Atmos Guerilla Mixing Ep1 - Dolby Atmos on a budget?

[@DMS3TV]

So! A few notes. Yes you would need a mac (a M1 or M2 mini can be had for $600ish and is more than enough for complex projects), outside of that you likely wont need the atmos render engine unless your daw lacks support for surround (which is pretty rare these days). Atmos configuration is built into macOS. Loopback is a pretty cheap software that lets you aggregate multiple dacs together (some 7 channel dacs can be had for as little as $30). Your surrounds dont need to be identical to your monitors. You can get away with $49 Dayton AIRs. Ideally you'll be calibrating all of the speakers anyway so you should get a near identical frequency response from all the speakers. The same can be said with room size. You can calibrate for incredibly small spaces to still work with 12 channel atmos. I made a video a while back building a 12 channel calibrated atmos system from the ground up for under $2K and that was a 12 channel (7.1.4). A 5.1.2 or 5.1.4 could be done for MUCH cheaper. Probably closer to $1K or $1300 (including the price of a mac)

[@QFXmusic]

The Atmos regs are just guidelines and you can do it with the Binaural setting rather than the speaker ... most of the mixes are based on the Binaural mix .. I have just built an Atmos studio 9.1.6 and it sounds amazing... But every single pro mix I know is done on headphones and just the speakers for checking the balance. If you want any help reach out as i have been researching this for 8 months lol

[@studiovinden]

Wow, your place looks amazing, I'd love to see a lengthier video on the thoughts behind it. The binaural thing is something that I'm wondering a bit about. I of course realise that listening to an Atmos mix on headphones results in the binaural mixdown but what does a listener listening on speakers or using a service that doesn't provide Atmos get, also the binaural mixdown? Or a 2.0 version that's an automatic algorithmic mixdown (or even just the L and R channels in the Atmos bed)? Or an alternative proper stereo mix? But you're saying that according to your research most mixes are done on headphones, do you mean that the mixes are built from scratch in Atmos but monitoring the Binaural mixdown and then taking it to an Atmos room to do a reality check? Is this a genre dependent thing in dance music or more universal in your experience?

[@studiovinden]

I'd love to get your take on it, I'm trying to gather all perspectives but mostly the real world experience of the working producer, not only the ideal world of, say, Bob Clearmountain and such. KZbin comments is a really clunky way of communicating, you're very welcome to join the Discord channel (in my experience a fancy name for a chat) which is very straightforward and purely for this Atmos learning and knowledge sharing purpose. discord.com/channels/1088350647813947453/1088350648262742028

[@QFXmusic]

@@studiovinden Thank you its took me months of research to get to grips with the Atmos thing :) but there is a vast amount of good content on hear about it... Longer video is coming on the building of my New Atmos studio hear in the Czech Republic :) Ok so i have some good friends in america who are getting into Atmos and one friend is already mixing big names in atmos... So a few months back the 4 of us had a conveyance call with one of the top Guys for mixing Atmos in the USA...lol Lucky to have friends in high place in the music industry lol But the main thing we all got from it was that this guy mixes all his stuff using the Binaural mix in the render and only ref his Atmos rig to get fine placement sorted out... And he says 99% of pros doing Atmos are doing it this way for now as This is how 90% of the world will hear the mix for the next couple of years... Even the record labels in genral only ever here the Binaural mix to ok the mixes.. very few go to Atmos equipped studios ... Unless you work at the biggest labels in the world :) Now i can tell you from my Atmos room that once you hear music in 7.1.4 your life will never be the same again... I almost cried its that good... And you can if you set it up correctly play Dolby Atmos miss straight from Atmos music through your Atmos room... I do and its a bit fiddly but it sounds unreal.. Now Dolby Have Just released The new Suite v5 Which stream lines things a bit more not tried it but will be upgrading to it once i can afford it and my trial runs out :) I use Cubase 12 and Nuendo 12 for my 7.1.4 but need the Atmos Render external to go to 9.1.6. ... My setup was not cheep but not as much as you think... I am more than happy to chat regarding any thing studio wise and help if i can..

