Audiophile preamps - What should you get for $30,000?

[@ScottGrammer]

What should you get for $30,000? From personal experience as an audio tech for the last 47 years, I would suggest either a Honda or a Toyota.

[@Douglas_Blake]

You beat me to it! .... 😁

[@Munakas-wq3gp]

Or at least a full room acoustic treatment...

[@merlin5476]

Or your favourite band to pop over for a cuppa & perform in your lounge.

[@KurgerBing-p5i]

haha, yes i agree.

[@TurdFerguson101]

You're right. My tape player, in my 1988 Camry, still works, like a charm. 😉

[@Acceleronics]

I remember arguing with a high end audio shop salesman about ridiculously expensive cables for digital signals. This was after I received my Masters Degree in Electronics Engineering with a digital communications focus. He apparently lacked the ability to understand that digital signals are immune to noise in any realistic listening room scenario. His $1000 cables made from pure quantonium would not sound any different than coat hanger wire.

[@guyboisvert66]

Those peddlers are just good at manipulating people to make them buy their crap... I debunk them so often, it's laughable...

[@wolfgangfalck1250]

Wasn't that unobtainium?

[@knietiefimdispo2458]

Diesel Creek told us: it's chinesium ;- )

[@marstedt]

Bad Actor, Tom Evans, should be taken to court for his abusive conduct and damage caused.

[@fonkenful]

As much as it might matter to Mr Evans or his solicitors & accountants, the consensus of the court of public opinion has made itself rather clear, and unless we’ve all missed something, so far he/they don’t seemed to have taken and steps towards reconciliation/mitigation. If true, such inaction speaks volumes.

[@xprcloud]

can't be legislated, he sells an illusion for 30k, no law covers selling stories.

[@jamescollins6085]

I think the reputational damage is enough. No point in throwing large sums of money at a lawsuit.

[@KurgerBing-p5i]

him scratching off the names off components told me all i needed to know before all this happened LOL

[@kelvinjinxd]

It is not cheap to hire someone to sand off labels from all the opamp by hand.

[@peterlarkin762]

Definitely costs more than the 7X15 regulators and NE5532 opamps he's probably using.

[@ferdinandbardamu3945]

IMHO a 30k audio device needs to have heirloom lifespan - the thing needs to be reliable, rugged and repairable - you should be reasonably sure that there will be a way to keep it running for generations.

[@silverXnoise]

You should be so proud of the components you’re using that you wouldn’t dream of sanding off the part numbers-those should be badges of honor, far exceeding the costs for cheap clones to simply copy 1:1.

[@uni-byte]

With proper design and components, there is nothing wrong with putting the power supply in the cabinet. They do this with the most sensitive test equipment, like 7.5 digit multimeters that will accurately measure into the nano-volts. Even they don't cost $30,000.

[@joefish6091]

You need screened off areas and very EXPERT design for that. teams of EEs and juniors learning at the coat tails of the grey beards. Tektronix for example.

[@uni-byte]

@@joefish6091 Well Tommy boy is selling at an EXPERT design price. The Keysight 34470A 7.5 digit DMM sells for about $4K. Or he could get the 3458 8.5 digit DMM for $15K that will measure down to single nano-volts. He could buy one of those and see how it's done. He seems to be good at copying other's designs.

[@Munakas-wq3gp]

My personal opinion is that whatever money you have, it's best spent on speakers. Even the cheapest chinesium amps have a +-0.1db flat response and low distortion where even the most expensive speakers have serious non-linearities and bass distortion (with the possible exception of major horn loaded systems).

[@thomaslutro5560]

Agree. Though for this kind of money you could add subs in multiples, extensive acoustic treatmens, in some cases even get a house or an apartment with a larger living/listening room. As far as pride of ownership. There are some first press records I'd quite like owning too... 🙂

[@QualityRecord]

I don't get the preamp thing. And bare in mind I've built the Halfer preamp back in my tube days. The preamp amps a signal from a needle cartridge that has a 47K ohm output impedance. Basic electric noise theory assigns a level of noise to any resistance. Yes, there are other types of noise, but this 47K ohm gives a significant noise contribution that can't be filtered or compensated out. And therefore it defines a base, because it's at the source that can never get a better S/N (sign to noise ratio) and it can't be improved on. That base S/N in db has been lost in my memory somewhere in the 1970's. A well designed integrated amp is as good as a component system will ever be AND will avoid interconnect (cabling) problems. And hence the need for 1000 GBP per meter interconnects. But I don't worry about that anymore because I only play CDs and the digital stream has no source resistance noise. Enjoy the dry British humour.

[@Munakas-wq3gp]

A vinyl itself can have a max of 65db dynamic range so that sets the hard limit to any S/N of the system.

[@jjcale2288]

@Munakas-wq3gp Well, you always can expand that dynamics digitally😉

[@skald9]

What's good about hand-wired is; there is the possibility that one uses better parts, that cost a few cents more, and when it breaks down, its often easier to repair, unless the parts are sanded down.

[@GingerDrums]

That remains a hypothetical benefit. It could also be built so poorly that the cheap plastic supports cannot support the weight of a few grams of cheap components.

[@TerryClarkAccordioncrazy]

Hand wired might be better for tubes which run very hot and will mess up the PCB and the solder joints.

