Athearn Blue Box "Super-Tuning" Tips & Tricks. Do They Actually Work?

I researched and found out the steps how modelers "super-tuned" their Blue Box Athearn Locomotives to get better performance back in the day. Follow along to see if the techniques provide better performance.
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[@whiteknightcat]

- The oral care product that was suggested in the past for de-burring gears was Pearl Drops Tooth Polish - Polishing sintered iron wheels is not recommended as that reduces traction - Using graphite or any electrically conductive lubricant on motor bearings is not recommended - Adding weight may not be possible if DCC board, cab interior, etc is added - A better option than soldering directly to copper contact strip atop the motor is to cut off the ends of the steel clip-on contact strip, clip it in place on top of the copper contact, then solder to the steel clip instead of the copper. In the event of future maintenance and repair, the steel clip can be popped off without de-soldering the leads and the motor then disassembled or worked on.

[@classicmodeltrains]

Thanks for your input!!

[@michaelmorgan7893]

I used to use spade connectors with a horizontal offset for the motor wires, and I soldered my wire to those, and the center portion of the steel clip as you had mentioned in the past reply. This way, if I had to replace or repair the trucks, I didn't need to de-solder anything.

[@whiteknightcat]

@@michaelmorgan7893 EXCELLENT!

[@13thBear]

I enjoyed your in depth run at tuning up the Athearn diesel. Heck, I enjoy just listening to you talk. You have a pleasant voice and throw in some humor and I cherish that on KZbin. It’s like you are an old friend that I can hang out with at any time. You do interesting things with your model trains. Thumbs up, my friend!

[@73lemontwistcuda]

Ya I like listening to Ron it like my favorite hobby with Bob Ross

[@classicmodeltrains]

Thanks 13th! Your very kind :-)

[@Hjerte_Verke]

​@@classicmodeltrains You *may* have imperfect speech patterns, twitches and pauses (Shatner-esque pauses?) and say uh and um a lot but those have all been edited out, right? And boy there's a lot of edits or camera pauses/restarts in your videos. 😉 Regardless, it is a pretty well-polished presentation.

[@classicmodeltrains]

@@Hjerte_Verke I do have a slow speech pattern. Kind of like a stutterer but I make no noise so I edit those out to keep the pacing going.

[@danshobbies13]

Myth busted!! I love the BB locos. Cheap, parts are still available, easy to upgrade to DCC.

[@classicmodeltrains]

Thanks Dan :-)

[@PetesPrettyGoodTrains]

Recently did some batch tune ups of some Blue Box PA1s. As part of that I pulled all the gear boxes apart and ran the gears through my ultrasonic cleaner. When I went to reassemble the, i was essentially pulling random gears and mixing and matching. I found from doing it that way that some combos of gears worked better together than others. I had some trucks that when reassembled rolled as nicely as a freight car, others would just stop as soon as i stopped pushing on them. I felt like those caused more friction issues than the wheel bearings.

[@classicmodeltrains]

I agree. Sounds like they were "run in" to each other as a truck assembly but when they were all mixed and reassembled differently now they need a new "run in" period to loosen up.

[@wiseguysmith6519]

It always amazed me how the performance of these blue box locos varied from one to another, with some being very noisy and herky jerky, and others being whisper quiet and smooth running. Luck of draw i guess. lol

[@classicmodeltrains]

You bring up a good point :-)

[@PetesPrettyGoodTrains]

I think it was up to luck that whoever was assembling a particular one got lucky on the combo of parts, especially drive lines and gears, they used. Had some that sounded like hell and some that rivaled a Kato!

[@animalyze7120]

I would advise against listening to those Armchair engineers who pass on bad and useless advice based on what Papa or Grampa told them. The only ttruth was using toothpaste or an abrasive compound in the gears to break them in, aside from that good ol' Superlube and some labelle 107 for HO or 108 for N, it does make a difference too. We used mystery oil back in the day as it was cheaper and also CAM2 wheel bearing grease (Which still works well). The big weights they sold for the Geeps and F7's really help out with traction effort although make them a tad top hvy and can flip over on faster turns as we crazy kids discovered lol. All in all you don't have to do much with Athearns and they run solid and perform just fine. Yeah the loud runners can be a mild annoyance but it's far better than all that 'Ding Ding, Whoo Whoo" crap DCC engines make. I can run these in the basement layout without waking the Wife no matter how much they grind lol.

[@classicmodeltrains]

There is lots of Armchair "everything" out there that have a large bullhorn it seems ;-)

[@animalyze7120]

@@classicmodeltrains Yes lol I admit I offer advice when I see someone who really needs another point of view, but if they are happy with the results then that's the important part. Sadly too many insist on doing somethings the hard way or even a bad way and are impervious to help of any kind. I'm all about all of us helping the hobbies to not only grow but flourish. Especially train and model kits. I come off brash but that's my age and years of patience wearing thin lol Grumpy old man now I guess.

[@classicmodeltrains]

@@animalyze7120 I reread your comment and found nothing brash about it. Your Just sharing some good information learned from many years of experience. No worries Sir :-)

[@seancrossen4659]

Clover lapping compound might work better to get gears meshed better.

[@classicmodeltrains]

It would but not a lot of fellers have that laying around. I was attempting to use stuff that might be laying around the house for most people :-)

[@Nathan5Chime]

I think you meter was reading in degrees and not percent.

[@classicmodeltrains]

Yes it was. You have a sharp eye there Nathan. I dont believe it can measure percent because it depends on the length of the starting point to the ending point of the rise.

[@GreatBowlsAfire]

p.s.~ "Topal, the Smokers Tooth-Polish".... 🤣👍

[@classicmodeltrains]

Good idea!!

