ATHEISM in Medieval Islam. Freethinkers of the Caliphate. Al-Razi, Rawandi, Maarri, Khayyam, Nuwas

Based on The Cambridge History of Atheism, this review examines freethinkers in medieval Islam. During the 9th to 12th centuries, not only did science thrive, but religious skepticism also flourished in the Abbasid Caliphate, particularly in Baghdad. Prominent scholars and poets of that era openly criticized religious beliefs and practices.
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#atheism #islam #ancienthistory #freethought
Check out my over videos:
History of Atheism in the Ancient World (Greece and Rome)| Tim Whitmarsh - • Is Monotheism an Anoma...
What is secularism? - • What is Secularism? 3 ...
Atheism in the USSR under Brezhnev. The Institute of Scientific Atheism. • Positive Atheism in th...
part 3 - Religion under Gorbachev. Church & State in the USSR and Putin’s Russia - • History of Soviet athe...
Bibliography / Recommended readings:
Stroumsa, S. 1999. Freethinkers of Medieval Islam: Ibn al Rawandı, Abu Bakr al Razı, and Their Impact on Islamic Thought. Leiden: Brill.
The Cambridge History of Atheism edited by Stephen Bullivant & Michael Ruse. Cambridge University Press (2021).
Stephens, Mitchell. 2014. Imagine There's No Heaven: How Atheism Helped Create the Modern World. St. Martin's Press
Whitaker, Brian. 2014. Arabs Without God: Atheism and freedom of belief in the Middle East.
AbuSulayman AbdulHamid. 2013. Apostates, Islam & Freedom of Faith. Change of Conviction VS Change of Allegiance. International Institute of Islamic Thought.
Cottee, Simon. 2015. The Apostates: When Muslims Leave Islam.
Eller Jack David. 2010. Atheism and Secularity in the Arab World. In Atheism and Secularity. Edited by Phil Zuckerman. Praeger Perspectives. Volume 2.
Shahab Ahmed, What is Islam? The Importance of Being Islamic (Princeton University Press, 2016)
Kraus, Paul. 1934. ‘Beiträge zur islamischen Ketzergeschichte: Das Kitab al zumurrud des Ibn al Rawandı’. Rivista degli studi orientali
Hecht, Jennifer Michael (2003). Doubt: A History: The Great Doubters and Their Legacy of Innovation from Socrates and Jesus to Thomas Jefferson and Emily Dickinson. Harper San Francisco.
Lamptey, Jerusha Tanner. 2014. Never Wholly Other: A Muslima Theology of Religious Pluralism. Oxford: Oxford University Press.
Al-Razi
Al-Rawandi
Abu Nuwas
Al-Maarri
Abu Isa al-Warraq
Omar Khayyam

[@religiologEng]

Thank you for your likes and support! Check out my over videos: History of Atheism in the Ancient World (Greece and Rome)| Tim Whitmarsh - kzbin.info/www/bejne/m3TNe5h4m6d1ibc Atheism in the USSR under Brezhnev. The Institute of Scientific Atheism. kzbin.info/www/bejne/nnLZq6aNrZeGbMk

[@bossdeman]

Its shocking how tolerant the world was a thousand years ago and can have polemic writings on Islam.. Now , no one would dare do that. Its fascinating. Thank you for the channel ...and good luck.

[@religiologEng]

Thank you! There are many interesting videos on the channel.

[@Omer698]

tolerance is not a good thing.

[@aminr4281]

@@Omer698tolerance to a degree of not bad! Tolerating everything is bad!

[@Crazy88277]

Yeah So intolerance is a good thing! 👍 Bring back Sharia Law and Hadud punishments. 🤦‍♀️ 🙄

[@aftabhossain264]

Yes it was the reality of Islam throughout the most of its existance. It was the religion of reason, thought, philosophy, tolerance and culture. You would be shocked to know how common homosexuality was Al-Andalus, Safavid Persia and even in Abbasid Caliphate for a time. And there was a form of homosexuality practiced in Ottoman empire too while Mughal empire and other Indian Muslim states were known for their respect towards transgender and non binary. And you look at Muslim world now. Alcohole was common and legal in all of this said societies including Timurid empire, Mamluk Sultanate and now people get punished for drinking in middle east. All of this societies were progressive in their day and age. Islam has truly been hijacked by radicalism and extremism with the rise of Salafism and the video talked about the atheist scholars of golden age, while for past 200 years we are witnessing dark ages of Islam

[@ryancounts8131]

Another fasinating video. It's very helpful that you share your reference material. Please, keep up the great work.

[@religiologEng]

thanks for the encouragement!

[@imaginationscene]

Reminder that the idea that Razi was completely against the idea of prophecy as in the islamic faith is a contested one. Its always interesting to see what sources people use when talking about him though. For anyone interested there are some different views which can be found in works such as those by Prof. Marwan Rashed and Prof. Peter Adamson the later has recently written a book focused on Razi published by Oxford University Press and another view of this type was presented in a paper by Hüseyin Güngör titled: 'Razian prophecy rationalized' in the British Journal for the History of Philosophy.

