How to degrade the performance of this beautiful DAC [Fosi Audio ZD3]

[@anacondodelmonte666]

If we're going to start being honest about stuff like tube or op-amp rolling I don't know how we expect those managers at hi-fi audio companies to keep feeding their children. Would love to see a wave file comparison between power cables, stabilizers, audiophile stones, etc. I bet the comment section would be a riot!

[@cunawarit]

I'm honestly not sure I can hear a difference, so I'd just leave it as is. Not having audiophile ears-or an overactive imagination-definitely has its perks!

[@nicoras8803]

You cannot roll an op-amp, it is square, we should change the term to op-amp flipping

[@Douglas_Blake_579]

Way back in my service days it was called "Chip Flipping" ... if that helps.

[@middleearthltd]

It seem that “op-amp swapping” is a common term

[@paulstubbs7678]

In America they refer to 'flipping houses', that sounds way crazier, as I'm sure a house would fall into a million bits if you ripped it out of the ground and flipped it over...... So maybe the 'flipping' term has been abused to death, lets just 'roll' with it

[@RUMBLEGO1]

Totally can hear a difference. The second one made everything sound flat. If it were a choice only between these two, then the stock opamps would remain for sure! The difference wasn't subtle (to my ears)listening with my Mirage OM9 omnidirectional speakers. Thanks for the vid as this DAC is on my radar.

[@yc-tai]

I did opamp rolling once, my mates were impressed. Keep the part where I bent the pin and straightened them out with pliers. After "rolling 2 different sets of opamps" I am totally exhausted. I enjoyed myself so much that I now practised this every birthday just to prove to myself that I'm alive and kicking. Cheers!

[@AudioMasterclass]

Who hasn’t bent a pin ever? Best to give them a little squeeze before insertion. Doesn’t get better than this.

[@VintageGearMan]

A bit of Deoxit Gold on tube pins equals zero bad connecetions also. I live by it. ​@@AudioMasterclass

[@VintageGearMan]

Connections. Sorry on spelling.😊

[@VintageGearMan]

Anyone that does not appreciate these vids should give it another try. It is just the best! I am a huge fan.

[@MrAnon-g7m]

Well, I bought this today and I switched the old pants in it from the ones that came in it the standard. I didn't think the ones that came bundled with her nowhere near as good they were lacking in depth and presentation so I stuck the original ones that it came with back in working perfectly again I'm quite happy with the way it sounds as it is. I don't think there's much extra that can be done reallyif people want better sound they probably be better off buying better set of speakers or better amplifier.

[@AudioMasterclass]

Better speakers, all the way.

[@primalscream46]

A friend of mine has a Geshelli dac and he has a few different op amps etc. there is drastic changes in sound.

[@avalanche9142]

Could you please advise me on the following question: I have a Fiio BTA30 DAC/AMP (bought for my PC) but noticed that when I connect my TV optical output to it and then from it to my A/V receiver, the sound quality improves noticeably compared to when my TV is directly connected to the A/V Receiver. My question is whether it is worth to spend on getting a good DAC/AMP to use between my TV and A/V receiver (which is an old Yamaha RX-477), or if I upgrade my A/V receiver to a much newer and better model, I would get the same quality and would not need any DAC/AMP in the middle? In other words, does a newer and better A/V receiver naturally provide better DAC/AMP that using an external one would be totally unnecessary?

[@scotsirish4194]

When are the next generation op amps going to become available as the excellent TI models have been around for so long now ?

[@bengeorgeschannel6568]

If my degraded ears don't deceive me, it looks as though an album of relaxing unboxing music is on its way! If my - also degraded - memory serves, the 741 was originally designed to do bits of the maths in late analogue computers, so that it worked quite well for audio applications might be seen as a useful fringe benefit.

[@AudioMasterclass]

Very true regarding the 741. Also interesting is that CMOS logic chips can handle audio - I've had fun with that in the past but I wouldn't rate it for quality. BTW, 'Irritating Unboxing Music' is already out - davidmellor.bandcamp.com/album/irritating-unboxing-music and streaming.

[@pascalmartin1891]

An uneducated guy here: I feel like the 4580 sounds has some reverb (like in an empty room), which I do not hear in the 49720 sound. Maybe I should not have drinked coffee before.. 🙂

[@AudioMasterclass]

The original audio, which is the same for both opamps, is from Abbey Road Studio 2. Since there was only me and my assistant in there it is more empty than it would normally be for a recording. If one opamp makes this more apparent then this is an interesting difference if it’s what you hear.