[@danielfantino1714]

Noisy ? What noisy ? That was original Athearn DC sound system of the heyday, and still quieter than a real one 😅😅 Remember when flywheels add on was a big novelty ! Not to mention all wheels powered and picking current. That was a real Cadillac at an affordable price. Ya, we said in those days that they were expensive, but never sucked 2 weeks pay check like today DCC cost. Good tuning 😊

[@classicmodeltrains]

Thanks Daniel!

[@dannyjones3840]

About time ya put up a new video Ron, going into withdrawals lol. I use dry graphite on my freight and passenger car trucks, works wonderful and won't pick up dirt like oil. I even used it on my daughter's race car in girl scouts, helped her take home the trophy

[@classicmodeltrains]

Winter storm really slowed me down. Yup Ive heard of quite a few Fellers using graphite on the cars. Congrats on the win with the little one as well :-)

[@modelrailpreservation]

A lot of great advice in this one. One thing that sometimes does go overlooked, is at one point, back in the early to mid 1980s, by my obeservations, the drive shaft components and sometimes even the center holes in the gears, can have a tiny bit of plastic flash. My guess has been that quality control slipped a bit at that point, but on locos I do know the history of, I've seen it on early 1980s production, before they went from cast metal sideframes to plastic. On the drive shaft couplings, this tiny bit of flash can cause a LOT of noise as the body can act like a resonating chamber.

[@classicmodeltrains]

I agree with your statement Sir!

[@deanmeyer7887]

You just got to run the sh/# out of it pulling a heavy load. It takes a few months but it will become a good loco. Promise I’ve done it.

[@classicmodeltrains]

I like your idea the best so far Dean :-)

[@stephendollahan425]

If the wheels were spinning, then it wasn't an axel problem,it was a traction problem. Polishing sintered wheels should not affect traction, as they are still rougher than plated wheels, which tells me that you probably got some of the dry graphite either on the track,or the wheels. Id startby cleaning both with mineral spirits, then using test leads to the motor for power, put a clean paper towel on a test trackand run the engine setting on the towel to clean off any remaining residue. Everything you did should have made that loco pull like an ox. Modern manufacturing methods have pretty much killed the need to lap in the gears the way we did with "Pearl Drops" tooth polish, and the results were marginal improvement's at best even back then. Great video as usual, and looking forward to seeing more 😊😊😊

[@classicmodeltrains]

Hello Stephen, You have brought up some interesting points. I'm pretty sure I did not contaminate the wheel surfaces but it would only take a bit of time to clean them as you stated and test again. Thanks for your information :-)

[@darrenrawlinson6344]

Every day is a school day. We all learn from trying and sometimes failing! Great video as always.

[@classicmodeltrains]

I agree Darren, now I know what and what not to do in there future :-)

[@2nd66tube2]

Graphite is actually abrasive and hard to suspend in oil, Machined brass flywheels are normally not cast

[@classicmodeltrains]

Why is graphite used as a lubricant if its abrasive? I agree with your statement about the flywheels. Sometimes I use the wrong word and don't catch it in editing.

[@2nd66tube2]

@@classicmodeltrains oh it's definitely slippery don't get me wrong. But by it's nature being dry powder it will also burnish

[@stewarttrains98]

I have never ever added oil to any athearn locomotives. All I do to clean the comutater is a brush with lacquer thinner in both directions. Add LaBelle 106 grease to the gears and send it on its way. Never have a problem in 35 years. I always replace the contact strip with wire as well and get rid of that bulb.

[@classicmodeltrains]

Thanks for the input Stewart!!

[@markwilliams2620]

Poor Ron! You've stumbled into the land of "YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG! (because my way is correct!)). You're a braver man than 👁️! From too many years on the subject here's my 26 cents gathered from decades of research. 1. Replace the steel clips with soldered wire. Pig tail it and use a 22-24 gauge for flexibility. 2. Replace the sintered iron wheels with NWSL or similar nickle silver sets. 2a. Or, chuck each wheel into a drill press and burnish the tread with a bit of clean wood. Makes them nice and shiney. I coat them with aircraft antioxidant but that stuff is $$$$$$. I got mine at a demo for free. 3. Pearl Drops was the abrasive of choice to run in the gears. No longer made. I tried some abrasive liquid cleaner on the old PA I bought and after a 30 minute run I noticed no sound change or current drop. I also got to clean off my table, walls, floor shirt, pants and shoes. 4. I use washers to keep my gears in centerline and to reduce gear wobble. Can't remember the size but they do make a difference in noise. 5. Polish the dog bones with 1000 grit wet sandpaper. Same for the cups. Brilliant idea on the brass weights. Darth Sante Fe drills his out for balancing. I tried. I failed. He's a much more talented machinist. Keep it up. Have fun. The way some folks go OCD on this I wonder if when Artemis lands on the moon, it'll be pulled along by some upgraded Blue Boxes. ( Did you know it was originally yellow?! Yes I did, and as a former printer I can tell you Irv got a better deal switiching to cyan because you get more coverage with less ink.) See thru roof fans! Must....buy.....see through...roof fans. Details West, don't forsake me 😭😭😭😭 Or I could just run it 🤔

[@classicmodeltrains]

Well Mark the comments have been interesting so far. Some people have missed the fact that this was what the Old Fellers back in the day did to there B.B. It's right in the title. "Does It Help" and "do They Work".........Well whats a guy to do. :-)

[@danbalmer1]

Good to know video. Thanks for taking the time to dispel the myths and show what does work. 78-73 dB does make a difference. May not sound like much (pun intended) but lash a couple of locos together. Thanks!

[@classicmodeltrains]

Thanks Dan!

[@MartinSBrown-tp9ji]

Delrin gears don't need any type of lubricant, it hurts not helps.

