Atheist INCONSISTENCIES on Slavery in the Bible

[@peytonevans9406]

This coming from an atheist: I very much appreciate your work. Your peaceful demeanor, empathy, and intellectual charity are so refreshing in this space. Don’t be discouraged. Your style of argument is extremely valuable. Also you have pretty eyes lol

[@jty1999]

Thanks for being polite and kind. We all appreciate it.

[@thuscomeguerriero]

Simp

[@szilardfineascovasa6144]

@@thuscomeguerrieroI have the impression some of you are automatons, with the intelligence of a bot. I actually thought of a fitting description - it's..."simpleton". 🙂

[@prestonyannotti7661]

We need civil discussion like that

[@thuscomeguerriero]

@@prestonyannotti7661 Dont care much for suck ups. Speak your mind..dont ask for a hug

[@williamnathanael412]

Dr. Ortlund uploads, I click.

[@babinbowie2846]

amen brother

[@justjason7662]

Agree! I do the same thing. Very seldom do I turn on notifications. Truth Unites is one of those occasions.

[@antowyneshaw7082]

Automatically

[@a.t.ministries5376]

I’m a simple man 😂

[@patrickwillingham8153]

Easy as

[@beerad_98]

Man it is amazing to watch this man deal with unfair responses to his work with such calmness, gentleness, and honesty and then systematic call out each of their mistakes.

[@markrempel3355]

I agree, I am an atheist and I really appreciate how he responds to unfair criticism.

[@pleaseenteraname1103]

do you think this is bad you should’ve saw their response that they did to inspiring philosophy on the epic of Gilgamesh.

[@onlylettersand0to9]

The Bible explicitly allows for sexual slavery, Kip Davis is treating Ortlund with the contempt he has earned.

[@beerad_98]

@@onlylettersand0to9 I apologize, I dont debate people over the internet anymore for your statement there. But regardless, I am truly surprised that you feel this man deserves to be treated with contempt. I'm sorry if you were hurt by Christians but Gavin is not being disingenuous or disrespectful and is taking their points seriously and speaking with kindness at every point he makes. To think he deserves to be treated with contempt must be based purely on him being a Christian. And if that is the case, I'm genuinely very sorry we as a people have left such a bitter taste in your mouth.

[@stewartparker1872]

@@onlylettersand0to9The Bible does not explicitly condone sexual slavery. Where ever you are getting that from has led you astray. Do you see Christians having slaves ? No. Do Christian’s have sex slaves? No. Why? Because the scriptures teach against sexual immorality. The scripture teaches love your neighbor as yourself.

[@joelw1730]

I pray to one day have the patience of Job and Gavin Ortlund

[@paulchanda4927]

Same 🙏🤣

[@Tyler-xf4kf]

You might not want to pray for the patience of Job lolllll

[@TacoTuesday4]

The irony of whining that your point of view isn't being heard and then to go on and do the same to an opponent is pretty wild. These guys are something else. Nice response!

[@Roescoe]

Classic projection. Hopefully Ortlund's gracious display will win them to the Truth.

[@colinhamilton7365]

Your point on tone is so true. Their tone was consistently demeaning, angry, and childish. Meanwhile you change your voice slightly for a hypothetical opposing position and that crosses the line? Honestly I would be embarrassed if I were them. I hope if they respond that they apologize and decide to be adults at the table instead of children with a temper tantrum.

[@EnglishMike]

Tone policing is all very well, but Bowen is a recognized scholar in this area and it does look like he's willing to engage directly with Gavin (he just posted a comment). It's the substance of the debate that matters in the end.

[@BeefyPreacher]

@@EnglishMikedebate doesn’t happen in a vacuum. The manner in which you debate determines the substance of the debate. If someone is demeaning, sarcastic, and just plain childish, the actual substance doesn’t get through. Whatever substance these guys tried to get through in their response got lost because of their childish attitude, except for those who are akin to the same thing.

[@biblicalworldview1]

They respond that way when they cannot defend their beliefs with reason. It's just a rhetorical tactic.

[@EnglishMike]

@@BeefyPreacher That wasn't a debate video. I have seen respected academic William Lane Craig scoffing and mocking the arguments of counter-apologists when he's just with other Christians and apologists in a video chat, so let's not pretend that Christians don't do the same thing. Both Kipp and Joshua have said in these comments they are willing to have a dialog about the subject, and it sounds like Gavin has agreed. I expect any resulting videos to be entirely respectful and substantive.

[@highroller-jq3ix]

You come across like a whiny, sniveling, petulant child.

[@a.t.ministries5376]

Hi, Dr. Ortlund. I don’t know how much you’ve interacted with Josh and Kipp, and I’m by no means an expert on their work, but, from what I have seen, they are fairly disingenuous when it comes to critiques. They focus more on painting Christianity and Christians in as bad a light as possible, rather than actually addressing a person’s points. God bless you for standing firm through it.

[@endygonewild2899]

Yep, although I think they still should be treated kindly.

[@nickNcar]

Their first point about the article being written in the 40's is equivalent to going "Gravity? Wasn't that discovered in the 1600's?? It means nothing now"

[@brianlin1922]

Hahaha good point.

[@SP-td9xj]

Yeah that was incredibly irrelevant, especially since there hasn't been scholarly work debunking it in the time between now and then

[@njhoepner]

No...because gravity has continued to be proven true over time. No religious doctrine of any kind can say the same.

[@myjunedayya]

We found an atheist trying to win arguments out of context again! The issue here is not a religious doctrine ok?

[@nickNcar]

@@njhoepner Your comment is irrelevant in this specific case. Their issue with the paper was that it was written a long time ago. Using their same logic, gravity is meaningless, and Issac Newton's studies and research are all useless.

[@castanedamusic1578]

If you’re listening to a point with a smug smile on your face, you’re not listening. That’s the beginning of the failure of their response.

[@onlylettersand0to9]

If you listen to ludicrously bad arguments, it's hard NOT to have a smug smile on your face. Ortlund is an expert at stating absurdities with a smooth voice and you failed to notice that. For example, Ortlund insists that opposition to slavery is Christian--while completely ignoring that, for the majority of its history, Christianity was strongly pro-slavery.

[@bettytigers]

​@@onlylettersand0to9Christians don't always serve God or his loving purposes as selflessly or perfectly as Jesus did and does, but "good and faithful servants" often get killed or seriously injured attempting to!

[@highroller-jq3ix]

Did you type that smug declaration with a smug smile? By the way, where else would a smile occur besides on the face?

[@bilbusbungledore7222]

​@onlylettersand0to9 does doing something or allowing that thing to happen make you pro that thing?

[@onlylettersand0to9]

@@bilbusbungledore7222 If you are in charge of an organization that is committing atrocities, know that the atrocities are occurring, and let the atrocities continue, that would make you complicit.