[@studiovinden]

@@QFXmusic Wow, I would not have thought that binaural is solely how a mix is considered by the labels. 🤯 But let me ask you this, in your setup, do you find that there are aspects of the speaker environment that is overkill when mixing music (as opposed to mixing for video)? I'm guessing that the center speaker is not heavily used for e.g. vocals but more a reinforced kick, sn and bass, perhaps? And that the rear surrounds are not carrying a heavy load either, mostly ambience and secondary musical elements or effects?

[@QFXmusic]

@@studiovinden I think a lot of producers and engineers who mixing in Atmos at the min are not utilizing the rears as much as they will be in the future.. Listening to Atmos content from Apple in 7.1.4 you can here who is playing it safe and who is going big.. For me the people who are mixing modern commercial music seem to be going all out and those who are mixing traditional records and big artist are staying almost exactly to the stereo mix with a little bit of stuff moving around.. I have found Artists like Edd shearen are doing amazing atmos mixes.. But a lot of of the brake out artists are going all out too.. I have yet to actually finish my 1st Atmos mix and deliver it to the stores lol Just got to many stereo mixes to finish 1st.. Which leads me on to the growing amount of producers now mixing Atmos 1st and folding down to stereo 2nd which i have been told has amazing results.. When i am writing now i am always thinking of the Atmos mix so you have the content for the atmos mix.. I believe Atmos will change where everyone will eventually everyone will write Atmos then the stereo will be the fold down every time.. The amount of hours i have been mixing Atmos is a pure joy being able to put things above to the side and the rear is so much fun ... You still have to try keep the thing clued together lol and it can be challenging as you are having so much fun.

[@andreas-franke]

Last Week the Dolby Atmos Composer by Fiedler Audio came out. You can do DA in any DAW with it.

[@somedood6621]

Interested to see where this goes, please keep us updated on youtube... subscribed!

[@collinscassel]

Right on brother. Love this go for it!

[@matt_nyc_audioengineer]

I'm talking to my Sweetwater rep now about an Atmos rig. I'm doing it on the smallest budget possible but I have to spend a bit more than 1k. I mix full time professionally but I'm trying to keep it under 5k. I'll be happy to pass along anything I lear that I think would help.

[@HalcyonGuitars]

I saw a vid from Fabien something or other about a plug in that will let you mix atmos in any daw, windows or Mac. He also suggested that nearly everyone will only ever hear it Binaural. How many people are actually gonna stuff a 9.1.6 setup in their TV room?

[@HalcyonGuitars]

@@CraigScottFrost It was Fiedler Audio ATMOS Compser, plus ATMOS Beam, both plugins that will let you mix atmos with any DAW, without any fancy hardware…

[@TazzSmk]

given the fact one of biggest advertisers of Atmos being Apple, I'd say it makes more sense to get cheap Mac Mini with Logic Pro X, which provides full-featured Atmos tools (also different results than Dolby Atmos Renderer), no need to hurry though, there is no Atmos standard right now, once you start taking into account things like Binaural, reverbs, automation etc... it results in huge unexpected mess on listener's side...

[@IlSinistero]

Well, to get your songs „ready“ for the Apple Music requirements doing a stereo mix and than panning the stems in Cubase will absolutely do the trick. Apples algorithm will just check if it’s a Dolby Atmos mix, not if it’s a really good one 😅 and youre right, most will listen to it binaural, so doing the panning with headphones should be absolutely okay. I have 3 pairs of monitor speakers, but I will not go fully Atmos 1. space, I don’t have it. 2. I also would need an audiointerface with enough outputs, for the standard 7.1.4 Atmos setup that‘ll be 12 and that gets expansive 3. do really check the mix then outside of the DAW, I would also need a 7.1.4 Receiver which are also not very cheap - at least at the moment. So to end my thought, like I said, doing a good stereo mix than panning it to all the Atmos channels and monitoring it binaural with headphones will be enough for me - and should I really have a song that’s so important to me, paying a studio to do an Atmos mix is also an option.