[@Douglas_Blake]

The down side of "hand wired" is bad solder joints. I've been in the trade since the mid-1970s and I still mess up the occasional connection.

[@TerryClarkAccordioncrazy]

@Douglas_Blake And production costs since hand wired involves manual labor and can't be automated.

[@fonkenful]

⁠​⁠@@TerryClarkAccordioncrazyRather broad generalization. There are more than a few prebuilt and kit valve amplifiers utilizing PCBs, even some of the latter partially pre populated with some of the smaller components. The quality of design / layout and thickness of conductive material that matters, and some are so skimpy on the latter that removal of a single component due to failure or “upgrading” is sufficient to delaminate the solder pads or traces. This is where long t8me repair techs will pipe in with their anecdotes.

[@st939]

You have just described any Mark Levinson preamp (or Amp) from the Middletown Connecticut era😁. I personally have an ML-7A and this thing has Apollo program build quality.

[@paulpaulzadeh6172]

I have been electronic designer for past 40 years (MSc. E.E.), designing RADAR and Laser past 20 years, have electronic as hobby since childhood too. I build Audio amplifier too, I can tell you that R&D is the most expensive part of the design, it means that it take serval years to design. When it comes to pre amplifier when the signal level is in micro level (around 40 microvolt for cartridge) it is difficult to achieve good signal level without amplifying the noise. Most engineer they increase the level of signal to achieve high value SNR (signal to Noise ratio) But real audiophile engineer should decrease the noise and not the signal level. Because when you increase signal level you increase also distortion, To decrease noise is most difficult part in all electronic design. It’s no matter if it is RADAR or preamplifier for cartridge. As end user when they open the enclosure and see each component price they think they are get robbed. They don’t see how 40 microvolt get amplified to millivolt (1000 time amplification) with lowest noise.

[@darkpatches]

Rigorous testing confirmed that the Mastergroove sounds better at $30K than $300.

[@DaveF.]

You havea citation for that claim?

[@darkpatches]

@@DaveF. No citation. This time, I'll let you off with a warning.

[@Munakas-wq3gp]

Yes, it's been scientifically proven that when listeners listened to the same amp in blind test, but were lead to believe there were two and the other amp cost 20k more than the other, the bias was overwhelmingly towards the 'expensive' amp.

[@fonkenful]

Anticipation / expectation and confirmation biases are certainly very strong forces in the presentation of listening comparisons, and the selections made.

[@copernicofelinis]

I've heard it was a double deaf experiment.

[@MrSlipstreem]

🎵Tis the season to be troll-y! Troll-la-la-la-la, troll-la-la-la.🎵🎅

[@pizzafrenzyman]

I'm not an Audio Designer nor Engineer, but I can speak to basic truths of PreAmp designs. Most important: Less is more. The fewer tricks in the signal path, the better. So an optimal PreAmp design only needs a 1. source select and 2. volume, and maybe 3. balance. Add an external power source to minimize power related artifacts from the signal path, quality circuitry, and it is done. For example: The Threshold T3i (Balanced Class A design). It does just that. No fancy gimmicks, but a simple signal path from the source to the Amps. Price in 1995 GBP? 2000 GBP

[@paulb4661]

On the other hand, at least Tommy's gear does work (when it does) and does what it's supposed to do really well, I suppose. It's obviously a poorly executed design, based on well known enginneering principles- not akin to alien technology, as suggested in the flamboyant advertorial. Now, compare that to entreq grounding boxes, bybee quantum purifiers, fancy speaker and mains cables, cable lifters, mains conditioners and alike with a price tag running into thousand and tens of thousands of pounds. I'm of course all for right to repair and freedom of information, so his attempt to hide the truth is definitely not up my alley.

[@xprcloud]

The technical idea and physics here are: when you parallel multiple sources of random noise generators such as 10 OpAmps in parallel instead of the typical single one as in most pre-amps, then you get a few db less noise because the parallel tied sources randomly cancel each other out , every opamp transistor rssistor capacitor voltage regulator all of them generate random noise.

[@conkers66]

An ideal amplifier is a piece of wire with gain.

[@rjy8960]

@@xprcloud But it's a logarithmically diminishing return. Maybe if he had 100 parallel highest-quality op-amps he may have some element of argument but is it two in this design?

[@xprcloud]

@@rjy8960 correct, that is why I said a few db, so a typical good opamp may yield S/N of 80db in a RIAA application, on a good design you may be able to get 3-6db improvement in S/N, might as well use math such as a DSP (take a noise signature from the amp noise when its idle), and subtract it, YMMV, but that is what the butcher remastering engineers do all day long on analog re-masters, hit or miss and also a matter of taste

[@russbetts1467]

If it were designed by Tim de P and made by Tim de P, I'd happily pay £30000 for it. The nearest I'll ever get to owning one of his Creations, are the pictures of his products. 'tis a great shame he's no longer with us, but he has left a legacy of quality products we Audiophiles can all appreciate. R.I.P., Tim.

[@noahbirdrevolution]

RME & Topping provide more objectively transparent preamps than most audiophile labeled products for a fraction of the price.

[@mikeg2491]

Topping just sounds clinical, cold and sterile to me though. These audio engineers purposely mix music to be as flat and boring as possible with the intention most consumer equipment will color it up breathing back life into it so I never bought into the idea their intent was for it to be heard with absolute zero distortion. That said you don’t need to pay the cost of a house for a great warm-sounding audio experience either though.