[@joshuamyers7510]

Dr. Hawk: *blasphemes* *curses* "EQUIVOCATE!" Gavin: *raises his voice by a tenth of an octave* Dr. Hawk: *sighs* "Thats so unprofessional, Gavin."

[@bryanbulmer6716]

Lol , sounds like what the false prophets do.

[@jockchicken3595]

You have to be quite sensitive to get offended by Dr. Ortlund’s tone. That was the most hypocritical critique by those guys.

[@computationaltheist7267]

Your point is spot on.

[@Stanisthemanis]

Yes, maybe a trigger warning would help for next time. Warning! This video contains “correcting tone” viewer discretion is advised. 😂

[@WaterCat5]

Some things are just offensive regardless of tone. Gavin's arguments are just absurd to anyone outside the same theological bubble, so of course people would be offended. One of Gavin's main arguments is that God couldn't forbid slavery because it was so common. This is silly for multiple reasons. One, god is omniscient and omnipotent, meaning he would have foreseen that his creation would result in this. He could have stepped in before things got so bad that it was so prevalent or simply never allowed it to happen. Even if it were so prevalent, he could still outlaw it everywhere at once via miracle. He has that power. Command the slaves to leave their masters and punish the masters if they don't allow it. Sounds very similar to the jews leaving egypt, doesn't it? Two, god forbids other things the other nations do, such as worshipping gods other than him. By the same logic, Jews shouldn't have been able to practice monotheism, yet that is part of the ten commandments. If all the nations practiced child sacrifice or rape, then god would have to allow that. And should you think Hebrew slavery was somehow so benign as to not be evil, then why are they not allowed to walk free whenever without consequence? Third, god could have simply not given us the ability to make slaves. Make us beings unable to inflict violence on each other. If real, God already has done this. For example, I cannot beam terrible directly into your head from my own. God apparently saw fit to not give us that freedom, so why not just make us unable to inflict violence, such as by having us not inhabit bodies? And should people wish to invoke free will as they always do, that doesn't even interface with any of my points. If #1 and #2 infringe on free will, god already did it. #3 doesn't rely on free will. It's a fact that we are missing some potentials that could enable a wider array of actions, and there is no reason to think god could not have restricted it further. This is why people get offended by these arguments. Saying "Oh, it wasn't that bad, and it was everywhere!" doesn't really fix the issue. Own up to the fact that if the bible is true, your god's morality is not as clear cut as Gavin tries to make it.

[@zingers847]

@@WaterCat5whether or not you’re offended by that argument, they’re being very sarcastic and snarky throughout their video and treating Ortlund like an enemy when he’s just trying to have a conversation. they’re trying to use sarcasm with each of his arguments as if to say “haha wow look how stupid that argument is!” and pretending that’s enough of an argument itself.

[@FuddlyDud]

@@WaterCat5 I’d point out that your own restatement of Gavin’s position puts you in the same fault of not listening carefully to his argument(s). Just as in his video, right out of the gate, you’ve made the same error he spent roughly 50 minutes responding to. :/ Can you quote Gavin or give a timestamp of his exact argument instead of paraphrasing?

[@trueoutlaw13]

I have no idea how you manage to be so patient with people. Thank you for your example and your knowledge🙏🏻

[@highroller-jq3ix]

What knowledge? Josh Bowen is an actual expert. Trust actual experts.

[@trueoutlaw13]

@@highroller-jq3ix that's unfair, uncharitable, and rude. Almost how the "experts" were behaving🤷🏻

[@highroller-jq3ix]

@@trueoutlaw13 That's whiny, hyperbolic, and a non sequitur. Josh Bowen is an actual expert. Dr. Apologist is not. Trust actual experts.

[@trueoutlaw13]

@@highroller-jq3ix I can see by your other comments that you're just looking to fight, which I'm not going to engage with. I hope you find joy and peace. Have a good life

[@bryanbulmer6716]

Trust the expert. Nope I don't wanna go to hell

[@williambillycraig1057]

I was surprised by Dr. Kipp; he normally is a better actor, but from the other two, I expected the sleazy lawyer technique.

[@MrSeedi76]

That's true. He seems to be far more sincere and humble when he's doing videos alone. As soon as he's "running with the pack" he thinks he needs to be cool and edgy. It's quite cringe. And sad honestly since I did enjoy some of his stuff but he got too caught up in this anti-apologist vs Christians clickbait nonsense.

[@hemankhouilla2795]

I was becoming more and more angry every time you played a clip of them. You kept it fair and respectful, even tho they definitely were not. God bless you on this journey, and sincere thanks for your work 🙏🏾

[@desertsand8778]

God bless you bro.

[@enochquon5599]

Gavin, this is probably one of the most thorough responses on the issue of slavery. This has really been lacking in Christian apologetics. Thank you for steelmanning the arguments and taking Dr. Bowen and Davis head on. At the end of the day, it's not about winning, but Christ glorified. Looking forward to you engaging topics with this manner in the future. You have earned a subscriber!

[@bikesrcool_1958]

One must also remember Old Testament Jewish civil law wasn’t meant to be moral law for the world. People might balloon this.

[@DrKippDavis]

Hey, @TruthUnites, is that a different studio? I really like the other one. Thanks so much for the response, Gavin. It really feels like all of us need to sit down and talk. I hope you are as willing and interested as we are in making that happen.

[@TruthUnites]

just emailed Josh back! Let's do it. Yeah I like the other room, but the problem is it has no door and I have 5 kids lol! So noise is an issue. Talk soon.

[@DrKippDavis]

@@TruthUnites I solved that problem by just strongly encouraging my kids to leave the house, and find their own place to live. (This has been about 40% successful so far.)

[@davidjanbaz7728]

​@@DrKippDavis And Don't where your clown mask: it's NOT a good look 4 u.

[@swiftsea6225]

⁠@@DrKippDavis You can’t do that! Who’s going to make them grilled cheese sandwiches🥺🥺🥺

[@DrKippDavis]

@@swiftsea6225 Don't you grill your own cheese sandwiches?

[@TonyThomas10000]

I love the way that you respond to their snarkiness with grace, patience, restraint, and humility. And most of all, with the truth of Scripture.

[@highroller-jq3ix]

Where did the humility emerge? Where is the demonstrable truth of biblical superstition again?

[@TitusCastiglione1503]

@@highroller-jq3ix Are you just looking for a fight or something? You’ve been posting all over the place here.

[@highroller-jq3ix]

@@TitusCastiglione1503 Are you just looking to be a yapping purse dog or something? You don't seem to have anything of substance to contribute or any ability to isolate points to refute or rebut.

[@bryanbulmer6716]

Lol, I've been following you around reading your ridiculous comments that you don't respond to.

[@highroller-jq3ix]

@@TitusCastiglione1503 Are you just looking to be a yapping, vapid purse dog or something?