[@JotaSotodiaz]

I feel you man, to me at the beginning I felt that this was a way to get all the small players out and bring work back to the big studios that can afford the tech. But also exiting about how music can be created in unlimited ways. I am in the same boat seeing if my music is even worth inventing…

[@studiovinden]

Your music is always worth inventing, be it in mono, stereo or spatial audio! If you want to join the discussion regarding #atmosguerillamixing, I've started a discord channel where it's really easy to have a conversation and share things. discord.com/channels/1088350647813947453/1088350648262742028

[@JotaSotodiaz]

@@studiovinden I am going in the whole Apple route. switching to Logic Pro and buying Airpod max. That's the cheapest solution I found for now.

[@studiovinden]

@@JotaSotodiaz Nice, I've been archiving multitracks from a studio I had very early in my career and I have to use Emagic(!) Logic 5.5.1 (I'm on Windows) to open the session files, very far from Logic Pro of today. But Atmos really is a balancing act, I don't want to abandon Reaper so that becomes a prerequisite for my approach. And I'm not convinced that the binaural monitoring is the best way forward, I find speakers much more enjoyable to mix stereo on but that's one of the things I want to investigate. ✌️ I kind of get the reasoning that everyone listens in headphones so maybe mixing should (or at least could) be performed on headphones. But headphones have been the main listening environment for most people for a long time and not all the big time pros are exclusively on headphones (yet?). And mixing on headphones is something else than checking from the consumer headphone perspective as a final check (which is what I do). But it's that just a question of time? I don't know. 🤓

[@QFXmusic]

@@JotaSotodiaz Don't sell you or your music short... everyone has a place in the world of making music... and its great for the soul and your well being :) just enjoy it and i am sure other people will too

[@JotaSotodiaz]

@@QFXmusic Everyone has an audience it just hard to find them lol thanks for your words.

[@santamonicaupclose9067]

Hi! I think you hit the nail on the head, lets share info on trying out some alternative, lower cost discreet speaker Atmos installs. I'm in the process of hooking up various speakers I've accumulated over time to an old Yamaha receiver that has discreet multi-channel pre-amp inputs, and driving it from logic and my existing 16 channels of D/A output. On a more focused topic, though, what about the 2.0 or "binaural" Atmos renders? I've just started listening to Atmos cuts on AppleMusic, and am not exactly hearing "spatial" audio. I'd say just a bit wider left/right image, and a bit more front/back "space" - but definitely not what I'd call 3D. Some Atmos re-mixes of classic mixes are actually worse mixes (to me) than the original outstanding stereo versions - a bit wider, but just kind of burying key parts/instruments/vocals compared to the original classic mixes. More later as I learn more. - Paul from Los Angeles

[@studiovinden]

I could not agree more! It's kind of frustrating that we have no idea of if Atmos is really going to fly and if we should choose to be a part of it. I feel you on not being blown away by the binaural renders on headphones, still I'm thinking that maybe it's just a matter of getting used to a softer, more atmospheric sound stage compared with the wall of sound in stereo. What really gets me agitated though, is the thought of playing a song on a pair of speakers and being presented the binaural render or an automatic mixdown of the Atmos mix! As long as there is always a separate stereo mix I'd be happy with Atmos as an alternative. Unfortunately the focus seems to be only on headphones, I've even heard stories of record labels only using the binaural render to ok a release (i.e. there is no separate stereo mix), that seems insane to me. I have no first hand info on this though so I'd love input on that.

[@zootook3422]

I couldn't see any comments on sound card cost? Did you already have a 12 channel sound card? And what about listening to other peoples mixes from Tidal or Apple Music on your system as reference? Kind of important IMHO. That's also a challenge and a potential huge cost. But yeah, I'm exactly in the same position trying to upgrade my bedroom mix studio to Atmos on a shoestring. Regarding "rules" for speaker placement Dolbys guides are somewhat difficult to understand but on the other hand the speaker placement is still very important for the experience. To have speakers too far apart e.g and the panning in between them will not work. The "guideline" language of Dolby I interpret that in relation to that they are used to deal with cinema owners looking for using the Dolby brand. That's why it has a bit of authoritarian vibe, I believe. I see them more like a help guide to make it sound good. You have new subscriber!