[@classicmodeltrains]

Ive heard Fellers say that. I even did a video where I did not lube the gears. Makes them quite loud though

[@w.rustylane5650]

I've been missing your videos as my computer was in the shop for repair. Now I got it back and can resume watching your videos. Keep 'em coming. I really like your test set up. If you accidently order the bright white like I did you can paint the LED's with some yellow acrylic paint and you have warm white. I can't believe none of that worked. Maybe the wheels are just too slick - guess that's why the older models used traction tires. Cheers from eastern TN

[@classicmodeltrains]

I messed up by polishing the sintered iron wheels. Many of the techniques worked successfully. Athearns never used traction tires to the best of my knowledge. Glad to see your back now!!

[@Syclone0044]

Testor’s Turn Signal Amber enamel works perfect for this. Even a felt tip marker works (but seems to lose some of its color after a day or two).

[@adrtplayhouse4240]

And I say a quiet thank you every time I'm reminded my blue box engines don't have those cursed things.

[@greglivo]

A tip of the engineer's cap to you for posting your experiment even though it seemed to be a failure. I'm a big fan of the Athearn blue box stuff. As a 1970's Tyco kid, that was the stuff we dreamed about but couldn't afford. I suspect that the change in decibels is because the added weights in the body shell act as dampeners to keep the plastic from resonating. Also, your randomly inserted Bigfoot comment made me bust out laughing. Final thought: is there a reason that the incline ramp has invasion stripes?

[@classicmodeltrains]

Hello Greg, I dont believe the experiment was a failure. Many things were learned. The ramp has them stripes as an ode to the myth busters show. They were always stripping stuff to determine the speed it was traveling :-)

[@JeffHanna-f3d]

Another great video Ron. I have over 30 Blue Box locomotives and they all run great with just the normal lube and oil maintenance. I will never understand the desire everyone has to replace the electrical pickup bar with soldering in a wire the bar works just fine. Stay well. Jeff

[@modelrailpreservation]

Only reason I've ever had to replace the pickup bar with soldered wires is when the bar is rusty or if it puts too much tension on the trucks. Barring that, some of my units, particularly my switchers and high nose GPs and SDs, have a rectifier diode wired to a bulb just behind the headlight lens at either end. In that case, in for a penny, in for a pound, and I replace the bar while I am at it.

[@classicmodeltrains]

Hello Jeff. After doing this I agree, the bar does just fine.

[@ecidaho]

I don’t solder and the bars are a magical wonder for me as they are so easy to remove for maintenance! Bkue Box locos are the best to clean and maintain!

[@w.rustylane5650]

@@ecidaho Yeah, I love the design of the Athearn locomotives. They're the easiest to work on. Cheers - TN

[@garykellerup3470]

So much fun Ron. I love the old blue box locos. All mine work just fine with the regular maintenance. They do get noisy. Thanks for the great video!

[@classicmodeltrains]

Thanks Gary!

[@Eastcoastrcboyz]

A big noise reduction improvement I've noticed from my experience is removing the tabs on the bottom of the motor plate that grounds it to the chassis, run a wire instead! There's a lot of vibration that's transferred and the chassis and trucks amplifies it. Awesome videos man, great work!

[@classicmodeltrains]

Sounds like a good idea to me!!

[@Devilninja333]

I hope that works out on my C 44-9

[@Eastcoastrcboyz]

@@Devilninja333 I just uploaded a short, it'll give you an idea what to possibly expect! ✌️

[@rickestabrook4987]

Tippi Hedrin, morther of Melanie Griffith.

[@classicmodeltrains]

Yup!

[@scottwebb8151]

I can attest to Blue Box noise.I live 1/4 mi. from a mainline.When a train passes by while running my Atherns,the models are louder than the real locos....still love em though ..Blue Box forever!

[@classicmodeltrains]

GRRRRrrrrrrrrrrr............ GOOD TIMES!! :-)

[@ruagoof2]

Great video Ron...all very interesting information. I actually think the results provided very useful information...My take away is this... - Polish the bearing surface, and commutator, along with the gear run in... - Do not polish the surface of the tires (this is reducing the friction and therefore lowering the traction) and increase weight - The loco will never roll like the caboose because of all the friction on the gears and their shafts...Maybe try comparing the roll with the gears out. - Lube and oil as usual. Also I note that the decibel scale is logarithmic and not linear...it is said that every 10db is perceived as doubling the sound so a 5db loss is actually a significant reduction. Rich...

[@classicmodeltrains]

Hello Rich, I agree with your statements. I learned what and what not to do. Just following What the old timers did back in the day to see if it was good information or not. I believe that for every 3 db increase it takes twice the amount of energy. Learned this back in my schlepping racks and stacks days.

[@stevenwaller192]

Ps there is a thing we used to do for out HO slot cars waay back. Was to burnish the commutators by running a ball point pen in the gaps. It smooths down the edge and lets the motor start easier and wears the brushes less.

[@classicmodeltrains]

Them slot car tips are plentiful. I had a hard time just keeping the stock cars on the track let alone hopping them up. Thanks for the tip!!

[@stevenwaller192]

We also learned that if everyone is running on the same transformer. You would get going as fast as you could without flying off. And then…. As your friend was neck and neck releasing your throttle and the other guy would get the extra “juice” and fly off

[@classicmodeltrains]

@@stevenwaller192 too Funny!

[@lynnmccurdythehdmmrc2561]

Wow (from your 33%'er) That was a lot of work you did. I was thinking "Just how many Athearns do I have, and do I really want to do this to every one of them?" Then seeing the end results (sigh of relief). I'll just clean and lube like I've always done. Don't cut the graphite short. It has its place, just not everywhere. Happy to hear you have heat, and thanks for curing my need for another Classic Model Train video. I was going into withdraws.