[@joshranowsky8083]

Thank you for doing what you do. I just subscribed. You are one of the few apologists I've seen who is respectful, patient, and appreciative of the critics. You adequately refute their points and reinforce your own without getting petty and childish. Ultimately the whole idea is to get to the truth, not "win" the debate. I think you do that as well as anyone I've come across. Sincere appreciation. I am very grateful.

[@Dave_OGG]

It’s not a good look when skeptics take the worst possible reading of a passage and treat it as dogma, acting as if any other possible or acceptable interpretation is unreasonable.

[@reaganlecroy7773]

it goes against exactly what they say about evangelicals

[@thomasc9036]

Those people will read a story like "The Boy Who Cried Wolf" and will conclude that the main point of the story is about the cruelty of underage working.

[@davidjanbaz7728]

​@@reaganlecroy7773that's totally their MO and they R. consistent at being that lame because of their minimalists scholarship indoctrination in their PhD's religious Studies programs of their professors who push the 19th century German Biblical critics as credible evaluators of the Bible.

[@Thomas-bq4ed]

It’s the impossible to argue with every individual Christian or theist and their very specific understanding of God. The goal posts will always change.

[@jonathanw1106]

​@Thomas-bq4ed great do us all a favor and stop trying

[@user-ey9kl1gw5f]

Another great video! I think we could all learn a lot about the way Gavin maturely handles people literally laughing and not taking seriously his well developed arguments. I'd love to see Gavin do more theology videos like his calvinism isnt crazy one on arminianism and molonism

[@mariojbrunetti]

Dr. Ortlund, you are the most tolerant and patient man I have ever seen. I can’t handle it. When I see these people doing what they do I want to go all Col. Jessup on them. “You want the truth? You can’t handle the truth! I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain Christianity to men who rise and sleep under the blanket of the very morality that it provided and then questions the truth of the theology that provided it!”

[@highroller-jq3ix]

Really? Ever? Are you sure you aren't being a suckup liar? Rise and sleep under the blanket of mass murder, misogyny, homophobia, xenophobia, and incest? Who actually does that?

[@highroller-jq3ix]

So the blanket of misogyny, ignorance, genocide, homophobia, ignorance, self-loathing, and mass murder?

[@bryanbulmer6716]

That made as much sense as your last 20 comments

[@BeefyPreacher]

I appreciate you Gavin. As a pastor who is occasionally misunderstood and misrepresented (without a chance to defend myself), my wife reminded me that Jesus was willing to be misunderstood and misrepresented, and rarely had the chance to defend himself.

[@aaron_johnson]

I really appreciate the tone you took in this response. Your approach prioritizes Christlikeness over winning and it really shows. Coming from someone who has aspirations to also start a KZbin channel, I take a lot of inspiration from you. Thank you. Also, your willingness to do your homework is exemplary!

[@Jigglepoke]

This is how critism of eachothers ideas should be handled if we want to create a more peaceful and tolerant society. Thanks for the video.

[@marinusswanepoel1825]

10:30 Just keep on doing what you do - it is working and Atheists are noticing. The way in which you are able to stay calm and respond fairly and rationally is spot on.

[@jfitz6517]

Your ability to remain calm & gracious in light of being reviled doesn’t cease to astound me Dr. Ortlund, it’s sorely needed in our age. I’m sure your parents & spouse played a huge role in developing the self confidence you have, but I know the greatest influence has come from the Holy Spirit. Don’t stop leaning on Christ through your work, God is using this ministry mightily.

[@lynnnelson4519]

I had to stop listening. I couldn’t stomach their attitude of superiority toward you. You deal with people with such kindness…you really don’t deserve this. Thank you for continuing to respond with truth to all who oppose your views.

[@highroller-jq3ix]

What imaginary "truth" do you refer to? The truth is that the ancient Hebrews readily embraced and openly practiced chattel slavery (one of numerous heinous cultural norms) and that biblical scripture bears witness to that reality. Sniveling about how cherry picked reactions offend your tender sensibilities has no bearing on the truth of that assertion.

[@Frank-np4sp]

@@highroller-jq3ixhe has another video on this topic that clears up the fact that the hebrews did not in fact partake in chattel slavery

[@highroller-jq3ix]

@@Frank-np4sp He has another video that lies about what is clearly and undeniably chattel slavery.

[@highroller-jq3ix]

@@Frank-np4sp He has another video that lies about the undeniable fact that the ancient Hebrews undeniably practiced chattel slavery? Neat.

[@Frank-np4sp]

@@highroller-jq3ix don’t you think it’s a mistake to assume you’re correct without the whole picture

[@PhrenicosmicOntogeny]

Serious question. How can you even stand to listen to these guys? I get so frustrated listening to stuff like that, I can never make it through it. And I don't just mean atheist stuff specifically, but bad argumentation in general. How do you sit and listen through it? Is it just a matter of building up your tolerance for frustration?

[@MrGgabber]

Same as any religious cult needs to dissociate from their cognitive dissonance. It's the old adage; Christians tend to question and work through crisis of faith, while aethists believe religiously

[@TruthUnites]

Thanks for the question. If Christians in previous times (and around the world) were willing to be martyred for Christ, the least we can do is show kindness even when it's hard. It is a biblical mandate (Col. 4:5-6, I Peter 3:15, Titus 3:2, etc.). Our arguments will not ultimately win the battle. It is love that will shine through and help people. It is a spiritual battle. Prayer helps. Also remembering our need for Christ, and abiding in Him. God bless you.

[@chrisazure1624]

It is difficult to listen to Ha-theist. They don't mind using underhanded argumentation.

[@TestifyApologetics]

​​@@TruthUnitesI needed this as a fellow creator of apologetic content

[@mpprod6631]

⁠@@TruthUniteswhat a beautiful answer. Strength through Christ is always the answer. Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of His might. (Ephesians 6:10, NASB)

[@thechristologists8479]

Blessed is he who does not sit in the seat of mockers. You're solid Gavin.

[@slow2speak]

Thank you for your example to us, Gavin. Kindness, humility, and patience without compromise. Truth, refutation, and correction without anger. Speaking the truth in love.

[@shetuski]

I’m so glad to hear about your future video on the conquest of Canaan. I’m mentoring a younger man who is struggling with the topic and I’m eager to hear your perspective. Thanks Gavin!

[@angelmirmartinez9096]

I don't know if you are a minister or just a church member mentoring a fellow brother. I want to point out that it is always Good to point out that God is incapable to kill anyone. only humans ( when compared to God) are able to Kill because life doesn't belong to us. God can decide if a 2 yr old or a 90 year old cease to live in this earth and He wouldn't be wronging anyone.