[@domejunky]

I saw the same video - been thinking along the same lines

[@amendippanesar]

I'm in the same situation, slowly migrating over to Cubase because I don't want to go back to MAC

[@cinemaipswich4636]

I think that Dolby is in DaVinci Resolve. They give a 3D map to place and move sound sources. It is in the studio version, and it might be in the free version.

[@studiovinden]

The native Atmos rendering seems to not be available in the free version: professionalsupport.dolby.com/s/article/Can-I-use-the-free-version-of-DaVinci-Resolve-for-Atmos-workflows?language=en_US It seems like a good way to get into Atmos for cinema but I've seen comments about moving away from Davinci for the lack of automation features, I'm guessing there are other music workflow related features where Cubase is more suitable. As I just needed to upgrade my Cubase license, it was the sensible choice for me.

[@markmorgenstern]

Yess!! following. But I don't think you should do the stereo first; the whole bonus of the atmos workflow is to not have to do multiple mixes but trust the atmos downmixer. Many of the film mixers I've talked with advocate it even if you're not finishing in atmos: they say tha a 5.1 rendered from an amos master sounds better than something originally mixed in 5.1, and I'd expect that to be true of binaural or even stereo. Failing that, they will try selling it to you as a future-proof archival format... (of course nothing is really futureproof, eh)

[@studiovinden]

In the long term you have a point but I think it's evident from listening to a lot of binaural Atmos that it's rare that it sounds better than the stereo version. So either the binaural renderer needs to improve or our skills need to improve, probably both. For me it's a combination of things that point me in the stereo first direction. I have yet to be asked to do an Atmos mix by a client, it's all stereo for me. I'm used to stereo and chances are that I'll make better stereo mixes for quite some time. Following with Atmos seems like a reasonable way to transition. I also have a room that's optimized for stereo as well as more expensive speakers as L-R. Given my budget constraints, it makes sense to use the L-R to ensure the best sound for each element and trust these decisions when expanding the panning into Atmos. But that said, I'm also intrigued by the mixdown possibilities. I have a nice 5.1 home cinema but updating that to Atmos would require a new AVR. Before doing that, I'll definitely try the downmix functionality. The Dolby Atmos speaker test mp4 file plays back nicely if inserted into the USB port of my bluray player (converted into DD+) but a lot of content (tops, side surrounds, rear surrounds) ends up in the surround speakers. It'll be interesting how a proper music mix fares when that happens.

[@markmorgenstern]

@@studiovinden I suspect that a lot of the binaural atmos we hear is not much better than stereo because in the music world it's way more debatable than in the film world (i.e. centre channel/no centre channel, as you mention elsewhere) so it's very possible that what I describe above for 5.1 downmixes doesn't apply as well to stereo or binaural - I haven't tried that except with Sound Particles. For your home system, I have the same problem, but instead of buying a new receiver and getting stuck on that rotating obsolescence and expense, I was gonna keep my present receiver, use a second one for the height channels using direct ins in on both, and I was looking at a separate atmos decoder: most of those are really expensive, but Emotiva has one down near $1400... that may be the budget way in.

[@studiovinden]

@@markmorgenstern I know, those Atmos decoder prices are ludicrous. I've been pondering upgrading my Marantz to a used Atmos receiver as they've been around for almost ten years but not sure if I'm fooling myself when thinking that a 9.2 Atmos receiver from 2015 will suffice for the decoding (two extra amp channels will also be needed). For now I'm focusing on my studio setup, video coming soon as I got the last piece in the puzzle today. 💥 Also, even though the majority of binaural mixes sound awful to my ears, there are some that I like. So hopefully this is case of too much, too soon (rather than the technology being lacking) as people have been remixing for Atmos but not knowing what they've been doing. Tom Sawyer by Rush and, to my surprise, 72 Seasons by Metallica both sound really good - powerful but also with an extra dimension. I also like Steve Genewick's jazz work and Revolver by Giles Martin but I'm not sure if that is just because they're not hardpanned anymore. Any tips on mixes you like?

