The riddle of the V2 rocket shape

[@kidfromtheseventies]

Great presentation, no wonder I don’t watch TV anymore.

[@Triple_J.1]

If a TV channel, such as Discovery, or History, wanted to be successful again. All they need to do is sign a deal with the top 100 KZbin content creators. It doesn't have to be weekly. Just a monthly segment in a weekly show.

[@lucasrem]

You printed it ?

[@-danR]

It's very detailed, but I'm surprised there was no mention, nor in the comments, of Robert Goddard's large rocket featured in the newspapers in 1920, a photo* which (held by Goddard and four volunteers) bears a strong resemblance to a stretch-V2, except for a somewhat blunter nose-section. von Braun, et al., were very cognizant of Goddard's research and carefully collected every scrap of information they could glean from the engineer's work, and unlike the American media did not think of him as some kind of moonstruck scientific eccentric. I will further add that, had Goddard intended that his first very large rocket would be spending most of its time in a _supersonic_ flow regime, the nose would likely have had an even more V2-like tapered-to-point figure than what we see in the photograph. _____ * “First Volunteer For Leap To Mars,” New York Times (1920)

[@-danR]

It is very detailed, but I'm surprised there was no mention, nor in the comments, of Robert Goddard's large rocket featured in the newspapers in 1920, a photo* which (held by Goddard and four volunteers) bears a strong resemblance to a stretch-V2, except for a somewhat blunter nose-section.

[@bluewhalestudioblenderanim1132]

can exaust change the drag profile of a rocket ? like acting as a filler of sorts under the engine section ? . . if you look at say: Falcon 9 whith the engine plume, the plume does have a similar (altho more roughly) ogive-like shape to it

[@BrianPetersen-l2w]

Excellent technical explanation of early rocket dynamics. My dad, who, became the Chief Scientist at Edwards AFB in the 60's tried to interest me in scientific research at an early age, guiding me to create a parabolic solar boiler in 6th grade, a geotropism experiment in 7th grade, and a smoke tunnel aerodynamics project in 8th grade. As it turned out, I choose to follow Chelsey Bonestell and become an artist and musician, always with great respect for the math abilities of scientists and engineers.

[@eastockerable]

Thanx.. My Dad was a jazz musician who built the Norden Bombsight tools with a top secret clearance during the War........

[@angrydoggy9170]

One of my music teachers described music as applied mathematics and physics with feeling. Always loved that way of approaching it.

[@Triple_J.1]

Time is related to speed which is related to distance. You can't have music without periodicity and timing.

[@kingkarlito]

cool story bro, shocked an artist could respect anyone who enjoys math. those science projects really impacted your life. what did you do in 9th grade?

[@kingkarlito]

@@eastockerable you just can't help but try to outdo someone whenever you get the chance? thanx... .... you too .............. ..........

[@efkastner]

Wow the production value is through the roof! I’m half way through and keep getting surprised by graphic transitions, in-the-field video, and great audio cues

[@thebluegrocer]

What a treat! A new video from Robert.

[@SurfWhammy]

If you have not mowed the grass in a few weeks, then grab a handful of grass and arrange the blades of grass according to length on a piece of paper. It will form an Ogive curve. This was an assignment when I took Probability and Statistics with Calculus while in college.

[@GlutenEruption]

Wow, I had no idea the middle section was perfectly straight! Even after you demonstrate it, the minute you put it back together I see it as curved again. It's a really strong optical illusion!

[@TheMp44drophyd]

This was an incredible video! The depth of both the historical and technical details were excellent.

[@RocketPlanet]

Hello. Many thanks for supporting my work. Every donation like this allows me to go on producing high-quality content on a subject that I'm passionate about, and there is a lot more to say. Best wishes Robert J Dalby

[@dorian8475]

I have never seen so much work into a video by editing and comprehensive explanation! Good job!