[@noahbirdrevolution]

@ Pre amps and DACs aren't supposed to have a sound. The topping d50 mk iii is a great example. As for audio engineers, producing music flat for consumer devices; that is objectively false. You can easily check frequency analysis of your favorite tracks in a free DAW.

[@niklasschmidt]

I would argue that a transparent dac like any topping is the baseline. And then one can play around with tubes or whatever to degrade the objective sound to the subjective ear.

[@noahbirdrevolution]

@@niklasschmidt Lol

[@guyboisvert66]

@@mikeg2491 Flat is not "boring", we call that Higher Fidelity... And if you think topping sounds "clinical, cold and sterile", then it seems that you love lower tier audio components that costs an arm and a leg, being Low Fi and coloring the sound! Might as well buy and EQ then...

[@A_RosnerNZ]

I'm a hifi equipment designer working for a startup manufacturer. Thought I'd use my knowledge in this area share some perspective here on pricing: For a $30k unit, typically that's the retail price including all taxes etc. Let's assume the tax is 20% So this means the actual retail price of the unit is $25k Assuming you're distributing your items through a typical retailer - dealer - distributor network, this will typically result in a total 70 point margin for the distribution and sale. This means that the dealers distributors etc make $17500 on your $25k preamp. Meaning, the manufacturer sells the unit to the distributor for $6500. There is a golden rule in electronic manufacturing that in order to survive, you have to sell your goods at an average of 2.5x their cost to you to manufacture. This allows you to make a profit as well as recover your R&D investment. This means the preamp must cost no more than $2600 to make. This includes wages, not just BoM cost. The bigger question - is the preamp "worth" $30k? Absolutely not. Allt he margins and fees and taxes gobble up the vast majority of that $30k. This is why it's difficult to be a hi-fi manufacturer.

[@MrAustrokiwi]

At $30,000 I would expect point-to-point wiring.... and not a PCB to be seen( also a complete absence of tantalum capacitors would be doubly reassuring)

[@passivate]

At 2024 AXPONA, practically every component's MSRP was either $30K or multiples of $30K. Weird, huh?

[@rienpost3145]

Pay 30K to play vinyl and you're an audiophool.

[@Munakas-wq3gp]

Pay for a 120db SNR to play a media that has a theoretical maximum of 65db dynamic range...

[@heinrichschulz3598]

Assuming you can even get the media cleanb

[@xprcloud]

@Munakas-wq3gp I guarantee you the 30k pre-amp cannot even achieve 100db S/N perhaps 80-90 when new, they didn't use shielded wiring nor the shortest wiring path, Kitchen appliances switching on/off guaranteed click in the signal

[@Ratzfourtyfour]

But you've never heard the noise with such great detail.

[@aegisofhonor]

it's even worse then that, you're paying 31K for the ABILITY to play back moving coil using probably a 15k moving coil pick up on a 20k turntable all going to a 40-50k pre-amp and a 50k+ amp and 100k speakers, you're not paying 30k to play records, your paying close to 200-250k to play records.

[@vencibushy]

Any modern op-amp will surpass what's actually necessary to amplify MC signal. Once that tiny stylus touches the groove, none of that ultra-low noise, ultra-low distortion matters.

[@wilhelmvonn9619]

The signal from any vinyl disc contains eye watering amounts of noise and distortion, and it's important to reproduce this with the greatest accuracy. Apparently.

[@vendelius]

Another Great Video.. Happy Holidays to You

[@Alo762]

Regarding the mains noise, I have many times suggested audiophools to install a motor-generator to their basement. With that, you have a clean sine wave AC voltage!

[@RupertReynolds1962]

1:33 don't forget the RIAA vinyl response curve ±0.5dB which was achievable back in 1980 :-)

[@AudioMasterclass]

My goodness… you know where to find the plus/minus character on your keyboard!

[@bonemar66]

@@AudioMasterclass If ± isn't on your keyboard, it's easy to snag off the Character Map applet in Windows.

[@cdl0]

@@AudioMasterclass RupertReynolds1962 is not alone: ±. 🙂 ©.

[@EgoShredder]

What would justify £25,000? It would have to come with its own small acoustically treated listening room building and speaker stands, listening chair etc.

[@gingernutpreacher]

25 grand i would want a whole system

[@kevinmcgrath3591]

Metaphorical lyrics................ Don't waste your money on a new set of speakers You get more mileage from a cheap pair of sneakers Next phase, new wave, dance craze, anyways It's still rock and roll to me. value or sense in a $30,000 is the ultimate contradiction, Mad Hatter stuff.

[@donwest5387]

don't forget the sunglasses

[@7000fps]

I need a new set of white wall tires! ARE you gonna drive a MIRACLE MILE ?

[@amcluesent]

Good knob feel is so important for $30k

[@AudioMasterclass]

You’re so not wrong.

[@eddiewillers1]

Yup - she had better be good for a $30k feel of my knob!

[@markrigg6623]

I spent 30 grand last night but she didn't have a knob.

[@christophmartin5381]

Tim de Paravicini , what a legend. !