[@BrettWithTwoTs]

For some reason Gavin looks so Scandinavian in this video.😂

[@justchilling704]

He said he’s Swedish lol 😂

[@graysonguinn1943]

IKEA model room setup

[@thomasc9036]

...his last name is Ortlund which I am sure is a derivative of Scandinavian languages.

[@timtodd22]

Thanks brother Gavin (Dr. Ortlund)! I love your composure, intellectual engagement, and grace with those who disagree. The truth that we are all created in the image of God, the doctrine of common grace, the gospel, and the reality of those truths, as you engage, appears to flavor and provide a strong foundation for your interactions with others. It is great to see. Keep pressing on brother.

[@JW_______]

People like these three are not serious interlocutors. They don't know how to engage without deriding, laughing, and mocking. I've spent so much time listening to people like that in my life that I don't give them my time anymore. But we need people like Dr. Ortland, who turn the other cheek and respond in kindness, giving every benefit of the doubt. Ultimately love wins over ridicule.

[@stevenbatke2475]

That’s because they grow tired of having to defend what the bible says, against bible believers who refuse to read the words in it.

[@chibu3212]

@@stevenbatke2475 That’s not a valid excuse to have an arrogant, mocking, smug attitude. If anything, having the opposite sort of attitude would be more beneficial to getting believers to stop believing or agree with their arguments.

[@stevenbatke2475]

@@chibu3212 it would. But when Christians gaslight you and deny that the bible is pro slavery, you start to become a little nutty.

[@highroller-jq3ix]

If you don't listen to them, how can you characterize them? Are you a liar, or are you a hypocrite and a liar?

[@JW_______]

@@highroller-jq3ix LOL

[@ryanparris1021]

Beautiful response. If we ‘own’ and ‘refute’ people and leave the Love of Christ behind…we’ve achieved nothing. Our Savior became a slave for these atheists as well as all us Christians. If we forget that we’ve disappointed Our Great God and Savior.

[@Ryan-ms6yi]

You can love someone and tell them they are being stupid at the same time... Jesus did it. He literally called Peter Satan once. Sometimes I think Gavin is being too nice.

[@ryanparris1021]

@@Ryan-ms6yi Well of course you can love and go after lies aggressively. My point is there’s nothing Christlike about 1) Being unnecessarily personal (ad hominem), or 2) Coming from a place where our motives are to look like the bigger, smarter, better arguing man. Not saying you haven’t, but I’ve done a lot of extensive study on these topics. You will find scores of scripture that tell you there is a delicate balance of these two critical elements. Gavin, being not God himself just like you and I, doesn’t strike it 100% perfect all the time but I personally think he does a very good job of it. Blessings.

[@misha49ish]

This is why I hate MythVision. They’re completely uncharitable and obtuse. How do they expect others to take them seriously?

[@endygonewild2899]

You should see his critique of David Wood, next level cringe

[@misha49ish]

@@endygonewild2899 I wouldn’t put myself through that.

[@endygonewild2899]

@@misha49ish fair enough

[@gianni206]

You shoulda seen Kip Davis’ atheist testimony: The Bible’s cosmology made him doubt it’s inerrancy? Then he stopped liking the teachings they became inconvenient? And the last note was literally the Joker’s line “wait until they get a load of me.” Very self-serving. I am subbed to him, but he’s clearly very biased towards himself.

[@MrSeedi76]

​@@gianni206have you listened to the podcast Kipp did where he got completely drunk at the end (it wasn't on his own channel)? It was very informative. Towards the end, when all restrictions seemed to fall, he said some interesting things. I got the impression basically that he gaslighted himself into not believing. Anyone losing his faith because of the scholarship clearly did follow some bad scholarship IMHO. I'm German and studied theology at a mainstream university where you get all of the German higher criticism that you could ever wish for. Didn't make me lose my faith. It's not scholarship that makes atheists. It's misunderstood or sometimes even intentionally misleading, biased scholarship. And it's theology without belief in God or prayer or any spiritual practice that leads away from faith. Also - theology explained from an atheist is about as useful as an overweight, chainsmoking doctor telling me to live healthier 😂. I (so far) never learned anything from an atheist KZbin scholar that deepened my understanding of scripture. I'd rather read my Bible in peace and pray than concern myself with atheist arguments. I've heard them all, they never come up with anything new, and they remain utterly unconvincing. Also, it's quite obvious why anti-christian scholars constantly mention these issues like slavery or genocide - they think it's the easiest point of attack to drive a wedge between believers and Holy Scripture and they think if they keep it up, they might drive people away from God and His word. A very sad state of affairs and honestly at this point, biblical scholarship that follows this trajectory, has outlived its usefulness. There can be no "neutral position" towards God and Jesus and I never saw an atheist scholar holding a neutral position. That's why Jesus and the cross are a stumbling block. If you lose your faith - step away, do something else but don't try to lead people astray and make them follow your fall from grace. That's what my suggestion would be for biblical scholars who lose their faith.

[@danteadriatis1806]

Dr. Ortlund, thank you so much for making this video. It is really nice to see you respond to this and it must've been also a quite infuriating doing a response like that since it just really seemed like they weren't paying attention what you were saying in the video. Not to mention, their attitude seemed quite cocky towards you and so I even more appreciate that you've done this video in such a loving way to them and that you did not step down to their level. It is really important to still respond with love even when people mistreat your statements in such a way they did. And I have to say that you have done an amazing job with this video and your other videos as well and they have helped me with my faith a lot too, not to mention you are a big inspiration to me and I am sure to all of us who watch your videos as well, so keep it up! God bless you.

[@matthiasbrandt1252]

Another brilliant response Gavin. Always great that you stay kind and make strong points without attacking. The Lord continue to bless your work.

[@keepclimbing2015]

I always admire how charitable and kind Gavin is to his critics, while DESTROYING them with facts. (LOL sorry I couldn't help throwing in the hyperbole)

[@davidjanbaz7728]

You must be a Catholic: LOL 😂

[@davidjanbaz7728]

You must be a Catholic: LOL

[@whatdoyoubelieve194]

Great response! Sounds like you and @AskDrBrown need to have a tag team debate. Josh was super humble and non-confrontational with his expertise.

[@fernandoformeloza4107]

Loophole lawyers of the Bible, pushing their bias. Good work Gavin

[@21stcenturyrambo16]

Unlike gavin

[@Nonreligeousthiestic]

These guys did get rattled thats very obvious and Gavin sets a fantastic example here by remaining reasonable and as fair as possible so the focus remains on the actual salient points. Gavin youattitude and the way your handling yourself, not just on this issue, is worthy of all the great debates. God bless you for setting such an example for both believers and non believers.

[@brunoarruda9916]

So glad you responded to it! I watched it and was curious about what you would have to say. Let me hear your takes and then I'll be back with another comment.

[@FuddlyDud]

Thank you Gavin for your patience and grace towards these men. I’ve struggled to be loving in my listening to their arguments and you’ve shown how to do so with respect and grace. I hope you dialogue with them, if only to have your light shine in their lives. :)

[@EmilTennis00]

I appreciate your patience and great work!