[@classicmodeltrains]

Yup, that weather slowed down production for awhile. Hoping the Little Lady is doing good :-)

[@HiVoltish]

Polishing reduced friction. Traction needs friction.

[@classicmodeltrains]

I agree. Sounded like a good idea at the time (he he)

[@UpVoltageOverclocking]

U can chuck those wheels up in a drill and use the drill like a lathe and the wheel can spin as u use the polisher

[@classicmodeltrains]

Dang good idea!!

[@PeckhamHall]

Get a Gaugemaster controller for the best loco micro pull off control, graphite grease is for large heavy machinery and is used in places normal grease gets push out like 100 tonnes of weight, plus gear polishing I don't agree with either.

[@classicmodeltrains]

Whats a Gaugemaster controller? is it a "transformer"? I'm pretty happy with my MRC Controlmaster 20. Who used any graphite grease? I didn't in this video. I used graphite powder. I wasn't really pleased with the gear polishing process myself. Just doing what the Fellers said they did back in the day :-)

[@PeckhamHall]

@classicmodeltrains it is a dc analogue speed controller, british made, been around for 50 years, still being made, my mistake about the grease thing.

[@whippy107]

That was fun to watch; the results were surprising!

[@classicmodeltrains]

Was surprising for me as well ;-)

[@mobius8002]

All of my old athearns run smooth and quiet. Never had a bad one ...yet.

[@classicmodeltrains]

Very cool!

[@josephwoehlerii2855]

One of the problems that I have encountered is that one or both flywheels will be spinning on the motor shaft under loads, so super glue them on after sanding the shaft first. Graphite is ok for coupler boxes but a super lube is better for the motor and trucks, do not lube the truck to frame ground contact area, it does better dry. The SW switchers can have loud noise that comes from the flywheels rubbing up against the shell inside, so try repositioning the motor slightly and test again or replace the motor mounts with new ones because it is less than a millimeter in clearance and you can also try sanding the inside of the shell for a little more clearance too. Great show just the same, I made a puller tool for these flywheels but it cost more to make than people are willing to pay. I learned a lot from this hobby and it is always interesting.

[@classicmodeltrains]

Sounds like some good tips there Joseph!

[@jamesemerson3414]

Hi Ron, be careful with those Athearn axle gears as they easily get hairline cracks. It doesn't take much to get them to split resulting in a lot of slip.

[@classicmodeltrains]

Copy that James!

[@paulburns3788]

Hello Ron how are you doing buddy I like your train display it looks very cool 😎 😊

[@classicmodeltrains]

Greetings Paul, I'm doing OK. Weather is going to break here tomorrow and get somewhat nice again. Thanks for the compliments on the displays :-)

[@mjamesb66]

Great video with useful information. My dad loves the athern blue box engines. He didn't do the super tune just lubed some things and his engines still pull today. 33%

[@classicmodeltrains]

Thank you for all your support!!

[@dff19707]

Ron, if you can, swap out those Athearn wheel sets from another Blue Box locomotive and try those unpolished wheels. I’d wager that those sintered wheels will provide much more traction if unpolished. I’d say the balance of your Super-Tune efforts worked. I’ve never seen a Blue Box engine roll so smoothly.

[@classicmodeltrains]

Yup, I will never polish sintered wheels again. Lessons learned in this vid for sure

[@alexbarrier9777]

Outstanding Video. I love your content on repairing model trains.

[@classicmodeltrains]

Thank you Alex!

[@startrekking359]

I know who that model is, Nancy pelosi.

[@classicmodeltrains]

So close :-)

[@danielbackley9301]

LMAO

[@startrekking359]

@@classicmodeltrains For some reasons I think of ravens when I see her name, what's this about?

[@maltnz]

You could try Labelle 134 powdered lubricant - it has a needle applicator. Also perhaps you could have tested performance after tuning but before adding weight for comparison.

[@classicmodeltrains]

All great idea's!

[@ScottTaipaleRail]

Our boiler was out last week, our house felt like an igloo.

[@classicmodeltrains]

Dang things! Just when you need them most and POOF!!!

[@silvertrain7945]

Super tuning an Athearn blue box can be a rabbit hole. I have done my fair share of tuning, but I’m still trying to find the best combination. Thanks again for another great video.

[@classicmodeltrains]

Rabbit hole....Perfect word to describe this!!

[@johnpadams8079]

3 db lower is a 100% reduction of your perceived loudness level so 5 db is really good. I didn’t think you would reduce the noise by that much really. And I like graphite grease not the liquid stile. The grease helps the graphite hang in place.

[@classicmodeltrains]

I agree with you there John

[@miketalcott5180]

Hey Ron, One suggestion: Get the sound meter out of contact with the table. I think you're getting far more noise through the table transmitting it directly to the meter than you actually hear. And the dB scale is always hard to compare to anyway. 10 db change is 2X the sound power. 73 dB is a crowded restaurant or bar, or a vacuum cleaner at 10 ft. 78 dB is a blender for your margaritas. 80 dB is the edge of hearing damage for prolonged exposure. Try using an ap on your phone held in your hand just above your meter on the table and see the difference. FWIW, my ap is showing my "silent" background noise level at 46 dB. The only thing I have going at the moment is my very quiet computer fan. Be well!

[@classicmodeltrains]

I did sound reinforcement for many years. While your statement is a good one, as long as I tested the same in both instances all I was looking for was a drop in dB. Yes twice the power to gain 3db in volume. Cost me a lot of money to get my PA to do 120dB at F.O.H. mix position (100' away). :-)

[@perryamicangelo4008]

Two things to consider, it would be fun to put a dial indicator on the flywheels and check total run-out. Plus the motor shafts are kinda short, dothey extend into the flywheels more than half way? Also take the untouched chassis and note the driveline angle, any drive shaft doesn't like steep angles. I removed the white plastic motor mounts and then set the motor with a dab of silicone,plus soldering a wire for the ground path and connect it to the headlamp mount or better yet, drill and tap a hole for the bottom connection. I also noted that the bronze clip has the contacts bent to make connections just flatten them out, there not needed now....

