]

Tovey had some unusual ideas regarding Beethoven's orchestration. Beethoven liked to rescore themes when they were reprised, and poor Sir Donald couldn't STAND it., at least in the first movement of the 5th Symphony. He thought that Beethoven reorchestrated the horn call that heralds the second subject in the exposition for the bassoon because the horns would have to be recrooked to play in C, which is ridiculous, since they've been playing in C the whole time. He was very prejudiced against the bassoon, considering it a musical buffoon. Beethoven, rather, thought it a very versatile instrument, with a great capacity for eloquence. Maybe it's due to the differences between the German and French bassoons, which I understand are substantial.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Tovey was by no means alone when it comes to that passage. Most early recordings of Beethoven's 5th rescore it for horns. Your generalization about his attitude towards Beethoven's rescorings is simply untrue.

[@JAMESLEVEE]

@@DavesClassicalGuide perhaps it was specific to that work. That said, I still stand by my statement about Tovey's attitude towards the bassoon, unless you can find a counterexample.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

@@JAMESLEVEE Your demand for a "counterexample" is impossible and illogical. You cited one, far from original example of what your described as Tovey's general loathing of Beethoven's rescorings. It is up to you to make the point.

[@JAMESLEVEE]

@@DavesClassicalGuide I made the claim. You're right. I'm recalling something I read possibly decades ago, and dimly at that. Since I can't recall my source, the point goes to you.

[@JAMESLEVEE]

So sorry you don't like the cello concerto. It's not as dull as you think, but, as you say, to each his own. I'm sure he thought that an hour's worth of Casals playing couldn't be a bad thing.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

That was his first mistake!

[@JAMESLEVEE]

@@DavesClassicalGuide 😂

[@kylejohnson8877]

The first movement is indeed far too long, but the quirky and jolly finale is completely delightful IMO!

[@bomcabedal]

As someone who spent too much of his formative years in the trenches of late Celi awfulness, allow me to offer my commiserations to you for undergoing his fan's bile. It's awful.