Atheist Debates: Parables - Why would a god use them?

[@KJ-9876]

Shepherd: "Beware the wolf in sheep's clothing" Sheeple: "Yeah! we gots to treat each other as suspects!" Atheist: "Also remember that wolves can wear shepherd's clothing!"

[@channingdeadnight]

this is a reply to Capturing Christianity's video about you. please give it a chance . it's a bit long but i hope it's worth it. if you appreciate is i love have a lot of free time at the moment and would love to help out you or anyone else that you might believe would want my help. ---well i watched the entire video. which is only fair. far to many people form strong opinions about things they don't actually experience themselves. to many people take someone else's analysis on a topic or subject without actually taking the time to actually verify anything they already agree with. you said quite a bit in this video so please bare with me for it shall take a moment to cover a few of them. -now i found it very interesting that you went to the alien abduction analogy. for this is something i have quite a bit of personal experience with. through this experience i know that like many times before, that oprah's doctor is either a bad researcher or omits data that disagrees with his conclusions. i know this through direct experiential evidence and factual data in which anyone can find online. my uncle Ron , an actual rocket scientist"ironically" but true is a rather prolific "Alien Expert " and has made a few dimes over the decades telling anyone who will listen about my aunts abduction between L.A. and utah. so i know for a fact that at least one person would have been happy to publicly explain their experiences. ANd for the reason he denied happens. for profit. so either he missed very low hanging fruit for his research or deliberately left it out because it contradicted his research. And alien abduction is nonsense. if it was actually happening everybody now has a hi def camera in their pocket to provide quality evidence by at least one person. and there's a ton of other reasons. -one of the things i find rather disingenuous about philosophical arguments about the evidence of claims, usually based on bayesian probability of evidence. which gives at least some statical weight to any claim made based on its probolity. which means by definition when i claim "i can pick up the moon and throw it at the sun" that is actual philosophical evidence according to bayes and many philosophers including you. now it would be considered just about the weakest evidence you could possibly give. But it is actual philosophical evidence. this shows how easy it is to truthfully claim something as evidence that is clearly nonsense. so as long as you base it in philosophical argumentation you can truthfully claim any claim as evidence no matter how ridiculous the claim actually is. lol man i've wanted to have a good reason to say that out loud for a long time. so thank you. -another way philosophy can also be rather disingenuous is by omitting that there is very different standards of evidence between science and philosophy. that things that can be considered actual evidence in philosophy wouldn't be looked at twice as evidence in science. this leads people to believe that when a philosopher is describing something as evidence it hold the same weight and gravity as something described as evidence based on scientific standards. it doesn't. that is why like religion no philosophical argument or evidence has ever falsified anything in actual science. -No matter how often apologists want to claim otherwise Atheism is not a religion. so the different reasons people come to that understanding or lack thereof can be completely different for different people. we also don't have the same kind of relationships with our so called leaders," only religious people really think of them in that way" and they get put in that category fro very different reasons. i enjoy watching matt argue with apologistists because of his knowledge of logical argumentation. but i would never take anything he said about science as from any sort of authority. that's not his field so anything he says about science doesn't carry any more weight than anybody else. Aron RA might as well as be a professor in phylogenetics or the evolutionary tree. but he doesn't really do cosmology or astrophysics. some of them are basically experts in theirs fields and those i enjoy learning from but most of the prominent atheists are just normal people that we enjoy listening to because we can often relate to their similar experiences in life and we find them personable and entertaining. but none of them are any sort of authority on atheism and there are subjects i know a lot more about than almost any of they do. it's just not the same. -now when it comes to the historicity of jesus often three different kinds of evidence are involved or used, Scientific, Historical, and Philosophical. They can also be considered more factually true based on the type of standards used. Science uses the strictest set of standards to judge their evidence by so would be considered the most true. historical evidence is often based on how it relates to the other evidence in it's time and is the second most strict of standards out of the three. and yeah philosophical evidence. when using actual evidence apologetics usually uses philosophical evidentiary standards when they actually use evidence. most don't have enough of an understanding of the science they are discussing to even come close to giving any evidence at all. -i am not an expert on the bible. if you want the most comprehensive modern peer reviewed research about the historicity of jesus and the resurrection you should read richard carrier. he puts the probability of jesus just being a real person at 30% and the probability of the resurrection to be true is 0%. i could go on a bit further about this argument and stuff but i have really gone on for too long already if you even read this thank you for giving my thoughts a good amount of time and effort. i know this was long and a bit dense. thank you.

[@Locust13]

It's almost like the gods of various religions couldn't communicate anything more profound than was known by the human writers at the time.

[@ArKritz84]

What a totally weird coincidence...

[@budd2nd]

Yes absolutely, it’s as if Charismatic people told compelling tales about a God and primitive people believed those tales.

[@anthonyweedonweedon1426]

Gods are not a necessary part of a religion. One of the most well known of all relgions has no gods or godesses. Matt Dillahunty behaves very much like a knowall god, whose favourite word is one, which begins with 'f'. As an atheist myself I am fully aware that Mr. Dillahunty hasn't the faintest idea of what it means to be an honest and upright atheist. His favourite word is one beginnging with 'f'. One of the reasons why I'm an atheist is because I've read the bible many times, including the NT in its original Greek. Mr. Dillahubty is one of the worst advertisements for atheism to be found anyware. He neither understands relgion nor non-religion and fails to understand the meaning of atheism.

[@ArKritz84]

@@anthonyweedonweedon1426 So educate us. What is the meaning of the absence of belief in the existence of deities?