[@classicmodeltrains]

You make some good points there Perry. I do have to say them flywheels definitely had some run out. If I had a small hobby lathe I would have trued them up a bit. I do not believe the drive lines had too steep of an angle. I know just what your talking about.

[@henrydoes4332]

Hey Ron, i like the Blue Box engines too but they are a bit noisy. I have found that after cleaning all the gears and motor putting in plastic compatible white grease in the gear boxes and oiling all the bearings it does quiet down alot. However, If you speed them up they get noisy again and the motor must sit square on the chassis, they don't have much room with the body on and any contact with the body will cause a vibration hum. Slow is better!

[@classicmodeltrains]

Sounds pretty good to me Henry :-)

[@MozanaRN]

Thank you for posting this video Ron. It has given me many ideas on tweaking my Athearns. I will be viewing this this numerous more times. Your results in the grade performance are especially interesting. Keep up the good work and stay warm as much as possible. Sincerely, George.

[@classicmodeltrains]

Thanks George, Glad it might be of use to you in the future

[@smokencoffee7680]

I have done the rewiring since the 1980s, that is always an improvement over (SOB) Strait Outta the Box. Of course some good oil and grease never hurts on an older locomotive.

[@classicmodeltrains]

Right on!

[@donh8833]

Light ptfe oil for bearings White Lithium greese for gears AFTER breakin. I find the more you run them, the quieter they get. (Friction wears down contacting parts) Give it about an hour each direction without lube or pearl drop tooth paste.

[@classicmodeltrains]

Sounds pretty good to me Don!!

[@josephseverino674]

It my be as new as early 2000s,the ready to roll series, i just installed a digitrax decoder( hard wire) on mine,it my still be a little noisy but crawls a little better red and black to the track,orange and gray to the motor, white (f)and yellow(r) wires to the lights and blue wire common lights. Great Video 👍thats the fun part of model railroading, making old locomotives run better,maybe LOL🤣

[@classicmodeltrains]

Yup, the fixing and modifying are a blast for sure!

[@TwoRailfans]

Definitely a "super tune." Too bad the wheels don't have as much traction, but I'm sure they are conducting much better now. We have some old blue box diesels from that era that we are upgrading to DCC, but we are swapping out motors in the process.

[@classicmodeltrains]

Right on!

[@richardsweeney197]

If not the film lube, you could rub pencil lead (which is graphite) on the spots where you want it.

[@classicmodeltrains]

Yup, Ive heard of Fellers doing it that way also :-)

[@RayBoebel]

Good video Ron!! Between the weight and the wheel polish, that might be where you lost some traction. I dunno, Im not a mechanical engineer (I did stay at a Holiday inn Express last night)

[@classicmodeltrains]

Too Funny!! I use the Holiday inn express line myself. Always throws some people off :-)

[@JohnHill-qo3hb]

IMHO most of the friction comes from the bearings, if those bronze friction bearings at the four axles, the gear tower worm gear bearings and the motor shaft could be replaced with miniature ball bearing assemblies or roller bearings (that would be a stretch) that would be 14 points of friction reduced. The cost and effort to do this would be a waste though, still just to see what would happen may be worth it.

[@classicmodeltrains]

You make a good point

[@darrellnorton2208]

I would go with the axle gears slipping after you parted and polished them. Will just be spinning around the axle as soon as the load increases. Just had the same on a nos proto f3b. Sealed box but plastic on the gears had obviously deteriorated with age and lost grip on the axles. Would I be right in thinking the blue box athearn gears would fit? It all looks identical in the drive to that one you just tuned on the drive side. Only trouble living in the UK. Sourcing gears is apparently a pain in the butt for the American locos 😢

[@classicmodeltrains]

My axle gears were not slipping on the axles. The wheels were slipping on the track. I could see them as well as hear them. I hear Fellers saying Athearn gears will work in your Proto stuff. You are right .......they look identical for sure. Sorry to hear you have hard time sourcing American loco parts over there.

[@pavil58yt]

You changed everything when you added weights. Now the motor needs more current to overcome the inertia of the added weight. Too many changes for any valid results. I bet a good cleaning, which you did, and a shot of some silicon or Teflon bearing lube would have helped just as much.

[@classicmodeltrains]

Actually the loco used less amps and volts with the added weight than when I started. I was testing the "Old Time" methods of super tuning and seeing if they actually worked. My conclusion is the same as the end of your comment. A good cleaning and lube is all they really need.

[@waltergodwin5220]

Hollywood Actress: Tippi Hedren. Known for "The Birds" and "Marnie". Showing my age.😊

[@classicmodeltrains]

Yup!! I just saw "The Birds" for the first time a few months ago.

[@jacobpfeifertrains1998]

Dirty wheels and track actually give more traction believe it or not. Cleaning wheels and track make less friction so less traction

[@classicmodeltrains]

I agree

[@DavidSmith-rc7hs]

Traction tires,,,,, also has his thing been tampered with before you bought it???

[@classicmodeltrains]

Traction tires? There are no traction tires on Athearn Diesel locomotives. I do not know if its been tampered with before I owned it. It looked stock enough to me.

[@markwakeley3835]

I don't think using sort of a lapping compound on the gears would make a big difference. The plastic used is pretty slick and any minor imperfections would be smoothed out by running it.

[@classicmodeltrains]

The lapping of the gears is to expedite the normal wearing out of the gears over years of use.

