Attempting an Approach with the GFC 500 Autopilot- Piper Dakota Flight

Today I went up and tried to shoot a gps approach with the Garmin GFC 500 autopilot. Things didn't quite go as planned, but it was nice to get back up in the air!

[@sagobhago]

I always press APR once I pass IAF and am at the altitude listed between IAF and FAF. It works every time. The plane does not descend if APR is pressed at any altitude higher than that altitude. My instructor and I had the same problem of plane not descending but we figured it out. I loved your video and like others said we are all not perfect and we learn from each other. Thank you

[@kyliepug753]

I love the brutal honesty in your videos....not editing out the actual problems. Those shares are valuable :).

[@CamCarr]

Thank you for the kind comment! I value honesty and transparency, as we are all imperfect humans. 🙂

[@ross100000]

Love your sit-up except your auto pilot location ! Thank you for the nice video

[@CamCarr]

Thank you Ross, I appreciate the support. I wasn’t a fan of the AP location at first, but I have assimilated pretty well!

[@ross100000]

@@CamCarr anytime buddy keep it up, it’s just my opinion. if it’s in the middle it will be really nice and easy to know what selection your on for both pilots

[@boreas22]

Great Video! Greetings from Portugal!

[@CamCarr]

Thank you!

[@guidedhand]

You have a very honest communication style many good teaching years ahead for you! I think, if your nose is pointing more then a 90 degree intercept to the approach course the autopilot won’t arm the GP. The autopilot won’t let you descend, with APR activated, if your heading away from the airport.

[@CamCarr]

Thank you! I have wondered what the threshold is for the intercept pattern. I’ll definitely apply this to the next time I do instrument flying!

[@kimrettenmaier533]

Cam, I went out today and flew the RNAV 18 into Bolivar. I have the GFC 500 autopilot but 430W navigator. With the approach loaded the 430 will activate the approach when you go Direct to IAF (JIBOG since I came from KJEF). I usually push the APR button when cleared for the approach but today I did it 15 miles out and while still at 4500 ft. just to see if it would arm the approach that far out. It did. The autopilot made all the turns and captured the glide path perfectly. I assumed you have figured this out already.

[@CamCarr]

I’m glad to hear that you were in the area! And yes, I’ve had time to figure the autopilot out a little more but I still learn new things every time I go up.

[@waytooslow]

Awesome Dakota. I have been trying to learn the 500 in the clubs Warrior 2. So weird to take my hands off the yoke.

[@HellbenderSTL]

Bolivar, MO?? Nice to see a fellow Missourian. Hoping to start the process of getting my PPL sometime!

[@CamCarr]

Yes! I would highly recommend getting at least your private! Although it’s expensive and takes a lot of time, it’s by far one of the most rewarding things I’ve perused. Thanks for watching, Liam!

[@mattmiller1843]

As others have mentioned you need to hit the approach button well before the final approach fix. I sometimes activate it 15 miles before the initial fix if cleared. If you don’t activate it early it will not descend.

[@Aviator_Outlaw]

I fly an SR20 with the same autopilot. Pressing APR button doesn't immediately activate the approach and climb for the glide path, it just arms it. It won't actually activate until the glide path is intercepted, and if you're doing the ILS it's the same way for the localizer. What I do is when I'm cleared for the approach is just immediately hit the APR button and it'll start it's descent once it gets that glidepath while still functioning on nav, heading, and VS mode normally. You've probably figured this out already since this was posted 2 years ago but figured I would still go ahead and comment lol.

[@dwightconnor6369]

Nice plane ✈️

[@CamCarr]

Thanks Dwight! I’m very blessed that my dad lets me fly it. Thanks for the comment!

[@MrGsheperd]

If the system starts to think you’re getting slow, the ESP stall protection will engage. It’s supposed to turn off under a certain alt or you can manually turn it off on the G5 that drives the AP.

[@CamCarr]

Thanks Shaun, I'll definitely have to turn it off because it frequently kicks in, especially when I practice short field landings right on the envelope of a stall. Ideally I'd like to get it back to the avionics shop and have the speed lowered a little bit, because I do feel that the feature adds a safety component. But for now when it's trying to push me to the ground when I am only at 300 ft agl, it's doing more harm than good. Take care!

