Atheist Debates - MAILBAG - August 2024

A handful of questions on:
Spirits
Booking discussions with me
Taxation as theft?

[@MisterG2323]

Had a high school friend, now deceased RIP, who loved to proclaim taxation is theft. He was a Navy vet, but never could explain how his miltary wage, paid by government via taxation, wasn't theft. And so it goes.

[@thedave1771]

Sounds to me like he was stealing from the government (and therefore, stealing from the people), based on extending his own logic. RIP. And respect to him for serving, genuinely.

[@finestPlugins]

The only thing that I'd argue is theft, is land ownership.

[@ΘάνατοςΧορτοφάγος]

Thats the only theft you can think of? ​@@finestPlugins

[@realGBx64]

Well just because you benefit from theft it is still theft. I would argue that yes, taxation is theft and theft is bad. But being invaded by a foreign country is worse, so it is not immoral for the government to steal to avoid that. And the same goes for fire stations, some parts of health care, arguably parts of education, etc. i am not that sure about roads though. Subsidizing the least efficient mode of transportation for the richer half of the country? Immoral to finance from theft.

[@finestPlugins]

@@realGBx64 This assumes that you'd still earn or own the same amount of money without the services provided through taxation. And that's just blatantly wrong.

[@toughenupfluffy7294]

Matt, you have been an inspiration to me since a long time ago! Thanks for all you do, you are a true hero!

[@karenbrown938]

I really enjoy your shows Matt. It’s so refreshing to listen to someone as intelligent and articulate as you.

[@laurajarrell6187]

Excellent Matt! I totally agree with you on taxation. 👍🏼🌊💙💙💙🌊🥰✌🏼

[@Marcus_Caius]

I second that. Everytime someone say "Tax is theft", I wondering what they do for a living. They certainly not in the trade business. Are they uneducated or poorly educated?

[@RobBrens]

Once the libertarian guy brought up bodily autonomy, straight away all I could think was "ah god here comes the tax is theft routine"

[@Leith_Crowther]

Maybe he should move somewhere that doesn’t tax people. Those places do exist.

[@huguesdepayens807]

@@RobBrens How is it not objectively theft though? And the "social contract" won't cut it.

[@markevans8206]

@@huguesdepayens807But somehow benefiting from the infrastructure built by society without contributing is NOT stealing? This society is your tribe. And as far as tribes go, it offers a lot of freedoms though regressives take them away.

[@Xbob42]

@@huguesdepayens807 You benefit from society, and society benefits from you. If that's what theft is to you, you must be incredibly selfish.

[@DataJack]

Perfectly stated response to the clownish "taxation is theft", Matt.

[@markderamo9229]

So you’re another government worshipper, eh?

[@boogit9979]

Dude lives in Canada too. He directly benefits from snow crews and healthcare via taxes

[@PortlandMan]

Been watching Matt since 2014 and it's crazy how fast he has aged in that time

[@Dusios]

It's all the wizard levels he's been gaining.

[@JoeBManco]

I have never had any issues with taxes because they pay for the services I use. To me it is no different than paying for utilities. Without taxes the world I know would be chaos.

[@thedave1771]

Funny how people who complain about taxation being theft still use the shared resources we all chipped in to pay for (e.g. roads).

[@SNORKYMEDIA]

Being from the UK I can never understand why people in the US are happy to co-pay for police and Fire services etc yet think everyone paying in to get "FREE" healthcare is communism!!!!!!

[@bobspeigel9455]

your beard and mustache merging as they do, respect... but I hate having whiskers makes my face feel itchy :)

[@zorryduschmojang1040]

You don't get more money in your pocket if you get rid of taxes. When the companies know you have more money. Foods and other things will cost more and you will have the same amount of money. It will balance.

[@finestPlugins]

Taxes also pay for "civilisation". Imagine there was no contractual law and no way to enforce it either.

[@uninspired3583]

Road tolls and tuition costs would bankrupt people without taxes. Ready to pay 15k per year per kid to go to school? Road building costs billions.