[@religiologEng]

Thank you so much for these sources. I'll need to check them out.

[@imaginationscene]

@@religiologEng Your welcome, some topics and people seem to get a lot of attention. However most only rely on a few sources and dont recognize the range of views available by critical historians. Another suggestion for you is from the Abbasid History Podcast 'EP009 Dr. Kevin Blankinship on the life and works of poet-philosopher 'heretic' Abū al-ʿAlāʾ al-Maʿarrī' its pretty interesting.

[@aq4356]

Abu Bakr ar Razi's "anti-Islamism" derives from an Ismaili source which are not very trustworthy in general, other sources state he was a Muslim. He is just famously pushed to be one because he was a famous physician and that helps people push that false idea that if you study science you cant be religious lol.

[@treymckinney5077]

I’m a communications master’s student whose main focus is the interaction of religion and media and I’ve been watching your channel since the start. It’s awesome to see other up and coming scholars put videos out their related to their work keep it up man!

[@religiologEng]

thanks for the encouragement!

[@MsKillingIt]

Thank you for this video. It was really informative, especially in highlighting the contrast in the culture around freedom of ideas in medieval Islamic world and medieval Christian Europe. However, the one criticism I have is at 26:33 where you very briefly entertain the idea that Ghazali may have led to the downfall of science in the Islamic world. So far, the main source of this argument I have encountered is a video by Neil DeGrasse Tyson, where he claimed (without any sources) that Ghazali attributed mathematics to the work of the devil or something along those lines. Thus, singlehandedly leading to the collapse of critical thinking in the Islamic world. For anyone that has read Ghazali knows that this is the most absurd characterisation of the beliefs of Ghazali, and the proceeding conclusion he then draws is equally preposterous (there were several "conservative" scholars that came before him: most notably the renowned ibn Hanbal b. 780 - he had wide influence after his death, but Islamic science continued to progress.) While Ghazali certainly was religious, what some people misinterpret from a surface reading of his work is his attack on the blind adherence to Aristotelian metaphysics (especially by those with a shallow understanding of the topic). In fact, he actually says in his work "Deliverance From Error": "Great indeed is the crime against religion by anyone who supposes that Islam is to be championed by the denial of these mathematical sciences." This actually leads to a rather more interesting broader point, that I believe al-Khalili also makes (I read his book a while back so can't remember for sure): and that is, that science was able to progress, in part *because* of Islamic doctrine and belief in God. Ghazali (again) says in "Revival of the Religious Sciences": "Study the Science of the creatures (i.e. nature), and reflect upon the artistry of the Creator." A similar sentiment is echoed by another religious figure, ibn al-Qayyim, who is reported to have said by al-Fawaid in "A Collection of Wise Sayings": "The universe is a great book, and mankind must read it to know its Creator." This theme is supplemented by the fact that the golden age of Islam was sprawling with scholars who made many mathematical and scientific discoveries as a result of trying to make their religious duties more practicable. The most famous of these examples is al-Khawarizmi's pioneering of modern algebra. This arose from his attempts to clarify Islamic inheritance laws in an increasingly complex economic world. Advancements in astronomy and navigation came from the need to find reliable ways to locate the Kaabah in Makkah, Saudi Arabia, so Muslims could orient their direction of prayer correctly in a rapidly expanding empire. A more recent example is Abdus Salam, himself, who you referenced in your video. He was a deeply religious individual and was committed to proving the Qur'anic description of the unity of God. In summary, I just wanted to quickly debunk the misconceptions that have been flying around recently regarding Ghazali (which I know you didn't support, only referenced - but still, it is so outlandish that I don't even think it is worth mentioning), but more importantly wanted to stress that the achievements of science and mathematics owes a huge debt to those that were considered "religious" and had a deep and unwavering belief in God. The key was that there was not the same aggressive conflict between science and religion that existed in medieval Christian Europe. The zeitgeist was fundamentally different in the Islamic world. Once again, thanks again for the vid. Very good work.

[@religiologEng]

agree. The phrase about Al-Gazali is not mine but from the book of Jim Al-Khalili, that some people put blame on his conservatism, and then I refute it as too simplistic explanation.

[@Expprods]

I agree Ghazali was completely misunderstood and his interpretation taken as against philosophy and science, which is total nonsense. Neil Tyson added his prejudice against Al Ghazali.

[@alanf8609]

Wish KZbin Channel's like these were the standard popular channels. Well researched, sources listed, addresses any potential bias…etc well put together! Keep up the good work (: And would love a video of Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels take or view on Atheism and how that contributed to their socio-economic system of "Marxism/Communism/Socialism".