[@ga1205]

@@CamCarr it would benefit you to watch some training videos. Hold in the a/p yolke button while doing a stall or steep turn maneuver to temporarily disengage ESP.

[@CamCarr]

@@ga1205 thanks, I didn’t realize that the button would also disable ESP. There is also an easy way to disable it through the G5, which is helpful as well!

[@s35flyer]

You have to engage appr more than 2 miles from the faf. You could’ve engaged it at the first waypoint, Ollie I think it was.

[@alexandre3975]

Usually the LOC would allow the aircraft to fly the glideslope without you doing anything. If airport is both ILS and LOC equipped there's no reasons for it not to work. You should activate LOC first, then when captured, activate APPR so the aircraft will fly the glideslope accordingly. Also, this particular RNAV approach is probably not equipped with the vertical guidance. I'm sure you'll figure it out and looking forward to watch you nail that approach :)

[@CamCarr]

This RNAV does have vertical guidance, but I’m sure that I didn’t have something properly configured. Thanks for watching Alexandre! :)

[@aaronbornfleth]

11:40 was that an instance of uncommanded pitch trim? Possibly the same type of uncommanded pitch trim the latest SB on that auto pilot is talking about?

[@CamCarr]

I think it was a combination of 2 factors. The stall speed programmed into the G5 (I believe it’s the published stall speed) is too high, so it caused the stall recovery system to kick in about 5 knots before a stall. I would assume it’s the stall speed at max gross weight. I also don’t think I had the airport programmed into the gps. If it knows that you’re on short final and landing at an airport, this system won’t kick in. Luckily you can override it with brute force or by holding the AP disconnect button, but the programmed speeds are definitely something that people need to take into consideration - it would be terrifying to be in that situation in IMC and not know what was happening.

[@MissouriClarkLife]

Wow, your autopilot sounds really cool. Must be a lot to learn on a system like that!! Great video and very well recorded!!

[@CamCarr]

Thanks Kevin!

[@cramersclassics]

Well done. Excellent audio and video. Try turning down the music a bit, like many videos its too loud.

[@CamCarr]

Thank you for the support and for the suggestion! I would agree that the music is too loud, and I have since tried to keep that in mind when making new videos. Thanks again!

[@sokalsophia4687]

LOOOOOOVE YOUR PANEL, AIRPLANE! SOOOOO COOL, WHAT HAPPENED W THE AP PUSHING YOU DOWN??

[@CamCarr]

Thank you! As far as I understand, when you come in low or don’t have the airport selected in the GPS, the stability system kicks in to prevent a stall. It surprises me, but you can overpower it

[@bobbysnow5478]

If is has not been mentioned you need to set your ALT to the missed approach point to get the GP to work!

[@CamCarr]

Yes, I found that out the next time I attempted the coupled approach. Thanks Bobby!

[@bobbysnow5478]

@@CamCarr thank you for the response. The Garmin system can be a distraction for actual flying of aircraft but offer the potential of a safer flight, but you do have to fly the autopilot, it will not fly the aircraft on its own, as you demonstrated.

[@CamCarr]

Very true

[@Hatchetmansss]

Did you ever get your GFC 500 to do approach. If you did would like to meet you at M17 and we can talk about it. I'm having same problem and thats my home Airport also.

[@CamCarr]

Hey Roy- Personally I have not, but I have identified what I did wrong during this approach. My dad has successfully shot a coupled approach with the airplane, doing the RNAV18 approach. I didn’t have the MDA programmed in the altitude preselect before reaching the initial approach point, so the vertical guidance didn’t kick in. I would not be a good person to learn this from, since I’m still learning the system myself. If you’d like, I can refer you to some excellent flight instructors in the area though!

[@josephwesley1191]

Is this something I can install in my little Cherokee 140? What does this GFC 500 cost approximately installed?