[@peterlarkin762]

New to the channel, really glad to see a logical realistic breakdown of this. It's easy to mock this preamp (and may be warranted) but there's so much nuance to the discussion. End of the day who are any of us to tell someone else what to purchase. It's up to the consumer to do their homework. P.S. The acrylic case thing has been used by a lot of Hi-End UK brands. Can't remember the details but it's basically trying to avoid ground current induction eddies or somesuch proliferating around the chassis. As you said though, the internal shielding ought to be better than some leftover copper PCBs.

[@donepearce]

Top price to pay for aperfect preamp is about £100. Most of that will go on the pots which should track perfectly between the channels. The actual amplifier part should be an IC whose performance will be exemplary. I use a moving coil cartridge and my preamp, which I designed and built is a good audio IC amplfier preceded by three discrete transistors per channel in parallel. The noise performance is within a bout 0.3dB of theoretical perfect. Nonlinear distortions are essentially unmeasurable. And all audiophiles can hear is their own overactive imaginations.

[@gingernutpreacher]

What preamp can ypu by for a 100 pond that does MC i spent £65 but i use MM

[@donepearce]

@gingernutpreacher I built it

[@gingernutpreacher]

@donepearce as a kit or from scratch my dad was able to do that kind of thing but not me

[@donepearce]

@@gingernutpreacher From scratch. I'm an electronics engineer

[@DelticFilm]

One lost trick for Mr Evens, given where it is made, would be to have slate enclosure?

[@AudioMasterclass]

Comment readers might like to know that Wales is famous for slate.

[@andymouse]

That sounds awesome as slate is an outstanding material that takes a lot of skill to fabricate, and is drop dead gorgeous.

[@eddiewillers1]

Shhh! Don't give him ideas, lest he jacks the price up to $80k for the slate-cased option!

[@andymouse]

@@eddiewillers1 :)

[@BlankBrain]

For $30k, you should get a bespoke cast iron case. It should be machined and nickel plated. The gold plating option would be dependent upon current prices. Titanium or tungsten cases might be offered for higher prices. Circuit boards should be gold-plated. It should have balanced and unbalanced inputs and outputs. The design should be modular and very easy to work on. DSD inputs and outputs should be available as an optional plug-in module. Test points should be well documented and easy to access. It might include an isolated readily-available SBC, such as a Raspberry Pi with builtin diagnostics. (Pi isn't the best, but will be available and easy to replace in the future.) The SBC would likely be detached during operation, but could be switched in to verify correct operation. It might be used for the optional $2.5k wireless control. All documentation should be provided on the SBC in addition to print. The unit should be readily upgradeable. This could provide an additional revenue stream. Modular design would allow the butler or IT person to remove parts for shipping for repair/calibration. Hard shipping cases would be provided.

[@joefish6091]

John Linsley Hood, a designer par excellence, also wrote magazine articles and books for people to learn and build their own.

[@Rondoggy67]

Perfect for AudioRubes.

[@adaboy4z]

30K, I could find a complete audio system including Amp, Dac, Preamp, speakers, TT, Tape deck, CD player, cables, room treatment and streamer.

[@Blitterbug]

Loved the nod to Korzybski's General Semantics.

[@bones007able]

Look at "mend it mark" video where he fixed a supposive $25K preamp and found out it was nothing special on the inside and the preamp makers blocked his video ... only audio phools would blow that kind of $$$$ on simple 59 cent op amps

[@ShawnONeal-w5p]

@bones007able That is what this video is all about, Marks video.

[@ctbcubed]

A $30,000 preamp should come with a free car to take it home. This whole thing reminds me of the Beatles song "Come And Get It" which is probably Tom Evan's' inspiration.

[@bdg77]

There is nothing new or revolutionary in the hifi world. Same old tech with a new price tag.

[@vanman5977]

The joke about TV subscriptions cracked me up 😂

[@cunawarit]

Not for me-my primary focus is on CDs and streaming from my NAS, Qobuz, and Spotify. Vinyl is more of a side hobby, and I’m perfectly content with a Bluetooth turntable. Yes, I know, shock and horror-Bluetooth!

[@eddiewillers1]

It seems to me that the mass-market has moved away from 'quality' reproduction - now it's all digital, bluetooth, earbuds and sub-woofers - and brands like Teac, Sansui, Akai, Sharp, Marantz, NAD, (etc) have all left the market. I think that the great majority of those under aged 40 have never heard 'quality' sound reproduction - even via the mass-market gear of 40 years ago. Not only has the gear become less capable of such quality, but recording techniques, and the increasing homogeneity of popular music, has made it all less pleasant to listen to. I have a tube amp - a clone of the Dynaco ST-70 - but modded by me with NOS Mullard tubes on the phase-splitter & pre-amp stages, with NOS Sovtek KT-88 power tubes. I also modded the transformers to use Lundhal - an esoteric Swedish manufacturer. My speakers are vintage JBLs that have a 96dB/m sensitivity spec. Signal sources are a Fiio X5 mp3 player, a Dual CS505 turntable, and a Marantz CD player that's been modded with a tube output stage. All sources go through a Marantz tube pre-amp clone - the ST-70 is used as the power amp only. I'm into the rig for around $4k but I've found that advancing age means a loss of 'golden ears'.