[@stevewills735]

I know a lot of guys threw up their hands and said "I'm done" when the big streaming guys decided to mandate this. I had to take a step back myself and wonder if it was worth the $ to even pursue my studio upgrade. I just feel like musicians are so nickel and dimed right now that this could implode what musicians we have left to even move forward. This video at least calmed me down a bit. I wonder if all DAW's will still running a native atmos version soon.? I also wonder if there is any benefit in hearing punk rock , and death metal in atmos!!? ha ha ha cheers

[@studiovinden]

Glad to hear that it helped you calm down! I don't know if Atmos will take off but the more I research it, the clearer it becomes that there is a big rift between Top-40 pop and the reissuing of old records in one end and the small to mid sized bands/producers in the other. While the Atmos change is pushed hard to create new copyright claims for old records for the big labels and the spatial audio is yet another of Apple's (successful) attempts to retain customers in their Apple universe, I don't think the little guy will be very affected necessarily. Stereo seems like it will be here to stay for a considerable time and also, a lot of people are doing stereo first, then using Atmos as a super charged stereo version, putting real emphasis on making the stereo and binaural mixdown sounding very similar to the stereo version. So only doing stereo is still very viable, I think. Now, there are a lot of questions that I (does anyone?) don't know the answer to. Will Atmos be the prioritized format (with stereo as an automatic mixdown) anytime soon? Tidal has both Atmos and true stereo versions side by side while Apple seem to have only one where you switch between versions (maybe someone knows if the stereo is a mixdown or true stereo?). The spotlight is also on some of the top names doing electronic music where a true immersive mix is feasible with production elements flying around the room. For band music, the stereo legacy is very influential, I don't think that's changing any time soon. Also, is the binaural render good enough to make people actively choose it over stereo (given that most listeners listen on headphones)? The jury's definitely out on that one, or they will be once Atmos is available everywhere. Spotify doesn't have Atmos and KZbin doesn't and according to available data that's how the majority of listeners stream music today. So Atmos is very fun for us audio nerds, it can sound cool if done right and doesn't have to cost an arm and a leg but will it stick? 🤗

[@chrisrsp2025]

I'm wondering why Someone can't get like 7-9 Yamaha HS5 monitors and use those in an Atmos system? Why wouldn't this work? As long as they are connected to the main box correctly. just curious to know is all no harm meant!!

[@studiovinden]

This would absolutely work! I'd love to hear your thoughts on what you want to do in Atmos, the more I research and try out myself, it feels like it's not about adhering to a technical standard, it's about getting creative with what you've got, just as I hoped. Go for it! ✌️

[@inkaking74]

Fantastic

[@ryanpeplinski1884]

I wouldn’t worry about it. There will likely be AI or online mastering/rendering conversion services out there.

[@studiovinden]

Not entirely sure what you mean, are you saying that we don't need to think about Atmos, keep doing stereo and a future service will be available to do an upmix/conversion to a spatial format? Or am I reading too much into your comment? 😊

[@studiovinden]

@@CraigScottFrost I know there are tools that from e.g. Nugen and Izotope that goes both ways, either upmixing a stereo signal into something spatial or extracting elements of a mix to some degree. While this could be interesting I think there will be a difference between intentional mixes made from multitrack recordings and the AI generated content based on existing stereo. With that in mind, your "I wouldn't worry about it" statement is something I don't fully agree with.

[@SoundScienceMediaWorks]

I like it a lot. I’m down to go into this journey. Is there a discord set up to share information. ?

[@studiovinden]

Sure, it's here: discord.gg/4JVFTDfr Basically just me collecting info at the moment but I think it could be a nice little way of keeping the best info in one place. I'd love to see other people sharing their strategies there as well. 👍

[@oscarpatxot659]

Can you hear comercial atmos content in your current setup? How?

[@jklappenbach]

Can someone post a link to Apple's requirements? I've been searching, but haven't found it.

[@mhenkka]

Get Dolby Atmos Composer?

[@arabiancryptoman]

Nice

[@kaislivesoundchannel4706]

You can easily work on headphones, Andrew Scheps did it a long time and most people will listen to it like that anyway.