[@JohnDeAlessio]

Rather than graphite you might find that molybdenum disulfide or moly ( molybdenum ) grease is a better lubricant than graphite in this particular application.

[@classicmodeltrains]

As long as the Moly is plastic safe. a lot of petroleum based lubricants are real bad for plastics. But yes I agree with you John, there are many lubes out there that would / could work better.

[@jssw3618]

O and if you decide to loctite the wheels to the gears I forgot to mention to use the NMRA Guage to insure proper spacing of the flanges.! !

[@classicmodeltrains]

Of course :-)

[@dennisbailey6067]

Have found that stripping the bogies and cleaning/ washing all gears in shellite,then scraping the centre holes to remove burrs,then oiling during assembly lessens friction.The motor can be removed and cleaned,then bearings oiled,then run for hours if necessary to bed it Also check motor shaft for too much or too little play.

[@classicmodeltrains]

Sounds like good practices to me Dennis!!

[@Hjerte_Verke]

6:33 I believe that is called "lapping the gears" and is all the rage on the slot car forums and such, where performance is paramount.

[@classicmodeltrains]

Yup, I agree

[@4everdc302]

Quieting an Athearn bluebox is like making a 6v92 not so noisy...Why😅 3 things that run after the last day.Ford300 6s,cockroachs&blue-boxes😊

[@classicmodeltrains]

LOVE your comment!! Agree 100% :-)

[@dougb5202]

Changing to a LED light from incandescent will throw off your new current and voltage readings.

[@classicmodeltrains]

Hello Doug. I was wanting to drop the voltage draw and amperage draw during this experiment.

[@christopherthompson6652]

The dynamic brake housing comes off separately, and you can hide more weights under it if that helps you any.

[@classicmodeltrains]

Thanks!

[@rp5619toy]

I have several blue box locos from the mid 90s they still run although a bit noisy but I love the buzzing motors they just keep on running I do lubricate them from time to time but those motors are meant to run like that

[@classicmodeltrains]

Yup! run till the end of time

[@Steamer96]

Even though it's more spendy, I plan on replacing all my BB motors with Kato ones.

[@classicmodeltrains]

I wouldn't mind a Kato motor or 2 to play with

[@jssw3618]

1. if gear on axle is slipping I use loctite to fix that.. 2. a brass washer(s) on the worm gear shaft between gear and brass square bearing tightens the fit and reduces significant noise.

[@classicmodeltrains]

Sounds like good ideas to me!!

[@RodneyKrachey]

my central heat and air is almost as old as yours is and I keep fixing it because I don't want a new one either. lol. in fact 2 different times I needed help and the first electrician said "I'm not touching it, I don't want to be liable."

[@classicmodeltrains]

He he!! Glad to see I'm not the only Feller out there that hates all this new fancy computer controlled major appliances with built in failure dates from the factory :-)

[@SantaFeBob]

Another video to save in the locomotive repair list. Thank you for taking the time to go through this demonstration.

[@classicmodeltrains]

Glad it was helpful Bob!

[@stevesmith-mc9hc]

I've got several Blue Box Loco's and have wondered if there was any way to tune them - your video took the guess-work out of that and saved me the trouble. Thanks for your video and all your content.

[@classicmodeltrains]

Thanks for watching Steve :-)

[@dennisbailey6067]

After you pull apart a few bogies it becomes easier.They aren't complex.

[@Kermondale]

I have a "substantial' [Athearn collection in 5 totes] in Closet ;Sad to not see them Run

[@classicmodeltrains]

No layout? perhaps a kitchen table straight away for a few hours?

[@v8vega383]

I wonder if the "bullfrog snot" would help on the incline test? I haven't used that stuff but keep seeing videos on it and curious how well it actually works. Maybe you could do a video on that?

[@classicmodeltrains]

BFS is a joke. Ive seen it applied before and its shit. Never had a problem finding the correct traction tire / o-ring for any locomotive yet. I'm an old school mechanic that has yet to see "mechanic in a bottle" work on anything. I effed up the sintered iron wheels by polishing them. Lessons learned the hard way are the best remembered :-)

[@rogerball6265]

An idea or two for you. Instead of polishing the wheels, leave them as is clean them, but not abrasively. After that use a product called no ox to enable the best contact between the wheels and the rails. I’ve used this product for years with great success. In order to polish the gear surfaces, I would run the gears with a load behind them, and in front of them for a while. One of the things I’ve always wondered about is the side friction of the casing around the round gears. Maybe that needs some polishing too. really have to commend you for All the work you did on this, makes for a very entertaining and informative video for me

[@classicmodeltrains]

Ive concluded no polishing of the sintered iron wheels. Ive got some No Ox MX3 here just for the reason you've stated. Just never tested it out yet :-/

[@RichieCat4223]

5:35 Any toothpaste has abrasive in it. Add baking soda to it if you want stronger mix.

[@classicmodeltrains]

Good tip!

[@sort187]

Your graphite is good for journal boxes i.e. needle point bearings on railcars.

[@classicmodeltrains]

Ive heard Fellers mention that

[@Gregtrainmaster]

take the clips off the top of motor wire it direct it will make difference also just add weight it will run smoother and pull more

[@classicmodeltrains]

Sounds good to me Greg!

[@whip-its_dad4239]

Great video again Mr . Ron , thank you . I guessed the girl from Alfred Hitchcock's movie where the birds pecked her eyes out and she didn't make no more movies after that cuz she didn't have no eyes ?