[@anthonyweedonweedon1426]

@@ArKritz84 There are no gods in Buddhism. Buddhas are not gods. Everyone is born with the Buddha nature. Buddhism teaches belief in original goodness, which is the exact opposite of the Christian teaching of original sin. Our life is a process of seeking to always bring our original goodness to the fore. The Sermon on the Mount in the gospels is based on the much earlier Buddhist Dharmapada, which is the most helpful guide to morality ever compiled and much more helpful than the Sermon on the Mount. Parables originated in India and Buddhist parables are much earlier than the Christian ones. Parables such as the Good Samaritan and the Prodigal Son are later versions of much earlier Buddhist parables. The greatest of all Buddhist Scriptures is the Dharmapada and the Buddhist Scriptures are much longer than the Christian ones. Most of the miracles in the NT are based on much earlier miracles attributed to Shakyamuni Buddha, who ia said to have calm a storm on the sea and to have fed thousands of people from a small amount of food. These parables are not original to Christianity. Parables were invented in ancient India long before the time of Jesus, which is why Shakyamuni Buddha used them in his teaching. Most of the miracles attributed to Jesus are versions of much earlier miracles attributed to Shakyamuni Buddha.

[@iotaeta-pi2770]

My wife is a Baptist minister, and she's surprisingly in agreement with everything you said.

[@DGT416]

You should have her call into TAE

[@anthonyweedonweedon1426]

Iota, I'm so pleased your wife is a Baptist minister. I was born and brought up in eastern England in the county of Suffolk, where the Baptist Church is the second biggest denomination to the Episcopalian Church of England. I went to the local C of E school until I was eleven when I moved to the 'big' school a few miles away. My father was C of E and a churchwarden. My mother was brought up Baptist and had not been baptised. Before she married my father in 1904 she was baptised and confirmed into the Church of England (Episcopalian). In the village of Otley, near where I lived, the Episcopalian church had a place in the chancel where adults could be dipped in the water and baptised if they had not been baptised as infants. I converted to Zen Buddhism some 40 years ago and I practise serene reflection meditation. There are no gods in Buddhism, which is atheistic. Buddhas are not gods. We are all born with the Buddha nature, which is the direct opposite of the Christian original sin. Life is the struggle during which we strive to maintain our Buddha nature. Anyway, I have a special affection for Baptists and I have been several times to the Baptist church, which my mother attended before she married my father who was Clerk of Works on the Helmingham Estate owned by Lord Tollemache. My father was a churchwarden at Saint Mary's Episcopal Church. He met the late Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother when she visted Helmingham Hall and I treaure a letter I received from Camila, wife of the Prince of Wales, who used to visit the Helmingham Estate when my brother was there and he met him. My mother's father, Charles Howard, loved his Baptist Church. He was a very upright, honest man who never drank alcohol or smoked. My mother always said I took after him. With all kind thoughts and best wishes.

[@iotaeta-pi2770]

@@DGT416 One step at a time! When we were dating, I kept my atheism under wraps because I knew it would take time for her to understand. She also considered dumping me because of it. But it helped that my area of expertise was religion from a social sciences perspective. I could speak on the bible in ways she had never encountered. 10 years later, she's put my books by Hitchens, Dawkins, Russell, Durkheim, etc. on the shelves next to her bible-related stuff. But she's not quite ready for a full-strength dose of TAE. A lot of guilt and years of bad traditions to discard. 😁

[@DGT416]

@@iotaeta-pi2770 You should still have her call the show tho. LOL

[@anthonyweedonweedon1426]

@@iotaeta-pi2770 There is nothing wrong with not believing in a god or gods. Gods are not a necessary part of religion. There are no gods in Buddhism. Buddhas are not gods. We learn from others who have different viewpoints from ourselves. Disagreeing politely with another person is always better than throwing our weight around in a crude and blustering fashion. I've learned so much from listening to other beliefs and points of view. Friends do not always agree with each other about everything. My late wife Jenny was always there to discuss all kinds of interesting things with me and we helped each other and I always valued her opinions and guidance. Jenny bought me a teddy bear and knitted a dress for it. The bear still sits on the dressing table and I imagine Jenny is inside it looking out at me. People are often too keen to conform instead of going by the song Frank Sinatra used to sing: 'I did it my way.' The grandchildren had their own teddies and were not allowed to play with my teddy. Take care and be happy, bless you.

[@andr0oS]

Favourite joke on this is "The Lord is my shepherd, he shaves my hair to make sweaters."

[@soeasyastonercoulddoit]

Nailed it once again Matt.

[@dennis1954]

Yes brother, Amen

[@thebalticbull]

@Mikael Desnos That’s funny shit

[@metroidmayhem8463]

The lord is my shepherd...wait what HES GONNA EAT ME AFTER DOING WHAT TO MY SKIN?!(Noped out the back door and subscribed to Matt's channel)

[@JamesM1994]

Why do you think He gets so upset at the thought of people selling their souls?

[@SC-zq6cu]

oh shit...

[@NelemNaru]

And you know what happens to the potter's clay? It gets put into a furnace. You can learn other interpretations of the parables here kzbin.info/www/bejne/nqPGl4RniLeEd6c

[@metroidmayhem8463]

@@NelemNaru lol

[@jfr597]

The lord is my shepherd. Kind of like the Twilight Zone episode "To Serve Man"

[@scowell]

God is not the author of confusion! Mostly. Almost never. Well... not *all* the time. Usually.

[@MrCyclist]

God is not the author of confusion, the gospel writers were when they wrote fiction.

[@cjdennis149]

@@MrCyclist I wonder how many other books were written by characters only found inside them?

[@stacielivinthedream8510]

This is the quote that turned me into an atheist!!! I couldn't get past all The confusion, malicious events, evil commands by a so called loving God, purely ridiculous stories and contradictions in the Bible and all the different religions and sects!

[@NelemNaru]

@@MrCyclist (Genesis 11:7) [God said] "Come, let us go down, and confuse their language there, so that they will not understand one another’s speech." God is the author of confusion all the way in Genesis.

