Atheist Debates - Gen 19 & Judges 19 - huh??

[@stephenmudry7826]

I grew up having much of the bible memorized, and I remember these stories. They are very familiar to me, but I haven't heard or thought about them in a long time. Hearing them again just has me saying WTF this is some awful shit.

[@bradzimmerman3171]

"Gawd or anything like that was not mentioned in my upbringing yeah I am lucky but have trouble realizing how awful to is to indoctrinated believers

[@RevilHermes]

Now you are older and your brain is fully wired up. Obviously the last elements of the brain that are developing are those responsible for reasonable thinking. That's why it's important to shovel that shit to children.

[@kathryngeeslin9509]

Children are shoveled these stories as if the stories are right and good and normal. They grow up hearing these things, encouraged to accept, discouraged to question, given apologetic excuses, all to the drumbeat "obey God, obey God". Imagine a little girl absorbing this from infancy, convinced she is nothing, of no value, her only purpose obedience and reproduction. Especially if she has a brother, the difference in treatment at home hammering in the message.

[@uncleanunicorn4571]

They don't read this one in Sunday school.

[@krisaaron5771]

@@uncleanunicorn4571 They justify editing their own "holy book" yet scream like stuck pigs when non-believers say the entire thing should be kept away from children! I wonder how many devout parents thought they were doing a "good" thing by taking their young children to see Mel Gibson's homoerotic porn version of the crucifixion...

[@aroemaliuged4776]

The influence that this book still has whether believing or not is incredible

[@shriggs55]

Jesus spoke about Sodom and Gomorrah as though they were real and he told his disciples that if anybody didn't welcome or receive his and the disciples message/gospel it would be worse for them than even Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment.

[@thomasridley8675]

@@shriggs55 Why do you act like the bible is the only option out there ? Jesus supposedly said this and that. How much was actually his words, probably not much. I don't think he ran around with a scribe to take down his words. But, what they claim he said makes him sound like a classic cult leader.

[@PeterGregoryKelly]

As I get older I doubt more and more that bible stories were meant to be literally believed but only told as metaphors and allegories. Only uneducated illiterate masses believed them to be true, but those who could read. Just as Aesop stories are not literally true.

[@Kanig94]

I don't care. Influencial or not, it has always been a make believe story to control and manipulate people

[@LM-jz9vh]

@@thomasridley8675 Exactly. 👍

[@ItsEricWander]

I love the fact that in Judges 20:4-5 the Levite (husband of the woman that was raped and murder) tells the isrealites a slightly different story, he forggot to mention that he was the one that gave them his wife. "So the Levite, the husband of the murdered woman, said, “I and my concubine came to Gibeah in Benjamin to spend the night. During the night the men of Gibeah came after me and surrounded the house, intending to kill me. They raped my concubine, and she died" Judges 20:4-5

[@mouthofspaghetti7817]

In the original version of this story, it is unclear if she died from being raped all night or died from being cut into twelve pieces.

[@ItsEricWander]

@@mouthofspaghetti7817 what is the original version ? I would like to read that :)

[@kathryngeeslin9509]

That irritated me a lot.

[@KyIeMcCIeIIan]

A lot of people don't realize the institute of religion tried to uphold marriage and denounce prostitution because of people selling their daughters bodies to pay debts. Religion tried to protect women by making sexual immorality such a major point.

[@stevenshumate3430]

Darkmatter2525 did a great animated video on these two stories. Well worth a view

[@Ari-rq3no]

No. Trauma alert

[@MinaOmega]

Thank you for covering this set of stories. I read this in The Chalice And The Blade back in 1999 in college and it was really the fatal nail in the heart of what was left of my Christianity. Because I am a woman, because I deserve better than to be raped and beaten to death, because I am not a second class anything. And thank you for putting that right out there.

[@ianlever7292]

What I remember most about the preachers from my childhood was about the wife being turned to salt for looking back to the town as a lesson but to second guess or question God... So you know, just another way to control people through guilt.

[@dma8657]

How horrible that the salt part was taught to you as the worst part!

[@DemstarAus]

​@@dma8657 I don't think that's what they meant, just that being what they remember.

[@Elysium_the_Bard]

My question with the whole story of Lot is this: What on earth was the alternative for Lot and his daughters? Because, as is, the story isn't that they went on to join another town or whatever, but rather the story ends with both of the daughters bearing sons (because of course they have to be sons) that eventually became the nations of the Ammonites and the Moabites. So what on earth was the "grand plan" if Lot's daughters didn't sleep with their drunk dad? The end of Lot's bloodline? I also am aware that the story has been suspected to have been an intentional hit piece against Lot and/or the two nations mentioned, but I am just going by the continuity of the story written as it is.

[@mdug7224]

The cultural etiquette of the time seems to have included high hospitality to guests. This was rooted in their trade system and had a favour-for-favour ethos. The 'moral' of the story doesn't seem so much a moral, more a threat. Follow Yhwy's law, put your guests above all else to gain reward or suffer firy decimation. I think there could be a better way to sell it but since females were just meat, it was an easy way to assemble the story.

[@PeterGregoryKelly]

The origin story of the Moabites and Ammonites was obviously a slant against those ethnicities.