[@Mekchanoid]

Pleasantly surprised at the topic and excited to get another rich slice of this fascinating history! Thanks RJD

[@-danR]

I don't know how he missed the 1920 version of Dr. Goddard's large rocket, shown held by Goddard and 5 others in a photo in the NYT. That was almost certainly an inspiration to von Braun and his team, who followed the scientist's work and output assiduously.

[@andreafilippo3298]

Many thanks Robert for this excellent addition to the V2 design history.

[@maikvogel6632]

Thank You! Greeting's from Germany!

[@RocketPlanet]

Hello Maik, many thanks for supporting my work - I appreciate your contribution. Every donation like this allows me to go on producing high-quality content on a subject that I'm passionate about, I hope you keep watching. Best wishes Robert J Dalby

[@thomasf7772]

Best thing I have ever seen on KZbin. For sure.

[@typxxilps]

Finally the series goes on and on and on.

[@BO-D222]

I'm beyond glad I found this. Very smart. No frills.

[@nickfries4317]

This is wonderful content. I really appreciate how you show all the details related to how to perform the measurements and calculations and the origin of the work from the 20s. Very insightful and subscribed for future content.

[@stumccabe]

My goodness, that was thorough - and fascinating! Thanks.

[@mskellyrlv]

Another great video, to go with your amazing exposition of the V-2 turbo-pump. One anecdote I have either heard of or read about the fins on the V-2 may be of interest. When the ABMA engineers were doing the initial work on the Redstone, they were running into a brick wall over the tail fin design. No aerodynamic analysis ever came up with a fin shape such as the V-2 had: short span, very long chord. So they finally asked Von Braun about it. He replied that the short span was dictated by the fact that the V-2 had to be transported through existing railroad tunnels, and that, in turn, required the chord to be lengthened to provide the needed tail volume. Tail fins had a varied history in the American space program. Atlas and Titan II had none - their control systems were sufficiently high powered. In the Saturn family, the Saturn I and I-B are occasionally seen without tail fins. Those were all unmanned flights. The Saturn V had its four huge fins mounted on the engine fairing cones, yet the rocket was aerodynamically unstable at all but one instant during flight. At 60 seconds, the aerodynamic center of pressure exactly hit the center of mass. Before and after that, the CP was forward of the CG. Von Braun commented on this, noting that the fins were there for a failure mode in which one of the outboard F-1 engine's thrust vector actuators failed in the "hard-over" position (it was apparently the worst control failure they could imagine). The Saturn would immediately begin to pitch, but the fins would slow it down for long enough that the astronauts could activate the Launch Escape System, and get safely away. Von Braun noted that fins large enough to ensure aerodynamic stability would be so large and heavy that they would make the Saturn unable to perform a Moon landing mission. Today, control systems have been perfected to the point where aerodynamics can be practically neglected during boost. Unless it's on a Proton with a gyro wired up backwards....

[@bigmandrel]

"Television" at its absolute best. I listened in on one go and it went by in minutes, it seemed. I really enjoyed this. More importantly I learned a great deal, but even more important than that I got to thinking tangentially on my little personal area of knowledge. Priceless. Thank you!

[@AttilasWorkshop]

Truly excellent work. Not only a treasure trove of information but hugely entertaining as well. I have a deep affection for that V2 shape and unconsciously used it in some of my creations. I expected to see the rocket from the first Wallace and Gromit feature 'A grand day out' but I think you showed enough examples as is. Keep up the great work:)

[@DraigBlackCat]

Agreed, W&G are a big miss here - definitely would have helped lighten the mood a little!

[@markdoppelganger7810]

Loved the density of information and rare historical materials. Excellent format, much appreciated.

[@loxiasvlachos3026]

Fantastic work! Nicely done!

[@gsetful]

Stellar presentation!

[@bonkers_dave]

It's midnight and I'm watching this instead of asian baseball cheerleaders and bodycam videos. Accidentally learned something. Amazing work.

[@typxxilps]

11:07 - what a beautifull and simple explanation !

[@bodan1196]

@11:37 I half expected the middle to be removed, and nos and tail cone to be put together, and then place on the circle; which would have even more demostrated the shape following the radius.

