Atheist Turns to Religion to Save America

[@thanksforbeingausefulidiot9016]

He's advocating for the age-old philosophy that smart people like him understand Christianity is a collection of absurd myths, but oh how useful it is in keeping the ignorant masses in line.

[@jonmeador8637]

I have most of Mr. Rauch's books, and I'll get this one too, but I wanted to set the record straight as to Madison and Tocqueville. Both were outspoken advocates of the separation of church and state. Tocqueville addresses it in "Democracy in America," and Madison can't shut up about it. Madison - not Jefferson - is our greatest advocate for the separation of church and state Madison understood that religion was not the glue that would hold the country together. In a letter dated October 24, 1787, from Madison to Jefferson telling him about the draft Constitution, Madison said this about religion: “Religion. The inefficacy of this restraint on individuals is well known. The conduct of every assembly acting on oath, the strongest of religious ties, show that individuals join without remorse in acts against which their consciences would revolt if proposed to them separately in their closet. When indeed religion is kindled into enthusiasm, its force like that of other passions is increased by the sympathy of the multitude. But enthusiasm is only a temporary state of religion and whilst it lasts will hardly be seen with pleasure at the helm. Even in its coolest state is has been most oftener a motive to oppression than a restraint from it.” Madison was no fan of religion, obviously. He'd be alarmed by Christian Nationalism. Religion doesn't keep people from doing bad things. Madison consistently believed that religion would not and could not safeguard our freedom and liberty. It had the opposite effect.

[@JHimminy]

He was setting up a corporation to wrangle and rule 13 fairly independent governments, not discussing philosophical matters. He’s saying: “Religion won’t do what we need it to do - i.e. control the plebs. So we must establish a central government that can and will.” You report Madison as if he didn’t come along after 300 successful years of colonies and say “Yeah, religion doesn’t work.” What does that even mean? Has the madisonian government prevented people from doing bad things?

[@jonmeador8637]

@@JHimminy Madison understood that people would do things in the name of religion that they would never do under any other circumstance. Good people will do good things, bad people will do bad things, all it takes to get a good person to do a bad thing is add religion. That's what Madison was saying.

[@thanksforbeingausefulidiot9016]

@@JHimminy That's the test of efficacy? If the system is unable to prevent people from doing bad things? North Korea is much more successful in preventing its people from doing bad things. Let's model ourselves after them.

[@EnlightenmentExponent]

​@@JHimminySecular government has done a far better job of preventing and punishing people who break the law than religion or the ten commandments ever did. No?

[@EnlightenmentExponent]

I appreciate your comment. What do you think about John Adams's view that America's survival is dependent upon people being religious?

[@DFLaval]

This was a quality interview. I will put it into my Christian Quiver. It is humbling to hear the numbers not because it feels like failure but it points to what needs to be done.

[@AndyColglazier]

Mr. Rauch is wrong. We don't need a substrate of religion to "save America." What we need is a commitment by Americans to American constitutional values. We don't need religious mumbo jumbo for cohesion. We need shared philosophical allegiance to founding principles for all.

[@chrishoward8473]

One of the places he could bear a bit of the load of fault is that the gay rights movement wasn't happy with christian toleration but demanded the same respect as racial civil rights. After that the mainline white protestant churches all have split and foundered on homosexuality, and not on tolerance but on the position of homosexuality in leadership and norm-setting in the church. If you want churches to carry a load of teaching people morality, you have to allow them to teach people morality even if some of that morality isn't what you want to live by. You have to be able to bear the disapproval of your neighbors.

[@TheCerebralMirage]

Morality doesn't come from religion, it comes from empathy. Keep religion out of politics, schools, government.

[@Forester-]

​@TheCerebralMirage Why would empathy inform your morality? Empathy tells us nothing about what is and isn't a moral act.

[@thanksforbeingausefulidiot9016]

@@Forester- Neither does the Bible. And if God is available to tell us, why doesn't he already? Why do we have to debate basic moral tenets throughout history? Because God is absent. That's why.

[@meyer7262]

Why do we need the mythical rituals to know how to behave. It's condescending to assume the maasses can't understand that.

[@josephsaulski]

I'll be interested in how much (if any) did Rauch draw on "Big Gods: How Religion Transformed Cooperation and Conflict, Dr. Ara Norenzayan" in his book.

[@stephenbailey9969]

Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.”