[@lexter8379]

Not only that, the same people who want to cut taxes want the government to have balance budget so it has to also cut social spending. For a government to have a surplus from taxes, it has to literary take in aggregate more from the society then it puts in. This prompts private banks to create money and bring about large amount of private debt that soon causes a bubble and you get the Great depression...

[@uninspired3583]

@lexter8379 I follow except for the private banks piece, I don't think they create money, that's a government role is it not?

[@finestPlugins]

@@uninspired3583 They certainly create money. How much they can lend us a multiplier of their assets. The more they have, the more they can lend. That effectively adds money into circulation. And their assets include the customer's money on their accounts.

[@bodan1196]

On lists over the most "happy" citizens, the Nordic countries are often amongst the top ten. The same countries are also in the top ten on lists over the most unbothered about being none-religious. Thus a correlation is often mentioned; hinting that zealous religion makes peope unhappy. While plainly observable to the open mind; that being told that you are nothing when not forcing a belief in something that can not be proven (this side of life), leads to an unhappy human, this, when it comes to the happines in the Nordic countries, might be a cause, not just a correlation; but I must suggest that it is not _the_ cause. Of much more importance, I think, would be the understanding of what taxes actually are. And what they are, Matt in this video, described as good as I have ever heard them be.

[@VivisSymphony]

I'd argue taxation is only theft if the money is spent unethically. Personal purchases, business expenses, any time taxes aren't being reinvested into the community that paid them I would say it's akin to theft, even if it's not illegal in certain scenarios. Taxation pays for our roads, parks, schools, social security programs, etc, and in my opinion if it goes into things that we don't need or that we don't need to be pouring so much money into, then and only then would I compare it to theft. As a secular humanist I don't think I need to spell out exactly what I'd consider as unnecessary, but anything that doesn't improve the general health and happiness of the community is at best unethical and at worst theft in my book.

[@daveydumpling]

Matt reacts! Yes please 👍👍

[@kappasphere]

Taxes aren't forced labor because if you don't do labor, you don't have to pay taxes. What *does* force you into labor is to throw them into a world where they have to work to live. This is the natural state of things, and to change that would need a welfare state that keeps its people alive even when some of them don't want forced labor.

[@Lucifer_the_cat]

Matt thank you brotha

[@digitalspecter]

Most people easily grasp how with insurance system some people contribute more and some get more compensation, based often on random occurrences.. but somehow it's harder to understand when it comes to taxes. smh

[@gray5105]

i’d love for you and professor dave to collabbbbb

[@feroxcious]

libertarians worship property rights... except when the "person" owning that property happens to be a large land owning corporation (a country). but if given half a chance a libertarian would force their renters to obey the rules on their property and to pay their dues. they just dislike that all the land is taken already and they are the ones who have to pay rent (property taxes are essentially a type of rent)

[@justinwolz4932]

Matt, I really appreciated your response to taxation = theft. I have long thought it a lame and self-absorbed view. Something that occurred to me. A common satirical framing from atheists (I am one) is the idea that Jesus will save us from the thing he will do to us if we do not accept and/or worship him. The analog of paying taxes or going to jail could be framed similarly. Jesus gave us life and saved us from his judgement, so we owe him. Society gave us life/services/opportunities and saved us from their judgement (jail) so we owe it (taxes). Does this mean we atheists should not use this framing device against Christians? It does all go away when you just set the frame as, I have no reason to believe Jesus/God exists so anything further is not worth the time.

[@goldminer5761]

I shared a house with 3 other people while I worked as an contractor - I didnt know these people until I lived in the house & we 3 were the ONLY people living in the house. To cut a long story short , all 3 of us experienced strange goings on in the house: doors slamming or no reason when all 3 were sitting watching TV , many occasions of sounds of someone running up the stairs when each of was alone in the house ( the other 2 were at work or something ) , or sometimes even when again all 3 would be together in the lounge ; all 3 of us heard people talking & laughter , creaking floorboards as if someone was walking around upstairs while all 3 again were together downstairs, TV's & kettles switching on for no reason ! For clarity , the house was detached , nearest neighbour was 200 yards away. This was during early summer so no heaters or plumbing to blame. We later discovered that the owners husband had died in the house after we mentioned these weird events to the landlady. She also told us the previous occupants , a family , had left in a hurry for those exact reasons! But in fairness , have to say none of us actually saw anything apparitions etc .