[@religiologEng]

Much appreciated! BTW I have a video on Marx, maybe not from the perspective you've mentioned though

[@tanveerrazakalani]

Thank you, I'm glad and enjoyed the video. Those scholars were indeed challenging the way rulers of their time were attempting to use religion as a tool to legitimize their reign. Coming from the mystic sect, also known as the Batinis, I understand what they are trying to convey. For instance, what's the purpose of circumambulating the Kaaba and running between the two hills of Safa and Marwa? In mysticism, the spirit and soul possess multiple levels, and these rituals seem intended for those at a lower level of spirituality. The veil separating these levels can be quite formidable, and many who are born into that lower level may pass away without ever realizing there's a higher level beyond. However, that's okay if they full fill what they understood. I would like to study those reference you mentioned as its though provoking but i would like to read them with the context as well.

[@religiologEng]

thanks for sharing this!

[@shoibericsson5007]

Is there even meaning of life? Not just life ... what's the purpose of non livings ... what's a stone good for ? All living being should gather and u alive themselves

[@hafidhafsaadiqah5957]

Thank you for this presentation, and also for sharing your resources. Best to you always!

[@religiologEng]

My pleasure!

[@SThrillz]

Part of the problem is calling it "The golden age of Islam" and attributing the knowledge accumulation to Islam because then people look at it and say if it's because of Islam then the more "Islam" we become the more knowledge from God we can acquire disregarding the the fact that it's because of the opposite. Guess what happens when you are a Muslim who's not dogmatic but just religious enough to memorising the entire Quran, that means you have people with extremely great retentive memory. This is not of the problem I have with religion it tends to dehumanize the entire process.

[@Noamanos._.Machdes]

Freethinkers ≠ Atheists

[@CuriousCyclist]

Just discovered your channel. Really good content. Keep it up. ❤

[@religiologEng]

Welcome aboard! Many interesting videos to come.

[@maleksamman1948]

Hi @religiologEng thanks so much for the analysis! I tried to find a copy of "Freethinkers of Medieval Islam" that you shared @0:40, but it seems like each copy is quite expensive! How did you access these books without spending an arm and a leg? Thanks so much!

[@religiologEng]

Hi, reach out via email [e-mail]

[@danishkalwar5926]

Truly a masterpiece.keep producing such an engaging and insightful content in future.cheers and t c.

[@religiologEng]

Thanks for the encouragement! please share

[@HackerPULSE90]

Narrated Abu Huraira: I heard Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) saying, "Before Allah created the creations, He wrote a Book (wherein He has written): My Mercy has preceded my Anger." and that (Book) is written with Him over the Throne." Sahih al-Bukhari 7553

[@HackerPULSE90]

@@nur-azhar this is not for kafir though

[@edgardavid1653]

And how's this relevant to the video? Go somewhere else with your boring religious proselitsm.

[@kopashamsu9913]

I think Abu Huraira was one of the biggest bullshitters of the Islamic history. He alone narrated more than 5000 hadeeths (which later produced more than 500,000 narrator chains). Many of his narrations are outright non-sensical, stupid and outlandish. He allegedly "compiled" them from multiple number of distant geographic locations, separated by hundreds of miles. Lived for 75 years, became a Muslim when he was like 40yo. Although it's doubted that he never met Mohammed in person. Even Mohammed's wife accused him of bullshitting. I think he was also mentally unstable, he had strange infatuation with cats, the name "Abu Huraira" literally means "Cat dad".

[@zaidwasilbyjus4819]

​@@nur-azharcan't keep your shit filled mouth shut , can you ?

[@zaidwasilbyjus4819]

​@@kopashamsu9913you are so wrong , read a book instead of watching yt videos or googling. Loving cats is not a mental illness , I think the one with mental illness is you !

[@galemartin9155]

Oh yes I'm sharing this😊

[@peterbeater012]

Great work! the graphics in the video are beautiful, especially the architect 😍

[@religiologEng]

Glad you like it!

[@alialibay6639]

La connaissance est fondamentale pour permettre à l'esprit de grandir et comprendre toutes les nuances et les choses abstruses. Ces connaissances ouvrent les horizons pour apprécier toute la richesse que les hommes et les femmes ont crée depuis des millénaires. Merci!

[@religiologEng]

Merci!

[@sebozz2046]

Interesting

[@religiologEng]

thanks!

[@Aadil1717]

very good topic and you presented it nicely❤

[@religiologEng]

Thanks a lot 😊

[@dimitrioskalfakis]

good concise overview, a much needed exposition. it is sad to think that almost all of these wise people even today would be either murdered or marginalized and not only in islamic countries.

[@env0x]

Dude they made a statue of him

[@daraa151]

If I am not wrong many did lose their lives

[@karimmezghiche9921]

​@@daraa151 you are wrong

[@q7b663]

I forgot nuwas' name specifically when someone was debating me on the extent of Islamic tolerance within sharia law and I wanted to refer my opponent to him. truly this is a flaring example.