[@NelemNaru]

@Josue Olivas > _to talk bad about him is to talk bad about yourself we were made in the image of him_ If a human used his free will to design a prison with a permanent torture chamber, and forces everyone who doesn't agree with his views there, it would be considered immoral. So we can use your logic and say since humans are made in the image of God, and God damns everyone who doesn't believe in him to an eternity in hell, he is just as immoral, if not more so.

[@theoldkrow905]

Thank you Matt! This happens in Buddhism as well- varjrayana groups of tibetan buddhism (like Shambhala) have special writings that supposedly give members greater understanding of reality and only specific teachers are allowed to transmit the knowledge. Allowing members to chase their tale for decades. Super culty all the way. I was able to get out before drowning in the delusion. You have been a resource of sanity. Thank you for showing what actual righteous action is!

[@scowell]

Domestic sheep definitely need to be fleeced occasionally... you've seen the picture of the sheep that escaped and lived for several years? It was barely able to see.

[@felipeitoanuatti]

I believe that artificial selection and domestication made sheep grow more fleece than they need

[@scowell]

@Naukumaija Mau-mau Corrected! Stoats are no match for a sheep.

[@Correctrix]

*shorn

[@scowell]

@@Correctrix I believe 'fleeced' fits the metaphor better.

[@machintelligence]

You have to admit that it was brilliant of sheep to invent shepherds. They have outsourced almost all of their problems: food procurement , health maintenance, predator protection and shelter. Not to mention hairstyle. ;-)

[@joannahaddock4338]

I always thought heaven sounded like a gaudy trump hotel.

[@anthonyweedonweedon1426]

You talk sesnse Joanna.

[@CallMeChato]

This was great. I called these ‘nodding heads’ moments. They didn’t even need explanation. The minister would bray one of these things and everyone would nod. Even if you had no idea what he was talking about you had to nod lest the people near you thought you didn’t get it, even though they didn’t get it either. The less something makes sense the more profound it sounds. Nod head.

[@exmormonroverpaula2319]

Parables are a way for a speaker to sound profound, while letting the listeners do all the work.

[@dennis1954]

The Lord is my Shepard to “shear them” equates to fleecing them for 10% ( or more) and having his agents (pastors, televangelists, and other people of the cloth) collect the monies and pocket as much as they can now.

[@scowell]

Hitchens had it most succinctly I think... “Shepherds don't look after sheep because they like them. They either want to fuck them...fleece them...or eat them.” -Christopher Hitchens.

[@budd2nd]

@@scowell Oh I hadn’t heard that before, that’s brilliant👍👍

[@invisiblegorilla8631]

Isn't it kinda funny that the whole shepherd / sheep metaphor completely overlooks the fact that the sole reason there is a shepherd to begin with is to use, abuse, and/or kill their flock for meat and other usable products (i.e. milk, wool, etc.)? But yes, the shepherd deeply cares for you, and rejoices when the lost sheep is found (cha-ching!).

[@unicornmilk6158]

Hello. New atheist, former non-denominational Christian here. Thank you for all the work you do Matt. In embracing the truth, I consequentially started being more assertive and more articulate in thought and speech. As if rust of Christian ideology kept the cogs from turning effectively.

[@servant7777]

Is that the rust of true Christianity or false Christianity? There is a difference between true living waters, and waters perceived as clean but are in fact toxic.

[@R0bstar-YT]

@@servant7777 Any waters that flow in the name of the Abrahamic God are toxic.

[@servant7777]

@@R0bstar-YT From the devil's mouth toxic waters flow.

[@unicornmilk6158]

@@servant7777 The fact that there is no way for you to tell the difference between the two. Whatever religion you believe in simply just got to you first, or sounded more convincing than the others. Ask your god to manifest to you physically. You wont do it because you know he doesn't exist or lacks the power he says he has.

[@unicornmilk6158]

@@servant7777 I think god is pretty toxic. The difference between god and I is the fact that I would fully stop a rapist from doing the deed, whereas god mayyyybe might punish him later. His "justice" is inconsistent.

[@andydonnelly8677]

I've leaned so much about my own personal bias from you over the years and think I'm a better human being for it, thank you Matt. Now more importantly, where can i get that shirt??😷👍

[@MaxPulse1]

I thought the same thing! Either for bowling for golf, neither of which I reckon is Matt's forte LOL

[@cyansloth1763]

It IS an excellent shirt

[@anthonyweedonweedon1426]

I always thought a Mat is what you wiped your feet on.

[@MedK001]

@@anthonyweedonweedon1426 that's why they said Matt with two Ts instead of just one.

[@PrimRoseLane]

The thumbnail makes it look like Matt is doing a magic trick with the flowers coming out of his hand. Magic confirmed.

[@cjdennis149]

"What the Hell's going on with Heaven?"

[@kenbee1957]

Heheheheheehehehehehe Hundreds and hundreds of descriptions of hell. Throw a rock and you'll hit five But heaven? I cant wait for that video

[@leyrua]

@@kenbee1957 I kind of envision Heaven as being The Kitchen. The shepherd tells the sheep that if they are good, obedient sheep, they will one day get to enter The Kitchen. Those who have gone into The Kitchen before them have liked it SO much that they decided to NEVER leave. 🤤😋

[@jimw5955]

What the heaven is going on in hell

[@kenbee1957]

@@leyrua Congratulations You've just written the script for Sausage Party

[@leyrua]

@@kenbee1957 Unholy crap I had no idea! 😂

[@nuanced1]

YESSSS. That shepherd analogy has been on my mind for weeks if not months. Like, how do they claim to KNOW that God has their best interest at heart?