[@ChrisVink-b5b]

I have the thought that maybe someone is trying to prove I am deceptive. I do believe my parents Bonnie and Terry Tipton as well as the Noones can get me depressed, even possibly suicidal. I will take any job, Just get me away from economically. Bonnie and Terry Tipton will just be condescending to me in their own way for the rest of my life. They speak like they have the answers to everything. I am in Las Vegas, and will take any job. Just get me away from Bonnie and Terry Tipton so I no longer have to see any of the Noones. They will just make me feel like a terrible person, and a terrible failure in life. Bonnie Tipton, Terry Tipton, Shawn Noone, Jeremy Noone, Travis Noone, Alondra Ramirez, Brandon Noone, and his girlfriend Jeannie are morally perfect people who get nothing but success in life. So does some social force want me stuck here at this address to make me suicidal or to worship them all as vastly superior people and beg for their advice and secret to be as perfect and glorious as them. I would like to know what skill sets make all of the above vastly superior human beings, and to me. It has been psychological torture every day since 2021. Maybe I will have to take a job as clerk, earn money, and get any satisfaction out of life from watching videos of Electricity and Magnetism, Calculus, Differential Equations and that kind of thing. The more I am around Bonnie and Terry Tipton or the others the more miserable I get. OK SO THEY ARE ALL PERFECT PEOPLE. i AM APPARENTLY THE ONLY ONE WHO HAS EVER MADE MISTAKES. It is one reason I do not believe in Christian theology.

[@thanksforbeingausefulidiot9016]

Then what was he doing here? What's the point? Apparently his three decades on this earth were for naught.

[@steveclark8538]

See: The Critique of NT Jesus - DCS

[@ryeisenman]

Bias is probably unavoidable: in this case Rausch always citing more right wing hysteria ("flight 99 election") and not left wing hysteria ( "orange Hitler existential threat to our democracy"). But OK, there is an attempt at balance in this conversation and that is probably constructive. I'm surprised that Rausch would write a book on contemporary religion and be unaware of Tom Holland 'Dominion'. Nice of Jonah to reccomend it. My guess Rausch is largely ignorant of the segment of "cultural christians" where I situate myself. But its hard, if not impossible, to get a statistical handle on the "facts" regarding what groups exist and what labels to put on them (like what, exactly, are the denominations he lables "Christian Nationalist). But OK, great he is talking to the mormons. I find Rausch's arguing that Trump and his MAGA allies are somehow unchristianly political unconvincing. I think this is mostly just Rausch's distaste of Trump talking. I can share his distaste, in so far as I don't care for casinos and gold toilets and WWE spectacles, but that's not everything Trump. Trump is also someone intrigued by and connecting to the younger generation of "tech bros" who actually have spiritual interests (as manifested in figures like Jordan Peterson)....

[@simonskinner1450]

The law of liberty demands human responsibility, not human rights clashing with each other, and only Christianity offers real liberty from harm and blame.

[@Sgtvenom4598]

When I was a Christian strangely enough I was a liberal. After I became secular I became a conservative Trump voter.

[@TheEverFreeKing]

Your experience is opposite of the vast majority of people.

[@mikeainsworth9861]

@@TheEverFreeKing Since Trump is the opposite of Jesus there are no Christian Trump supporters.

[@Sgtvenom4598]

@@TheEverFreeKing I’m not so sure, most of my friend group are former Christians, turned secular Trump supporters.

[@jaia1996]

Why

[@Anti-DesertDwellerBrigade]

Most people aren't as stupid as you

[@morganvon5664]

As a former church attending believer, Rauch makes a fatal flaw in his reasoning. If the dogma and tradition of the Christian faith is to be altered to tolerate behavior that the Bible condemns, then what is it exactly that a Christian believes in? It isn't the Christ described in the Bible.

[@Magnulus76]

Jesus didn't say anything about being gay.

[@pompousprick6143]

Secular morality tends to shift inward, with self-interest taking precedence as individuals define right and wrong based on personal desires rather than a higher, unifying authority. Without a shared framework, social cohesion weakens, as self-interest takes precedence over the common good.

[@EnlightenmentExponent]

The shared framework that informs social cohesion is human nature. We have an innate sense of morality, hardware, that can be - is - shaped by culture, software. And some cultures (which includes religions and philosophies) are better, more moral, than others.