[@religiologEng]

great

[@mrnomad1737]

Misleading title. These scholars were not aithist but rationalist. They differ from orthodoxy in certain aspects based on their rationalist principles. The fact they wrote exegesis of relegious text using such tool illustrates their independent take.

[@religiologEng]

agree, therefore I explain in the video that none of them is real atheist is the sense we use today

[@believeinpeace]

Thanks!

[@religiologEng]

Thank you so much for supporting my work!

[@zeuz3961]

Please check this book, Islam and the critical thinking by Dr. Muhammad Shahrour. It’s interesting to mention that Abu Nuwas repented at old age and returned to Islam before he died.

[@religiologEng]

Thank you for the suggestion, but how do we know it about Abu Nuwas? what are the sources?

[@zeuz3961]

@@religiologEng So Abu Nuwas was a poet and there’s poetry he wrote asking Allah for forgiveness. Idk if you can read Arabic but I’ll post them here anyway. يا رب إن عظمت ذنوبي كثرة *** فلقد علمت بأن عفوك أعظم إن كَانَ لا يرجوك إِلا محسن *** فمن الذي يدعو ويرجو المجرم أدعوك رب كما أمرت تضرعا *** فإذا رددت يدي فمن ذا يرحم مالي إليك وسيلة إِلا الرجا *** وجميل عفوك ثم إني مسلم For what I found there are many resources mentioning his repentance including in the beginning and the end for Ibn Katheer.

[@K2dawilla]

The point is he was tolerated until he decided to repent if he indeed did repent. In today's muslim world he wouldn't survive!

[@zeuz3961]

That is very much true. Unfortunately, in the Abbasi era, they were not tolerated either, and many of the Arab philosophers were banished or accused of heresy.

[@albashir7140]

That was brilliant ❤

[@religiologEng]

Thank you! There are many interesting videos on the channel.

[@HackerPULSE90]

Waki' bin Hudus narrated that his paternal uncle Abu Razin said: "I said: 'O Messenger of Allah, where was our Lord before He created His creation?' He said: He was above the clouds, below which was air, and above which was air and water. Then He created His Throne above the water.'" Sunan Ibn Majah 182

[@mohammedayoubsamhoud3363]

Incorrect translation Beware. By the way, I am an Arab, the word air means nothing. And the word clouds does not exist. Strange that this is a fatal error in translation, did you modify it?

[@HackerPULSE90]

@@mohammedayoubsamhoud3363 you should cross check it and correct me: Grade: Hasan (Darussalam) Sunan Ibn Majah 182

[@asifniazi7605]

Thanks for the research. Muslims t9day need to learn from previous scholars. Author of "Islam in the 21st Century"

[@religiologEng]

Thank you for the comment!

[@zaidwasilbyjus4819]

learn what ?

[@jjqq4116]

we already do the atheist scholars aren't good scholars. anyone that can't free think into belief in God is worthless in this life and the next.

[@batuhanavakado8138]

I am.not sure if Omar Khayyam is an Arabic poet though. He wrote in Farsi

[@shadowborn1456]

Yes he was persian muslim

[@religiologEng]

you are right, he wasn't. In the video I call him a Persian poet.

[@AndrewJohnson-hq3di]

Muslim ?!?!,​@@shadowborn1456

[@danishkalwar5926]

Please go through the literature authored by a very renowned researcher and writer late gulam ahmad parwaiz affiliated with the institution known as tullo islam. It will help you to understand the approach of freethinkers or mutazili school of thought.regards

[@skepsislamica]

Sarah Stroumsa doubts there were any real atheist in the Arabic cultural sphere during the middle ages: "...although the abstract notion of atheism existed in medieval Islam, no individual was associated with this notion." (Freethinkers of Medieval Islam, p.130) kzbin.info/www/bejne/emKkgn-qbq-Cj68si=DFCZjEHD9ej1ZjlN

[@religiologEng]

Thank you for clarifying this! I watched your interview couple weeks ago.

[@iftakharhasan6770]

Atheism equals to freethinking? It is not free thought if you already imposed your own view on what a freethinker should think about, is it?

[@K2dawilla]

No, it is definitiely is not. However, islam and they way it is implemented in most cases is guilty of the same. So, I guess if you are in a muslim society and capable of going against it without serious repercussions like death, then we can safely argue that people are free to think in that society, don't you think?

[@almami1599]

Al Maarri was one of the greatest Arab poets and thinkers, i memorize a poem in which he is talking a fetus out of being born, and yeah he sounds like a real atheist

[@religiologEng]

thanks for sharing!

[@MrMorid]

Islam flourish by Persians, and almost all scientists , poets, writers were Persians not Arabs unfurtunately mistakenly they call them Arabs because of their names

[@fadyalqaisy]

Many with supposedly Persian last named like Al Khawarizmi are actually Arab settlers

[@laylaali5977]

Not all of them

[@WonderfulWorldview-pg3ey]

I just discovered your channel…I was always looking for those Arabs who were defying those delusional Islamic ideologies. They were just great personalities with guts to criticize the scriptures! Great research and carry on with such enlightenment 🙏

[@Cyroos]

they were not arabs. they were persians.