[@135ipocketrocket2]

Three back to back vids from Matt in one day! A holy trinity! Matt, your clarifications of the unthought nonsense of religion are always so valuable. Like the "Jesus just had a bad weekend" revelation of the supposed dying for people story, this insight into parables just helps me see this silliness in a clear light. Lol, and if I give someone a sandwich with hate in my heart, they still got fed ahahaha, love it. Religion just can't stand up to scrutiny. Maybe that's the strategy of divine hiddeness -- god's afraid to debate Matt, haha.

[@marooneddreams7781]

Thanks Matt. I enjoy videos like these -- new and fun perspectives on familiar aspects of the Bible.

[@user-oo9rb8wf6f]

💌💌💌💌)

[@corwin32]

"Congratulations on your successful explanations! Here's your reward: an extra gilded floor!" "Umm...it's just outside on the ground" "Yes, it's a floor. That's what they do." "Can it go into a room?" "No, you didn't explain enough. You just get the floor." "What do I do with it?" "Look, do you want it or not?"

[@Nancy20012]

Indeed it looks like there has been intention to confuse people. I would also add another element. The interpretation one. Since the parables are not clear, everyone would potentially interpret differently. and people usually interpret things according to what they want them to mean, what they want to hear. So in the end we have so many people that have created a version of Christianity that they like and don't even know what else is in the Bible. Thanks for the video Matt.

[@ThomasO2]

This is my all-time favorite video of yours. Thanks!

[@missq2413]

Oh my God, Matt! You are on point, again. Nailed it. Again. I praise you!

[@user-oo9rb8wf6f]

💌💌💌💌

[@anonivan]

Yooo, I loved this one!!! I'm so proud of this, and you.

[@Reliissi]

So the key piece people use parables and metaphors lies here from what Matt read from the Bible: "This is why I speak to them in parables: Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand." Example Person A: "The truth" Almost everyone: "We don't get it" Person A: "Metaphor to try to convey the truth" Person B: "Oh I get it now" The rest: "We still don't get it" Person A: "Another metaphor to try to convey the truth" Ad infinitum The problem with this is, though, when people then write the metaphors and parables into a book and everything gets eventually further and further away from the truth. So, in the Bible for example, there are some truths it's trying to convey, but the end result is so far from the actual truths, that it's basically a useless book.

[@servant7777]

It appears you are perceiving truth as just a single idea. However truth is spread out over many ideas. The absolute truth consist of many truths. So the more truth which is presented, the more opportunities not less opportunities a person has to the truth.

[@busylivingnotdying]

I like the idea that heartlessness hinders redemption and the opposite, that humility and receptibility is a prerequisite for making use of "blessings" A good example of this "phenomenon" is the movie "The Green Mile": - A "blessing" was walking among people - Everybody could surely use help (in a variety of ways) - But most people was so caught up in their racism, classism and sexism (for example) that they were blind to the possibilities John Coffey represented... But the Police officer (I can't remember his name) has the humility to "think outside the box" or to see what is hidden to more "sensible" people and he become a conduit for help to some that desperately needed it! I think perhaps that say something true about life... And I don't think it is about "clarity" People that has gone through some things are capable of seeing things that others just can't. Suffering can be a door to wisdom!

[@annjfk]

Hmm. It's interesting to have a Bible study for atheists. Gives you a different perspective. I enjoyed this.

[@1nf0calypse]

Sheep actually do need to be sheared, because they have been bred that way over many generations. Wild sheep you do not need to shear, but almost all of the domesticated breeds do. Just like modern pigs will often die from panic when they hear loud noise alone because they are so overbred for fast growth and size. Just check out pictures of wild pigs and domesticated pigs in size comparison.

[@MehYam2112]

Sure, but this is beside the point. You don’t breed and rear sheep for their benefit, you do it for your own.

[@stevenbyers8747]

Matt, This is a great video. It clearly and consicely explains the problems with parables in the context of an all-loving god.

[@vladtepes9614]

A good deal of Mesopotamian texts refer to the king as the "shepherd of the people". The gods of Egypt are often depicted with a shepherd's crook in hand. It was a symbol of leadership in pastoralist societies.

[@virusINJUSTICE]

Me: Mr. Matt Dillahunty, can you tell me a bedtime story? This video: Oh and i'm not implying that what he says is fairytales or such, im just saying his vids are easy to fall asleep to since im having trouble falling asleep recently

[@sivonparansun]

Yeah 100% agree with you. You are clear when words are not open to interpretation

[@titusgray4598]

Another motivation I think for parables is that it sets Jesus up as appropriately “mystic” for the purposes of his ministry. If he communicated plainly it might be clearer but it would also be boring. So there might be some argument to be made for the literary factor. It’s more poetic and flowery, and thus “more wise”

[@harmondraws]

I have something to pick at your mind or anyone's, I'm a long term atheist, I used to watch your videos years ago but I'm 21 now and a lot of things have caught my attention over the years. Lately I've been getting into spirituality and meditation, and sort of seeking enlightenment. You argue against religious gods often, but I think what people neglect to argue about is just the idea of worlds beyond the physical. If it was possible to run into higher intelligence, or devine beings only through ancient means, like meditation, yoga, deep breathing, is that so dismissible just because you can't experience it for yourself right now. I'm not exactly arguing for the existence of a real god, just I'd like to hear Matt's opinions on things besides religious ideas but still of the beyond. I for one think it's completely possible for their to be world's beyond our physical world, that are accessible through determination, but doesn't necessarily mean it's magic. It can have an explanation that we just don't have the ability to fully test for the average human without dedicating his life. Like the idea that fungus and mushrooms control the earth. I'm not projecting any certainties, these are just the ideas that have been on my brain, from some experience and from some of what I've read. No I've never done any psychedelics Also I can tell a lot of atheists run away from religious ideas because it was forced on them. But just because you haven't experienced something for yourself doesn't make it invalid. I'm just an agnostic atheist really

[@jgunn03]

I never realized how many interpretations can come from a parable until I started talking about them with people from other Christian denominations. It seems each denomination has a specific interpretation. Also, the stories that are deemed true by Christians also have their own moral interpretation, depending on the denomination. Even when I was a Christian, I felt god was a jerk to use parables to try to make a statement ~~ Too vague for something so important.