[@frankwatervoort]

I really enjoy your videos and how in-depth your analysis goes. You can't find this kind of quality anywhere else. Well done. Please keep making videos. The V1, V2 and any WW2 tech in particular is very interesting to me.

[@mikesmith2905]

So much better than I was expecting. Excellent work, well researched and beautifully explained.

[@richardparrott7192]

This was extremely interesting! The wind tunnel information was fascinating! A deep, deep dive!

[@asdasfasdasd1749]

the amount of work you have put in this video is truly amazing and im still around the middlepoint

[@IsaacKuo]

So fascinating and informative! Some mortar bombs have a similar shape, but with an extended tail to store propellant, and more numerous smaller fins to fit within the bore diameter. I never really thought about how far back that sort of mortar bomb shape goes, but looking it up I think it's definitely more modern than the V2.

[@themachinestops]

This was great! I love your videos and the depth you go to in exploring this material. Keep up the good work!

[@pierrec1590]

I am sure it was the model that inspired Hergé for his rocket in "Destination Moon"(Objectif Lune,1950)

[@TheStowAway594]

I always think of tintin's rocket when I see the space x starship, they look very similar to a layman like me.

[@BigBoy4004]

...and Hergé confirmed that it did... Love the TinTin and Milou comics... ❤❤❤

[@-danR]

I think what inspired von Braun, in turn, was Robert Goddard's large rocket featured in the newspapers in 1920, a photo* which (held by Goddard and four volunteers) shows a strong resemblance to a stretch-V2, except for a somewhat blunter nose-section. I find it curious there is no mention of it in the video, nor (apparently) in the comments. von Braun, et aI., were quite cognizant of Goddard's research and carefully collected every scrap of information they could glean from the engineer's work, and unlike the American media did not think of him as some kind of moonstruck scientific eccentric. I will further add that, had Goddard intended that his first very large rocket would be spending most of its time in a supersonic flow regime, the nose would likely have had an even more V2-like tapered-to-point figure than what we see in the photograph. ___ * “First Volunteer For Leap To Mars,” New York Times (1920)

[@rldenny2]

I instantly recognized the same, having visited the Hergė museum outside of Brussels.

[@frankv7068]

As the great Haffaz Aladeen once said “The rocket is not pointy enough!”

[@PHOBOS1708]

Masterpiece of Presentation! Thankk you!

[@Melanie16040]

Thumbs up before the video began to play. Now, this comment as the first minute finishes. Your A4 content is AMAZING and I can not get enough of it. Even if I have to wait years for another sometimes. Thank you so much for making this content! You are one of the only channels I have set to all alerts.

[@Xsiondu]

YES!!! ANOTHER INSTALLMENT. I love when you upload

[@urbanwikstrom9246]

Exellent! I visited peenemunde in 2019. The museum was very informative. There was a lot of technical information on both V1 and V2. Thanks for a nice series of videos....! Great.👍!

[@anthonywebber1155]

You make fantastic programmes. I'm always impressed.

[@PetesGuide]

This is awesome! Here’s a personal story I hope will put a smile on your face. As a kid, one of my favorite toys was a water and air-powered plastic rocket. You had to pump it up by hand like a bicycle tire. As an adult, I somehow managed to become god friends with my childhood hero, who was a rocket scientist who had design oversight over all Apollo electronics and Werner on speed dial. So rockets have been on my brain just about forever. Yet it wasn’t until 1:10:50 that I finally remembered that little rocket, and the suddenly exclaimed OH! when I realized it had that stubby double ogive shape. Thank you so much for an awesome lesson and an even better memory.

[@robozstarrr8930]

HA! just reminded me of the last time i shot my air/water red rocket toy outside my folks home one sunny summer day. . . launched straight up with such a force . . . and then in horror, curved ~90 degrees and crashed straight into my sister's 2nd story bedroom window, remaining stuck in the window shooting out its remaining water getting everyone soaked... yep, exciting times my childhood was! ( will confess i did pump it up whaaay too much! ) on a side note learned how to cut window glass and apply window putty as Dad did the repairs.