[@stylis666]

@@mdug7224 The story is definitely not there to show to treat guests well. Those guests were angels, there to destroy the town because god had already found it to be beyond redemption. There's a whole story that comes before Lot's horseshittery in Genesis. The townsfolk were not punished for wanting to hump the two strangers; that was just there to show how awful those people were. I forgot and don't give a shit who god talked to before destroying the towns, but in that story some other supposedly righteous asshole was bargaining with god to maybe not kill everyone if there were some people who were good. The story of Lot was there to show that Lot was good, by showing he'd take the strangers in and by offering his virgin daughters for a gang rape to protect the stranger men, because that's so fucking moral to do. Also, the mentioning that they're virgin shows that the teller of the story considers virgin women to be more valuable to people, including to rape gangs. Anyway, OP is correct in that they were on their way to another town, and for some reason those daughters were so horny from seeing their town and mother destroyed that they just couldn't wait a couple of more days to get to the next town. The mother, by the way, didn't disobey. She was never told to not look back. She happened to overhear an angel telling Lot to not look back. The final bargain, by the way, I think was for ten people to be good and then the righteous asshole gave up bargaining and was like, ah fucking, kill them all, who cares. And god was like, I will kill them all, save for this dude and his family of super stable geniuses, except for his wife because she will overhear something and I will kill her the second she shows empathy, so only the righteous Lot who sees women as cattle and his imbecile date raping daughters will be the only ones left alive, just as planned, god is wise and god loves the uneducated.

[@kathryngeeslin9509]

From Lot's drunken point of view I'm sure he saw it that way at that moment. But they were going to another town or to settle on some land as people moved about a lot and even isolated homesteads welcomed strangers coming by. Rule of hospitality was rather rigid; read some other myths on the subject, the gods could be viciously cruel to anyone who turned a stranger away. What was necessary then would be suicidal now. But the young women would have had access to men; they were not doomed to a cave forever alone but for daddy. I saw that part of the story as simply a father using his daughters in place of his lost wife and victim-blaming after (he'd already shown his deep regard for them). Never saw Lot as such a "good" man.

[@lnsflare1]

It shoot be noted that they *were* Ina pollinated town following the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. It's just that the story skipped to them living in the wilderness for no apparent reason after that fact was already established.

[@Camerinus]

It's hard to be generous about the level of intelligence of people who accept the literal truth of these grotesque stories. The best I can come up with is "brainwashed", but those who are not willing to question this nonsense, at least privately with themselves, don't deserve such a compliment.

[@Anubis424242]

Calling it brain "washing" makes it sound like a good thing. Maybe we should call it brain dirtying.

[@amy_pieterse]

In the church I went to we would say this phrase a lot, "god is good all the time, all the time god is good." Sometimes a person would say the first half and the congregation would say the second half. If you are constantly hearing this you are programmed to think that "god is good all the time". Whenever I asked questions regarding some of the messed up stories, a lot of the times I heard "that is in the old testament" or "god works in mysterious ways" or "it is all part of God's plan".

[@kellydalstok8900]

@@Anubis424242 brainsoiling

[@JTYahemi]

@@kellydalstok8900 I like it! Brainsoiling, brilliant!

[@JTYahemi]

@God's Servant what? "Anything I learn" involves brainsoiling? Please enlighten

[@_Omega_Weapon]

We've had plenty of terrible people since this horsemanure story was written but no angels showing up to smite their cities.

[@MinaOmega]

Oh, speak the truth, fellow Omega!

[@_Omega_Weapon]

@@MinaOmega Are you an Omega for the same reason as me?🤣 I saw Wolf Moon in your playlist, greetings from another Type O Negative fan!!

[@MinaOmega]

@@_Omega_Weapon yeah. I do love their work. But I'm my omega comes from a roleplaying character.

[@brynpookc1127]

Could be women being raped or given for “men to use” was so common it wasn’t that remarkable or worth being recorded very often.

[@ingridschmid1709]

Could also explain why the rape of a male stranger would credibly be of superior and commonly shared erotic interest .

[@TheGodlessNorwegian]

Amazing that people actually believe in these crazy stories...

[@kronos-7628]

Most are unaware because they dont read this shit

[@Ari-rq3no]

That's the point. They don't. It's censored for the peasants

[@shriggs55]

It's even more amazing that they think those kind've stories show their God in a good light.

[@JeffEdlund]

@@Ari-rq3no - I agree. Today's "leaders" that spread this BS are the snake-oil salesman of modern times. Wicked and deceitful. You can't control the population (peasants) without giving them fear and doubt. Plus the peasants will then give you money for it! SMH

[@PeterGregoryKelly]

Only peasants believed the stories were true, not educated literate readers.

[@George4943]

These might well be the same oral tradition. Evolved a little differently in two areas. But I cannot imagine completing: "And the moral of the story is...".

[@jannettb7930]

I remember studying for a talk at the kingdom hall when I was about 9 years old, that included these two stories. I think it was about wickedness in end times, something that was supposed to tie into today, and I remember being so horrified and afraid. Why would they send these women out there?? Couldn't they lock the door? Oh locks weren't invented yet. Why would they throw out their daughters and girlfriends?? Well, the women chose to make that sacrifice, they were heroes. It doesn't say that, but even if it did, would that be my job now? When the wicked world came to our door, were my parents going to toss me out and go to bed? There doesn't seem to be much danger if they went to sleep and then got up and went about their business unmolested. The second seems much much worse than the first, why wasn't that town destroyed? Why did no angels save that woman? I was always told I was missing the point of god's message, but I could never see how they got any other point out of those stories.