[@Piranesi-gc8gn]

Yes! Go for it. You are doing so fine. I love the academic argumentation you do and all round well done.

[@zakfeacher7894]

The way they used your statement “it’s not that sinister” is a great example of taking words out of context. The words “it” and “that” require referents to be understood. In context the referents are clearly “slavery in the Bible” and “the Transatlantic slave trade”. But without context, the referents are easily assumed to be “slavery in general” and “sinister in general”. I really don’t think these guys deserve your charitable response - so well done!

[@fernandoformeloza4107]

The laws of the Bible regarding slavery goes above and beyond what surrounding contemporary laws have in terms of care and treatment for the slave

[@MrGgabber]

Of course, aethists love the slavery argument void of context, yet ignore their passive support of slavery in today's world. They hear the word "slave" and can only think of the US south

[@justchilling704]

It’s not even slavery in the modern sense it’s anachronistic, it’s like saying “race. Race meant something different and varied in the ancient world. Ebed does not denote a class of people or “property”, it denotes someone who is serving in some way, it can be used of all sorts of arrangements.

[@EnglishMike]

What a shame that an omnipotent God couldn't have thought of a way to convey the idea that owning another human being is an abomination and eliminate thousands of years of needless suffering of millions of enslaved people. Especially since he went to the effort of declaring dishonest weights and measures, sleeping with a menstruating woman and even cross-dressing (??) to be abominations...

[@EnglishMike]

@@justchilling704 This is the type of assertion that frustrates people like Dr Bowen. Maybe you should read his book...?

[@MrGgabber]

@EnglishMike tell me you didn't watch the video without telling me. Lack of context. Slavery is a means, you have to say what particularly about slavery you find immoral. If it's "people as property", then the Bible is against that. Slaves have rights, property didn't.

[@georgeolo]

It's mind-blowing how many different books you manage to read, Gavin!! Amazing work - as always!

[@jshbowen]

Hi Gavin. This is Joshua Bowen. I sent a message via your website (I know you get a lot of messages there). Talk soon! :-)

[@brunoarruda9916]

Nice. Looking forward to watch a dialogue between you guys.

[@davidjanbaz7728]

Loosen up that bowtie first it's cutting off the blood to your brain!!

[@DigitalHammurabi]

@@davidjanbaz7728Good one.

[@ntlearning]

Josh…. You are not sincere, but snarky, arrogant. Gavin, don’t waste your time.

[@orthocath]

I hope you and Dr Ortlund continue the dialog. Dr Bowen, on this particular subject I'm on your side. I think your book on slavery is well done. However, I was disappointed in the tone you and the others had that prompted Dr Ortlund's response. I also suggest that the issue be centered on whether the Hebrew and New Testament Scriptures viewed slavery as an acceptable practice in the nation of Israel or in the early Church?

[@benyaeger4388]

I thank God for your ministry Gavin. Stay strong in the Lord Gavin.

[@mssgofreconciliation]

Beautiful tone, response, content! Everything was spot on!

[@theepitomeministry]

Another great video, Dr. Ortlund! Your approach to apologetics is so needed today.

[@yvichenj333]

Don't stop doing rebuttals! They are at times even more helpful in preparing me for my own discussions, than the original video. Really looking forward to your Canaan video(s)!

[@TempehLiberation]

I don't agree with ya on everything theologically Dr. Ortlund, but I can agree that these responders were not engaging fairly with your arguments. I believe the reason is kind of what you alluded to at the start, these folks probably think they already know what you're going to say since they've "heard all the apologetics". So it's a kind of "we don't have to listen to you since we already know what you're gonna say".

[@adamcosper3308]

To be fair, these arguments are stale.

[@johnferguson4859]

Great response Gavin, both in your content and manner. Deeply grateful for you. 🙏🏻

[@JustJoshua101]

Thank you Dr Gavin

[@chadasonmcgraw8097]

I can't watch this. These athiests are bad faith actors who are strawmanning your arguments. It feels unintentional, but they really twisted your words to a point that it made me uncomfortable by how far they missed the point.

[@justchilling704]

I’m so glad I’m seeing people notice this, I commend Gavin Ortland, Inspiring Philosophy, Sentinel Apologetics, Testify, etc. For their charitably but it’s clear to me that Mythvision and Bowen, are indeed bad faith, and I’d even say outright dishonest. However Christian apologists can call this out, but don’t bc in part they’ll look bias and petty to many. But we all know this is the case.

[@brianlin1922]

Exactly!

[@matthew_scarbrough]

I have to say, I don't think responding to the Triggered Trio is a good idea -- they're grifters. They will return stone for bread and they will be a thorn in your side for quite a while. I am not suggesting you should be afraid of them, rather, I think ignoring them altogether would have been the best response. Hopefully they don't start trying to get you fired or get your work rejected from publishers and stuff. They are disgusting individuals.

[@TheEpicProOfMinecraf]

I generally agree, but a first response is important. If they go off the rails, then they can be punished just as easily as they try to punish others. Slander and libel law is not meaningless and if they snap too hard, they will get a significant swat.

[@tomasrocha6139]

God doesn't send you to hell you send yourself, Kipp didn't get Dr. David A. Falk fired, he made himself permanently unemployable when he dismissed Francesca Stavrakopoulou's work because of her cup size.

[@user-ef4cn2kc9w]

I am glad you are finally engaging Josh's arguments.l had requested in my comment on your original video to engage his material. I really love the spirit in which you put forth your defence. They really didn't do a good job responding to you. And that only says how good your argument actually was. Thank you for the great work.

[@ntlearning]

Josh does not deserve his time. He’s emotional and condescending.

[@raphaelfeneje486]

Listening to you is a breath of fresh air. You don't shy away from engaging even dishonest atheists!

[@brando3342]

I am so frustrated, and annoyed listening to these three mocking, and laughing, being hypocritical, and uncharitably listening to your points. How you can be so kind back to them is genuinely incredible. Their actions in no way merit any positive reply at all, as far as I’m concerned. If it were me, I probably wouldn’t even respond to their nonsense.

[@thedude0000]

How exactly were they uncharitably? In fact, Dr. Bowen provide specific counter examples constantly throughout the video.

[@bryanbulmer6716]

Interesting, I think you need glasses and a hearing aid.