[@TenableVegan]

Not all taxation is fair. Animal agriculture gets huge subsidies from the government via our taxes yet I don't consume any animal products & am totally against it on ethical grounds so I obviously don't want my tax money going to funding it.

[@ΘάνατοςΧορτοφάγος]

Vegan ftw. Agreed, its not always fair. Similar to fossil fuel subsidies

[@ryonalionthunder]

So what? Taxes aren’t meant to just for stuff that you personally consume. I don’t care about the Washington Monument, but tax money still goes to upkeep for it. Hell, tax money goes to senseless wars. You still aren’t allowed to stop paying them. XD

[@blueredingreen]

@@ryonalionthunder We can't just choose to stop paying taxes, but we can (and should) appeal to our politicians to tell them to stop wasting tax money on bad or pointless things, and to spend money on better things.

[@HallyVee]

Why would you need to benefit specifically? Don't you benefit from everyone around you being healthy? Why would your specific ethical objection bear here?

[@Craxin01]

I’ve yet to meet an intellectually honest Libertarian. Their arguments are almost always logical fallacies, post hoc rationalizations, or ideological nonsense that shatters at the slightest exposure to reality. I recommend a book called A Libertarian Walks Into a Bear. Really insightful look into what happens when rigid ideology comes up against cold, uncaring reality.

[@Jason_P]

Wow... That last one seemed like it was you TRYING to not just rip into the person for being grossly nonsensical. Well done.

[@EmperorMegas]

Second!

[@adidelapatru8996]

if ghosts and spirits exist how come no ghost hunting show never went to Auschwitz or any other concentration camp?

[@steveferguson698]

I'm tired of hearing politicians lie about cutting taxes in an election year. I mean for the average tax payer. Not talking about the billionaires that Trump cozies up to. I would much rather hear "I'm not cutting taxes because we need better........" I am however opposed to a Church not having to pay taxes... because... they're a church!

[@loki6626]

A libertarian walks into a bear...

[@Khantia]

Matt, I don't know if you'll read this comment, but I was wondering. What did you believe when you were a Christian? Surely you had seen the passages about slavery and other such monstrosities. So I just wonder, how did you defend god's actions in your mind back then?

[@russellward4624]

I think he's said he made some of the same excuses Christians make, but in my experience Christians cherry pick which parts they read. They always spend most of thier time on the happy nice stuff in the new testament and ignore all the chapters on the rules where the slavery stuff resides.

[@melicahdavid]

🤔

[@Evolushaun]

15th viewer hehe

[@simonwinwood]

lucky trickster

[@TymeTaylor]

Also...taxes aren't compulsory, insofar as one could simply not work and as such pay no taxes. Taxes are the fee imposed for access to our consumer/labor markets, and provide for the general well-being of everyone.

[@chuckpershall9762]

Cooperation isn’t done in the form of coercion. What a nonsense argument.

[@lexter8379]

Its nice to hear you are not a right liberterian! Indeed I find myself confused with their ideology as it presumes that violence is something only the state does and private actors who do violence somehow break the definition of liberterian society. They forget that state came about from non-state societies where violence ruled the land. Violance is necessary part of politics, the difference is simply who wields the power over that violaance. For some reason the right liberterians are convinced that democratic state is worse in wielding the violence then perhaps smaller state with larger private sector. Their whole ideology is based on flawed understanding of basic political concepts, redefining terms and creating a populistic narrative.

[@robertmiller9735]

From what I've seen, benefiting without contributing is a major conservative social ideal (and yes, libertarians are conservatives; their rhetoric is belied by their actions, always). Those who manage to become grand parasites are greatly admired-I believe a lot of Trump's popularity comes from this.