[@WonderfulWorldview-pg3ey]

@@Cyroos I thought some of them were Arabs?..also some people keep claiming algebra comes from Arabs.

[@Cyroos]

@@WonderfulWorldview-pg3ey Razi khayam Ravandi were persians . there are others which are not as well known. But Zakaria Razi stands out as he was a great chemist( inventer of acid sulphuric ) an astrologist philosopher and he thought koran is badly written and the content was all mundane and nonsense.

[@WonderfulWorldview-pg3ey]

@@Cyroos Persian civilization was a great one before the invaders destroyed its culture, traditions and beliefs..unfortunately the common people are not aware of the destructive impact of that cult which is long lasting and sometimes irreversible. The digital sword will continue to spread information and knowledge with the hope that the coming generations realize that archaic doctrines and ideologies impede progress and development of humanity and society…✌️🙏

[@fadyalqaisy]

@@WonderfulWorldview-pg3eyMaarri is Arab, Abu Nawas is Arab

[@user-oe8mg7ly5i]

Abu nawas ended up dead with a poem under his bed I think, it was talking about apologizing to god and asking forgivenes for what he did , these is why arabs love him, he is an example for that god will forgive you if you really asking his forgiveness and even if you done the most bad thing he will forgive you so abu nawas wasn't an nun Muslim so why he is in the video, also ibn - alrawandi is a shia and all of Muslims Don't recognizing most if not all shia as kofar(nun Muslims) because they asking from other than god so it's normal to alrawandi to become nun Muslim , it's even the same for today , most of nun Muslims is Muslim country's are shia, so yes if you try to know something about islam you go to Muslims to shia .

[@ruzhdigurra9979]

Brother- You think your lectures in english language will make any impact?! Please do something else?

[@vganad3739]

Beliefs become trapped in our minds when we get nurtured with it as kids.

[@victorien3704]

In every human society, despite how isolated they may be, there religion is found. It's in our DNA, and logically using our brains we can easily conclude there is a creator (see the proof of god by ibn sina)

[@MichaelHolshouser]

The Stillness Before Time Reflections From a Fellow Sojourner Website: thestillnessbeforetime.com Blog: thestillnessbeforetime.blogspot.com PDF: thestillnessbeforetime.com/thestillnessbeforetime.pdf

[@asadullahkhan1301]

Praises of wine and seemingly blasphemous content in the poetic traditions are not an evidence of someone's beliefs. The Arabic poetic tradition that influenced to Persian and then Urdu poetry is full of wine and seemingly sinful/ blasphemous content. Being someone familiar with Urdu poetry I know poets who praised wine but never drink it (for religious reasons). In this tradition the rule is: "if you have got a good one, say it!" No ones judges anyone's beliefs based on his/ her poetry.

[@LuisAldamiz]

"God was existance itself"? That's Pantheism and thus mystical Atheism (which I share, mind you).

[@MamaMama-sv3b]

God Allah is center of all creation whole universe is his creation

[@LuisAldamiz]

@@MamaMama-sv3b - Nonsense: you're just the divine shard that denies its own divinity because of alienation from your own internal divinity. God is everything, from the smallest to the largest, EVERYTHING!

[@MamaMama-sv3b]

Ok god is not everything we are his creation

[@LuisAldamiz]

@@MamaMama-sv3b - No. Prove your theory or shut up. God is the ultimate cause of Reality and for all we know Reality is the ultimate cause of Reality and also Reality itself. Get real, Santa Claus is a bad theory.

[@abdemouaouia8396]

​@@LuisAldamizok Hindu

[@bosbanon3452]

About the decline of science in the Muslim World, you're right that Muslim still have many intelectual center in the Persia, North Africa, Egypt, and Central Asia( why they don't have learning center in India and Anatolia?), 😅but i think you have forget that Central Asia and Persia was attacked first by the Mongol before they're sacking Baghdad 😢

[@achalsoni4769]

Most of that knowledge were came from India.