[@justchilling704]

Dr. Josh Bowen has a huge bone to pick, other scholars in the same field offer great alternative interpretations that frankly are better and align better with the texts but he just pretends his view is objectively correct. The weirdest thing. Edit: What’s even more weird is that he’ll ignore parts of the say chapters that completely contradict his view, for example he claims you can have sex slaves in Israel and Rape women and just marry them after when the penalty for rape was clearly execution or banishment. He also as an Assyriologist should absolutely know that the laws are mostly idealized and not all literal, as there was a local court where matters were determined, not unlike today actually 🤷🏽‍♂️

[@EnglishMike]

_" Rape women and just marry them after when the penalty for rape was clearly execution or banishment"_ You're wrong: 28. If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29. he shall pay her father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives. (Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NIV) The man is only executed if he rapes a women married or betrothed to another man -- i.e. if he's spoiling someone else's property. In the case of rape of an unclaimed virgin women, the women was indeed forced to marry her rapist and remain with him the rest of her life.

[@justchilling704]

@@EnglishMikeOkay, I’m really not trying to be rude, but it looks like you’re making repeat myself. As I already replied to you, stop using bad translations of a word that suit your agenda, look up the original word, it use, and meaning, if you did that, you’d know that this is a better translation 👇🏽 “If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.” ‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭22‬:‭28‬-‭29‬ ‭KJV‬‬. Unlike how a lot of secular people are today, in that culture sex was taken much more seriously, you couldn’t just go openly smashing a woman and not be expected to marry her. We also see this happen to Jacob’s daughter, a nobleman (give or take) had sex with her, Jacob wanted them to marry to prevent social backlash in his daughter, but her brothers weren’t having it bc he wasn’t from their tribe or community. Edit: So in summery, dishonest interpretations are stupid, stop reading into the texts evil so you can try and one up Christians, it’s lame and it’s even more goofy when your boy Bowen does it bc he knows better as a scholar.

[@shanezarcone5401]

@@EnglishMike I hope you're at least open to the idea that the NIV poorly translates the word used there, and is one of few English translations that translate the word as 'rape'.

[@justchilling704]

@@shanezarcone5401 For some reason KZbin keeps taking down my replies it’s actually been to piss me off the past 30+ mins.

[@GutsStan]

@@shanezarcone5401I’m just going to retype my reply on this account.

[@Lurkingdolphin]

Bowen got absolutely schooled by Gavin . Especially when Gavin used Josh’s book to prove his point . Gavin isn’t even ANE scholar. Fair play pastor Ortlund .

[@anglicanaesthetics]

Gavin, you're a lot more charitable than I would be lol. I really admire that. Maybe I'm cynical, but I actually think the language and tone of MythVision tends to be quite manipulative. Like, very intentionally so to the point of a kind of emotional blackmail. E.g., whenever Christians respond, you tend to hear claims like "oh that's cognitive dissonance" or "oh theyre just trying so desperately hard to cling onto something that is so obviously self evidently insane"--the rhetoric is designed to make a Christian think they're insanse for any response he or she might give. It's meant to poison the well before any response is formulated and to try to convince listeners that the sheer *attempt* to formulate a response is madness. Tone is picked up on to try to prejudice people against the argument, and emotional blackmail (e.g. tearing up) is used for good measure. I have very little patience for this sort of thing. The difference in approach between folks like Joe Schmid or Alex O Connor, both of whom I respect and appreciate, and MythVision is quite stark. The difference in rhetorical strategy is remarkable. I have a lot more of a suspiscion of actual sinister rhetorical thought from MythVision and that ilk.

[@Lurkingdolphin]

Alex o Connor is just as bad as these guys ?

[@alpha4IV]

Don't feel bad, Dr Kipp said under one of my videos that I have the worst understandings of the Bible he ever heard. I was agreeing with his & dr josh's interpretation on some verse but I affirmed Inspiration and typology and that was enough to annoy him. lol

[@angelmirmartinez9096]

They way you handled the response is an example for both Christians and Atheist. Atheists channels mostly characterize for mockery and presupposing intellectual superiority of their viewpoint. May God continue supplying His grace into your life and ministry.

[@williambillycraig1057]

Drive by atheism misses more than it hits.

[@ottovonbaden6353]

Haven't heard that term before. Nice.

[@EnglishMike]

So the likes of Ray Comfort and Wretched Radio are drive-by Christianity?

[@BeefyPreacher]

I’m for sure going to use that term now ahah

[@gianni206]

“Drive by atheism” 😂 nice

[@highroller-jq3ix]

Goofy, batshit theism only misses.

[@jty1999]

I think their irriation is a conceit/pride issue, hence why they're not listening to your arguments. Proverbs has a lot to say about that. EDIT: The replies here are a dumpster fire

[@goyonman9655]

As a Christian, the Bible does not comdemn slavery

[@gustavusadolphus4344]

That's not a very charitable position. You shouldn't assume someone's disagreements or misunderstandings is due to a character flaw, unless the evidence for it is overwhelming. You should always assume the best, unless given evidence of the worst

[@MrGgabber]

It's because they lack rational thought (ironic) and the "slavery gotcha" they think is their best argument

[@jty1999]

@@gustavusadolphus4344 You're always welcome to go watch the original video and discern for yourself. I'm not condemning them, just making an observation.

[@EnglishMike]

No, the irritation is from hearing the same bad arguments over and over again. Joshua has signaled his willingness to dialog further on this issue with Gavin, so perhaps some of the disingenuous motive attribution can be put aside until we see how that plays out.

[@rickydettmer2003]

Brilliant response. Watching there critiques was extremely difficult for me lol so I’m glad Gavin is very calm and level headed in his response

[@Bugsy0333]

One person owning another person as their property is immoral, evil, and wrong ! I'm sorry, but there are no excuses !

[@codytempleton3512]

I think at some point you just have to leave the scoffers to their own demise, shake the dust from your feet and move on. These guys clearly sit and laugh and scoff with an attitude of arrogance as if they sit upon some high pedestal and parade their arrogance before their audience. This kind of attitude will never be genuine or give a genuine fair look at an opposing view, because their mind is made up that they hate our God and our belief and they will seek to tear down our belief any way they think will work. They do these things to their own damnation and at some point we have to move on from attempting to remedy this and leave them in the hands of God. Gavin you are honestly so kind and so patient with people like this, I wish to be that way someday but for now, I must just shake the dust off and move along and pray for them.