[@al4nmcintyre]

Imagine making this much effort to hijack the abortion issue to whinge about "taxes r theft tho."

[@JRRTokeKing]

Hell ya

[@andy2950]

The tax is theft debate is a vintage and simplistic trope. It predates the Ayn Rand fandom by centuries. Tax is the price we pay for living in a civilised society.

[@LukeSumIpsePatremTe]

Not sure that's the case, for two reasons. Not sure how civilized we are - and secondly, there are taxes to pay in dictatorships too.

[@Zirrad1]

How about calling it a membership fee?

[@Johnboy33545]

@@LukeSumIpsePatremTe We are in almost every measurable way better as a society than we were 50 or 100 years ago. We aren't a dictatorship.

[@Johnboy33545]

Precisely.

[@inaneglory7431]

My brother doesn't have kids and he endlessly complains about having to pay school taxes. He does this even though he greatly benefits from the community wide effects schools provide. Unsurprisingly, he's a libertarian. 😮

[@smartbart80]

Tell him he’s a burden on the system until he makes at least one child to replace him with another taxpayer after he’s gone. Couples who have two children don’t even add more people they only provide replacements :)

[@DaiaHoshino]

Did he not go to school? :D

[@friscowolf2917]

I don't have kids, but I always vote for school bond issues.

[@TheBeatle49]

​@@friscowolf2917Me too.

[@learningisfun2108]

Does he ever consider that the taxes he is currently paying are for the education HE got as a child and teenager/young adult? Taking something (like an education) for nothing is theft, no?

[@donepearce]

Taxes are a brilliant idea. Roads simply wouldn't happen if they relied on individuals. If we didn't spend tax money on the NHS we would be like the USA - rich or sick.

[@RickReasonnz]

Oh jeeeez libertarians.... Look, if you don't want to pay taxes, then get the hell off my taxpayer funded society.

[@royms2000]

They don't understand that it is not theft, it is the enforcement of the social contract that you agree to when you take a job, and therefore benefit from that contract. You are not obligated to participate in our society, but if you do, you are obligated to pay for it.

[@machintelligence]

Taxes ae the dues you pay for civilization.

[@ACE-pm3gh]

​@@machintelligencewhy does anybody need to owe "dues" for a "civilization"? Is that just some personal assertion you are making?

[@michaelsommers2356]

The only spirits that are real are the kind you drink.

[@filibusteros.787]

😂😂😂 🍻

[@Joewithanl82]

Drink up !!

[@tristinjeffers450]

Love you, Matt. ❤️

[@huguesdepayens807]

Paying to talk to Matt is something I'm seriously considering. I couldn't really call into any of the shows because I agree with him on religion and even if I didn't I work on those days anyway. I've also been a fan of his for about 10 years and he helped me out of religion when I was around 11 and got me interested in logic and philosophy.

[@bradchervel5202]

Dont do it.

[@huguesdepayens807]

@@bradchervel5202 Why not?

[@bradchervel5202]

@@huguesdepayens807 because his shows isnt about advice, they are about battling religion

[@Blazingbiskit]

@@bradchervel5202 reading comprehension failure, re read the comment.

[@professorgremlin1425]

@@bradchervel5202That’s why he wants to talk to him. No one cares you’re offended by “battling religion”

[@broslyons8045]

good point- taxation is complex- corporate taxes in the 50's led to huge growth -

[@jakubosiejewski9859]

Might does not make right but might is the ability to actually do things.

[@cyrusredgrave3439]

"...to benefit from a system you're not contributing to- how is *that* not theft?" ^bears repeating

[@LukeSumIpsePatremTe]

Because theft is taking something that you don't own, especially without it's owners consent. Just because someone gives you a gift doesn't make you a thief.