[@john-rv3iv]

fantastic presentation, loved every minute, keep them coming.

[@rawnukles]

A man who loves to say "Tangent radius ogive double ended torpedo shape" and who can blame him.

[@AerospaceMatt]

Oh yes. I would’ve described it more as a “Sears-Haack body” or basically the shape with lowest supersonic drag.

[@robertm3730]

You have skills as an engineer and story teller. Somewhat rare to have both. Absolutely love your videos.

[@midorihafu]

I'm more of a humanities/historian kind of guy, but your beautiful presentation of the evolution of the tangent-radius/ogive/whatever shape of the V2 kept me glued to the screen, and without a single phallus in sight! What a great bit of research, thanks!

[@professorjulimarlopes43]

Another outstanding lecture from Robert Dalby. Thanks again. Greetings from Brazil.

[@highdesertdrew1844]

Too long to finish watching on my Lunch Break, I'll definitely come back for the rest. Up to about the 25 minute mark, the discussion of Ogive shapes, rifle bullets are usually about a 6 ogive, some peak out around 8, the only way to get sharper ogives and still fit the form factor of most gun systems is to use tangent ogives. FWIW, the original WW1 7.92 ball ammo was a 196gr Boat Tailed bullet, by WW2 it had shifted to a 150gr, this was to reduce recoil, however the 192gr bullet was retained for machine gun use. I will add more commentary as I finish the video. Great vid, much enjoyed.

[@HelSeher]

Great work! The video was very informative and extremely entertaining.

[@cerveraux]

you have to account the lens distortion for measuring curves with any lens

[@jan_deno8175]

super presentation. Apart from the technical aspects I loved the explanation of Peenemunde with superimposed images. Excellent.

[@tonypike8774]

OMG. This just popped up in my feed. Gonna grab a beer and settle down for what I know will be a brilliant vid. Thanks as always Robert. 😃

[@janvesely6353]

This is the perfect documentary in all aspects. And one more + for the Little Mole from Czechia:)

[@9m9ify]

Thank you for reviving my interest in math and design

[@evanwain1471]

Wow what impressive research and what a Genius in narrating it. Thank you for sharing with us!

[@Martinko_Pcik]

I didn't expect to learn so much about the shape of the fist rocket. Amazing presentation and delivery

[@SamRogers]

Absolutely loved this, thank you for making these Robert! I was half expecting Wallace & Gromit’s appearance…

[@curtislowe4577]

"The shape is a spherical tangent radius ogive double-ended torpedo". If one looks from above at the outline of a birch bark canoe as fabricated by eastern Native American tribal folks the V2 conic sections are more pointy and considerably longer but otherwise the overall shape is similar. Reducing drag has been a primary design requirement for centuries. (Millennia?)

[@hxl6162]

Man you rule, I love your videos 🎉🎉🎉best regards from Brazil

[@TiSIWO]

Amazing videos! I feel like I was attending a University Lecture! Keep them coming!!

[@richardgoold3306]

G’Day my friend Another fantastic video, excellent presentations on the V2/A-4 Just wondering have you ever thought of doing a video on available model kits of the A-4 Oh and just out of curiosity I have found that on the Shapewsys you can now purchase the V2 engine, also the Redstone and F-1 Rocket engine’s in 1/72 scale

[@janvesely6353]

Thanks!

[@RocketPlanet]

Hi Jan. Many thanks for supporting my work - I appreciate your contribution. Every donation like this allows me to go on producing high-quality content on a subject that I'm passionate about, and there is a lot more to say. Best wishes Robert J Dalby

[@unusedName1]

Your love and dedication in your videos is worth the love and dedication of the engineers who developed such marvelous things. They ought to be proud of you

[@WilliamHarbert69]

Fantastic presentation. Thank you.