[@flex-cx9bi]

I hear the same thing and once detected it's not that hard to hear the difference.

[@Yiannis2112]

@@AudioMasterclass Yep, its plenty noticable. At first listen, that is. Not after listening 5 or ten times to it and trying to find any differences. The JRC has more reverb, it sounds more airy. Not like the reverbaration of an enormous empty room, but a sizeable empty one. All that with a pair of 350 euro Senheiser Momentum 2 headphones, the headphone amp of a 1995 Kenwood KA2060 amp and a 100 euro Khadas Tone Board dac and cheap cables.

[@primalscream46]

I also heard the same thing on the very first listen. The 1st sounded like an echoey room, the second lost that and the voice sounded more precise, and seems to have more bottom end. I think the proper way would be to put your favorite music on and determine it that way. What sounds better for just speaking, you may not prefer for music.

[@kineahora8736]

I felt the 4580 sounded “fuzzy” relative to the stock op amps-they are both cheap cheap cheap. The NE 5532 I think is better than both of those and also very cheap. I bought some muses02 though. I liked the sound of them better in video comparisons I heard online… they are about $20 per op amp. The sparkos, which are quite expensive at over $40 per op amp, are the best in some products that are dull or flat sounding, but not as good as the muses02 in my opinion in products that are already very bright and punchy sounding…

[@joenovak6393]

I received 10/25 my Pre-order ZD3 and also purchased from Fosi (20% off) Sparkos Labs SS3602. Waiting for XLR/RCA cables and iFi iPower X and will be burning the stock chips 1st. Also got in 3 weeks ago Geshelli Labs DAYZEE and what a DAC.

[@jazzandcocktails7]

Did you get three 3602s? I just got my ZD3. I have 2 3602s. I will not be using the balanced out for now and am wondering if I can just swap the single ended op amp or need to change all three?

[@howmit6361]

Better is better. SparkoS is better. It also may be a perfect example of diminishing returns. I don't have a ZD3 to play with, but I would give the SparkoS a go if I did. I would also invest in or build an abx switch. Or some means to compare the output using my laptop or PC. Is there an easy way to do that? My ears are no longer bat-like and the brain is remarkable at adapting to changes in sound. The rest of the system has to be resolving enough to reproduce the change as well. What you hear with headphones may not present with loudspeakers.

[@Exgol2005]

Sonic change may NOT be attributed to one component (DAC or opamp in this case). Shouldnt other gears in our signal chain be considered? Are they "sensitive" enough to the tweaks?

[@buckaroobonsi555]

I can hear a difference but did not think either sounded disturbing or bad. The difference was so minor. That said I liked the sound of the stock opamp best.

[@artysanmobile]

As it should be. Chosen and applied for ideal behavior WITH the surrounding circuit.

[@jcooljensen]

Hi, did you find a reasonably priced Audio Analyzer? Br. JCJ

[@AudioMasterclass]

There are QuantAsylum products that are not unreasonably priced. I would have to add the cost of a Windows computer. I'm not ruling this route out, but I don't have any current plans.

[@jcooljensen]

@@AudioMasterclass Great, exactly what I had in mind, I have the QA401 (now obsolete), running on an old Thinkpad x220, been using it a lot while designing Balanced MC/MM and complete preamps.

[@rotaks1]

This was fantastic!

[@AudioMasterclass]

Thank you. However I'm British - "Quite good" would be praise enough 😊

[@bobkitchin8346]

I'm amazed that someone can claim hearing a difference between op amps, unless something else is wrong. I suspect what might be happening is that the better low noise, high slew rate, wide bandwidth op amps might be oscillating up in the 10 MHz region at a low level. This can happen if the op amp is driving a load with too much capacitance. Even a few hundred pf can cause them to oscillate. At audio frequencies, the MHz oscillation would cause increased distortion and noise. Since the cabling capacitance and the load capacitance of the next amp are uncontrolled, this is a real possibility. Using lower cost op amps with lower bandwidth aren't as likely to oscillate at high frequencies. This might be the reason swapping out op amps in some cases improves performance.