[@guyboisvert66]

Quite the contrary. We never had access to such a high degree of fidelity for very affordable price. Just take Hypex Nilai or Purifi amp, they are much higher fidelity than any analog amp you could imagine. DACs are commodity level, a 300$ DAC is better that anything analog including source tapes! (13 bits equivalent with all enhancement circuits enabled). The problem we have today is the stupid people who mix albums and fall for "loudness war", low competence and idiots. But bad mixing and bad sound is not something new, few albums for the last century sound really good, we're talking about minority.

[@donsurlylyte]

and those over 40 cant hear the difference anymore.

[@pompeymonkey3271]

That was an excellent contribution to the discussion. :)

[@rhodaborrocks1654]

I still think the phono stage in the original Musical Fidelity "The Preamp", the Mk1 version, takes some beating even today, worth a listen if you can find one.

[@BlankBrain]

It seems silly to me that designers don't use two sets of lithium batteries to power preamps. One is charging while the other is powering the circuitry. When the voltage drops, it swaps batteries. A switching power supply could be used to charge the batteries if it is shielded and isolated. 18650 batteries are common and easily replaced. For the exotic, four golf cart batteries could be used. Two batteries in parallel would provide 24 volts, which is enough for a preamp.

[@TerryClarkAccordioncrazy]

Phono preamps are a solved problem, look at the designs by JLH and Douglas Self and Stan Curtis. All of these are as close to ideal as would be utterly inaudible and can be built for a couple hundred dollars.

[@MYNAMEIS-hz9ti]

Silver soldering. Silver coated copper ofc wire . Silver coated terminal connections. Matched components to reduce losses in the signal path. Descent hi end electrolytic caps. That's what I would expect for that kind of price tag. You would be better off buying something more vintage and make circuit modifications/ component upgrades at a fraction of the price and still have plenty change. Or if possible make your own without the fancy cnc machined casing. Shame there is only 24hrs in a day.😊

[@rabit818]

Designed by P. Starck or M. Graves? Schiit owner replied to my question in the past.

[@oo131193oo]

What i would expect from a $30,000 Amp is no integrated circuits at all but alle the circuitery build from discrete components. And some expensive housing and silver wires for the internal connections... What Tom Evans did is sell cheap DIY circuitery for absolut lunatic prices...

[@mddawson1]

You get better construction quality as well as a solid aluminium case in a $500 Chinese clone pre-amp.

[@alanmon2690]

Can an expensive pre-amp overcome my tinnitus and loss of high frequencies and other auditory distortion? For an expsive koving coil pre amp I'd expect an internal faraday cage plus a window to admire the inside gubbins,

[@coldfinger459sub0]

I’m glad to see that my DY personal preamplifier builds and amplifier and funnel stage builds that were based by the free schematics offered by Nelson Pass or Pass labs allows an even promotes everybody to build their own stereo equipment. And by judging and looking at the quality of the build of that $30,000 preamp. It now makes me feel much better that the quality and to put together and attention to detail is better than what was presented in the repair video.

[@fredashay]

What should you get for $30,000? Use it as a down payment on income property, and listen to your music on CD or FLAC! You'll get income, and your music will sound better! Since you asked, I have a retro old-school stereo system with a NAD pre-amp going into a pair of SAE A502s driving a pair of OHM Is. Not a "golden ear" system, but decent. I hardly ever listen to it any more since my younger days, though. Now, I mainly listen to my Sony Walkman (MP3, FLAC, WAV, etc.) through a pair of Sennheiser headphones. But if I had $30k to burn on retro audio gear, I'd get a refurbished McIntosh system.

[@robertschlechter4407]

I enjoyed your talk on whether a $30k preamp is justified. As an owner of the Schiit Freya+, I look for discussions on preamps. Though I am not a consumer of high-end gear, I was dreaming about the PrimaLuna EVO 300 preamp and wondered whether $3,995 is justified. Besides owning a Freya+, I have a Marantz MM7025 power amp, AR 303 speakers, and an SVS SB-2000 sub for listening to rock 'n roll and blues, as a member of the Baby Boomer generation. To me, $3,995 is more justified than $30k for a preamp when considering cost breakdowns in parts and labor but then again, I might not hear the difference the PL makes. Auditioning might provide the answer.

[@niklasschmidt]

From any objective perspective it will be worse than any non tube alternative from a decent brand. Then you may like the distortion of the tubes. The question I would ask is why the distortion of your Freya is worse than that of the Primaluna. In other words I would stick with Schiit. And as Tube distortion is very subjective how we perceive it, I would definitely listen before buying. My suggestion would be to get a neutral preamp that measures well and add a tube buffer. Then you get the best of both worlds. Schiit has some good non tube options as does topping smsl and Wiim. Wiim ultra would be my personal choice

[@robertschlechter4407]

@@niklasschmidt The distortion of my Freya is not worse than that of the PrimaLuna and since I like the distortion of tubes, I will stick with the Schiit. Thanks for giving me more insight.

[@niklasschmidt]

@@robertschlechter4407 Schiit makes good stuff. If you like the softer sound, topping just released a r2r dac that measures well and is nifty. It gives a bit analog sound. Few r2r tends to measure well. And it is not that expensive, relatively speaking. Around 1000 usd

[@jondu-sud274]

I would like something very heavy with a big knob for 5k and over

[@richtes]

At that price it should come with an escort to turn your knob

[@gerryjamesedwards1227]

If you really want to boost a tiny audio signal with as little distortion as possible, I can't help feeling that a wide-band LNA for a couple of thousand would be a better way to go. You're paying for provable performance and small production numbers, no audiophile premium added, at least.