[@ilyashick3178]

Never excepted what was done to design just shape V2. One of the best presentation of history of supersonic missile development in Germany

[@agranero6]

I played back the video 5 times from 10:25 to the beginning to understand the 12.5 factor until I let it go and at 11:55 you said you would explain later...oh boy...

[@keithmueller9860]

My advisor at school was the chief aerodynamicist on the V2, Rudolph Herman.

[@catfunt5583]

Fascinating, would have loved to have seen his commentary on this video

[@lucasrem]

@@catfunt5583 Rudolph Herman was the guy who build the Windtunnel, not a Nazi guy.

[@dwightelvey645]

I should really put this on your gyroscope V2 page but I thought I'd mentioned a couple things. You say it used a rheostat to read out the angle but the one in the picture was actually a variable capacitor. The advantage of that is that it can be used as a non-contact position indicator. What I really wanted to talk about was the electronic analog computer that was used between the gyroscopes and the fins. The original system tried to use a mechanical connection between the gyroscopes and the fins. This worked very poorly and almost caused the idea rocket to be scarped. The mechanical system was difficult to tune and had poor fine feedback. One of the engineers designed the remarkable analog tube computer that allowed the fine tuning of the feedback to match the mass and reaction time of the rocket. The most remarkable part was the use of AC amplifiers that could cancel out the DC drift that a typical DC amplifier would have created,over the time of flight of the rocket. The AC was also better for the variable capacitor used on the gyros. There is a paper the designer later published on the control computer. If I find it again I'll post it to you. It is a little complicated be really a most remarkable design.

[@hashmagandy2012]

Another great video from what is an under-appreciated KZbin Channel, imho. 👏👏👏

[@GregaJerin]

Legendary. Great work. We need more. 😁

[@osmoregulatoryorgan]

I absolutely love the nerding here. This is really interesting. Thank you.

[@BerndUlmann]

Brilliant, just brilliant! Thank you so much!

[@movax20h]

Excellent video. Actual research, not just speculation about the shape. I was a bit critical about length and repetitiveness in "Turbopump Part 2", but this one is just about perfect. Learned a lot here. So, these bullet / torpedo shape is more of a (pretty good) approximation of the perfect low drag shape, but in the end other features were more important than lowest drag shape. It is fascinating, that they stuck to the early shape, more as a precaution, and focused on other elements instead. I have no idea how would they even exactly manufacture these radii, because they are not just cones. Also, now I would not be able to unsee V2 in all the icons and logos.

[@SolarWebsite]

42:59 "this took about a minute" That seems to me an awfully short time to fully evacuate such a large vacuum vessel. I would have guessed something in the region of "a couple of hours". Is the 1 minute correct?

[@jfan4reva]

Which in turn makes you wonder how fast the air was traveling (peak velocity) when it was being evacuated. Probably very subsonic.

[@deBug67]

Wow, what a well researched and presented Video. Great work!

[@allangibson8494]

The American X-1 body shape was based on a known stable supersonic structure - the boat tailed 50 caliber spitzer bullet. That was derived from the German 13.2mm TuFG antitank rifle bullet of 1917. Later designs realised that ballistic missiles don’t need to be particularly aerodynamic because they depart the atmosphere… They shed aerodynamic niceties in flight to reduce weight.

[@Triple_J.1]

You can launch a cement pylon with enough thrust. The aero shape is there to reduce structural loads at max q.

[@jfan4reva]

I have a terrible attraction to vintage technical books filled with math I don't understand. Kind of like "Ignition" by John D Clark, which is filled with chemistry I don't understand. (wonder where I could get a copy of Cranz and Becker? Oh crap! Googled it, and it's online!) I remember reading about how the U.S. Army was very carefully documenting the construction of the V-2 after WWII, and the people doing it were puzzled by the fin shape. They couldn't find an aerodynamic reason for the shape. Finally they got hold of one of the original designers who told them that the reason was simple. The fins had their tips chopped off to fit through European railway tunnels!

[@lurkmoar3926]

What a wonderful documentary. 🏆 The V2 🚀🚀🚀 deserves such a tribute.