[@CamCarr]

You could outfit this in a 140. I can’t speak on price though, because it will vary by location, and your current avionics configuration. I will highly recommend Butler Avionics in Olathe Ks if you’re nearby. They do great work!

[@peterderidder6549]

I am installing the gfc500 in my 140. I also have 2 G5 and a gtn650.

[@ranmar773]

Cam, I thought you did okay with the approach, especially since the autopilot kept engaging when you didn't want it to. Give yourself time - it will become easier as you use it more. Take care - a former aviator from St. Louis.

[@CamCarr]

Thanks Randy! I’ve definitely got a lot to learn, and I’m sure working towards my instrument rating will clarify some of the gray areas. Thanks for watching!

[@peterderidder6549]

Oil pressure is indicating a bit high.

[@scottfranco1962]

So at 8:07 you have GP (Glide PATH not SLOPE) armed, its "GP" in white. You are also OVER the glidepath at that point. I think you must have been APR engaged, since I don't think it will arm the GP without it. Plus (I checked the manual just now), the G5 does not display the APR status, you have to look at the light above it. at 7:57, you didn't have the white GP (armed), but the GP slope indicator was there, and you are a dot or so under the GP. By your comments, you seemed to have engaged the APR mode just as you flew over the GP (you are now a dot high). No no no no no. You engage approach mode long before you hit the glideslope. Like you can engage it miles away. You want the white GP (selected) while you are under the glideslope, then it will capture it as you fly into it. It will flash green, then steady green, meaning it has now engaged following the glideslope. What you did would have worked, but you engaged APR AFTER you flew above the glideslope. If you had decended back into the glideslope, you would have seen it engage as well as if you flew up through it. However, remember what your instructor always told you as he/she was hitting you with the ruler? Always approach the glideslope/path from underneath. For glideSLOPES (ILS) this is how you make sure you are not following a false glideslope. GlidePATHs don't have that issue, but the advice is the same, because you DON'T WANT TO DIVE ON YOUR GLIDEPATH. Have a good time and enjoy the GFC 500. I am still getting used to mine.

[@CamCarr]

Hey Scott, thanks for the info. I definitely have a lot of learning to do with this system. I'm not instrument rated yet, but I'd just like to have the ability to shoot an approach in the event that I somehow get put in a sticky situation. I'll take note of what you've said and apply it to the next time I try to shoot one! I appreciate the advice. Safe flying my friend!

[@guidedhand]

You have a very honest communication style many good teaching years ahead for you! I think, if your nose is pointing more then a 90 degree intercept to the approach course the autopilot won’t arm the GP. The autopilot won’t let you descend, with APR activated, if your heading away from the airport.

[@backcountyrpilot]

What Scott said about arming the GP with the APR button……plus, you need to twist the altitude lower than you are or else the AP won’t descend. You can do this while approaching the waypoint where you’ll start each descent. I read-up on and wrestled with this for days on my RV8 with GFC 500, G3x, GPS 400W before discovering that I could hit APR as soon as cleared by ATC. In other words, before even reaching the IAF when out practicing in VMC. I found I could also capture the glide slope as far as a few straight-in waypoints from the FAF. (Not that this is proper, but it was interesting). Note-I am a VFR pilot.

[@scottfranco1962]