[@MrBanzoid]

I would have thought that the PCBs would at least have nice pretty solder mask even if the intention would be to never take a peek inside.

[@ACAustralia50]

More than one input would be nice. If I could afford A$60,000 on a preamp, I would probably buy a fancy turntable with two arms for my two MC cartridges.

[@fonkenful]

Love to hear a summary of as much as the conversation with Tim de Paravacini; particulalry his reasoning behind the 18ips - aside from exclusivity. Maybe it was just Tim being Tim?

[@AudioMasterclass]

Of the two professional speeds, 15 and 30, each has its own benefits and issues. Apparently 18 was the best compromise between the two.

[@fonkenful]

@ interesting. I’d have thought some crazy rough median of say, 22.5, but, hey🤭. This reminds me that while all the tape speeds I was ever familiar with were exact doubling /halving of the next in series, that phonograph disc speeds followed a different “pattern”

[@eddiewillers1]

@@fonkenful That's because the 12" vinyl playing at 33.33rpm was designed by Columbia, whereas the 7" vinyl playing at 45rpm came from RCA .

[@fonkenful]

@ I understand that, it’s just for some reason the extra 1/3 rpm on the LP standard always struck me as just a bit weird, but I’ve never taken the time to deep dive into why. Again sticking with the various speeds that we’ve seen in various consumer tape formats over the decades, a progression like 16/32/48/64 seems would have more sense to me.

[@valleywoodstudio7345]

Sometimes I think if you’re willing to pay this amount of money for something that really only has marginal improvements - you are possibly not interested in aspects of society that maybe could benefit from your excess cash - like support of the arts for kids etc.

[@andymouse]

I wonder what Phil and the girls would make of all of this, now the truth is out and the dust begins to gently settle. I also wonder what the "Genius at work" is thinking right now. Oh well I suppose I will never know ! but he will probably find his ego is sufficiently bruised to think twice about youtube and BS.

[@vinny142]

Sadly in the audiophile world what you get for $30k is mostly a warm fuzzy feeling that what you are listening to is indeed the best you can buy. There is a reason why expensive amps look fancy and it has nothing to do with the quality of the internals and everything to do with the feeling of the person listening to it. An extremely good example of this is when Susan Boyle came onto the stage and basically the entire audience laughed at how a woman with such plain looks could possibly have a good voice. Then she opened her mouth and they collectively lost their sh*t. Audiophile equipment *is* at least 50% marketing. You don't pay fior the quality or the research, you pay for the marketing that goes into giving you the feeling that you are spending your money wisely. There is a reason why identifying numbers are filed off, that's not an Evans trademark, it's a very simple way to hide the fact that your audiophile amp actually contains parts that are literal off the shelve opamps. The key is that there is nothing bad about using cheap opamps as most of them perform better than what the human ear can detect (50khz is basically subsonic to a $7 opamp). And no I am not talking about measurements with microphones and frequency generators (the tech-bro approach) but actual listening sessions. But once a customer sees a number of on a chip they might look it up and find that it's a cheap part and start asking difficult questions, ammiright Evenas? Do a double-blind test with a dozen amps from simple hi-fi to audiophile quality, play some music that the test subjects have never heard before, and some may be able to identify the cheapest amps, but nobody will correctly identify the most expensive ones. This is because they have no references and just point out what sounds best *to them*. There is no such thing as "good audio", there is only "the audio that you like". And audiophile is *NOT* looking for the best sound. They are simply NOT. No, don't give me your arguments; they are not. What they look for is something different to what they have been listening to for the past year. It does *NOT* have to be better by any interpretation of the word, it just has to be different enough to tickle the "oh that sounds lovely" sense. It is exactly the same thing as with cars; all cars drive just fine, all cars get you from A to B safely, there is absolutely no reason to prefer one over and yet, when you get into your friends car, that car sounds just a little better, it's seats are just that little bit more comfy... Ofcourse they are not, but they are "slightly different" and that difference is interpreted by your brains as "better". Psychologically your brain simply does not accept that a $5k amp sounds as good as a $10k amp so when you do "upgrade" you go UP in price, not down. There is no reason to go up except psychology, and that is where clever people like Evans jump in. And Evans is not alone, if you examine any expensive amp you'll find that there is barely anything expensive in it, n ort is the idea behind the design anything shocking. The Audiophile world *IS* mostly marketing, full stop.

[@ShawnONeal-w5p]

But why would you need to design a phono preamp for 20-20Khz when the medium isn't capable of reproducing that range? Especially the lower frequencies are going to have to be cut from the original and the dynamic range reduced in mastering to fit in the available groove width.

[@jimdavis5230]

Well for that price I would expect silver solder and silver cables inside the unit. Also the power supply should have VDR mains spike suppression and a common mode noise mains filter.

[@Potts1966]

It's going to be hard for Tom to realise he's the bad guy here. Selling overpriced things to idiots isn't illegal, but everything that Tom Evans Audio has done since "Good Guy" Mark's video has been so bad. They have been the architects of their own doom. If I was advising Tom Evans I'd recommend eating humble pie, apologising to Mark and everyone else and hoping that enough people forgive you. Next I'd recommend some decent build quality checking. Of course you will have to drop your prices to a more reasonable level (R&D costs + Manufacturing + Marketing + a markup for profits) But if your equipment is as good as you claim, then you'll be quids in and helping more people hear the best possible representation of the music that they have.