[@Apoplectic_Spock]

Looking forward to the heaven vid!!! People don't spend enough time deconstructing the heaven idea and how fookin' absurd it is.

[@miranda.cooper]

Yeah, like... I'm going to have a mansion and all that but the ONLY thing I'm going to be doing is praising the lord? xD

[@aheartonfire7191]

maverick0698 Jesus talked about earning rewards so why do you think praising God is going to be the only thing? That’s absurd. You are only getting half the story from people who don’t really care or have specific knowledge about those things. A mansion means a home, a home with no evil people, and its forever and you get new bodies. That’s all good news to me and it’s the best one out of all the religions and beliefs.

[@jadarrientatum3751]

How is it absurd?? What about the idea of heaven seems off to you

[@jadarrientatum3751]

@@miranda.cooper you’ve clearly never read anything about heaven then😂if that’s all you think is gonna happen

[@Apoplectic_Spock]

@@jadarrientatum3751 @JaDarrien Tatum The fact that you have to ask tells me you haven't even begun to honestly and objectively critique the claims of a heaven put forth by religious institutions. Matt Dillahunty and The Atheist Experience vids covering the topic may be the quickest way to introduce yourselves to the glaring problems with the concept of heaven.

[@kenbee1957]

I LIVE FOR THE DAY YOU MAKE THAT HEAVEN VIDEO I don't normally type in uppercase I dont think I've ever commented in all caps anytime before anywhere on the internet But I AM COUNTING EVERY SINGLE SECOND UNTIL YOU MAKE THAT VIDEO ABOUT WHAT EXACTLY THEISTS THINK IS GOING ON IN HEAVEN

[@espositogregory]

Humans are impacted by experiences. Informing someone of a fact will hold less sway as what they have concluded through wrestling with concepts til epiphany is approached. In this manner it can be argued that this is how parable can reach depths in literary terms better than “digital binary” listings of information. That is my only point concerning rhetorical devices

[@The1Helleri]

I think parables, fables and the like can be useful in communicating ideas with the right approach and goals in mind. Sometimes one might have a lot of topical points to make on a subject. But in order to make them the speaker may have to step far outside of what the listener is familiar with. The speaker may have to first establish new terms and their meanings with the listener. As well as a history of how the conclusions were arrived at. This can be taxing on both the speaker and the listener. Especially when there is only one speaker and many listeners. To the ends of the points being lost in the semantics. Packaging a nuanced argument into a simple and memorable story that can be re-examined on the listeners own time in order to extract more from it can be a very useful tool. It can be using the power of knowing what someone else knows to help them know more. But doing it to gate knowledge is not fair to the listener and makes the speaker less comprehensible. The real difficulty with it is when the speaker doesn't know as much as the listener regarding what theme and specifics they have chosen to use. So a farmer telling another farmer a parable about farming to explain how they think their community should be organized is useful. But it won't make sense or have as much value to the listening farmer if it's a big city bureaucrat that's speaking. There has to be a level of common core understanding - A shared cultural context - In order for the parable to have value. That's a big problem with trying to apply the parables of Jesus to the modern age. None of us are 1st century middle-eastern common folk. I suspect that to them the meaning of passing a camel through the eye of a needle was obvious. But we don't have their context so it's largely lost on us. These things are fitted to an intended audience. They don't have much value outside of that.

[@shriggs55]

Thanks,Matt.Some good points.I've given some Christians the passage in Mark 13 which is a parallel of the one you gave the parables are meant to blind.I'd think that would be a verse that penetrated their wall of cognitive dissonance.But,no dice.Astounding!

[@sadboipotato3382]

Another thing is that Jesus at one point says "let your yes be yes and your no, no because anything more than this comes of evil". So basically he said to say what you mean and then spends the whole time speaking in vague and confusing parables.

[@servant7777]

I could say that what you are saying is coming from evil because you have purposely pulled something out of obvious historical context and grossly twisted it to justify your evil meaning. Either that or you are incredibly ignorant of ancient Jewish culture. In Matthew 5.33 the historical context was that the Jews would make swears to God by either earth or heaven. When they did this they were bound by their oath. Sometimes due to the situation these swears locked people into doing things that were horrible to themselves or others. Jesus is saying you can either agree or disagree, but no swearing. Only the divine has the right to swear.

[@sadboipotato3382]

@@servant7777 K

[@ph5541]

I think I've seen you don't necessarily buy into the Richard Carrier mythical Jesus hypothesis, but this topic definitely falls into his mystery cult idea where those uninitiated have not attained a level high enough to receive the actual knowledge. Btw, I'm a huge fan. Keep it up!

[@jasontucher7011]

The 23rd psalm was the first biblical passage that I memorized. I could recite it at a year old. The meaning I got out of it was that the Lord controlled everything that happened and it is wrong to want anything, except lying down in Green pastures which seemed strange considering that nobody really did it.

[@user-oo9rb8wf6f]

💌💌💌💌)

[@mavortius8388]

In the past couple years, I've taken an interest in the symbolism of the stories. I've also taken an interest in cognitive science, and I've seen some overlap: Analogy is the Core of Cognition. That is the thesis which Douglas Hofstetter puts forward in the book "Surfaces & Essences." Highly recommended read. If humans had to develop thought and language by referring to concrete entities first before more abstract thought and language emerged, then it may be useful to recognize what the roots of our abstract categories are.