[@integer9655]

😂😂😂😂😂😂

[@achalsoni4769]

@@integer9655 Read Al khwarizmi kiddo

[@whootoo1117]

Sorry, your use of these muslim controversial intellectuals is not the dependent on primary sources. It is based on secondary and tertiary sources which is influenced by the atheism of west today. It is all western and english. Nothing is primary source or arabic/persian. These guys you mentioned had criticisms on organized sectarian phenomenons and not islam per se. They were muslims but have challenged the POV of many religious sects & groups. Even their view of Quran, God or prophets was not as you said. But it is according to quran. Like that god will not put on a person more than he can bear. The quran of Al-Razi, The religious simple man & intellectual that knows necessary situations that some rulings are lifted or have justification, the Gazzal poems about women, wine & controversial dogmas were all solved by the time. These men were religious muslims with high level of criticism towards some simple man's ideas. There is also Abu Nawas who died as a pious man later but had a phase in his life in courts of kings, princes, slave women & even unconventional relationship as his environment but wrote the most strong lines of poetry of REPENTANCE in arabic. His lines of repenting are read in mosques now as the peak of literally master piece & genuine " يا رب ان عظمت ذنوبي كثرتا لقد علمت بان عفوك اعظم " so many western academics may take these instances as unprecendented in western world but Islam became bulletproof for that reason and all of these accepted that truth but told there are other unconventional and unorganized ways to do the same religious rituals or were in a phase in their life like Abu Nawas we mentioned above.

[@religiologEng]

thank you for the comment. If you'll check Sarah Stroumsa's book you'll find multiple sources she is referring to and they have nothing to do with the modern west.

[@hemaatef556]

The info about abu nuwas is kinda Misleading yes he wasnt the most religious guy but in hes last days he did return to islam and even wrote a Poetry asking for forgiveness from allah also saying al razi was atheist is very stupid and Misleading and there is no real prove that he was atheist the only people who said he was a atheist all of them are atheist to prove that atheism is what scientist choose

[@K2dawilla]

What about the people who said he was a muslim? Are there any non-muslims in that set? Btw it shouldn't matter anyway. Who is Al Razi compared to the might of God? This shouldn't bother any muslim in the slightest. It shouldn't matter if the prophet himself was atheist.

[@hemaatef556]

@@K2dawilla read my comment bro al razi was a muslim and there is no prove that he wasnt the people who said he was atheist was atheist and they said that to make people believe that atheism is wat scientist choose and it dosent matter if he was atheist or not but its very wrong to lay about the guy just to proof ur point or make a video about it

[@Sticklemako]

It wasnt atheism in islam. It was atheism in the arabic, persian and turkic world. Islam targets hetorodox views

[@religiologEng]

there wasn't clear orthodoxy back then, so it wasn't the case yet, universally speaking

[@Sticklemako]

​@@religiologEng maybe in the interregnum there might have been a weakening of the orthodoxy, but we cant deny that islam itself isnt very open to change.. The prophets words are final after all. I do understand that some 'reformers' would find a way to massage or work around his dictats considering islamic scripture is very inconsistent in the first place.

[@EarnestApostate]

Given the etymology and the long feud, English becoming the Lingua Franka is kind of hilarious to me.

[@RichWoods23]

'Lingua franca' literally translates to 'language of the Franks', at a time when Frank was a broad term used in the eastern Mediterranean for any Western European (and the Franks themselves were originally Germanic). The medieval Eastern Mediterranean pidgin language that was named Lingua Franca was based primarily on Italian; Maghrebi Arabic had more of an influence upon it than did French. The long feud you are referring to has no relevance here.

[@kaloarepo288]

@@RichWoods23 "Franca" could also possibly in this context mean "free" - so the free language that everyone uses. But you are right western Europeans whether Italian, French, German, Spanish or English were usually referred to as "Franks" both by the Byzantines, or the Arabs or indeed even much further east in Thailand for example where westerners are referred to as "ferenghi" a word derived from "Frank." This can be compared how Greeks in ancient times even in India were called "Javana" from the Ionian coastal region which is now the coastal area of Turkey -the Greeks that eastern peoples first came in contact with.

[@user-ke6uv5rs1p]

Atheist is an atheist, it doesn’t matter what background they came from… One of Mohammed’s uncles Abu Jahil was a pagan.

[@miguelatkinson]

There is a difference between a atheist and a pagan

[@HypostaticFridge]

Razi, Ma'arri and Khayyam were not atheists by any means. Ma'arri at the closest was a Deist. Whereas Razi was straight up a believing Muslim.

[@manofwar2354]

​@@nur-azhar he is right

[@aq4356]

There was a lot of Razi's. The one who is frequently mentioned to be an atheist is Abu Bakr Ar Razi but this is false as this only comes from an Ismaili source. More credible source state he was a Muslim.

[@gecequshu]

Omar Khayam and Hafiz Shirazi both were Persian poets not Arab - so they don’t belong to classic Arab literature( poems also in Persian not Arabic !)

[@the_old_farm]

i really respect what u doing it shows that the the islamic civilization embraced freedom of thought and speech better than pervious religious societies and even better than todays liberal so called free society however id like u to to be more fair to address the counter arguments to this claims from Islamic scholars i really want to see u do fool justice to this topic

[@religiologEng]

thank you, agreed, next time will take it into consideration. Isn't Jim Al-Khalili's and Salem (Noble Prize Laureate) fair? yes, they aren't scholars of Islam, yet their opinion is important to consider too.