[@jonnawyatt]

This story certainly goes towards explaining the attitude, or the "vibe" of the catholic clergy who were present in my life.

[@mega4171]

I hope you kept your distance from them

[@jonnawyatt]

@@mega4171 Well no. My grandparents were very catholic and the priests were often around for meals. At about 10yo I remember kissing the ring of the bishop in my granny's kitchen!😳 But I was lucky. Nothing happened to me by the priests.

[@kathryngeeslin9509]

Church elders in Protestant churches as well.

[@blacksterangel]

It is always amusing to watch evangelicals do mental and narrative gymnastics to justify all the immoralities of the bible. I'm not saying that every sentence in Bible is evil and it might have some good morals. But so does Mein Kampf. And yet no one is advising people, let alone create law based on Mein Kampf today.

[@normagonzalez6151]

I have been a Christian for 30 years. What you Dany about god Is wrong. Your ignorance Is very great .stop talking about what you si not know.

[@markmardon5501]

I have a question about the Lot story. Lot's daughters were engaged to two men who didn't want to leave Sodom. For some reason, the two men weren't in the crowd of young and old men even though it said all men in town. It's probably just an edit screw up on the author, but it sure does come off as a glaring mistake for an "infallible" holy book!

[@kellydalstok8900]

And also, why would men who specifically want to rape men want to rape women instead? Surely they wouldn’t be interested.

[@kathryngeeslin9509]

One of many.

[@davefields2881]

That’s an interesting point about those two men … never considered them much. I have to admit that neither of these stories make any sense to me, but I still consider the Bible to be inerrant.

[@MichaelNavarrete87]

I woke up to this video playing and I’m so glad I did. I had to make sure to rewatch it and it’s very interesting to see an atheist’s take on the Bible. I myself am a Christian man who really values a differing perspective especially in this time full of echo chambers. I hope you message back but I also know I’m a novice at KZbin comments so I probably am not even doing this right for you to be able to see it lol. Here’s hoping. I found it very surprising how accurately you told each of these stories and equally surprising how differently you see both of them. There are a couple of key things that I remember you saying that I would like to share my take on them. Gay is bad and worth destroying a town over… I’ve always seen this story that same way as well, that is until my early 20’s when I came across two passages. One, Ezekiel 16:49, that talks about Sodom’s great sins to be pride, fullness of bread and abundance of idleness (too much time on their hands). I was shocked not to see any mention of sexual perversion whatsoever. Similarly in the New Testament, the Lord Jesus comments on Sodom and Gamora and again, nothing is said about their immorality. This time going so far as to normalize the daily goings on. It was then that I learned that homosexuality was not the point of the story it was just an element of it. Their real sin was actually something else entirely I know I said I had a few things to comment on but actually this is getting a bit long for my to type out on a phone in KZbin’s tiny comment box so I’ll leave it with this for now. If you want to talk more I’d love to hear from you. I’m sure conversations with most Christian’s have proven less than profitable but I will leave it to your discretion.

[@jonerickson2358]

In my Navy days, the story would have been told with the beginning, "You all ain't gonna believe this shit!!!!!!!"

[@johnfallahee716]

Hi Matt. Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts on these two Bible passages. Here are two insights that may help make more sense of these two narratives and their relationship. First, the book of Judges closes with a summary statement Judges 21:25 "In those days there was no king in Israel; everyone did what was right in his own eyes." (Mentioned in Judges 17:6 as well) No doubt Judges 19 fits that rubric. In fact, Judges 19, opens with part of that statement, "when there was no king in Israel." What follows in that chapter is a living illustration of "everyone did what was right in his own eyes." The second inisght (you mentioned there is a lesson in the narrative) is that the connection between Judges 19 and Genesis 19 is Israel has become like Sodom and Gomorrah. I hope that helps.

[@tperson8347]

I've never taken interest in reading the bible when I was a christian, because what I heard on Sunday mornings was enough. Later as an adult, I wanted to at least TRY to read the bible .. and I couldn't. I knew what awaits within the pages. Somehow I knew it would be infuriating to say the least, and by this time in my life, the mere mentioning of "God" would raise my BP. Thank you for making these videos I get the education without the health concerns. :)

[@kippswanson]

Well what were the men wearing? And in a bad area of town? What did they expect to happen to them?

[@mega4171]

Sure blame it on the men trying to wear something risky for once. GOD FORBID

[@VaughanMcCue]

@@mega4171 They were probably preparing for a gay mardi gras; risque business indeed.

[@mouthofspaghetti7817]

Golden bicycle shorts

[@pierrec1590]

This would be the standard of morality in Bronze Age Middle East, and the origin of the Taliban culture.

[@kellydalstok8900]

The Taliban prefer raping young boys

[@ari1234a]

They often says that two of the best dystopian novels are "1984" by George Orwell and "Brave New World" by Aldous Huxley. They always do forget that modern masterpiece published 1985, "The Handmaid's Tale" by Margaret Atwood. Why the people in the Land of the Free and Home of the Brave, has to with all their might, try to make all of the three to become reality at the same time ?

[@IkarusKommt]

Because those two novels were based on the contemporary Euroatlantian world and its developments, and nothing has changed so far. The 'human rights' the West has invented are not necessary for humanity thriving, and are irrelevant.