[@andymouse]

Great comment !

[@niklasschmidt]

Though I would never buy a tekton, they did just that after having threatened a reviewer. But still too late to excuse horrid behaviour. Dcs has also threatened litigation.

[@gregcarson3444]

LOL, I can not even afford or think of a $1000 pre-amp, I am happy with my $100 pre-amp, sure it only does Moving Magnet, but it works, and low noise, so I am happy, what else do I need.

[@Matt_moran78]

Nothing else as long as you are able enjoy listening to your music the pre amp has done it's job.

[@TheRyanlehr]

30k better be the pintical of quality. Completely limited with each unit being unique with the exact owner in mind. Playing guitar i understand price on some things because we are a sick bunch. But it has to be legendary. Not plastic standoffs and scrap shielding (not pointing at a certain manufacturer)😒

[@chocholatemilkshake4799]

Streaming gonna win this battle

[@aegisofhonor]

now understand, that $31,000 "pre-amp" is not a switcher/attenuater it's very specifically a moving coil "head" amp as they often called. It's job is simply to take the very low signal input of a moving coil signal from a turn table and amplify it so your ACTUAL pre-amp can pick up the signal at a proper line level and output that signal the power amplifier and then to your speakers. Suffice to say, if you are spending THAT kind of money on just the MC head amp, you are spending quite a bit more on everything else, and it's pretty much expected you have a complete system that's well into the several hundred thousand dollar range. So that product is for the VERY high end audiophile that can afford the best of the best.

[@brendancooney9401]

🤣🤣🤣 nah, audiophool

[@niklasschmidt]

Well, as these units have competition that objectively are the best of the best that are a fraction of the cost, it is for the audiophile that wants to show that he can afford more than the next guy.

[@niklasschmidt]

When brands such as dcs and Naim are actually measures they are objectively worse in many cases than smsl, Schiit, Wiim, nad etc etc.

[@RobertSuttonOfAnacortes]

From the $30k "audio designer?" I am not graphic designer, but I would expect a website that does NOT look like a design by my two year-old (and without grammatical errors). Actually, I am generally miffed at the Stereophile magazine ads for wares by "high-end audiophile boutique manufacturers." Many of those ads look as if designed with MS Paint. If you expect to command lofty prices for your supposedly superior equipment, at least use a professional to design your ads to show how proud you are of your product.

[@matthiasmartin1975]

For 30k currency units I would expect "Swiss Made" and a name that rhymes with "shmagra".

[@peterbradburn9115]

My knackered old tinnitis ridden ears are never going to be able to hear appreciate the ratified differences in these things, but if I won the lottery would definitely be looking at picking up sone of that old big finned Alchemist kit from the 80s/90s purely because it looked cool AF to a 30 year old me 😀

[@AT-27182]

A 30K USD preamp must also perform some rather intimate services for the owner otherwise it is just a money-grab.

[@markrigg6623]

I could buy a thousand CDs and a nice CD player.

[@john8451]

Imagine what a fab collection of rare records you could buy for $30,000! 😉

[@57Hodman]

The most critical elements Audiophile's tend to ignore are the imbalance, distortion, tonality, degradation, ripple and noise of their own EARS!! All of which negate the precision and perfection of their extravagantly expensive audio equipment.

[@MrDavidBFoster]

There's no piece of audio equipment on earth that's worth more than $1,000. And I'd be willing to pay up to half of that any day of the week.

[@TomSherwood-z5l]

When he took that preamp apart I expected him to turn it upside down so the pixie dust fell out and the snake oil ran out too. But those need to be added back or it will sound like a Chinese ebay preamp.

[@eddiewillers1]

Nah - it's the magic smoke wot makes it sound gud, as any fule kno.

[@Douglas_Blake]

Straight up ... If I'm going to spend $30,000 on a phono pre-amp I'm going to expect it to include at least one Toyota Corolla. No matter how absurdly perfectionist your obsession, there is no piece of audio gear worth that kind of money.

[@birdscds47]

I would expect gold wiring.

[@jeanmichel2642]

handmade soldering on PCB is far from the best practice and can't be a marketing claim. to ensure to keep the best performance of the expensive components ypu can't rely on an operator to respect the curve temperature/time max

[@LucasAVP]

Cabinets for HiFi like Jeff Rowland and Spectral Audio

[@davidkclayton]

How about an insanely good lifetime warranty?

[@richtes]

If he gave a lifetime warranty would need to improve the build quality and design,

[@davidkclayton]

@richtes true, and he would be less likely to have the problem he has right now with other technicians exposing what kind of crap is inside. Because they would never need to go to anywhere but the manufacturer for repairs.

[@ablmedia3721]

What you should do is spend $15k on the equipment then $15k on room treatment.

[@thoso1973]

For $30,000 you should be able to get a fantastic sounding stereo system + speakers - and a fully decked 4K projector Dolby Atmos home cinema in the next room. 😉

[@cpufrost]

$30k would buy me a Rolex Sea Dweller Deep Sea Challenge that's an appreciating asset. The leftover money could be used for power amps or other gear. Sorry, more of a production/pro audio guy here.