[@starshinedragonsong3045]

Little known fact. In nature sheep with super thick coats (never cut) are safer from wolves. It actually protects vital organs. Wolves can't get their teeth in as easily. We bred them for thick coats in order to shear them. So shearing modern sheep of their thicker coats may have become a symbiotic relationship. I imagine it must make them feel better in warmer climates and warmer seasons, I'm sure, as long as predators are lower risk.

[@gamingdragon1356]

The reason why parables are used because they are more interesting to listen to as well as remember rather than a plain yes or no . It is quiet simple actually .

[@rsnsol2490]

Great point. I would love to see more videos like this

[@prizmajeno]

Computer code is just metaphore too though... you need a whole lot of context to interpret it correctly, the very same sequence of bits may mean one thing and it may mean its polar opposite or something completelly unrelated depending on a bunch of details. You would think that as a layman that code is clearcut and unambigous, but it really is not.

[@uncreatedskeptic9968]

Matt, I feel like this is the Atheist Reading Rainbow. 👍🏻😂

[@k1ln1k37]

Bold compliment.

[@SpookyFan]

Hi, Matt. With respect, I get the impression that you might think "vagaries" means "unclear things/ways [of communicating]" (11:19), however, it means unpredictable or erratic events, actions, behaviours, or whims. Peace.

[@trevorper]

So excited for the next episode of “What the Hell People think is up with Heaven”!!

[@johnhingley9950]

"I think he said blessed are the cheese makers?"

[@stewiepid4385]

@Toughen Up, Fluffy I disagree. Yogurt is a dairy product but it is not cheese.

[@rustedromeo]

Prayers on your battle against cancer, wish you all the best

[@weflyhighdrones4584]

Huh

[@myautobiographyafanfic1413]

I'm curious what you'd think of the works of Joseph Campbell.

[@sigmata0]

I think the one thing I would have told my younger self was that metaphors do not have one singular meaning but can have multiple meanings simultaneously and no one meaning is superior to any other. Further that those meanings are resolved subconsciously and interplay with other ideas and thoughts below conscious attention. So they can create their own ecosystem of own and their influence becomes hard to identify. Just like a cake covered in icing may look like a single monolithic object but can be in fact made of distinct layers all of which can have their own flavor and texture. No one layer infers what another layer will taste like nor will eating it be distinctly the sensation of one layer or another, although with the appropriate application of attention such distinctions can be made. The constellation of a slice of cake is more complex than any particular layer or filling. Above all else one must remember the cake is a lie. (Or that potentially everything is cake). Even non-cake things can be cake and even cake like things can be something entirely different.

[@derphilosophiekus3008]

So interesting totally agree, but I could imagine to speak in parables to give the structure of something, but then would also tell what I meant in that situation so nice work

[@lauriesoper4056]

I sat in the front seat of a Sunday School class one Sunday while the pastor proclaimed a "truth" from the shepherd theme. He asked the question, "How does the shepherd show how much he loves a sheep?" He pointed to the Psalms to support his answer: "By cutting off its leg." Yup. Nobody in the class betrayed any worry or disgust with this claim. The worst part was that this pastor was my father.

[@servant7777]

Is this even Biblical? I don't recall ever coming across a verse in the Psalms saying this. i know the Psalms can sometimes be violent, but this is usually in regards to God's vengeance. What I recall in regards to the shepherd and the sheep, is that the shepherd is willing to lay down his life for the sheep.

[@aheartonfire7191]

Servant 777 you are correct and I can’t remember but I think Paul Wahser talked about it maybe you should look into it somehow

[@keithkennard2473]

Matt. I believe I heard Hitchens say, "The Shepard on sheep: Shepards are feeding off them, fleecing them or....ahem... f**king them."

[@jasontucher7011]

The shepherds must be Scottish. The reason they wear kilts is because sheep can hear zippers a mile away.😂

[@eloz9726]

Thank you Matt , you make so much sense .

[@artistjoh]

Matt, the sheep that we use for wool, such as the Australian Merino, are the product of breeding to produce excess amounts of wool. The natural ancestors of those sheep certainly did not need to to be shorn, however the Merino does need to be shorn annually because the weight of the fleece becomes problematic for the sheep eventually. After shearing the sheep tend to leap around, and it is easy to imagine them enjoying loosing that big and very hot fleece. It does not mean that the shepherd is being loving by shearing the sheep. If anything, the fact that people have bred them to have such uncomfortable fleeces is the action of a dictatorial and exploitative slave owner more than a “loving master.”

[@kenbee1957]

Oooof Also Now feeling great guilt in my woolen jumper

[@artistjoh]

@@kenbee1957 Why feel guilt? It is a reality of living, that we live because of a ruthless drive to live. A Covid virus has no moral complication in killing a host. It is just a part of life. A lion need feel no guilt for the death of an antelope. Humans are unique in breeding other animals for human benefit. Dogs, cats, cattle, and sheep are amongst the most radically changed, and as a result of their usefulness humans have dramatically increased their populations, and given them veterinary care. The Merino may experience some annual discomfort from excess wool, but if I were a sheep and could think about these things, I would rather be an Australian Merino that a New Zealand Romney, because the Romney is bred to produce more meat and the shearing shed is a much more pleasant place than the local butchery. Meanwhile, one might wonder how crops like wheat might feel about the heavy weight of grain they carry compared to their scrawny ancestors. There is literally no part of being alive that does not include exploitation. The exploitation is not the issue. The issue is is Christians pretending that concepts such as ‘shepherd’ is a warm and fuzzy concept whereas the reality is quite different.