[@CyberBeep_kenshi]

America is becoming 'the handmaid's tale' more and more. Especially now...

[@nestoreleuteriopaivabendo5415]

@@CyberBeep_kenshi I think Brazil is gonna get there first. I bet so, better saying.

[@SPL0869]

I have daughters. No fucking way I’m doing what the story of Lot says he did.

[@_Omega_Weapon]

A god wouldn't need angels to smite cities, then again a "perfect" (maximized in every conceivable way) being would have no needs in the first place, desires either for that matter. Less it wouldn't be maximized in the area it seeks to derive a particular outcome from.

[@sigmaoctantis1892]

With regard to the story in Judges, the story continues with every character, including God, acting in the most stupid manner possible. I suggest that the concluding verse of Judges, 21:25, gives the rationale for the story- "In those days there was no king in Israel: every man did that which was right in his own eyes." My proposition is that this story can be understood as political propaganda designed to support the establishment of a monarchy. The underlying meaning of the story being- you need a king because everything would be completely chaotic without a king. Even God is of little help without a king.

[@jeffsims8270]

The brutality and suffering that is described in these stories sound like something out of GAME OF THRONES.

[@stylis666]

Hang on, just a side note on the translation to "know them", that puts a whole other twist on the translation: Know thyself :p Just saying XD

[@surfk9836]

I've known myself since the age of 14.

[@PeterGregoryKelly]

Obviously one story inspired the other. That is common in the bible. Even the Matthew genealogy has the father of Joseph being Jacob, just like Joseph in Genesis. Joseph took Jesus down to Egypt just as the Joseph in Genesis went down to Egypt. The baby slaughter in Matthew by Herod was based on the baby slaughter in Exodus.

[@somersetcace1]

The amount of hoops a believer will jump through to make all of that okay is mind-boggling. I've given up being surprised by it though. I mean, if the bible clearly stating it's okay to own humans as property for life and will them to your children as an inheritance, can be swept aside simply by saying "Yeah, but they treated them good," which isn't even accurate, nothing should surprise you. The best one though is "We don't follow the OT!" Apparently it was good enough for Jesus, but not his followers. Go figure.

[@drziggyabdelmalak1439]

Thanks fot that, Matt. Very good de-construction. It also sheds light, maybe, on why over the centuries there has been this fear and disgust of 'Gay' men [I'm using that as a euphemism] as they were seen to be predators ready to pounce on ANY [passing] man. I mean, who were these guys of Sodom anyway? Were there no women in the town? If they ALL just wanted sex with other men, didn't they have enough to go round with each other? And, depending on their sexual orientation...why were they happy to suddenly just say 'OK, Lot, cheers, mate. We'll take your daughters, then instead'? Also, for a book [the Bible] that is meant to preach Love [and tell us sex before 'marriage' is a sin]...where is the love in this story? The mob want to rape the man [not take him in and have a loving relationship with him], and Lot gives his VIRGIN daughters who will also be raped and not subjected to a loving relationship. What an evil, disgusting story. Hideous from every angle!

[@michaelvout7813]

Sort of resonates with modern day Taliban Afghanistan

[@kristofftaylovoski60]

Would be more compelling biblical account with the lost verses reinserted : "Let us lay eyes upon your daughters, so we may see they are goodly unto us" The lost account of the crowd giving consideration to the offer of Lot.

[@Surfer-mh7gf]

I don't remember that segment about Lot offering his daughters to save the angels in the movie Sodam and Gomorrah.

[@hatuletoh]

The only sensible way I can read the story of Lot and the immorality of sodom and gomorrah is that it is about the sanctity of guests. In the ancient world, the importance of treating guests well in one's home--and as a guest, the importance of treating hosts well--was an extremely important principle. This is probably because there were no hotels in those days, so all travelers would be among strangers and particularly vulnerable, and welcoming a stranger into one's home, and giving them whatever help and resources they needed was considered foundational to moral behavior. Conversely, not robbing or harming a host while in their home was the guest's obligation. I might well be wrong, but I can't think any other way to make sense of story.

[@kellydalstok8900]

Offering your daughters (read: property) to be raped instead of your guests is like offering the rapists two goats or some money. The whole story doesn’t make sense, because men who specifically want to rape two men don’t want women.

[@drziggyabdelmalak1439]

Hang on.....!!!! Even if you are 'right', so the sanctity of a guest is above letting your daughter [or son if that were the case] be gang-raped by a mob? So, in terms of moral behaviour, what exactly is that teaching us?

[@DemstarAus]

"Put out the fine tableware or everyone will get raped to death" seems to be the only point I can see to this story which is just bananas to me.

[@RevilHermes]

It was terrifying to realise that i was never loved and i never loved anyone, because all i know is religious love. It's like someone would raise their kids, but tell them everything wrong - blue colour called yellow, bad called good, hate called love, doing nothing called sacrifice. Then you go out to the world as an adolescent and you are confused and all you know is beating your chest and repeating - it's my fault, it's my fault i am the piece of shit who doesn't understand wisdom of god. A nightmare that you cannot wake up from.

[@Whydoyoureadme]

I see that in my best friend, a JW member. We don't talk religion, but she always has this attitude of everything is her fault and that she isn't got enough.