[@classicmodeltrains]

Thank you and I believe you've heard a bit of a rumor. There were many pictures I could have chose to show her. Some were when she was older and both them eyes are still there ;-)

[@whip-its_dad4239]

I'm so glad to hear that . Thankyou for your videos for sure .@@classicmodeltrains

[@rogermahler9686]

Ron, great video. One observation, when you were adjusting the flywheels and running the motor I could see lateral motion of the motor shaft, maybe the addition of a few extra thrust washers would smooth out the motor. Also I wonder how much the drive shafts and universal joints contribute to the noise. When you were doing your grade test with the trucks (no motor)I didn't notice gear noise so I think the gears are not the issue. I think it's possible that the flywheels not being true is the major source of your noise and obvious vibration.

[@classicmodeltrains]

Thank you Roger and I think as you do, the motor is really noisy. A upgraded can motor would really quiet this thing down. Some guys just willy nilly drill holes in the flywheels to try and balance them. You need something like a tire balancing machine but smaller to really true up them flywheels.

[@rogermahler9686]

@@classicmodeltrains Ron great learning experience for all! I'm wondering if it isn't a slightly bent motor shaft or slightly off centered hole bore in the flywheel? I also looked up graphite, it appears to be a fairly good conductor of electricity and probably not a good thing to lubricate an electric motor with. I think maybe that's why you had issues on first run before you went through with the oiler. Apparently graphite is the material most commonly used in DC motor brushes. We live and we learn, I never would have looked it up until I saw you had trouble running after the tune up. Again thanks for the great work, love your videos.

[@danielpaulson786]

Just the other day I did see a video of what looks to me like big foot pissed off about a crime scene being in his neck of the woods.whether or not it's real I dont know,but whatever it is it's big.

[@classicmodeltrains]

with the huge tree's being tossed around like twigs? I ran into that one a few days ago also.

[@Christiane069]

Graphite don't seams to be a good solution. Just oil and grease.

[@classicmodeltrains]

I agree

[@RodneyKrachey]

big foot is politically incorrect, His name is Darrel. lol

[@classicmodeltrains]

Darrel the one that likes Beef Jerky? :-)

[@raymondbuterbaugh3117]

If you have (flashing) on plastic gears. Do the mothers polish. If not, why would you throw "sand"? In any kinda gear mesh. Dry graphite ground into plastic is very slick. It's a dry lube. Want to pull more don't polish the wheels. Just clean them. Make sure the axle gear is good. Oil bearings. Remotor if its to loud. Silicone drive shafts. And if you want even more pullin power. Do like the real railroads do. Hook another loco to it.

[@classicmodeltrains]

I was following the recommended practices that the Fellers did back in the old days. This was an exploratory video to see if them techniques worked or not.

[@raymondbuterbaugh3117]

@@classicmodeltrains I know, I'm sorry if. It felt like it was directed towards you. I had an old guy 30+ years ago. Tell me the same thing about polishing the gears. I asked him. If he put sand in his car engine. To polish the crank. I was 13ish then.

[@ErickC]

5 decibels is actually quite significant. Humans generally perceive a 10dB drop as about half the volume (talking perceived volume, not voltage or watts in a sound system). I think that running it in circles for a while will probably help the gears break in a bit. About the tractive effort, I agree that the culprit was probably polishing the wheels rather than just cleaning them. I've often wondered if sanding with fine grit sandpaper perpendicular to the treads might increase traction a bit, but I don't have a locomotive disposable enough to try it on. If you really want to go to extremes, even weight distribution between the two trucks is actually very important and was one of the main problems EMD addressed with the HT-C truck. In that case, the problem was weight shifting under load since locomotives like to shift as they pull. For an example, look at a GP7 or 9 hopping around as it tries to start a long cut of cars. You'd think it was a 737 trying to get off the ground!

[@classicmodeltrains]

Thanks for the input Erick. I do know that for a 3db increase from a sound system it takes twice the wattage. Of course this is for the big azz concert systems. I agree the polishing of the sintered iron wheels killed the traction of them.

[@PapaMav]

Gears Eric? What about the gears, need to be broken in exactly?

[@magicyeti5630]

Needed this motivation for the DD-40 fleet 🤙🏽

[@classicmodeltrains]

Right on!

[@VanceCarolin]

Ron: I replace the noisy Athearn motors with a Kato can motor with hex flywheels and add the hex drive-lines. I also install the newer and narrower truck gears using Labelle light synth oil for the lube. Smoother, quieter, better creep, less current draw... ready for DCC.

[@classicmodeltrains]

Sounds pretty good to me!!

[@PapaMav]

Why spend all that much Vance?

[@ronaldoribeiro1978]

Concordo com o amigo que polir a caixa de engrenagem junto a roda cria uma leve folga, mas posta a folha de comparação para ficar bem claro os ganhos com limpeza

[@classicmodeltrains]

Todo esse trabalho extra não proporcionou ganhos melhores do que apenas uma simples limpeza e relubrificação. Eu acredito que "superajuste" era um mito

[@jimgarner5574]

Tippy Hedren

[@classicmodeltrains]

Yup!

[@PapaMav]

@@classicmodeltrains The Birds !!

[@ArcadiaJunctionHobbies]

Your quest for low friction would make the German high speed rail engineers proud! Another great and useful video. Thanks again.

[@classicmodeltrains]

Thanks for stopping by for a view!

[@ceijohn1107]

I like your videos and your C&EI gondola!

[@classicmodeltrains]

Thanks

[@nscalefun]

AWESOME!!!!! Keep up the good work.

[@classicmodeltrains]

Thank you again :-)

[@wasatchrangerailway6921]

Red Lithium makes them run quiet!!! The Red Lithium absorbs the sound!!!

[@classicmodeltrains]

Is it petroleum based? If it is, it can cause problems with the plastic parts.