[@studiovinden]

I find that working in Atmos on speakers vs headphones is entirely different experiences, I much prefer doing it in speakers. I'm also not convinced as your reasoning would mean that it would be just as good to monitor stereo mixing on a small bluetooth speaker as that is how most people listen to music anyway. ;) But headphones is of course an easy way of getting started, I just find it to be quite disappointing whereas Atmos in speakers can be pretty extraordinary.

[@kaislivesoundchannel4706]

@@studiovinden I hear you, I was just thinking about starting on a budget.

[@kaislivesoundchannel4706]

@@studiovinden Oh and by the way, I always check my mixes on little bluetooth speakers😉

[@studiovinden]

@@kaislivesoundchannel4706 Yeah, for checking mixes, absolutely. But imagine performing the mix on that Bluetooth speaker 🤣 - that is how I feel about the state of binaural Atmos. I know that headphones is seen as an option, even using the Apple Airpods Max/Logic Pro as an example of a budget Atmos Apple option. Those headphones are $600 in Sweden and in my experience not worth it. For anyone reading, I would definitely save the money and use it towards a cheaper speaker setup.

[@TerryFisher]

I'm starting the journey as well. Here is a link to some info I found useful. He uses Studio One, but the info can be applied to any DAW. kzbin.info/www/bejne/rHjXZ3V7n9-YnLM

[@studiovinden]

Thanks for the link! I've seen some of his videos also, very educational, I like his ideas on create multiple stereo reverbs to create space across the speaker dimensions. I've created a discord channel to facilitate a more fluid discussion, please join if you want: discord.com/channels/1088350647813947453/1088350648262742028

[@QFXmusic]

@@studiovinden Michael is a great source and very knowledgeable on everything spatial audio.. and he also uses many platforms cubase and Nuendo. He is a very clever guy and we can learn a lot form him :)

[@morleychallenged]

RISE AGAINST!

[@grotteko]

Nu borde du kunna köra alltihop i Reaper med Dolby Atmos Composer! Har inte testat så länge än men verkar lovande! Video här: kzbin.info/www/bejne/eGOsqn93rMmYqbs

[@timschannel247]

Why should anybody of us home studio guys concern about atmos? This topic makes me angry, as I see apple is pushing this as one of more things as to make investors lucky with stuff nobody really cares. These is failure by design. Guys for hollywoood can use that. Apple? These guys are designing more and more stuff just which is impracticable for normal usage. This is just insanely useless to put all of your money that you have to the investors. Would please anybody show me a club having DJs mixing only with dolby atmos tracks? I am very very excited! Thanks for your contribution

[@Sheriffvlogs]

U don't have to use a Mac and spend thousands of pounds on expensive Mac if u want to mix in Atmos.

[@Sheriffvlogs]

U can mix in Atmos than export stereo mix from the ADM Richard👇 is doing the same thing kzbin.info/www/bejne/oKrCoqSea6ymotE

[@studiovinden]

Now that was an awesome webinar, thank you for that link!

[@atcordice]

Buy nuendo and save yourself some money

[@studiovinden]

How do you mean? Do you find that the support for the Dolby renderer and import of ADM files is worth the $400 upgrade cost from Cubase? Or have I overseen some other difference?

[@PacifierMusic]

I unsubscribed from Colt Capperrune after he put out that video. I think he’s just trying to appease the big gear stores. Atmos isn’t really that different. The average consumer doesn’t really care about it.

[@morleychallenged]

ATMOS imagines that any of us will help them push us around. We are musicians. We are not slaves. We are not content providers for their sampling-coolio racketeers. Maybe, if we could just learn to abuse each-other differently, if it became too stressful for us and our families and communities.

[@massivebeatzz]

Dolby Atmos will never succeed. It has been 5 years and people don't even talk about it. It;s a brand , not a technology. Stereo is. Just like Crossfit is not a sport, but some guy created a club. But what will succeed is Spatial Audio, where all brands use the same principle. Like stereo... It will be great for films and soudn design. Music? It will be like 3D TVs...cool concept - but will die at the home front. A violin that pops up behind you and scares the crap out of you? NO! Standing in the middle of an orchestra like it is chaos? NO! Star Wars spaceship fights from all sides, below, above...HECK YES!