[@RevilHermes]

@@Whydoyoureadme it's hard to get rid of this. My friend got a cancer now. Not from smoking, just unlucky circumstances, and she still blame herself and consider it a punishment.

[@johncampbell2926]

Why would angels need a place to stay and food and whatever else was claimed to have happened?

[@VaughanMcCue]

They might have been waiting for Walmart to open and get new blades. The mob outside knew they were a pair of angle grinders and wanted a piece of the action.

[@johncampbell2926]

@@VaughanMcCue yep they weren't worried about the mob cause them bitches got wings amarite? Repubtards r stoopie

[@rylands4289]

Like any free will argument, god knew what was in the hearts of men, and set them up to fail

[@DavoidJohnson]

I don't know how you manage to keep doing this but exposing the dreadful basis of that religion has to be done if humanity is to move to a better place.

[@stephentaylor356]

'There was Sodom...named after sodomy...and Gomorrah which was named after an even weirder sex move...'

[@mouthofspaghetti7817]

Didn't Godzilla fight a monster called Gomorrah?

[@stephentaylor356]

@@mouthofspaghetti7817 you're thinking of Gamera.

[@DemstarAus]

​@@stephentaylor356 I wanna know what doing a mothra looks like.

[@ConservativeSatanist666]

Damn.. the more I hear these stories the more it convinces me preachers don't read the Bible from beginning to end because they know it's off putting to normal people.

[@Demetrius416]

I will never worship a god like this ever again. I'm antichrist

[@theprinceofdarkness4679]

You think Judges 19 is bad Read Judges 20 It gets worse Way worse

[@ItsEricWander]

hahaha true, they tried to do justice for the murder and rape of a woman by murdering and kidnapping more women

[@CyberBeep_kenshi]

That's the bible for ye. The more you look at it, read it, think about it, the worse it gets. Every time....

[@darinb.3273]

Hmmmmm 1st answer the five Ws and H and then you'll understand why things were as they were. I haven't watched the whole video yet, however Matt is disregarding the position of Lot. The culture was to protect your guests NO MATTER the cost. 2nd this is the Old Covenant which was established absolutes (the law) and culture which changed as time passed. I would suggest that folks do more research answering the 5 Ws and the H.

[@azazelsgoat]

@@darinb.3273Good advice Darin B. yeah , do the 5W's and the H for Judges 20 too. One of the Who's is an omniscient person named Yahweh that got involved in the mess.

[@darinb.3273]

@@azazelsgoat Are you asking a question or wanting to understand some aspect of what's going on or are you trying to make a point about something?

[@torontocitizen6802]

How can anyone hold these stories up as the model by which we should live our lives? It’s insane.

[@michaelsommers2356]

Who does hold them up as models for behavior? I very much doubt that the original authors and readers did. Many if not most stories contain villains; otherwise there wouldn't be much of a story. Are we supposed to emulate Voldemort? Or Captain Ahab? Or Professor Moriarty?

[@mouthofspaghetti7817]

@@michaelsommers2356 You need better tap dance lessons; Lot was held up as a good man worth sending angels to save him.

[@michaelsommers2356]

@@mouthofspaghetti7817 Up to that time, he hadn't offered up his daughters to the mob.

[@torontocitizen6802]

@@michaelsommers2356 Is Lot not praised for protecting the angels? Is sacrificing a woman rather than letting angels defend themselves taught as a good thing?

[@michaelsommers2356]

@@torontocitizen6802 Is he? I don't remember. Could be. But if you're going to condemn the author for not living up to our standards, then you had better be prepared to be condemned by the people of the future for not living up to their standards, whatever those might be.

[@TheWasteOfTime]

IIRC the whole "take my daughters but leave my guests alone" was supposed to be some expression of the degree that was expected for hospitality. I mean it still reads absolutely fucking crazy pants, but there's that. Also I remember the Bible show that was on the History Channel & I was curious how they were gonna show that part, turned out they glossed over the whole "take my daughters" jawn and had the angels go on a ninja rampage to get Lot & his family out of town. On the other hand, the Levite and his Concubine story was one of my earlier "wait, what the fuck did I just read!?!" memories when I was doing bible study as a kid. I think the story goes that the dude was mistreating his concubine so she fled back to her father, the Levite goes to collect her but at the father's urging they stay over long and end up stuck outside when night falls in a pre-Israelite Jerusalem. A passerby is like "shit, don't sleep out here! You'll be murdered! Come to my house!" So they go with him, rinse and repeat with the Lot story and the Levite is just like "fuck it" and throws the concubine outside. She's raped presumably to death, so he takes her body back home, cuts it up & sends it to the other tribes to be like "look what happened, this can't stand!" All but I think 2 answer the call, the Israelites slaughter the people responsible, then turn on the 2 tribes who DIDN'T help them, realize they went too fart and have to "rebuild" the 2 tribes they just killed. I remember finishing it all and being like "just what the hell is the point of this story supposed to be!?!" I THINK I'm remembering right when I say the point was they shoulda asked Yahweh before doing any of that shit. But it's been a while, I could be wrong.

[@lonewulv13]

Feeling some type of oppression from some external force as I'm trying to sleep- out of desperation I dug out my Bible and decided to start reciting the scripture (I'm really not a Christian and have only read certain parts). Well what do you know what random passage I just so happened to land on... This is the most twisted shit I have ever read. Why would they even bother adding this? Back in the box the book goes. Absolutely no comfort to be derived.