[@ac81017]

Abbey road studio 2, very nice indeed!! Does Abbey road still use B&w 800 series monitors?

[@AudioMasterclass]

Yes, according to their website and, BTW, so do I.

[@paulhutson5664]

I can hear a difference, even on my lg to. The low vocal frequencies on the first clip sound bloated, resulting in a sense of disjointedness between the high and low frequencies of the voice. The second clip keeps the coherence of a single voice. I wondered if this might be an anomaly of utube, but the second pair of samples exhibit the same characteristics. I was surprised to see such a small difference in the waveform considering the marked difference in sound. I’d like to request that you do a test of sound reproduction of your/any mobile phone, and test to see if an external DAC offers anything?

[@AudioMasterclass]

It might be interesting to compare a £9 DAC with a £1000+ DAC, both of which I have. Guess which one I use more often.

[@flex-cx9bi]

What if I tell you that what you think is bloated sound acutally is reverb from standing waves of the room the recording was made... Would thet make sence to you? Room reverb adds some low frequency harmonics to the recording. Too my ears 4580 do a better job than 49720 letting those reverbs through to your headphones.

[@paulhutson5664]

Interesting theory about standing waves. A comparison against a “reference” quality DAC might answer that question.

[@Grooverski]

Are you saying that cheap audio man reviews stuff without even plugging it in? 😂 Sometimes it seems that most of those rapid fire reviewers do that.

[@AudioMasterclass]

I don't know. You should probably ask Nigel.

[@LiquidEyes100]

Cheapaudioman reviews stuff without testing it in a treated room. That's the same as "reviewing stuff without even plugging it in" in my book!

[@RaymondReeves-db8dr]

Yes. I can hear a difference. .

[@marxman00]

Obviously someone needs to make a system that inserts youtube into our systems

[@AudioMasterclass]

Quick! Patent that idea before someone makes it public.

[@RaymondReeves-db8dr]

@@marxman00 The answer is that you need to have a system that can reproduce the sound in HiDef. Nobody needs to insert youtube into your system per se., just get some decent equipment that can already do it. Some of the sound quality of KZbin's content is outstanding.

[@doogee6157]

When it comes to Ne5532's Texas instruments sound better then JRC imho.

[@johnbravo7542]

You can hear the difference,the second sounded a smidge thinner,the first sounded slightly fuller,I'm listening from my Logitech external computer speakers.

[@ac81017]

Nigel? What happened to Audio Phil?😢

[@AudioMasterclass]

Phil’s busy hardwiring the switch out of circuit so that it doesn’t degrade his resolution.

[@petertreyde3212]

Yes, I could definitely hear the degradation caused by the switch!😂​@@AudioMasterclass

[@jimdavis5230]

Is the power supply that comes with this dac switch mode or linear type?

[@AudioMasterclass]

Switching, as one might expect.

[@jimdavis5230]

@@AudioMasterclass Okay thanks for that information. I have found that using a linear power supply noticeably improves the sound of dacs. However, I have noticed another improvement by using a mains noise filter to supply the PSU. I used a toroidal bifilar wound RF noise filter and a spike suppressor using VDR's. Also I found that the mains earth is full of RF noise so make sure the mains earth is not connected to the coaxial braids of the audio connection leads. Sadly the mains supply in the UK has become full of noise due to switch mode power supplies and triac controlled switching used in many devices.

[@buckaroobonsi555]

When have you seen any product Fossi Audio makes come with a linear supply? Switching power supplys get a bad rep because everyone is using the cheapest switchers they can get their hands on. It is true all switchers are noisy depending on what you are using them for but their switching freq. can be manipulated a lot and filtering can be added so that you never know they are there in the circuit. It is another thing all together if someone is running ameuter radio gear nearby and picking up your noise. Solar Power Inverters are terrible for this. Copper and steel are expensive, heavy, and bulky just about everything we use would cost 2X to 4X as much as if they all used linear power supplies. The real problem is that bean counters at every company want to skimp on everything so you end up with a switcher or linear power supply that barley meets the needs of the gear with no head room to spare often and it shows. Linear power supplies are not magic!

[@AudioMasterclass]

It is another interesting opamp spec how much they reject mess on the power rails.