[@mendez704]

It is hard to make a comprehensive answer in a KZbin comment, but I guess I will point to these issues: 1) I think that the main problem with your whole argumentation is that it comes from faulty hermeneutics. And nothing illustrates that more than point 3 of your list (the issue with Genesis 1 and being made "in the image of God"). The problem you have there is that your hermeneutics are not historical; they don’t read in context (contrary to your claims). And they do that because they assume that the Bible is a single book with a single voice pointing in a single direction. The analogy you use with the necessity of reading the first pages of a novel, as a necessary step to understand it, sums up precisely everything that is wrong with your view of the Bible. The Bible is not like a novel. And I am not just talking about genre, but the way the book is composed. The Bible is a collection of books, not one book, written over hundreds of years by dozens of different authors. A novel is written by ONE author, in a couple of years (and even then, novels sometimes have conflicting voices and ideas, yet you pretend the Bible is univocal - the "word of God"). It is worse when you consider many books in the Bible, like Genesis, are not even the work of one author, but a carefully crafted edition of different traditions and ideas, made by different people in different moments in history. That way of reading the text leads, unavoidably, to anachronism. I think Joshua Bowen discusses this, not only in the video you are responding to but also in other videos. The idea in Genesis that we are "created in the image of God" has nothing to do with the modern concept of equality. That is just you imposing a meaning on a text that is not in it, just for the sake of a theological narrative. 2) By reading in such a way, it is natural that you make points like 5 and 6. There is nothing in the NT that is inconsistent with slavery, except your desire to see that idea in that part of the Bible. And Christianity did not lead to the abolition of slavery. Christian historians and apologists who pretend otherwise have yet to explain why it took Christian civilization almost 18 centuries to come up with an abolitionist movement (or in other words, why Christianity coexisted so comfortably with that institution during the majority of its existence), but also have to explain why it happened at a historical moment in which its influence over society started to decay (modernity and the secularization it brought with it). True, many abolitionists used Christian arguments to push their case, but that makes more sense as understood as a reinterpretation of their own religion (which still was dominant culturally) to fit their agenda, rather than something intrinsic to Christianity that pointed against slavery. In other words, they cherry-picked the Bible to justify their anti-slavery position. And of course, you also ignore the fact that the pro-slavery camp heavily used the Bible to justify their position too (and frankly, more coherently, since the society that produced the Bible coexisted with and condoned slavery, both in the OT and NT). 3) Finally, there is the philosophical issue you completely avoided in this discussion: how a God that Christians defend as a bulwark of morality, as unchanging and naturally "good", allowed for such a practice to exist for so long? Why accept a slow evolutionary approach to it, not only given the atrocious nature of the institution, but considering that he is supposed to be unchanging? You Christian apologists want to have your cake and eat it too, but sorry, those two positions are contradictory philosophically. Either slavery was always wrong and needed to be outright banned, or not. And I don’t care about counterexamples like divorce, because the same logic would apply (either divorce was wrong from the beginning and needed to be banned, or not). It seems to me you are absolutists on moral issues when it suits you, and then relativists when it suits you too. Sorry, but you can’t have it both ways. Especially with a God that was strict on less important matters (like dietary concerns) or that would curtail stuff we consider rights on its own (religious freedom, since he outright forbade polytheism).

[@TrevorJamesMusic]

Blown away by the cordiality of this discussion.. As a Christian I'm not shy to admit that I came down on the side of Gavin and Trent, but major props to Josh and Kip for a really great conversation 👏 learned a lot for sure.

[@FuddlyDud]

Just don’t watch how Kipp and Bowen then responded to Michael Jones. That was sad to see. :/

[@pleaseenteraname1103]

Excellent response Gavin. I’m looking forward to your discussion with Kipp and Josh, I can see based on my own interactions with them that they are both incredibly nice guys, yes they can be kind of snarky and uncharitable sometimes, but can’t we all sometimes?

[@Outrider74]

Ad hominem ridicule and name-calling suggest a weak argument. That they referred to you as a "clown" suggests an inability or unwillingness to actually confront and engage your evidence. I'm willing to engage an honest atheist who can admit facts, but these guys are disrespectfully cherry-picking and playing "gotcha" for sake of argument and "scoring points."

[@Particularly_John_Gill]

I wouldn’t even bother with engaging with these guys. They don’t come off as people who are going to be open to actually engaging honestly. They immediately went to mocking.

[@MrGgabber]

They REALLY want Biblical slavery to be equivalent to slavery in the American south. It's literally their only frame of reference for slavery, they can't comprehend context

[@BeefyPreacher]

100%. It reminds me of Christ simply choosing to not engage Herod, and just remaining silent since he wasn’t asking thing sincerely.

[@highroller-jq3ix]

But it gave all of you "persecuted" whiners something to whine about. That's what you crave and live for.

[@user-if5yb4ky4m]

The dude is defending slavery, what do you expect?

[@MrGgabber]

@@user-if5yb4ky4m yawn, lacks context. You have no critical thinking skills

[@omnikevlar2338]

Yay! he is down to chat with them!

[@calebstober195]

Dr. Ortlund, massive respect for the work you put into these videos and the way you respond to critiques; I feel I'm learning how to be more dignified and honorable in the way I respond to others through seeing how you handle your discussions. High praise for the new studio as well--it looks great from a videography pov. There does seem to be something funky going on with your autofocus where the camera keeps hunting and defocusing. If it has these settings available, can I suggest either setting the camera to AF-S or just manual and lock it before you start filming? You don't move around much backwards and forwards, so you would probably be fine with fixing your focus in one spot rather than letting the camera continue to decide where it should focus. There may also be ways to make continuous auto focus more reliable, but that just depends on the camera model and what your current settings are.

[@andre_theist]

Dr Ortlund is the modern Augustin, love your work and Arguments Pastor 🙏✝️

[@thenewhope123]

Highly reccomend Michael Jones's series on the Torah for further elaboration on the context and imperfectness of the mosaic law(The Misunderstood Mosaic Law, the Imperfect mosaic Law and the revolutionary mosaic law)

[@endygonewild2899]

His series was really good.

[@lohi172]

Great video, as usual. I used to struggle with this topic more because well meaning Christians would say that the difference is “night and day.” OT slavery is a noticeable improvement but still brutal compared to the world most of us live in today. You gave me a lot to think about!

[@rainbowcoloredsoapdispenser]

My big problem I think with the mythvision guys, is that they see every attempt at explanation as excuse making a-priori. Don't get me wrong, it might be excuse making, but they don't see it as someone trying to illucidate a point, it's trying to soften the blow, or to save the feeling of the believer. This, to me, is very hubristic. It as if they're saying, "we've already got the right answer, and it's x. Any attempt to explain this phenomenon, whatever we're talking about, in terms of anything other than x, well that's just excuse making." and because of that they never fully engage with what's being said. There seems to be a filter over their ears that doesn't allow them to take what others are saying seriously.

[@adamcosper3308]

It's tiring dealing with the constant bigotry being pushed by Christians.

[@user-uq9bx5tl2v]

Good response video, Truth Unties. Thank you.

[@ShakurTheAshier]

They act like this because they're dishonest.

[@Cornelius135]

It is interesting how often atheists (rightly) deride a hyper-literal reading of the text by evangelicals, but then turn around and perform hyper-literal and un-critical interpretations of texts they don’t like.

[@addisonwier7438]

Great video, Dr. Ortlund! Once you’re done reading Bowen’s book, do you think you could post an in-depth review? I think that would be very helpful.

[@ElvisI97]

Thank you so much for hitting this topic. For many this is the single greatest trojan horse for progressive “christianity” if not atheism.