[@Mia-ep4zu]

Thank you Matt!

[@glenhill9884]

These are just more examples of a faulty god, who supposedly created beings that didn't do his moral thing. Wait, you might say. They had free will to do those things, so it's not God's fault. But who gave them the free will? And if God was omniscient he knew this was going to happen anyway. So he had no reason to punish people except to be a masochist and sadist. Nice deity you got there.

[@Wolf-ln1ml]

The "free will" thing fails on so many levels anyway. I allegedly have free will according to them - but I also have zero interest in killing or raping anyone. So "creating" humans that don't have any such desires doesn't violate their free will. Yet this god did create them for whatever reason - and blames them for those desires.

[@DemstarAus]

​@@Wolf-ln1ml And if you add in that we were created in god's image, those desires seem to add some interesting flavours to the stockpot of god's personality.

[@OnASeasideMission]

Nice. Makes an interesting comment on anyone who continues to regard this compilation of horror stories as unquestionable fact.

[@samalthus]

I’ve wondered at times if the story of Lot was a just-so story. Lot’s wife was turned to salt, does that imply everyone in Sodom & Gomorrah was turned to salt, and that is why the Desd Sea is so salty?

[@VaughanMcCue]

Now we know what it means when someone is the salt of the earth. Mr Condiment; Lot, even expected his girls to get asallted. Thanks for your interest and contribution; I couldn't stop myself.

[@pansepot1490]

The story of Lot as it appears in the Bible is in all likelihood a composite of different older stories: the destruction of Sodoma, the “problematic ancestry” of a couple of rival tribes, and a just-so story that explains some pillar-like geological features on the shore of the dead sea. The motif of getting doomed for turning back is also present, probably borrowed from, in Greek mythology. See Orpheus and Eurydice.

[@azazelsgoat]

Christian apologists often say there are no heroes in this tale, that it reflects bad human behaviour and no negative reflection on Yahweh's character. But in Judges 20 Yahweh got involved by saying Judah should go in battle against Benjamin, knowing that it would lead to horrible bloodshed on both sides. It seems that Yahweh is as morally repugnant as the human characters in this myth.

[@kevinshort3943]

It's another example of how little value the writers of the Bible put on women.

[@reasonablespeculation3893]

OR it shows how highly regarded, hospitality toward strangers was. Daughters were the responsibility of their father. A young virgin daughter was VERY valuable, as a way of merging families (for developing financial status, allies, and continuing the Blood line). None of this comports with our modern sensibilities. Could be we're missing some element of the story

[@jaclo3112]

And thr reason it doesn't comport with our sensibilities is because it is morally depraved for the value of a woman to be determined by whether or not a penis has been inside her vagina and to use her as property so as to be a bargaining chip for tribal, political and financial reasons.

[@Cat-Down-The-Road]

Thank you, Matt for coming to bat for me, but in the words of Pastor Joel, "I'm not here to condemn anybody." "We're not here with a sad song, We're here with a song of praise!" Praise to whom, exactly? God only knows... Lol 😆

[@KLanio-lr8yv]

The maker of that bronce age flashbang?

[@Truth-Be-Told-USA]

It is interesting that God's word was written outside of the presence of jesus and not directly by jesus either. No one really mentions this to the point of questioning it.

[@pauligrossinoz]

To my way of thinking, the complete absence of any books written by the New Testament's protagonist - Jesus himself - is it's most fundamental flaw. We are all supposed to believe that the all-powerful Jesus-god left the dissemination of the most important message from a god to all mankind to a bunch of illiterate dudes on the edge of the Roman Empire while Jesus himself ran away to heaven. It just makes no sense.

[@omg_look_behind_you]

it's a good thing that most Christians don't actually read their Bibles, other words this might actually be what comes next. I feel like just as Daniel Dennet says it's probably best to not inform everyone of the lack of free will, this could be much worse if pointed out to believers that the evils we see in the Bible lest we start seeing our neighbors stoning to death their disobedient daughters.

[@dilly2000]

Maybe, just maybe….. what if they are correct ?

[@tripolarmdisorder7696]

Sweet Zombie Jeebus! What could possibly be the lesson from Judges 19?

[@KLanio-lr8yv]

Without day after pill, you need to keep a sharp knife at hand?

[@Ari-rq3no]

@@KLanio-lr8yv How to make a concubine burger?

[@tripolarmdisorder7696]

You are both twisted, I love it.

[@KLanio-lr8yv]

@@Ari-rq3no he did not eat her.. He use the leftovers. For advertisment

[@KLanio-lr8yv]

@@tripolarmdisorder7696 *bows*

[@shriggs55]

"The eyes of the Lord are everywhere watching the evil and the good." (Prov.15:3) ??? " The Lord is a refuge in times of trouble."???? (Psalms 9:9)

[@bodan1196]

Is it not more that these stories warn you about taking in strangers? If we speculate about Lot not meeting the angels, who then slept on the streets, what would the angels have done, facing a group of men and women demanding their submission to the local laws of sodomy? What does religious people do when someone don't follow their local laws? The amount of special pleeding and exeptions in all religions, which more often than not argue for a paradoxical common "heavenly law", is what really repells my understanding.