[@jimdavis5230]

@@AudioMasterclass Yes correct but only if the op amps are powered from a split centre zero supply from a transformer with a centre tapped secondary. That makes the noise on the power rail 180 degrees out of phase with each other. Therefore any supply noise cancels out. Many dacs have a power separate power supply that is not a balanced split supply. They use electronic means to create a balanced dc supply where the noise on each rail is in phase and therefore doesn't cancel out. The supply ripple and noise rejection of an op amp can only be realised when using a true split supply.

[@kappandrew1]

In my humble Krapp opinion… there are fat-cats getting rich off of what people imagine they hear (cables, turntables, cartridges, etc.). While there are honest products that provide an improved experience, most do not. This is one of those instances (where many products don’t do jack… and a few do).

[@marxman00]

At many popints I thought you were describing women.. the parameters are very similar.. dinner being the most remarkable output of said "device"

[@artysanmobile]

The ‘spec’ crowd generally knows nothing about said specs. Once they learn more = good, the die is cast and they will choose a part based on that simple, meaningless metric. After making a dozen or so such ‘decisions’ they can easily end up with the wrong part, due to their limited understanding. Simply swapping an OpAmp is not a valid move. Attached components need to change with it and virtually no one will do so. If a brand can be trusted at all, they can be trusted to choose an ideal component to show their product in the best light, especially if doing so adds close to nothing to the product’s cost. Ideal OpAmps are quite inexpensive so there is no incentive to skimp on this part.

[@flex-cx9bi]

Both sound compressed and don't let through the ambience. 4580 sounds slightly better to me since I can hear a tiny bit of room ambience of the speaker. Less so with the other Op-amp with the better specs (more feedback). I can hear that the recording occurs in a slightly reverbant room, and I think a non feedback tube circuit will reveal that reverbant ambience to the fullest. Op-amp more or less kills that ambience with negative feedback. Less so with 4580. 49720 sounds more like standing in a sound proof booth during recording.

[@artysanmobile]

🤦🏽‍♂️

[@artysanmobile]

So much nonsense. You have no idea what you’re talking about.

[@flex-cx9bi]

@@artysanmobile Keep listening until you hear it too. If you have the time: kzbin.info/www/bejne/eJ6zf4KMj7mGqq8 ALL op-amps are a dead end compared to a good discrete circuit, but there are differences between op-amps. To my ears 4580 is the most musicaly transparent of these five under test. Keep those recorded harmonics intact as recorded. Don't mess them up with a bad op-amp and a lots of feedback.

[@artysanmobile]

@@flex-cx9bi I see you know nothing of the topic being discussed. Just a couple of common tropes. OpAmps far exceed the capabilities of the most carefully designed discrete circuitry. They are, after all, idealized and perfected discrete circuitry themselves. It’s not even close. Your comment is the equivalent to “a computer processor chip could never compare to 5 million individual logic chips.” You should learn more before making ridiculous statements.

[@flex-cx9bi]

@@artysanmobile I know a bit. Been in the business 40 years designing audio electronics so I have tested a LOT of different topologies. Op-amp is a far cry of perfect out of my point of view. Actually they are pretty bad in general and basically all of them have a sound character of their own. Had som success with AD825 when driven by a low impedance, but that was about it. Have no desire to start a fight with you so lets say we have different experiences and different point of view regarding what sounds good and what doesn't. Thanks Peter. Another gentleman from the business not favouring op-amps: kzbin.info/www/bejne/b3nZq5RtmqZ1mKM

[@andywason3414]

Pure unadulterated nonsense, (and he knows it!). Anyone not listening to this through the original FOSI equipment (and op amps) has no hope of differentiating audio quality, as you are hearing it through whichever DAC is in your computer, tv, phone or hifi, not to mention whatever limitations of bandwidth, sample rate, bit depth, file compression, dynamic compression and other processing that youtube puts on the signals.

[@AudioMasterclass]

Yes I understand this line of reasoning. Best not to do anything, it's safer that way. I believe that my viewers are capable of making their own decisions on what they can and cannot hear. Clearly you would prefer to deny them that. It must be nice being so superior.