[@the_old_farm]

@@religiologEng well u talking about a medieval area of Islam so u should use some one like ibn Khaldun and Alghazali there is ibn Sina and al kindi however ibn Khaldun would be a good start specially that he argument is the strongest one for the existence of god u can really examine the contingency argument it will be a great content

[@Sticklemako]

Islam didn't embrace skepticism. It was certain cultures historically that allowed for it.

[@the_old_farm]

@@Sticklemako well that is just incorrect because even in the Quran in multiple places encourages questioning everything about god for example not only that but in sirrah of the prophet means the biography people from other faiths used to challenge the prophets claims if skepticism is suppressed in an Islamic it is cultures who did forbid it not the other way around the arabs were pretty resilient and hard to convince at the time pretty sure any form of jailing thoughts wouldn't help islam to Flourish

[@Sticklemako]

@@the_old_farm Show ONE place it encourages questioning Muhammed?

[@muaazsaddal]

Excuse me but Razi was not so stupid as the science worshippers gathered here. No reasoning honest being can be an atheist in so far as the question of the originator is concerned. Read Razi's exegesis of the Quran. You equate his disagreement of principle in the science of fiqh/law with outright denial of the source of such law. Reminds one of the pharisees..

[@majidbineshgar7156]

Iranian ( Persians ) are not Arabs thank you very much !

[@mohsenrezaei5965]

Khayyam , Hafez , Razi were Persian not Arab. it is not a correct attitude to known a person as Muslim just because they live in Islamic world specially for scientists and Artists. They should have books and thoughts in favor of Islam to call them Muslim thinker or muslim Poet. for example if you read Khayyam's poems, you can not feel any sense of Islam.

[@manofwar2354]

You speak r7bbish His work with avencina and messages about god show he is a muslim

[@laylaali5977]

Who said that

[@someone_else...]

What you call 'homoerotic' poetry is just sufi poetry in which traditionally the soul/self is referred to as female and God as male. The soul is yearning to become one with God. This is often depicted in romantic or even sexual imagery. Sufis also challenge the Sharia law and insist on Tariqat, ie a path to God outside of rules and limitations, or true love. It is ridiculous that we now have a academic literature in the west that is considered authority, that doesn't have even the most basic idea of what they are studying. THIS is true colonialism as explained by Edward Said.

[@religiologEng]

there are translations of his homoerotic poetry in open access, and it has nothing to do with God or soul. so, I find it hard to understand your objection.

[@someone_else...]

@@religiologEng there are a lot more books, also in open access, that explain the meaning of wine and copulation in such poetry. Don't take this as a personal attack please.

[@someone_else...]

@@religiologEng Book recommendation: My soul is a woman by Annemarie Schimmel

[@DoIT4Me]

Ar-Razi then repented and returned to Islam, and regretted his involvement in theology and philosophy, and stated in his will that he would die adhering to the belief established by the Holy Qur’an and the Sunnah of the Prophet.

[@religiologEng]

how do we know? where is it written?

[@DoIT4Me]

@@religiologEng In Islamqa.info but it’s in Arabic.

[@mozi4305]

Why in the Quran had no Word Call-- "" Muhammad "" But -- Then Why in the Quran has Muhammad"UUUN " and Muhammad"IIIN " ???? Then --- what is the Meaning of " Maaa Kaaanaaa Muhammad"UUUN " abba --- -- ?????

[@zaidwasilbyjus4819]

It's a cope line said by athiests to make them feel better about themselves

[@abdemouaouia8396]

Go learn Arabic grammar kiddo

[@yudiantobinsoedjoko1969]

You should know, a phrase like Abu Nuwas was drinking wine and said, "Let's disobey the tyrant of the heaven" wasn't real words as an aim, but metaphor or majaz. Who the tyrant of heaven, if you say he was Allaah in the true meaning, that's wrong. You can't put Allaah as an individual that stays inside heaven. But Allaah in the meaning of the Object is Oneness Object as like His name AHAD (One). Meant, there is nothing beside Him, or called Monism in philosophy. So, what Abu Nuwas said was the parable to teach people what monotheism is...

[@miguelatkinson]

So taken monotheism to it's most extreme extent?

[@religiologEng]

so, who is the "tyrant of Heavens"?

[@yudiantobinsoedjoko1969]

@@religiologEng metaphor of pagan idol

[@yudiantobinsoedjoko1969]

@@miguelatkinson there is nothing existence but God

[@upfront2375]

The title is wrong.. Islam had it's renaissance before medieval times. It's very weird but it's just the fact

[@religiologEng]

even if it's so, what it has to do with the title?

[@upfront2375]

@@religiologEng The time period which you're discussing here technically is/was the renaissance of Islamic era. It being parallel with the medieval Europe imo does not make it medieval Islam. They call this period the "golden era" so by that we shouldn't call it medieval. Thank you for the video anyway👍

[@user-xv3gl8kh2u]

In a Califate, leaders that were not Muslim and refused to become Muslim could only remain if they gave up an eye or a nose or sometimes a hand.