[@jipersson]

In the most recent Danish bible they added a sentence to Judges 19, when the man comes out and finds his sex slave on the doorstep and tells the now "defiled" sex slave to get up, they added "but she didn't get up because she were dead"!

[@Aleesb]

I was always told the issue probably for the people of the era (besides the homosexuality I guess) was the violation of the guest right, which usually was a big deal in pre-modern cultures

[@kellydalstok8900]

And the daughters were just property. Offering them up equated to giving the mob money of a couple of goats.

[@Aleesb]

@@kellydalstok8900 I mean they definitely weren’t valued highly, but I think it’s more to show lot was supposedly righteous by giving his own daughters to protect guests as the host

[@SolemnlySquid]

I wonder if America 2022, is what ye olde preachers and bishops were worried about when the Bible was only written and read in Latin.

[@joykeebler1916]

The concubine: is in reference: to the mal-treatment of women: and - is meant: to be offensive - for that 'reason.'

[@RevilHermes]

Hey Matt, a bit different question. You had a heath issues. How did you manage to stay positive. Have you been afraid? My friend got a cancer and i would like cheer her up.

[@BrianBattles]

Ever since I was a kid and first read a bible (at a friend's house; my parents didn't believe in any of that nonsense), I was astounded at the horrific creepiness in it, and have always been stunned that people think the bible is a "good book" and living according to biblical rules could somehow be a good thing! It's illogical, inconsistent, twisted, terrible and perverted, clearly written by some very sick men.

[@glennmaillard9076]

The whole Sodomite tale is a tale that keeps giving. Certainly prompts lots of questions. Something that interests me about the tale is the ‘Angels’ aspect. The ‘Messengers’. Questions have arisen for me. 1. Are they male? 2. Are they female? 3. Are they gender neutral? Whatever the case, do they look male? Do they look female? My impression - and that’s all it is - is they looked male. What was it about them that the men of Sodom found so damn attractive? 🤔

[@patriklindholm7576]

Female judges of the supreme court obviously find this perfectly in order.

[@colinellicott9737]

The SCOTUS members who swore their oath to the constitution with their hand on the bible - contravening the explicit statement in the constitution that no religious oath shall be required for any public office - should all be impeached and removed from office for this heinous display of hypocricy.

[@cronistamundano8189]

So two Angels come from "up there" and must spend the night indoors because they are uncomfortable or afraid?

[@joykeebler1916]

The record: of the 'reprobation' - within - human existence: under the providence: within - 'the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.'

[@joykeebler1916]

'As' harrowing - 'as' the stories are: Genesis 19: 'as' - the written 'ensample.'.. Judges 19: 'as in the days of Noah and time of Lot....'

[@funkatron101]

If you haven't done so already, could you please tackle Numbers 5:20-22 in relation to pro-life evangelicals?

[@jen6110]

It's true that Christians do not know their Bible, those who have left the faith are the ones who really knows the Bible, like Mat and all them other deconverters. I became a Christian in the early eighties, I'm sixty four years old now, but around three years ago I've started questioning a lot of things relating to God, Christians, the Bible, pastors, church etc. Even now as a Christian i would say to my friends that the biggest liers, thiefs and hypocrite are Christians and pastors. Now that I'm hearing and seeing the truth I'm slowly starting to deconvert. I've learned more about the Bible from Mat and other atheists than I've learned from these lying, hypocrite pastors all these years. I'm amazed to see how these pastors will pick and choose from the Bible what they want to tell their congregation. They know how to take the bad and make it looks good just because they know a lot of Christians do not know their bible the way they should, like myself lol, but now I do thanks to my true pastors like Mat and all the other deconverters out there. OMG!! I didn't know all that was in the Bible, I knew about the one with Lot and his daughters but not the other one, shocking... Funny, I don't remember ever hearing that gruesome disgusting story preached when I was going to church, and so many more, I wonder why!! I believe a lot of pastors truly believe what these atheist are saying is the truth, where the Bible is concern, that's why they pick and choose what to preach to their congregation.

[@MrBugPop]

I got nothin. Talk about 1 step forward and countless steps back Matt.

[@joykeebler1916]

It is always good to read.

[@FerrariKing]

That Lot story just shows hos little they thought of women. When I went to church the preachers would bad mouth their mother in laws and call women heifers and other nasty things.

[@kublakhan1334]

Lot offered the crowd his two daughters instead ??!! WTF 🤬 !!!

[@Oldmaster51]

This video lead to this question. Are all of the stories in the Bible about men etc Ruth of course who are part of Jesus’s lineage or had some connection to Jesus? If so doesn’t stories like these shed a pretty horrible light on Jesus’s peeps?

[@roybarrows9733]

I don't come away from these stories with the same "message" Matt does. It seems to me that the stories in their entirety reflect contemptible behavior all around, at least on the part of the male figures. One might just as well come away with the message, "This is what happens when too much power is bestowed upon one group of people" in this case, men. However, I'm not sure that there even is a moral to the story in either case.

[@paullynch6945]

Horrific fable. As horrific as the great leap backwards, occurring in US at present. Same lack of respect for women's right to have control over their own bodies.

[@holgerlubotzki3469]

I think the salient point of the story of Lot is that an all knowing god who is purportedly the arbiter of human morality and who knew Lot's character, deemed him to be the only good and righteous man in all of Sodom and Gomorrah.