[@w8m4n]

Come to the UK (on a rubber boat) and you'll get more benefits than all the tax payers

[@popi590]

Well said, and appreciated

[@saracarlstedt8147]

Been watching and listening to you for a number of years now and I am in awe of your patience. The debates, answering of questions and so on from people often coming with malicious intent. The hypocrisy of these people, the lack of basic knowledge and understanding of how biology and physics work. Living, born and raised in Sweden it is sometimes hard to believe that the people are not actors doing a part for a play. The contrast of our societies and what is "normal" and not is astounding to me. Sweden is largely agnostic or atheist and the separation of church and state is a hard line, religion or belief is not something that we usually discuss openly and wived as very private. I basically just want to say keep up the good work.

[@Raidori768]

Yes, please. I would absolutely watch a skepticism based call out video in the style of mst3k

[@CatDaddyGuitar]

"Taxation is theft" applies to people who don't understand what a socialistic community is and how that's spread out over the population because they do have a myopic view of what that means to them. It's a selfish perspective, imo. They're not benefiting from some service that their taxes are helping fund and therefore don't see why they have to pay into it. Perspectives like this is why the United States is behind on certain socialistic services like healthcare.

[@jasonbrown8155]

I'm okay with taxes, but i don't agree that taxes protect property rights. Many places have property taxes, land use taxes, even parking taxes, car taxes. And if you don't pay those taxes the government will take your stuff. It's a loop where you don't "really" own any property. Your just kinda renting it.

[@markderamo9229]

“Hey, pay me. And then I’ll talk to you.” Yes, Matt. That’s exactly what you’re saying…..you’re no better than a corrupt politician.

[@speculativebubble5713]

The fact that Netflix now has a docuseries on the life of Moses shows how the definition of "documentary" on Netflix differs from what actual documentaries are (or should be / used to be).

[@markevans8206]

They stream ancient aliens. That shit pisses me off.

[@ΘάνατοςΧορτοφάγος]

How do people expect the government get money if without taxation?

[@gmathewn]

I have always been impressed by the logic of your arguments. You deepen the root of my scepticism.

[@ArKritz84]

Early squad is early.

[@temmaxtemma9570]

Matt's movie/video live reaction when

[@ΘάνατοςΧορτοφάγος]

Taxation isnt theft. Not taxing billionaires or corporations is theft for the rest of us who have to contribute more

[@camwyn256]

Especially roads. Corporations benefit the most from roads, yet pay the least towards their maintenance

[@JustifiedNonetheless]

Do you have any empirical evidence that you can present of a *_PHENOMENOLOGICAL_* distinction between the dissent to a proposition and assent to its negation?

[@CaptainRedBull]

“Matt Reacts”. I’d be down for that.

[@nagyadamka]

On the topic of documentaries, there is a Hungarian movie called "Mao, the real man" (or "Az igazi Mao") from 1994, about the life of Mao Zedong chinese dictator. It uses the documentary movie technics, including archive(ish) films, interviews, the characters speak English and the Hungarian narration is dubbed over it, to appear more credible. However, this movie is a scientific experiment. During the movie, the claims about Mao's life are getting more and more fantastic. The whole purpose of the movie is to test the audience how gulible are they, and can they be manipulated with propaganda. Of course, at the end, the movie reveals, that nothing in the movie is true, and it is an experiment.

[@pandorabryn]

I would really enjoy you trying your hand at a react video!❤

[@Dusios]

I have lost track of the number of times Matt has elucidated something that I believe but could never have put as clearly or succinctly.

[@a.randomjack6661]

Somehow, I associated your "mailbag" with the infinite monkey cage 🙈 I imagine you get lots of very odd stuff,

[@scottplumer3668]

"Taxation is theft" is an argument made by teenagers when they read Ayn Rand for the first time.

[@d20Fitness]

The biggest issue with “taxation is theft” is that it only works under there own framing if you assume nobody ever consents to it. Also, they always talk about doing a consumption tax instead because it’s voluntary but that’s still taxation. So even they don’t believe it.

[@davidreynolds6718]

Matt, if you and the crew did an MST3K of that Netflix thing, it could be pretty hilarious.