I have spent a lot of time with the GFC-500 since I wrote this. My instructor does not believe in using the AP, so I have settled into the plan of flying approaches and departures as fully automated as I can to get practice with the AP. Here is a smattering of what I learned. Missed approach button: mine is right next to the throttle, which is the most common place for it. It makes sense, if you have to scoot you are going to want to hit the throttle and the TOGA button together. Unfortunately, it is very easy to hit by accident. The result is an AP that "goes crazy", trying to pitch up and aborting your approach or whatever you are doing. The most reliable counter to that is to hit the blue button, which levels the A/C in both pitch and roll while you sort it out. However, I am coming to the conclusion that if you hit the TOGA button anywhere in the final approach, its best to just go with it and go missed. You aren't going to sort it out in time, and best to go back and give it another try. I have learned to stop resting my hand on the locking collar for the throttle, which is very close to the TOGA switch. Modes: The AP does not appreciate mixed modes. For example being in HDG mode and hitting NAV or APR lights both up and gives you... well I have not figured out what, but it is not good, and not what you want. Cancel the mode by hitting HDG off then go for the NAV or APR modes. Pitch to HDG to APR/NAV: My standard flow on practice approaches is pitch/wings level, the mode by default on TOGA or if all modes are cancelled (TOGA is pitch up, cancel is hold current pitch/bank). This allows you time to sort out the end of the approach, get the flaps off (bleed not cancel!), take off carb heat etc, and gain altitude. Then it is sync the heading (should have already done that on the approach!) and hit HDG mode and turn back for the next approach. Then past the FAF at proper altitude, re-enable vectors to final, hit HDG off and APR on. the AP will do the rest, turn to the final, intercept, and fly the approach. GS/GP intercept. Forget intercepting a glideslope/path from above. I have tried it many times. Just forget about it. If the GS/GP marker comes alive and you are above it, it's a missed and try again. You will just dive for the GS/GP, and even if you make it you will be on it but not stablized. Just give up. So what is the right way? in the leg before the FAF, that is the time to get stable. For me it's bleed speed, flaps 10, about 90kt. With practice, that can be done with the AP on all the way. If the A/C is stable before the GS/GP intercept, the APR mode will track it and its miller time. Your main task is managing the power for those up and down drafts on final. There are always up and down drafts on final. Remember fly INTO the glideslope/glidepath (from below) not ONTO it. Practice the missed, too. It took me a while to get comfortable with the TOGA missed. It seems too steep a pitch, and it would be if you don't have full power. After a lot of practice I trust TOGA now. And that's a good thing since the missed is a busy time. And TOGA does the right thing. Up and away on runway heading, even if you didn't set the DG correctly. Use cumulative mode: On my 430, cumulative mode needs to be selected. Cum mode means you get the actual milage to all points in the flight plan, not each waypoint with the distance between them, a mode so amazingly useless I can't believe it. The bonus of cum mode is that, if you leave the flight plan screen up, just about the time you need to announce your distance on frequency for the practice approach, it will sequence in the flight plan, with the correct runway distance. One less thing to do in your head. Going to altitude: The oldest rule with APs is, IAS mode up, VS mode down. For me with the 430, VNAV does nothing at all. I put black tape over the buttons that are inop on my setup so it is less confusing. The flow is: select the target altitude with the right knob, then decide how you want to get there, IAS or VS mode. This, suprisingly at first, does absolutely nothing, since the IAS will match whatever you are indicating, and the VS mode will be 0 by default. So now you use the pitch wheel to set the IAS (pitch up) or VS (pitch down). I always climb about 80, its a good climb angle, then you need power to back it up. For VS, it depends on how far you are going (leg) as to what VS is required. I suppose overdoing it by default is not a bad plan, meaning always 500fpm down is the default for me. It is not a problem if the next waypoint altitude is in there. Which leads to the next point. Always have a target in mind. whether the AP is on or off, it helps greatly if you always have the target direction and altitude set. This means that the AP and you share the idea of where you are going. Further, any time you are in NAV or APR mode, the DG heading needs to go somewhere, usually synced with the NAV heading. It means hit the sync button constantly (pressing the left hand knob, HDG/TRK). Why? "Cessna 123 Bark Bark fly heading 270". Spin HDG/TRK, hit HDG button. This is better than panic, hit AP disconnect, comply with heading and watch the 747 zip by. Regards, Scott Franco

[@stevenpaulsnyder]

You are not putting the autopilot into APP mode soon enough. I have nearly the same setup in a Dakota and it works flawless.

[@CamCarr]

Steven- thanks for the info. I’ll definitely try to engage APP sooner.