[@danoprea3066]

This is another excellent piece on V2! I come here periodically just for this. BTW, the nose of some modern ballistic missiles, such as ATACMS, is again ogival in shape.

[@johngayder9249]

Best episode yet! Was expecting the term “ballistic coefficient” to make an appearance, but I’m guessing that came later. Thank you.

[@corvuscorax5775]

Wow. Great deep dive into this topic.

[@ApolloKid1961]

I still have some difficulty with the fact that Wernher Von Braun was the founder of the design of the Saturn 5, which later landed on the moon 6 times.

[@ihabsglei]

6:49 Quick question, where did you get the original construction drawings?

[@luuko656]

Hes back!!!! A new video~!!!!!!!! YES YES YES!!!!

[@jetstreambrony]

Heads up, you have a fair bit of high frequency noise in the introduction section of the video where you are speaking on the set.

[@GeelongVic7140]

Thank you for a great informative video. Cheers.

[@siener]

Before watching the video, I'm going to take a wild guess and say that, just like the Bell X-1, the shape of the V2 was inspired by the shape of a bullet

[@Burninhellscrootoob]

Id say so, its exactly like the 8mm mauser spitzer bullet, of which, im sure von braun was well aware

[@GreaTVidsMedia]

Thanks Robert for a brilliant new video in the fascinating topic of V2

[@louis1952]

Well researched and presented! There's an awful lot to take on board here but the content was so good that I couldn't bring myself to pause. Perhaps the video should have been made in 2 or 3 parts?

[@clavius5734]

Fantastic video!

[@Togil2008]

Congratulations on this great video, I really enjoyed it. Many greetings from Northeast Germany!

[@SVanHutten]

Great episode, as usual. Thank you for all the effort and for sharing it here for free. Regarding the legacy of space exploration, I guess it was Ray Bradbury who said that perhaps mankind's greatest achievement, the 1969 manned Moon landing, failed to inspire artists to develop allegorical works. You made here an interesting point, as the first self-propelled, man-made object to reach space has indeed contributed its elegant and unmistakable shape at least to the realms of graphic design, GUIs and the internet. You never know what will trascend its original meaning and become something beyond that or even something else: The 3.5'' floppy disk (now defunct but still the icon for "save") and the cross (once an execution device, then the symbol for the "religion of love").

[@anguscampbell9311]

This explains the shape of the water rocket toy I had as a kid in the 60’s…

[@magnuskallas]

Seems it explains some of the designs of pens also - they move faster through the air as explained at 35:02 ;)

[@paulbrogger655]

An airliner analogue: Howard Hughes' Lockheed Constellation vs. Donald Douglas' DC-7; curvaceous vs. stovepipe; costly vs. economical in construction.

[@PowerScissor]

This guy owes me a model V2! I had one I was completely happy with, and now I know it isn't the correct shape, and I can't look at it the same. Great video!

[@neilfurby555]

Hugely interesting, wonderful content. A superb piece of …. Infotainment!!!

[@dingolovethrob]

That was a truly brilliant video. Yoiur simulated google streeet view of Peenemunde was absolutely fantastic. 11 out of 10.

[@maxieduardoapariciom.3181]

Beautiful work

[@BooBaddyBig]

One interesting thing I found in simulations is that the aerodynamics of vehicles matters less and less as the rocket gets longer. Something like a Saturn V would probably still easily reach orbit with a square nose cone (although they'd have to beef up the structure to avoid it collapsing.) The V2 is quite short, so it's not inconceivable that the superior shape helped it achieved its military objectives, but I don't know for sure.

[@BB-fff1]

In the adventures of Tintin "Destination Moon" the rocket is a v2.

[@Twangaming]

Excellent video. FYI one of your workbench mics has a very high pitched drone that is very unpleasant. First happens at the end of the intro then sporadically afterwards

[@John-wz3iu]

👍👍Excellent video...

[@tiitsaul9036]

A fantastic presentation.