[@LEEKING2005]

Obviously they're different, and it's not at all subtle, both from the sinewave picture and from the audio in your case. But in reality not every system can be as transparent and clearly show good enough different so it often considered as snake oil. I would not get into the detail but it had something to do with the speaker sensitivity and cable quality. The quality of listener's system, lack of technical knowledge and youtube platform's compression also not helping either in most cases. The cheaper op amp give a boxy distortion that many people would refer as warm and tube like sound, while the original pricey op amp sound like a clean amp that have less distortion and faster in transient. If you thinking it as a microphone, the original would be akin to a medium or small diaphragm and the extra would be akin to a large diaphragm tone. If you thinking it as an electric guitar, the original op amp is akin to a clean amp and the swapped op amp akin to an overdrive. As you can clearly see in both the microphone and electric guitar scenarios, cleaner sound and lower distortion doesn't always mean better production quality. In the hand of professional, it's a difference they will confidently abuse for variety and creativity purposes. But in a normal, non-engineer situation, with most of them don't have the knowledges, equipment, artistic taste, efforts and training to really making those to their full potential by proper design, you can just pick whatever makes you happy or according to the price tag. I mean that's really what differentiate between normal people and an engineer right? Normal people just need to know which button on the remote control do what things on the tv. Like switching channel and adjusting volume, they don't really need to know about how things work in the technical or fundamental level.

[@leetaylor13]

Of course we could tell the difference between your wav files. One had a light blue background and the other had a lime green background.

[@AudioMasterclass]

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. Betty and Debbie taught me that laugh.

[@Seiskid]

Its never going to sound different with opamps unless something catastrophic has gone wrong - high frequency power rail oscillation - or a bjt opamp dampening down a high impedance source (when say, you should have used a fet opamp instead). That said voice is not a great test. You need music with a lot of going on to tell things apart. This is because; - a) voice is too narrow to highlight frequency response problems; - b) any subtle harmonic distortion won't be noticed (it may actually make you sound "nicer") whereas mild distortion on busy music will then generate intermodulation distortion and you'll definitely hear that and it won't be nice. This is why cheap valve amps can sound so good on acoustic or orchestral music and yet fall apart with heavy rock or edm.

[@rabit818]

I need to train my dog to be be an audiophile with discriminating taste.

[@AudioMasterclass]

You jest, but who knows what abilities audiophile dogs might have? They could certainly hear CRT flyback and warn an older human engineer. One bark for good, two barks for bad. kzbin.info/www/bejne/j2XOqKadZd9kaLM

[@thomasalexand]

​@@AudioMasterclass I might be wrong, but I think you're barking up the wrong tree here.

[@jbarelds78]

It would have been nice if both WAV files were provided so we could do a proper ABX test with Foobar and the ABX Comparator plugin. No offense to anyone, but claims about hearing a difference from this YT clip seem pretty worthless to me.

[@obsprisma]

Why don't they put better op amps in it from the start? Now i have to do it myself by screwing the damn thing open to replace the op amps myself. I never buy things that can sound better but the manifacturer doesn't put the best things in it themselfs.

[@AudioMasterclass]

The more highly specified opamps were installed already. As I said towards the end of the video, you can use this DAC as supplied.

[@obsprisma]

@@AudioMasterclass I probably haven't heard that because it is already almost 12 am. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

[@buckaroobonsi555]

There is nothing wrong with the op amps they have installed. Do you expect them to put in op amps that cost more than the units retail price like Sparkos?? Do not be so cheap or so lazy. No one is forcing you to purchase their product you could purchase a more expensive unit that might come with op amps more to your liking. Do not be so lazy not like you are going to devote a day to making a wooden spoon and wooden bowl to eat with get over it! An allen key and a nut driver big deal. They where kind enough to give you sockets so you do not even need to desolder and resolder anything! Man-Up already!

[@obsprisma]

@@buckaroobonsi555 Sorry if i offended you. Good Lord. But screwing things open which i bought new is not really one of my favorite things. But lucky for me the uploader gave me a much nicer comment and cleared things out a way better without calling me lazy or cheap.

[@Douglas_Blake_579]

I've been asking that question since the start of this chip flip fad. If there is a better part... put it in at the factory. The thing is that ... this is audio ... it's low frequency low level stuff, it's not that demanding... quite often the "better" chip brings no improvement whatsoever. But still these guys just have to tamper with everything.

[@paulpaulzadeh6172]

I have this , not so good sound 😢

[@AudioMasterclass]

It would help if you could describe the problem(s).

[@IAdryan]

4580 sounds brighter to me. more harsh. the other one i feel the need to increase volume.