[@acemak14721]

I am in a union, where you don’t have to join and pay dues for them to protect you. And the people who don’t join and pay….constantly complain about how weak the union is……let that sink in.

[@ACE-pm3gh]

I finally figured out why Matt ran from that Andrew dude and why he has this disdain for anything religious. I cant believe it took me this long to figure out that matt divorced his wife for a man that had surgery to look like his ex wife!

[@Doe174]

I would watch a react vid to that movie👍

[@Imranosaurus]

Taxation isn't theft, but some of what Matt said isn't really true in practice. For one thing, there are taxes which if you don't pay, your property is taken away - like another commenter said: "property taxes, land use taxes, even parking taxes, car taxes." Also civil forfeiture is a thing. More importantly though, if you're an American then the vast majority of your takes end up funding foreign military bases, war crimes, and the 1%. So the libertarian guy is wrong, but tax evasion is still totally ethical in the US as things stand right now (probably not worth the risk though).

[@multi-milliondollarmike5127]

I wouldn't recommend lying on any tax forms because that will always send somebody straight to jail. If they just don't want to pay, the IRS will eventually send them a bill/presentment form with an estimation of what a person owes them. In that situation a person can use the a4v method on the form and mail it to the IRS headquarters on Pennsylvania Avenue to discharge the debt. Don't expect a receipt from the IRS though, because they will just quietly leave you alone. My dad hasn't paid income taxes in 15 years doing this.

[@JohnFnLopez]

I miss watching things like this docu-series. Before I became a skeptic, I loved watching shows about aliens, ghosts, Loch Ness, Bigfoot, etc. I wanted to believe. I didn't, but the possibility used to exist for me. Now, the complete lack of quality evidence, and the overwhelming amount of logical explanations corroborated by other scientific fields, doesn't allow me the freedom to want to believe. I hate learning that something I believe isn't true. It sucks!

[@w8m4n]

I still enjoy all that bollocks. Just separate the reality side of it. Like a movie

[@justaguy6100]

Good to see you buddy! With the election I've focused on politics but I haven't forgotten about you.

[@IanHnk01]

would be great to have a 30 min talk with matt, Gotta get those life saving rdy now.

[@greenjelly01]

How anyone beyond middle school is libertarian is a mystery.

[@DemstarAus]

I don't particularly think this is your best... mainly because I think the emailer's line about things being called other things really hooked you and you went with it on a tangent. I interpreted what they said as not liking when something is called one thing as a way of avoiding criticism or backlash. Whether or not the matter at hand actually occurs is a different thing, but I really wanted you to take a breath and notice it. Language is used to impact how we think and feel about things and it is used that way on purpose.

[@blueredingreen]

"Tax is forced labour" - there are many homeless people who pay zero taxes, and who face zero consequences for doing so (on the contrary, governments look after those people to varying degrees). So no, it's not forced. Taxes only apply to labour you're already doing, by your own choosing, and to things you purchase within the government-supported society and financial system.

[@BattleF08]

I suppose I would agree in some degree that taxation is theft, if there was no option to leave the country on which the taxes apply. There's degrees on everything, of course. It's not a black and white choice. But in a place where you can vote and run for the position of leader on this, and can depart freely, I find it hard to put as much weight on financial burdens. Whereas bodily autonomy I weigh so much higher that it is insufficiently offset by such things.

[@seanharrison5766]

This I do know. After my wife died and I was left with 3 small children I turned away from Jesus and tried “the world” it led me down into a dark pit. In that pit Jesus met me and showed me his true love. His grace is sufficient. I hope you find that peace.

[@FoursWithin]

Don't have time to watch yet but I really like how you look in blue on the thumbnail so I just thought I'd share some 🩵💙🩵💙🩵💙🩵💙🩵💙🩵💙🩵💙 for the algorithms invisible KZbin Daddies

[@Anti-Theist-316]

I owe you a thank you, you started my path of deconstruction, so thanks man, your the dude