[@kenbee1957]

Hehehe I was being hyperbolic actually Of course sheep would rather have that discomfort of an itchy, probably heavy coat of wool....instead of being Dingo lunch. Still brings a smile to my face picturing them leaping about after they get shorn: thats really cute. Chickens too. I mean, they are around to get eaten. But because of this, they have come to outnumber humans on the planet 5 to 1. Not many animals can claim this (unless they are bats) Would be silly of the chicken to deify farmer Jones tho because he cleans out their stalls and brings them feed. The analogy falls to bits right quick when he shows up and takes your still-unhatched kids to make an omlette

[@artistjoh]

@@kenbee1957 I grew up on the farm, it was a dairy farm, but my father kept sheep on the steeper slopes. I remember from a young age being fascinated by the sheep bounding out of the shearing shed. They do indeed leap in the air as if they are excited, and run around. Of course they could just be happy that they “escaped” from the humans inside the shearing shed, but it is quite likely that they are enjoying the haircut. Since they don’t seem behave in quite the same way when “escaping” from other human interactions, I think it is probably the shearing that causes the behavior :)

[@nicosteffen364]

Assumptions vs Facts Every day the farmer feeds his turkeys, the will assume he is a nice guy. One day, the days before thanksgiving, some disapear, thats where the facts change and the assumption turns out to be wrong! The shepherd doesnt care for his sheep for nothing, he exploids them! When ever there is someone doing good, there is something he wants to achieve. Its not always a bad thing, but you have to consider the driving force!

[@Im_Hugh_Jass]

Well said Matt. This is an important topic

[@vendettasapiens1542]

te sigo por muchos años , gracias por todos tus puntos expuestos y tu forma de enseñar como utilizar el racionalismo de una forma educativa , muchas de tuds ideas las planteo a mis alumnos , un abrazo desde muy lejos y toda la buena energia para ti.La repeticion de ideas de nuestros parientes a las nuevas generaciones es y fue una forma de sobrevivir a traves de los tiempos.

[@user-oo9rb8wf6f]

💌💌💌💌

[@jaidev777]

"The Lord is my shepherd" -- the funny thing about that, is that they're trying to give you an understanding of God by metaphor of a shepherd and sheep... but it's strange to liken what's supposed to be a superior thing like god, to a flawed thing like a shepherd, his creation, and animals also his creation. Animals apparently put on earth for our use, according to the theology.

[@gamingdragon1356]

It simply means a leader and a follower . I don't even know why we are just trying to twist such a simple thing into something sinister because Matt wants it to .

[@leyrua]

@@gamingdragon1356 I get more of a "cultivator and his dinner" vibe from the metaphor, because the sheep weren't domesticated for THEIR benefit.

[@gamingdragon1356]

@Event Horizon well christianity is about following , without thinking like all abrahmic faiths but again not all Christians are alike .

[@gamingdragon1356]

@Event Horizon for me ,Christianity is very good if the Christian keeps his faith to himself as such people have no right to force their belief on others.

[@jaidev777]

@@gamingdragon1356 - Well to be clear the most common accepted understanding is following a leader (and knowingly, at that) but it doesn't mean that that was what was the precisely intended meaning, or nothing more. It's even possible that some level of ambiguity was intentionally allowed. It's like the problem with metaphors - they do not completely accurately represent the subject. What I was getting at is, in trying to convey a message about the relationship between God and people, to appeal to the relationship of sheep and shepherd is to beg a lot of questions because both shepherd and sheep are highly imperfect - down to the very motives of shepherds, the lack of intelligence of sheep (making them highly exploitable), etc. And Matt wasn't claiming a sinister meaning - he was saying it is possible or such meanings could be possibly derived even if not the intention. He means that as long as meanings aren't precisely communicated, all of these possibilities exist.

[@Chris-op7yt]

parables and stories are much more impressionable and memorable, even if not faithfully transporting meaning. not saying it's better, just that it's preferred by us humans. jesus says that he speaks in parables to make it emotive and memorable, as mundane words would not carry much weight with ordinary folk.

[@lower_case_t]

You're reading Matthew's version of this story. And, of course, the author digs up an OT prophecy that he sees fulfilled by Jesus using parables. Because he's "Matthew", and that's what he always does. Mark's account is a bit different. He has Jesus asking his disciples: "Don’t you understand this parable? How then will you understand any parable?". In this original version, the passage seems like a user guide for the entire gospel: It was meant as a parable, from the beginning to the end. "They may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding" might well be about literalists who don't get that and I love the irony if that's what Mark meant.

[@rabokarabekian409]

An old Star Trek movie had Kirk ask the "LORD". Why does God... need... a starship? The same can be said about sacred writings and preachers. Why...does...God...need them?

[@user-oo9rb8wf6f]

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[@Thundawich]

I love the sower parable and how it plays into mythicist arguments.

[@willandersen3695]

No one: Thumbnail: watch Matt perform the miracle of growing flowers from his hand

[@user-oo9rb8wf6f]

💌💌💌💌

[@ronboyd9]

In the light of this insight, what do you think the plausibility of Luciferianism is? Just a rabbit trail here.

[@Eric_The_Cleric]

Can't wait for the heaven video, honestly. It's such an interesting subject!

[@juancarloscruz3183]

Matt, I don't know if you will see this but I urge to check out Actualized.org, Leo is having a 4 part video series on the problems with Science. The first two are out. It concerns me because he has a large audience and is very charismatic (literally talks for 3 hours each video). I dont know what youw ill agree with but je brings up many points that I know you have already addressed. He even is willing to do a q & a with someone who disagrees with him. You should be that person.

[@scienceexplains302]

Matt Dillahunty, The eye of the needle analogy was clear to the disciples; they responded as if Jesus had said , “The rich cannot get into heaven.” Matthew 19:24-26. Jesus replies effectively that god is required for anyone to get into Heaven, and he effectively confirms their interpretation that rich people cannot get into Heaven.

[@bretnetherton9273]

Awareness is known by awareness alone.