[@overtexpression2299]

Taking a smug and condescending stance is one indication that the speaker is not confident in their perspective. This is something that we see all too often, and does not lead to productive dialog. Unfortunately in our modern Western culture, the "comedian" is often seen as the most authoritative voice in the room, and sincerity is something to be scoffed at. You seem to have a much deeper capacity for patience than I would likely have in this type of scenario. Whimsy is important, but only when acting with respect for those you are attempting to have dialog with. This type of whimsical approach taken by this type of athiest merely serves to derail positive opponent processing.

[@EnglishMike]

Well, it's certainly convenient for you to be reading it that way, but Dr Bowen has just signaled his intention to talk further with Gavin which he clearly wouldn't be willing to do if he's "not confident in his perspective."

[@WaterCat5]

Or the person is just honestly disgusted by the defense of serious moral ills allowed by God in the bible.

[@overtexpression2299]

While both are certainly possible, his willingness to engage in a conversation is not necessarily the same as a willingness to engage in mutually-sympethic dialog where both are taking the claims of the other party seriously. Generally, you don't tend to find mocking laughter, empty filler swearing, and name-calling coming from those who wish to do so. While their claims may be correct in the end, and Gavin may be mistaken; these are performative tactics which are aimed at increasing a follower count in place of addressing the claims. This does not mean that they are incorrect in their central points. Still, it is just disappointing that these tactics muddy the water.

[@davidjanbaz7728]

​@WaterCat5 that would be judging by Christian values something that didn't exist in that time period of the Law : NOT the Grace of Christianity only possible after Jesus atonement and Christianity's effect on their western values!!! It's quite funny when they say God should deal with people in that time period based on Christian values. God was King of the Jews and acted as their guardian so God was biased 4 Israel only after he gave the sons of God to the other Nations as their gods. They conflate the two from their Biblical biases.

[@WaterCat5]

@davidjanbaz7728 Right, so god is an asshole. Good to know. Glad we agree.

[@Dragoon803]

We don't need to answer the question of why slavery is wrong to have a discussion on does the Bible condone slavery. The point of the critique is to show that The Bible does condone slavery therefore the claim that slavery is wrong cannot be made on solid Biblical grounds. TBH I really do hope an in person discussion is held between all of you so the air can be cleared.

[@jessknauftofsantaynezvalle4111]

Do the these arguments of the secular critics of Christianity, in a backhanded manner, provide a Biblical warrant for a re-introduction of slavery? If so, the arguments over reparations for the injured descendants of African slaves become a non issue for Christians. At the end of the day it’s interesting to speculate how the rise of Christian nationalism could appeal to these secular sourced arguments, against interest, to institute all sorts of slavery related practices.

[@RLBays]

I'm not trying to speak for Josh, Derek, and Kipp, but on your closing question, why is slavery wrong, you said that Christianity gives you your moral framework to be able to say that slavery is wrong. My pushback there for you Gavin would be, how do you know that it's not the other way around? How do you know you that you just don't have a moral framework that you've built based on empathy and reason and further, that your moral framework is what you're subconsciously using when you interpret scriptures about slavery in the Bible? In other words, you're a good person who happens to be a Christian, and not that being a Christian tells you how to be a good person? Cheers!

[@ora_et_labora1095]

Love how the love and the spine of Jesus can make you dismantle arguments like you’re walking on clouds

[@InfoLunix]

They didn't even get Gavin's point. Straw man arguments 😮

[@aldencole6714]

Ortlund, remember you have an audience of One. Keep loving God and man, as you are doing. Praying for you. Your brother in Christ

[@thomasc9036]

When a grown man starts to cry out of frustration on a response or debate, you know he is not a level-headed thinker.

[@emmadasilva1794]

To be fair, the matter of slavery is a very sensitive topic that people do often get emotional about. But more broadly, I don't think getting emotional means we should assume their reasoning is probably bad.

[@TheEpicProOfMinecraf]

To add on, Bowen had, as he said in the stream, already been awake for quite some time. His response was inappropriate, but we should give him charity in a moment of weakness.

[@thomasc9036]

@@TheEpicProOfMinecraf Don't know the guy but if true, doesn't that prove that he can't even discern the best time to respond to embarrass himself on KZbin?

[@TheEpicProOfMinecraf]

@@thomasc9036 I don't give him the most credibility, but I'm looking to not judge him overly harshly.

[@ghostapostle7225]

the average atheist for you.

[@jbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb098]

Gavin, one topic I'd love to hear your perspective on is their video on Daniel and what issues they have with it. I think Daniel would be good for your audience because it's already not the easiest book of the Bible to pick apart, and their video makes some bold claims. They also pose a question of who the final kingdom is most likely to be, claiming it isn't clear. If anything, I think taking on that claim with your best effort will prove fruitful in them changing their mind about you and your content. I have stumbled upon that channel on my own and I get the same vibe you do from the videos. There's a genuine desire to dig into things, but there's a frustration that leaves them a bit blind to their own bias. I think there is a genuine effort being made by them in their work though. I see the time they put into their content, and I doubt anyone would consistently make videos that long if they weren't aiming for the truth in some way.

[@zackattack366]

I find often that videos with multiple people in them trying to analyze an issue often devolve into snark or humor and chest thumping. I don't know if its a safety in numbers thing or if some are not as intellectually rigorous and so their contribution is humor. But a single person is often more cogent.

[@michaelbabbitt3837]

I practiced/went through several religions and even went through an atheist phase when I was young. I was the other side as I despised religious people, especially Christians as I was raised in a liberal Jewish culture. I still held this view of Christians as I went through the New Age, Buddhism, and even Hinduism. It is hard to hear others when your default mindset is that they are nuts without really listening. I became a Christian after every attempt to avoid it.

[@melissahasart4969]

Do you have a KZbin channel? If not, your story could really inspire others.

[@Tashiano]

Amazing video!

[@clarkemorledge2398]

@Truth Unites : Thank you for taking the time go through the MythVision (Derek Lambert) video with Kipp Davis and Josh Bowen. I am with you on this issue, but I do think Derek, Kipp, and Josh have good intentions here and deserve a thoughtful response. Kipp and Josh are highly proficient and well-informed scholars, so I take their criticisms seriously, even when I am not persuaded by their arguments. If you are going to engage with critics on KZbin, these are the folks you really need to dialogue with. They know their stuff, and I respect their intellectual honesty. Your charitable engagement with them is very, very important, so I am very glad you are doing it!!

[@ajrthrowaway]

I agree

[@ThinkitThrough-kd4fn]

They just agreed to meet. Its among the comments.

[@davidjanbaz7728]

Maybe you should actually watch their other videos to see how Honest??? they REALLY R

[@GabrielaPfauPalominos]

Great job on this and keep on exhibiting the values of our Lord 👏