[@michaelsommers2356]

Well, he did offer hospitality to the angels.

[@holgerlubotzki3469]

@@michaelsommers2356 Speaking of which... I had no idea that angels actually needed to sleep.

[@mouthofspaghetti7817]

What about all the babies, little kids and innocent animals killed in those towns? The god of the bible is a sick tyrant.

[@michaelsommers2356]

@@holgerlubotzki3469 Of course they do. It's hard work dancing on the head of a pin.

[@francmittelo6731]

Homosexuality must have been rampant in those communities during those times, for them to make up laws against it. Correct me if I am wrong, it seems to me like Abrahamic religions were the only cultures that were against homosexuality. I have yet to hear about non-Abrahamic cultures being officially against homosexuality, before they came to contact with Abrahamic religions.

[@WaskiSquirrel]

I've wondered, reading these two stories, was gang "knowing" of male visitors to a town a common thing back then?

[@shriggs55]

One of the things that is tragic about this story is when "God" did, not just burn to death the men,but also the women,pregnant women, and children.

[@kennethwebb2081]

@@shriggs55 and kittens and puppies

[@mrwallace1059]

At NO point in Judges does it say the concubine was "dead" at the door! So does that mean she was cut up while still alive?

[@dod-do-or-dont]

3:22 i know one character like that, his name is Jahwe, and he is "god" in some piece of sh.t book

[@lyni50]

Welcome to Gilead. 😡

[@joerdim]

I can imagine lots of medieval fathers who would have done that.

[@joykeebler1916]

Lot - acted out of fear: he should have 'never': offered his daughters up.

[@lissam8988]

To me, it almost sounds like human trafficking every time I read that story in both. I think of human trafficking. When you read real-life stories of what women go through in human trafficking... it has similarities. Yes, I understand that men are also human trafficked. Human trafficking typically does not have prejudiced in it they go for all all nationalities colors religion you name it

[@nagilumsnangilima]

Regarding Lot's wife being dead. Not so much. All we know is that she was turned into a pillar of salt. We don't know what happens afterwards. For all we know, she might have been turned back into a human.

[@DemstarAus]

For all we know she could have turned into a unicorn, flown away, and retired with the rest of the fantasy creatures.

[@danielgibson8799]

Neither account is factual, but represents storytelling. judges (622 BCE) tells its tale as a reason to justify the reign of josiah in jerusalem. Genesis (550 BCE) tells its tale to justify the pursuit of statelessness post-exile.

[@gaagsl]

What was the point in sending the pieces?

[@GodlessHumanist]

I was wondering the same thing! I was like, WTF?! I was raised Catholic, and later was received into the Episcopal Church before leaving Christianity behind, and I can't remember this story ever being read in Church! Imagine after the reading of this story the Lector says: "The Word of the Lord" - and the parishioners respond: "Thanks be to God!"

[@photobobo]

Maybe it is time for freedom of religion to come to an end.

[@jamok3]

The thumbs down ratio needs to be visible again.

[@whyspoppabear]

Perhaps they were "Charlies Angels" That would explain the wantonness

[@philipinchina]

We know what they did in Sodom. What did they do in Gomorrah?

[@Hoganply]

I'm not necessarily 'pro-life', but I don't think it's charitable to say that criticisms to claims related to women's bodily autonomy are more to do with their lack of respect for women than is is to do with their obsession with that of foetuses, which even the bible doesn't share.

[@rippedtorn2310]

by definition the lack the necessary respect .

[@blueredingreen]

If you respect the bodily autonomy of women, you're going to have a really hard time being pro-life. It probably doesn't help that the women whose bodily autonomy who need to be respected are generally sex-positive women who don't want children. So a lot of Christians will firstly say those women are sinful, and secondly they'll dismiss anything the women say in favour of simply asserting that they actually want children, and having children is the thing that would actually give their life purpose and happiness, as if everyone wants the same things in life.

[@stramster1]

I don't think The Bible promotes Lot as a moral person but as one that is righteous to the law. Abraham pleads God to spare Sodom for the sake of "righteous people" in Gen 19. I think Lots actions are true to rabbinical law though no less disgusting.

[@atheistphilosopher3469]

My fundamentalist brother would tell you your taking these stories out of context. And that God is good!

[@azazelsgoat]

Judges 20 shows you how "good" god is.

[@KLanio-lr8yv]

So the alien lang party had a flash bang?....

[@MetallicAAlabamA]

These are really screwed up stories. And if the message is to do whatever it takes to protect anything that is from God's realm or whatever. That is just another reason to NOT give this sicko named Yaweah any credit. But I gotta hand it to Darkmatter2525 and his Bible cartoons (God and Jeffrey) that is about both stories. God called the first one a prequel. He does an amazing job with his animation bits, and his artwork narrations. I hope all of you great people have a safe 4th, though I wished we were celebrating a secular government, and no dogma with our government sandwich. I have no doubt that one day, religion will be an afterthought for the most part. I just hope that we are not waiting and fighting until it does, but that's wishful thinking. But I know truth and humility towards our fellow human beings has to prevail, it has too. Thanks for all you great heathens do!

[@no_sht_sherlock4663]

I was Like number 777!! Play The Lotto 🤘🤘

[@thinkneothink3055]

The most terrible ideas about the way one person should treat another came directly from the mouth of the Christian God. How about that? P.S. God is love!