[@LL-dl3cw]

u mean tax

[@user-xv3gl8kh2u]

@@LL-dl3cw According to leaders like Saladin, in their own words not tax, flesh!

[@peterbeater012]

At least learn how to spell so people can take you more seriously 😒

[@user-xv3gl8kh2u]

@@peterbeater012 With a name like yours we know which brain you prefer.

[@Aksarallah]

source?

[@cenktuneygok8986]

Such things were possible only in a truly Islamic community, unlike the self proclaimed ones of today. Kuran itself clearly forbids enforcing the religion upon people, as it is against the very purpose of Islam, which is a test of hearts and wills. Yet the so called Muslims of our day will go against the word of the God, while claiming to be doing His will.

[@sohaibbhutta7223]

help me understand, why idea of rejection of a creator makes you a freethinker and intellectual? arguments for existence of a creator are far to logical and mind apealling than the arguments presented by athesists kzbin.info/www/bejne/iX3Wdp-dm82Nqq8si=6BXOUZHgWrRRgUj-

[@ChefbyMistake]

Atheism or Ilhad was famous in Islam specially when confronting Mongols. Arabs never wanted Mongols to accept Islam.

[@ZeeshanAnsari-hy5zg]

False...

[@abdemouaouia8396]

Source: My Atheist Friend said that

[@andiofski2653]

Razi was Iranian and not an Arab. So was Khayyam. They wrote in Farsi too. You can say that almost all Arabs are almost all Moslem. But not all Moslems are Arabs. Iranians were converted to Islam by force. Today, despite the Islamic Rep, Iranians are mostly atheist.

[@mobmotivation6797]

so they had a clear chip on their shoulder

[@sabrinashahab795]

They were not converted by force . Prominent Muslim scholars came from Iran including Rumi

[@andiofski2653]

@@sabrinashahab795 Firstly, Iranians were forced to become Muslims by Omar during bloody wars. Even Arabs resisted Islam. But they lost and Mohammad won the day. Secondly, how do you call Razi or Khayam a Muslim scholar when they were against it? The more Islam ruled the more it stifled science and discovery. Look at the last 200-300 years and name a few Arab or even Muslim scholars whose scholarly work contributed to sciences. In fact, Id argue that if you calculated a weighted average, you'd find almost zero contribution.

[@andiofski2653]

@@mobmotivation6797 I don't know if they had a chip on their shoulder by then as Islam was pretty much the established religion-order for hundreds of years. But it probably wasn't too difficult to figure out that like all other religions, Islam was too flawed to have come from GOD.

[@sabrinashahab795]

@@andiofski2653 He is only one and he is an Arab , not a Persian . Bagdad is not Persia . Arabs conquered the world , if they were forced to become Muslims , why did they do that and stayed Muslim. Same is true for Persians , Turks , Mughals . None of these people had slave mentality , they were conquerors who helped to propel Islams ahead . Most Iranians are not atheists .

[@bapu8984]

These atheists xmuslims heralded the so-called golden age of Islam 😢

[@HypostaticFridge]

Almost as if atheists being their typical deceitful selves trying to rewrite history

[@zaidwasilbyjus4819]

No the didn't , many of them repented in old age , there arguments were debunked , but here this man shows only one side of the argument

[@golamrabbi2778]

They all were Muslim 😂

[@Chunkymoe1233]

Refuted by the salaf

[@doomermensch5242]

Source: trust me bro

[@Chunkymoe1233]

@@doomermensch5242search up debate between abu haneefah and the atheist

[@zaidwasilbyjus4819]

​@@doomermensch5242you refuse to look up the source , copium much ?

[@loftyparagon4499]

FYI, those arguments "questions" have been answered in Islam. In dawah scene, no argument against Islam stick. The only "refutation of Islam" left is The marriage of Muhammad SAW to Aisha RA. Mainly because they don't like the answer.

[@religiologEng]

what do you mean by ""questions" that have been answered in Islam"? What questions?

[@loftyparagon4499]

@@religiologEng Claims against Islam. Like question of suffering. A deity who punish with eternal punishment. No Mathematical mistake in Quran. Pilgrimage irrational? Absurdities. etc.

[@alismaka2010]

Allahu Akbbar ❤❤❤❤❤

[@jaimimumbai]

99.99% would have been jews .the scholars..a very few muslim..

[@Talk-jn7xo]

Fr

[@Talk-jn7xo]

Yes..

[@sclsaktrc3311]

i though it was about Fakhr al-Din al-Razi, i read about his tafsir regarding Isra'illiyat. thanks for video, subscribed.

[@perorenchino2036]

99 percent were jews and PERSIAN. Don't forget the role of persians.

[@abdousalem3079]

BS. Most were Persians. Almost everyone in the video is Persian. Give me a dozen Jewish scholar with a clear contribution to science in the Abbasid era. You wouldn't come up with 2.