[@wasatchrangerailway6921]

No, it is not petroleum based. Red Lithium is Lithium based. Lithium has nothing to do with petroleum. Also, Graphite was intended for plastics, and steel on WOOD like Pinewood Derby cars where a steel nail is supported by a wood bearing. It has zero effect on steel on steel, or brass on steel. It has a limited effect on aluminum.@@classicmodeltrains

[@Gregtrainmaster]

also bull frog snot helps with traction

[@classicmodeltrains]

BFS is a joke in my book. Never seen it applied correctly or work. Just my opinion :-)

[@jamesfitch6431]

The buzzing noise like you know is the flywheels. Try trueing them up on a lathe. Spinning them on the shaft will help trueing them will work better. Also take some endplay out of the motor by adding another washer/ spacer.

[@classicmodeltrains]

I only wished I had a hobby size lathe :-)

[@dennisbailey6067]

Yes,some are loose and some are too tight.

[@petert9749]

Enjoyed. I wonder if that modern loco is as rebuildable as the Athearn Blue-Box? A little unclear on the 'crawl' test. Could you creep from a standing start, or did the loco surge to a speed with the filmed creep achieved by turning back the throttle? In my experience the Athearn gold motors, before they heat-up, will start a train almost imperceptibly and 'climb out' as does a real loco. After the motor has heated up with a few circuits of the layout the ability realistically start is lost, replaced by surging to start. Slow speed starting is regained after cooling. Again, in my observation, if left to run (as do kids), the motors can heat to the point where the motor suddenly jerks to about 1/3 speed; presumably the magnets are weakened. The loss is permanent. In other words, the locos (as with all locos) have a duty cycle. Mum calls for lunch and the kid leaves the loco running..... I notice you disassembled the motor. It is possible you weakened the magnets. I am told most of our motors are magnetised assembled, and that removing the rotor dissipates magnetism. I don't know how 'split' magnets remagnetise??? I believe Athearn supply replacement motors of a more modern design that clip in, though I wonder if the brushes are replaceable after wearing down. Your conclusions mostly follow mine. In addition to that and to some extent in summary, these locos benefit from NSWL plated wheels, and from re-motoring. In as supplied condition they will competently power an operation-oriented layout, but the Chief Mechanical Engineer needs to know what he is doing. Could write a few more pages but that would bore the fur off everyone - and the modifications in mind shift the model from factory settings. As I keep saying (and shuddering), if anyone is planning to effect structural modifications, be careful, as the factory design was signed off by an engineer. It is on the head of the modifier. Best wishes & hope this reads OK.

[@classicmodeltrains]

Hello Peter, this is a Blue Box loco so I'm confused by your first statement. My creep speed was from a stand still, not brought back down from a run, but you make an interesting point on the heat saturated motor VS a cold one. My layout is a point to point so I have a hard time getting them "warmed up". A few Fellers have mentioned not to remove the magnets and have the same argument as you stated. I have spent quite some time on the inter web trying to find data to support that conclusion and have failed. Handling magnets do not reduce there magnetism. I believe that is a left over urban legend. I think the new clip in motors you referenced are "can motors". all sealed up and I dont think the brushes are replaceable. Its one more of them darn disposable products that are out there. I hope you and yours are well and your comment read just fine for me :-)

[@petert9749]

Thanks for your reply. The confusion is over the Conrail blue colored non Athearn Blue Box model of a GE U6million to the power of pi to the minus 1 Bo-Bo (or something) at about the 29: 30 sec mark. You answered my ‘creep speed’ question. In the film I could not find the actual start from stationary, being only able to view a second or so after. Using a pulse start (Don Hansen’s ‘Transistor Throttle With a Future’, Model Railroader June 75) my clean Athearn BlueBox locos would perform beautifully when cold and surge when warm. There does seem to be a problem with breaking the magnetic field ‘circuit’, here done by removing the rotor or by removing the magnet. Apparently ‘ringfield’ magnets complete and conserve their own circuits and as less vunarable. Weak magnets cause heat build-up which cascades into a safety problem. I’ll see what I can find for you. I do know Triang (Rovex) went to a great deal of trouble to inform the public NOT TO REMOVE magnets. I bought a loco with magnetic flux strong enough to cause cogging; my solution was to take out the magnet and put it back again. Even a second is enough. Our ‘Gold Motor’ magnets are a bit different as there are two magnets at opposite top and bottom of the case - a bit like two huntsman spiders eyeing each other off from atop and bottom of a chalk board. Usual practice with non-ringfields is to remag the motor assembled; here we might need to disassemble the motor and remag each separately????????????????? The point of the exercise is to forestall heat buildup. Darth SF kzbin.info/www/bejne/i3iah6uIed2FZqs detailed the rewinding of one of the old ‘Jet 500’ black motors. I cannot recommend as I am not an engineer and the procedure well and truly changes factory settings, but I do point it out. Also, comments early on in the presentation suggest advantageous changes to the spares situation. The best solution to upgrading these useful locos seems to be NSWL wheel replacements along with the replacement Athearn motor - especially if we can replace the brushes. Worth researching. I think you will find the following M-O-S-T interesting: Ronald Dodd (Remember that being in Britain he operates on 240 v AC) kzbin.info/www/bejne/ZnKQmX-PiJ6FrLc Mr Snooze on servicing a Hornby Dublo (later Wrenn) 8F 2-8-0 kzbin.info/www/bejne/iISTaqZmp6itrsk I wish I could have given you these ideas 'off-line', but other than Face Book, I can’t find you. Keeping things short can border on cryptic, so as usual, I hope it reads OK . Pete @@classicmodeltrains

[@classicmodeltrains]

@@petert9749 the conrail loco is an old Walthers. Back when they just offered the walthers branded locomotive as the only option. It’s drives are very spindly but it pulls like nobody’s business. It my description of all my videos is my contact information. There is a email address in there as well. [e-mail]. Thanks for the good information and some references to go and check out :-)