[@dord9]

I always thought about this too, but I take it a step further. Why would god deliver this absolutely imperative message to the world through text? Let alone parable. Why the bible in general? Why not just clearly and plainly communicate this message in person to every individual on the planet? Why is some man-made text all he has to show for his existence? A text that has since been copied, altered, and translated countless times for millennia? THIS was god’s best method for conveying his message?

[@vladtepes7539]

a parable is a quite established form of literature - and god would use the form for the same reasons anyone else would, no? whenever people try to express what they consider "higher truths", the language almost necessarily shifts into a peotic version of itself, turning the world into a picture, which hints at the deeper context, which can not be expressed directly by itself (no matter if it actualy exists or not). what parables do, is to give the process of grasping what is meant to the reader/listener, in whos mind the unsaid is supposed to take form by interpreting the said. the psychological benefit is that a person has a easier time to accept the conclusions, when - based on the given framework - he came up with it himself in the end.

[@vladtepes7539]

confused or all-too sure believers are not a consequence of the parable form used, its the believers once-more not knowing what they are doing. in actuality christians claiming a definite way to read the parables of jesus are undermining the purpose of them (letting the truth form in the readers mind) - and furthermore accuse their messiah to be incapable to express himself properly on what "actualy" is a simple factual matter.

[@esc952]

Parables, vagaries, and confusion were clearly an absolute necessity. Like all cults, the authors needed inside info only available to followers and only interpretable by the leaders. Otherwise, the sheep might not stay in line and continue to do the Sheppard's bidding.

[@bradmarchant7822]

And if I’m Gods clay to be molded, them how can I have free will?

[@kettenschlosd]

i agree with the video in general, though not on the clay/potter thing. i usually love my material. i love ink an graphite because i take notes and write with them. i also love brass, my material as a laithe operator. its another kind of love than what i feel for my family but i still love it.

[@user-oo9rb8wf6f]

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[@drewharrison6433]

Wool sheep do need to be sheared, because we bred them that way. Feral sheep do not need shearing, because they don't have the breeding pressure to produce a lot of wool. Hair sheep also don't need shearing because they don't have wool.

[@user-oo9rb8wf6f]

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[@Sophia-vk5bq]

Great insight on the parables.

[@user-oo9rb8wf6f]

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[@PhilipLeitch]

OMG, the thumbnail shows Matt's hand is growing flowers

[@maxfriis]

I usually agree with Matt and this argument is not bad. I do think he miss an important point though. When you speak in parables you form pictures in your audience's heads and that can sometimes aid in learning or even understanding the message.

[@user-oo9rb8wf6f]

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[@artmoss6889]

There are circumstances in which simile, metaphor, or parable can be useful. For example, to make the complex mathematics behind the paradox of quantum superposition easier to grasp, Schrödinger proposed his thought experiment involving a cat. And Einstein used the example of waiting for a welcome and unwelcome event to help explain relativity. Nevertheless, I agree that Jesus' use of parables is needless obsufucation.

[@user-oo9rb8wf6f]

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[@garyrolen8764]

The worse thing about arguing with people online: you can't interrupt with "hang on" "HANG ON" "your ass is on hold" They just go on and on. It is the easiest location to practice ones gish gallop.

[@garyrolen8764]

@FiniteAutomaton I wish nuance existed in the comments. So many faux arguments propped up by confirmation bias and an endless stream of accounts that will reiterate the same argument you've already debunked.

[@macdougdoug]

What about the desire to convey some sort of insight that goes against our habitual (chronological, subject/object, dissected) way of understanding? Maybe poetry would be better than a parable ? Unfortunately (or fortunately) poems can, at best, only convey some sort of sense of mystery and yearning.

[@pastordanielisaac]

Thank you for this video 🙏🏼 I would like to present a response video to yours.

[@user-oo9rb8wf6f]

💌💌💌💌

[@naysneedle5707]

Most domestic sheep need shearing because we've bred them for wool production. There are some breeds of domestic sheep that don't need shearing.

[@jackkraken3888]

This should be called rendezvous with -Rama- Matt.

[@cindychristman8708]

@ S Lop What is your source for all this? Are you okay?

[@TheMemesofDestruction]

I thought your hand was sprouting flowers for a moment!

[@contempris2383]

Not sure I agree entirely with this as a classical martial artist. Parables help, a lot. You should also know this as a philosopher. Sometimes you don't want give give someone a "clear direction" the point is to get the to think and interpret a way for their own personal understanding. Something unique to them. The context of Jesus nefariously using them as deception is wrong, however.

[@Джонатан-р8д]

This week on "Don't Get Me Wrong" 😂 Loved the video. Also, if the lord is your shephard, that makes you a sheep. Don't be a sheep.

[@user-oo9rb8wf6f]

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[@featheredskeptic1301]

Domestic sheep are artificially selected by humans for the purpose of wool (among other things). If they don't get that coat off before the summer months, bad things can and do happen. Especially if they live in a region with warm climate.

[@user-oo9rb8wf6f]

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[@joeyclank2204]

I’m curious also where Matt got his explanation of why Jesus takes in parables, is this a baptist understanding? The church traditionally understands this as people will hear this and and not understand, therefore those who wish to understand the mysteries will continue to look for answers, those who don’t wish to know or seek answers will turn away and not seek the answer

[@user-oo9rb8wf6f]

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[@LearningTheStixx]

Referring to my last comment: By level I mean perspective, the higher your level the higher your perspective. The lord works in mysterious ways, impossible to think your, or anyone else logic, can be applied.

[@LearningTheStixx]

@Event Horizon Agreed, seems one truth has inspired another.

[@elevown]

Yup domesticated sheep need sheering now and then. The reason being ofcourse because they are no longer like their wild ancestors - our selective breeding for traits we desire, has changed them a lot- same as with cows.

[@derricktrulson9326]

This is funny. Keep making more, i enjoy it.