[@godscherokeedakota6849]

Once you are in heading mode heading to glide path you can go ahead and press apr button then when you hit glide path the AP will automatically line plane up and soon you will hit glide slope and your descent will happen. I have one of these and it’s off the chain

[@keithbonanza6192]

IIRC you are not suppose to engage until 800'

[@WyldThymes]

Cam, Did you ever get it to fly the full approach correctly? It might not be you. I am having the same issue with my GFC500 (w/3 Servos) /GTN650xi/Gl275 system - that I put in my 182 back in March. I'm working with Garmin and my installer now to figure it out. it has become less reliable over time. My system WILL NOT Initiate the descent from the IAF (GPS or ILS), even though I'm doing everything by the book (Approach loaded and activated (650), Approach mode selected (500), and Altitude bugged for the DH/MDA). I have to manually (using V/S) get it down to the GP or GS Intercept altitude and only then will fly the GS/GP. Course direction is never the problem only the descent. Not a lot of owners have this system so there's not a lot of feed back on KZbin or the blogs. Once I get mine working I'm going to post a "HOW TO" video on my channel (Wylde Thymes Aviation) and discuss what was causing the problem. I'll keep you posted.

[@CamCarr]

Awesome. I would appreciate the update. I haven’t tried the RWY 18 approach since this video, but I have executed the RWY 36 approach with no issues. Makes me wonder if something is wrong for that specific approach in the system, but I’m not sure.

[@bill4251]

Thanks for the response. So just to confirm, when you flew the RNAV 36 approach the AP initiated the descent correctly when you arrived at the IAF down to you MDA? Did you bug your MDA prior to the IAF?

[@CamCarr]

@@bill4251 yes. I bugged my MDA prior to reaching the IAF. That’s what I failed to do in the video, which is probably why I didn’t get lateral guidance on the AP during that approach.

[@bill4251]

@@CamCarr Awesome. Thank you so much for the feedback this is VERY helpful in troubleshooting mine! P.S. enjoyed your videos! Keep up the good work.

[@CamCarr]

@@bill4251 thanks Bill, I appreciate the support!

[@ronlea6625]

Meaning mike and Richard

[@s35flyer]

FYI illegal to engage ap below 800’

[@CamCarr]

14 CFR 135.93 states “No person may use an autopilot for takeoff or initial climb below the higher of 500 feet or an altitude that is no lower than twice the altitude loss specified in the Airplane Flight Manual (AFM), except as follows “

[@s35flyer]

@@CamCarr No, read the STC it’s right there. I could care less but just trying to help.

[@CamCarr]

@@s35flyer gotcha. I didn’t know that

[@s35flyer]

@@CamCarr I also did not know that CFR. Odd that they are in conflict, good question for garmin. And I’m a big fan of the Dakota, I have a vtail, but always admired the capabilities of the Dakota.

[@cprice5555]

Good video. Would be better without the irritating noise on top of your presentation.

[@Captndarty]

Terrible terrible spot for the auto pilot. Whoever built that panel skimped out. If you’re going to spend money on bits and pieces of glass GPS and auto pilot the whole thing should’ve been redone

[@CamCarr]

I really like it, honestly. That’s where the previous autopilot was, and that spot works very well for me. It’s easy reach, with the only downside being that the person in the right seat can’t reach it

[@Captndarty]

@@CamCarr well then you would hate any conventional standard layout for an IFR package fully loaded….

[@robertyoung7073]

Nice video! I am just picking my PA28-140 up next week after he GFC500 install. I have my AP controller at the bottom of the radio stack. I think the STC standard location for the PA28 models is that lower left location where this one is.

[@mikefromflorida8357]

Not impressed with the aircraft or the operator.

[@CamCarr]

That’s fine, everyone I’d entitled to their own opinions!

[@richardheinichen8279]

I would not fly with you.

[@CamCarr]

That’s perfectly fine, everyone is entitled to their own opinion!

[@jamesberbrich6440]

I'd fly with you Cam. You are very aware of your surroundings and very proficient with your aircraft, except not the autopilot just yet. Thats not an issue either because you aren't afraid to practice, and practice makes perfect. Keep at it and ignore the rude people.

[@CamCarr]

@@jamesberbrich6440 thanks James. I appreciate the support! I’ve had time to get proficient with the autopilot in VFR conditions and it’s very handy and accurate. I imagine I’ll nail down on the approaches when doing my instrument rating. I appreciate the kind words!