[@Snowsea-gs4wu]

Hi Audio Masterclass, you could make a video showing MIM repairing the DENAFRIPS ATHENA with a price of around $2K with some other piece of kit, say of $25-30K. Just saying…

[@kenabi]

i can say with all honesty, even if i were a trillionaire, i wouldn't pay 30k for a preamp. even if it came with 'free _favors_ for life'. if you catch my drift. i paid $50 for a little bear p-1 tube preamp/headphone amp thats almost dead silent with clean signals run into it. line out from my ipod? zero noise. so if i have noise from a source, i'm going to be looking up the chain for the issue.

[@adamslosslessmusiccollection]

Just get 2 Apple HomePod Gen 2 for $300 a piece ($600 total) and you don’t have to waste $30k.

[@AnyoneSeenMikeHunt]

It is said 'A Fool And Their Money Are Easily Parted' I want to know how a fool gets a spare $30K in the first place. Stupid money for stupid people.

[@barneyrubble9309]

No way do you need to spend that much. The Holo Audio Serene has been measured at effectively straight wire with gain at around 2k. What more do you need? OK a decent phono stage but again, no need to oay that much. If you want bragging rights then by all means go ahead.

[@DAVID-io9nj]

You should either get significantly better objective performance, or a highly desired brand name with a solid resale value, or construction using precious metals and jewels, maybe even all three! None of these seem to apply to the preamp inspiring this video.

[@helmut3356]

Mona Lisa by Leonardo Da Vinci - worth $870 Million?

[@rudolfglaser9664]

The aspects addressed in this video bring HiEnd audio components to the playing fields or arenas of the ever so popular dick comparisons - nothing more needs to be said.

[@stormriderkaos]

Without even watching, I can safely say that for $30,000 you should get a very nice new car, an addition to your house or a shop in your back yard. NEVER an amplifier. Pure audiofoolery.

[@projectartichoke]

The best power supply for a preamp would be rechargeable batteries. Pure DC.

[@basbass429]

About powersupply, those requirements are the same for any high-end gaming-PC. At milliseconds time deliver 350+watts increases in load without ripple or any voltage drops on any powerline of the outputs. Too much ripple or sack of in voltage and the PC will instantly crash. Also those PSU's come in complete metal cases, guaranteeing stopping any electromagnetic interference into the computer case. The price of a high-end 850 watt named brand PSU, with 10+ times the power a pre-amp might ever need: 130 to 160 dollars with 5+ years warranty: But the religious audiophiles......🤣 It is this indeed just the "feelgood" factor of the audio religion.

[@sebastian_harnisch]

Nope. The requirements are significantly different. For a preamp the required power is significantly less, making non-switching power supplies (or more general power supply topologies) absolutely viable; generally speaking analog signals are much more sensitive to noise than digital signals (surprise...); power supply efficiency doesn't really matter because of the low power consumption and the fact that expensive preamps are more of a one-off luxury item where power consumption is likely to be viewed as less of an issue. And load transients are significantly more critical with PC supplies: Audio signals are basically DC and the preamp doesn't have to provide a lot of power anyway, so there is not much of dI/dt at all. Switching power supplies usually are NOT optimized for ultra low noise (although "better" power supplies often are significantly less noisy than cheaper ones). Main aspects for PC supplies are in fact *efficiency* and the capability to handle load transients, all at fairly high power levels in a compact enclosure. That being said, one can build low noise switching power supplies, which is not the easiest thing to do. Hence *that* would be an idea for a more expensive audio device, just because it might not be quite as trivial to replicate as a linear regulator (which from a technical perspective are very well suited for a preamp and in some cases for certain components in a PC; absolutely not well suited for a PC power supply).

[@basbass429]

@@sebastian_harnisch Computer PSU's are always reviewed/tested on noise and ripple because that screws up stability. A current without noise or ripple = a current without noise and ripple. On the systemboard you find a second stage power regulators/supply 12V to adjustable 0.700 - 1.500volts (latter will instantly fry the CPU), on boards made for overclocking ripple stays within less than 0,005volts (!) while pushing out 100+ Amps. And no ripple at all with constant load. Ripple crashes CPU's. Designs/components to provide super stable voltage/power is not a new technology. There is no reason at all that the PSU would cost more than $100 for a pre-amp that uses 50watts at maximum. No matter how high-end.

[@analoghardwaretops3976]

Why dig into esoteric components for "audiophile" grade equipment..what does one mean by saying.."quality" electrical & electronic components..... that is different from.. high reliability...& "burn-in screened" ,"radation- hardend" components, so you're past the "infant mortality" stage.. ..another question here.. during various testing stages..the product undergoes...,the test equipment itself..eg.... sig. gen , o'scope , uV meters , etc. themselves have internal mains operated power supplies...... ..yet they are used as such.. therefore having an external p.s. is just an easier (LAZY) option to impliment.

[@3rdaxis649]

What a joke. I hate company's like this with these ludicrous prices. That Mastergroove pre-amp, parts for value, was NOT $30,000. 3k at most. I'd rather buy a fully loaded 2024 BMW R 1300 GS Trophy bike with full riding gear, a helmet and enough gas to ride from New York to California. Are you kidding me.